Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar.
Jonathan Johns
Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar
Jasmyn on this message board has made a post to several of my original
post informing people that my writings may not reflect that of
Eckankar. Then she gives a link to the official Eckankar website.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/232e8e0fc119524d#
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/3f61288d23a386a0#
I don't think it was necessary for her to do that because I believe
that people reading this message board are smart enough and
spiritually aware enough to make their own decisions about what is
posted here. But that actually goes along with Eckankar's spiritual
philosophy of "doing your thinking for you." Eckankar doesn't tolerate
people who are able to think for themselves and express their own
opinion. That is a characteristic that is very cult-like.
I would also like to point out that I never posted "disclaimers" on
the Eckist's posts on this message board warning people that members
of Eckankar could be giving an inaccurate view of Eckankar.
But just in case people need some links that give information that is
independent of Eckankar's story line as put forth by the members of
Eckankar on this Google Group who seem to feel that this their own
private message board, I thought that I should give people some
alternative links.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar.
Consult these links:
Yahoo Group ET (EckankarTruth)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eckankartruth/
Yahoo Group ESA (EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/
The Unauthorized Eckankar(tm) Page
http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/
Links to David Lane's entire book are here. Scroll down the page a
bit.
Eckankar, A Spiritual Hoax
http://truthbeknown66.stormpages.com/
Surviving The Cult Eckankar
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/
A David Lane website
http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/ekdebates.htm
Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker"
http://www.onepublishinginc.com/
The author of one of Eckankar's books leaves, then speaks out after
Eckists "outed him"
"Rosetta Stone of God"
http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=608&page=1
Jasmyn
------
Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, by Doug Marman:
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialogue_TOC.htm
------
Rich?
> Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar
I agree. That was included in Jasmyn's statement.
> Jasmyn on this message board has made a post to several
(Correction of exaggeration: only two, and yet, you have responded
to that how many times now? About 9?)
> of my original
> post informing people that my writings
(Correction anyone's)
> may not reflect that of Eckankar.
You were not named. It was a general statement, which is why I agreed with
your first sentence. However, I agree that it's a no brainer that it is an
accurate characterization of you. I have asked you several times to back up
your claims and you can't do it. What else do you imagine the very rare
newbie thinks when they see such requests and you fail to supported your
allegations over and over? Most everyone else here already knows what's
going on, and are familiar with your issues.
I know that this is new for you, but there has been a long line of those
like you who have marched through this newsgroup. These links which have
been collected here over the years pretty much cover and explain the
different behaviors and motivations:
http://bit.ly/dmuP72
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm
http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf2/disagree.htm
http://faculty.pepperdine.edu/dlevy/content/PLD.pdf
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm
http://www.neuereligion.de/ENG/Wilson/
http://www.ocfoundation.org/
http://www.fmsfonline.org/
I'd say that these are good for everyone to review for self examination as
well as to understand why there are sometimes some ridiculous allegations
about Eckankar, ECK Masters and Eckists.
> Then she gives a link to the official Eckankar website.
Yes. Sometimes Eckists, and definitely apostates do not represent Eckankar.
The leader of Eckankar is the final word and the official Eckankar Web site
presents that. People can interpret and perceive things differently, but it
the Living ECK Master who is the current accurate source of what Eckankar
teaches.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/232e8e0fc119524d#
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/3f61288d23a386a0#
>
> I don't think it was necessary for her to do that because I believe
> that people reading this message board are smart enough and
> spiritually aware enough to make their own decisions about what is
> posted here.
Perhaps, in most cases, which is worse for you. Seriously, you are
exemplifying exactly what you are arguing against.
> But that actually goes along with Eckankar's spiritual
> philosophy of "doing your thinking for you."
Most people are smart enough to recognize that you keep talking about your
dysfunction as if it applies to Eckist in general, which it does not.
> Eckankar doesn't tolerate
> people who are able to think for themselves and express their own
> opinion. That is a characteristic that is very cult-like.
This is typical of the kind of belief that many apostates fall into.
(See links listed above)
> I would also like to point out that I never posted "disclaimers" on
> the Eckist's posts on this message board warning people that members
> of Eckankar could be giving an inaccurate view of Eckankar.
LOL! You just did! Prior to this you called us fear mongers, brainwashed,
cultists, deluded, etc. etc., and that Eckankar puts curses on people.
Beyond all that you have shown us
- You condemned and imagined all kinds of wild things about someone
_you_ admittedly had no clue or idea about
- You are a conspiracy theorist
- You knew almost nothing about actual running of even local Eckankar
- Have huge issues with feeling betrayed
- Have the personality of a "follower"
- Suffers from codependency
- Have a touch of paranoia
- Have serious anger issues
Given all that, do you really imagine any but another apostate could give
much credence to your barrage of posts here? Think about it. Consider
getting yourself in order and balanced first, and then come back and tell us
about you mistakes.
> But just in case people need some links that give information that is
> independent of Eckankar's story line as put forth by the members of
> Eckankar on this Google Group who seem to feel that this their own
> private message board, I thought that I should give people some
> alternative links.
We've seen those dead horse issues for years. If there is anyone new here
please speak up now or write me privately at deadmail @ inorbit.com Or
write Jonathan in private if you like. I and I hope Jonathan will tell how
many we heard from.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar.
>
> Consult these links:
>
> Yahoo Group ET (EckankarTruth)
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eckankartruth/
>
> Yahoo Group ESA (EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous)
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/
>
> The Unauthorized Eckankar(tm) Page
> http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/
> Links to David Lane's entire book are here. Scroll down the page a
> bit.
>
> Eckankar, A Spiritual Hoax
> http://truthbeknown66.stormpages.com/
>
> Surviving The Cult Eckankar
> http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/
>
> A David Lane website
> http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/ekdebates.htm
>
> Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker"
> http://www.onepublishinginc.com/
>
> The author of one of Eckankar's books leaves, then speaks out after
> Eckists "outed him"
> "Rosetta Stone of God"
> http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=608&page=1
Better yet, most every assertion and question that has been presented at
these sites, and in those books, have gone through a years long dialog
process of sorting out fact from fiction. That vetting cumulated in an
online book http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm and later in an
even better printed version.
http://spiritualdialogues.com/thewholetruth.html Of course you can wander
around all those sites of disgruntled people, but these books cover every
issue in one source.
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Etznab
> Jonathan Johns wrote:
> > Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar
>
> I agree. That was included in Jasmyn's statement.
>
> > Jasmyn on this message board has made a post to several
>
> (Correction of exaggeration: only two, and yet, you have responded
> to that how many times now? About 9?)> of my original
> > post informing people that my writings
>
> (Correction anyone's)
>
> > may not reflect that of Eckankar.
>
> You were not named. It was a general statement, which is why I agreed with
> your first sentence. However, I agree that it's a no brainer that it is an
> accurate characterization of you. I have asked you several times to back up
> your claims and you can't do it. What else do you imagine the very rare
> newbie thinks when they see such requests and you fail to supported your
> allegations over and over? Most everyone else here already knows what's
> going on, and are familiar with your issues.
>
> I know that this is new for you, but there has been a long line of those
> like you who have marched through this newsgroup. These links which have
> been collected here over the years pretty much cover and explain the
>
> I'd say that these are good for everyone to review for self examination as
> well as to understand why there are sometimes some ridiculous allegations
> about Eckankar, ECK Masters and Eckists.
>
> > Then she gives a link to the official Eckankar website.
>
> Yes. Sometimes Eckists, and definitely apostates do not represent Eckankar.
> The leader of Eckankar is the final word and the official Eckankar Web site
> presents that. People can interpret and perceive things differently, but it
> the Living ECK Master who is the current accurate source of what Eckankar
> teaches.
>
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/th...
>
> Better yet, most every assertion and question that has been presented at
> these sites, and in those books, have gone through a years long dialog
> process of sorting out fact from fiction. That vetting cumulated in an
> even better printed version.http://spiritualdialogues.com/thewholetruth.htmlOf course you can wander
> around all those sites of disgruntled people, but these books cover every
> issue in one source.
>
> Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Quote:
"Yes. Sometimes Eckists, and definitely apostates
do not represent Eckankar. The leader of Eckankar
is the final word and the official Eckankar Web site
presents that. People can interpret and perceive
things differently, but it the Living ECK Master who
is the current accurate source of what Eckankar
teaches."
My Comments:
Who wrote that paragraph? An Eckist? And what
"Eckankar" were they talking about?
Consider the following:
And this is what the path of ECK is all about.
Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about
walking your path to God. Because your path is
not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's
OK. Because when God made you, he made a
unique being. You are Soul. You are Soul. That's
the identity behind your name. Behind your physical
form. Behind the cummingness of your face. You are
made in God's image! And it's an image of Divine love.
But remember, you are made in God's image. So is
your neighbor. And so am I. And so the respect that
you would give to the one you most love. And when I
say the one you most love, it can be a person, animal,
place or thing. Whoever you give the most love to, if
you can have that same love for yourself. Then you
are recognizing yourself as this holy, divine light of
God, that you are. That's what the path of ECK is
about.
- ECK Summer Festival, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
Saturday, June 27, 1998
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fISUxkDbW-Q
Harold Klemp, How to Survive Spiritually in Our Times,
pp. 164–65
Does anybody remember the words "... by it's own
path" in the introductory Eckankar materials?
Etznab
Rich?
> On Sep 12, 5:09 pm, "Rich?" <R...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Quote:
>
> "Yes. Sometimes Eckists, and definitely apostates
> do not represent Eckankar. The leader of Eckankar
> is the final word and the official Eckankar Web site
> presents that. People can interpret and perceive
> things differently, but it the Living ECK Master who
> is the current accurate source of what Eckankar
> teaches."
>
> My Comments:
>
> Who wrote that paragraph?
You quoted me!?
> An Eckist?
You Know I am an Eckist. Why feign ignorance?
> And what "Eckankar" were they talking about?
They? Why be mealy mouthed and not speak to me? Why play dumb?
Did you really not understand, "The leader of Eckankar is the final word and
the official Eckankar Web site presents that." Do you disagreeing with that?
Why be vague?
Yes, I remember that very well. "It's" isn't referring to Eckankar. Soul on
the path of ECK is in a different realm. He wasn't referring to the
organization like I was. I know the difference between the Eckankar
organization, the teachings of Eckankar, the Living ECK Master, and what the
quote you provide was talking about: myself as eternal Soul. "recognizing
yourself as this holy, divine light of God". As Soul my path preceded and
will exceed Eckankar. Irrespective of my path, Harold is the final and sole
authority for Eckankar. Do you get my point now?
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
TianYue
> Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar
>
> Jasmyn on this message board has made a post to several of my original
> post informing people that my writings may not reflect that of
> Eckankar. Then she gives a link to the official Eckankar website.
>
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/th...
>
> I don't think it was necessary for her to do that because I believe
> that people reading this message board are smart enough and
> spiritually aware enough to make their own decisions about what is
> posted here. But that actually goes along with Eckankar's spiritual
> philosophy of "doing your thinking for you." Eckankar doesn't tolerate
> people who are able to think for themselves and express their own
> opinion. That is a characteristic that is very cult-like.
>
> I would also like to point out that I never posted "disclaimers" on
> the Eckist's posts on this message board warning people that members
> of Eckankar could be giving an inaccurate view of Eckankar.
>
> But just in case people need some links that give information that is
> independent of Eckankar's story line as put forth by the members of
> Eckankar on this Google Group who seem to feel that this their own
> private message board, I thought that I should give people some
> alternative links.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Eckists who post here may not be giving an accurate view of Eckankar.
>
> Consult these links:
>
> Yahoo Group ET (EckankarTruth)http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Eckankartruth/
>
> Yahoo Group ESA (EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous)http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/
>
> Links to David Lane's entire book are here. Scroll down the page a
> bit.
>
> Eckankar, A Spiritual Hoaxhttp://truthbeknown66.stormpages.com/
>
> Surviving The Cult Eckankarhttp://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/
>
>
> Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker"http://www.onepublishinginc.com/
>
> The author of one of Eckankar's books leaves, then speaks out after
> Eckists "outed him"
No, there is little accurate information about eckankar that the
eckists here will supply to inquirers. And of course, they always
refer people to Doug Marman's extremely deceptive book that
camouflages the truth about eckankar as the be-all answer to criticism
of eckankar.
This has been going on for years. Most of the more astute and less
gullible members have left by now, and the ones still following are
more or less hopelessly entrenched.
The participants on a.r.e. haven't changed for years, and consist of a
very small handful of hangers on.
The attack dog[s] (is there more than one, or does it still pretty
much consist of that same aggressive fellow by the name of Rich?)
still persist with the same old jargon, the same old threats, the same
ad hominems (still using the references to alleged dysfunctions, Rich?
And the medieval usage of the word "apostates"? Still???), the same
tired epithets and insults, as if they hold the belief that insulting
people somehow makes eckankar look better, while failing to realize
they are only making things worse for eckankar's already tarnished
image.
It's funny that my spell check still doesn't include the word
"eckankar" in its vocabulary, so I keep creating typos when I spell
it. Jeeez, what that that tell you?
Rather sad, but that's the way it is here.
Ken
>
> No, there is little accurate information about eckankar that the
> eckists here will supply to inquirers. And of course, they always
> refer people to Doug Marman's extremely deceptive book that
> camouflages the truth about eckankar as the be-all answer to criticism
> of eckankar.
>
> This has been going on for years. Most of the more astute and less
> gullible members have left by now, and the ones still following are
> more or less hopelessly entrenched.
>
> The participants on a.r.e. haven't changed for years, and consist of a
> very small handful of hangers on.
>
> The attack dog[s] (is there more than one, or does it still pretty
> much consist of that same aggressive fellow by the name of Rich?)
> still persist with the same old jargon, the same old threats, the same
> ad hominems (still using the references to alleged dysfunctions, Rich?
> And the medieval usage of the word "apostates"? Still???), the same
> tired epithets and insults, as if they hold the belief that insulting
> people somehow makes eckankar look better, while failing to realize
> they are only making things worse for eckankar's already tarnished
> image.
>
> It's funny that my spell check still doesn't include the word
> "eckankar" in its vocabulary, so I keep creating typos when I spell
> it. Jeeez, what that that tell you?
>
> Rather sad, but that's the way it is here.
>
Back for another mud-throwing fest, eh? Well have at it and hope you
have a good time. I have been wondering something though. How *do* you
manage to get all that mud up there on that so very high pedestal you
inhabit?
TianYue
How did I find the mud? Oh, that's easy. I collected it all as it was
tossed my way by eckankar and it's "swordsmen of God."
If the mud smells familiar, that's because it is your own.
Tian Yue
Jonathan Johns
I have been researching some things. I have been reading a lot about
the ego. I realized two things:
1. The reason it took me ten years to leave Eckankar is because my ego
couldn't handle the truth about Eckankar. I (my ego) couldn't handle
the fact that I was THAT wrong about believing all of Twitchell's
lies, etc. That I was THAT wrong about just looking the other way
regarding Twitchell's curses.
The other thing I realized is:
2. The reason why some members of Eckankar go so ballistic when people
criticize Eckankar is because their ego is being seriously offended.
Their reaction is "How dare you say that I am wrong!" It's all due to
their ego being knocked completely off kilter by people saying that
their beliefs in Eckankar are flawed. It is very interesting because
many of these people are probably fifth initiates. And by Eckankar's
definition, fifth initiates should really no longer have ego issues
since according to Eckankar they are now established on the soul plane
which is above the level of the conscious and subconscious mind.
wernertrp
accurate:
=Physics is accurate in some ways, I hope so.
Eckankar is accumulated inaccuracy and than square rooted
in the hope to bring out a mean accurate result.
to bring out an
TianYue
Heh...exactly. And that equation would probably make sense to them.
TianYue
TianYue
It isn't just their egos reacting, Jonathan. You mentioned how long it
took you to leave eckankar. That's not at all unusual, and in your
case, your departure from the fold is quite recent. Perhaps in time,
you may come to realize that criticism of eckankar threatens not just
ego, but their entire "reality," which provokes far more than an ego
reaction. It's fear of losing everything they have emotionally,
mentally, and spiritually invested in.
It can shake people to the core.
TianYue
TianYue
One more thing: The process of leaving doesn't end the moment you
resign your membership. It can go on for years after, as more and more
realizations and awakenings from indoctrination take place.
TianYue
Rich?
> As a result of TianYues's recent post called "Why they are so strange"
> I have been researching some things. I have been reading a lot about
> the ego. I realized two things:
>
> 1. The reason it took me ten years to leave Eckankar is because my ego
> couldn't handle the truth about Eckankar. I (my ego) couldn't handle
> the fact that I was THAT wrong about believing all of Twitchell's
> lies, etc. That I was THAT wrong about just looking the other way
> regarding Twitchell's curses.
Seems to me that your ego never allowed you to realize that you are not ego.
> The other thing I realized is:
>
> 2. The reason why some members of Eckankar go so ballistic when people
> criticize Eckankar is because their ego is being seriously offended.
> Their reaction is "How dare you say that I am wrong!" It's all due to
> their ego being knocked completely off kilter by people saying that
> their beliefs in Eckankar are flawed.
Yes, I've seen that too.
> It is very interesting because
> many of these people are probably fifth initiates. And by Eckankar's
> definition, fifth initiates should really no longer have ego issues
> since according to Eckankar they are now established on the soul plane
> which is above the level of the conscious and subconscious mind.
Again you identify the ego instead of Soul as Self. You being an example of
a 5th initiate who didn't make the identity change.
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Jonathan Johns
You are the most egotistical person on this message board. You are the
one who always fly off the handle when anyone criticisms Ecknakar.
Proving that YOU still have an ego. And it is very much controlling
you.
Jonathan
Jonathan Johns
> It isn't just their egos reacting, Jonathan. You mentioned how long it
> took you to leave eckankar. That's not at all unusual, and in your
> case, your departure from the fold is quite recent. Perhaps in time,
> you may come to realize that criticism of eckankar threatens not just
> ego, but their entire "reality," which provokes far more than an ego
> reaction. It's fear of losing everything they have emotionally,
> mentally, and spiritually invested in.
> It can shake people to the core.
JJ - You are probably right about it not just being ego. But I'm
starting to realize something. When a person gets the fifth, their ego
doesn't disappear. After all, their physical body doesn't just
disappear. The ego is still there. And these Eckists who think they
are establish on the fifth plane "but my ego no longer controls me"
are just kidding themselves.
And I'm wondering whether a person's sense of who they are is directly
tied into their ego. After all, isn't my ego "Who I am?" Or at least
"Who I believe I am?" It almost seems to me that my ego and my sense
of who I is almost the same thing.
Jonathan
TianYue
Jonathan, the initiations mean absolutely nothing in terms of
representing any change in consciousness or ego-transcendence. Nothing
at all.
TianYue.
Rich?
Flying off the handle is not accurate, but yes, of course I have an ego. You
missed my point.
signon77
TianYue,
I wouldn't agree that the "initiations mean absolutely nothing in
terms of representing any change in consciousness".
Maybe you've forgotten your earlier experiences on the path of ECK. Do
you remember your various inner initiations between the major outer
ones? I certainly do and I'd be surprised if you didn't. After all
you reached the Sixth Initiation. Don't you recall the knowingness of
accompanying karma being lifted during at least 1 of the 5 outer
initiations you had? Midway during your Fourth Initiation, for
instance, did the Mahanta replace your secret word? Believe or not,
when this happens, the chela has reached a higher level within his
circle of initiation. Reread the dream books you kept while a member
of ECKANKAR. You'll find an abundance of truth there.
May the blessings be.
Rob
TianYue
People have inner visions all the time that are not literally true.
Placing absolute certainty in any inner experience opens the doorway
to self-delusion.
Your assertion is based on circular logic. The assertion is basically,
"I have inner experiences which are absolutely true because I say they
are. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with my assertion must be wrong.
TianYue is thus wrong."
Can you see the circular logic? It leaves no room for anyone but
yourself to be right, based on nothing more than your belief that your
experiences are infallible. Dangerous ground for you in my opinion,
but knock yourself out.
Tianyue