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Rebazar real, or not
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Etznab
Jun 14, 2015, 11:33:18 PM6/14/15
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Nobody really said that a fictional master could not work like a placebo. And nobody really said other people could not benefit from fictional masters.
What I have mentioned is the importance of clarification between what is fiction and what is fact.
Now, long ago, there was maybe a time when hardly anybody even dreamed of seeing plagiarisms. A time when people simply believed everything Paul Twitchell and Eckankar wrote / said as if literally true.
But that is how a lot of religions work, where stories are changed and people go on believing and benefiting regardless if literally true, or not. However - and this is one of the points I make - people do have a right to know the truth and view pseudo man-made history / religion next to what actually happened vs. what was imagined, or invented. (Thus the importance of studying the examples of plagiarism, etc.)
One of the problems is this. That after believing for so long it is hard for so many people to finally replace fiction with fact. Some will even fight to keep the fictions that perhaps generations of people have believed in.
Look at Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and even Buddhism. There are so many divisions and sects even within each main religion and not everybody believes the same. The differences between different religions is just the most extreme.
Another point I make is that many needless deaths and destruction could be prevented if people weren't allowed to carry on with fictions as if they were fact. Because this is like what happens with cancers and viruses that go on multiplying at the expense of the host.
It has been probably over ten years now since I began posting and I went out of my way not to make sweeping statements and discount ancient masters altogether. If you look you will find that most of my queries are in the form of questions, because it is a quest for the truth. Assumptions can be used for conversation, along with "what if's", but are not the same as making statements of fact.
What I have noticed is how sensitive some people are even to talk about a topic like plagiarisms, or someone like Paul Twitchell not always being honest with his readers. But Harold Klemp took the liberty to do so, and Doug Marman gave examples of sources that Paul drew from.
The facts don't play favorites, I think it fair to say. And it matters not how many speeches by Harold and / or how many books by Marman when the facts and the actual truth will always be available for discovery.
I know that people generally don't like a story to change. Especially if the story sells. But people do have a right to pursue the truth and not be maligned by "believers" to afraid to accept an inconvenient truth.
Harold spoke about the death of an ideal. He also mentioned something to the effect that "... Many of us haven't done this, but some of us have. ... ."
Here is more context (see link for even more):
"And so we have, perhaps, the death of an ideal. This means that no
longer can we make a god out of a man. It was never intended. Many of us
haven't done this, but some of us have."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/death$20of$20an$20ideal$20some$20of$20us$20have/alt.religion.eckankar/2VPC23uOJtE/kZG1BcxzKWAJ
Btw, in the first post when the person quoted the transcript, part of the the text was pseudo man-made text; and after the fact. For example: Quoting ...
"For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth," I reply.
THAT WAS NOT WHAT HAROLD SAID IN HIS TALK! LISTEN TO THE TAPE!
There appear to be at least three different versions of what Harold Klemp said. For the three different versions I'm talking about, refer to the following sentences:
(1) " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]" - Based on Doug Marman's version in his 2000 online book.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Ten.htm
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]" - Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]" - Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
*********
Apparently, both Doug Marman's version and the Eckankar transcript version are not exactly the words Harold Klemp spoke in April 1984; concerning Harold's encounter with the late Paul Twitchell at the astral plane library, what have you.
So stories often change, they get repeated and people believe them. This is why I spent hours upon hours looking at earlier and many varied versions of Paul Twitchell's writings. This is to help isolate the truth. The plagiarisms are only more references to consider, but that can add a lot of insight.
What I have mentioned is the importance of clarification between what is fiction and what is fact.
Now, long ago, there was maybe a time when hardly anybody even dreamed of seeing plagiarisms. A time when people simply believed everything Paul Twitchell and Eckankar wrote / said as if literally true.
But that is how a lot of religions work, where stories are changed and people go on believing and benefiting regardless if literally true, or not. However - and this is one of the points I make - people do have a right to know the truth and view pseudo man-made history / religion next to what actually happened vs. what was imagined, or invented. (Thus the importance of studying the examples of plagiarism, etc.)
One of the problems is this. That after believing for so long it is hard for so many people to finally replace fiction with fact. Some will even fight to keep the fictions that perhaps generations of people have believed in.
Look at Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and even Buddhism. There are so many divisions and sects even within each main religion and not everybody believes the same. The differences between different religions is just the most extreme.
Another point I make is that many needless deaths and destruction could be prevented if people weren't allowed to carry on with fictions as if they were fact. Because this is like what happens with cancers and viruses that go on multiplying at the expense of the host.
It has been probably over ten years now since I began posting and I went out of my way not to make sweeping statements and discount ancient masters altogether. If you look you will find that most of my queries are in the form of questions, because it is a quest for the truth. Assumptions can be used for conversation, along with "what if's", but are not the same as making statements of fact.
What I have noticed is how sensitive some people are even to talk about a topic like plagiarisms, or someone like Paul Twitchell not always being honest with his readers. But Harold Klemp took the liberty to do so, and Doug Marman gave examples of sources that Paul drew from.
The facts don't play favorites, I think it fair to say. And it matters not how many speeches by Harold and / or how many books by Marman when the facts and the actual truth will always be available for discovery.
I know that people generally don't like a story to change. Especially if the story sells. But people do have a right to pursue the truth and not be maligned by "believers" to afraid to accept an inconvenient truth.
Harold spoke about the death of an ideal. He also mentioned something to the effect that "... Many of us haven't done this, but some of us have. ... ."
Here is more context (see link for even more):
"And so we have, perhaps, the death of an ideal. This means that no
longer can we make a god out of a man. It was never intended. Many of us
haven't done this, but some of us have."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/death$20of$20an$20ideal$20some$20of$20us$20have/alt.religion.eckankar/2VPC23uOJtE/kZG1BcxzKWAJ
Btw, in the first post when the person quoted the transcript, part of the the text was pseudo man-made text; and after the fact. For example: Quoting ...
"For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth," I reply.
THAT WAS NOT WHAT HAROLD SAID IN HIS TALK! LISTEN TO THE TAPE!
There appear to be at least three different versions of what Harold Klemp said. For the three different versions I'm talking about, refer to the following sentences:
(1) " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]" - Based on Doug Marman's version in his 2000 online book.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Ten.htm
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]" - Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]" - Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
*********
Apparently, both Doug Marman's version and the Eckankar transcript version are not exactly the words Harold Klemp spoke in April 1984; concerning Harold's encounter with the late Paul Twitchell at the astral plane library, what have you.
So stories often change, they get repeated and people believe them. This is why I spent hours upon hours looking at earlier and many varied versions of Paul Twitchell's writings. This is to help isolate the truth. The plagiarisms are only more references to consider, but that can add a lot of insight.
Henosis Sage
Jun 15, 2015, 12:35:48 AM6/15/15
to
It's that simple.
Kinpa
Jun 16, 2015, 12:32:05 PM6/16/15
to
Kinpa
Jun 16, 2015, 10:29:04 PM6/16/15
to
wernertrp
Jun 17, 2015, 1:24:01 AM6/17/15
to
Twitchell is hoaxing everyone.
Kinpa
Jun 17, 2015, 1:24:52 AM6/17/15
to
wernertrp
Jun 17, 2015, 1:36:04 AM6/17/15
to
Mein Lieblingsdämon:
Ist Astaroth:
Großherzog und Zahl- und Oberschatzmeister in der Hölle,
er ist stumm aber sehr schreibgewandt,
er stinkt aus dem Mund, er lehrt die wissenschaftlichen und mathematischen Künste,
er ist Herrscher über 40 Legionen, er liebt die Faulheit und die Prunksucht und ist eitel,
er steht an 29. Stelle in der Goetia,
Henosis Sage
Jun 17, 2015, 3:03:20 AM6/17/15
to
Marman, Klemp and Twitchell are manifold liars of the highest order.
It's that simple.
People can make of that what they will, look at it or not, it's a choice.
It's that simple.
TWITCHELL ECKANKAR HISTORY ARCHIVE
With scans of original writings, articles, legal documents, books, plagiarisms,
photos, audio, genealogy, personal history records, contracts, tall stories,
court reporting, shunning, gossip, politics, copyright infringement, lying, the
abuse of power, incompetence, mental health and psychological recovery.
18 folders
2,600 files
3.9 Gb size
Free to View Online
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPalFWRzl6YmlmM00&usp=sharing#list
It's that simple. But requires personal effort.
Etznab
Jun 17, 2015, 8:45:22 AM6/17/15
to
And I also saw that Kinpa doesn't want to help with the book.
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