Rebazar Tarzs History
Etznab
Thirty-eight years and one day after the death of
Paul Twitchell - modern day founder of Eckankar -
I was moved to consider the following words about
his purported "guru" Rebazar Tarzs:
"said to be over five hundred years old"
There is much information about Rebazar Tarzs
I have looked at. Including what appeared in most
of Paul Twitchell's books and writings. I can't say
beyond a reasonable doubt "yea" or "nay" whether
Rebazar Tarzs is now, or ever was a real live living
person, or a literary invention by Paul Twitchell.
Numerous claims have been made about other
teachers and masters that Paul studied with, and
how Paul may have substituted the name Rebazar
Tarzs for one of them.
I don't know any people Paul Twitchell studied
with who were said to be over five hundred years
old. So I decided to trace the history of that 500-
year-old reference.
First of all, I considered the following:
*****************************************************
Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine:
"Each has had a place in my growth toward the
spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work
for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship
and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown
me a lot of the other work during my first year or
so under him. Since we have parted he keeps an
impartial view toward me and my research. There-
fore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I
feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my
work."
Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has
had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal;
each is equally great in his work for mankind. How-
ever, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to
Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the other work,
during my first year or so under him. Since we have
parted he has retained an impartial view toward me
and my research.
"If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that
he is sympathetic and interested in my work and led
me to Rebazar Tarzs."
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
*****************************************************
Sudar Singh is reportedly the person who led Paul
Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs.
"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a
Tibetan saint, whom he said was reputed to be over
five hundred years old, and was at the time living in
the foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock some-
where, but presently has a small abode in the Hindu
Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
near Tibet. [....]"
[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross),
p. 32]
"I began my study of ECKANKAR under the tutelage
of Sat Guru Sudar Singh in Allahabad, India. Later I
studied under Rebazar Tarzs."
[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
(Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
p. 50]
EUREKA! Here is this illustrated historical record
about Rebazar Tarzs and his reported age.
I'd often wondered why the Eckankar dictionaries
- from past to present - preserved the phrase "said
to be" concerning Rebazar Tarzs and his age. This
suggests to me that someone "said" it.
When I asked myself the question How did Paul
Twitchell learn about the old age for Rebazar Tarzs?
I wondered if the information came by way of some-
thing he read, or heard.
The Compiled Writings book by Gail T. Gross was
(apparently) not the only illustration.
There is another:
" 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that,
shortly after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in
Allahabad. It was while renewing my physical bonds with
Sudar Singh that I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar
Tarzs [Paul & Harold claim 1951], who is said to be several
hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I truly
began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the
techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-conscious-
ness.' "
[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger
(Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]
Many times (comparing Paul's early and later writings)
the name Sudar Singh can be seen replacing where was
once Kirpal Singh. I asked myself the question Did Kirpal
Singh ever tell Paul about a "guru" reportedly 500+ years
old? I don't know that he did.
Today I searched the history for Surat Shabda Yoga,
Sant Mat & Radha Soami, but didn't find any mention
about a 500+ year-old master. This led me back to the
record of what Sudar Singh reportedly said.
"[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan
lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard
much from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. This lama,
Rebazar Tarzs, was one of those who had escaped the
Chinese who had invaded his country, and it was said
that he now lived in the hill country close by.
"It was a hot summer afternoon in 1951. [....]"
[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross),
p. 32]
Here is this illustrated record of the "apparent fact"
that even before Paul Twitchell had met Rebazar Tarzs
in this lifetime he heard about him from someone else!
The elusive, the mysterious (when you go & research
his history) Sudar Singh!
Ordinarily, someone researching the history for Eck
Master Rebazar Tarzs would naturally consider history
for Sudar Singh. And for the reasons I have shown.
It gets a little creepy though when I look over all the
illustrated references to Sudar Singh, or how many
times his name apparently replaces Kirpal Singh. For
anybody who has done research for Sudar Singh it is
just as much an apparent riddle as for Rebazar Tarzs.
T least, so it seems to me.
Many years ago (1983-1984), I think, Harold Klemp
mentioned something about a physical history to verify
the existence of Eck Masters would be vital for the
survival of Eckankar as a religious teaching. Something
to that effect.
Wait. Here is the quote:
"We are making an effort to construct a physical history
of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to verify
the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way that
historians of the future will be able to accept; something
beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK Masters of
the past. It will be vital for the survival of ECKANKAR as a
religious teaching in the future.
"As we began research in a number of different areas
around the world, we got reports that Sudar Singh had lived
and really was an ECK Master. Many ECKists have exper-
iences with Rebazar Tarzs, Yaubl Sacabi, Fubbi Quantz,
and other ECK Masters, but very few see Sudar Singh. As it
turns out, he did live and work in Allahabad. Paul mentioned
he died around the 1940s, but it seems to have been around
1955.
"The research we do today will someday be pored over by
historians. They will get into great debates about this or that
crisis, about this or that person. We are living the historical
moments today, and whatever later historians want to make
of it for their own unfoldment is up to them. For now, we con-
tinue to live our lives in the mainstream of Spirit."
[Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246]
Many years after that (2000?) Doug Marman mentions the
word "vital" (in connection with Eck Masters), as well.
"[....] ... Paul was bringing to ECKANKAR a freedom from
past traditions while incorporating the elements from them
that were vital. The concept of spiritual lineage was important,
but the restrictions, traditions and worship that go along with
physical lineage was not. Therefore, Paul described the spirit-
ual line of ECK Masters, not for its historical accuracy based
upon historical records, but to show that as the Sufis say
there is always one who is the spiritual Pole of the world, and
this light has passed from continent to continent, from race to
race, from culture to culture, down through time. [....]"
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
It sounded like a statement, to me, when Doug illustrated:
"Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters,
not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records
... [....]"
How does Doug know this?
BTW, there was only one other mention of a "guru" being
500+ years old, and one that Paul Twitchell may have known
about from affiliations with another path. It was that Kriya Yoga
"guru" (master), Babaji.
"In addition, Babaji is reputed to be ageless, according to
some accounts, and about 500 years old around the late
1800’s, according to Swami Pranabananda.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
"Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar
Babaji responded that he was about 500 years old at that
time. [1894?] [4] [....]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
*****************************************************
If anything, research I illustrated here shows that people
(other than Paul Twitchell) knew about Rebazar Tarzs at a
time in this lifetime before Paul Twitchell heard the name
for himself. This is my take, at least.
My research also shows that Rebazar Tarzs was not the
only 500+ year old master reported to give instructions to
people on Earth.
I didn't have time, but I wanted to check a reference to
one called "The Tibetan" I recall mentioned in some other
group. Because, seeing that people apparently knew
about Rebazar Tarzs, before Paul Twitchell did, I wanted
to search the legends of masters said to be hundreds of
years old. Legends other than what is found in "Eckankar"
literature.
Etznab
Etznab
**********************************************************************
Not stating I believe for a fact Rebazar Tarzs was / is Babaji.
However, I wanted to give the following trivia for reference since
I mentioned on this thread another "guru" (that Paul Twitchell
was most likely familiar with) purported to be over five hundred
years old.
This is reportedly a quote by Paul Twitchell:
One of my experiences while serving under the Yoga Satsang
line of masters, was that I found one of the masters on the guise
of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for sometime, and very unhappy
over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem. . . .
The night after my problem had dissolved the Indian Master
Yukestar [sic], of Yoga Satsang, appeared to me in a dream. He
said, "You are under my protection. I come to you to give you help.
Whenever anything happens that you are discouraged and beaten
by the world, I will come to you, in many guises, to help. Never
worry again about life's problems on earth."
[Ibid., page 38. Also refer to the third part of this book.]
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
This quote appears in first section of the link I gave. I'm not
sure
what the source book is here. Whether an Orion Magazine issue
of "The Flute of God", or not.
I am guessing the master Paul referred to was Sri Yukteswar.
"[....] Paramahansa Yogananda also revealed that it was Babaji
who taught a powerful series of yogic techniques, know as 'Kriya
Yoga,' to Lahiri Mahasaya, around 1861, and who subsequently
initiated many others, including Yogananda`s own Christ-like guru,
Sri Yukteswar, some thirty years later. [....]"
http://www.babajiskriyayoga.net/english/about-babaji.htm
Thus, Babaji was believed to be the master of Sri Yukteswar,
apparently. I don't doubt that Paul Twitchell knew stories about
Babaji.
************************************************************************
David Lane mentioned that Paul was familiar with the "Great
White Masters" from Theosophical literature.
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
I haven't so far researched that topic, but I wonder if David was
alluding to the "Great White Brotherhood".
Regardless, I'm still looking at the apparent fact Paul Twitchell
(reportedly) first heard / learned about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar
Singh. However, if Sudar Singh was some "cover name", etc., for
another "guru" familiar to Paul Twitchell then I would naturally go
look at the teaching traditions familiar to them. Look for mention
of a "said to be" over five-hundred-year-old "guru".
BTW, the second part of that Paul Twitchell quote mentioning
"Indian Master Yukestar [sic], of Yoga Satsang" sounds familiar
to me. Didn't Paul Twitchell write something similar about Rebazar
Tarzs?
Although I'm really looking to find history for Rebazar Tarzs, my
suspicion is somewhat close to what Marman wrote about Paul T.
with the words: "... described the spiritual line of ECK Masters,
not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records ...."
(See Chap. Five of Doug's online book for context.)
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
Etznab
Doug
If you are trying to look at the possibility that Rebazar Tarzs is
Babaji, then you should look at Chapter 11 of The Far Country, where
Rebazar is quoted as saying this:
"The fact that great ECK Masters have lived with us for centuries on
earth and are here today, is one of the most important, most cheerful
and most hopeful thoughts that man can have. The light of the
spiritual travelers is in no way dimmed by comparison with those of
the ancient past - in fact many of the ancient masters are still
living with us here upon the earth world. There is an adept over seven
hundred years old living within a few miles of this mud hut. he is
Babaji - the master of Yogda Satsang, and there are several other yoga
teachers in the same group."
Perhaps we see in this quote why Paul even brings up such incredible
ages - because it is such a hopeful thought to show that such teachers
are with us.
The reason such ideas are rejected out of hand today, in fact laughed
at, is because our modern myth is that everything exists within us,
while in previous ages most people believed that spiritual teachers
and reality influenced us from outside of the human brain.
The presence of spiritual teachers in this world is therefore hopeful
and cheerful because it is a way of connecting to that spiritual
teaching that is manifested in this world.
Modern sensibilities will reject this because it is at odds with
popular belief that such spiritual thinking is just imagination.
When going through all of your examinations about the historical
reality of Rebazar, it seems to me that what you are really trying to
do is deal with the modern day belief system you have grown up in and
shapes what you accept or reject. In other words, unless we get beyond
these myths, they will end up filtering what we see and how things
look. We end up rejecting what our belief system rejects without
realizing that this has nothing to do with truth.
My experience has been that a methodical, logical and reasoned
approach doesn't help us see beyond our beliefs. The lenses over our
eyes are there through the whole process, and thus we end up
reinforcing what we believe by reasoned arguments, as if we were
discovering something, when in fact we are only rejecting what doesn't
fit in our belief system.
Anyway, I thought you might find these thoughts interesting. This is
what I often see lurking beneath these kinds of discussions. We are
trying to get beyond the lenses of our perception, because we know
there is much more to life than we see. But our own lenses keep us
from seeing life as it is.
Doug.
Etznab
>
> read more »
Doug,
Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You kinda lost me
around the third-last paragraph, as I wasn't exactly sure the
meaning behind what you wrote.
The first part of that paragraph read:
"When going through all of your examinations about the
historical reality of Rebazar, it seems to me that what you
are really trying to do is deal with the modern day belief
system you have grown up in and shapes what you accept
or reject. [....]"
When I read that section over again, the sentence made
sense. However, in the second section (and the rest of what
you wrote) I see the words "us" and "we" connected to the
words "belief system". So, it looked like at one point you're
talking about a belief system that I "grew up in", then later
as if that "belief system" is my belief system now. It's not.
In part - as concerns this topic discussion - the "system"
I grew up in was modern-day Eckankar to a large extent. I
agree there is a "belief system" in Eckankar, generally, as
to the reality of Rebazar Tarzs. However, beliefs vary from
person to person. Beliefs are often "learned", even "taught".
Especially when it comes to relationships between young
people and adults. Young and innocent children are prone
to believe in just about anything. Their imaginations are very
fertile ground for all sorts of things that adults would dismiss
as fantasy, or fiction.
There was a time I did not have a belief system about the
Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs. But I did come to grow up in one
after exposure to Paul Twitchell's books on the subject, what
the current spiritual leader of Eckankar has said, and what so
many people have said.
How does it happen that children learn to dismiss the false
beliefs they were intentionally taught by their parents? What
their parents parents taught to them, etc., etc? Beliefs in the
Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy?, Santa Clause?
The children learn that they had a mistaken belief! Children
learn the difference between fantasy and fact. Either that, or
the children see their parents playing the role, at which point
the parents become "made". The real players behind the act
are exposed. Like The Wizard of Oz when Toto pulled back
the curtain!
My belief system about Rebazar Tarzs is not the same as
it used to be. I can't say the same for Eckankar, in general,
or other people. "That" belief system is still operating, IMO.
Like children are still being taught about fairy tale characters.
(Meaning, anything taken to be literal truth which is, in fact,
not.)
The position I find myself in now is somewhat like a child
who has grown up. One having learned things about Rebazar
Tarzs that many innocent people are still unaware. How do I
approach the "belief systems" of other people on this subject?
How do I dialogue about it without introducing my own? And
giving the reasons for my own, based on empirical evidence?
It is not my belief that Rebazar Tarzs is Babaji. And I was
familiar with the quote you shared. This thread, however, was
inspired by "500 years old".
I don't doubt that people can live longer than the ordinary
80-100 years. And this (500 years) is something that does
not apply to the history of people "believed" to be Rebazar
Tarzs by those who have tried to make sense of what Paul
wrote about him. I'm talking about the people's names that
were replaced by Rebazar Tarzs. None of those people, or
masters were "said to be" over 500 years old.
The mention of Babaji was interjected on account of the
legends about him. One being that he was more than 500
years old. I also alluded to at least one other tradition that
might include ancient masters, as well. That I wanted to
look at them, too.
Taking the characteristic of 500+ years about Rebazar
Tarzs into consideration, and searching other legends for
a similar characteristic, it does not mean I "believe" in the
story as if it were fact. I have considered it, in part because
"Eckankar" (and the current leader) appear to still believe
in it.
I have heard it over and over again that the Eck Masters
"are real". Harold Klemp has written as much. Though I do
not know he used quotation marks. Or even italics. On the
official Eckankar Web page is a picture of Rebazar Tarzs.
It's at the top of the page for Eck Masters & shows Harold
and Rebazar having a discussion.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/index.html
What does this say to people coming across it for the
first time? What does it do to the "belief system" for the
people who read Eckankar's history about Rebazar Tarzs
for the first time?
Maybe people accept things without question when the
source is an indisputable authority figure. Like parents to
a young child. Or, The Mahanta, The Living Eck Master
to an Eckist (perhaps).
I am disputing the history of Rebazar Tarzs, by looking
at the belief system I "grew up in" and doing so critically.
I showed that the person who "introduced me" to Rebazar
Tarzs claimed that someone introduced Rebazar Tarzs to
him. For Paul Twitchell, it appears that Sudar Singh was
at the "root" for history about Rebazar Tarzs. The quotes
read (at least one of them) that Rebazar Tarzs was "known"
by others, too.
What I'm looking to do is clarify the information taught
to me. Sorting fiction from fact. Looking at what was the
Eck Master "really" to Paul Twitchell? Not to mention - if
he was anything to Sudar Singh.
When discussing a topic it is not unusual for different
individuals to each express their own belief systems.
Even if that means one is not sure what to believe. And
then give the reasons why.
Here is an example. Doug. Do you believe a person
called Sudar Singh introduced Paul Twitchell to what
are the first two words in the title of this thread? Did
Sudar Singh introduce Paul to Rebazar Tarzs?
Anybody?
Etznab
Ken
When I read this I am reminded of a saying, "a fish doesn't know that
it's wet." It seems to me that the "belief systems" you are talking
about that really influence us in mostly unseen ways are the ones that
are so ubiquitous, so much a part of our frame of reference and integral
to our normal world view, that we are not even aware of them in our day
to day existence. That's one of the reasons for the spiritual
exercises. In order to really see the world, we need to step out of the
normal frame of reference. We need to stand apart from the water of
normal experience that surrounds us.
--
Ken
Number Harmonics
Just passing through and read your note.
My view is that you are right on the money with this. So much of what we
"believe" as fact or even "believe" to be myth is really the sustrata of our
own consciousness trying to find points of balance.
An example in point is the Big Bang theory, which is SO needing of facts to
fill out the issues that science is willing to commit Billions of dollars to
prove it's notions are right (the search for dark matter, etc.)
More eclectic and less argumentative theories such as the Electric Universe,
or the Holographic Universe are rejected out of hand, despite the fact that
the models fit the facts, whereas the Big Bang is just disproven with Mass
equations, expansion calculations, and just about everything you could
imagine.
It's about myth fulfillment more than truth.
In current world thought, myth fulfillment has transmuted to Climate Change
and Global Warming. And if this argument serves to clean up polution, make
people more sensitive to nature, then it is all for the best. But I suspect
it will all become a new way to raise tases.
As far as Rebazar goes ... Dan Strider knows all about that guy!
More seriously, if people had one moment of pure, raw experience with this
teacher, all questions of age, whatever would cease.
More specifically, in all things spiritual, social, personal, whatever ...
Pure experience, direct perception of the reality as Soul. This is the ONLY
answer that will cut through the Gorgonian knots of expectations,
socializations, and self-conviction.
IMHO: Only when we cut to the chase of what is truly and deeply what IS can
we know what isn't. All the questions pursuing truth are like puppies
chasing tails.
The only truth we can truly discover about Rebazar is found in meeting him.
That's it. And even then, it remains our personal truth.
Curiously, this entire train of though is answered in a simple phrase
Rebazar once said to me:
If it is not obvious, it is not worth it
Much Love
Michael
"Doug" <d.ma...@littleknownpubs.com> wrote in message
news:ce5ac75b-1816-4d15...@d15g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Number Harmonics
"Ken" <K...@NowHere.net> wrote in message
news:QoGdnb9sfe2qxCvX...@supernews.com...
I get it Ken
If a fish swims in the forest, and no one is listening to it scream, then it
is not really wet
Mixed Metaphorically yours
Michael-ji-ji
>
S e a n
"Number Harmonics" <numberh...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:h995c0$61g$1...@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
Sri Michael Ji Ji Ji,
So glad you are here, again, and still have lots to learn I see! :)
When you finally get to the point of working out what is so obvious about
yourself, do get back to us. I still believe in miracles, angels, and the
power of Love to heal all.
In the meantime try a little research and work out how long ago it was that
Doug actually responded to you directly on a public forum.
Maybe he might tomorrow, I don't know.
But not only does tomorrow never come, but Tomorrow Never Knows either.
Not wanting to point out the obvious, but here is another obvious
example......
"Much Love"
Sean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVUzTZ5dgwQ
Hello Goodbye!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf2S7kKLtEQ&feature=fvw
Ken
Fish stories! You have really sunk to new lows Sri Michaelji-ji-ji.
--
Ken
Jasmyn
Physical records are fine. But I think experience trumps all for any
individual. At times such things seem to be meant as one's own
personal truth, not something that can always be proven to someone
else, because people are at such different places in their spiritual
life.
Within a group of like minded individuals who are exploring in the
same ways they sometimes share their experiences with others. Lots of
people within Eckankar have talked about meeting Rebazar Tarzs.
My favorite saying from Paul Twitchell I sometimes quote to my family
is: "Patience is the key to life". I like that as it can be
interpreted as the answer to so many things. When we are patient, even
if it takes many, many years, the answers we are seeking come, if we
ask we're given the answer, that's what I've found to be true.
It may seem at first off subject, but somehow this reminds me of what
I was just reading in Phil Morimitsu's book IN THE COMPANY OF ECK
MASTERS from the chapter 'Church'. He had gone into a church to get
warm, and read an inscription on the base of a statue which was the
thirteenth chapter of St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:
[quote] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not
love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic
powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have
all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am
nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be
burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not
arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not
irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in
the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all
things, endures all things.
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for
tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For
our knowledge is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect
will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought
like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up
childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to
face. Now I know in part, then I shall understand fully even as I
have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three;
but the greatest of these is love. [end quote]
There's a lot in that, among other things, answers to our spiritual
questions ultimately come from within.
Also from that chapter on page 126, it's talking about the need for a
master in the 'physical body' to keep alive the pure teachings of any
path. Rebazar Tarzs, as he is known to Eckists, has fulfilled that
roll at times.
For now, to question about Rebazar Tarzs is a spiritual question,
answered to each individually.
Jasmyn
Etznab
>
> read more »
I could make up any history I want about Rebazar Tarzs
and Eck Masters. So can you and so can everybody else.
What is my question is Who made up the history first?
And was it a real history? A pseudo history? Or both?
If the primary history was pseudo, or imaginary, then it
could follow that everything else was pseudo and imagin-
ary. No matter who the author.
Is this what the thread has turned to? Imaginary history?
Try looking at stories about Rebazar Tarzs and Sudar
Singh. Look at the dates and alleged history chronicled
by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar. Look at the number of
times their names replace names of real people and the
history of real people (other people) in the beginning.
I don't deny any imaginary Sudar Singh and Rebazar
Tarzs. I make a distinction though between imaginary &
what is a real live physical living master.
Where is the physical proof for a Sudar Singh and / or
a Rebazar Tarzs?
Imagination? Is that the proof?
Today is Tuesday, but if I imagine it's Wednesday does
that mean it's Wednesday? Does it mean it's Wednesday
for everybody else in the world? Including those who know
better? It might very well be Wednesday in some parts of
the world, but not in all parts. There is a reason.
Suppose I didn't have a time piece & I asked a person
who did have a time piece what time it was. If the person
made up the time instead of giving the real time, does it
mean that is what time it is for them and me? Do I have
the right to question if I suspect deception? Do I have the
right to know the truth and what time it actually is? Sure
I do. Just like I have the right to validate Sudar Singh and
Rebazar Tarzs history and put them into context. History,
legend or myth, etc.
There is a very real physical phenomena having to do
with relationship between the Sun and Earth. People have
used that relationship to keep time for ages. Today in the
U.S. is a turning point in the cycle of the year. This is not
an imaginary phenomena, but based on very real physical
substances.
Words in a book don't make living people. Living people
make living people. Where is the proof that Sudar Singh
and Rebazar Tarzs were - or are - living people who had,
or have now, physical bodies to prove it?
Other people's imaginations?
Hey! There goes Godzilla! Did you see him?
Etznab
Rich
> On Sep 22, 2:54 pm, Jasmyn <Jasmyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jasmyn
>
No, didn't see godzilla, just some poor man beating on his chest, completely
stuck in the outward muck, without patience's for love within...
Rich
Excellent post Jasmyn. Thanks.
` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_/____|___\_
Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
Number Harmonics
"Ken" <K...@NowHere.net> wrote in message
Come now, I could have mentioned NAZI's
Hit the Hitler
Nag the Nazi
Gestuate to the Gestapo
That last one was a real stretch
lol
Michael
>
Jasmyn
>
> � �I could make up any history I want about Rebazar Tarzs
Etznab,
Imagination is an interesting subject. How can anyone say another's
experience is only their imagination? It's not your own experience,
so there's really no way of knowing. Even more, why think someone
might make something up as the analogies you gave?
I believe people to be sincere and I take them at their word when
describing some of their most important life altering experiences.
It's sometimes so important to them that they find they must tell
others about it, it's hard to keep it in. I know that has happened to
me, many years ago when I first had a dramatic life altering spiritual
experience. So when someone talks about it, I take them at their word.
You are obviously wrestling with this issue. You are looking for
physical, historical verification about the existence of Rebazar
Tarzs. You have doubts based on what you've read, and you want
verification in that same way, based on reading about it.
Sri Harold unequivocally states the reality of Rebazar Tarzs, and it's
not uncommon that people are having experiences with him. For those
such as yourself trying to prove/disprove via *written* works, I think
you may be coming at it from the wrong way, just my opinion. There are
always explanations about the written works that can make sense, such
as found in Doug's book. Try approaching it the other way. Look to the
inner master (if you care to) on the subject, continue to do the
spiritual exercises, ask the inner master for the experience and the
answer you seek. Or not. Whatever you want to do.
There are no right or wrong ways to follow your path, it will lead you
to where you should be. But you shouldn't think it has an effect on
the overall for others. They are having their own experiences and
prove these things for themselves, or not.
A couple of years back a friend began emailing me saying she felt
Eckankar was a false teaching, because she was having no experiences
of any kind, of seeing light, etc. It didn't make any sense to me
because I was having vivid experiences. The emails went on for a
while, she was intensely critical of the LEM and the path. I tried to
tell her of some of the wonderful experiences I was having, but I
think she didn't get it because it was not in her experience. She left
Eckankar. It's sometimes the danger for those who express such strong
doubt that the bridges can get burned depending on how they handle it,
then it's tough to go back. Sometimes it may be like a self fulfilling
prophecy which causes one to become unable to experience for oneself.
This is actually a negative imaginative mold.
That's why the LEM says to keep up the three disciplines: the
spiritual exercises, reading something each day in the ECK works, and
practicing the presence of the inner master. These are for us, to
protect us on our way that we don't go off course and fall into the
traps of the mind, or get sucked into negative imaginative molds.
These are my opinions, you may feel differently.
Jasmyn
Etznab
The subject title is Rebazar Tarzs History. Thanks to everyone
for adding.
Etznab
Etznab
When Paul Twitchell takes material from other sources,
borrowing teachings from other gurus, other religions and
copies sections from other books existing prior to official
founding of Eckankar in 1965, is this the same thing as
Rebazar Tarzs (or another Eck Master) standing beside
him (Paul Twitchell) in their physical body speaking and
telling Paul Twitchell what to write?
As Eckists, how do we explain the copious amounts
of sentences and paragraphs compiled from abroad, but
associated with Eck Masters instead? As if there were
Eck Masters standing beside Paul Twitchell speaking
the very same words?
**************************************************************
[....] David [David Lane] also finds a key source for Paul's early
quotes from the first published version of "The Flute of God,"
printed in installments in Orion Magazine from late 1965 to 1967.
The first few chapters mention the names of Kirpal Singh and
Sawan Singh a number of times. However, by the time the text
was published in book form, in 1970, every reference to Kirpal
Singh, Sawan Singh and Swami Premananda had been replaced
by the names of the ECK Masters. In even a few cases, some of
the early quotes that Paul had originally credited to Jesus were
changed to Gopal Das or another ECK Master. Here are a few of
the most interesting of these quotes: [....]
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
**************************************************************
For the reader who is interested in looking at how wide-
ranging Paul's use of other materials really is, outside of
the Radha Soami references that David has offered, here
are a few of the books I have run across that turned out
to be more than just a little bit familiar sounding:
In The Way of the White Clouds, by Lama Govinda,
a book about Tibetan Buddhist teachers, you will find
the exact description Paul used when approaching Lai
Tsi's cave in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. In Walter Russell's
book, The Secret of Light, you can hear the words of
Brahm speaking to you, just like the words Brahm spoke
in The Tiger's Fang. Read Darkness and the Deep, by
Vardis Fisher, and you will see the origin of creation as
Paul wrote about it in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. A book
by Edouard Schure, called The Great Initiates contains
some of the same sweeping historical overview as The
Spiritual Notebook. Manly Palmer Hall's Karma and
Reincarnation covers the whole subject of nidanas that
you will find in The ECK Vidya. Besides these, there
are a few pages in The Varieties of Religious Experience,
by William James, some sections from Ouspensky's The
Fourth Way and In Search of the Miraculous, passages
from Neville Goddard's The Power of Awareness and
Awakened Imagination, and even The Bible has been a
source for Paul. Lai Tsi's contemplation seed in the
Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad looks very similar to one of the
Psalms.
These are just some of the books that I've run across,
or have been brought to my attention by other ECKists.
All of these, however, are small sections, perhaps a few
paragraphs, or a page or two at most, always modified to
fit. I only know of one other published book of Paul's,
besides The Far Country, in which large sections were
copied, and that is The Art of Teaching, by Gilbert Highet,
which was used extensively, and modified, in Paul's
Spiritual Instructions for the ECK Satsang Classes, a
little booklet to assist those who wanted to teach an
ECK class. The booklet has long been out of print.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm
**************************************************************
Much history exists for Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck
Masters, and given to the world by Paul Twitchell and
Eckankar. My curiosity pertains to the plagiarized and
copied material alleged to have been spoken by one of
Paul Twitchell's Eck Masters. Was it really spoken by
Eck Masters in the physical body?
Seriously, I doubt that some of the respondents for
this thread on Rebazar Tarzs History are listening to
everything illustrated. It doesn't look like everyone is
listening to where I'm coming from, or even where I'm
going with this subject.
It is curious to me why Paul Twitchell would have
an Eck Master speaking very much the same words,
same sentences and paragraphs as contained in the
books Paul Twitchell read, or that Paul found in the
library.
This has nothing to do with an "Astral Library" be-
cause Paul names the authors as Eck Masters, not
an Astral Library.
I'm not saying I don't suspect some form of library
was involved.
Etznab
Number Harmonics
original in the area where it says "See in a mirror dimly"
The original was translated as "At first, through the glass darkly, and
then, face to face."
It is meant to describe the experience of Soul meeting itself, the "I am
that I am" and the idea is to describe the lack of anything that comes back
as you cross the void.
In ECK
Michael
"Rich" <dead...@inorbit.com> wrote in message
news:h9d49...@news2.newsguy.com...
Sean
"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d1195fab-ec75-419e...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
Etznab commented:
" Seriously, I doubt that some of the respondents for
this thread on Rebazar Tarzs History are listening to
everything illustrated. It doesn't look like everyone is
listening to where I'm coming from, or even where I'm
going with this subject."
Sean:
I believe that as True!
In fact, one could say that it is completely obvious.
But obviously, not to some!
Sean
>
> Excellent post Jasmyn. Thanks.
>
I agree, yes it was. The St Paul quotes sounded very smilar to a Chapter in
Stranger by the River
Pity it was off topic and didn't actually address the intial queries in any
way though
But that's OK and to be expected, as everyone comes at things from their own
perspective, their own level of awareness of filtered reality, and their own
state of consciousness.
Rich
> It's sometimes the danger for those who express such strong
> doubt that the bridges can get burned depending on how they handle it,
> then it's tough to go back. Sometimes it may be like a self fulfilling
> prophecy which causes one to become unable to experience for oneself.
> This is actually a negative imaginative mold.
This may not exactly fit here, but it came as a quote to me today, and I
just wanted to share it.
"Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadows."
- Helen Keller
Etznab
[....]
I suppose that if you should ask the ECK Master
what is the spiritual life, he would be greatly amazed,
because he lives it so completely, more than the
ordinary man, without thinking about it; such would be
his attitude: "I don't know! You must ask the Priest or
Bishop!"
This is why I propose to say that my knowledge of this
is little: I am neither a saint nor holy man, but I can only
tell you what little I have experienced and gained through
Rebazar Tarzs. To him, my personal debt is great! But to
the MAHANTA, the greatest of spiritual consciousness,
the debt is even greater than that to the Master or teacher
in the human embodiment. For it is to the ECK Savants
or Saviors we owe the human debt!
[....]
Letters to Gail, Vol. 1, first letter, first page. (The date for
that letter was December 6, 1962. All characters were ill-
ustrated with italics script.)
*****************************************************************
That is documented history for Rebazar Tarzs. Did Paul
Twitchell write that? (I'm not saying that I know he didn't.)
From the records of Eckankar literature I have seen, the
majority of researchers appear to mention the date of 1964
for the first appearance of Rebazar Tarzs. For "MAHANTA"
I have seen the date 1969, though I believe it can be found
in 1968.
For the books Dialogues With The Master and The Tiger's
Fang (among others) I believe Rebazar Tarzs is mentioned
at the very beginning, too.
For The Key to ECKANKAR the same is true.
[....]
Years ago when I returned from England and went to
the northwest to live in Seattle, Washington, Rebazar Tarzs
spent considerable time with me in his physical body. It was
a case of his manifesting suddenly in his body and giving a
series of talks on ECKANKAR, which were to be related to
the world. Finally, one night in late winter, he wound up the
series. I have tried, as best as possible, to summarize the
talks here.
[....]
The Key to ECKANKAR, first chapter, first page (Copyright
date was listed as 1968).
*****************************************************************
The Key to ECKANKAR was one of the first Eck books
I ever bought from an Eck Center. This is probably one of
the reasons I assumed Rebazar Tarzs was a living person.
It is also, in part, the reason I'm curious about the parts of
other people's books that appear to be spoken by Rebazar
Tarzs.
I have tried to open up dialogue for History of Rebazar
Tarzs. I don't want to deflect away from and change the
subject. I keep bringing it up because IMO this is some-
thing worthy of contemplation. In other words, I believe it
worth looking at.
Etznab
Sean
"Jasmyn" <Jasm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b2d4127-082e-4739...@z28g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 22, 8:13?pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> ? ?I could make up any history I want about Rebazar Tarzs
> and Eck Masters. So can you and so can everybody else.
>
> And was it a real history? A pseudo history? Or both?
>
> could follow that everything else was pseudo and imagin-
> ary. No matter who the author.
>
>
> ? ?Try looking at stories about Rebazar Tarzs and Sudar
> Singh. Look at the dates and alleged history chronicled
> by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar. Look at the number of
> times their names replace names of real people and the
> history of real people (other people) in the beginning.
>
> Tarzs. I make a distinction though between imaginary &
> what is a real live physical living master.
>
> a Rebazar Tarzs?
>
> ? ?Imagination? Is that the proof?
>
> ? ?Today is Tuesday, but if I imagine it's Wednesday does
> that mean it's Wednesday? Does it mean it's Wednesday
> for everybody else in the world? Including those who know
> better? It might very well be Wednesday in some parts of
> the world, but not in all parts. There is a reason.
>
> who did have a time piece what time it was. If the person
> made up the time instead of giving the real time, does it
> mean that is what time it is for them and me? Do I have
> the right to question if I suspect deception? Do I have the
> right to know the truth and what time it actually is? Sure
> I do. Just like I have the right to validate Sudar Singh and
> Rebazar Tarzs history and put them into context. History,
> legend or myth, etc.
>
> with relationship between the Sun and Earth. People have
> used that relationship to keep time for ages. Today in the
> U.S. is a turning point in the cycle of the year. This is not
> an imaginary phenomena, but based on very real physical
> substances.
>
> make living people. Where is the proof that Sudar Singh
> and Rebazar Tarzs were - or are - living people who had,
> or have now, physical bodies to prove it?
>
>
> ? ?Hey! There goes Godzilla! Did you see him?
>
> Etznab
Etznab,
Jasmyn
---------------------------------------------------------
Sean replies:
"jasmyn" these comments you make are indeed your own opinions and they do
have value. I must have heard similar approaches be well-meaning Eckists
1000 times over the years, and you have done a very good job of expressing
these "standard" thoughts and advice by rote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning
I want to take this a little further though and add some of my own opinions
about this approach in this instance, and there may be some useful
reflections about the person you were attemtping to "counsell" but they left
the teaching anyway. Up to you if you get the gist of this or not, and given
the obvious likelihood that I'm on your block sender list anyway doesn't
matter to me in the least. For what I say here now and always is more for
others who may be reading in silence that any inaccurately percieved
intention which I actually do not have to force a change in your own
personal thinking, opinions or attitude.
So let's have a look at a few aspects of these comments of yours one at a
time.
"These are my opinions, you may feel differently."
What is the point of saying such a thing in the context of this thread? It
is self-evident that he sees it differently, which the subject of the thread
that Etznab started clearly suggests.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redundant
------------------------------------
"Even more, why think someone might make something up as the analogies you
gave?"
Are you really being serious here, and are you aware of how manipulative and
controlling such *why* questions really are for other people to deal with?
Apparently not if the evidence of your contributions on this site this year
is any guide. There not a long litany of deception and mis-direction on this
group by detractors who followed like sheep the notions put out by David
Lane, as just one example. Ford Johnson did the same thing when he was a HI
giving talks at Seminars with the full authority of Sri Harold behind him at
that time.
And yet, in Etznab's reply to YOU he has already stated unequivocally : Do I
have the right to question if I suspect deception?
Do you really not comprehend what this means, and how dis-respectful it is
to others when you utterly ignore what they say? The writing's of Paul
Twitchell as one example are chock full of his warnings to ECKists to be
aware of the deceptions of others, the media, religion, politics,
philosophy, mini-masters, and even including other ECKists.
Sri Harold has backed up this notion 100% since 1981 when he became the
Living ECK Master. The history of Darwin gross and many others should be a
bell ringing event, and yet here you are basically presenting the complete
opposite of the advice of the Masters. Are you qualified to keep pushing
this approach and attitude onto other Eckists? I say that you are not, that
is my opinion. You may see it differently.
[ Please note the intentional mirroring here is done for the benefit of your
own direct personal experience of walking in anothers shoes recieving your
communication style ..... ]
--------------------------
"So when someone talks about it, I take them at their word."
This, in my opinion, is a classic example of a lack of discrimination, and
is contrary to the teachings of Eckankar as I understand them. Let's go back
to Ford Johnson again as an example, and his utter lack of discrimiantion at
taking the dream diaries of a chela claiming to be the next Living ECK
Master and sending them into Sri Harold claiming they are true. What you are
offering Etznab here and every reader of this group by default is dangerous
to their spiritual and physical well-being. I reject it outright as being in
error.
-------------------------
"You are obviously wrestling with this issue."
That is nothing more than a judgement based on nothing more than innuendo,
projection, and false assumption. I know for a fact that Etznab is not
"wrestling" with this issue. I see the ongoing negative reactions and
mis-interpretations to Etznab's words and questions here as people
projecting their own stuff, their own "mentalized wrestling" onto him that
does belong to him in any way. That's my judgement, but feel free to
actually ask him directly to find out which one of our judgements is more
accuate -- yours or mine.
He is the ONE who WILL know, not you, nor any of the others here.
---------------------------------
"You are obviously wrestling with this issue. You are looking for
physical, historical verification about the existence of Rebazar
Tarzs. You have doubts based on what you've read, and you want
verification in that same way, based on reading about it."
I-messages or I-statements are a way of communicating about a problem to
another person without accusing them of being the cause of the problem.
Often, when someone has a problem with another person, they tell them so by
using a "you-statement," for example, "you didn't finish the financial
report on time!" While that statement may be true, by phrasing it that way,
the listener is likely to get defensive, and begin to argue. For instance,
they might reply, "I couldn't because the deadline was unreasonable!" or
"You are always pestering me. I'd get more done if you'd just leave me
alone!"
Another approach to the same problem is using an "I-message." For example,
the worker could say, "I really am getting backed up on my work since I
don't have the financial report yet." The co-worker's response to this
statement is likely to be more conciliatory. For example, she might respond,
"I know. I'm sorry. I'll finish it up today and try harder to meet my
deadlines. I had a lot of things piling up at once this week, but I'll get
it to you as quickly as I can." While this doesn't completely solve the
problem, it retains the good working relationship between the two people,
and is more likely to generate more cooperative interactions in the future
than the accusatory, "you message" approach.
http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/istate.htm
The above applies to the overall approach to everything that *I* have seen
being presented here by *you* since arriving. My unasked for advice is to
contemplate on it deeply IF being of help and support is the underlying
intention. The current approach is NOT working. I know that, and so does the
person you were counselling. maybe it;s a habit, and more than likely it is
just a matter of being trained this way and not being aware of other
approaches that are proven to be much more effective.
Reading anything by Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp and Doug Marman will
show that they never use *you* statements, except very very occcasionally.
Feel free to check that, and let me know if you believe that I am wrong. I
am not. But better than that is "I am that I am" whcih contains the primary
principle of Truth I am expressing here.
-------------------------------------
"Sri Harold unequivocally states the reality of Rebazar Tarzs"
So what? This is not a secret that Etznab would be unaware of. Plus, it is
NOT relevant to Etznabs post in ANY way. It's a distraction, and an appeal
to Authority, iow a Fallacy used in a discussion, debate or argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Firstly, let me make this perfectly clear. A belief in the reality of
Rebazar Tarz, or inner/outer expereinces with "him" is NOT a PRE-Condition
for being a chela, a member, an Initiate, a High Initiate of Eckankar or
accepting the teachings of ECK for what they are.
IT IS A PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL PATH WHERE THE CHELA GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS TRUE
AND WHAT IS NOT -- FOR THEM -- Harold's statements about RT are utterly
irrelevant [ except as a teaching guidance ] and HE does not demand nor
enforce a belief by any chela in RT in any way for them to be accepted by
Harold as a genuine student of ECK.
I believe that anyone who intentionally or unintentionally pushes a view
different than the above is seriously misguided and is not in harmony with
the Mahanta, Living ECK Master nor the ECK Teachings. Anyone who believes I
am wrong in this belief would need to be able to show me a clear position
statement in the Shariyat Ki Sugmad books, the "bible of Eckankar" where I
am mistaken before I wouldbe willing to even even reconsider my current
views on this.
Yes, that is a challenge anyone is welcome to take up, because if I am
incorrect in this belief then I really would like to KNOW that.
-----------------------------
Furthermore on this
"Sri Harold unequivocally states the reality of Rebazar Tarzs"
"Obviously" you are unaware of the numerous inner experiences that Etznab
has said he has had with Rebazar Tarz and others. It is a known fact that
Etznab is aware of the many and varied reports by others having expereinces
with RT during or before becoming an ECKist.
But all you needed to do was to give him enough respect to simply ask him
first, before going off on tangents that are totally ingoring what it is he
has actually posted here, and what it is he is doing and why he is doing it
.... which he has explained before ad nauseum.
For either you really mean this "I believe people to be sincere and I take
them at their word " and practice it OR you do not, OR you are not rersally
interested in creating enough space to discover these things about Etznab
and have something esle entirely in mind in your choice to post here and
offer such advice.
That's the way I look it, because this is what I see, and from what I know
this is also how Etznab looks at it too. he is welcome to put it anyway he
wishes, as I am not talking for him, but stating clearly what I see in HIM
and HIS positive attitude, and HIS incredibly respectful approach to others
on this group.
An approach that is NOT being returned in kind, except by a small handful of
individuals. HE is quite capable from my experience of telling the
difference too without any advice or comment from me.
The multiple use of the word *you* above again is intentional as being used
as in the moment teaching opportunity. I could have put it all very
differently. How could I have done that better by using *I* statements? That
being a rhetorical question i do not need an answer to.
-----------------------------------
"I think you may be coming at it from the wrong way, just my opinion."
Not so .... follow the three fingers pointing back at yourself. That is
where the error lays, just my opinion, but based upon knowledge and truth,
not assumption, not presumption, nor a rush to judgement.
The incorrect assumption being made is this imo: "yourself trying to
prove/disprove via *written* works"
I know that Etznab isn't that slow on the uptake. You are the one using the
words "prove", and you are the one talking about him trying to prove
"something" that Etznab is NOT actually trying to prove at all.
The reason for this as I see it is that what folks are missing here is that
THEY are the ones who have not understood Etznabs questions and are making
it into something MUCH BIGGER than it really is FOR HIM.
IOW the best solution here is to STOP PROJECTING and actually LISTEN to what
he really saying.
It isn't HIS fault be it his writing style or anything like that that is
causing others to fail to grasp his meaning -- I know what he means, without
needing clarification, so how could it be his lack of cummunication skills?
It isn't.
That you and the same mob of others repeatedly fail to comprehend what I
say, when others do understand is an OBVIOUS PATTERN here this year. And I
have said before repeatedly, prior to being block-sendered after being
mis-labelled and falsely judged for everything under the sun as if I operate
in a Vacume or something, is that *I am not the problem here*, the same
goes in this instance with Etznab - 100%.
Being A problem for others, and being THE Problem, are mutually exculsive
realities.
Luckily I have broad shoulders, been taught well by experts, put thru some
intensive training, and receive ongoing and very powerful and loving
support.
You [ love that word yes? ] are all looking in the wrong direction folks ...
with the exception of a few nameless but usually silent ones of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
-------------------------------
"Try approaching it the other way. Look to the
inner master (if you care to) on the subject, continue to do the
spiritual exercises, ask the inner master for the experience and the
answer you seek. Or not. Whatever you want to do."
These are naive and yet still arrogant and insulting assumptions, no matter
how unintended it may be thought or believed to be. Good advice of course,
and standard rote yet again. Ever thought of ASKING him first if he was
after this type of unasked for advice?
Look and listen please --- the above is written in every ECK book, every
pamphlett, taught at every meeting and satsang, on the website
www.eckankar.org so WHY be so dis-respectful and presume the man is DEAF
DUMB and BLIND ??? It's is absolutely ridiculous to say such things to him.
------------------------------------------------
So, more than likely, the above could well lead into this hypothetical
question:
I do not understand WHAT is so ridiculous?
Good question, so I will answer it.
I know for a fact already, from the written words of Etznab right here on
this group available in the archives of this year for anyone willing to
actually stop and look, that he is folowing thru on his particualr line of
enquuiry as a direct result of HIS inner guidance from the ECK and the Inner
Master AFTER he asked for the answers that you are now suggesting he ask
for!!!
And yet, again I say, all you needed to do was either READ the things he has
already written, or simply ASK him rather than TELL HIM to do something he
has already done mulitple times and for which he has been getting very clear
directions [ to him ] of how to go about it.
Who are you, and who is anyone else on this group to TELL him he's the one
who has got it all worng? This is PURE arrogance, and vanity but not on his
part.
My unasked for advice is to either change your attitude and whole approach
or just be silent and learn.
Thats what a trully aware ECKist would do, imo. Obviously there are a
majority here speaking thru their hats who think very differently, but maybe
that is exactly why you and they are here --- there is something for you
folks to learn whilst mis-judging the entire situation and believing,
falsely I might add, that he is the one who needs to learn something from
you guys.
IOW maybe "wake-up" and smell the roses perhaps?
Maybe be silent enough, slow your own mental and emotional meanderings
enough to wake up and realise as well that Shams the ancient Living ECK
Master of Persia has been around when discussions have turned to matters
Islamic and Freedoms? But that is another matter, is it not?
Just a simple suggestion to go within and ask, nothing more. and "Or not.
Whatever you want to do."
-------------------------------------------------
"But you shouldn't think it has an effect on the overall for others."
There is NO room for *you shouldn't* here. It is manipulative and
controlling and it is "power over" to the nth degree. Please just stop it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
-------------------------------------------------
"There are no right or wrong ways to follow your path, it will lead you to
where you should be."
Etznab is EXACTLY where he NEEDS to be, and exactly where he should be
already without you needing to say a word about it .... it's actually none
of your business, and he doesn't need your approval to be himself and follow
his own path. He is an ECKist himself and he doesn't need your
pronouncements nor judgments to know that there are no right or wrong ways.
He didn't ask you about this because he's clued up enough to already know
that. What you are saying to him now has nothing to do with him, as it is
all about where you are at .... so to focus on your own issues might be a
better way to go, especially given you do not know in the least what he's
actually talking about. And that's a a proven fact, and he knows that
already.
ECKists Learning to respect other people's space, and their FREEDOM to be
themselves and follow their is far more important than someone being
convinced that RT is a real being. No one needs you nor anyone else to tell
them "there are no right or wrong ways to follow your path".
Besides being in every book almost and on the website, it's actually written
on everyone's membership card -- if they can't read, then leave them be may
be the best option, unless they specifcally ask you for advice, or they
accept an offer you made to offer some insight up in good faith.
-------------------------------
"A couple of years back a friend began emailing me saying she felt
Eckankar was a false teaching, because she was having no experiences
of any kind, of seeing light, etc. It didn't make any sense to me
because I was having vivid experiences. The emails went on for a
while, she was intensely critical of the LEM and the path. I tried to
tell her of some of the wonderful experiences I was having, ........."
This is such a consistent problem that people face, and fail to deal with.
It's a shame, but that's the way it is.
I am not talking about the friend, I am talking about what you said to them
and how you said it. I am sure you didn't but IF you actually wanted to make
them feel even more a failure in ECK you couldn't have done a better job
than the approach you took. No wonder they left !
Why do so many always think that when such things as this arise with someone
actually asking for some help [ no mater how critical or out of balance they
may be at the time ] that the FOCUS immedaitely switches to themselves and
NOT upon the person in difficulty?
The VERY LAST thing your 'friend" needed to here was about all YOUR
"wonderful experiences you were having" [sic]
No need to feel bad about this, because it is an issue that far too many
RESA's, ESA's, and know-it-alls in Eckankar face all the time. It's happened
here in spades in the past and still happens here to this day,
unfortunately. So often long-timers tend to totally forget that newbies, and
lower Initiates are more often than not the teachers for the HI's and those
who feel they are so expereinced and so blessed.
But it backfires all the time from my experience and from the litany of
disaster stories I have heard over the decades from others first hand. To me
it's about being way out of one's depth and simply not knowing what to do,
or how to do it. And yet what happens with all this training that is
supposed to ocurr in Satsang groups around the world? because it ain't
working very well when longtimers [?] like jasmyn are actually presenting
the complete opposite of how such things are best handled above.
Like if you don't know what you're doing, and you don't know why it failed
[?] then what is giving you the idea that you're qualified to be giving
Etznab , or anyone advice to begin with? Shouldn't you actually work out
what's wrong, get some training BEFORE trying to *help* your friend and
screwing it all up in the process and then making it even worse by putting
out such bad ideas on a public newsgroup like this and believing that you
actually have something of value to offer Etznab [ or people on Sant Mat
discussion boards ] from the font of your wisdom and experience? <shudder>
YES I am being very hard here but there's a genuine reason for it -- this is
THE most serious issue [ imo ] that confronts Eckankar all over the world
today. The way Rich, a HI, now and before how all those others on Hu Chat
spoke to Etznab, and the way Ken has spoken to Garland for years is the VERY
thing that actually PUSHES people [ looking sand listening ] away from the
teachings .. it doesn't draw them into the ECK, it doesn't help anyone but
re-inforce a level in mini-groups of Eckists around the place of their
self-importance and proud achievement in their OWN blessings that they may
or may not have really earnt as yet.
And yes, I do get it that I am leaving myself open to some very harsh
criticism and judgements by others about my own self here, but that is a
price I am very willing to pay because this issue is far more important than
any flak I might have and have already had to take and deal with. But before
the canon balls start flying at me, know that I sleep well at night and will
take it all with a grain of salt. I know what I am doing, and why, and it
all sits well with me at present.
As someone said -- "There are no right or wrong ways to follow your path"
and I know I am walking mine, I know my mission in life already, I know
where I am heading though not quite sure of all the roads and laneways I
need to walk to get there yet, but more importantly I do accept my full
responsibility for it.
.
--------------------------------------
.... sorry, let me get back on track here again.
I would bet my house on the fact that the "friend" was indeed having
"spiritual experiences" for a long time, and more thna likely really
profound ones far beyond the 'falshy dashy lights and stuff' -- BUT that
they simply got to a point where they could no longer *recognise* these for
what they were.
The reason for this is usally that all they ever heard about was the same
suff that jasmyn thought was improtant to tell the friend that she was
having herself -- eg " I tried to tell her of some of the wonderful
experiences I was having.. "
You didn't TRY and fail Jasmyn, you actually DID tell them about all YOUR
wonderful experiences, and that IS the Problem here --- what the person
needed to hear about was the *wonderful experiences* that THEY were having
and yet couldn't realise it !!!
Why didn't you hand the matter over to someone better able to offer good
advice and work with the person seriously -- eg the ESA or RESA of your
area -- and please I do not want to know if you actually were the
experienced HI or ESA and that's why they contacted you. if so, please just
take a break and write to harold for some guideance on the matter, he'l help
far better than I can. Not my problem, but seeing the topic has come up I am
not going to ingore it now.
What is the point of Paul Twitchell and Harold [ and Doug as another
positive example] of going to all the trouble to lay out all the ground-work
and then to utterly ignore it when people are having troubles???
Basically Paul has said and written long ago the following [ not a quote, my
own words/interpretation so you go find it ] -- The real gems in the body
of Chelas in ECK are those that do NOT have all the dramatic bells and
whistles, nor the lights and sounds, nor get to see the LEM on the inner but
DESPITE this they still have FAITH, a genuine Love, and they still KEEP
GOING anyway. These are the ones who will really reap the greater rewards.
And my one and only personal experince story in this reply -- when a first
initiate I attended a Chela meeting with the RESAs. They were giving an
overview of things to aware of, and I said [ when asked ] that xyz didn't
seem to be occuring for me.
The RESA then ASKED me some really good questions which I answered as best I
could. he almost fell of his seat with a big beaming smile saying words to
the effect of "WOW, you have nothing to worry about here, you have skipped
all the minor stuff and gone straight to Direct Perception -- wow, good
stuff, don;t worry about a thing, you're doing just fine mate!"
I was still utterly confused, and did not immediately grasp how or why he
could say that --- but what he said was TRUE, and how he said it, and HOW he
enquired about my inner life was absolutely PERFECT. I left feeling good
about MYSELF, and what he GAVE to me out of pure Love and non-haughty but
humble Service was the confidence for me to keep going.
That;s what people really need, not another example of another "story" of
how wonderful the experiences YOU might be having ---- if anyone weants
these storuies they on the website, and in the books by the million --- what
people need to direct genuine support and the TRUTH .... not judgements.
anyway my final suggestions are this fwiw:
1) When you are out of your depth, move to shallower waters asap.
2) When you are out of your depth, try not to take other people seeking help
down with you.
3) When you are out of your depth, pass the matter onto someone more
qualified and with more authority.
4) STOP JUDGING other people so badly when they are having troubles, making
silly mistakes, or being critical of the teachings or their personal
progress or their lack of understanding of the teachings.
This path is NOT EASY, it IS confusing, the books and the Teachings as a
whole ARE contradictory to the Mind, no matter what the words say on the
Easy Way Discourses -- it's damn hard work and it is damn painful at times.
If it hasn't been painful to you, then you are NOT doing it right yet, and
are still on easy street.
And lastly, have some real comapassion and empathy for those that do
struggle, and actually SHOW IT to them personally through genuine kindness,
and acceptance that THEY are OK, that THEY are doing OK no matter how bad
ugly or crazy it might seem to you in the moment.
< aaaaarrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh> God it's hard !
Thanks for listening whoever has, and thankyou for the discussion here
Etznab and to "Jasmyn/Lee" whoever you are, even if you never get to hear
about it.
But a special thanks to "jasmyn" for her couple of recent posts to Etznab
here as it has GIVEN me the perfect opportunity to put out there all the
above which by some odd miracle has pretty well summarized EVERYTHING that I
have been about THIS YEAR HERE.
I canot put it any better than this, so if you still "don't get it", seek
help in other quarters, as this is the VERY best that I am capable of right
now, as imperfect as it is -- style and typos too boot! <G> .
Warmly,
Sean
Sean
RE:
I have tried to open up dialogue for History of Rebazar
Tarzs. I don't want to deflect away from and change the
subject. I keep bringing it up because IMO this is some-
thing worthy of contemplation. In other words, I believe it
worth looking at.
Etznab
---------------------------------
So do I.
fwiw
Sean
Rich
> When Paul Twitchell takes material from other sources,
> borrowing teachings from other gurus, other religions and
> copies sections from other books existing prior to official
> founding of Eckankar in 1965, is this the same thing as
> Rebazar Tarzs (or another Eck Master) standing beside
> him (Paul Twitchell) in their physical body speaking and
> telling Paul Twitchell what to write?
>
> As Eckists, how do we explain the copious amounts
> of sentences and paragraphs compiled from abroad, but
> associated with Eck Masters instead?
Have you really forgotten? Doug makes it very clear in his book. It's been
discussed and dissected here ad nauseam. Take some notes and carry them
around with you if you can't remember. Then the next time you are asked to
explain, use them. BTW, how often have you been asked lately? Never you say?
How often are you preaching this sermon? Seems like pretty much like several
times every month.
> As if there were
> Eck Masters standing beside Paul Twitchell speaking
> the very same words?
>
> **************************************************************
>
> [....] David [David Lane] also finds a key source for Paul's early
> quotes from the first published version of "The Flute of God,"
> printed in installments in Orion Magazine from late 1965 to 1967.
> The first few chapters mention the names of Kirpal Singh and
> Sawan Singh a number of times. However, by the time the text
> was published in book form, in 1970, every reference to Kirpal
> Singh, Sawan Singh and Swami Premananda had been replaced
> by the names of the ECK Masters. In even a few cases, some of
> the early quotes that Paul had originally credited to Jesus were
> changed to Gopal Das or another ECK Master. Here are a few of
> the most interesting of these quotes: [....]
>
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
Why did you omit Doug's explanation?
As you well know... :-/, all of that amounts to less then 1% of what Paul
wrote. And of that, only a small percentage is about Rebazar. So much effort
and attention to such a small discrepancy - documentia.
> **************************************************************
>
> Much history exists for Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck
> Masters, and given to the world by Paul Twitchell and
> Eckankar. My curiosity pertains to the plagiarized and
> copied material alleged to have been spoken by one of
> Paul Twitchell's Eck Masters. Was it really spoken by
> Eck Masters in the physical body?
You've convinced yourself. Why bother us with it, again?
> Seriously, I doubt that some of the respondents for
> this thread on Rebazar Tarzs History are listening to
> everything illustrated.
Seriously, I'm sure your right on that. You're like a record stuck in a
groove. You've gone over this and posted the same quotes and questions over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over, and likely that's an underestimation
There has been nothing left to be curious about for a _long_ time. Can you
imagine the joy when you finally break out and are free of this groove?
> It doesn't look like everyone is
> listening to where I'm coming from, or even where I'm
> going with this subject.
No need for real listening. Anyone with half a brain who has been paying the
least bit of attention for the last couple of years is well aware of where
you are coming from. So far you've gotten no where. Just the same old
questions expecting something new will come up. It's likely that every
regular reader as well as many passerbys have answered your questions about
Rebazar. It's clear you haven't been listening to those answers of you would
be still asking the same stuff. And right again, no one knows where you can
go with this.
Michael made a good point, which in typical fashion you ignored. So I'll ask
it straight up. Tell us what the goal of this massive effort is? Just once
tell us where you think you are going with this. Come on. Man up. Answer the
question for yourself. Then tell us in short, simple direct language. Bet
you can't! <G>
Rich
Jasmyn
<numberharmon...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote:
> It is my favourite St Paul quote... But it is a little changed from the
> original in the area where it says "See in a mirror dimly"
>
> The original was translated as "At first, through the glass darkly, and
> then, face to face."
>
> It is meant to describe the experience of Soul meeting itself, the "I am
> that I am" and the idea is to describe the lack of anything that comes back
> as you cross the void.
>
> In ECK
>
> Michael
Yes, it's a beautiful quote.
I didn't know that it was about Soul crossing the void and the lact of
anything that comes back, interesting thought, thanks.
Jasmyn
> "Rich" <deadm...@inorbit.com> wrote in message
> >> Jasmyn- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jasmyn
They're interesting questions you bring up. You've mentioned Doug
Marman's book "The Whole Truth" before, which is the best study of it
we've seen so far. Most of the things you've brought up in this thread
are probably brought up in that book, with lots of answers.
A lot has been undertaken on this very subject here in A.R.E. year in
and year out as a frequent topic of discussion by detractors and
others...along with many responding with numerous stories of actual
experiences with Rebazar Tarzs that many have, some of them talked
about at seminars such as by Fran Blackwell (see below). Not sure at
this time a definitive answer is out there we could all settle on
about the actual history right here, right now, in this thread, it's
just a matter of how we each might see it.
A frequently reposted story from Fran Blackwell's talk at the
Washington Regional Seminar some years ago:
"Fran Blackwell told a story which happened around 1953, long before
she had ever heard about Eckankar. She had been searching endlessly
for truth for all her life and was really desperate. One morning,
after a particularly interesting visitation by some beings in her
room
the night before, she awoke with a voice telling her to shower, eat,
and get on the bus. So she did. She was told which bus to get on,
when
to get off, and when she did, she saw across the street a preacher
talking about hellfire and damnation. She said, "If this is the
truth,
I’m outta here!" Nevertheless, she walked over to the small gathering
and listened. Standing beside her was a man dressed in a normal shirt
and pants who had dark curly hair, and a short black beard, and dark
complexion. He asked her what she thought of this preacher. she said
not much. Then, suddenly he asked her what is Soul? She stumbled
through this 3 times, as he kept repeating the question. Finally,
she
said, "You tell me". He then proceeded to give her the first
discourse
in her life about Soul. After he finished, the meeting ended, and the
group dispersed. The preacher came over and asked her the same
question , " What is Soul?" She said she already went over this with
the other person. Anyway,she told him again. Then the dark
complexioned person took 3 steps back into the curb of the street and
disappeared right before her eyes. She realized then that this whole
scenario was a set up."
This was Fran’s first experience with meeting Rebazar Tarz in the
flesh, before the outer teaching of Eckankar existed. She tells of
other times after as well.
Jasmyn
Jasmyn
I like that one, Rich. Good thought for the day!
Jasmyn
PS Was about to press the send button, when something said to go check
'Quote of the Day' on the Eckankar site, here's what came up:
Give your best effort each day, and leave the rest to Spirit.
—Harold Klemp
The Language of Soul
Etznab
> "Jasmyn" <Jasmyn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I know for a fact already, from the written words of Etznab right
here on this group available in the archives of this year for any-
one willing to actually stop and look, that he is following thru on
his particular line of enquiry as a direct result of HIS inner guid-
ance from the ECK and the Inner Master AFTER he asked for
the answers that you are now suggesting he ask for!!!
Thanks, Sean.
The other night I began contemplating the prospect of asking
for more information and doing more spiritual exercises to gain
further insight on this topic.
I usually do the exercises at night, before bed, ones where I
have specific questions. However, night didn't even come before
I started getting answers and insight.
Oddly, I picked up the book The Key to ECKANKAR (odd be-
cause I hadn't looked at it for a long time) and reading it brought
a wonderful sense of solace (along with the insights).
Last night I finally got around to doing an exercise and making
a tailor-made method of inquiry about what I was contemplating.
I have to say that last night I had an experience of the most un-
usual kind. It took a while to figure out the significance, but it was
a blessing to get an answer so quickly. Just minutes after the ex-
ercise. (It wasn't an "inner" type thing, but something happened
on the "outer". Something right in my immediate environment!)
One of the things I have experienced with the spiritual exercises
- when speaking for myself - is that I don't always do them enough,
or seriously enough. Then, at other times, I dismiss the answers
that come because they are commonplace, simple, or not what I
expected.
Perhaps, some day, I will share my recent experience. When I
find the words to do so.
Etznab
SDA
Thanks, Sean.
Etznab
------------------------------
Hi Etznab,
I'm glad you are here. Your reply an additional info from last night is
welcomed. That's great to hear.
Your sincerity, openness, and especially your honesty and courage to speak
"your truth" makes you an easy *mark* here on a.r.e. and other places.
That is not to say that you *should* be less honest! <G> The practical
wisdom of your discrimination of not sharing more than you have already is a
testament for others to use as a positive example, IMO.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/easy+mark
Take care
Sean
Number Harmonics
On Sep 23, 8:05?pm, "Number Harmonics"
<numberharmon...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote:
> It is my favourite St Paul quote... But it is a little changed from the
> original in the area where it says "See in a mirror dimly"
>
> The original was translated as "At first, through the glass darkly, and
> then, face to face."
>
> It is meant to describe the experience of Soul meeting itself, the "I am
> that I am" and the idea is to describe the lack of anything that comes
> back
> as you cross the void.
>
> In ECK
>
> Michael
Yes, it's a beautiful quote.
I didn't know that it was about Soul crossing the void and the lact of
anything that comes back, interesting thought, thanks.
Jasmyn
......
Hya Jasmyn
A lot of what Saint Paul talked about was connected with out of body travel,
going to inner worlds, etc. There was an excellent book that looked at what
words were inserted by the church into his thoughts and letters, which made
him looked more of a social organisor than a spiritual giant, but I can't
recall the details of it off hand. It may have been Robert Graves, not sure.
I had a period of a year where I met the man on the inner three times, and
each time I was completely astounded at the sheer power of his presence. I
could not recall any specific thing, even though he spoke at length over the
course of several hours each meeting ... But I can still feel the pure love
that came with the power.
I woke up saying "This is a Master of the ECK like no other" ...
Little snippets, such as Jesus where he says "Go unto where the wind lieth
(blows)" and Saint Paul "I went with a man unto the third heaven, whether in
the body of out of it I know not" all point towards an intimate grasp of the
Light and Sound and out of body awareness.
What I am finding is that a lot of modern Christians are starting to come
back to this notion of experiencing other levels of existence, and looking
at the gnostic experience of "knowing" all over again.
Anyway ... Got to get to ceaning up after the dust storm ... You know what
they call it? Bull Dust!
Sounds a little like a.r.e. Clouds of Bulldust that gets into everything ...
LOL
Michael
> "Rich" <deadm...@inorbit.com> wrote in message
>
> news:h9d49...@news2.newsguy.com...
>
>
>
> > Jasmyn wrote:
>
> > Excellent post Jasmyn. ?Thanks.
>
> > ` ? ? ? ? ? ? ?o
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ~/|
> > ? ? ? ? ? ?_/ |\
> > ? ? ? ? ? ?/ ?| \
> > ? ? ? ? ?-/ ? | ?\
> > ? ? ? ? _/____|___\_
> > Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
>
> >> Physical records are fine. ?But I think experience trumps all for any
> >> individual. ?At times such things seem to be meant as one's own
> >> personal truth, not something that can always be proven to someone
> >> else, because people are at such different places in their spiritual
> >> life.
>
> >> Within a group of like minded individuals who are exploring in the
> >> same ways they sometimes share their experiences with others. Lots of
> >> people within Eckankar have talked about meeting Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> >> My favorite saying from Paul Twitchell I sometimes quote to my family
> >> is: "Patience is the key to life". I like that as it can be
> >> interpreted as the answer to so many things. When we are patient, even
> >> if it takes many, many years, the answers we are seeking come, if we
> >> ask we're given the answer, that's what I've found to be true.
>
> >> It may seem at first off subject, but somehow this reminds me of what
> >> I was just reading in Phil Morimitsu's book IN THE COMPANY OF ECK
> >> MASTERS from the chapter 'Church'. ?He had gone into a church to get
> >> warm, and read an inscription on the base of a statue which was the
> >> thirteenth chapter of St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians:
>
> >> [quote] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not
> >> love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ?And if I have prophetic
> >> powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have
> >> all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am
> >> nothing. ?If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be
> >> burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
>
> >> Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not
> >> arrogant or rude. ?Love does not insist on its own way; it is not
> >> irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in
> >> the right. ?Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all
> >> things, endures all things.
>
> >> Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for
> >> tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. ?For
> >> our knowledge is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect
> >> will pass away. ?When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought
> >> like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up
> >> childish ways. ?For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to
> >> face. ?Now I know in part, then I shall understand fully even as I
> >> have been fully understood. ?So faith, hope, love abide, these three;
> >> but the greatest of these is love. ?[end quote]
SDA
"Sean" <lostincy...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4abb038a$0$6090$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
In a previous post jasmyn said :
"So when someone talks about it, I take them at their word."
My initial part of reply was this :
"This, in my opinion, is a classic example of a lack of discrimination, and
is contrary to the teachings of Eckankar as I understand them. "
On going to bed last night I took a few moments to prepare myself by reading
the ECKANKAR published book Letters to Gail - Volume III
before to long I came across this from Paul as he was giving Gail some tips
about Soul Projection via the Dream State.
AT which point he said to Gail the following on page 145:
" There is a difference between moving through space, even going upward in
space, and movement between the planes. I make this statement with the idea
of charging your mind with some thinking -- for you are to begin wondering
how such a phenomenum occurs. If you get an answer, let me know.
"You should never let a statement of mine go unchallenged. You shouldn't let
me make flat statements and then leave; nor should you let anybody else do
that. It's often annoying to a man to be challenged by a woman, but that is
the only way you can learn. I will make statements at times to see if you
will try to think them out and challenge me."
Paul Twitchell - LTG III
--------------------------------------
Now, this is actually interesting on two fronts. The first should be
obvious - do not take other people's statements on face value.
The second is also very timely here right now ... it's the parts that say
"charging your mind with some thinking"
"to see if you will try to think them out"
IMO, people would be wise to not make blanket statements or push a
particular line about about the teachings that end up being so biased and
out of balance as to turn people away from the fundamental tools given by
God to all people to survive and thrive on this earth.
-----------------------------------
Now of course the above quotes by Paul are simply "words in a book" and
those present here would probably realise the rote formula in Eckankar that
the True teachings will never be found in the written works but within.
So by all means, consider the text carefully, and consider it within the the
context of the entire teaching and your own personal experiences and
knowledge. In fact, maybe even CHALLENGE the quote or my interpretation of
it and why I see that it is so appropriate for the 'group" here in this
moment.
Regards Sean
SDA
"Number Harmonics" <numberh...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:h9gvua$7ud$1...@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
>
> Sounds a little like a.r.e. Clouds of Bulldust that gets into everything
> ... LOL
>
> Michael
Sounds like karma to me.
One could look at it as a series of teaching moment, or another opportunity
to ...... ?
LOL
Etznab
Rich,
Doug makes it clear in his book who (or what) is
Rebazar Tarzs?
(Hey. That's a really good question, I think. Why
don't you go and ask him and then grace us with
the current conclusion. If there even is one, accord-
ing to Doug.)
Was that statement? Or opinion? (the first of the
books was to be considered as "poetry"?)
Michael made a point that I ignored? Was it this?
"Questions regarding the existence of Rebazar: The
easy solution is to meet the guy. That has to be the
destination, and I can't help but get the sense in
Rich's question that this ISN'T the goal. I may be
wrong, of course.
"If you don't have the right goal in mind, what use
are the questions?
"(IMHO)
"Michael"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/ff038f60ea04ead3?hl=en#
Far back as 2005, Rich, I clarified my goal about
researching Rebazar Tarzs history. That was at TS
TheTruthSeeker site. What is this now? 2009?
Over the years I reiterated it again and again that
the goal was basically to put the stories (& history)
for Rebazar Tarzs into "context" for myself.
I was basically looking to clarify fact from fiction,
legend from myth, etc. Because it mattered to me!
Now most, if not all the stories and history about
Rebazar Tarzs were not authored by me. I had to
search many records and ask many questions just
to explore the written content. I also had to look at
(at least consider) what written records might have
been revised, and by who, etc. Not so easy things
to do.
Part of researching history and determining fact
from fiction, etc., is getting to know the subject
well. Not taking for granted that everything is true.
Remember, I went to great lengths putting much
about Rebazar Tarzs on a timeline - the history -
& LOOKED AT IT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER!
I'm still getting to know this subject, Rich. And
I'm still learning. This is a major part of the goal.
Etznab
SDA
Rich says to Eztnab::
No need for real listening.
Anyone with half a brain who has been paying the least bit of attention for
the last couple of years is well aware of where you are coming from.
and then Rich says to Etznab ::
Tell us what the goal of this massive effort is?
Just once tell us where you think you are going with this.
Come on. Man up.
Etznab responds to Rich ::
Far back as 2005, Rich, I clarified my goal about
researching Rebazar Tarzs history. That was at TS
TheTruthSeeker site. What is this now? 2009?
Over the years I reiterated it again and again that
the goal was basically to put the stories (& history)
for Rebazar Tarzs into "context" for myself.
I was basically looking to clarify fact from fiction,
legend from myth, etc. Because it mattered to me!
I'm still getting to know this subject, Rich. And
I'm still learning. This is a major part of the goal.
Etznab
-------------------------------------------------
Dear Etznab --
Really mate I am getting SICK AND TIRED of you always repeating what your
goals and purpose is in reseaching Eckankar history in particular RT.
ENOUGH already -- I know what you are about, what your purpose is and your
goal of where you are going with this, and given that you have REPEATED IT
AD NAUSEUM here for years I am sure that everyone else here MUST be aware of
it because it is so damn OBVIOUS.
How many times are you going to REPEAT YOURSELF here?
Really -- tsk tsk tsk ..... people aren't stupid you know *WE* get it !!!
And everyone has EARS you know, so *WE* have all listened to you before!
*wink*
SDA
Meister Eckhart
Obedience is detachment from the self. This is the most radical detachment
of all. But what is the self? The self is the principle of reason and
responsibility in us. It is the root of freedom, it is what makes us men.
Bede Griffiths
The essence of the Way is detachment.
Bodhidharma
To be consistently effective, you must put a certain distance between
yourself and what happens to you on the golf course. This is not
indifference, it's detachment.
Sam Snead
What is attempted in these film is of course a synthesis. But it can be seen
by someone who has his feet in both cultures. Someone who will bring to bear
on the films involvement and detachment in equal measure.
Satyajit Ray
"Love is an attachment to another self. Humor is a form of self-detachment -
a way of looking at one's existence, one's misfortune, or one's discomfort.
If you really love, if you really know how to laugh, the result is the same:
you forget yourself."
"Love consists not in feeling great things but in having great detachment
and in suffering for the Beloved."
"Living in solitude, eating lightly, controlling the thought, word, and
deed; ever absorbed in yoga of meditation, and taking refuge in detachment."
"Recently, increasing numbers of Westerners in revolt against what they have
found to be the shallow, gadget-dominated, spiritually empty civilization of
the West have turned to "Hinduism" in search of greater meaning or purpose
in life. There is no doubt that the great Hindu tradition offers profound
spiritual insights, as well as techniques for attaining self-realization,
detachment, and even ecstasy."
BALANCE
"The stability which lies in the Godhead: all is completely in balance in
God's universal body. The principle of unity, or oneness, but in the lower
worlds this unity is simulated by the interchange between the pairs of
opposites.
-Eckankar Dictionary
The ability to live a detached life rich or poor probable counts in God's
eyes more than bank balance l guess. Nature reflects balance. My motto is
moderation;not too little and not too much in all things.
And when things get dark, l know the sun will rise again.
Kwame Nyame
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:56 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Life goes up and down. We have times when everything is going our
way, but there are also times when we're at the bottom. lf we keep ourselves
open to Spirit,there will be an equal balance.
This is what is meant by the detached state.
When our fortunes hit bottom, we surrender to Spirit.
Then we can go back up more naturally, and we'll maintain this rhythm
of life.
As life goes on around us, the detached state is that which runs right
through the center, we are the balanced individual working in the Soul
consciousness.
How to Find God
Harold Klemp
Number Harmonics
"SDA" <jij...@sri.net.au> wrote in message
news:4abc0d0d$0$1780$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
lol
M
>
SDA
Well if ya gotta go, ya gotta go --- don't let me stop you !
GO
Jasmyn
<numberharmon...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote:
> "Jasmyn" <Jasmyn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Must have been a great experience to meet the man on the inner. Keep
sharing what you care to with us. Glad you're here again...your light
touch and levity is great relief as well, it gets pretty intense here!
This inspires the thought of what a great project it would be to read
up about St. Paul and see what can happen from there. Sometimes
something nudges to find out more, do some research on the outer, but
even more important is the spiritual side of working with Spirit to
find out more on the inner.
Jasmyn
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Simone Dougal
Must have been a great experience to meet the man on the inner. Keep
sharing what you care to with us. Glad you're here again...your light
touch and levity is great relief as well, it gets pretty intense here!
This inspires the thought of what a great project it would be to read
up about St. Paul and see what can happen from there. Sometimes
something nudges to find out more, do some research on the outer, but
even more important is the spiritual side of working with Spirit to
find out more on the inner.
Jasmyn
**********
Hello Jasmyn,
Samuel Adams put it this way during the Revolutionary War
"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what
should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the
knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the
avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our
blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than
liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom,
go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick
the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"
It's been plagiarized into a more common saying that goes like this "Beware
the hand that feeds you."
All the outer teachings of Eckankar point to this primary guidance - place
your total trust and faith in the Inner Master, or what is termed in
Eckankar as the MAHANTA.
On a minor note re: "Must have been a great experience to meet the man on
the inner."
That is an incorrect assumption and mis-reading on your part - Michael is
reporting on what he describes as an *outer physical* experience. Have
another read at *exactly* what he wrote.
If we do not see or hear the actual words that other people say, it becomes
impossible to grasp the true meaning of what is intended. And we then go off
into tangents that are not reality, but misguided personal beliefs about
what is, when it is not that way at all.
At least that is what I have found from my expereince, you of course may
have another opinion about that, which is fine of course. You are entitled
to believe whatever you want about other people, be it true or false.
Thanks for listening, I have enjoyed this dialogue, as much as all the
others. I do not find anything going on here this year at all *intense* btw.
Again obviously you seem to see it it differently. Maybe it is intense
afterall, or maybe you have misunderstoood something, or perhaps the
intensity is somethig that you are bringing to the group yourself. I do not
know, but it is possible.
As a nice oldtime ECKist pointed out to me years ago - "What you resist,
persists."
That is a spiritual truism, the evidence of which should be plain to see,
nay obvious, on this group, if nothing else is.
have a nice day, jasmyn day.
Number Harmonics
On Sep 24, 7:37?pm, "Number Harmonics"
Jasmyn
....................
Hya Jasmyn
a.r.e has long been a wasteland of pixels with a few bright points of light
emerging. Truth to tell, for myself the only significant benefit to emerge
from the last decade here has been Doug's book "The Whole Truth".
In the meantime I think everyone learns to communicate better in the sense
that in War you learn to duck when you hear bullets! lol
As a curiousity, I had a pretty crazy Gnostic Christian sitting in my
kitchen yesterday, talking about biblical stuff. he was FLOORED when I
mention the "Third heaven" quote. He knew the Bible opens with "Created the
heaven-s and the earth" (Mutiple heavens) but he had never heard that Saint
Paul spoke of them as well
We didn't even get to the out of body stuff! lol
I do trust your experience here in the war zone is giving you something
other than scars!!
In ECK
Michael
Rich
>> and are free of this groove?
>>
>>> It doesn't look like everyone is
>>> listening to where I'm coming from, or even where I'm
>>> going with this subject.
>>
>> No need for real listening. Anyone with half a brain who has been
>> paying the least bit of attention for the last couple of years is
>> well aware of where you are coming from. So far you've gotten no
>> where. Just the same old questions expecting something new will come
>> up. It's likely that every regular reader as well as many passerbys
>> have answered your questions about Rebazar. It's clear you haven't
>> been listening to those answers of you would be still asking the
>> same stuff. And right again, no one knows where you can go with this.
>>
>> Michael made a good point, which in typical fashion you ignored. So
>> I'll ask it straight up. Tell us what the goal of this massive
>> effort is? Just once tell us where you think you are going with
>> this. Come on. Man up. Answer the question for yourself. Then tell
>> us in short, simple direct language. Bet you can't! <G>
No answer in short, simple direct language... Oh well, doesn't hurt to ask.
> Rich,
>
> Doug makes it clear in his book who (or what) is
> Rebazar Tarzs?
I think you are confused. Who said that? You, not me.
What I wrote was an answer to your question. It was about the small
percentage(out of all the words attributed to ECK Masters) that have come
from other sources. That's what Doug made clear in his book. That's where
there is plenty of dialog that can explain those words.
> (Hey. That's a really good question, I think. Why
> don't you go and ask him and then grace us with
> the current conclusion. If there even is one, accord-
> ing to Doug.)
That's a strawman question. Since it's your question, you can ask him. Yet I
suspect you already have asked it and he's answered it.
> Was that statement? Or opinion?
Mine was a statement which I think you confused with 'your words in my
mouth'. Or, you are not suggesting that you disagree that Doug makes it very
clear about the "sentences and paragraphs compiled from abroad" in his book?
> (the first of the
> books was to be considered as "poetry"?)
>
> Michael made a point that I ignored? Was it this?
>
> "Questions regarding the existence of Rebazar: The
> easy solution is to meet the guy. That has to be the
> destination, and I can't help but get the sense in
> Rich's question that this ISN'T the goal. I may be
> wrong, of course.
>
> "If you don't have the right goal in mind, what use
> are the questions?
>
> "(IMHO)
>
> "Michael"
Yes, that's the one you didn't answer; like mine I bet you wouldn't answer.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/ff038f60ea04ead3?hl=en#
>
> Far back as 2005, Rich, I clarified my goal about
> researching Rebazar Tarzs history. That was at TS
> TheTruthSeeker site. What is this now? 2009?
>
> Over the years I reiterated it again and again that
> the goal was basically to put the stories (& history)
> for Rebazar Tarzs into "context" for myself.
>
> I was basically looking to clarify fact from fiction,
> legend from myth, etc. Because it mattered to me!
Do you think there's an endpoint to that? An achievable goal? Can spiritual
experience can be separated out in black or white? Do you imagine there is a
hard line, a border between the physical and astral? Ones that separate
causal, mental, etheric? That they don't co-exist? That they are not pliable
by consciousness? Seems those would have to be the assumptions to achieve
your goal. See what I'm getting at? Refer to what you have written/quoted
recently about Beingness or no real separation or gap in consciousness.
Actually I do recall you stated that you did meet Rebazar in an inner
experience, but after coming under the influence of Ford's brilliant
intellect, you've discounted that experience in lieu of doubt. I also recall
that you have written that you then asked inwardly for guidance about what
to do and were told to go on this research quest. I think that's close, yes?
Here's some questions for you.
What was the difference between those two experiences?
Why not doubt the second one too?
What if the first was genuine and the second one was implanted by Ford's
manipulative thinking? :-o
> Now most, if not all the stories and history about
> Rebazar Tarzs were not authored by me. I had to
> search many records and ask many questions just
> to explore the written content. I also had to look at
> (at least consider) what written records might have
> been revised, and by who, etc. Not so easy things
> to do.
>
> Part of researching history and determining fact
> from fiction, etc., is getting to know the subject
> well. Not taking for granted that everything is true.
>
> Remember, I went to great lengths putting much
> about Rebazar Tarzs on a timeline - the history -
> & LOOKED AT IT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER!
It seems to me that you have already done all that. I haven't recognized
anything thing new or of any significant for a very long time. What you are
posting here now are the same old quotes and the same old questions. It's a
seemingly endless loop, as if you forget what you wrote or asked a few weeks
prior. If you had something new I'd welcome it. As it is...
> I'm still getting to know this subject, Rich. And
> I'm still learning. This is a major part of the goal.
OK. From the dozens and dozens of your posts in the last few months, what is
there you learned about Rebazar that's made any difference to you, or could
be to the readers here? Be specific. I'd like to know if I missed something.
Seriously. Tell me something I don't know about the history of Rebazar
you've complied. I could be wrong. Just sayin'...
Anyway, I'll leave you to your inquest in this round.
Etznab
>
> read more »
I'll be back.
Etznab
Art
> Hya Jasmyn
>
> a.r.e has long been a wasteland of pixels with a few bright points of light
> emerging. Truth to tell, for myself the only significant benefit to emerge
> from the last decade here has been Doug's book "The Whole Truth".
>
> In the meantime I think everyone learns to communicate better in the sense
> that in War you learn to duck when you hear bullets! lol
>
> As a curiousity, I had a pretty crazy Gnostic Christian sitting in my
> kitchen yesterday, talking about biblical stuff. he was FLOORED when I
> mention the "Third heaven" quote. He knew the Bible opens with "Created the
> heaven-s and the earth" (Mutiple heavens) but he had never heard that Saint
> Paul spoke of them as well
>
> We didn't even get to the out of body stuff! lol
>
> I do trust your experience here in the war zone is giving you something
> other than scars!!
>
> In ECK
>
> Michael
I just read the following article yesterday about a Brisbane brave
girl ...
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26128605-3102,00.html
Now young Jessica can stop or continue her journey.... she can see it
as bad luck and blame the angels and demons for what happened to her
or she can see it as a wake up experience and count her blessings for
hitting the 63,000-tonne tanker in the very beginning of her journey
and
not in the middle of the Pacific Ocean among 10 or 15 metre high waves
around her... but one thing for sure, Jessica cannot blame the
tanker ....
for she went full on into it all by herself !!.... Then again, she is
*free* to
blame the tanker if she wants...
If you think A.R.E. is waste of time why you can't keep away Michael ?
I don't suggest you should, not at all, imo apart of the smart arse
and
below the belt comments that you often make about others at time,
you have some very insightful things to say. I believe that everybody
else and I appreciates your contribution here.
I been reading A.R.E. since 2000 and I have been trough the detractor
wars here, which led to the "The Whole Truth" book by D. M., as you
said,
and I know for a fact that you were one of the generals in charge of
the
attacks, ... remember ? I hope this 2nd seemingly war face here will
bring something good too. I really do because I like A>R>E> and all
the people here for what they contribute !
But since you have become a pacifist nowdays [mmm?], and good for you
for that if that is the case, well I would like to share my different
opinion
with you about the new and improved communication skills I can see
developing here on the group today... for these are not the bullet
ducking
techniques ...those are not really worth a damn... they are the
communication
skills of better listening { or even dismiss something without
attacking it... }
and accepting Eckists, and non-eckists that are daring to raise
subjects
and sincerely held questions who feel free enough to not automatically
follow
the fixed book of codes, if they don't wish to do so... for these
questions
are already in the minds of many Eckists already. I know that, and I
believe
that you also know that too. I mean to say here, it is not like this
issue hasn't
been a part of your focus and ongoing interest with other eckists
privately for decades now. At least this is the way that I see it.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion here and for listening to and
accepting
in good faith what I might have to say on the matter.
Artemis
Number Harmonics
"Art" <artp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:82c28549-ef3e-4afa...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com...
Hello Artemis,
I never said a.r.e. was a waste of time. Well, while it is to a degree, I
said a.r.e. was a wasteland of pixels... I don't think anyone reading all
the rants about everything would really disagree with that.
I suspect even the detractors of old would agree that Doug's book was the
only significant thing to emerge from the last decade of a.r.e. and I was
happy to be a part of the process, but in truth, I played a very minor role.
A general? Call me general humour and I would be content.
Oddly enough, I suspect Sean's little quip about reading the numbers of DL's
wall, and David not getting that obvious that if he paid his airfair, he
surely *would* read the numbers... The subsequent comments about the
blindspot is possibly what tipped David onto the notion that he was missing
something.
Soon after that he went to the "non-deconstructionist" path. Maybe a.r.e.
assisted in that process as well, who can say?
Rich's challenge to actually NOMINATE and LIST the so called plagiarism was
also a wind pulling exercise from the puffed up bellows of the naysayers.
But the naysayers of old are not the same in any way with what we have
today. I speak with the good Doctor Lane on occasions (Very rare now) and
have always found him both civil and intelligent in his responses. There
just isn't that level of intellectual or humourous accumen around at
present.
But as to people holding different views and being allowed to? Of course
they are, and will. When the ruler of common sense is run over most of the
projections and concepts that some people hold to be true, the arguments
often fail to hold water, but people will believe what they will.
I would not say I have become a Pacifist, though. Now would I have said I
was ever at war... I simply sit and look for the funny bits.
Second War? Well, I think I missed it. I see a lot of carping and brow
beating, but that just seems posturing to me, and not really my thing.
Wishing you the best
Mikchael
Rich
Kinpa
> On Sep 28, 6:17 am, "Number Harmonics"
>
> <numberharmon...@spam.aapt.net.au> wrote:
> > Hello Artemis,
>
> > I never said a.r.e. was a waste of time. Well, while it is to a degree, I
> > said a.r.e. was a wasteland of pixels... I don't think anyone reading all
> > the rants about everything would really disagree with that.
>
>
> > beating, but that just seems posturing to me, and not really my thing.
>
> > Wishing you the best
>
> > Mikchael
>
> copy of the letter you said you received from the US Federal Reserve
> explaining it was a public institution and not a private entity?
>
> JR
the Fed is most certainly NOT a public institution, not by any
means...it has several private owners that get the profit made every
time our government buys paper money from them...and i wouldnt pay to
much attention from the lip service given in any letter by them
anyhow...
Etznab
> Thirty-eight years and one day after the death of
> Paul Twitchell - modern day founder of Eckankar -
> I was moved to consider the following words about
> his purported "guru" Rebazar Tarzs:
>
> "said to be over five hundred years old"
>
> There is much information about Rebazar Tarzs
> I have looked at. Including what appeared in most
> of Paul Twitchell's books and writings. I can't say
> beyond a reasonable doubt "yea" or "nay" whether
> Rebazar Tarzs is now, or ever was a real live living
> person, or a literary invention by Paul Twitchell.
>
> Numerous claims have been made about other
> teachers and masters that Paul studied with, and
> how Paul may have substituted the name Rebazar
> Tarzs for one of them.
>
> I don't know any people Paul Twitchell studied
> with who were said to be over five hundred years
> old. So I decided to trace the history of that 500-
> year-old reference.
>
> First of all, I considered the following:
>
> *****************************************************
>
> Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine:
>
> "Each has had a place in my growth toward the
> spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work
> for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship
> and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown
> me a lot of the other work during my first year or
> so under him. Since we have parted he keeps an
> impartial view toward me and my research. There-
> fore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I
> feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my
> work."
>
> Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has
> had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal;
> each is equally great in his work for mankind. How-
> ever, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to
> Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the other work,
> during my first year or so under him. Since we have
> parted he has retained an impartial view toward me
> and my research.
>
> "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that
> he is sympathetic and interested in my work and led
> me to Rebazar Tarzs."
>
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
>
> *****************************************************
>
> Sudar Singh is reportedly the person who led Paul
> Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> "[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a
> Tibetan saint, whom he said was reputed to be over
> five hundred years old, and was at the time living in
> the foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock some-
> where, but presently has a small abode in the Hindu
> Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir frontier,
> near Tibet. [....]"
>
> [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
> 1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross),
> p. 32]
>
> "I began my study of ECKANKAR under the tutelage
> of Sat Guru Sudar Singh in Allahabad, India. Later I
> studied under Rebazar Tarzs."
>
> [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
> (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
> p. 50]
>
> EUREKA! Here is this illustrated historical record
> about Rebazar Tarzs and his reported age.
>
> I'd often wondered why the Eckankar dictionaries
> - from past to present - preserved the phrase "said
> to be" concerning Rebazar Tarzs and his age. This
> suggests to me that someone "said" it.
>
> When I asked myself the question How did Paul
> Twitchell learn about the old age for Rebazar Tarzs?
> I wondered if the information came by way of some-
> thing he read, or heard.
>
> The Compiled Writings book by Gail T. Gross was
> (apparently) not the only illustration.
>
> There is another:
>
> " 'I suppose this protest period grew out of the fact that,
> shortly after the war, I had returned to see Sudar Singh in
> Allahabad. It was while renewing my physical bonds with
> Sudar Singh that I met the ancient Tibetan master, Rebazar
> Tarzs [Paul & Harold claim 1951], who is said to be several
> hundred years old. It was under this holy man that I truly
> began to perfect my study of Eckankar and to master the
> techniques of soul travel, the ancient path to God-conscious-
> ness.' "
>
> [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger
> (Copyright 1968?), pp. 59-60]
>
> Many times (comparing Paul's early and later writings)
> the name Sudar Singh can be seen replacing where was
> once Kirpal Singh. I asked myself the question Did Kirpal
> Singh ever tell Paul about a "guru" reportedly 500+ years
> old? I don't know that he did.
>
> Today I searched the history for Surat Shabda Yoga,
> Sant Mat & Radha Soami, but didn't find any mention
> about a 500+ year-old master. This led me back to the
> record of what Sudar Singh reportedly said.
>
> "[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan
> lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard
> much from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. This lama,
> Rebazar Tarzs, was one of those who had escaped the
> Chinese who had invaded his country, and it was said
> that he now lived in the hill country close by.
>
> "It was a hot summer afternoon in 1951. [....]"
>
> [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
> 1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross),
> p. 32]
>
> Here is this illustrated record of the "apparent fact"
> that even before Paul Twitchell had met Rebazar Tarzs
> in this lifetime he heard about him from someone else!
> The elusive, the mysterious (when you go & research
> his history) Sudar Singh!
>
> Ordinarily, someone researching the history for Eck
> Master Rebazar Tarzs would naturally consider history
> for Sudar Singh. And for the reasons I have shown.
>
> It gets a little creepy though when I look over all the
> illustrated references to Sudar Singh, or how many
> times his name apparently replaces Kirpal Singh. For
> anybody who has done research for Sudar Singh it is
> just as much an apparent riddle as for Rebazar Tarzs.
> T least, so it seems to me.
>
> Many years ago (1983-1984), I think, Harold Klemp
> mentioned something about a physical history to verify
> the existence of Eck Masters would be vital for the
> survival of Eckankar as a religious teaching. Something
> to that effect.
>
> Wait. Here is the quote:
>
> "We are making an effort to construct a physical history
> of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to verify
> the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way that
> historians of the future will be able to accept; something
> beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK Masters of
> the past. It will be vital for the survival of ECKANKAR as a
> religious teaching in the future.
>
> "As we began research in a number of different areas
> around the world, we got reports that Sudar Singh had lived
> and really was an ECK Master. Many ECKists have exper-
> iences with Rebazar Tarzs, Yaubl Sacabi, Fubbi Quantz,
> and other ECK Masters, but very few see Sudar Singh. As it
> turns out, he did live and work in Allahabad. Paul mentioned
> he died around the 1940s, but it seems to have been around
> 1955.
>
> "The research we do today will someday be pored over by
> historians. They will get into great debates about this or that
> crisis, about this or that person. We are living the historical
> moments today, and whatever later historians want to make
> of it for their own unfoldment is up to them. For now, we con-
> tinue to live our lives in the mainstream of Spirit."
>
> [Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246]
>
> Many years after that (2000?) Doug Marman mentions the
> word "vital" (in connection with Eck Masters), as well.
>
> "[....] ... Paul was bringing to ECKANKAR a freedom from
> past traditions while incorporating the elements from them
> that were vital. The concept of spiritual lineage was important,
> but the restrictions, traditions and worship that go along with
> physical lineage was not. Therefore, Paul described the spirit-
> ual line of ECK Masters, not for its historical accuracy based
> upon historical records, but to show that as the Sufis say
> there is always one who is the spiritual Pole of the world, and
> this light has passed from continent to continent, from race to
> race, from culture to culture, down through time. [....]"
>
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
>
> It sounded like a statement, to me, when Doug illustrated:
>
> "Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters,
> not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records
> ... [....]"
>
> How does Doug know this?
>
> BTW, there was only one other mention of a "guru" being
> 500+ years old, and one that Paul Twitchell may have known
> about from affiliations with another path. It was that Kriya Yoga
> "guru" (master), Babaji.
>
> "In addition, Babaji is reputed to be ageless, according to
> some accounts, and about 500 years old around the late
> 1800’s, according to Swami Pranabananda.[4]"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
>
> "Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar
> Babaji responded that he was about 500 years old at that
> time. [1894?] [4] [....]"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
>
>
> *****************************************************
>
> If anything, research I illustrated here shows that people
> (other than Paul Twitchell) knew about Rebazar Tarzs at a
> time in this lifetime before Paul Twitchell heard the name
> for himself. This is my take, at least.
>
> My research also shows that Rebazar Tarzs was not the
> only 500+ year old master reported to give instructions to
> people on Earth.
>
> I didn't have time, but I wanted to check a reference to
> one called "The Tibetan" I recall mentioned in some other
> group. Because, seeing that people apparently knew
> about Rebazar Tarzs, before Paul Twitchell did, I wanted
> to search the legends of masters said to be hundreds of
> years old. Legends other than what is found in "Eckankar"
> literature.
>
> Etznab
"[...] Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from continent to continent, from race to
race, from culture to culture, down through time. [....]"
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
Questions:
1.) Published books are historical records. Yes? No?
2.) Copying and plagiarizing the published written works of other people can amount to use of historical records. Yes? No?
3.) Transcriptions of verbal speeches, speeches given before several witnesses in an audience, constitute historical records. Yes? No?
Observations: It is likely Paul Twitchell used historical records to describe the Eck Masters and what the Eck Masters reportedly dictated, or told to him.
*********
"[...]
"We are making an effort to construct a physical history of ECKANKAR, looking for actual physical records to verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters in a way that historians of the future will be able to accept; something
beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past. It will be vital for the survival of ECKANKAR as a religious teaching in the future.
[... .]"
[Based on: Harold Klemp, The Secret Teachings, p. 246]
My comments:
Yes WE are making an effort.
More questions:
Why does acceptance require something more? or something "... beyond just the words of one of the Living ECK Masters of the past." ? What is it about the words of "one of the Living ECK Masters of the past"?
Could it be that so many words did not belong to, but rather were copied, were paraphrased or plagiarized by one of the Living ECK Masters of the past?
IMO this seems to be a largely substantiated possibility, but in spite of the many appropriated materials it DOES NOT necessarily amount to "actual physical records to verify the existence of some of the ECK Masters".
Etznab
There are pictures of the Eck Masters sold by Eckankar. There have been for many years now. And there is a picture of Sudar Singh? Always has bee a picture of Sudar Singh? A person, reportedly, who knew some things about Eckankar and about Rebazar Tarzs?
Sudar Singh as a substitute / pseudo name for Kirpal Singh or Swami Premananda could be the "coloring" for the picture of Sudar Singh, IMO.
***
What a long thread this is. I imagine One could write an entire book based on this one thread alone! Part of a single chapter, at least.
40028007-7008-1
Etznab
Who Are the Spiritual Travelers?
Fubbi Quantz
Gopal Das
Kata Daki
Lai Tsi
Paul Twitchell
Rami Nuri
Rebazar Tarzs
Shamus-i-Tabriz
Towart Managi
Yaubl Sacabi
https://www.eckankar.org/Masters/index.html
Evidently, that page was last modified November 23, 2015.
Darwin Gross and Sudar Singh? Two Eck masters who's pictures have been omitted?
Etznab
"In addition, Babaji is reputed to be ageless, according to some accounts, and about 500 years old around the late 1800’s, according to Swami Pranabananda.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
"Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he was about 500 years old at that time. [1894?] [4] [....]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
*********
Next I want to look at the following thread and verify the credibility of some quotes.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MXunjxsUGgY/ayOD795ZpyoJ
To be continued
40028007-7008-1-78
Etznab
Evidently then, Paul probably heard about "Ekankar" from Sudar Singh. Changing the spelling later and crediting the information to Sudar Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs. But do the later two names point to real, or fictional people?
wernertrp
Those who have a history muste have existed.
Etznab
> Etznab,
>
> If you are trying to look at the possibility that Rebazar Tarzs is
> Babaji, then you should look at Chapter 11 of The Far Country, where
> Rebazar is quoted as saying this:
>
> "The fact that great ECK Masters have lived with us for centuries on
> earth and are here today, is one of the most important, most cheerful
> and most hopeful thoughts that man can have. The light of the
> spiritual travelers is in no way dimmed by comparison with those of
> the ancient past - in fact many of the ancient masters are still
> living with us here upon the earth world. There is an adept over seven
> hundred years old living within a few miles of this mud hut. he is
> Babaji - the master of Yogda Satsang, and there are several other yoga
> teachers in the same group."
>
> Perhaps we see in this quote why Paul even brings up such incredible
> ages - because it is such a hopeful thought to show that such teachers
> are with us.
>
> The reason such ideas are rejected out of hand today, in fact laughed
> at, is because our modern myth is that everything exists within us,
> while in previous ages most people believed that spiritual teachers
> and reality influenced us from outside of the human brain.
>
> The presence of spiritual teachers in this world is therefore hopeful
> and cheerful because it is a way of connecting to that spiritual
> teaching that is manifested in this world.
>
> Modern sensibilities will reject this because it is at odds with
> popular belief that such spiritual thinking is just imagination.
>
> When going through all of your examinations about the historical
> reality of Rebazar, it seems to me that what you are really trying to
> do is deal with the modern day belief system you have grown up in and
> shapes what you accept or reject. In other words, unless we get beyond
> these myths, they will end up filtering what we see and how things
> look. We end up rejecting what our belief system rejects without
> realizing that this has nothing to do with truth.
>
> My experience has been that a methodical, logical and reasoned
> approach doesn't help us see beyond our beliefs. The lenses over our
> eyes are there through the whole process, and thus we end up
> reinforcing what we believe by reasoned arguments, as if we were
> discovering something, when in fact we are only rejecting what doesn't
> fit in our belief system.
>
> Anyway, I thought you might find these thoughts interesting. This is
> what I often see lurking beneath these kinds of discussions. We are
> trying to get beyond the lenses of our perception, because we know
> there is much more to life than we see. But our own lenses keep us
> from seeing life as it is.
>
> Doug.
>
>
> On Sep 19, 8:17 am, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > Not stating I believe for a fact Rebazar Tarzs was / is Babaji.
> > However, I wanted to give the following trivia for reference since
> > I mentioned on this thread another "guru" (that Paul Twitchell
> > was most likely familiar with) purported to be over five hundred
> > years old.
> >
> > This is reportedly a quote by Paul Twitchell:
> >
> > One of my experiences while serving under the Yoga Satsang
> > line of masters, was that I found one of the masters on the guise
> > of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for sometime, and very unhappy
> > over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem. . . .
> >
> > The night after my problem had dissolved the Indian Master
> > Yukestar [sic], of Yoga Satsang, appeared to me in a dream. He
> > said, "You are under my protection. I come to you to give you help.
> > Whenever anything happens that you are discouraged and beaten
> > by the world, I will come to you, in many guises, to help. Never
> > worry again about life's problems on earth."
> >
> > [Ibid., page 38. Also refer to the third part of this book.]
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
> >
> > This quote appears in first section of the link I gave. I'm not
> > sure
> > what the source book is here. Whether an Orion Magazine issue
> > of "The Flute of God", or not.
> >
> > I am guessing the master Paul referred to was Sri Yukteswar.
> >
> > "[....] Paramahansa Yogananda also revealed that it was Babaji
> > who taught a powerful series of yogic techniques, know as 'Kriya
> > Yoga,' to Lahiri Mahasaya, around 1861, and who subsequently
> > initiated many others, including Yogananda`s own Christ-like guru,
> > Sri Yukteswar, some thirty years later. [....]"
> >
> > http://www.babajiskriyayoga.net/english/about-babaji.htm
> >
> > Thus, Babaji was believed to be the master of Sri Yukteswar,
> > apparently. I don't doubt that Paul Twitchell knew stories about
> > Babaji.
> >
> > ************************************************************************
> >
> > David Lane mentioned that Paul was familiar with the "Great
> > White Masters" from Theosophical literature.
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
> >
> > I haven't so far researched that topic, but I wonder if David was
> > alluding to the "Great White Brotherhood".
> >
> > Regardless, I'm still looking at the apparent fact Paul Twitchell
> > (reportedly) first heard / learned about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar
> > Singh. However, if Sudar Singh was some "cover name", etc., for
> > another "guru" familiar to Paul Twitchell then I would naturally go
> > look at the teaching traditions familiar to them. Look for mention
> > of a "said to be" over five-hundred-year-old "guru".
> >
> > BTW, the second part of that Paul Twitchell quote mentioning
> > "Indian Master Yukestar [sic], of Yoga Satsang" sounds familiar
> > to me. Didn't Paul Twitchell write something similar about Rebazar
> > Tarzs?
> >
> > Although I'm really looking to find history for Rebazar Tarzs, my
> > suspicion is somewhat close to what Marman wrote about Paul T.
> > with the words: "... described the spiritual line of ECK Masters,
> > not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records ...."
> > (See Chap. Five of Doug's online book for context.)
> >
> > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
> >
> > Etznab
Doug believes in something written in a book as if what is written in a book is always automatically true? No, Doug. Written words can create chaos and endless confusion ... especially when person copiously copies from another person's book and then changes the names of the characters, etc.
For example. Suppose I copy copiously so many words from Doug Marman's books and not only change his words according to suit my purposes, but also change the name Doug Marman to Yogi Bear and claim the later communicated those words to me (I didn't copy, or plagiarize them). Also suppose that Doug Marman and Yogi Bear were both said to have a close friend named Boo Boo. O.K.? So according to Yogi Bear, Doug Marman's Boo Boo lives close to Yogi Bear's Boo Boo. And anybody who goes and reads this will know for sure there are two different Boo Boo's because it says so in a book.
Books say lots of things. Not all of which is true. And words in books can be not only copied, but manipulated and changed without the readers knowing more than one version.
You should really come back here again Doug and become reengaged to the kind of dialogue that once meant so much to you. Come back and get what you have coming to you!
wernertrp
Is this a copy violation of Mr. Gurdjieffs work ?
Etznab
https://web.archive.org/web/20111113085628/http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=236&page=171#m236
wernertrp
bending the Eck in knots and curves ?
writing poems ?
spill out the trumpet all above high c ?
running around in fucking esoteric group circles ? (Jan Cox included)
be crucified ? (in a fulniasnasnisch or itoklonatz way)
sing hu-nu-buh for 2 hours a day ?
search the google net ?
Twitchell told us he has 100% control over his full universe.
(for one day, one week or more ?)
(or was it only a thought of a parking place in a distance pre-reservation for some occurrences ?)
Henosis Sage
with your diatribe. I have known people who are hardline political followers who will argue their points until they are blue in the face--they know it all. Well, my response to that type of person is to not get into any discussion with them on those issues. I classify you as such a person. It is pointless. You just have to have the last word, always. I would suggest that you look at your motives for defending Eckankar and its leaders--just how pure are your purposes? My opinion is that you have a lot to answer for and have quite a distance to go in reaching spiritual maturity.
hehehe
I said as much and more via email years ago .... as another poster said "his lights are out" :-)
What's odd to me is how long it took to finally work that out?
I think part of that is is giving him the "benefit of the doubt" for years and a belief he was sincere and honest.
no biggy, shit happens. :-)