Life on Atlantis
vahana
I remember a few, one when I where a spacecraft comander. If anyone here
remember anythings about their life, landscape, the catastrophe, cities,
ANYTHING, I would be glad to here it.
IN Eck
Morten
Sharon
Morton, here's some info on Atlantis which you haven't been in the cult long
enough to see. On the other hand, what I've taken from the discourse may
indeed be printed in one of the "public" books, since the "secret" discourses
don't really have anything "special" in them.
And the following snippet is just to point out something that the eckists
should perhaps straighten out...Klemp needs to do some editing in order to
offer consistency in the eckmaster list.
Article 26 of 63 in alt.religion.eckankar
Re: Perception of the Other
jan4l...@aol.com (Jan4litsnd)
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Today 1:12 AM
References:<3_yu4.47791$Mg.7...@c01read03-admin.service.talkway.com>
Mahavahana wrote:
>On 28 Feb 2000 17:41:34 GMT jan4l...@aol.com (Jan4litsnd) wrote:
>
<snipped most of this, here's the relevant part>
An example of tenets of ECKANKAR are the ECK Masters throughout time. Lots of
ECKists have experiences with some of these ECK Masters. Phil Morimitsu wrote
about them in his book, "In the Company of ECK Masters".
Castrog, LEM, Time of Atlantis
Chu-Ko Yen, LEM, Chinese. During the time of Confucious, now is a
spiritual adept on the Akahna Lok.
Council of Nine-unknown
Dap Ren
Decates
Dayaka. During time of Lemuria.
-------------------------------------------
The eckists who did the long list goofed. You'd think that
the "highest path to God" which places such importance on its
"heirarchy" of that unbroken line of LEMs could get things
straight.
The following is from The ECK Satsang Discourses, First Series,
by Paul Twitchell. I got this series in the 1990's.
<giggle> It states: This discourse is your private and confidential
study of the ECK teachings. To reveal its contents to anyone outside
your immediate household of ECK study class will halt any spiritual
growth you may have.
ECK AS TRUTH IN THE LIFE OF A CHELA
During the ancient times, on the continent of Atlantis, in the city of
Sar-Kurteva, there lived an ECK Mahanta, the Living ECK Master of his
times, whom we know as Decates. The people had turned away from the
worship of the SUGMAD and were following the false gods of black magic.
Decates could forsee the future for all of Atlantis, but few would
believe him when he stood before the king and said, "You have allowed
the chosen people of the SUGMAD to be turned to the false and evil
gods of magic. There is no hope for you or for those who follow you.
because of this, I will leave this land and take with me that handful
who still believe in the ECK. The rest will be destroyed in this
drowned land.
The few who followed him west into a vast wilderness, which many centuries
later became known as America, had experienced and accepted ECK as truth.
Those who followed Decates away from the coming disaster were the chosen
people; they knew all truth! Each chela must accept ECK as a part of himself,
and as the whole of ECKANKAR. But it has to be a realization of truth, or
he will likely turn away to false gods. The chosen people are always
warned of impending dangers to their spiritual and material lives.
-------------------------
(oh, heck, why stop there? The rest of it is relevant, and shows how
garbage like this is used to control cult members)
Because man is outwardly directed, because he reacts mostly to life around
himself in the physical world, he seldom, if ever, sees the workings of God's
will. This is not unusual, for the will of God is not to be seen or
understood in the twinkling of an eye. Sometimes it is revealed only after
a period of centuries, and then through persecution and afflictions.
When the time comes, the chela shall understand. If he has gone astray and
left the flock of the chosen, neither he nor any other shall be able to
stand against the wrath of the SUGMAD.
Man has freedom of choice between the spiritual life and physical existence.
Without Truth firmly established in his consciousness, he will take the low
road for the pleasures of human existence. He has then to contend with the
workings of the Kal Niranjan, king of the negative forces, for he is ignorant
of what goes on within and around himself. This is why the man should
acquaint himself with the spiritual works and begin to discipline himself
according to what he finds in them. It is not a matter of getting in line
with everybody else, but it certainly is a matter of fighting against the
terrible resistance that the Kal force puts up to keep him from escaping its
nets.
Two expressions are used here, "The Will of the SUGMAD," which actually means
the surrendering of one's self to this inner spiritual force, letting it
guide and protect him in life. No matter where the inner force takes him,
there should be no complaint---no resistance to its guidance. Often
hardships come and we allow them to defeat us---even though, many times, they
are merely placed there for tests, trials, and lessons. If we pass through
them cheerfully, knowing that they are merely part of the obstacles of life
to overcome, the path of ECK goes easier for the chela. The KAL force wants
us to complain, to get discouraged about the obstacles in our pathway. This
keeps us tied to the lower worlds where Kal Niranjan rules.
The second expression is "The Wrath of the SUGMAD," a phrase used to replace
the word karma. God, or the SUGMAD, as we know the Supreme Deity in ECK, has
neither wrath nor love in the sense of human understanding. Whaver we reap
is our own karma and none shall halt it but ourselves. The SUGMAD gives life
to all within ITS universes via the ECK, and with this gift of grace we
receive, as Soul, freedom of choice. We are free to choose from whatever
life offers us, to follow the path of ECK or take another. The SUGMAD has no
concern about anything other than Souls and the life essence upon which Souls
exist. Therefore, the karmic debt is made by each Soul as It travels through
incarnation after incarnation, trying to find the Mahanta in order to return
to the heavenly worlds again, and become a Co-worker with God.
This is a basic principl of ECKANKAR: Soul must leave the heavenly worlds of
God after Its creation and descend into the planes of matter in order to gain
spiritual experience, which will bring perfection. During this time of
existence, it will ultimately meet the Mahanta, th Living ECK Master, who
stops its aimless wanderings and directs It again toward heaven via the path
of ECK. In time, he determines whether the chela is ready for initiation,
and upon doing so, will give it--thus linking Soul up with the divine Sound
and Light. This liberates Soul from the chains of the Kal forces and gives
It freedom to enter into the spiritual worlds in the presence of the Mahanta,
and return to the physical body during Its life span on earth. Upon the death
of the physical body, the Mahanta awaits the chela at the threshold to the
Inner Worlds and escorts him to whatever place he has earned in this life.
Since he does not have to return to this world againk spiritual unfoldment
continues for him there under the Mahanta, and he goes higher on the
spiritual ladder. He is still under the guidance and protection of the
Mahanta until he is established on the Fifth (Soul) Plane, where his first
genuine freedom is gained as the true reality of spiritual life.
(Note here: the cult tells newbies that the "first initiation" is something
you generally get in the "dream state" whether you know it or not, during
your first year of eckstudy. After two years of membership, you are "invited"
to take the "second initiation" and you are told congratulations! You have
now mastered the physical plane! I had a bit of a problem believing this,
since I felt I had a lot to learn about earth, but heck what did I know?
And at the third initiation, you're told congratulations! You have mastered
the Astral Plan! Again, well...I figured the LEM must know something about
me that *I* didn't know! <ggg>)
Therefore, we come to realize that anyone who has taken up the study of
ECKANKAR has placed his feet upon this highest spiritual path to God and is
one of the chosen people. When he makes contact with the Living ECK Master,
be it in person, by letter, or inner vision, recognition between the Mahanta
and that person will be instantaneous--like old friends meeting again. This
is true, for they have been together in so many lives before and are meeting
again for the chela's last life upon this Earth Plane. This recognition is
what we know as the inner teachings of ECKANKAR, the real heart of God. Until
the chela learns this and imprints it upon his own heart, in the form of a
recognized experience, the teachings of ECK mean little to him.
(Good grief, now that I'm uneckanfogged I can see how this works. I think
people can look at this stuff, use the brains God gave them, and see how
the cult brainwashes its members.)
We find one thing happening here: every experience that man has is personal.
He lives in society, is born and dies in society, but his spiritual life is
his own--his own personal relationship with God. This is why trying to live
together in an ashram is hardly ever beneficial for the chelas. Few people
can live together and get along harmoniously because of the different levels
of consciousness, backgrounds, and temperaments.
(Note: Paul Twitchell started his cult back in the 60's. He himself had
been a follower of Kirpal Singh, but Twitch just wanted to make money from
people without having to deal with them personally, or be resposible for
ashrams & stuff like that. He aimed for a more mainstream demographic group.
Klemp follows his lead...for example, when he started the public worship
services back in the late 80's or early 90's, he instructed cult members to
use the term "hu song" instead of "hu chant" so people wouldn't be put off by
thinking the cult was some "eastern" thing, although the basic "teachings"
are "eastern", especially the things Twitch plagiarized from Julian Johnson's
"Path of the Masters" and other things. see
http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult for plagiarism examples.)
Only the Mahanta can lead his chela, yet he never forces him into doing
anything; nor does he bring him into a higher level until he is ready. If the
chela is willing, he will accept the Living ECK Master as his own spiritual
preceptor and surrender himself to the Master; then he can expect to reach the
heavenly worlds, but not until he brings about this self-surrender within
himself.
(And here, we can see the subtle way this cult brainwashes people. You
think you're free, but we can see that the cult makes people active
participants in their own brainwashing.)
This self-surrender is a very subtle thing. It consists of abandoning one's
own opinions, of giving up one's ideas and preconceived notions about the
spiritual works. It does not matter how much he has studied metaphysics,
religion, and other works in the same field, he is now on a new path to God.
This makes all things different. What has gone on in his past is no longer
useful to him. Up to this point, everything has been a mental "hashing-over"
of words and the concepts writers put upon them. Next, he must come to the
realization that no longer does he study; now he enters into the works, and
all mental approaches must be dropped. He no longer stuffs his mind with
words and phrases written by somebody who has learned his teachings
vicariously. But now he must see that experience is everything, and unles he
has experience, he is losing ground. He is wasting time and must reverse the
process to find out what has caused his failure. This failure arises from
doubt--that one last thing that he cannot give up.
(Ohmigod, I'm going to vomit. This is VILE!! First of all, it was Twitch
who learned his teachings vicariously through the tens of thousands of books
he said he read of scanned. Twitch's early books used the plagiarized
words and experiences of others, and he replaced the names of real-life
people and masters with his phony eckmaster names! So...here, we can
clearly see how it works. You brainwash *yourself* because the Twitch
tells you to...and then you fill the empty stuff with the bullshit the cult
teaches. You must not doubt!!! You must accept!!! You must surrender!!!)
In the end, it is generally pride that he faces, the false mask of ego.
Since Soul strives for perfection, one of the last great battles that It has
with the Kal Niranjan (the negative force) is the giving up of pride. We
will do everything in the world for the spiritual works of ECK, including the
breakup of the family, but we will not part with the final thing--- our
pride, which holes us to the external world. Whatever gives us honors and
lifts us above our fellowman is seemingly more important in our eyes than
anything else in life. This crises with pride comes soon after one enters
onto the path of ECK, and it gives the Mahanta an indication of what to
expect of his own chelas. The truth is, he creates this sort of crisis for
the chela so that it can bring him to the point of decision: either give up
the worldly ego or follow the path. Some become the slow ones of the path,
the complainers, who are always asking why they never seem to advance in
spiritual unfoldment while others do. Therefore, we find that a skeptic
generally becomes the believer.
(Yes!!! Although this is one of the "advanced" discourses, this is just
reinforcing the same crap that you get when you start out!!!!!!!! And this
is *exactly* how I kept getting deeper and deeper into it!! I did sort of
doubt some of this crap at first, naturally, BUT...I'd had "experiences"
before joining the cult, and felt I was making good spiritual progress, and
wasn't complaining. The self-hypnotic "spiritual exercises" *do* produce
results in quite a few cult members....even if it's just
hallucinations....but by golly, if you still have any common sense and
haven't hu'd yourself into a susceptible eckandrugged state, you'd better not
complain or anything!!!)
Those who start with ECK in a state of doubt usually become Its most devoted
disciples. They learn one thing: The framework of ECK is a truth functional
structure (bullshit, a lie!) based upon the elementary proposition of God's
relationship to Soul and man's relationship to God. As said before, ECKANKAR
makes its break with the traditional metaphysical systems of religion and
philosophy at the intellectual level. Taking the stand that the traditional
beliefs of ontology, existentialism, religion, cults, and occult groups have
established a misleading logic for man, ECK says loud and clear that man must
establish himself in God via the Mahanta. Unless he does this, there will be
no success in his spiritual unfoldment into the secret kingdom of the SUGMAD.
Our greatest problem here is combating what has been learned previously in
the studies of other spiritual paths. Our thinking processes have been
damaged by the sopistry of the Oriental philosophies and religions, which
have swept the Western world and have caused changes in the religious life,
as well as in the intellectual, moral, and economic values of the Occidental.
This statement is not meant to discourage the chela from thinking, reading,
and trying to grasp what the Orientals are saying, but he must learn
discrimination in order to pick the best from the worst. It is true that
ECKANKAR uses many terms that seem foreign to the eyes and ears of the chela,
but it's simply that many times the right word in the English language is not
available to describe what I am trying to say. Therefore, a single Hindu
word might do the work of many words.
It is known, however, to anyone who is experienced in Soul Travel that he
cannot use a direct approach to God. The Supreme Deith is too magnificent in
scope and breath for one to reach and become established within ITS heart.
(A lie. We *are* in God's heart.)
I speak of the SUGMAD (the Lord God, the Supreme Deity) in terms of IT, and
not as He, as does so much of the sacred literature of the world. The SUGMAD
is neither male nor female in ITS aspects. The only way of approaching IT is
indirectly. In other words, we advance to the center of the Heavenly Kingdom
in an oblique manner and never in a straight path. This is why all paths to
God, other than ECK, fail! Since none but the ECK Masters have ever been in
the heart of God, we find that others who make the claim are giving wrong
instructions on how to acquire God- Realization.
Therefore, I stand opposed to all attempts by modernists or traditionalists
in either religion or philosophy to carry out any program which involves
entering into the Heavenly Kingdom by the phenomenon of intentionality of
directness.
The following questions are ones we must ask ourselves: "What is the object
of my experiences in the spiritual worlds?" The answer is that the purpose
of the chela's experiences in the spiritual worlds is to learn what life is
like in these planes, to know what to expect upon leaving the body. It is
also to determine the immortality of Soul. Secondly, "When do I know what I
experience?" This is determined by the yardstick laid down by the Mahanta.
Throughout the spiritual writings of ECK one learns what to expect in the
other worlds and is therefore able to judge what his experiences are, and
what is the meaning of them.
(Now, when Twitch wrote this stuff, there wasn't as much about OOBEs, etc.,
available to the world. It's more common now, and there's tons of
information out there. But...we can see how the cult sets itself up as the
authority....the cult member is to judge his experiences are according to the
writings of the cult. Klemp has also told chelas not to trust their own
interpretation of their experiences, and to check with a cult High Initiate.)
The chela must pay attention to the subtle things that go on within his mind
and heart. He must also give attention to what is essential and minimize the
non-essentials. In this case, we find four essentials for the chela to
emphasize in order to gain spiritual unfoldment: (1) self-discipline, (2)
true contemplation of the ECK works, (3) the practice of the (self-hypnotic)
Spiritual Exercises of ECK, and (4) absolute inner reliance on the Mahanta.
Self-discipline has to do with the feelings and thoughts one has during his
waking hours. We must realize that the Kal power will take advantage and use
anyone who is open to its flow. Discipline is an attitude which must be
developed. If anger is stirred up within you, it should only be for a short
period; then drop it and go on to something else. This sort of discipline is
established by putting attention on the Mahanta, who takes care of all things
within the chela's life. Each of the spiritual essentials is interlaced;
therefore, it is well to point out that the chela must put his faith and
trust in the Mahanta to take care of his spiritual and material affairs. He
must keep tis in mind every second of his waking life. When this becomes an
attitude with him, then he has started on the road to self-discipline.
True contemplation of the ECK works is next in line amont the essentials for
gaining spiritual unfoldment. The chela does not simply read a discourse or
a book on ECK and lay it aside. He has to concentrate on the inner meaning
behind the written words. He must try to understand, to gain an inspiration
from everything which he sees or hears in ECKANKAR. Truth is gained by man
in diverse ways. Therefore, he must think and ponder over what the Mahanta
has written in the discourses and books, or what he has said in his talks and
on tapes. God is the teacher, but since IT does not speak directly, IT uses
the Mahanta as the instrument through which the message of ECK flows to
manking. The chela cannot become a grab bag customer or a shopper with ECK;
that is, he cannot run from counter to counter trying to pick up spiritual
books and studies at his own whim, hoping to find something in one that is
better than the other. When this happens he becomes stagnant and cannot
progress spiritually. He starts losing instead of gaining anything. He must
stay with ECK if he wishes to bring about a continuing spiritual unfoldment.
( Have to laugh here...flashed to Klemp's hissy-fit about eckies studying M.
Scott Peck, because it's not the ECK...there's no love it it!!! More likely
Klemp is jealous of Peck's book sales!!!)
Next, he must do the regular Spiritual Exercises of ECK daily, whether he is
getting the results expected or not. The first thing he must do is place his
confidence and faith in the Mahanta, who is with him at all times. The
divine presence of the Living ECK Master is stationed beside him upon his
entrance into the discourses. This inner form has the same appearance as the
outer of physical form of the Master. Should the chela not be aware of its
presence, nor feel it near him constantly, then he should accept the fact
that this is true. It is the heart of the works of ECK.
(God, is this brainwashing, or what?)
He must practice the first exercise of ECK by following these instructions.
Take a comfortable set upon the floor; use a pillow if this is uncomfortable.
Take six deep breaths and sit quietly for a few moments with the eyes
closed. The legs and feet can be pulled up under you in lotus fashion or
straight out in front. The hands can rest quietly in the lap with palm up.
Start thinking abou the Mahanta, and, if possible, try to put his image in
that spot between the eyes which we call the Tisra Til, known to many as the
Spiritual Eye. Do not strain, but gently place the image there. If this is
impossible, then think about him. Next, take deep breaths while chanting the
name softly in the following manner: MA-HAN-TA. The word sounds like
this---MAY-HON-TAY. Do it slowly. Rest for a few moments and take more deep
breaths while chanting this name. Rest again and repeat. Upon the end of
the sixth breath, keep chanting Mahanta in the same soft voice while either
looking at his image or thinking about him. Keep this up for at least one
half hour and then quit, unless some experience is taking place.
(<giggle> I remember, once the kids were in bed, I'd sit down to relax &
make the transition with a nice cup of herb tea and a cigarette. Then I'd
trance myself out very quickly.)
Place absolute reliance upon the Mahanta. This means that during every
moment of the day and night, and in every situation, we should remember that
the Mahanta is with us. He is protecting and guiding us in the proper
channels toward spiritual unfoldment, although at times it may appear that we
are alone and floundering. He is working through us and in all activities
around us. This reminds the chela that he is never alone in the world and
that the Mahanta, as the Living ECK Master, can be in all places at the same
time. He lifts the chela out of the tedious affairs of dailiy existence into
the awareness of eternal life. We lean upon his presence until we are able
to walk on our own feet.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
No secrets here at all. This "advanced" discourse is simply reinforcement of
the same cultic dependency crap and mind-control techniques that the newbie
members gets from day one.
But...they *should* get their eckmaster list straightened out. That's
impossible, because Twitch wasn't very good about consistency in his lies.
Offhand, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure he claimed that two different
eckmasters "initiated" Jesus Christ ... or was it just that he assigned
different dates & places to those particular eckmasters?
Sharon
Hugs,
Sharon
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Galuuk
Yes, Morten, I do.
It's interesting that you mention your memories of being a spacecraft
commander. I have a vivid memory of working in what amounted to an air traffic
control center. I was employed there as something very similar to what is
known today as an air traffic controller.
My memories of the landscape was from the city I lived in....I don't know a
name. I know the topography was rolling hills. Virtually every house was some
kind of whitish stone or adobe, and there were many green trees and shrubs.
And I was there when the waters rolled in over the land. I had been taken up
and away. As I watched I could see my friends "sleeping". I tried to call to
them by they wouldn't wake up. I'm not sure if I was taken up as soul or while
still in my body. I do know that the water came very fast from more than one
direction. The destruction was amazingly quick.
Joey
At the end of information there is knowledge.....
At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
Jan4litsnd
>Mahavahana wrote:
>>On 28 Feb 2000 17:41:34 GMT jan4l...@aol.com (Jan4litsnd) wrote:
>>
>
><snipped most of this, here's the relevant part>
>
>
>An example of tenets of ECKANKAR are the ECK Masters throughout time. Lots of
>ECKists have experiences with some of these ECK Masters. Phil Morimitsu wrote
>about them in his book, "In the Company of ECK Masters".
>
>
>Castrog, LEM, Time of Atlantis
>
>Chu-Ko Yen, LEM, Chinese. During the time of Confucious, now is a
>spiritual adept on the Akahna Lok.
>
>Council of Nine-unknown
>
>Dap Ren
>
>Decates
>
>Dayaka. During time of Lemuria.
>
>-------------------------------------------
(Sharon):
>The eckists who did the long list goofed. You'd think that
>the "highest path to God" which places such importance on its
>"heirarchy" of that unbroken line of LEMs could get things
>straight.
>
>The following is from The ECK Satsang Discourses, First Series,
>by Paul Twitchell. I got this series in the 1990's.
>
><giggle> It states: This discourse is your private and confidential
>study of the ECK teachings. To reveal its contents to anyone outside
>your immediate household of ECK study class will halt any spiritual
>growth you may have.
>
>
>ECK AS TRUTH IN THE LIFE OF A CHELA
>
>During the ancient times, on the continent of Atlantis, in the city of
>Sar-Kurteva, there lived an ECK Mahanta, the Living ECK Master of his
>times, whom we know as Decates.
JAN responds:
You are the one who goofed.
There were MORE than TWO Living ECK Masters for the very long time period in
which Atlantis was in existence. And this list, of course, in not necessarily a
complete list.
Whoever put together that long alphabetized list of ECK Masters (you didn't
reprint the entire list) did not say that Decates was from the times of
Atlantis, nor were most of the others identified by their time period; however,
please note--Decates is on that above list, *as well as Castrog*.
A quote from Phil Morimitsu's IN THE COMPANY OF ECK MASTERS on page 268:
"Catching the inquisitive look in my eyes, Sri Decates smiled wryly and said,
'Total destruction will not occur for ten, perhaps twelve years. But we will
need the time to move far inland to our new homes, far enough to be safe from
the earthquakes, the tidal waves, and other earth shifts." . . .etc., etc.
Phil Morimitsu confirmed Paul Twitchell's discourse with his own inner
experience with the ECK Master, Decates.
As well, many ECKists have their own inner comfirmations of ECK Masters through
their own experiences with them.
Sharo...@playful.com
> All of a sudden, Rose Sierra sounds like she has her shit together!<GG>
> Imagine Joey, an air traffic controller!
<giggle>
Not hard to imagine...I think the keyword here is..."controller"! <gg>
>Long hours...lots of stress.
But I'm sure he relaxed after work in an "upscale" Atlantean "club"!
> I think I remember working on a nuclear bomb in my basement. All of a
> sudden KABOOM!!! Maybe that's why the place sunk!
Yep...you know, if you really look at stuff like this...
Hmmmmm...
Is it "past life recall" or simply "subconscious" stuff?
>
> You guys are a hoot!
>
Sometimes, though, well...maybe some of us just like to take a
humorous perspective on life.
But the very sad & serious truth is, this cult lies and hurts
people.
And...that's not right.
Hugs,
Sharon
> Jim
>
> Galuuk wrote:
>
> > Morten asks.....
> > Yes, Morten, I do.
> >
> > It's interesting that you mention your memories of being a spacecraft
> > commander. I have a vivid memory of working in what amounted to an air
> > traffic control center. I was employed there as something very similar
> > to what is known today as an air traffic controller.
> >
> > My memories of the landscape was from the city I lived in....I don't
> > know a name. I know the topography was rolling hills. Virtually every
> > house was some kind of whitish stone or adobe, and there were many
> > green trees and shrubs.
> >
> > And I was there when the waters rolled in over the land. I had been
> > taken up and away. As I watched I could see my friends "sleeping". I
> > tried to call to them by they wouldn't wake up. I'm not sure if I was
> > taken up as soul or while still in my body. I do know that the water
> > came very fast from more than one direction. The destruction was
> > amazingly quick.
> >
> > Joey
> >
> > At the end of information there is knowledge.....
> > At the end of knowledge there is Wisdom.....
> > At the end of Wisdom there is Love.....
--
http://members.delphi.com/sharon2000
http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult
Former addresses: sharo...@myremarq.com
scom...@cub.kcnet.org, demon...@my-deja.com
twink...@my-deja.com
Jim Agricola
I think I remember working on a nuclear bomb in my basement. All of a sudden
KABOOM!!! Maybe that's why the place sunk!
You guys are a hoot!
Jim
Galuuk wrote:
> Morten asks.....
>
Sharo...@playful.com
> Sharon wrote:
>
> > (Ohmigod, I'm going to vomit. This is VILE!! First of all, it was
> > Twitch who learned his teachings vicariously through the tens of
> > thousands of books he said he read of scanned. Twitch's early books
> > used the plagiarized words and experiences of others, and he replaced
> > the names of real-life people and masters with his phony eckmaster
> > names! So...here, we can clearly see how it works. You brainwash
> > *yourself* because the Twitch tells you to...and then you fill the
> > empty stuff with the bullshit the cult teaches. You must not doubt!!!
> > You must accept!!! You must surrender!!!)
>
> experience that Paul was accomplished at soul travel as early as 1950.
> Now I agree, he probably used everything he read to development and
> promote his path, but on the level of soul travel, he was quite able
> (even Kirpal Singh stated this.)
>
Hi Dennis!
"Accomplished at Soul Travel" is not a big deal, Dennis. You should
know that. The fact that Twitch was so impressed with himself that
he figured he could declare himself "Godman" and start a cult, well...
fer crissakes, it's just "astral projection" and no big deal.
> In my own experiences, I learned (before I ever knew of "Eckankar") that
> attachment to the outside world was what held us back, kept the window
> closed, so-to-speak. The method I was shown to overcome attachment, was
> exactly what Paul wrote about; surrender. Breaking the bonds to your life
> here in this life is everything.
>
Well, I agree that people may be "overly attached" to life on earth,
and afraid of the unknown.
But...considering what happens to people like Twitch, who are IMHO
totally amoral, not to mention, had a few psychologial imbalances they
should have dealth with and resolved before playing around with this
stuff, well...people may indeed be better off just focusing on life
on earth.
> Surrender is very difficult for the average person to attempt. It
> involves not only walking away from everything dear to the ego in the
> outer world, but a willing to accept whatever lies in the unknown
> blackness beyond. In my own case, it would have been impossible for me to
> do this have it not have been for my teacher taking me to Viet Nam. There
> one has so little to fasten on, attachments are readily discarded. But
> difficult or not, its my belief however, that that's exactly what each of
> us will someday do to pass beyond the "safe" confines of a human body and
> realize that all we really are is a dream. It's really a shock to the ego
> that the instant one first steps free of the human ego and realizes its
> true nature as a ball of light. And if one is not yet ready to accept
> this transformation, willingly without hesitation nor fear, then he's not
> ready yet.
>
Well, you know I can understand this sort of, but not really identify
it since I've never really had a strong attachment to earth in either
a positive or negative way. Part of it are incredibly joyful & fun,
and parts of it really suck at times. No big deal wither way.
> P.S. Not all the names of the "Eck Masters" are phony. This is where Lane
> fails in his thesis. Although he has adequately documented Twitchell's
> plagiarism, he then offers that everything Paul wrote about had to have
> been fabricated. I assure you that this is not so. Paul had the ability
> to take others out-of-body, but I doubt Gross or Klempt could. The
> Masters hidden from our view do exist, under different names in some
> cases, under the same in others. Paul did have contact with this
> Brotherhood (and there are MANY Brotherhoods about this planet.)
>
<giggle> Would you believe that many "people" have the same names!
Just recently I came across someone named Jim Hendrix...and Wai Chew.
Whether people/beings with these names exist on earth or elsewhere
is sort of irrelevant. The fact is, I think it's a lot of bullshit,
and a line of "eckmasters" starting with Gakko & continuing unbroken
to Twitch, well...the whole thing is a lot of crap. Because if there
would be this line of "masters" and Twitch is the latest "highest
consciousness" incarnation of it, well....that makes the rest of them
look a lot worse.
The ability to take others out of the body is not that big of a deal
either, and is not an indication of "spiritual wisdom" or anything,
either.
Now, as far as your "Brotherhood" or any of those characters, physical
or non-physical, sorry...but I am not at all impressed by a bunch of
characters in robes or whatever, on any "planes". I've read plenty
of "channeled" stuff, and I just take what's written for what's written.
Probably quite a few of these "channelers" start cults, like Twitch,
and some of them don't.
There are many possibilities, Dennis, and one of them that these "master"
types are simply those pesky entities that the Twitch wrote about,
deceiving humans and having a good laugh afterwards at your friendly
local astral bar. Or coffee shop. Do they have those yuppie-types on
the other planes? <gg> Personally, I'd rather brew a pot at home,
and fill a thermos & take it with me than pay $3 for a cup of coffee
with a fancy name. <ggg>
Take that dumb "Valley of Timor" stuff, the passing of the "Rod of Power"
on the Twitcher's birthday. Good grief, what a bunch of crap!
Actually, I like ritual...but not when it's used to impress onlookers,
or when the people involved are overly impressed with themselves. It's
just crap, as far as I'm concerned.
You know...okay, take the Catholic Church for instance. The outfits,
let's face it, are, well...amusing. For many, though, I understand that
all that stuff, well...they need it, maybe. I think of it in terms of
just human efforts to honor God, maybe, because I'm being kind to the
Church. <gg> But geez, sometimes you just gotta laugh.
I sort of lean towards practical, utilitarian rituals, myself. Like...
my own personal morning ritual. Extend arm. Light cigarette. Turn off
alarm clock. Chant "Move, Noodle" and insert feet into dog-warmed
bedroom slippers. Begin opening eyes on trip to coffeepot,
push button, head towards bathroom....return to coffeepot, fill cup,
open eyes fully...
It works for me!
> As for Eckankar being a religious "cult", don't you feel that "all"
> religions are "cults"?
Lots of things can be considered cults, Dennis. Depends on your
definition.
I refer to eckankar as a cult in an insulting, derogatory way.
As I've said, it's a lot easier to type "cult" than phony pseudo-
spiritual multi=level=marketing protection racket concocted by a
slimy little con artist.
<ggg>
>
> Take care,
You too!
Hugs,
Sharon
Rich
> Paul was accomplished at soul travel as early as 1950. Now I agree, he probably
> used everything he read to development and promote his path,
Actually Dennis, I think that it was because he had mastered Soul travel
and was able to work in very high states of consciousness that he did
_not_ use everything he read. He had the spiritual insight to select
only the core truths from the different approaches to spirituality and
God, and rejected all the rest. It was _after_ he had accumulated the
creme de la creme, that he was initiated into mastership.
> but on the level of
> soul travel, he was quite able (even Kirpal Singh stated this.)
>
> In my own experiences, I learned (before I ever knew of "Eckankar") that
> attachment to the outside world was what held us back, kept the window closed,
> so-to-speak. The method I was shown to overcome attachment, was exactly what Paul
> wrote about; surrender. Breaking the bonds to your life here in this life is
> everything.
>
> Surrender is very difficult for the average person to attempt. It involves not
> only walking away from everything dear to the ego in the outer world, but a
> willing to accept whatever lies in the unknown blackness beyond.
I was never much good at understanding this surrender thing because I
felt that I should sort things out for myself. Many people, as I did,
revolt at surrendering their will to anyone or anything, including God.
I now realize that it's really not the will of us as Soul, it's our
human self identity, our mental and emotional selves that we fear
losing. When we operate from the Soul perspective we know that there is
nothing to surrender. Our creative power and freedom of choice as Soul
is not something that we can give away. We are totally responsible for
all that comes into our sphere of experience.
The interesting thing that I have recently discover with the "Thy will
be done" surrender that is so commonly used, is that it works only if we
identify ourselves as our mental and emotional bodies. But it is
meaningless from the expanded consciousness of Soul. The will of Soul
_is_ the will of Spirit/God.
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
arel...@home.com
Rich wrote:
>
> Dennis Webber wrote:
>
> > Paul was accomplished at soul travel as early as 1950. Now I agree, he probably
> > used everything he read to development and promote his path,
>
> Actually Dennis, I think that it was because he had mastered Soul travel
> and was able to work in very high states of consciousness that he did
> _not_ use everything he read. He had the spiritual insight to select
> only the core truths from the different approaches to spirituality and
> God, and rejected all the rest. It was _after_ he had accumulated the
> creme de la creme, that he was initiated into mastership.
LOL...Appropriating other's materials arising out of a high
consciousness.
Only in Eckankar, only in Eckankar.
Lurk
Dennis Webber
> Hi Dennis!
>
> "Accomplished at Soul Travel" is not a big deal, Dennis. You should
> know that. The fact that Twitch was so impressed with himself that
> he figured he could declare himself "Godman" and start a cult, well...
> fer crissakes, it's just "astral projection" and no big deal.
There's' a huge difference between Astro Projection and Soul Travel. Besides at
which point the consciousness exits the physical body, if frames whether you
are an unbiased observer on a plane or encumbered with a "body". Being embodied
renders one with an added bios, hardly a feature of freedom.
This is only my view, it has worked for me. In soul travel, I find it faster to
Astral Project (float out of the body from the heart region, laying flat, body
in deep sleep) then renter and open the Tistra Til and move upward (from an
exterior level of consciousness.)
Paul used soul travel. He introduced me to the brotherhood in 1966 and I had
seen him with his teacher several times after that. As for whether Eckankar is
a cult, I don't agree. It may not be all he claimed, but in no way is any real
force used to hold a
follower to the path.
I know all the arguments, how he threatened about leaving, etc. he same
argument can be raised about Christianity, only more so. Remember, Christianity
threatens "ETERNAL DAMNATION" if you attempt to leave, hell, even if you fail
to believe! Talk about a religious "cult". At least Eckankar only threatens
rebirth for failure to open the vortex between the eyebrows. And in or out of
Eckankar, that "is" the truth any ways. Even if your a 40th initiate! (Or
whatever.)
> Well, you know I can understand this sort of, but not really identify
> it since I've never really had a strong attachment to earth in either
> a positive or negative way. Part of it are incredibly joyful & fun,
> and parts of it really suck at times. No big deal wither way.
The fact that you frequent this news group shows your (and my own) attachment.
A truly spiritual person has no need of such diversions such as wasting time
talking trash about nothing important. If you feel the need to give ANYTHING
your attention, you are attached to it. It's that subtle and that binding.
> Whether people/beings with these names exist on earth or elsewhere
> is sort of irrelevant. The fact is, I think it's a lot of bullshit,
> and a line of "eckmasters" starting with Gakko & continuing unbroken
> to Twitch, well...the whole thing is a lot of crap. Because if there
> would be this line of "masters" and Twitch is the latest "highest
> consciousness" incarnation of it, well....that makes the rest of them
> look a lot worse.
My memories was that the "Eckankar" they taught was a different form of
"Eckankar" Paul taught. I held and read from the Shyriot (sp) Ki Sugmad. That
version was glowing with light and alive. It was entirely about my life in
previous lifetimes and about my life here and now. The other students present,
each read it and read about their past and present lives. Paul's version was
about an isolated Sugmad, distant and descriptive. His version was dead, but
there are a few pieces of jewels in it. The real version is the description of
every soul, all of us, and it describes the moments where we awakened in any
particular like and grew. Paul's version was a pale attempt to describe the
undescribable.
Eckankar does exist outside of this planet, and in a much different form. Paul
created his own version, based on his experiences and memories. It is a shame
he used other peoples words to embelish what he actually knew as truth. But,
and Lane wrote, he decided to go for the money. And of course, there's no money
at all in a purely spiritual teaching; only love.
> The ability to take others out of the body is not that big of a deal
> either, and is not an indication of "spiritual wisdom" or anything,
> either.
I would say it takes a certain degree of learning. Not too many can do this.
> Now, as far as your "Brotherhood" or any of those characters, physical
> or non-physical, sorry...but I am not at all impressed by a bunch of
> characters in robes or whatever, on any "planes". I've read plenty
> of "channeled" stuff, and I just take what's written for what's written.
It's my opinion that anything "channeled" is astral at best, (which means your
dealing with some jerk who simply no longer has a body and not necessarily
knows anything about anything,) to purely invented advice at worst.
The essence of Eckankar, and any other teaching is, if you don't get it
entirely YOURSELF, keep you wallet in your pants or purse as the case may be.
It's probably baloney. (However Seth was interesting.)
> Take that dumb "Valley of Timor" stuff, the passing of the "Rod of Power"
> on the Twitcher's birthday. Good grief, what a bunch of crap!
Haven't you ever figured out what the "rod of power" really was? Think about
it, from a male, macho point of view. Think about it. <BG>
> I sort of lean towards practical, utilitarian rituals, myself. Like...
> my own personal morning ritual. Extend arm. Light cigarette. Turn off
> alarm clock. Chant "Move, Noodle" and insert feet into dog-warmed
> bedroom slippers. Begin opening eyes on trip to coffeepot,
> push button, head towards bathroom....return to coffeepot, fill cup,
> open eyes fully...
>
> It works for me!
Whatever makes us happy; right?
Take care,
Dennis
Rich
> I held and read from the Shyriot (sp) Ki Sugmad. That
> version was glowing with light and alive. It was entirely about my life in
> previous lifetimes and about my life here and now. The other students present,
> each read it and read about their past and present lives.
So it seems you experienced the book in the Temple of Sakapori which
Shamus-i-Tabriz takes care of... Do you remember visiting or reading
any other Shariyats?
> Paul's version was
> about an isolated Sugmad, distant and descriptive. His version was dead, but
> there are a few pieces of jewels in it. The real version is the description of
> every soul, all of us, and it describes the moments where we awakened in any
> particular like and grew.
You may be confused about the "real version". Paul's written books were
derived from the books located at the Katsupari Monastery and the
Gire-Hire Temple. Seems like you were looking at a different volume,
yes?
> Paul's version was a pale attempt to describe the undescribable.
That's true Dennis, and he said so himself. Today there is an
additional approach to the Shariyat that is being utilized by Eckists.
It is termed the 'Living Shariyat'. The emphasis is on each student
gleaning the golden tongued wisdom themselves, thru each as Soul
connecting to it, when it signifies in their daily life.
> Eckankar does exist outside of this planet, and in a much different form. Paul
> created his own version, based on his experiences and memories. It is a shame
> he used other peoples words to embelish what he actually knew as truth. But,
> and Lane wrote, he decided to go for the money.
I always see the misinformation inspired by David Lane, in people who
say this, when _all_ the evidence of Paul's life shows the contrary...
> And of course, there's no money
> at all in a purely spiritual teaching; only love.
Right, so Paul used all the money to make the teaching known. What
purpose would the works of Eckankar serve if no one ever saw them? This
message of Love would be unknown.
<SNIP>
> It's my opinion that anything "channeled" is astral at best...
<SNIP>
> (However Seth was interesting.)
Actually wouldn't you agree that Seth was operating from the mental
plane/SOC?
arel...@home.com
Rich wrote:
>
> Dennis Webber wrote:
>
> > I held and read from the Shyriot (sp) Ki Sugmad. That
> > version was glowing with light and alive. It was entirely about my life in
> > previous lifetimes and about my life here and now. The other students present,
> > each read it and read about their past and present lives.
>
> So it seems you experienced the book in the Temple of Sakapori which
> Shamus-i-Tabriz takes care of... Do you remember visiting or reading
> any other Shariyats?
>
> > Paul's version was
> > about an isolated Sugmad, distant and descriptive. His version was dead, but
> > there are a few pieces of jewels in it. The real version is the description of
> > every soul, all of us, and it describes the moments where we awakened in any
> > particular like and grew.
>
> You may be confused about the "real version". Paul's written books were
> derived from the books located at the Katsupari Monastery and the
> Gire-Hire Temple. Seems like you were looking at a different volume,
> yes?
>
> > Paul's version was a pale attempt to describe the undescribable.
>
> That's true Dennis, and he said so himself. Today there is an
> additional approach to the Shariyat that is being utilized by Eckists.
> It is termed the 'Living Shariyat'. The emphasis is on each student
> gleaning the golden tongued wisdom themselves, thru each as Soul
> connecting to it, when it signifies in their daily life.
>
> > Eckankar does exist outside of this planet, and in a much different form. Paul
> > created his own version, based on his experiences and memories. It is a shame
> > he used other peoples words to embelish what he actually knew as truth. But,
> > and Lane wrote, he decided to go for the money.
>
> I always see the misinformation inspired by David Lane, in people who
> say this, when _all_ the evidence of Paul's life shows the contrary...
>
> > And of course, there's no money
> > at all in a purely spiritual teaching; only love.
>
> Right, so Paul used all the money to make the teaching known.
Fact is, you don't know how Paul used the money he made from plagiarized books.
I'll expect a retraction of your "Paul used all the money" to be forthcoming.
Lurk
Dennis
> So it seems you experienced the book in the Temple of Sakapori which
> Shamus-i-Tabriz takes care of... Do you remember visiting or reading
> any other Shariyats?
It was in Retz. The temple across from government center.
> You may be confused about the "real version". Paul's written books were
> derived from the books located at the Katsupari Monastery and the
> Gire-Hire Temple. Seems like you were looking at a different volume,
> yes?
No. Look, i'll try to explain it to you, but this is going to sound like I'm a kook
(which is why I never talked about this in public before. I did tell the members of
my first Sat Sang but they really took offense, as they had been in Eck for two or
three years and I had just joined, and they had not had any experiences like this. I
soon learned to keep quiet)
There were several of us, around ten or twelve in my group that really did have
experiences of traveling in this and the inner worlds.
All of this took place in May-June 1970, while I was a Marine stationed in Viet Nam,
after I had gone through combat (FWIW, I was attached to HMM-161, flew out of Phu
Bai, as a gunner on a CH-46 helo, in January 1970 and had seen extensive action in a
place called A Shau Valley, southwest of Da Nang.)
Any ways, I was taken first to Agam Des, we had been given instruction there by
several teachers (Fubbi Quantz was one, got yelled at by him for annoying one of the
UFO critters - yes, there's UFO's there - did I not tell you, you would consider me
a kook?) After some instruction on the yellow pillows (nubies got yellow pillows to
sit in the lotus position on, the 'old salts' just sat on the ground,) we traveled
up through the main Lay Line just north of the center. (Lay Lines are powerful
magnetic lines that fade and grow and spirits' us them to move between planets like
highways. Where they come down and enter the Earth, it is considered a special
place.
Reaching space, we changed to one that took us to the moon, was shown one of the
Apollo landing sites and rested on the back side of the moon at that was called a
"way station." Ot was just a small little cave where spirits sat around and wasted
time, not unlike old gents sitting around a pickle barrel in Northern Tennessee,
talking about nothing special at all.) While we waited for the next Lay Line to
energize, we played a game, best I can remember someone called it "double Jump", fly
up into the air (or high above the surface - two three hundred feet - and bounce
hard when we came down again. See how many bounces you can get out of a jump or how
high you can get on a bounce. I seemed to remember playing this game before this,
but I can't say when or where.)
We traveled along the Ley Line at just under the speed of light. Seems I remember if
we exceed light, we would move into another dimension, or something like that.
We landed on Venus far from the main city of Retz and flew over miles and miles of
green gardens. We stopped once and someone explained about the gardens. (I had a
feeling that was done for every group that came though. Seemed somewhat rehearsed.)
When we reached the Southern outskirts of Retz, our teacher let us explore on our
own for a while. We went towards the sound of music (Paul wrote about this
orchestra) listened to it from the top row of seats, then generally headed in the
direction of the temple (all the street are numbered, even for NS, odd for EW).
Incidentally, I recognized some of the songs that Eckankar currently sells as coming
from Retz first. Whoever wrote them for Eckankar, visited Retz and heard them there
first. The outdoor theater where they played was laid out similar to Red Rock
Theater south of Denver.
I remember talking to a merchant, don't remember what he was selling, asked him if
he ever heard of 'soul travel' and that we had 'come from Earth', remember he
thought I was some kind of nut and told me to leave - I can piss them off on any
planet or plane!). Anyway we were late and got scolded for holding up the ceremony.
After you enter (no door) we turned to the right and entered a sacred room that held
the Shariyat. This room had a special name but I don't remember it any more. The
Shariyat was on a alter in the center of the large room, and had a beam of pure
white light flowing from it, upwards towards the ceiling. I say 'flowing' because it
was definitely pulsating with energy.
As nubies we were seated n the back on yellow pillows (the 'salts' sat on blue
pillows, and received instruction from three teachers, including my own. Then each
of us rose and took the Shariyat and read from it. When I read, the pages were blank
at first, then I could 'see' something, not words or pictures, more like balls of
thought, when captured in your vision seemed to open inside you , like pealing an
onion, and layer by layer I could see the essence of many prior lifetimes. We were
told to share two or three of the ones that were the strongest (they had special
meaning leading up to the present life) and many were quite funny. I only remember
one and now, but I can't talk about it of course. ((If you think you real cool in
this life, just wait till you find out what a jerk you were in a prior life <g>))
Afterwards we were taken on a tour of the library at the back of the temple, many
many floor levels, Paul wrote about this as well. It's just as he described, a
strange mechanism will bring you any book you can desire.
One other strange thing was just before leaving, I went outside and some of the
others in the group remained inside. After I came back inside they told me they
could see me, through the walls. One of them went outside and I could clearly see
him. Could see the rest of the city as well. Never noticed it before that. Gopal
said it was because of the high vibrations of the temple whatever that means.)
Traveled straight back to Earth and back to Marble Mountain Air Facility nonstop.
Back into the body, that's the part I hate most, returning to the body and waking
up. This had been one of the longer OOB and I believe it lasted slightly over an
hour (in human time).
So, does that help you to understand where I'm coming from?
> That's true Dennis, and he said so himself. Today there is an
> additional approach to the Shariyat that is being utilized by Eckists.
> It is termed the 'Living Shariyat'. The emphasis is on each student
> gleaning the golden tongued wisdom themselves, thru each as Soul
> connecting to it, when it signifies in their daily life.
For me, the Shariyat is a book of each of us. It's who we are, based on who we were.
It's our spiritual record as an individual soul. It's unfinished so long as we are
in the lower worlds.
But there's no words in it.
> I always see the misinformation inspired by David Lane, in people who
> say this, when _all_ the evidence of Paul's life shows the contrary...
For my money, David is correct in certain areas, and wrong in others. Each should
make up his own mind.
> Actually wouldn't you agree that Seth was operating from the mental
> plane/SOC?
Pure Astral.
Rich
>
> Rich wrote:
>
> > So it seems you experienced the book in the Temple of Sakapori which
> > Shamus-i-Tabriz takes care of... Do you remember visiting or reading
> > any other Shariyats?
>
> It was in Retz. The temple across from government center.
Oh... It sounded so akashic I thought it was the causal plane and not
the physical, or more accurately the supraphysical. So I take it that
this was the only one you saw.
> > You may be confused about the "real version". Paul's written books were
> > derived from the books located at the Katsupari Monastery and the
> > Gire-Hire Temple. Seems like you were looking at a different volume,
> > yes?
>
> No.
What do you mean no? You just said it was the volume in Retz, that's
the House of Moksha BTW ... So I am correct that you were dissing Paul
based on a different book.
> Look, i'll try to explain it to you, but this is going to sound like I'm a kook
> (which is why I never talked about this in public before. I did tell the members of
> my first Sat Sang but they really took offense, as they had been in Eck for two or
> three years and I had just joined, and they had not had any experiences like this. I
> soon learned to keep quiet)
Hmmm, funny. Most Eckists I know love to hear about these kinds of
experiences. They give a another perspective, they inspire and inform.
Maybe they had already labeled you as a kook? Sometimes personality can
be an obstacle to communication...
> There were several of us, around ten or twelve in my group that really did have
> experiences of traveling in this and the inner worlds.
>
> All of this took place in May-June 1970, while I was a Marine stationed in Viet Nam,
> after I had gone through combat (FWIW, I was attached to HMM-161, flew out of Phu
> Bai, as a gunner on a CH-46 helo, in January 1970 and had seen extensive action in a
> place called A Shau Valley, southwest of Da Nang.)
FWIW my best friend from high school, Bill Hennings was a Marine
stationed around Da Nang at the same time.
> Any ways, I was taken first to Agam Des, we had been given instruction there by
> several teachers (Fubbi Quantz was one, got yelled at by him for annoying one of the
> UFO critters - yes, there's UFO's there - did I not tell you, you would consider me
> a kook?) After some instruction on the yellow pillows (nubies got yellow pillows to
> sit in the lotus position on, the 'old salts' just sat on the ground,) we traveled
> up through the main Lay Line just north of the center. (Lay Lines are powerful
> magnetic lines that fade and grow and spirits' us them to move between planets like
> highways. Where they come down and enter the Earth, it is considered a special
> place.
Yes, I've been to several of those special places. I see them as chakras
of the earth.
No comment.<G>
> Anyway we were late and got scolded for holding up the ceremony.
>
> After you enter (no door) we turned to the right and entered a sacred room that held
> the Shariyat. This room had a special name but I don't remember it any more. The
> Shariyat was on a alter in the center of the large room, and had a beam of pure
> white light flowing from it, upwards towards the ceiling. I say 'flowing' because it
> was definitely pulsating with energy.
>
> As nubies we were seated n the back on yellow pillows (the 'salts' sat on blue
> pillows, and received instruction from three teachers, including my own. Then each
> of us rose and took the Shariyat and read from it. When I read, the pages were blank
> at first, then I could 'see' something, not words or pictures, more like balls of
> thought, when captured in your vision seemed to open inside you , like pealing an
> onion, and layer by layer I could see the essence of many prior lifetimes. We were
> told to share two or three of the ones that were the strongest (they had special
> meaning leading up to the present life) and many were quite funny. I only remember
> one and now, but I can't talk about it of course. ((If you think you real cool in
> this life, just wait till you find out what a jerk you were in a prior life <g>))
Again this past life stuff doesn't seem like the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad I've
studied. Since you were, as you say, a "nubie" maybe you could concede
that others experiences might be different and still valid... like
Paul's for instance? It's kind of bold for you to say that this one
experience you had would represent the only correct version of all the
Shariyats as viewed by everyone. I don't doubt your experience, just
your view that it is universal.
> Afterwards we were taken on a tour of the library at the back of the temple, many
> many floor levels, Paul wrote about this as well. It's just as he described, a
> strange mechanism will bring you any book you can desire.
Actually Harold wrote about this too in an experience he had.
> One other strange thing was just before leaving, I went outside and some of the
> others in the group remained inside. After I came back inside they told me they
> could see me, through the walls. One of them went outside and I could clearly see
> him. Could see the rest of the city as well. Never noticed it before that. Gopal
> said it was because of the high vibrations of the temple whatever that means.)
>
> Traveled straight back to Earth and back to Marble Mountain Air Facility nonstop.
> Back into the body, that's the part I hate most, returning to the body and waking
> up. This had been one of the longer OOB and I believe it lasted slightly over an
> hour (in human time).
>
> So, does that help you to understand where I'm coming from?
Not really.<G> It's just one experience... But I really do appreciate
your sharing the experience. Thanks.
Hopefully your fellow detractors won't choose to be too hard on you for
this.
SantimVah
No I don't think you are a "kook". I think that term would more approriately
be applied to the logic of die-hard detractors here. :-)
I'd be interested to know (if you wish) if your inner experiences still
follow such themes or are they now different. Do you now find less "high
powered visual" experiences and more in the moment "knowingness" so to
speak.
Also, given the sheer "kookiness" and "personal" impact of such experiences,
do you feel that Paul's writings shouldn't be taken so literally but more
seen as a gateway to such personal growth?
Does it matter to you if there are differences between where Paul said such
& such is on such & such plane & city .............. and where J Johnson or
yourself say is correct?
What are your feelings about Paul T untilising text from the path of the
masters within the written Shariyat books?
regards Sean
ps btw I also 'feel' Seth more as an Astral Plane understanding, I think a
lot of that work had to do with understanding and grasping the reality of
emotional energy upon us and our world. Not that it matters much.
"Dennis" <dwe...@bnin.net> wrote in message
news:39E2878E...@bnin.net...
> Rich wrote:
>
Dennis Webber
> > It was in Retz. The temple across from government center.
>
> Oh... It sounded so akashic I thought it was the causal plane and not
> the physical, or more accurately the supraphysical. So I take it that
> this was the only one you saw.
The Shariyat? Yes that was the only one I was ever told about. Seen many other temples
though.
> What do you mean no? You just said it was the volume in Retz, that's
> the House of Moksha BTW ... So I am correct that you were dissing Paul
> based on a different book.
I never said that it was a 'volume'. It was simply referred to as the 'Shariyat'.
My personal opinion is that Paul wrote 'books' -called- The Shariyat .... and that the
real Shariyat is not really a 'book' but something much more. The pages did not contain
words only images that words could not justify. I've read both editions of Paul's
Shariyat, wonderful reading, but neither is like what I had experienced. I don't remember
too much any more, perhaps in this world the Shariyat is written out and becomes unwritten
in the inner worlds. We never spent much time at Agam Des to explore very far. It was
always a stop for a quick verbal lesson and then on to somewhere else. I know that there
was a library there, but I never seen it.
On a side note, the name 'House of Moksha' sounds vaguely familiar. Been a long time
though.
> Hmmm, funny. Most Eckists I know love to hear about these kinds of
> experiences. They give a another perspective, they inspire and inform.
> Maybe they had already labeled you as a kook? Sometimes personality can
> be an obstacle to communication...
Back in the early seventies I was still fresh from Nam and usually was usually very quiet;
but I was very different from the rest of the group. I stood out like a sore thumb, had a
strange stare and much different viewpoint, that none of them ever understood. (How could
they?) I suppose they did view me with suspicion; as a kook. Back then, I didn't know
anyone else in Eckankar who had been in Viet Nam. As of today, I only know one Viet Nam
vet other who is (was) in Eck (and he was a part of the same group I wrote about. Last we
talked was around 92-93.)
But then, (in the early 70's) the entire view of Eckankar was different, Lane's book
hadn't been circulated and there was a lot of excitement about this teaching. My local
group was more 'hippy' like than what we see today. Several of them had lived in a hippy
commune, and I believe of the whole group I was the only one who was married! In fact, it
seemed like Eckankar more full of 'hippy types' back then, they sort of migrated to it.
The attitudes of the Eckests back then were much different than today. Today the attitudes
seem (to me) a little frozen and defensive. Back then everything was possible, the path
was not as clearly defined and it seemed very disorganized. Then it was "look out world,
here we come" (from the first issue of Eck World News). Now it's "sorry, that's not the
correct view". I liked it much better back then, too organized and controlled now. (Just
my view, I sure you see it in a better light.)
> Again this past life stuff doesn't seem like the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad I've
> studied. Since you were, as you say, a "nubie" maybe you could concede
> that others experiences might be different and still valid... like
> Paul's for instance? It's kind of bold for you to say that this one
> experience you had would represent the only correct version of all the
> Shariyats as viewed by everyone. I don't doubt your experience, just
> your view that it is universal.
All I can say is that everyone in that particular group had the same experience. The
Shariyat I seen was about each soul and their own personal journey. Of that, I am
absolutely certain.
Perhaps there are different Shariyat's, some versions that actually have words written in
them. Personally, I do not think so, but like you say, I seen very little of what actually
exists.
With so much of what Paul wrote now know to have been taken from other teachings, so much
shown to have been pure bunk - A.K.A. his prophicies (Flute of God, wasn't it?) it no
longer is worth defending. I told you of one afternoon's experience; and it was different
than what is held as sacred in Eckankar. I know Twitch had been there, too much was the
same, so he must of had a simular experience to what I had. But he never wrote about it.
Instead he wrote two volumes which are much different. In the end, we all prospered from
his efforts.
I wonder what the bowlegged little redeneck is up to now?
Take care,
Dennis
Dennis Webber
> I'd be interested to know (if you wish) if your inner experiences still
> follow such themes or are they now different. Do you now find less "high
> powered visual" experiences and more in the moment "knowingness" so to
> speak.
It all came to an end in early June, 1970. My attraction to one place, the
Valley of Lonely Souls, was stronger than my love for Gopal. It's impossible to
describe how hard it is to not be attracted to these inner worlds. I have to
wait to the end of this life to see him again, and I never stop thinking of him;
every single day. This world is like living in hell; even at its best moments.
> Also, given the sheer "kookiness" and "personal" impact of such experiences,
> do you feel that Paul's writings shouldn't be taken so literally but more
> seen as a gateway to such personal growth?
>
> Does it matter to you if there are differences between where Paul said such
> & such is on such & such plane & city .............. and where J Johnson or
> yourself say is correct?
>
> What are your feelings about Paul T untilising text from the path of the
> masters within the written Shariyat books?
I came to Eckankar because an Eckist showed me some pictures of the 'Eck
Masters'. I thought I'd be polite and look at her 'weird' beliefs but when I
seen the picture of Gopal Das I really began to get excited. I joined, read the
books and was amazed at all Paul had discovered. (After all he had been where I
had been, and had gone so much farther.) However there were always certain
'jagged edges' that didn't seem to fit.
Lane's manuscript ripped through our group like 'incoming'. I went out and
bought a copy Path of the Masters and knew Paul had cheated; *but* I also knew
that Paul wasn't a complete fake. I had seen him first with his master in 1950
when I was two, again in 1966 in Indianapolis and several times on the inner. He
also was the only one to ever write about the Varagi Brotherhood and I had had
some experiences with them. So I knew he had two sides; a mixture of truth and
lies. In a purely personal sense, I think I understand why. Even if he copied
from other sources, they are still excellent reading and I intend to continue
reading them even if I no longer follow Eckankar.
Eckankar is only a path, not an end in itself. Sometimes walking away is the
best action for one's own personal growth.
After all, Paul thought so.
Take care,
Dennis
Rich
> It all came to an end in early June, 1970. My attraction to one place, the
> Valley of Lonely Souls, was stronger than my love for Gopal. It's impossible to
> describe how hard it is to not be attracted to these inner worlds. I have to
> wait to the end of this life to see him again, and I never stop thinking of him;
> every single day. This world is like living in hell; even at its best moments.
Hmmmm... "Valley of Lonely Souls"? I don't understand. If you care to
elaborate, why do you have to wait?
> I came to Eckankar because an Eckist showed me some pictures of the 'Eck
> Masters'. I thought I'd be polite and look at her 'weird' beliefs but when I
> seen the picture of Gopal Das I really began to get excited.
I just came across these a few weeks ago. Check out the gut in the
lower right. http://www.angelfire.com/pe/site3/images/master12.jpg
<SNIP>
> Eckankar is only a path, not an end in itself. Sometimes walking away is the
> best action for one's own personal growth.
> After all, Paul thought so.
You are so right about that.
Rich
>
> Rich wrote:
<SNIP>
> > What do you mean no? You just said it was the volume in Retz, that's
> > the House of Moksha BTW ... So I am correct that you were dissing Paul
> > based on a different book.
>
> I never said that it was a 'volume'. It was simply referred to as the 'Shariyat'.
>
> My personal opinion is that Paul wrote 'books' -called- The Shariyat .... and that the
> real Shariyat is not really a 'book' but something much more.
I wholeheartedly agree. That's what I was referring to with the "living
Shariyat" that is very much a part of the teachings today.
<SNIP>
> Back in the early seventies I was still fresh from Nam and usually was usually very quiet;
> but I was very different from the rest of the group. I stood out like a sore thumb, had a
> strange stare and much different viewpoint, that none of them ever understood. (How could
> they?)
I know what you mean. My good friend Bill had similar difficulties when
he got back from Nam. We really _didn't_ have any idea or understanding
at first.
> I suppose they did view me with suspicion; as a kook. Back then, I didn't know
> anyone else in Eckankar who had been in Viet Nam. As of today, I only know one Viet Nam
> vet other who is (was) in Eck (and he was a part of the same group I wrote about. Last we
> talked was around 92-93.)
Wayne Walusiak?! He flew choppers in Nam. Saw him last year at the
WW. He's flying 747's for United now.
> But then, (in the early 70's) the entire view of Eckankar was different, Lane's book
> hadn't been circulated and there was a lot of excitement about this teaching. My local
> group was more 'hippy' like than what we see today. Several of them had lived in a hippy
> commune, and I believe of the whole group I was the only one who was married! In fact, it
> seemed like Eckankar more full of 'hippy types' back then, they sort of migrated to it.
I guess we had parallel experiences.<G> While there was a spectrum of
members in the area where I joined, there certainly was a fair
contingent of us "hippy types".
> The attitudes of the Eckests back then were much different than today.
That's for sure. People and thus organizations change over thirty
years.
> Today the attitudes
> seem (to me) a little frozen and defensive. Back then everything was possible, the path
> was not as clearly defined and it seemed very disorganized. Then it was "look out world,
> here we come" (from the first issue of Eck World News).
I still have that copy.
> Now it's "sorry, that's not the
> correct view". I liked it much better back then, too organized and controlled now. (Just
> my view, I sure you see it in a better light.)
Well, waaay back in 'the good 'ol days' we saw a lot of members going
off and also teaching in a lot more wilder directions. It was fresh and
perhaps more fun and exciting, but then, so were we!:-D Today it's more
refined and the guidelines are much more specific. Yeah, it's more
restrictive but still, anything _is_ possible. As from the beginning,
and actually more so today, if there are things I don't like about the
teachings or the organization, I just let it go. They have no effect on
my spiritual growth or awareness. The organization is much bigger and
therefore much more organized. Yet dispite that people still
misunderstand it's purpose, goals and intentions... However, the arts,
the training, the workshops and many other aspects have risen to a level
that is outstanding in any arena. Harold has more books in print about
Eckankar than Paul did, so the approach is changed accordingly. All the
outer trappings may be somewhat different but the basic teachings
http://www.eckankar.org/beliefs.html remain intact and those are all
that really matter to the sincere student.
> > Again this past life stuff doesn't seem like the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad I've
> > studied. Since you were, as you say, a "nubie" maybe you could concede
> > that others experiences might be different and still valid... like
> > Paul's for instance? It's kind of bold for you to say that this one
> > experience you had would represent the only correct version of all the
> > Shariyats as viewed by everyone. I don't doubt your experience, just
> > your view that it is universal.
>
> All I can say is that everyone in that particular group had the same experience. The
> Shariyat I seen was about each soul and their own personal journey. Of that, I am
> absolutely certain.
> Perhaps there are different Shariyat's, some versions that actually have words written in
> them. Personally, I do not think so, but like you say, I seen very little of what actually
> exists.
>
> With so much of what Paul wrote now know to have been taken from other teachings,
It's only recently that we are seeing that it was actually only a very
little percentage of what Paul wrote. David Lane's contest started us
down this road of discovery.
> so much
> shown to have been pure bunk - A.K.A. his prophicies (Flute of God, wasn't it?) it no
> longer is worth defending.
Yeah, I never put too much credence in prophecy. I read a lot of Cayce
too. I liked it but IMO it's like David's silly number test. Psychic
stuff is sketchy, usually works best only when spontaneous for a person
in that moment, often not repeatable and subject to change. Paul did
say that the direction of future events can be changed. There were
different Eckist's I know who left Hawaii due to Paul's and Cayce's
predictions... Oh well... A tidal wave did come a few years ago, but
it was so small it wasn't even visible to most. I saw it from high up
on a cliff(justin case:) when it 'hit' the reef at Waimanalo.
>I told you of one afternoon's experience; and it was different
> than what is held as sacred in Eckankar.
What is sacred is the individuals personal experience. Yours is just as
valid as mine, as was Paul's. When people puff up saying my experience
is the only correct one, then we know that their perspective is limited.
> I know Twitch had been there, too much was the
> same, so he must of had a simular experience to what I had. But he never wrote about it.
> Instead he wrote two volumes which are much different. In the end, we all prospered from
> his efforts.
Yes, everyone who was exposed to him and his teaching, whether they like
it or not.<G>
> I wonder what the bowlegged little redeneck is up to now?
<G> I don't see Peddar as Paul Twitchell any more...
Aloha,
Hawk
government and a practicing black magician.The path of Eck held a
different orientation and name but was brought to the attention of the
government rulers by a disgruntled disciple of the L.E.M. Decates who
was teaching near the city of Sar-Kurteva.
I was actively involved in the persecution of Decates,but there was
eventually a power struggle between myself and some others in
governemnt and I was outcast and banished to a small island where I
died of starvation and exposure.
much love, Hawk
In article <97027385...@news2.cybercity.dk>,
--
Hu-for-U
Rich
>
> I just came across these a few weeks ago. Check out the gut in the
> lower right. http://www.angelfire.com/pe/site3/images/master12.jpg
opps *guy* in the lower right.<G>
Dennis Webber
> > I just came across these a few weeks ago. Check out the gut in the
> > lower right. http://www.angelfire.com/pe/site3/images/master12.jpg
>
> opps *guy* in the lower right.<G>
>
This site is full of 'Eck Masters'. Did you (I'm certain you did) look at
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/site3/images/masters4.jpg
And http://www.angelfire.com/pe/site3/images/masters8.jpg
Must be an Eckist of old standing. Any id of who he is?
gruendemann
Dennis Webber
> The artist is Becky Morris, who _has_ been around a long time. Peter
> Adams, who's site it is, and who I saw in Montreal this summer, says
> that he thinks her last name is changed now.
>
> I've attached one that I recieved in an E-mail, that originally lead me
> to the site, which I then discovered was Peter's.
Fantistic picture. Wouldn't it be great to be able to paint like that?
Take care,
Dennis