In the beginning
Etznab
The other day I mentioned having watched a recap
of history covering about the first 2,000 years A.D.
How it struck me how many wars there were. How
many tortures, etc.
It turns out that a lot of it happened in the name of
religion. Even in the name of God. A God who was
supposed to have stated "Thou shalt not kill." Yet
at other times people used the same God to order
the killing of every man, woman and child for whole
communities.
So I like to ask the questions: "What happened in
the beginning? What went wrong?
There was a time many years ago where I heard
the names of people critical of Eckankar and my
thoughts told me they were synonymous with the
Devil (Kal). And for some of them this was without
my giving them the time of day to explain things
for themselves. Without even knowing the people,
never having met them or read much about their
own side of things, I adopted an attitude of prejud-
ice and listened to the same from my peers.
Eventually I decided to do my own research and
to see what was really going on. I saw a whole
bigger picture. One not slanted in the direction of
one side against another, or "us against them".
It occurred to me that a number of the dynamics
present during schisms in Eckankar were many
of the same dynamics present in the Dark and
the Middle Ages.
There is much evidence today of wars & sectarian
violence in the news, but these kind of things have
been going on for centuries. At this point it's hardly
possible to know what happened in the beginning.
There is history - which might explain much - and
yet much of this is skewed and varies according
to what side of the conflict, or in what camp that
history was written.
Pseudo (man-made) history and religion that does
not correspond with actual facts or natural events
have been a part of the fuel stoking the fires which
literally - in some cases - consumed people while
they were tortured and bound to a stake.
So it is not a passing glance anymore, or taking
an attitude of prejudice blind to the facts when I
step into a place like a.r.e.
Since this group is about Eckankar and involves
members, former members & non-members alike,
and since people don't all agree here I like to pay
keen attention to what is going on, and why. My
prime interest is going back to the beginning and
looking at the causes behind the divide. Naturally
this involves looking at the teachings of Eckankar
from the beginning and how they changed over
the years. Looking at when people left Eckankar.
why they left Eckankar and the ways that former
and current members communicate today. This
and more.
The history of Eckankar - from its formal begin-
ing in 1965 - is still shy of half a century. What
has taken place already - in the way of schisms
and divisions - is remarkable, IMO. Enough to
make any historian scratch their head.
What the cause? And were the causes unlike
anything that happened during the past 2,000
yrs. of Earth's history?
If the causse are not discovered, isolated, and
learned from then it's quite possible history will
keep on repeating itself. What is not mostly
verbal criticisms and attacks now will grow in
time - just like in many other cases - to count
various denominations and rival groups taking
part in the same basic story & teachings, but
writing the script differently to suit their cause.
And this is precisely the culprit, IMO, and at
the root of the divide. One person taking from
natural history and facts, changing them for
various reasons, and teaching a newer version
to people who eventually number in the thous-
ands. People who are unaware of the changes.
People who - when they see the original truth,
before the man-made changes - gasp in the
spirit of disbelief. People who - instead of look-
ing, learning and understanding the why's and
what-for's - defend the faith in what they were
told, regardless the evidence pointing out its
many fictions.
These are my perspectives about In the begin-
ning. I would like to invite others to share what
they believe happened in the beginning. What
it was that happened before the schisms and
before the wars. What happened to bring about
the state of affairs today in the world where the
industry of war is not only sapping the natural
resources of the planet and polluting it for use
by future generations, but is sapping the spirit
of cooperation between all nations to build a
better world for all.
Etznab
P.S. The pat Eckankar answer that this is a
warring universe, or instigated by some demon
(like Kal) who is king of the lower worlds and
wants it so - IMHO, that type of answer need
not apply. I'm not looking to cast the blame on
some character from human imagination and
myth. I'm looking for what has humanity done
to foster a beginning of wars & endless blood-
shed in this universe.
Etznab
Typo correction.
"What is not mostly verbal criticisms and attacks
now will grow in time ...."
Should read:
"What is now mostly verbal criticisms and attacks
will grow in time ...."
Jasmyn
Etznab,
There is no overall fix for the problems in this world which have
resulted from immature human consciousness. All things are in their
proper place for our own greater unfoldment through the many cycles of
time in the MEST universes. Whatever we can do to help, to uplift,
through expanded consciousness is meant to be also and the only way to
possibly have any hope of helping in the overall upliftment of
circumstances and events.
Eckankar's writings aid our understanding of our many lifetimes, karma
and reincarnation, cycles of time, which are the four yugas starting
with the Golden Age through the last yuga which we are in now, before
this cycle ends, at which time Souls which haven't made it yet to
Jivan Mukti (spiritual liberation) rest in worlds above time and
space. Then eventually the cycle of the four yugas starts again with
the next Golden Age, and these Souls begin again.
We are now living in the final of the four yugas, the Kali Yuga, which
is the most negative, so we live in trying times. "These are the times
that try men's Souls" as Thomas Paine said. This is not the Golden
Age, things are not easy, we are learning faster about results and
consequences. But you know about all of this from Eckankar's
teachings.
Most Eckists experience awareness of the inner Master which we call
the Mahanta consciousness, which is helpful. The word 'Mahanta' is
just a word for it, just semantics, could be called anything else,
could be called OneTwoThree. But it is the Light and Sound which comes
together and appears to us in the form of the Master we are most
familiar with.
All Souls are proceeding toward greater understanding and greater
consciousness--individually. I don't believe the things that interest
you in regard to perceived mistakes of Paul Twitchell, his writings,
or perceived foibles of Eckankar have any effect on many Eckists who
are more interested in what they did with the Inner Master recently.
Jasmyn
TianYue
Interesting that you use the Scientology term MEST. Of course,
Twitchell, having been a member of Scientology, incorporated that in
his copy of Radhasoami teachings.
Quote from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEST_%28Scientology%29
"MEST is an acronym used in Scientology and coined by author L. Ron
Hubbard. Hubbard used the first letters of the words matter, energy,
space and time, the component parts of the physical universe.[1] The
term MEST is frequently used in writings and lectures by Scientology
founder L. Ron Hubbard in place of the term, "the physical universe"."
Despite your theology, it doesn't at all do any good to just assume
things will be negative. Those sort of assumptions tend to be self-
fulfilling.
And, in fact, most of Paul T's predictions have turned out false. Why
not just live, do the best we can to make things go well, and leave
out forecasts of doom based on religion?
TianYue
TianYue
PT borrowed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugas
What I find interesting is that in the Shariyat, Paul took off zeros,
reducing the overall traditional MahaYuga time period from close to
five billion years to merely about 5 million. So Twitchell is shorting
us on the Kali yuga, making the time period vastly shorter than the
tradition suggests. No wonder you're resigned to the dark age!
(kidding you here). But the point is, according to the Hindus, who
came up with the Yugas to begin with, we've got far more time than
Eckankar claims.
Also, the Hindu time period of billions is much closer to the
estimated age of the universe by modern astronomy, although astronomy
estimates the age to be far older. According to science, PT's 5
million years (actually, a bit less) is way out of line. Basically,
it's a myth.
TianYue
On Oct 17, 3:11 pm, Jasmyn <Jasmyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jasmyn
Okay, change that from MEST to matter, energy, space and time. A
bigger mouthful to say.
Etznab seemed to be asking for others takes on wars and such, aside
from his talking about Eckankar. I was just replying about the four
cycles and this is the most negative of the four, and also that we are
living under spiritual laws such as karma, reincarnation and such, and
the Kali Yuga cycle of time. Some people are interested in learning
more about the spiritual laws. A good book about it is The Spiritual
Laws of Life by Harold Klemp.
If you want to get more into the positive areas besides wars and the
bigger problems of this world that Etznab touched on such as religious
wars and upheavals, that's another subject.
For instance, I feel grateful to be born in a place where life is
pretty good, in the US where I feel relative freedom, and people I
come in contact with usually have a smile on their face. Everyone
seems pretty happy where I live. Life is good, too. I'm sad about
other parts of the world though where some very good people have
hardships and little freedom.
Jasmyn
Jasmyn
> By the way, here's an interesting explanation of the Hindu Yugas which
> PT borrowed:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugas
>
> What I find interesting is that in the Shariyat, Paul took off zeros,
> reducing the overall traditional MahaYuga time period from close to
> five billion years to merely about 5 million. So Twitchell is shorting
> us on the Kali yuga, making the time period vastly shorter than the
> tradition suggests. No wonder you're resigned to the dark age!
> (kidding you here). But the point is, according to the Hindus, who
> came up with the Yugas to begin with, we've got far more time than
> Eckankar claims.
>
> Also, the Hindu time period of billions is much closer to the
> estimated age of the universe by modern astronomy, although astronomy
> estimates the age to be far older. According to science, PT's 5
> million years (actually, a bit less) is way out of line. Basically,
> it's a myth.
>
> TianYue
The Wikipedia article you linked to was confusing about what it was
saying in it's first paragraph, I agree. But I'll copy the second
paragraph here:
Durations of four yugas
The duration of the Satya millennium equals 4,800 years of the years
of the demigods; the duration of the Dvāpara millennium equals 2,400
years; and that of the Kali millennium is 1,200 years of the
demigods... As aforementioned, one year of the demigods is equal to
360 years of the human beings. The duration of the Satya-yuga is
therefore 4,800 x 360, or 1,728,000 years. The duration of the Tretā-
yuga is 3,600 x 360, or 1,296,000 years. The duration of the Dvāpara-
yuga is 2,400 x 360, or 864,000 years. And the last, the Kali-yuga, is
1,200 x 360, or 432,000 years." (Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.11.19) [2]. These
4 yugas follow a timeline ratio of (4:3:2:1).
---
Basically this is giving the same number of years Twitchell did on
page 16 of Shariyat Ki-Sugmad Book One:
Satya Yuga is 1,728,000, Tretya Yuga is 1,296,000 years, Dwapara Yuga
is 864,000 years, the Kali Yuga is 432,000 years.
However, Twitchell has another amount of time at the end of the Kali
Yuga Souls who didn't make spiritual liberation go to the Soul Plane
and spend 4,320,000 years there. (There's no time on the Soul Plane
though) :
"Souls who have been transplanted to this upper region find themselves
in original unity and bliss. They remain in this Kalpa of 4,320,000
years in a life of total peace, before the cycle starts again and they
are returned to the new worlds of matter."
Jasmyn
Etznab
Thanks for sharing that. All the degeneration ...
In your opinion has humanity had anything to do
with it?
You're not telling me you think it's all the Kali
Yuga's fault? Are you?
I'm quite familiar with the stories of four ages. I
was also looking for what did humanity do in this
world to begin the cycle of degeneration which
now characterizes the Kali Yuga. I don't think it
can be passed off on a myth.
******************************************************
Just wanted to respond to one other thing before
I go. I'll put this in the form of a question. Where
else in the Eckankar teachings have you heard
about Soul being put to sleep on the Soul Plane,
or above? Soul is put into a comatose state? on
the Soul Plane? or above? Do you believe this?
Etznab
TianYue
I've gotta say, looks like you're right on this one. My mistake.
The Hindu cycle of creation is complex and includes cycles within
cycles, and what I was reading was about a chain of several that
equals what is called "1 day of Brahma” or a “Kalpa,” which, with all
the sub-cycles, is 4 billion, 320 million years (4, 320, 000, 000). A
kalpa consists of 1000 mahayugas.
I confused the larger numbers mentioned in the opening paragraph of
the link I gave you previously with the far shorter mahayuga. I read
this years ago, and had it jumbled in my mind. That's what I get for
making too quick of a read.
So Twitchell did get his Hindu cosmology right after all. I’ll be
damned!
The Hindu cosmology with all its’ cycles is a bit confusing. Here’s
more links if anyone is interested. Wild stuff.
“In Hinduism (cf. Hindu Time Cycles), [the kalpa] is equal to 4.32
billion years, a "day of Brahma" or one thousand mahayugas,[3]
measuring the duration of the world (scientists estimate the age of
the Earth at 4.54 billion years).[4] Each kalpa is divided into 14
manvantara periods, each lasting 71 yuga cycles (306,720,000 years).
Preceding the first and following each manvatara period is a juncture
(sandhya) the length of a Satya-yuga (1,728,000) years.[5] Two kalpas
constitute a day and night of Brahma. A "month of Brahma" is supposed
to contain thirty such days (including nights), or 259.2 billion
years. According to the Mahabharata, 12 months of Brahma (=360 days)
constitute his year, and 100 such years the life cycle of the
universe. Fifty years of Brahma are supposed to have elapsed, and we
are now in the shvetavaraha-kalpa of the fifty-first; at the end of a
Kalpa the world is annihilated.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_%28aeon%29
From Wikipedia:
“Old Indian measures are presently used primarily for religious
purposes in Hinduism and Jainism. They also are employed in the
teachings of Surat Shabda Yoga.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Time_Cycles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manvantara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayuga
Rich?
> The other day I mentioned having watched a recap
> of history covering about the first 2,000 years A.D.
> How it struck me how many wars there were. How
> many tortures, etc.
>
> It turns out that a lot of it happened in the name of
> religion. Even in the name of God. A God who was
> supposed to have stated "Thou shalt not kill." Yet
> at other times people used the same God to order
> the killing of every man, woman and child for whole
> communities.
By _far_ most of the deaths in wars throughout all history were caused by
atheists with Mao, Stalin, and Hitler topping the list. It's a good guess
that Eckankar is at the very bottom of the list causing death.
> So I like to ask the questions: "What happened in
> the beginning? What went wrong?
Nothing. Everything is as you imagine it to be. Most do not know spiritual
Truth, and even those that do have the drawback of being human.
True. I've seen estimates of the Crusades causing anywhere from 23K to 2M
deaths.
> Pseudo (man-made) history and religion that does
> not correspond with actual facts or natural events
> have been a part of the fuel stoking the fires which
> literally - in some cases - consumed people while
> they were tortured and bound to a stake.
Get over it, or your likely to attract it to yourself, again. ;-) You know
how this works. Wherever we place our attention is where we are?
"For an idea is endowed with power only in proportion to the degree of
attention that has been fixed on it."
- Paul Twitchell
> before the wars.What happened to bring about
> the state of affairs today in the world where the
> industry of war is not only sapping the natural
> resources of the planet and polluting it for use
> by future generations, but is sapping the spirit
> of cooperation between all nations to build a
> better world for all.
>
> Etznab
>
> P.S. The pat Eckankar answer that this is a
> warring universe,
Seems like an accurate answer to me. I mean, when in recorded history were
there no wars? When was there peace and harmony throughout the world? I
remember a big push started in the late 60's and early 70's but that fruit
ripened quickly and returned to earth with age. The naive optimism of youth
keep sprouting what they think are new buds, but the fact is little has
changed. The only viable course is work on ending the war within our own
mind and heart.
> or instigated by some demon
> (like Kal) who is king of the lower worlds and
> wants it so - IMHO, that type of answer need
> not apply. I'm not looking to cast the blame on
> some character from human imagination and
> myth.
Are you really sure there is no negative force at work in the lower worlds?
That it's a myth? If you think there is, on what basis do you believe that
it can not be personified?
> I'm looking for what has humanity done
> to foster a beginning of wars & endless blood-
> shed in this universe.
It appears quite simple to me. It's the preference of power over Love. The
balance has shifted throughout the Yugas to where we are now. No biggie.
Soul survives. Cycles renew. There is no end to it because there was no
beginning.
Of course, ultimately, there is no beginning or ending to consciousness. You
are dancing with Lila.
"...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and
future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
- Einstein
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Rich?
> Thanks for sharing that. All the degeneration ...
What degeneration are you writing about? You haven't been clear. What
beginning are you writing about. How about a date? When was it all good?
You wrote for 2000 years. Was it all good before that? Or what, the garden
of Eden..?
> In your opinion has humanity had anything to do
> with it?
It's life dude. You can separate it out if you need to place blame, but
seriously, focusing on negativity gets you what?
> You're not telling me you think it's all the Kali
> Yuga's fault? Are you?
We know that you think it's religion's fault. It one of your themes. Do you
think it's good karma to jerk peoples beliefs out from under them, be they
pseudo, altered or Truth? That may be your answer to the cause of some
wars. You quest here has been to do something similar. Find and tout the
"original" so called truth as if this will solve or prevent any problems,
rather than create more as history has shown. The wars you are railing
against weren't started when people are content and left alone with their
religious practices and beliefs.
> I'm quite familiar with the stories of four ages. I
> was also looking for what did humanity do in this
> world to begin the cycle of degeneration which
> now characterizes the Kali Yuga. I don't think it
> can be passed off on a myth.
Are you arguing that man and his religious beliefs are responsible for all
the bad in the world? It sure seems like it.
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Etznab
Pseudo man-made propaganda who's aim is to rewrite
history and change the truth. Yes.
Etznab
Etznab
>
> read more »
There is not just one interpretation for time and length of
Hindu Yugas. The Wiki and Paul Twitchell gave the most
popular. For example, check out Yuga Theory here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Science
The Greeks also taught about four Ages.
There was also a Phoenix Cycle believed to have originat-
ed in Egypt.
Apparently, according to a Babylonian historian:
"The Babylonian historian Berossus [3rd century B.C.]
ascribed 2,160,000 years to the period 'between creation
and universal catastrophe.' " [Based on: Fingerprints Of
The Gods, p. 260, by Graham Hancock]
The Mayans allegedly have a cycle of 4-5 "Suns" which
could also be considered as cycles too.
Who's numbers are correct? The Hindu & Paul Twitchell?
Did Paul's numbers come from a Shariyat in a temple on
the inner planes? For all I know he did what we are doing
now, looking at human traditions and beliefs - recorded
history.
IMO the popular numbers for Hindu Yugas would have been
common knowledge in a number of groups Paul Twitchell
was affiliated with. Not to mention common knowledge in the
1960s period! The same information and numbers were pro-
bly a part of the Radhasoami literature. For instance, The
Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson mirrors some of the
same numbers and information Paul wrote about on the sub-
ject. And Path of the Masters came out in 1939!
Etznab
Jasmyn
The word 'sleep' is not used in the quote I provided in the last post,
it used the words 'bliss' and 'peace'. But sleep is used on page 110
of The Shariyat Ki-Sugmad Book Two. This chapter "The Records of the
Kros" starting on page 107 is an interesting chapter about the Yugas
for anyone interested in going back and reading that again.
Your question...
"what did humanity do in this world to begin the cycle of degeneration
which
now characterizes the Kali Yuga. I don't think it can be passed off on
a myth."
I wouldn't know how to answer such a question. From other things
you've said perhaps you are looking for your own answer that you seem
to have in mind, that it is all about the sins of religions gone awry.
I would turn that around and say the sins of religions gone awry are
the result of consciousness and experience, which gets back to karma,
reincarnation and working out the karma of what we have put out there.
And again, the chapter about the Yugas "The Record of the Kros" has a
lot of information about the cycles of time and experience and what
life is like in the broader sense in particular Yugas.
You call the Kali Yuga a 'myth'. Is there a way to find out more, to
prove it for oneself? I think the only way to prove anything such as
that is by personal spiritual experiences...if one finds oneself in
the Soul body with the inner Master, that is Soul to Soul, the answers
can be found.
Jasmyn
Jasmyn
---
Okay, thanks. That looks like a whole big study in itself.
Jasmyn
---
Etznab
Jasmyn,
The more I research and study, the less I want to take
information for granted, or on faith alone.
About the inner master and spiritual exercises, I agree
those can help. Putting one's self into the position of
receiving guidance from higher faculties has worked for
me. Often leading me to a person, a place, a book, a
movie, etc., where more information could be found. It
even helps before I search the Internet, leading to the
places where more information can be found.
The "inner" however is a broad spectrum, IMO. Going
from the lower worlds and on up. I don't consider every
inner source instructive for sharing with others because
another person is not always going to accept everything
said to come from a reporter's inner experience.
When newscasters relay the news and academics give
lectures on history it's more about citing sources along
with the information. They don't come out and say, well,
this is what came to me in a dream. This is what came
to me by my inner guide.
It's not to dismiss inner guidance that I said that. Only
that certain information is generally more credible when
people can check the source.
Over the years I've come across a number of earlier Eck
books and writings. These have helped me tremendously.
Without them I would only have the modern versions and
no chance of comparing with the old.
I think when a person gets to see earlier literature & the
early manuscripts it provides a little more depth into the
source. Revealing things that might have been changed
down the line.
Because I have read a lot of books, I tend to recognize
information which circulates and was shared by a number
of different writers. Especially about ancient history. The
source for all of them is what I like to look for, because a
root source can grow many different branches as people
try to explain it in their own words, own understanding &
own interpretation over time. Then many different versions
develop.
So it's not easy to get at the root form. Like with the Yuga
cycle. Ideally, I should look at the oldest manuscript on it.
And since it would probably be in a foreign language, then
ideally I should try to learn that language too.
Today, it's easier to find an English interpretation of things
like the Bible and the Vedas, etc. I like to see the original
language along with the English transliteration and inter-
pretation. That way I can see what it was based on. I have
not seen a Hindu manuscript about the Yuga cycle. It may
be something I'll try to do in the future. Try to determine the
age of it as well. When was it introduced to recorded history.
In other words, what was it based on.
I think I read something about Kal Niranjan standing on one
leg for many yugas. Worshiping Purusha. This kind of thing
though, I think it's rather symbolic. So the symbols could
amount to a form of language. One the people who used it
might have known more about than people do today. Infor-
mation is not always passed on to the general populace &
is often veiled in symbol for initiates. It is known by those
who can interpret the symbols. Interpret the language. But
for people who don't know the meaning, there is always the
tendency to give them meanings. And that can be like the
task of putting together a puzzle by forcing things to fit that
really don't. The result can amount to so many fabulous
stories and myths. The exact meaning remaining veiled for
most people.
Sorry. I got carried away typing :)
Etznab
Etznab
Rich
OK, that's clear...
Yet I still question, what "truth" are you referring to? What about real
man-made propaganda, like yours, who's aim is to rewrite history and change
the truth as it's known by some now?
For instance, is the first time an idea is presented or written(if original
even exists) "the" truth? Can't someone take the same idea and refine it to
make it more true? What if the original was flawed, or a blatant lie? See
what I mean? Original source doesn't = truth.
Which leads me back to my first question: I'm still left wondering what was
the beginning point and the degeneration you are writing about?
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Jasmyn
If something reflects truth, then it is going to be the same or
similar in multiple groups it seems to me. That some groups share
similar ideas about the cycles and ages, regardless of whether they
get the exact number of years in any cycle different than others
interpretations, seems like they are trying to pass on to their chelas
the truth of cycles of time and experience.
Here's what Paul Twitchell says:
From The Shariyat Ki-Sugmad Book Two, page 107:
The records of the Kros are most important in the life of this world.
They are the ancient transcripts of the past history of this earth
planet and what will become of it. History and prophecy are within
these records, and those who are able to read them will know the past
and future of what will take place in the physical plane.
These records are history and prophecy. So in the beginning it is
known that the records of the Kros are hidden in the Katsupari
Monastery, under the guardianship of the great ECK Master Fubbi
Quantz. This monastery is remotely found in the Buika Magna mountain
range.
These records tell us that the legendary paradise of man, thought of
as the Garden of Eden, was laid on the lost continent of Lemuria which
was sunk by earthquakes and tidal waves fifty thousand years ago.
This continent was in the midst of what is now the Pacific Ocean, and
many of the islands which dot its vast surface were once part of
Lemuria's vast mountain ranges.
It was a strange land of some one hundred thousand inhabitants who
developed one of the greatest civilizations on earth. These records
describe the creation of man in this mysterious country. Centuries
later, writers of religious literature used the fragments of the
history of these records to write their own version of creation. One
of the greater records which came out of the Kros was that of the
ancient Naacal writings of the primitive tribes and civilizations on
this earth planet. But the Kros goes back even into the early days of
the formation of the whole planetary system in this universe.
Only the great spiritual giants walked the earth and the planetary
worlds in the ancient days. The world was a paradise, for every
living creature could maintain and preserve its survival through the
fruitfulness of the earth. The world was filled with inhabitants who
were innocent of any known evil and happiness reigned.
The first era was called the Satya Yuga, the Golden Age. It was the
era in which truth and righteousness reigned. There was not any
social law nor courts to punish or threaten the individual, because
everybody acted right and believed in truth. The forests were still
intact because no one cut timber for ships or houses, and no
fortifications were built around cities and towns. The earth brought
forth all things necessary without the labor of plowing and sowing.
There was a perpetual spring that lay over the land, flowers grew
without planting, and yellow honey was distilled from the great trees.
The Golden Age was succeeded by the Tretya Yuga, the Silver Age.
Inferior to the Golden Age, it's found that the spring was shortened
and the year became divided into seasons. Then, for the first time,
man found that he had to endure the extremes of cold and heat. Houses
and homes became necessary for every man. Caves were the first
dwellings that man found for himself. Crops would no longer grow
without planting, and the farmers were forced into sowing seeds and
using oxen and horses to draw the plow as they toiled in the fields.
The next to follow was the Dwapara Yuga, or that known as the Copper,
or Brass, Age. Men found themselves growing more savage of temper and
ready to manufacture swords, spears, and helmets to fight neighbors at
the least provocation. When they found their neighbors gaining wealth
which they did not have, they attacked them to seize anything of
temporary benefit. These were the beginning of the destructive eras.
The Kal power came into strength during this period to make man
subject to him so that he could hold back Soul on Its road to
perfection.
The Iron Age, or that which is known as the Kali Yuga, is the one that
we are dwelling in today. It is the worst and most violent of all
ages, for crime has flooded the world and all that is and was known in
the past as truth and modesty has vanished. Violence has become
rampant. This is why it's said that man shall never find peace on
earth again, at least not in this lifetime, for the Kal has become the
leader of this world and will continue to be king until the SUGMAD has
destroyed the lower kingdom.
These are the mahayugas, or the manvantaras, which is the cycle for
cosmic history. The current yuga embraces the Kali Yuga, which is one-
tenth of the duration of the whole cycle. The Satya Yuga, the Golden
Age, embraces the first four-tenths of the cycle, or 1,728,000 years.
The Tretya Yuga, or Silver Age, embraces three-tenths of the cycle, or
1,296,000 years. The Dwapara Yuga, or Copper Age, embraces two-tenths
of the cycle, or 864,000 years. The Kali Yuga, or the Iron Age, which
is the dark era of the cycle, embraces one-tenth of the duration of
the cosmic cycle, or 432,000 years. These descending numbers
represent the physical and moral deterioration of man in each age.
The four yugas represent an aggregate of 4,320,000 years of man and
constitute a great yuga, or mahayuga.
A great yuga is the period of time in cosmic history which consists of
approximately five million years. Soul lives and struggles in the
physical and psychic worlds during these cycles. But at the end of
each, the SUGMAD lifts those Souls which have not reached perfection
into the Atma Lok, the Fifth Plane, where they sleep while IT
readjusts the lower worlds. After several million years, the SUGMAD
ends the cosmic cycle and places each of these sleeping Souls back
into the lower worlds so they can once again start their long journey
to perfection. The cycle begins once more in the Satya Yuga, the
Golden Age, where all is peaceful and man lives in harmony with all
nature and creatures.
---
Jasmyn
Etznab
I was reading The Key to Eckankar, where it was indicated
that the truth "cannot be altered". This was the beginning I
intended to make reference to.
See: p. 38 The Key to Eckankar
It seems that truth "is" altered. But in the long run, in truth,
it really is not. That was partly my impression. And that no
matter how things are spun, the truth is the truth. Inflexible.
Etznab
Rich
> I was reading The Key to Eckankar, where it was indicated
> that the truth "cannot be altered". This was the beginning I
> intended to make reference to.
>
> See: p. 38 The Key to Eckankar
>
> It seems that truth "is" altered. But in the long run, in truth,
> it really is not. That was partly my impression. And that no
> matter how things are spun, the truth is the truth. Inflexible.
>
> Etznab
It seems to me that you are trying to conflate two different things. You are
referring to things are written differently about the same concept as if the
changes are bad(degeneration and cause of war). If seems to me that's not
really what was Rebazar was talking about.
"We make a primary assumption, consideration, or demand about something, and
it becomes altered by the events of life as we live.
(...)
"We see here that truth, if it is in the primary consideration, will not be
altered simply for the reason that it cannot be." PT - The Key to Eckankar
pgs.37-38
The "if" in there looms large. If the primary consideration is not truth, if
in the beginning the truth was spun, if the truth was altered by
misconception... In the end ;-) how do you know whether the original,
subsequent variations, or current version is the best way to perceive it?
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Jasmyn
We seem to be talking about two different things.
When I said:
"If something reflects truth, then it is going to be the same or
similar in multiple groups it seems to me. That some groups share
similar ideas about the cycles and ages, regardless of whether they
get the exact number of years in any cycle different than others
interpretations, seems like they are trying to pass on to their
chelas
the truth of cycles of time and experience."
What I was referring to was in the previous post your exclamation
points on that Hinduism and Radhasoami talked about yugas first, as
inference perhaps that Paul picked up the concepts about cycles and
yugas from Hinduism or Radhasoami. So I was saying in essence that
no one owns truth, that if a *concept* or *law* of the physical
universes is *truth* then it's not unusual that several or many groups
would tell their chelas about it.
So I'm a little unsure what the page 38 quote in Key to Eckankar means
in the context of what we were talking about.
....or maybe you don't believe in the yugas as truth, is that what
you're saying? (sorry if I'm getting this wrong).
Jasmyn
TianYue
I think it's rather simple to deduce where Paul found the Hindu
concepts of time cycles. He got it where he got most of the other
eckanakr teachings: Surat Shabda Yoga, as expressed in Julian
Johnson's writings which Paul heavily plagiarized. Since he
plagiarized those books, and structured eckankar after those
teachings, there is no reason to think he didn't also incorporate the
yugas.
The Wikipedia article I referenced (see links in other post upthread)
indicated that Surat Shabd Yoga is one of the groups that uses the
Hindu time cycles.
From Wikipedia:
> “Old Indian measures are presently used primarily for religious
> purposes in Hinduism and Jainism. They also are employed in the
> teachings of Surat Shabda Yoga.”
Of course, some of the other Hindu-influenced groups Paul followed
before Kirpal Singh would have taught him that, as well. Way back when
I got into eckankar, some the people I knew who became members in the
mid-sixties when there weren't any books published by PT reported to
me that Paul advised his early followers to read Blavatsky's books,
which explain the Hindu Yugas.
This is a no brainer.
TianYUe
Etznab
OK. I think I see what you mean.
There might be more about the "primary consideration"
thing in Dialogues with the Master, Chapter: Maya, the
Queen of Illusion.
I'm gonna reread this stuff.
Etznab
Etznab
I don't believe in the Yuga cycle simply because I
haven't confirmed the reality about them. Including
the length.
It's not something I'm going to take on faith alone.
Perhaps somebody would like to elaborate more
about Shiva's role in the destruction of universes?
There might be more information there.
Etznab
Etznab
No. That Dialogues with the Master chapter didn't have it.
It had "change of coordinates", etc., and not the same. I
thought Paul wrote about "primary considerations" some
place else. In another book ... though I don't remember it
right now. Where else I saw it.
Umm ... Hubbard, or Scientology, had something to say
on the subject of "primary consideration".
The reason I'm looking for more about this is twofold. To
look at the same thing worded differently and see if more
insight can be gained. And to learn if a history exists for
the same basic ideas.
Here is one Scientology quote:
AXIOM 37. WHEN A PRIMARY CONSIDERATION IS ALTERED
BUT STILL EXISTS, PERSISTENCE IS ACHIEVED FOR THE
ALTERING CONSIDERATION.
All persistence depends on the Basic Truth, but the persistence
is of the altering consideration, for the Basic Truth has neither
persistence nor impersistence.
http://www.tep-online.info/laku/usa/reli/scien/SECRETDOX/AXIOMS_OF_SCIENTOLOGY.pdf
For more on this topic, page search and read the paragraph with
the words "primary consideration" here. It is very interesting.
http://www.aberree.com/v06/n09p09.html
This page gives another list of Scientology axioms. Although I'm
not about to brainstorm what it all means, I did recognize some
similar ideas and words included in Eckankar writings.
It's possible that Paul Twitchell incorporated his knowledge of the
axioms into his writings. Rewording them in some places where
necessary. I said it's possible. IMO.
In any case, I've gotta spend a few days trying to figure out what
frame of mind these writers were coming from, so to speak, when
writing about this stuff. Then determine how what Paul T. wrote via
Rebazar Tarzs is different, or not.
It's real deep stuff, IMO. I'm not up to fathoming it at this time.
The Axiom number 29 was particularly curious to me, however.
http://www.new-civilization.de/archives/37
Etznab
Etznab
>
> For more on this topic, page search and read the paragraph with
> the words "primary consideration" here. It is very interesting.
>
> http://www.aberree.com/v06/n09p09.html
>
> This page gives another list of Scientology axioms. Although I'm
> not about to brainstorm what it all means, I did recognize some
> similar ideas and words included in Eckankar writings.
>
> It's possible that Paul Twitchell incorporated his knowledge of the
> axioms into his writings. Rewording them in some places where
> necessary. I said it's possible. IMO.
>
> In any case, I've gotta spend a few days trying to figure out what
> frame of mind these writers were coming from, so to speak, when
> writing about this stuff. Then determine how what Paul T. wrote via
> Rebazar Tarzs is different, or not.
>
> It's real deep stuff, IMO. I'm not up to fathoming it at this time.
> The Axiom number 29 was particularly curious to me, however.
>
> http://www.new-civilization.de/archives/37
>
> Etznab
This link is in upper right on the Aberree page. It's a little better
illustr-
ation.
http://www.kristi-wachter.com/aberree/v06/n09/page0009.png
BTW. Who is Dr. James Clark? Anybody heard of him? His article in
Aberree was from 1960, I believe.
Anyhow. Pretty interesting stuff. All of the sources, including how
Paul
Twitchell wrote about primary considerations, etc. IMO. It's all too
much
for me right now though. I'm gonna need a couple days (at least) to
con-
template on this. Maybe find Dr. Clark's book (and have a look-see)
too.
Etznab
Etznab
Jasmyn
Confirmed through your own inner spiritual experiences? if you're
waiting for science to prove the yugas, you may have to wait a
lifetime or two. There's more to heaven and earth than currently
printed in history and science books.
Jasmyn
Etznab
I've seen many different stories about the four ages. The
Hindu Yugas are only one version of them.
It's not to say there aren't cycles, I'm just not accepting
the postulates of others without checking out for myself
the sources.
Etznab
Rich
> On Oct 20, 10:02 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 20, 6:07 pm, Etznab <etz...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 5:03 am, "Rich" <deadm...@inorbit.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Etznab wrote:
>>>>> I was reading The Key to Eckankar, where it was indicated
>>>>> that the truth "cannot be altered". This was the beginning I
>>>>> intended to make reference to.
>>
>>>>> See: p. 38 The Key to Eckankar
>>
>>>>> It seems that truth "is" altered. But in the long run, in truth,
>>>>> it really is not. That was partly my impression. And that no
>>>>> matter how things are spun, the truth is the truth. Inflexible.
>>
>>>>> Etznab
>>
>>>> It seems to me that you are trying to conflate two different
>>>> the same concept as if the changes are bad(degeneration and cause
>>>> of war). If seems to me that's not really what was Rebazar was
>>>> talking about.
>>
>>>> "We make a primary assumption, consideration, or demand about
>>>> something, and it becomes altered by the events of life as we live.
>>>> (...)
>>>> "We see here that truth, if it is in the primary consideration,
>>>> will not be altered simply for the reason that it cannot be."
>>>> PT - The Key to Eckankar pgs.37-38
>>
>>>> The "if" in there looms large. If the primary consideration is not
>>>> truth, if in the beginning the truth was spun, if the truth was
>>>> altered by misconception... In the end ;-) how do you know whether
>>>> the original, subsequent variations, or current version is the
>>>> best way to perceive it?
>>
>>>> Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
>>
>>> OK. I think I see what you mean.
<snip far off track from the original post. "So I like to ask the questions:
"What happened in
the beginning? What went wrong?" with this Subject thread? ;-)
>> It's possible that Paul Twitchell incorporated his knowledge of the
>> axioms into his writings. Rewording them in some places where
>> necessary. I said it's possible. IMO.
When were these axioms developed? It's also possible that Paul was writing
for Hubbard at the time. We know he reused a lot of his own earlier
writings...
Anyway, if you somehow manage to gather everything written on a particular
concept from "in the beginning" and throughout all recorded history, how do
you know which version to accept as the closest to accurate? Which is
"pseudo" and which is truth? Where wars started because people couldn't
accept a greater truth? Could you be developing your own "schisms in
Eckankar"? Are you "the fuel stoking the fires" by "taking from natural
history and facts, changing them for various reasons, and teaching a newer
version to people..."? ;-)
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~
Etznab
OK. So let's take and subtract the number of years back
to the last Satya Yuga. The last "Golden Age" according
to Paul Twitchell and popular Hindu myth.
http://www.mirrorh.com/timeline4mbc.html
How is that for a beginning? And was this the time of MU,
or Lemuria?
"[....] The Tretya Yuga, or Silver Age, came after the breakup
of the previous age, when Lemuria, by earthquakes and tidal
waves, went down under the seas. [....]"
[Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
Two, p. 113, Second Edition - 1988]
"[....] These records tell us that the legendary paradise of man,
thought of as the Garden of Eden, was laid on the lost continent
of Lemuria which was sunk by earthquakes and tidal waves fifty
thousand years ago. [....]" [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shar-
iyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 107]
So MU, Lemuria (according to Paul?) existed 50,000 years ago?
The last Tretya Yuga began around 2,163,102 B.C. And that was
after the breakup of the previous age, when Lemuria, by earth-
quakes and tidal waves, went down under the seas?
"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all its
colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the crust of
the earth some hundreds of thousands of years ago. It was a
land of the Aryans who spread the empire throughout the world.
[....]" [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book
Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing, 1986, p. 97 ]
100,000 yrs ago? Land of the Aryans? No, wait a minute.
"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all its
colonial
empire came about by gas pockets under the crust of the earth that
formed some hundreds of thousands of years ago. [....]" [Based on:
Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad, Book Two, Second Edition
- 1988, p. 112]
Looks like somebody edited out "land of the Aryans" and made a
few other edits as well.
*****************************************************************************
No disrespect intended, but australopithecus and early homininds
were the type of humans who inhabited the last Golden Age?
Etznab
Etznab
Going to show how I arrived at the numbers.
Page 134-135 of the Eckankar Lexicon gives 1,728,000 yrs. for
Satya Yuga. 1,296,000 yrs. for Tretya Tuga and 864,000 years
for Dwapara Yuga (for a total of 3,888,000 yrs.). Adding the Kali
Yuga (p. 109) of 4,320,000 gives a grand total of 4,320,000 yrs.
The numbers for yugas is found on p. 16 of Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
Book One. Also p. 109 in S.K.S. Book Two.
Page 55 of The ECK-VIDYA book gives the numbers as well as
the date for beginning of Kali Yuga - 3,102 B.C.
Subtract 3,888,000 years from 3,102 B.C. and you get what?
(man I hope I got the math right) 3,891,102 B.C.?
So - according to the numbers - is this about right? Is this when
the last Satya Yuga, the last Maha Yuga began?
Notice how Paul Twitchell - in the ECK-VIDYA - when writing on
the number of years for each yuga (p. 55) writes: "The duration
of each age is said to be, respectively ...."
SAID TO
BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Scroll down to Hinduism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_cosmology
Quoting from link:
"Each Maha Yuga lasts for 4,320,000 years."
"The current Kali Yuga (Iron Age) began at midnight 17 February /
18 February in 3102 BC in the proleptic Julian calendar."
My Comments:
Hey Now! Those are the dates Paul Twitchell gave for Kali Yuga on
p. 55 of ECK-VIDYA book! Compiled history?
"According to Aryabhata, the Kali Yuga began in 3102 BC, at the
end of the Dvapara Yuga that was marked by the disappearance
of Vishnu's Krishna avatar. Aryabhata's date is widely repeated in
modern Hinduism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
OK. Said to be.
Here he (she?) is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata
So now we know?
"Both the Rig Veda and Brahmanda Purana describe a
universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time.
The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles
between expansion and total collapse. It expanded from
a concentrated form — a point called a Bindu. The universe,
as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth,
death, and rebirth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
Would anybody care to save me the time and locate the
exact quotes from the Rig-Vidya on this subject? Or any
dates it might mention with respect to it?
Etznab
P.S. Yes I'm having fun yet :)
Rich
The truth is, I actually did yawn as I read this.
> http://www.mirrorh.com/timeline4mbc.html
>
> How is that for a beginning?
No good.:-) We have no writings from then to see if Paul plagiarized them.
:-}
How about beginning Now with spiritual awareness. Step back from time.
Picture truth, the whole of It. From there will be understood the meaning
and scope of different Yugas. Construction instead of deconstruction.
Looking through the right end of the telescope. Third eye vs one eye through
a magnifying glass. Then one can Know which version to accept, for now.
Rich
Salient point!! He's saying someone else claims that. That does not
necessarily mean that he sees it like that.
> Scroll down to Hinduism.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_cosmology
>
> Quoting from link:
>
> "Each Maha Yuga lasts for 4,320,000 years."
>
> "The current Kali Yuga (Iron Age) began at midnight 17 February /
> 18 February in 3102 BC in the proleptic Julian calendar."
>
> My Comments:
>
> Hey Now! Those are the dates Paul Twitchell gave for Kali Yuga on
> p. 55 of ECK-VIDYA book! Compiled history?
>
> "According to Aryabhata, the Kali Yuga began in 3102 BC, at the
> end of the Dvapara Yuga that was marked by the disappearance
> of Vishnu's Krishna avatar. Aryabhata's date is widely repeated in
> modern Hinduism."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
>
> OK. Said to be.
>
> Here he (she?) is.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata
>
> So now we know?
No we don't.
> "Both the Rig Veda and Brahmanda Purana describe a
> universe that is cyclical or oscillating and infinite in time.
> The universe is described as a cosmic egg that cycles
> between expansion and total collapse. It expanded from
> a concentrated form — a point called a Bindu. The universe,
> as a living entity, is bound to the perpetual cycle of birth,
> death, and rebirth."
Which universe?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
>
> Would anybody care to save me the time and locate the
> exact quotes from the Rig-Vidya on this subject? Or any
> dates it might mention with respect to it?
>
> Etznab
>
> P.S. Yes I'm having fun yet :)
Good! I'm happy for you.
Etznab
This (the following quote) reminds me about the
Anurag Sagar where Niranjan stood on one leg
in worship of Purush.
Hindus believe that human civilization degenerates
spiritually during the Kali Yuga,[4] which is referred
to as the Dark Age because in it people are as far
removed as possible from God. Hinduism often
symbolically represents morality (dharma) as a bull.
In Satya Yuga, the first stage of development, the
bull has four legs, but in each age morality is re-
duced by one quarter. By the age of Kali, morality
is reduced to only a quarter of that of the golden
age, so that the bull of Dharma has only one leg.
[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga
"It's life dude. You can separate it out if you need
to place blame, but seriously, focusing on negativity
gets you what?"
In school, people focus on things to learn about
them. Maybe I'm looking for where the negativity
came from.
Here's another one of your quotes.
"We know that you think it's religion's fault. It one
of your themes. Do you think it's good karma to jerk
peoples beliefs out from under them, be they pseudo,
altered or Truth? That may be your answer to the
cause of some wars. You quest here has been to do
something similar. Find and tout the "original" so call-
ed truth as if this will solve or prevent any problems,
rather than create more as history has shown. The
wars you are railing against weren't started when
people are content and left alone with their religious
practices and beliefs."
As to the question:
"Do you think it's good karma to jerk peoples beliefs
out from under them, be they pseudo, altered or Truth?"
Is it a higher initiate thing where they teach you to let
people believe in the pseudo or altered? Is this what
the leader of Eckankar teaches? OK. Fine.
Hey Rich. People are free to believe what they want.
IMO. Until they want to assume that I should believe
the same. This is when I show them the difference!
Do you think it's good karma to knowingly teach the
pseudo history in Eckankar dogma to people as if it
were literally true? I don't think it's a good idea. Not
anymore. Not after the truth is out there.
At one point maybe nobody was the wiser about the
places where Paul Twitchell found a lot of his material.
None the wiser that names were changed, etc. Not to
mention the number of writings plagiarized from other
authors and not necessarily come from Eck Masters.
This is not Paul's day. People are not so ignorant as
years ago with less information available. There is no
way Eckankar is going to keep the wool over people's
eyes for very much longer. IMHO. If the pseudo and
altered is part of the Eckankar movement, it's better
off to let people know about it from the beginning. Let
them know this is a current practice of Eckankar Inc.
to propagate pseudo and altered truth, whenever and
wherever, to further its cause.
"Eckankar" has become like other organized religions
then? Hmm.... I seriously doubt that pertains to evey-
dody's Eckankar. See the difference?
People don't have to believe in the pseudo & altered
dogma of truth propagated by organized religion. They
don't have to teach it to other people either. And they
certainly have liberty to meet pseudo religion / history
with the truth. IMHO.
Etznab
Etznab
In that instance, yes. And that is crucial to know where
the information comes from. IMHO.
In other places - such as the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, dates
are given in another context. In some places reading like
statements. IMO.
Not many seminars ago Harold Klemp mentioned Frank
Joseph. I also mentioned Frank Joseph.
What about this Eckankar seminar? What will be the next
book / author? Will Harold cite more books / references to
Atlantis?
Someone - on another thread - asked about why don't I go
quote the book by Frank Joseph. OK. Since the book has
been out for some time, I will. [Note: This was not one of
the books mentioned by Harold Klemp. He mentioned two
other earlier books by Joseph.]
This is one paragraph from p. 46, 2nd-last paragraph of the
book: ATLANTIS AND 2012 / The Science of the Lost Civil-
ization and the prophecies of the Maya, by Frank Joseph,
Copyright 2010 [I will illustrate the one italics word with an
asterik]
[Note: This was not one of the books mentioned by Harold
Klemp. He mentioned two other earlier books by Joseph.]
Begin quote.
[....]
Each of these four natural catastrophes coincided with the
close passage of Comet Encke, named after the German
astronomer who first calculated its orbit, Johann Franz Encke,
in 1822. Their parallel to the quartet of worldwide cataclysms
cited on the Aztec Calendar Stone is not unique. Ancient
India's own calendrical system was separated into major
divisions of prehistoric periods known as *yugas - the Maha
yuga is dated to 3100 BC, the Krita yuga came to an end by
2214 BC, the Treta yuga ended in 1621 BC, and the Davpara
yuga terminated in 1213 BC. These yugas compare closely
to the geologic catastrophes of the late-fourth millennium BC,
2193 BC, 1628 BC, and 1198 BC. Moreover, their identifiably
Atlantean character is especially apparent in the Davpara yuga,
during which Krishna's palace, Dwarka, was supposed to have
sunk to the bottom of the sea after a great war.
[....]
End quote.
I don't know why Joseph attributed those dates for the Hindu
yugas in his book. I don't know if this information appears in
the earlier Frank Joseph books mentioned by Harold Klemp
at a past Eckankar seminar. [I bought the newest book as it
was the most available at the time.]
If anybody has read those other Frank Joseph books, could
you determine if the same information appears there?
Etznab
Etznab
>
> What about this Eckankar seminar? What will be the next
> book / author? Will Harold cite more books / references to
> Atlantis?
>
> Someone - on another thread - asked about why don't I go
> quote the book by Frank Joseph. OK. Since the book has
> been out for some time, I will. [Note: This was not one of
> the books mentioned by Harold Klemp. He mentioned two
> other earlier books by Joseph.]
>
> This is one paragraph from p. 46, 2nd-last paragraph of the
> book: ATLANTIS AND 2012 / The Science of the Lost Civil-
> ization and the prophecies of the Maya, by Frank Joseph,
> Copyright 2010 [I will illustrate the one italics word with an
> asterik]
>
> [Note: This was not one of the books mentioned by Harold
> Klemp. He mentioned two other earlier books by Joseph.]
>
> Begin quote.
>
> [....]
>
> Each of these four natural catastrophes coincided with the
> close passage of Comet Encke, named after the German
> astronomer who first calculated its orbit, Johann Franz Encke,
> in 1822. Their parallel to the quartet of worldwide cataclysms
> cited on the Aztec Calendar Stone is not unique. Ancient
>
> read more »
I referenced something about Kali Yuga on another thread
(I gave the link in last post) and want to share it here.
This is the 2nd paragraph from the Frank Joseph book that
I cited in my last post (this thread). It appears on page 90.
Begin quote.
[....]
Recalculations arrived at by some modern Hindu scholars
have shown that the vast spans of time separating the four
yugas (1,728,000 years; 1,296,000 years; 864,000 years;
and 432,000 years) are not to be taken literally. Instead,
these otherwise unmanageable parameters, if understood
in symbolic terms, indicate that the present Kali Yuga will
be catastrophically brought to a close in 2012.
[....]
End quote.
[From: ATLANTIS AND 2012 / The Science of the Lost
Civilization and the Prophecies of the Maya, by Frank
Joseph, Copyright 2010 - p. 90]
OK folks. So this weekend is the last of three Eckankar
"Worldwide" seminars before the end of Kali Yuga :) ? :)
Gotta love those "symbolic terms".
Not to mention, "some modern Hindu scholars".
BTW. Whose the Eckankar Braniac who mentioned the
Frank Joseph books to Harold Klemp?
Anybody we know?
Umm ... or did (Harold) come across them himself?
Etznab
Rich
OK. This is you answer to my question, "What degeneration are you writing
about?" Since you cite this, I take it this is version you accept as the
closest to accurate? You're telling me you think it's all the Kali Yuga's
fault?
> "It's life dude. You can separate it out if you need
> to place blame, but seriously, focusing on negativity
> gets you what?"
>
> In school, people focus on things to learn about
> them. Maybe I'm looking for where the negativity
> came from.
You're free to go there if you want, but that didn't answer my question. Of
course it was a leading question(s), but if you disagree why not just say
so? I'll separate these out for you. You don't have to answer me. Consider
answering these for yourself. What is it about you that you are compelled to
repeatedly place blame in your writings here? What does focusing on
negativity attract to you?
> Here's another one of your quotes.
>
> "We know that you think it's religion's fault. It one
> of your themes. Do you think it's good karma to jerk
> peoples beliefs out from under them, be they pseudo,
> altered or Truth? That may be your answer to the
> cause of some wars. You quest here has been to do
> something similar. Find and tout the "original" so call-
> ed truth as if this will solve or prevent any problems,
> rather than create more as history has shown. The
> wars you are railing against weren't started when
> people are content and left alone with their religious
> practices and beliefs."
>
> As to the question:
>
> "Do you think it's good karma to jerk peoples beliefs
> out from under them, be they pseudo, altered or Truth?"
>
> Is it a higher initiate thing where they teach you to let
> people believe in the pseudo or altered?
No lower initiate :-p, it's allowing others spiritual freedom.
> Is this what the leader of Eckankar teaches?
I think so. I know you rely on the words and quotes. I can find you one if
you need it?
> OK. Fine.
>
> Hey Rich. People are free to believe what they want.
> IMO. Until they want to assume that I should believe
> the same. This is when I show them the difference!
No one here assumed that... Why not address those that do? Propping up
strawmen like that here doesn't show "them" a thing.
> Do you think it's good karma to knowingly teach the
> pseudo history in Eckankar dogma to people as if it
> were literally true? I don't think it's a good idea. Not
> anymore. Not after the truth is out there.
Here we go again. Your truth is yours, and why you continue to presume it
must be others is... what? When others have literal experiences, you keep
claiming it's not, based on your forensic analysis and lack of such
experiences. The wars & sectarian violence you were railing against in the
beginning post were started when people who were content were not left alone
with their religious practices and beliefs.
> At one point maybe nobody was the wiser about the
> places where Paul Twitchell found a lot of his material.
> None the wiser that names were changed, etc. Not to
> mention the number of writings plagiarized from other
> authors and not necessarily come from Eck Masters.
>
> This is not Paul's day. People are not so ignorant as
> years ago with less information available. There is no
> way Eckankar is going to keep the wool over people's
> eyes for very much longer. IMHO. If the pseudo and
> altered is part of the Eckankar movement, it's better
> off to let people know about it from the beginning. Let
> them know this is a current practice of Eckankar Inc.
> to propagate pseudo and altered truth, whenever and
> wherever, to further its cause.
>
> "Eckankar" has become like other organized religions
> then? Hmm.... I seriously doubt that pertains to evey-
> dody's Eckankar. See the difference?
Yes, you believe that you know what everybody in Eckankar and those first
looking at it should believe and be taught.
> People don't have to believe in the pseudo & altered
> dogma of truth propagated by organized religion.
Who here said they do? Who? Again, if you need it I can provide you one of
many quotes posted here from the Eckankar teachings as well as many Eckist
who have posted here, where it was written that you don't _have_ to
"believe" in anything. Who are you arguing against?
> They don't have to teach it to other people either.
Yes, no member of Eckankar is required to teach anything.
> And they
> certainly have liberty to meet pseudo religion / history
> with the truth. IMHO.
Yes, your opinion of truth.
Rich~~~~~~~~Sailing the Cosmic Sea~~~~~