Spiritual Masters Teachers Teachings History Research Eckankar Info 14th - 20th century
Sean
HELP REFERENCES WEBSITE LINKS URL INFO HISOTRY FACTS DATES PEOPLE TIMES
Spiritual Masters Teachers Teachings History Research Info 1400's thru 20th
century
Search Key Words:
Eckankar ECK Masters; Atom, Darwin Gross, Paul Twitchell, Rebazar Tarz,
Harold Klemp, Christopher Columbus, Kabir, Satguru Kabir, Srimanta
Sankardeva, Guru Nanak Dev, Sarana, Tibet, India, Punjab, Hindu Kush,
Pakistan, Afghanistan, J�m Niz�mudd�n, Jal�ludd�n Muhammad Roomi, Mevlana
Jalaluddin Rumi, Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva, Mahapuruxiya dharma,
Assamese, Tibet and China, Islam, Muslims, Sufism, Eck, EK, Tibetan Muslims,
Shariat Laws, shariyat, sharia law, Shariyat law, Radhasoami, Sufi, Hazrat
Inayat Khan, Huzrat Khan, Pia Khan, Path of the Masters, Johnson, Doug
Marman, Naam, God, Sugmad, Chishti Sufi Order, Mohammed Abu Hasana, Said Abu
Hashim Mudani, Paris France, science of soul, sould travel, oneness, letters
to gail vol III 3, Abu Ishaq Shami, Gharib Nawaz, America, USA, west, Pir
Zia Khan, Irim Mushid Hazrat Inayat Khan, Zia Inayat Khan, Sufi Islam
Masters, Mu'tazili,
SORRY ABOUT THE LINE FORMATTING - I have no idea how to fix it.
--------------------------
This article or section has multiple issues.
Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since May 2008.
Its factual accuracy is disputed. Tagged since May 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECK_master
ECK Masters, or the Order of Vairagi Adepts, are spiritual figures who
assume spiritual
leadership of the ECKANKAR religion, according to Eckankar doctrine. The
current Living ECK
Master is Sri Harold Klemp.
--------------------------
Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year 1461, in the mountain village of Sarana
in northern
Tibet.
He developed into mastership under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi
[ see below Wiki
page info].
It was Rebazar Tarzs who was responsible for the inner guidance of
Christopher Columbus.
Rebazar held the Rod of Power on Earth for 75 years teaching one person at a
time in his
soul body, then he retired in the same body to the mountain vastness of the
Hindu Kush
Mountains of the Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several Masters,
and is responsible
for passing the Rod of Power. He is known as the torchbearer of the
teachings.
Under the guidance of the Boucharan Master Rebazar Tarzs, who appeared to
Paul nightly in
the soul body with instructions, Paul brought forth this age-old message
through discourses
and books, followed up by lectures and travels around the world.
Rebazar Tarzs is known as the torchbearer of the ATOM Teachings in the lower
worlds. He has
been the spiritual teacher of many Boucharan Masters including Peddar Zaskq
or Paul
Twitchell, to whom he handed the rod of power in 1965.
--------------------------
Christopher Columbus (c. 1451 - 20 May 1506) was a navigator, colonizer and
explorer whose
voyages across the Atlantic Ocean led to general European awareness of the
American
continents in the Western Hemisphere.
Columbus's initial 1492 voyage came at a critical time of growing national
imperialism and
economic competition between developing nation states seeking wealth from
the establishment
of trade routes and colonies.
In this sociopolitical climate, Columbus's far-fetched scheme won the
attention of Isabella
I of Castile. Severely underestimating the circumference of the Earth, he
estimated that a
westward route from Iberia to the Indies would be shorter and more direct
than the overland
trade route through Arabia.
If true, this would allow Spain entry into the lucrative spice trade -
heretofore commanded
by the Arabs and Italians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus
---------------------------------
Yaubl Sacabi
Yaubl Sacabi was a Living ECK Master of the Mycenaeans, c.2000 B.C. to
c.1700 B.C.
In his lifetime, he is said to have played a pivotal role within ancient
Greek religions.
Fubbi Quantz
Fubbi Quantz was an ECK Master based in Persia at Tabriz, a contemporary of
Buddha c.500
B.C.
.... and also a tenth century figure. = 1000 A.D.
He personally taught the tenth-century poet Firdusi as ECK Master, and is
also credited as
having had contact with Christopher Columbus through King Ferdinand and
Queen Isabella.
Fubbi Quantz is said to have believed the discovery of America would be
beneficial for
Europeans, who needed nutrients to aid in their collective recovery from
plague, famine, and
the generally poor state of the average person's diet, and thus helped to
inspire Columbus's
voyage.
He is in charge of the Katsupari Monastery in Tibet, and guardian of the
first section of
the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad kept there.[15]
Despite the powers of ECK Masters, Fubbi Quantz taught that worshiping ECK
Masters as gods
is a fatal error, and on this point Paul Twitchell quotes him with evident
approval: "I am
but a servant of God, and whoever shall regard me as the Lord shall meet
with
destruction."[17]
Twitchell also relates that in modern times, Fubbi Quantz once appeared on a
highway along
the Mediterranean coast and stopped an automobile driven by some of his
followers to save it
from plunging off a washed-out bridge ahead.[18]
Rebazar Tarzs
Rebazar Tarzs, typically described as wearing maroon robes, is credited as
the first ECK
Master to transform ECKANKAR from a hidden art into an "open" religion, in
the fifteenth
century. = 1460 onwards ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECK_master#Yaubl_Sacabi
SEAN:
I am wondering what was this "open" religion in the 15th century ???
-----------------
Kabir (also Kabira) (1440-1518)[1] was a mystic composer and saint of India,
whose
literature has greatly influenced the Bhakti movement of India.[
Al-Satguru Kabir ("the Great") is also one of the 99 names of God in Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
PLEASE ALSO NOTE : more info on the Bhaki movement and chap called Srimanta
Sankardeva
(1449-1568 AD is below
---------------------------------
SEAN:
Therefore, according to this information as presented:
Rebazar Tarz was 31 years old when Colombus sailed on his first voyage to
the Americas.
Rebazar Tarz would have been at least 95 years old before he retired circa
1555.
[ eg 20 year old + 75 years as the Master? ]
No one seems to know who Rebazar Tarz passed the Rod of Power to when he
retired circa 1555
CE at about 95 years of age.
---------------------------
Guru Nanak Dev was born on 15th April 1469, now celebrated as Prakash Divas
of Guru Nanak,
into the Bedi Kshatriya family (a prominent Hindu community of Punjab) in
the village of
Rai Bhoi di Talwandi, now called Nankana Sahib, near Lahore, Pakistan.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji (15 April 1469 -22 September 1539) is the first of the ten
Sikh Gurus.
Sikhs believe that all subsequent Gurus possessed Guru Nanak's divinity and
religious
authority.
passing on about 1540 @ 70 years of age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Nanak_Dev
----------------------
Sarana, Tibet?
Author: Etznab
posted Sat, 5 Sep 2009 19:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
newsgroups alt.religion.eckankar
LOL gee whiz, this guy gets around .... :-))
Great post actually ... I must have missed it entirely ... thx etznab, from
SEAN .
http://ns1.yserv.com/articolo/3231380.html
==========================
MAP SARANA INDIA - in the middle of nowhere - mid west India directly south
of the Hindu
Kush & Chittral in Pakistan
Welcome to the Sarana google satellite map! This place is situated in
Barmer, Rajasthan,
India, its geographical coordinates are 25� 26' 0" North, 72� 3' 0" East and
its original
name (with diacritics) is Sarana.
http://www.maplandia.com/india/rajasthan/barmer/sarana/
also a side Quote:: Returning from it, he took sarana (initiation) to
Madhabdeva and learnt
all the ...
BASICALLY
Your search for sarana near Tibet, China did not match any locations.
-------------------------
J�m Niz�mudd�n II (Urdu) ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? : was the most famous
Sultan of the Samma
Dynasty, which ruled in Sindh and parts of Punjab and Balochistan (region)
from 1351-1551
C.E. He was known by the nick-name of J�m Nind�. His capital was at Thatta
in modern
Pakistan.
The Samma Sultanate reached the height of its power during the reign of Jam
Nizamuddin II,
who is still recalled as a hero, and his rule as a golden age.
His grave is located at Makli near Thatta. The tomb is a stone structure
with fine
ornamental carving similar to 15th century Gujrat style [1] .
After his death, his dilettante son J�m Fer�zudin lost the Sultanate in 1525
C.E. to the
invading army of Shah Beg Arghun [2] , who had been thrown out of Kandahar
by Babur.
********* note this :>
J�m Niz�mudd�n was fond of the company of learned men, with whom he took
pleasure in
discussing literary subjects. There is a story that a learned man of Sh�r�z,
Jal�ludd�n
Muhammad Roomi had come from Persia to Sind and had sent his two worthy
pupils M�r
Shamsudd�n and M�r Mu�n to Thatt� to arrange for his sojourn there.
J�m Niz�mudd�n, learning the intention of the Persian savant, ordered good
houses to be
fitted up for his reception and sent his two pupils with a large sum of
money for expenses
of the journey, ordering them to bring the learned man. But before their
arrival their
master had died. M�r Shamsudd�n and M�r Mu�n therefore came back to Thatt�
and took up their
abode at the place.
3. Lagecy
The British East India Company had earlier described Thatta as ``a great
citie as large as
London. It now had more than 50,000 houses, of which many were made of stone
and mortar with
vast verandahs, sometimes three or four storeys high. The textiles of Sindh
were ``the
flower of the whole produce of the East. The international commerce of
Thatta ``gave Sindh a
place among the nations. The city had 400 schools and 4000 boats. The
Sindhis sipped the
cups that cheered and sweetly inebriated.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Jam_Nizamuddin_II
---
BUT ???
Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi died on December 17, 1273.
--------------------------
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva (1449-1568) = 120 years of age
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
--------------------------------
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva (1449-1568) , saint-scholar, playwright,
social-religious
reformer, is a colossal figure in the cultural and religious history of
Assam, India. He is
credited with providing a thread of unity to Assam straddling two major
kingdoms (Ahom and
Koch kingdoms), building on past literary activities to provide the bedrock
of Assamese
culture, and creating a religion that gave shape to a set of new values and
social
synthesis.
Alipukhuri and Borduwa
It is possible the death of his wife increased his spiritual inclination as
his mind began
to focus, more than ever before, on the transcendental. When his daughter
turned nine, he
married her off to Hari, handed over the Shiromaniship to his grand uncles
and left for a
pilgrimage (a religious tour rather) (c1482). At this point of time, he was
32. The
pilgrimage took him to Puri, Mathura, Dwaraka, Vrindavan, Gaya, Rameswaram,
Ayodhya,
Sitakunda and almost all the other major seats of the Vaishnavite religion
in India. At
Badrikashrama, he composed his first bargeet-mana meri ram charanahi lagu-in
Brajavali. He
returned home to Ali-pukhuri after 12 years (his family had moved back from
Bordowa in his
absence). During his pilgrimage, he witnessed the Bhakti movement that was
in full bloom in
India at that time.
After his return, he refused to take back the Shiromaniship. On his
grandmother's
insistence, he married Kalindi at the age of 44. Finally, he moved back to
Bordowa and
constructed his first naamghar (prayer hall), and began preaching. He wrote
Bhakti pradipa
and Rukmini harana. Soon after, he received a copy of the Bhagavata Purana
from Jagadisa
Misra of Tirhut which had in it commentaries from Sridhara Swami of Puri, an
Advaita
scholar, and began rendering it into Assamese. He also began composing the
Kirtana ghosha.
The 13 years at Ali-pukhuri was the period during which he reflected deeply
on Vaishnavism
and on the form that would best suit the spiritual and ethical needs of the
people.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Srimanta_Sankardeva
================
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva (1449-1568)
(pronounced Mohapurux Srimonto Xonkardev, in Assamese) is a colossal figure
in the cultural
and religious history of Assam, India. He is credited with providing a
thread of unity to
Assam straddling two major kingdoms, building on past literary activities to
provide the
bedrock of Assamese culture, and creating a religion that gave shape to a
set of new values
and social synthesis. The religion he started (Eka Sarana Hari Naam Dharma)
was part of the
Bhakti movement then raging in India, and he inspired bhakti in Assam just
as Ramananda,
Kabir, Basava and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu inspired it elsewhere.
His literary and artistic contributions are living traditions in Assam
today. The religion
he preached is practiced by a large population, and monasteries (sattras)
that he started
sustain his legacy.
In reverence to his personality, teachings and oeuvre, he is a
Mahapurusha---'Great Man'.
==Eka Sarana==??????
Main article: Mahapuruxiya dharma
Sankaradeva used the form of Krishna to preach devotion to a single God (eka
sarana), who
can be worshiped solely by uttering His various names (naam). In contrast to
other bhakti
forms, eka sarana follows the dasya attitude (a slave to God). Moreover,
unlike the 'Gaudiya
Vaishnavism' of Bengal, Radha is not worshiped along with Krishna. In
uttering the name of
God, Hari, Rama, Narayana and Krishna are most often used.
Sankaradeva himself and the religion in general are particularly
antagonistic to saktism
which was strongly prevalent in Assam at the time. This probably explains
the non-use of
Radha as an icon. His famous debate with Madhavadeva, who was a staunch
sakta (devotee of
Shakti) earlier, and Madhavadeva's subsequent conversion to Vaishnavism, is
often cited as
the single most epoch-making event in the history of the neo-Vaishnavite
movement in Assam.
Madhavadeva, an equally multi-talented person, became his most celebrated
disciple.
A non-brahmin, Srimanta Sankaradeva started a system of initiation (saran
lowa) into his
religion. He caused a huge Social revolution by fighting against anti-social
elements like
casteism prevailing at that time. He initiated people of all castes and
religions, including
Muslims. After initiation, the devotee is expected to adhere to the
religious tenets of eka
sarana. Failure to adhere to these tenets led to ex-communication in certain
cases.
Though he himself married (twice), had children and led the life of a
householder, his
disciple Madhavadeva did not. Some of his followers today follow celibate
monkhood (kevaliya
bhakat) in the Vaishnavite monasteries---the sattras.
The people who practice his religion are called variously as Mahapurushia,
Sarania or
Sankari.
His translation of the Bhagavata is actually a transcreation, because he
translates not just
the words but the idiom and the physiognomy too. He has adapted the original
text to the
local land and people and most importantly for the purpose of bhakti.
Portions of the
original were left out or elaborated where appropriate. For example, he
suppressed the
portions that revile the lowers castes of sudra and kaivartas, and extols
them elsewhere.
It is possible the death of his wife increased his spiritual inclination as
his mind began
to focus, more than ever before, on the transcendental. When his daughter
turned nine, he
married her off to Hari, handed over the Shiromaniship to his grand uncles
and left for a
pilgrimage (a religious tour rather) (c1482). At this point of time, he was
thirty two. The
pilgrimage took him to Puri, Mathura, Dwaraka, Vrindavan, Gaya, Rameswaram,
Ayodhya,
Sitakunda and almost all the other major seats of the Vaishnavite religion
in India. At
Badrikashrama, he composed his first bargeet---mana meri ram charanahi
lagu---in Brajavali.
He returned home to Ali-pukhuri after 12 years (his family had moved back
from Bordowa in
his absence). During his pilgrimage, he witnessed the Bhakti movement that
was in full bloom
in India at that time.
lot so finfo on this page PLUS - AND
He made arrangements with Madhavadeva and Thakur Ata and gave them various
instructions at
Patbausi and left the place for the last time. He set up his home at
Bheladonga in
Kochbehar. During his stay at Kochbehar, Naranarayana expressed his wish to
be initiated.
Sankaradeva was reluctant to convert a king and declined to do so.
According to one of the biographers (Ramcharan Thakur), a painful boil-a
visha phohara-had
appeared in some part of his body and this led to the passing away of the
Saint. According
to other accounts (Guru Charit Katha et al), Naranarayan's adamance that he
be initiated
into the new religion led the saint to surrender his life to the Lord, by
way of meditative
communion. Thus, in 1568, after leading a most eventful life dedicated to
enlighten
humanity; the Mahapurusha passed away - within six months of his stay at
Bheladonga - at the
remarkable age of 120 years.
References
An Unsung Colossus: An Introduction to the Life and Works of Sankaradeva,
Sivanath Barman,
Guwahati 1999.
http://as.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%B6%E0%A7%8D%E0%A7%B0%E0%A7%80%E0%A6%AE%E0%A6%A8%E0%A7%8D
%E0%A6%A4_%E0%A6%B6%E0%A6%99%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%95%E0%A7%B0%E0%A6%A6%E0%A7%87%E0%A6%AC
???
as.wikipedia.org/wiki/????????_????????
OR TRY this -- I searched for - Surana tibet map - and it came up #1 in
google results.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMI_en-USAU293AU305&q=Sarana+village+wiki+tibe
t&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
the Language & FONT used is called Assamese
-------------------------
y Masood Butt
Tibetan Bulletin
January - February 1994
Tibet had pockets of Muslims entrenched within its borders although there is
no documentary
evidence on how Muslims first came to settle there. In fact, information on
Tibetan Muslims
in general itself is scarce. But the existence of Tibet appears to be known
to the Muslim
world from the earliest period of recorded history. Arab historians like
Yaqut Hamawi, Ibn
Khaldun and Tabari mention Tibet in their writings. In fact, Yaqut
Hamawihas, in his book
Muajumal Buldan (encyclopaedia of countries), refers to Tibet in three
different ways
Tabbat, Tibet and Tubbet.
During the reign of Umar bin Abdul Aziz (717-720) of the Persian Empire, it
is believed that
a delegation from Tibet and China requested him to send Islamic missionaries
to their
countries. Caliph Umar is said to have sent Salah bin Abdullah Hanafi to
Tibet. The Abbasid
rulers of Baghdad also maintained re1ations with Tibet in the eighth and the
ninth
centuries.
Kashmir and Eastern Turkestan were the nearest Islamic regions bordering
Tibet. It is said
that Muslim migrants from Kashmir and Ladakh areas first entered Tibet
around 12th century.
Thomas Arnold, in his book, The Preaching of Islam, published in the early
part of this
century says, "Islam has also been carried into Tibet proper by Kashmiri
merchants.
Settlements of such merchants are to be found in all the chief cities of
Tibet: they marry
Tibetan women, who often adopt the religion of their husbands..."
Tibetan Muslims trace their origin from immigrants from four main regions:
China, Kashmir,
Ladakh and Nepal. Islamic influence in Tibet also came from Persia and
Turkestan.
Muslims are known as Khache among Tibetans. This appear to be because the
earliest Muslim
settlers to Tibet were from Kashmir which was known as Khache Yul to
Tibetans.
The arrival of Muslims was followed by the construction of mosques in
different parts of
Tibet. There were four mosques in Lhasa, two in Shigatse and one in
Tsethang. In recent
years, one mosque in Lhasa has been renovated, with Tibetan Muslims from
India sending
religious inscriptions to it for use. Tibetan Muslims were mainly
concentrated around the
mosques that they constructed. These mosques were maintained well and were
the centres of
Muslim social life in Tibet.
Tibetan Muslims led a reasonably free life in a Buddhist environment. In
fact, during the
time of the fifth Dalai Lama, Tibetan Muslims received the following special
privileges:
i) They were permitted to settle their affairs independently, according to
the Shariat Laws.
The above privileges were contained in a written document provided to the
Tibetan Muslim
community by the Tibetan government. These privileges were enjoyed until
Chinese occupation
of Tibet in 1959.
Tibetan Muslims confined themselves mainly to trade and commerce. Hardly any
of them
indulged in fanning. As the community grew, Madrasas (primary schools) were
set up in which
children were taught about Islam, the Koran and the method of offering namaz
(prayers). Urdu
language was also part of the curriculum. There were two such Madrasas in
Lhasa and one in
Shigatse.
http://asiarecipe.com/tibmuslim.html
--------------------
Shariat Laws
The Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937
http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/muslimperact/muslimpersonalact.htm
Government Of Orissa Decides To Follow Shariat Law For Muslim Women
http://www.trap17.com/forums/Government-Orissa-Decides-Follow-Shariat-Law-Muslim-Women-t5169
3.html
What is SHARIYAT LAW ?
I want to know for educational interest.
The authority of Sharia is drawn from two major and two lesser sources. The
first major
source is specific guidance laid down in the Qur'an, and the second source
is the Sunnah,
literally the 'Way',
Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937 enacted during British
rule is known as
Shariat Law in India. All questions (except questions relating to
agricultural land)
regarding intestate succession, special property of females, including
personal property
inherited or obtained under contract or gift or any other provision of
Personal law,
marriage, dissolution of marriage, including talaq, ila, zihar, lian, khula
and mubaraat,
maintenance, dower, guardiaship, gifts, trusts and trust properties, and
wakfs (other than
chartities and charitable institutions and charitable and religious
endowments) the rule of
decision in case where the parties are Muslims is known as the Muslim
Personal Law (Shariat)
in India. However it is not the complete Shariat Law as envisaged in Islam.
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090704013418AAP92RC
Does all muslims obey the SHARIYAT law?
NO, neither all Muslims obey Shariyat law, nor all Hindus follow Geeta,
Ramayana and
ved-purans. Religion has become just society's identification/marks only.
Just to born with
a human we cannot become human. To become a human we all have to practice
very hard
discipline. Otherwise we are just a creature/animal as others.
http://qna.indiatimes.com/index.php?ref=permalinkquestion&question_id=89062
owever, the child would be a legitimate issue of Taufiq and all Shariyat
laws for upbringing
of such child would apply. "I will abide by Shariyat provision ...
www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040922/main8.htm
------------
The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, which means "Way of the Eternal," is the holy
scriptures of
Eckankar.
------
Thus, Twitchell not only uses Radhasoami terms, but he also uses Radhasoami
concepts
without the terms, preferring to coin his own Indian or Sufi names for his
own purposes.
There are several examples in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad of how he substitutes
Indian words for
Persian ones, such as referring to God as Sugmad instead of Sat Purush,
using the term zikar
instead of simran, and employing the sacred Sufi word "hu" as a chant (much
like the use of
"om" in Indian philosophy).
Even the title of his book, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, is Persian for The Path
of the Masters,
although it translates more like The Law/Path to God.
Indeed, most of Twitchell's understanding of Sufi terminology comes directly
from Hazrat
Inayat Khan, who Johnson cites in section 11.5 in The Path of the Masters.
But Twitchell
does something distinct from Johnson: instead of merely citing Sufi terms
Twitchell
incorporates them into his religion while altering their meaning for his own
unique
theology. Perhaps this is an effort to distinguish his group a bit more from
its Indian
ancestor.
Moreover, while Twitchell may adopt lengthy passages from The Path of
the Masters, he
tailors them to fit Eckankar, leaving out any material that conflicts with
its teachings. A
key example of this occurs when Twitchell utilizes a passage of Johnson's
that deals with
morality but he omits an important section concerning the wrongfulness of
killing and eating
animals. Why? Because unlike Radhasoami, Eckankar does not require a
vegetarian diet.
and
While these passages are both concerned with how one should properly
meditate, there are a
few obvious differences. Notice that Twitchell makes some substitutions of
terms to resonate
with Eckankar thinking. For instance, he refers to "ECK Dhun" instead of
"Shabd-dhun;" he
speaks of "music of the ECK" and not the "audible life stream;" and he calls
the disciple
"chela," and the Master "Mahanta." Moreover, he keeps certain Indian terms,
like dhyan and
bhajan, but replaces simran with the Persian word "zikar." He eliminates
reference to
Patanjali in this passage as well, perhaps to separate his ideas a bit more
from India.
Also of importance is his mention of chanting "the sacred name of God,"
as though
indicating there is only one name and it is voiced externally. In the
Radhasoami Beas group,
however, there are several sacred names one internally chants while
meditating. Hence, even
though the resemblances may be overwhelming, the alterations made give us
insight into how
Twitchell is trying to make the teachings his own.
http://www.stormpages.com/heymolly1/rsch3.html
----------------------------
SEAN:
Doug Marman has oft used the phrase "Paul's teachings"
for example :: This points out a significant truth: We are easily misled by
the one-way
media of books, TV and newspapers, because we accept the images and
perspectives that we
hear and see, even when we are not sure of the facts. It is for this reason
that David
Lane's book has been accepted as fact by many academics throughout the
country. This shows
the vital importance of personal experience and self-discovery as the
foundation for
determining what is true. Once we have engaged in first hand experience and
open dialogue,
the illusory images fall away and become replaced with what we really know.
Public opinion
will not stand before our own personal knowledge.
Interestingly, it is this very philosophy that is the basis for Paul
Twitchell's
teaching of ECKANKAR.
Not faith and belief, but personal spiritual experience and self-discovery.
This is exactly
why I say that an exploration of the issues here can lead us to something
far greater than a
mere debate. We can gain some real understanding and a more complete
perspective of the
principles of the spiritual path itself.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm
and as Paul states himself in 1963
"He has rejected the great unwashed who are up to their ears in this
Department Store
Culture, of pension plans, telephones, radio and TV, dogma and
money-changers.
Accordingly, he sees this civilization heading down the path to
destruction, and will
be the greatest to suffer unless he can get out of it quickly. But he is in
a sense like
Thoreau who wasn't in the least interested in changing the ways of his time,
but wants to be
left alone to enjoy his own company and solitude.
My writings are pointed toward this, although they may appear on the
surface like the
works of a man careless of law and landlords with the attitude of gay
mockery."
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._One.htm
----------------------------
Hazrat Inayat Khan
Hazrat Inayat Khan was a Sufi teacher from India who started "The Sufi Order
in the West"
(now called the Sufi Order International) in the early part of the 20th
century. Though his
family background was Muslim, he was also steeped in the Sufi notion that
all religions have
their value and place in human evolution.
Inayat was born into a family of musicians in 1882. His grandfather was a
well-known
musician respected as a composer, performer, and developer of a musical
annotation which
combined a group of diverse musical languages into one simplified integrated
notation.
The house in which he grew up was a crossroads for visiting poets,
composers, mystics, and
thinkers. There they met and discussed their views (religious and otherwise)
in an
environment of openness and mutual understanding. This produced in the young
man a sympathy
for many different religions, and a strong feeling of the "oneness" of all
faiths and
creeds.
Inayat would listen to the evening prayers sung in his household with great
interest, and
was impressed with the spiritual atmosphere produced by the chanting. From a
young age, he
was interested in going beyond thinking about religious issues. He wanted a
direct "link
with God".
He developed considerable skill at the Vina (an Indian instrument). At
eighteen, he went on
a concert tour throughout India intent on reviving some of the older folk
songs which were
being replaced by more popular melodies. He felt these songs carried a
special spiritual
quality which was being lost. This brought him some critical acclaim, and he
was invited to
perform in the courts of Rajas (the rulers of India's princely states who
cooperated with
the British).
Inayat began to seek spiritual guidance at this point. He had seen the face
of a very
spiritual bearded man off and on in his dreams for some time. One day in
Hyderabad, he had a
premonition that something important was about to occur. A short time later,
the man he had
seen in his dreams entered the room.
Both teacher and disciple were immediately drawn to each other. The teacher
was Mohammed Abu
Hasana (or Said Abu Hashim Mudan depending on one's source) whose family
originally came
from Medina, the sacred city of Islam in Saudi Arabia.
Mohammed was a member of the Chishti Sufi Order that was introduced into
India at the close
of the 12th century A.D.
Inayat describes the close relationship the disciple should develop with his
or her teacher:
The next thing in the attainment of the inner life is to seek a spiritual
guide - someone
whom a man can absolutely trust and have every confidence in, someone to
whom one can look
up to, and one with whom one is in sympathy - a relationship which would
culminate in what
is called devotion. And if once he has found someone in life that he
considers his Guru, his
Murshad, his guide, then he should give him all confidence, so that not a
thing is kept
back. If there is something kept back, then what is given might just as well
be taken away,
because everything must be done fully, either have confidence or not have
confidence, either
have trust or not have trust. On the path of perfection, all things must be
done fully.
The Inner Life, Hazrat Inayat Khan, Orient Books, 1980, P. 43)
Inayat maintained close contact with his teacher for four years. During this
time, he
experienced a level of realization that made God a reality in his life. [
GOD-Realization?]
As his master lay dying, the teacher told him: "Go to the Western world my
son and unite
East and West through the magic of your music". Two years later, in
September of 1910,
Inayat sailed for America.
Inayat began to teach and discuss his world view with different people who
would ask what to
call this mode of thought. For a long time, Inayat refused to give it a name
fearing it
would create barriers between people.
He would say only it was ancient wisdom from the one and only source. [
Ancient Wisdom for
Today? ]
He emphasized how none of the great spiritual teachers gave a name to their
religious views.
Finally, knowing that a body of thought needs some identifier to unify it,
he told people it
was Sufism.
Inayat began to travel and lecture first in the United States and later in
Europe.
He traveled widely between 1910 and 1920. He decided to do more intensive
teaching during
the summer in France, and took up residence there near Paris in Suresnes
where he could hold
his "summer schools".
[ Paris FRANCE ?? ]
His teaching strongly emphasized the fundamental oneness of all religions.
He was deeply concerned that many of the western religious traditions had
lost knowledge of
the "science of soul", and the prayer and meditation techniques necessary to
develop higher
consciousness in mankind.
http://www.om-guru.com/html/saints/khan.html
--------------------------
SEAN:
In LTG III, Paul T refers to Hazrat Inayat Khan as "HUZRAT KHAN". Spelling
and defined dates
was never Paul T's forte it appears. <smile>
Please note the following personal experience again ::
"Inayat began to seek spiritual guidance at this point. He had seen the face
of a very
spiritual bearded man off and on in his dreams for some time. ..... the man
he had seen in
his dreams entered the room."
----------------------------
The Chishti Order (Persian: ???? - Cisti) is a Sufi order within the mystic
branches of
Islam which was founded in Chisht, a small town near Herat, about 930 C.E.
and continues to
this day. The Chishti Order is known for its emphasis on love, tolerance,
and openness.[1]
The order was founded by Abu Ishaq Shami ("the Syrian") who belonged to
Syria introduced the
ideas Sufism in the town of Chisht, some 95 miles east of Herat in
present-day western
Afghanistan.[2] Before returning to Syria,[3] Shami initiated, trained and
deputized the son
of the local emir, Abu Ahmad Abdal (d. 966).[4] Under the leadership of Abu
Ahmad's
descendants, the Chishtiya as they are also known, flourished as a regional
mystical
order.[5]
The most famous of the Chishti saints is Moinuddin Chishti (popularly known
as Gharib Nawaz
meaning 'Benefactor of the Poor') who settled in Ajmer, India.
He oversaw the growth of the order in the 13th century as Islamic religious
laws were
canonized. He reportedly saw the Islamic prophet Muhammad in a dream and
then set off on a
journey of discovery.
Other famous saints of the Chishti Order are Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki,
Fariduddin Ganjshakar,
Nizamuddin Auliya, Alauddin Ali Ahmed Sabir Kalyari, Mohammed Badesha Qadri,
and Ashraf
Jahangir Semnani.
Chishti master Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882-1927) was the first to bring the
Sufi path to the
West, arriving in America in 1910 and later settling near Paris, France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chishti_Order
----------------------------
PBS INTERVIEW:
Pir Zia Khan - GRANDSON of Hazrat Inayat Khan
November 8, 2002 Episode no. 610
On the meaning of Sufism:
The word "Sufism" is a rather unfortunate translation, because the suffix
"ism" would seem
to imply a fixed ideology. Sufism in its essence transcends ideology. The
English word
"Sufism" is a translation of the Arabic word that means literally "becoming
a Sufi."
The question then arises, if Sufism is "becoming a Sufi," what is one
becoming? What is a
Sufi? This was a question that was often asked when the word "Sufi" came
into currency many
centuries ago, and the Sufis themselves answered this in many different
ways. Sometimes it
was said a Sufi is "one who breathes well." Another said that the Sufi is
"the son or
daughter of the moment." And another said that a Sufi is "the one who is
like an infant in
the bosom of God."
All of these definitions draw our attention to an inner spiritual posture --
not an outer
identity, not an ideology, but a presence, and this is what Sufism teaches.
On the relation between Sufism and Islam:
Islam itself can be distinguished between name-brand Islam and generic
Islam. The Qur'an
Sharif itself refers to a multiplicity of prophets. It says, "We have sent a
prophet to
every community." And in the hadith literature -- that is to say, in the
transmission of the
sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him -- there is reference to
124,000
messengers. These were all messengers of a single divine message, and that
divine message is
Islam in the generic sense, the essential religion within all existing
religious forms,
including the form that we call "Islam," which is really the Muhammadan
version of Islam.
That is name-brand Islam.
Sufism has a deep, essential connection with both generic Islam, with
universal religiosity,
which is the common dimension of the depth of human experience, which can be
found in the
depths of all world religions, and which can be traced back to the earliest
prophets. And
Sufism as a historical phenomenon also has a special connection with the
dispensation of the
Islamic religion, which is one form out of many of the "res'allah," of the
message.
On bringing Sufism to the West:
My grandfather, Irim Mushid Hazrat Inayat Khan, was the first to teach
Sufism in the western
world. He studied under his own mushid [teacher], Said Abu Hashim Mudani.
And at the very
end of his life, Said Mudani looked into his eyes and said, "Go forth into
the world and
spread the wisdom of Sufism. Unite East and West within the awareness of the
unity of
being."
In 1910, my grandfather set sail with his brothers from Bombay and arrived
in the United
States. In the first years, he said he was learning, rather than teaching.
He did not merely
want to project a foreign teaching upon the people of this land but, on the
contrary, he
wanted to know most deeply the needs of these people, the callings, the
aspiration -- to
understand the psyche of the western world.
He married a western woman, and he gradually unfolded his teaching in
response to the needs
that he perceived in the western people. A number of disciples were
attracted to him, and
eventually he created an organization he called the Sufi Order in the West,
which
represented the lineage of Sufism he had inherited and perpetuated. [It]
represented the
message of the brotherhood of humanity, the kinship of all human beings
within the greater
family of humanity -- the realization that all nations and religions are
organs of a single
body, and that body is the body of humanity; only when all organs are
functioning in harmony
will the health of humanity reach its ideal form.
Pir Mushid said that each religion has sounded a note, but as the globe has
unified in a
single civilization, there is an opportunity for all of the notes to sound
together, that we
may hear the symphony of the message that transcends any single note and
represents the
fullness of the human experience over the millennia.
On teaching Sufism:
The transmission of the esoteric school of Sufism is passed on from heart to
heart, from
teacher to student, and can only be fully received through the profound
connection that
exists between two human hearts that are deeply attuned.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week610/pir.html
Zia Inayat Khan (often referred to as Pir Zia) is the Pir or spiritual
leader of the Sufi
Order International, a universalist Sufi order, and the founder of the Suluk
Academy, Elixir
Magazine, and the Seven Pillars Review, an on-line journal that seeks to
cultivate awareness
of the unity of existence and the qualities of heart that naturally arise
from this
awareness: nobility of character, genuine civility, and creative optimism.
Pir Zia is the son and successor to Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan as leader of the
Sufi Order
International, and grandson of Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, the founder
of the order.
Like his predecessors, Pir Zia carries forward the message of universal
Sufism, with a
particular sensitivity to both contemporary ecological concerns as well as
the esoteric
heritage of classical Indian Sufism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia_Inayat_Khan
A Young 21st century Rebazar tarz with coal black eyes and a nicely cropped
black beard ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZiaQA_leftpic.jpg
----------------------------
An encyclopedic search engine on religion
Topic: Inayat Khan [ available online resources ]
http://www.creedopedia.com/topics/Inayat-Khan?PHPSESSID=b5ep24dcpnrt3u5gjrjkl6fiq7
--------
MORE TRIVIA
Link to other Sufi Islam Masters
http://www.gurusfeet.com/category/spiritual-tags/islam
AND
From early days of Islamic civilization, and because of both internal
factors including
intra-Muslim conflicts and external factors including interfaith debates,
several questions
were being debated by Muslim theologians, such as whether the Qur'an was
created or eternal,
whether evil was created by God, the issue of predestination versus free
will, whether God's
attributes in the Qur'an were to be interpreted allegorically or literally,
etc. Mu'tazili
thought attempted to address all these issues.
Tenets
Mu'tazili tenets focus on the Five Principles:
(1) Al-Tawhid ??????? - Divine Unity. Mu'tazilis believed in the absolute
unity and oneness
of God. In this regard, they are no different from the overwhelming majority
of Muslims.
Nevertheless, the different Muslim schools of theology have differed as to
how to uphold
Divine unity in a way that is consistent with the dictates of both scripture
and sound
reasoning - a task that is extremely sophisticated given that God is
ontologically different
and categorically distinct from nature, humans, and material causality. All
attempts to talk
about the Divine face the severe, perhaps utterly insurmountable, barrier of
using limited
human language to conceptualize the Transcendent.
One example: All Muslim schools of theology faced the dilemma of affirming
Divine
transcendence and Divine attributes, without falling into anthropomorphism
on the one hand,
or emptying Divine attributes, mentioned in scripture, of any concrete
meaning on the other
[4]. The Mu'tazili way of doing this was to deny the existence of attributes
distinct from
Divine essence. In other words, God is, for instance, omniscient, but He
knows through His
essence rather than by having separate knowledge apart from Him. This
assertion was to avoid
the multiplicity of co-eternals - something that may impugn the absolute
unity and oneness
of God, according to Mu'tazilis. In addition, they resorted to metaphorical
interpretations
of Qur'anic verses or Prophetic reports with seemingly anthropomorphic
content. Many other
Muslim theologians did likewise. Others opted for either abstaining from
making judgments
concerning these texts, or to affirm them "without knowing how."
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mu'tazili
Sean
REPOSTED
Early Teachings
May 30th 2009
I think it is fair to say Lane established a focus on Kirpal Singh's
troop because of his involvement with them and our focus has been
limited to identifying Sri Twitchell with them. Moreover, the focus
also seems to be on personalities within the evolution of Lane's group
and not places. In my opinion this is a symptom of those with an
unfulfilled hunger for power like the Gollum in Lord of the Rings.
The short video clip on this site is a demonstration of Peddar Zasq's
statement in the Shariyat that goes something like this, "I have come.
Now I am gone." http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/ Scroll down to see
Hazrat Inayat Khan - circa 1926. Spiritual teachers moved around a
lot contrary to the Esalen-Sausalito New Ager image that gurus or
Spiritual teachers sat still and twiddled their thumbs sipping Lord
Graystoke's tea when not meditating.
It is my opinion, Sri Paul was led indirectly by Rebazar Tarz to
Allahbad where he encountered Sudar Singh. Allahabad, India, lies
southeast of Lahore, India. Lahore is directly south of Srinigar and
easily reached. New Delhi lies directly as the crow flies in between
Lahore and Allahabad on a main route of travel. The reason for my
focus stems from the similarity in succinct thought I see in Sri
Twitchell's writings and the statements on this page for
http://www.chishti.ru/i_man.htm . I had thought the Radhasoami people
were in Agra, India, but it appears they are further west on the coast
of India and closer to their Sikh leanings in the Punjab. But on the
other hand; Beas, India, is very close to Lahore.
What I have not seen discussed is the association of Sri Twitchell's
Sufi connections with the ECK. The Sufi center located in Lahore is
one of the oldest Sufi organizations in existence. This is where you
will find the Tariq or order, Chishtiyyah. Other orders of South Asia
are the Naqshbandiyyah, Qadiriyyah and Suhrawardiyya.
The names of several of their Masters are as follows which the Lanes
do not seem to give any thought: The winged heart was a frequent
visual experience in Oregon and Washington.
Data Ganj Bakhsh, 990-1077
Shah Mohammed Yusuf Gardezi, 1026-1152
Qazi Hamiduddin Nagori, 1070-1246
Hazrat Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti, 1141-1230
Bahauddin Zakariya, 1170-1267
Khwaja Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki, 1173-1235
Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, 1177-1274
Baba Farid-ud-din Mas'ud Ganj-e-Shakar, 1188-1280
Shaikh Sadruddin Arif, d. 1286
Syed Jalaluddin Surkh-Posh Bukhari, 1192-1291
Shaikh Ruknuddin Abul-Fath, 1251-1335
Khwaja Fakhruddin Abul-Khair, d. 1263
Shaikh Sharf-ud-din Bu Ali Qalandar, 1209-1324
Sufi Hamiduddin Nagori, d. 1274
Syed Alauddin Ahmad Sabir, 1196-1291
Shaikh Badruddin Ghaznavi,
Shaikh Najibuddin Mutawakkil,
Nizamuddin Awliya, 1238-1325
Shamsuddin Turk Panipati, d. 1316
Qazi Mohyiuddin Kashani, d. 1319
Amir Khusrau, 1253-1325
Maulana Fakhruddin Marozi, d. 1336
Shaikh Burhanuddin Gharib, d. 1337
Khwaja Husamuddin Sokhtah, d. 1340
Nasiruddin Mahmud Chiragh of Delhi, 1274-1356
Qutbuddin Munawwar,
Shaikh Jalaluddin Panipati, d. 1364
Shaikh Sharfuddin Ahmad bin Yahya Muniri, d. 1381
Syed Sadruddin Raja Qattal, d. 1403
Mir Syed Ashraf Jahangir Simnani, 1308-1405
Syed Muhammad Al Hussaini Gisudaraz, 1321-1422
Maulana Alauddin Nili,
Maulana Shams-ud-din Mohammed Yahya,
Khwaja Amir Hasan,
Shaikh Sadruddin Tabib-e-Dilha,
Shaikh Kamaluddin,
Shaikh Nurul Haq Wad-din,
Shaikh Fathullah,
Shaikh Ahmad Abdul Haq Radolvi, d. 1432
Shah Badiuddin Madar, 1341-1435
Qutb-e-Alam Sayyid Burhanuddin, d. 1453
Shaikh Abul-Fatah Jaunpuri,
Shaikh Mohammed Arif Radolvi, d. 1493
Shaikh Mohammed,
Syed Abdul Malik,
Shaikh Sarang,
Shah Meena,
Shaikh Ahmad Khatto,
Syed Shah Buddhan,
Shaikh Abdullah Shattari,
Shaikh Darvesh Mohammed,
Husamuddin Manakpuri,
Khwaja Husain Nagori, d. 1496
Shaikh Sa'duddin Khairabadi,
Samauddin Suhrawardi,
Shaikh Ahmad Mujad Shaybani,
Khwaja Khanu,
Maulana Shah Jamali,
Qutb-e Alam Abdul Quddus Gangohi, d. 1537
Shah Abdur Razzaq Jhanjana, d. 1542
Shaikh Hamza,
Shaikh Aman,
Shah Abdur Rahman Janbaz Qalandar,
Shaikh Salim Chishti, 1478-1572
Shah Nizamuddin Aurangabadi, d. 1582
Madhu Lal Husain, 1538-1599
Khwaja Muhammad Baqi Billah, 1563-1603
Mian Mir, 1550-1635
Shah Abul Ma'ali, 1552-1615
Shaikh Ahmad Mujaddid Alf Sani, ~1564-1624
Shah Abdul Haq,
Shaikh Mohammed Sadiq,
Syed Shah Amir Abul-Ila,
Hazrat Sarmad,
Mir Syed Mohammed,
Syed Dost Mohammed,
Shaikh Dawood,
Shah Mohammed Farhad,
Syed Nur Mohammed,
Mohammed Sallim,
Sultan Bahu, 1628-1691
Miran Sayyid Shah Bhika, 1636-1719
Shaikh Kalimullah of Shahjahanabad, d. 1729
Bulleh Shah, 1680-1757
Shah Abdul Latif Bhita'i, 1689-1752
Mirza Mazhar Jan-e-Janaan, 1699-1781
Shah Waliullah, 1703-1762
Syed Waris Shah, 1706-1798
Maulana Mohammed Fakhruddin,
Shah Abul-Barkat,
Syed Mohammed Azam,
Shah Abdul Aziz, 1745-1823
Shah Muhammad Maroof Shahidullah Qadiri, d. 1834
Shaikh Abu Sa'id Dehlavi, d. 1834
Shah Niyaz Ahmad Barelvi d.1834
Shah Mohammed Afaq, 1747-1835
Khwaja Muhammad Sulaiman, 1770-1848
Shah Fazle Rahma Gujmuradabadi, 1794-1895
Syed Sahib Hussaini of Tekmal, 1805-1880
Hafiz Musa,
Shah Abu Sa'id,
Hafiz Syed Mohammed Husain,
Shah Nasiruddin,
Syed Mohammed Ghous Ali Shah,
Syed Malik Mohammed Alam,
Qazi Abdur Rahim Shah Gudri Baba, d. 1926
Nawab Gudri Shah Baba,
Shaikh Badruddin Sulaiman,
Maulana Badruddin Ishaq,
Shaikh Jamaluddin Ahmad,
Syed Kabir-ud-din Hasan,
Makhdoom Shaikh Mohammed,
Makhdoom Shaikh Abd-ul-Qadir,
Daud Bandagi Kirmani,1513-1575
Shah Bilawal,
Shah Kamal,
Shah Jamal,
Shah Chiragh,
Shah Abu Ishaq,
Dargahi Shah,
Khwaja Nur Mohammed,
Syed Abdullah Shah Naqshbandi Qadri,
Khwaja Naqeebullah Shah of Kasur Pakistan
Mahbooballah
Maulvi Abdul Qadeer Siddiqui, 1870-1962
From the link above a statement on renunciation and the Supreme Name.
http://www.chishti.ru/d_name.htm
First is the renunciation of the world
Second is the renunciation of the world hereafter
Third is the renunciation of the desires of the self
Fourth is the renunciation of everything other than God.
[See chapter 7 in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad which also discusses anger's
causes]
And last, compare this temple to ours. I do not know if this one is in
Lahore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soefietempel_Katwijk.jpg
The whole point I have to share is to look outside what we are
accustomed to seeing in the context of ECKANKAR's historical image. No
doubt someone took Cletus Hadskyns up on studying comparative
linguistics in an earlier post. If so, then compare the succinct
linguistics of our writers and those of some of the groups in Lahore
and in the Chishti link above to see similarities in our Consciousness
Fractals. The Radhasoami mind stuff has never appealed to me for this
reason.
JR
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3b56f$0$1785$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sean
Main article: Mahapuruxiya dharma
Sankaradeva used the form of Krishna to preach devotion to a single God (eka
sarana), who can be worshiped solely by uttering His various names (naam).
slave to God).
Moreover, unlike the 'Gaudiya Vaishnavism' of Bengal, Radha is not worshiped
along with Krishna. In uttering the name of God, Hari, Rama, Narayana and
Krishna are most often used.
Sankaradeva himself and thereligion in general are particularly antagonistic
to saktism which was strongly prevalent inAssam at the time. This probably
explains the non-use of Radha as an icon.
His famous debate with Madhavadeva, who was a staunch sakta (devotee of
Shakti) earlier, and Madhavadeva's subsequent conversion to Vaishnavism, is
often cited as the single most epoch-making event inthe history of the
neo-Vaishnavite movement in Assam.
Madhavadeva, an equally multi-talented person, became his most celebrated
disciple. A non-brahmin, Srimanta Sankaradeva started a system of initiation
(saran lowa) into his religion.
He caused a huge Social revolution by fighting against anti-social elements
like casteism prevailing at that time. He initiated people of all castes and
religions, including Muslims.
After initiation, the devotee is expected to adhere to the religious tenets
of eka sarana. Failure to adhere to these tenets led to ex-communication in
certain cases.
Though he himself married (twice), had children and led the life of a
householder, his disciple Madhavadeva did not.
Some of his followers today follow celibate monkhood (kevaliya bhakat) in
the Vaishnavite monasteries---the sattras.
The people who practice his religion are called variously as Mahapurushia,
Sarania or Sankari.
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva#Eka_Sarana
KABIR (fifteenth century CE) was one of the most famous saints and mystics
in the Indian tradition. Kabir is unique in that he is revered by Hindus and
Muslims alike, yet his personality and his biography remain shrouded in
mystery. The only certain fact about him is that he was born a Julaha, a
low-caste Muslim weaver, in or near the city of Banaras toward the middle of
the fifteenth century CE, at a time when North India was under the rule of
the Lodi dynasty. The Julahas were probably recent converts to Islam, and it
is not certain that Kabir himself was circumcised. He refers to the Muslims
as "Turks."
The legendary biography of Kabir includes his alleged persecution by the
Muslim ruler Sikander Lodi and his initiation (presumably in the Ramaite
faith) by a rather mysterious Hindu saint known as Ramanand.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/kabr-eorl-08/
Ramananda (1400?-1470?) was a vaishnava sant, a Ramayat, a devotee of The
Lord Almighty (Ram, GOD). He lived in Varanasi. Like other sant-poets of
northern India, he communicated in vernacular Hindi, and accepted disciples
of all castes. Kabir mentions him as his guru. Ramananda was a disciple of
Raghavananda, an ascetic of the Sri Vaishnava order, expounded by Ramanuja
and was known for his downplaying the role of caste.
" Let no one ask a man's caste or with whom he eats. If a man is
devoted to Hari, he becomes Hari's own. Hari, refers to Krsna "
he had disciples from all castes . Ramananda's most famous disciples were
Anantananda,Bhavananda, Dhanna Bhagat, Kabir, Nabha, Naraharyananda,
Pipa, Ravidas, Sain,Sukhananda, and Tulsidas.
It is from the Parichai of Anantdas and Satik Bhaktamal of Priyadas that we
know Ravidas was initiated by the great Ramananda.
The Ramanandi Sampradaya consider Ramananda to be their founder. The
medicents of this order were known as "vairagi".
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Ramananda
See also
a.. Sant Mat
Sant Mat was a loosely associated group of teachers that became prominent in
the northern part of the Indian sub-continent from about the 13th century.
Theologically, their teachings are distinguished by an inward, loving
devotion to a divine principle, and socially by an egalitarianismopposed to
the qualitative distinctions of the Hindu caste system, and to those between
Hindusand Muslims.
The sant lineage can be divided into two main groups: The northern group of
Sants from the provinces of the Punjab, (Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh), who
expressed themselves mainly in vernacular Hindi, and the southern group,
whose language is archaicMarathi, represented by Namdev and other Sants of
Maharashtra.
Etymology
The expression Sant Mat cannot be adequately translated into English, but
literally means the 'point of view of the Sants.' The term Sant is derived
from the Sanskrit sat (??) and has overlapping usages (truth, real, reality,
honest, right.) Its root meaning is "one who knows the truth" or "one who
has experienced Ultimate Reality."
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Sant_Mat
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3be00$0$15178$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sean
"XXXXXXXXXXXXX's story is told differently by his lineage of teachers, from
other lineages, and later by the xyzxyzxyzzzzzzz's off-shoots"
========================
TULSIDAS, late medieval Indian poet whose plays and other works have had
great influence on Hindu devotionalism, especially in communities that make
Rama the focus of worship.
Despite his great popularity, or perhaps because of it, very little accurate
information is available about the life of Tulsidas. There is abundant
material about him in the form of hagiographies and oral legends, but these
legitimize his saintly life and the holy nature of his literary works rather
than record the actual events of the biography.
While there is disagreement as to the date of Tulsi's birth, his death is
generally agreed to have occurred in 1623.
The traditionally accepted date of his birth is 1503, which would mean that
he lived for 120 years. This is logical from the point of view of his
hagiographers, because the full life span of a sinless human being is
believed to be 120 years.
Modern scholars consider that he was born probably in 1532 to a brahman
family in an eastern Hindi-speaking area. In his Kavitavali, Tulsi writes
that he was born to a very poor family and that his father and mother did
not welcome his birth. It is believed that he was born under an unfortunate
conjunction of planets, which meant that for astrological reasons his
parents had to abandon him.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/tulsds-eorl-14/
=====================
Sant Mat
The first generation of north Indian sants, (which included Kabir and
Raidas), appeared in the region of Benares in the mid 15th century.
Preceding them were two notable 13th and 14th century figures, Namdev and
Ramananda. The latter, according to tradition, was a Vaishnava ascetic who
initiated Kabir, Raidas, and other sants.
Ramanand's story is told differently by his lineage of "Ramanandi" monks, by
other Sants preceding him, and later by the Sikhs.
Some of the more famous sants in Indian history have included the Sikh
Gurus, of whom Guru Nanak was of the more notable.
What is known is that Ramananda accepted students of all castes, a fact that
was contested by the orthodox Hindus of that time, and that his students
formed the first generation of Sants.[5]
These Sants developed a culture of being close to marginalised humans in
society including women, and the untouchables (Atishudras).
Some of the more notable Sants include Namdev (d.1350), Kabir(d.1518), Nanak
(d.1539), Mirabai (d.1545), Surdas (d.1573), Tulsidas (d.1623), andTukaram
(d. 1650). The 'tradition of the Sants' (sant parampara) remained
non-sectarian, though a number of Sant poets have been considered as the
founders of sects. Some of these may bear the Sant's name, but were
developed after them by later followers such as Kabir Panth, Dadu Panth,
Dariya Panth, Advait Mat, and Radhasoami.[6]
Nanak, one of the most notable Sant-poets, is the first of the ten Gurus of
the Sikhs, and considered the founder of theSikh religion.[1].
Only a small minority of religious Hindus have formally followed Sant Mat,
but the tradition has considerably influenced Hindus across sects and
castes. Bhajans (devotional songs) attributed to past Sants such as Mirabai
are widely listened to in India and in Hindu communities around the world.
The Sant tradition is the only one in medieval and modern India which has
successfully crossed some barriers between Hindu and Muslim blocks.[3]
Related movements
Medieval Sufi poets such as Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi, as well as Sindhi
poets, are considered to have many similarities with the poet-sants of Sant
Mat.[7]
The Radhasoami movement in North India regards itself as the main repository
of the tradition of the Sants and their teachings, as well as their approach
to religious endeavors, and presents itself as the living incarnation of the
Sant tradition.
The most notable being Radhasoami Satsang Beas, situated on the banks of the
river Beas, whose current living master in Maharaj Baba Gurinder Singh
Dhillon.
According to Mark Juergensmeyer, that claim is also made by the
Kabir-panthis, the Sikhs and other movements that continue to find the
insights from the Sant tradition valid today.[8]
According to Gordon Melton,the teachings of Prem Rawat are derived from Sant
Mat.[9]
The 20th century religious movement Eckankar is also considered by David
Lane to be an offshoot of the Sant Mat tradition.[10]
James R. Lewis refers to these movements as "expressions of an older faith
in a new context."[11]
Sant Poetry
Poem by Kabir
Are you looking for me? I am in the next seat.
My shoulder is against yours.
you will not find me in the stupas, not in Indian shrine
rooms, nor in synagogues, nor in cathedrals:
not in masses, nor kirtans, not in legs winding
around your own neck, nor in eating nothing but
vegetables.
When you really look for me, you will see me
instantly -
you will find me in the tiniest house of time.
Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God?
He is the breath inside the breath.[12]
Poem by Nanak
If you bestow your glance of grace, through grace we find the Guide
[Satguru]
This soul first passes many births, at last the Guide is heard
No giver is greater that the Guide, all people make this well
The Guide once more imparts the Truth, to those who kill the Self
The Guide who makes us grasp reality.
Asa ki Var M1 4. AG456[1]
Poem by Mirabai
I am true to my Lord,
O my companions, there is nothing to be ashamed of now
Since I have been seen dancing openly.
In the day I have no hunger
At night I am restless and cannot sleep.
Leaving these troubles behind, I go to the other side;
A hidden knowledge has taken hold of me.
My relations surround me like bees.
But Mira is the servant of her beloved Giridhar.[13]
See also
a.. Advait Mat
b.. Bhakti
c.. Bhakti movement
d.. Contemporary Sant Mat movement
e.. Hinduism
f.. Radhasoami
g.. Science of Spirituality
h.. Sikhism
i.. Sufism
j.. Surat Shabd Yoga
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Sant_Mat
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3c170$0$30507$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sean
Timeline (1763 - 1843)
Although Tulsidas (sometimes referred to respectfully as Tulsi Sahib) lived
relatively recently, few details about his life can be stated with
certainty. He may have been part of the royal family of Poona.
One biographical account suggests he was engaged to be married against his
will. On the day before the wedding, he ran away and took up the life of a
sadhu, a spiritual mendicant wandering through forests, going from town to
town, engaged in meditation. In the early 1800s, he settled in Hathras in
Uttar Pradesh, where he spent the rest of his life.
Tulsidas practiced Surat Shabd Yoga, or the Yoga of Sound. He is
particularly revered within the Sant Mat Sikh tradition.
http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/T/Tulsidas/index.htm
LINEAGE TIMELINE
http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/TL_1600_present.htm#Tulsidas
CO-INCIDENTAL NOTE
One of my best friends, soon after I met him in 1979 both he and his wife
became Initiates of Sri Chimnoy on a visit to Australia. ..... Chimnoy is
still currently the present Master of this Lineage.
----------------------------
anyway, in closing this little run of posts ::::::::::
History & Essence of the
Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism
AUM
INTRODUCTION
The history of a religious institution usually begins with the
account of its formal establishment. In this sense, the story of the
Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism and the Mahatma Gandhi Memorial
Foundation might begin with the founding of the Sat-Sanga by Swami Yogananda
Paramhansa in Boston in 1920. ("Sat-Sanga" signifies the ideal and the
realization of constant and complete identification and oneness with God.)
However, to mark the greater significance of the church and Gandhi Center,
this history will begin with the concepts and ideals which are their
essence.
This history will, of course, include important dates in the life of
these institutions. However, it will emphasize the search for perfection or
oneness with God as seen in the lives and teachings of philosophers and
spiritual leaders, past and present.
All these philosophers and spiritual leaders, including our line of
gurus, shared a belief in Absolute Monism which is basic to the
establishment and development of the Self-Revelation Church and the Gandhi
Memorial Center.
SWAMI PREMANANDA (1903-1995) was initiated and ordained by his Guru in India
in 1920. He came to the United States in 1928. He carried on the spiritual
work of these great Gurus in the nation's capital with the highest integrity
and untiring zeal. He was consecrated as a Swami by Swami Yogananda
Paramhansa in 1941. He was the founder of both the Self-
Revelation Church and the Mahatma Gandhi Memorial Foundation.
http://www.self-revelationchurch.org/
=================================
dear old WIKI
Paul Twitchell (born John Paul Twitchell) (October 22, 1908(?) - September
17, 1971) was an American spiritual writer, author and founder of the group
known as Eckankar. He is accepted by the members of that group as the
Mahanta, or Living ECK Master of his time. He directed the development of
the group through to the time of his death. His spiritual name is believed
by Eckists (students of Eckankar) to be Peddar Zaskq.
In 1950, he joined Swami Premananda's Self-Realization Church of Absolute
Monism, an offshoot of Paramahamsa Yogananda's Self-Realization Fellowship.
He lived on the grounds of the church, and edited the church's
periodical,The Mystic Cross. He was asked to leave the church in 1955, the
same year that he broke up with his first wife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Twitchell
Isn't Paul's birthday supposed to be 22 October 1909, according to Doug
Marman ????
<smile>
Sean's additional info about Paul's Manuscripts
Books - It appears to me that all the following were pre-written as
Manuscripts prior to the year 1964, and some were then already over 10 years
old.
[ does not include the LTG series of letters ]
a.. Twitchell, Paul (1967) The Tiger's Fang, Illuminated Way Press, ISBN
0-914766-17-1
b.. Twitchell, Paul (1988) Dialogues with the Master, Illuminated Way
Publishing, Inc.; ISBN 0-914766-78-3
c.. Twitchell, Paul (1969) Eckankar: The Key to Secret Worlds, Forward by
Brad Steiger. Illuminated Way Press, ISBN 1-57043-154-X
d.. Twitchell, Paul (1971) Herbs: The Magic Healers, Eckankar, Library of
Congress Catalog Number: 86-80814
e.. Twitchell, Paul (1972) The Eck-Vidya Ancient Science of Prophecy, ISBN
1-57043-030-6
f.. Twitchell, Paul (1999) Stranger by the River, Eckankar ISBN
1-57043-136-1
g.. Twitchell, Paul (1988) Far Country, Illuminated Way Pub., ISBN
0-914766-91-0
h.. Twitchell, Paul (1998) Sharyat Ki-Sugmad Book I, Eckankar, ISBN
1-57043-048-9
i.. Twitchell, Paul (1998) The Spiritual Notebook, Eckankar, 1998, ISBN
1-57043-037-3
j.. Twitchell, Paul (1999) The Flute of God, Eckankar; ISBN 1-57043-032-2
THE LAST WORD FOR WIKI
This article has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss
these issues on thetalk page.
a.. It needs additional references or sources for verification. Tagged
since August 2008.
b.. It resembles a fan site. Tagged since August 2008.
c.. Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since December 2007.
d.. It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since
August 2008.
e.. Its neutrality or factuality may be compromised by weasel words.
Tagged since August 2008.
=============
OK thanks Sean ;-)
=============
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3c54b$0$30507$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sean
line in DC in the 50's
"In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a
literal return of Jesus to earth....A thousand Christs sent to earth would
not redeem its people unless they themselves become Christlike by purifying
and expanding their individual consciousness to receive therein the second
coming of the Christ Consciousness, as was manifested in Jesus....Contact
with this Consciousness, experienced in the ever new joy of meditation, will
be the real second coming of Christ - and it will take place right in the
devotee's own consciousness."
-Paramahansa
Yogananda
THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
The Resurrection of the Christ Within You
A revelatory commentary on the original teachings of Jesus
Paramahansa Yogananda
http://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/scoc_frameset-des.html
Home page.
http://www.yogananda-srf.org/
Wiki History
Paramahansa Yogananda (Bengali: ?????? ???????? P�romoh�ngsho Joganondo,
Sanskrit: ?????? ???????? Paramaha?sa Yogana?da; January 5, 1893-March 7,
1952), born Mukunda Lal Ghosh(Bengali: ??????? ??? ??? Mukundo Lal Ghosh),
was an Indian yogi and guru who introduced many westerners to the teachings
of meditation and Kriya Yoga through his book, Autobiography of a Yogi.[1]
Youth
Yogananda was born in Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh, India into a devout Bengali
kshatriya family.[2] According to his younger brother, Sananda,[3] from his
earliest years young Mukunda's awareness and experience of the spiritual was
far beyond the ordinary. In his youth he sought out many of India's Hindu
sages and saints, hoping to find an illuminated teacher to guide him in his
spiritual quest.[4]
Yogananda's seeking after various saints mostly ended when he met his guru,
Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri, in 1910, at the age of 17. He describes his first
meeting with Yukteswar as a rekindling of a relationship that had lasted for
many lifetimes:
We entered a oneness of silence; words seemed the rankest superfluities.
Eloquence flowed in soundless chant from heart of master to disciple. With
an antenna of irrefragable insight I sensed that my guru knew God, and would
lead me to Him. The obscuration of this life disappeared in a fragile dawn
of prenatal memories. Dramatic time! Past, present, and future are its
cycling scenes. This was not the first sun to find me at these holy
feet![5][6]
Later on Sri Yukteswar informed Yogananda that he had been sent to him by
Mahavatar Babaji for a special purpose.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda
THEREFORE we should add this again ::
Mahavatar Babaji is the name given to an Indian saint by Lahiri Mahasaya and
several of his disciples[1]who met Mahavatar Babaji between 1861 and 1935.
Some of these meetings were described byParamahansa Yogananda in his book
Autobiography of a Yogi (1946), including a first hand telling of Yogananda's
own meeting with Mahavatar Babaji.[2] Another first hand account was given
by Sri Yukteswar Giri in his book The Holy Science.[3] All of these
accounts, along with additional meetings with Mahavatar Babaji, are
described in various biographies[4][5][6] of those mentioned by Yogananda.
Mahavatar Babaji's given name and date of birth are not known, so those who
met him during that period all called him by the title first given to him by
Lahiri Mahasaya.[2][6] "Mahavatar" means "great avatar", and "Babaji" simply
means "revered father". Some of the encounters included two or more
witnesses-discussions between those who met Mahavatar Babaji indicate that
they all met the same person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
FOR MORE INFO ABOUT Mahavatar Babaji, Satguru or Sadguru, Sant Mat, Guru
nanak, and many others and their connections then please SEE THIS THREAD ON
a.r.e.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/thread/635aed0ce53a094a#
===========
OK done :-)
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3cb90$0$16741$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Kinpa
> Here's a little add-on, which connects back to Paul's time with this group
> line in DC in the 50's
> "In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a
> literal return of Jesus to earth....A thousand Christs sent to earth would
> not redeem its people unless they themselves become Christlike by purifying
> and expanding their individual consciousness to receive therein the second
> coming of the Christ Consciousness, as was manifested in Jesus....Contact
> with this Consciousness, experienced in the ever new joy of meditation, will
> be the real second coming of Christ - and it will take place right in the
> devotee's own consciousness."
> -Paramahansa
> Yogananda
>
> THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
> The Resurrection of the Christ Within You
> A revelatory commentary on the original teachings of Jesus
>
> Paramahansa Yoganandahttp://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/scoc_frameset-des.html
>
>
> Wiki History
>
> Paramahansa Yogananda (Bengali: ?????? ???????? Pôromohôngsho Joganondo,
>
> ===========
>
> OK done :-)
>
> "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> read more »
interesting stuff,thanks for bringing all of it together in one
thread~!
Sean
here's another example .. looks to me that extracts from things like I have
posted here, has been used in pulling togther this talk by michael turner
[[ and no i'm not preaching for MT ]
FIRE ON THE MOUNTAIN:
GURU NANAK - THE TORCHBEARER OF NAAM
- by Michael Turner
� April 1996, 2008
"Almost ablaze,
Still you don't feel the heat."
- Robert Hunter
The next Light and Sound Master I want to discuss is
Guru Nanak. A contemporary of Kabir (1440 - 1519), Nanak
(1469 - 1539) is best known as the first guru of the Sikh faith.
After his passing, nine more gurus followed. They
were: Angad, Amardas, Ramdas, Arjan, Har Gobind, Hari
Rai, Hari Krishan, Teg Bahadur and Gobind Singh.
Gobind Singh departed in 1708, at which time the
official line of living Sikh Gurus ended. After this time,
orthodox Sikhs put their faith in the Adi Granth Sahib, a
compilation of devotional poetry by Nanak and his first
four successors, as well as other awakened souls such as Kabir,
Namdev and Ravidas. Devotees of Sant Mat, on the other
hand, believe that the chain of spiritual Masters of Naam (in
which they include the nine successors, as well as Kabir,
Ravidas, Namdev, and other mystic poets of the same era,
such as Mira Bai and Dadu Sahib) to be unbroken.
My first conscious exposure to Guru Nanak came in
the summer of 1975, when I was taking a kundalini yoga class
at a Sikh Ashram here in Tucson. On the wall of the yoga room
was a large drawing of Him, above which were the words,
"Ekankar Sat Nam Sri Wah Guru." At the ripe old age of 16,
I didn't know much about Guru Nanak, or the Sikhs for that
matter. But the ashram felt nice, and the mantra on the wall
had a powerful resonance.
This resonance stayed with me when I went back to
Thousand Oaks, California, to finish high school that fall.
The mantra replaced all others I had tried and became my
daily companion. Within weeks of my return, I was introduced
to the Sound Current Teachings through an American path
called, coincidentally, "Eckankar."
I was immediately enraptured with these teachings, so
much so that I soon forgot the ashram, and the Sikh Satguru
who helped light the way for me to find them. It wasn't until
I took the David Lane challenge a few years ago, and began
researching the historical roots of the Light and Sound
teachings, that I fully began to appreciate the profound impact
of this great soul.
A couple of things which I initially found interesting
were the fact that Guru Nanak was known in his time as the
"torchbearer" of the Way of Naam (in the same way that
Eckists refer to Rebazar Tarzs as the "Torchbearer of Eck"),
that many of the holy sites were called "Golden Temples"
and that the guardians of these temples were called "Mahantas"
(two significant words in the Eckankar theology) Given my
nearly two decades of tutelage within the structure of Eckankar,
I found the similarities most fascinating, and had to know more.
Guru Nanak was born in the village of Talwandi (know
called "Nankana Sahib") on April 15, 1469. Unlike Kabir,
who was raised in a poor, low caste, Moslem weaver household,
Nanak was born to a relatively prosperous Hindu family. His
father, Kalyan Chand, was of the Kshatriya caste (second only
to Brahmin in rank and prestige), and served as the village
accountant, keeping rent records for the local Moslem landlord.
This socio-economic and cultural background is important to
note, as it gives valuable insight into Nanak's way of presenting
the path of Naam.
Both Kabir and Nanak taught that Naam superceded
all creeds and social structures. Both spoke at length about
the fallacies of punditry and the dangers of spiritual pride.
However, whereas Kabir was more strident and didactic in
slicing through the veils of illusion, Nanak was more gentle
in expressing the same paradigm. I attribute this largely to
Kabir's dire financial and cultural straits, in which He was
constantly under attack from both Hindu Brahmins and
Islamic Pirs, whereas Nanak was more prosperous, seemed
to get along better with His neighbors and was thus able to
dispatch illusion more gently and gracefully. In other words,
He spoke the language of both His Islamic and Hindu peers,
and was thus able to communicate the teachings in a less
threatening manner, in a way they could better understand
and accept.
Nanak was, from most accounts, fairly well schooled
in several dialects, including Persian and Panjabi. He was also
comfortable with Hindu and Islamic theology (owing largely
to the Moslem political dominance of India), and appeared to
be well acquainted with such mystical Sufi poets as Jelaluddin
Rumi. Whether Sufis who had been initiated in Rumi�s lineage
came to India and made contact with Nanak (and Kabir) remains
to be seen - but I strongly suspect such was the case.
From the time Nanak was a child, He appeared to have
been a natural mystic. At the age of seven, He astonished his
teacher by composing an acrostic poem in which each line began
sequentially with one of the 35 letters of the Persian alphabet.
What was even more remarkable than His literacy, however,
was the strong devotional bent of the verses, and the fact that
the point of the whole poem was about the uselessness of outer
language in trying to describe the indescribable. Even then,
His mind was turned towards God. To give you an idea of
this seven year-old's mindset, I've included four of the
lines below:
ALIF: Remember God and banish neglect of
Him from thy heart. Accursed the life of him
in this world who breathes without uttering
the Name.
BE: Renounce heresy and walk according
to the Shariat. Be humble before everyone,
and call no one bad.
GAF: Mans' mind is wanton; if you restrain
it, you shall put your feet firmly on the way
to haqiqat.
WAW: They become saints who
associate with the true. The more they
remember God, the more they love Him.
As a result of this innately contemplative nature, Guru
Nanak - while literate and well-read - was not exactly a Rhodes
scholar. He was somewhat of a daydreamer, preferring to
explore the inner regions, and discover the root sources behind
outer theories and philosophies. He intuitively sensed that true
knowledge and wisdom would not be found through the mere
reading of books, or engaging in the sophistry of intellectual
debates. It is said that, when He was asked about his acrostic,
He replied that He sought the meaning behind the letters.
This is in keeping with the Sant Mat perspective that
there are two types of language: Varnatmik (that which can
be written or spoken with the physical tongue) and Dhunatmik
(that which cannot be written or spoken - the Nameless Name,
the Voice of Silence).
As Nanak entered adolescence, His family tried to find
ways of keeping Him gainfully employed, grooming Him for life's
responsibilities befitting one of His caste. For a time, He tended
cattle. But His heart wasn't really in it, and He would often
be found lost in reverie under a tree. At one point, His father
tried to encourage Him to follow in his footsteps as an
accountant. This was short-lived, however, as Nanak had a
habit of taking money which had been entrusted to Him and
giving it to wandering Sadhus.
Finally, Nanak was sent to live with his sister, Nanaki,
in Sultanpur, in hopes that someone closer to His own age
might be able to reason with Him. Instead, just the opposite
happened. One morning He did not return from bathing in
the river. People searched for Him, to no avail, and He was
almost given up for dead.
Three days later, He returned home. When asked
where He had been, Nanak replied that He had been taken to
the court of the Supreme Lord, Sat Naam. Then He said two
remarkable things.
The first was very similar to Kabir's revelation a few
decades earlier: "There is no Hindu. There is no Musalman
(Moslem)." These few words reflected a perspective which
was to have a revolutionary impact on Indian philosophy and
culture. He then elaborated on this precept by reciting for the
first time the Mul Mantra (Prelude) to the Jap Ji, which begins,
"Ekankar Sat Naam, Karta Purakh:"
"There is One Reality (Ek = 1,
Ankar = Reality or God), the Unmanifest
manifested. Ever existent, It is Naam. The
Creator, pervading all; without fear; without
enmity; the Timeless, the Unborn, the Self-
Existent - complete within ItSelf. Through
the favor of Its true servant, the Guru, It may
be realized. It was, when there was nothing.
It was, before all ages began. It existeth now,
O Nanak, and shall exist forevermore."
The Jap Ji proceeds for 38 stanzas elaborating on this
point. Nanak Sahib states very clearly that caste, creed,
culture, economic status and schooling were (and are)
irrelevant when it came to knowing God. God knowledge,
He said, could not be acquired from any schooling or book
learning. It could only be had by direct communion with
God's Name (Naam, Shabda or Word). This theme he
reiterated constantly, and it comes up repeatedly as well in
another of his epic poems, the "Asa Di Vars." One portion
of this classic work states,
"We fill up the carts with books we
have read; we carry them along with us
after reading. We fill up boats with books
we have read; we bury them in the earth after
reading. We read year after year; we read
month after month. We read all our life long;
we read with every breath. Nanak says, Only
one thing is counted; all the rest is the vain
prattle of the ego.
The more one writes, the more one is
burned; the more one wanders in the places of
pilgrimage, the more one�s talk is useless.
The more one takes to costumes, the more
pain he gives to his body. The jiva suffers his
own doings. And as one does not eat food, he
loses the taste of his tongue; he suffers by
loving the other one (other than God).
Those who do not wear clothes suffer
day and night; they are lost in keeping silence.
How will we wake up from this slumber without
the Master?
One walks barefoot, he gets what he has
earned; he eats dirt and throws ashes on his head.
Such a blind and foolish one loses his honor;
Without Naam, he does not get anywhere.
One lives in the wilderness, among graves
and cremation places; such blind ones do not
know, and repent later. He who meets the
Satguru becomes happy; he makes the Naam
of the Lord dwell within his mind. Nanak says,
The one on whom He is gracious gets it;
becoming free of hope and fear, he burns his
egoism with the Shabda.
Your devotees are pleasing to You;
they look beautiful at Your door singing Your
glory. Nanak says, Unless it is written in our
karma, we cannot come to Your door; we
wander about.
One does not understand his root;
still he counts himself all in all. I am a low-
caste bard; the others call themselves high-
caste. I yearn for those who meditate on You."
In "The Palace of Love" (a book transcribed from His
series of satsangs on the "Asa Di Vars" - and from which the
above stanzas were taken), Sant Ajaib Singh Ji Maharaj (one
of Sant Kirpal Singh Ji's successors) points out:
"In the Golden Age, or Sat Yuga, Truth
was the means of liberation. In the Silver Age,
or Treta Yuga, performance of austerities was
the means of liberation. In the Copper Age, or
Dwapar Yuga, worship and outer rites and rituals
were means of liberation. But in this Iron age,
or Kali Yuga, the support of Naam is the only
means of liberation."
In other words, making pilgrimages to temples, joining
the right church, studying sacred texts, being a philosophy or
theology major - or a renowned religious scholar - the practice
of yogic postures, pranayam, vegetarianism, celibacy, even
extended periods of meditation, are absolutely worthless for
realizing the Lord if we are not also in communion with the
Word. All rites, rituals and practices can lift us up to a certain
extend. But they all stop at the mind.
Remember, the Universal Mind Power is the domain
of Kal, the lord of illusion and duality. Indeed, the Mind Power
(Kal or Brahmanda) and all of it's tributary gods and goddesses
(e.g. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Lakshmi, Parvati, Kali, Krishna,
Rama, Ganesha, etc.) are all part of Its creation. They are all
reflections of Its True Light, the result of It refracting off of
the mirror of Mind (Kal). In stanza 9 of the Jap Ji, Guru
Nanak says very clearly:
"By communion with the Word, one
can attain the powers of Shiva, Brahma and
Vishnu. By communion with the Word, one
can win esteem from all, irrespective of one's
past. By communion with the Word, one can
have yogic insight, with the mysteries of life
and self all revealed. By communion with the
Word, one can acquire the true import of the
Sastras, Smritis and Vedas. O Nanak, His
devotees live in perpetual ecstasy; for the Word
washes away all sin and sorrow."
In other words, why study books, philosophy and
ideas to learn about their Source, when, by communing with
the Word, you can study the Source directly and, in doing so,
have total awareness about all philosophies and ideas. By
communing with the Word (which we call the practice of Surat
Shabd Yoga) you can gain in an instant knowledge which you
might be able to acquire through a lifetime of book learning.
Over and over again, Nanak stresses the importance of
Naam. And he states very clearly that Its worship - i.e., the
union (yoga) of one's attention (surat) with the Word (Shabda
or Naam) - is the only means of attaining lasting liberation from
the wheel of birth and death.
"By practice of the Word, one rises
into universal consciousness and develops right
understanding. By practice of the Word, one
develops clairvoyance and transvision of the
whole creation. By practice of the Word, one
is freed from sorrow and suffering. By practice
of the Word, one shall not go to Yama (the
judge of the dead) after his death. O, great is
the Power of the Word, but few there be that
know it."
It doesn't matter what religion we are brought up in.
The Word is the Source of all faiths, and all faiths are a
reflection of It. As Kirpal Singh stated so beautifully, "God
made man, and man made religions."
This is the essence of what Nanak meant when He
stated so succinctly, "There is no Hindu. There is no
Musalman." All creeds, rites, rituals, outer practices and
observances are meaningless from the perspective of God-
consciousness. There is only God, Soul and Naam - Father,
Son, Holy Ghost - Creator, Creation and the Creative Power
which links them together.
By communing - by harmonizing our attention - with
the return flow of Naam, It will lift us up above physical,
emotional and mental consciousness, taking us home to our
Source. Who could ask for more?
For a 40 year time period - from His late 20's to mid-60's
- Nanak Sahib traveled throughout India, eventually making
His way to Afghanistan, Persia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia,
carrying the torch lit by Kabir and using it to illuminate
countless souls wherever He went. Although he was not
always welcomed everywhere He went, He had the gift of
turning adversaries into friends.
During a visit to Mecca, He was accosted for daring
to sleep with His feet pointed toward the Quaba, instead of
His head. His reply was something to the effect of, "Show me
any direction where God is not, and there I will point my feet."
In another instance, he was approaching a town which
already had a preponderance of sadhus. As He neared the town
gates, an emissary was sent with a tea cup filled to the brim
(which essentially meant that the town already had plenty of
holy men, thank you very much, and it didn't need another).
Nanak's response was to take a lotus petal and place it on top
of the tea - without spilling a drop.
"Those who have communed with
the Word, their toils shall end, and their
faces shall flame with glory. Not only shall
they find salvation, O Nanak, but many more
shall find freedom with them."
- Jap Ji (finale)
"The more that you give,
The more it will take.
Till that thin line beyond which
You really can't fake."
- Robert Hunter
"Kinpa" <tsha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b6570893-a4d3-40b6...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 2:23 am, "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote:
> Here's a little add-on, which connects back to Paul's time with this group
> line in DC in the 50's
> "In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a
> literal return of Jesus to earth....A thousand Christs sent to earth would
> not redeem its people unless they themselves become Christlike by
> purifying
> and expanding their individual consciousness to receive therein the second
> coming of the Christ Consciousness, as was manifested in Jesus....Contact
> with this Consciousness, experienced in the ever new joy of meditation,
> will
> be the real second coming of Christ - and it will take place right in the
> devotee's own consciousness."
> -Paramahansa
> Yogananda
>
> THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
> The Resurrection of the Christ Within You
> A revelatory commentary on the original teachings of Jesus
>
> Paramahansa
> Yoganandahttp://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/scoc_frameset-des.html
>
> Home page.http://www.yogananda-srf.org/
>
> Wiki History
>
> Paramahansa Yogananda (Bengali: ?????? ???????? P�romoh�ngsho Joganondo,
Etznab
>
> news:b6570893-a4d3-40b6...@15g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 6, 2:23 am, "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote:
>
> > Here's a little add-on, which connects back to Paul's time with this group
> > line in DC in the 50's
> > "In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a
> > literal return of Jesus to earth....A thousand Christs sent to earth would
> > not redeem its people unless they themselves become Christlike by
> > purifying
> > and expanding their individual consciousness to receive therein the second
> > coming of the Christ Consciousness, as was manifested in Jesus....Contact
> > with this Consciousness, experienced in the ever new joy of meditation,
> > will
> > be the real second coming of Christ - and it will take place right in the
> > devotee's own consciousness."
> > -Paramahansa
> > Yogananda
>
> > THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
> > The Resurrection of the Christ Within You
> > A revelatory commentary on the original teachings of Jesus
>
> > Paramahansa
> > Yoganandahttp://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/scoc_frameset-des.html
>
> > Home page.http://www.yogananda-srf.org/
>
> > Wiki History
>
Sean,
I read that post once before, but thanks for presenting
it once again.
This one part was most interesting to me.
***********************************************************
A couple of things which I initially found interesting
were the fact that Guru Nanak was known in his time
as the "torchbearer" of the Way of Naam (in the same
way that Eckists refer to Rebazar Tarzs as the "Torch-
bearer of Eck"), that many of the holy sites were called
"Golden Temples" and that the guardians of these temples
were called "Mahantas" (two significant words in the Eck-
ankar theology) Given my nearly two decades of tutelage
within the structure of Eckankar, I found the similarities
most fascinating, and had to know more.
***********************************************************
I remember Michael (or somebody) once mused about
whether a connection between Guru Nanak and Rebazar
Tarzs. However, I don't see a connection if Guru Nanak
died in 1539.
Rebazar Tarzs, accoring to Paul Twitchell, was born in
1461. The reference for Nanak I have gives a birthdate
of 1469.
Now I'm curious about the date when Rebazar Tarzs
was said to have "retired" to the Himalayas. Writing
about Rebazar Tarzs, Paul apparently illustrated:
"He stayed on earth for seventy-five years teaching
ECK, then he retired in the same body to the mount-
ainous vastness of the Himalayas."
Seventeen years from 1461 would be 1536.
I find that just a little bit curious. The death for Nanak
(1539) and "retirement" for Rebazar Tarzs (1536) is
apparently separated by only three years.
Did I do the math right?
If the two were born three years apart I would find that
even more curious, but apparently their births were 8
years apart.
It might be interesting to check the dates for Nanak &
see if they vary from one account to the next. I've seen
this is not uncommon for some of the older (especially
legendary) gurus.
If there was a connection between Nanak and Rebazar
Tarzs (like, for example, if Paul used Rebazar Tarzs as
a pseudo for Guru Nanak) that would be interesting to
me. However, if Nanak actually died (translated) then I
don't know how Nanak could amount to "living" Master
in subsequent years.
What is probably more interesting is if Sawan Singh
claimed connection to the lineage, or teachings, that
Guru Nanak gave. However, I believe the lineage for
Nanak's teachings ended with a book.
I believe it was 1708 when Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji
reportedly proclaimed the Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be
the last guru.
http://www.sikh.net/SIKHISM/Sikhism.htm
Here is something I read on a Nanak history link:
***********************************************************
There is but One God, His name is Truth, He is the
Creator, He fears none, he is without hate, He never
dies, He is beyond the cycle of births and death, He
is self illuminated, He is realized by the kindness of
the True Guru. He was True in the beginning, He was
True when the ages commenced and has ever been
True, He is also True now." (Japji)
These words are enshrined at the beginning of the
Sikh Holy Scriptures, the Guru Granth Sahib. Guru
Nanak did not believe in a Trinity of Gods, or the
belief that God can be born into human form.
http://santhakar.tripod.com/saints/bio-4.html
***********************************************************
If that were true, what it said in the last sentence,
I don't see how Nanak's teachings could be a root
for Sant Mat, Radha Soami, Eckankar, etc. where
it appears that (according to some) there is no dif-
ference between the "Living Master" and God. Not
unless the latter teachings were a corruption of the
former! However, going back further than Nanak I
find the belief that everyone is God.
In India, children are raised with the belief that all
person's are God. Recently I saw links that claim
this was the common belief for all world religions.
That everybody is God!
http://www.iawwai.com/EveryoneIsGod.htm
http://www.iawwai.com/TruthBehindReligion.htm
Someplace on that Web site it said something
about the reason people stopped calling themself
God had to do with someone (I think they were a
Muslim, Sufi, or Arab) that was tortured and killed
for entertaining that belief.
If one looks at moden dogma for three world religions,
IMO it doesn't look like everyone is God. Because the
Christians have Jesus, Islam has Allah, and Judaism
has Jehovah and the Messiah. However, going through
the scriptures of those religions evidence can be found
that everyone is God. I think this is what the author of
that Web site illustrated with his references. See it for
yourself.
If this is true. That everyone is God. Then has modern
religious dogma corrupted an ancient truth? Because,
even the writings of Paul Twitchell (do in some places)
suggest that everybody is God!
This is kinda interesting.
I'm done now :)
Etznab
Sean
"Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d1c5e1dd-c3fd-4d5c...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Sean,
***********************************************************
***********************************************************
==========
Etznab,
Just quickly, because as i said elsewhere, I just can't keep up with the
discussion s or thoeries anymore, unless new hard info becomes available.
So you think there's a n issue here because there is an 8 year difference in
birthdates back in the 1400's?
Etznab, really, are you pulling my leg here? I am not a historian by any
means, but that means nothing imho, on eway or the other.
Also, if Paul twitchell gave a year as 1492 for when Columbus discovered
America, I would double check it. :)
No criticism of the man at all, he was a busy guy and maybe not the
photographic memory some people think he is. I wouldn't use his recall of
histiory, nor always trust the particular sources paul may have being
relying upon from the 20's thru to the 60's.
I could easily suggest, as an example only, that Paul actually meant Guru
Nanak initially way back in 1938, when he recorded his year of birth as
1461.
In 2009 history agrees on a later year of 1469 based on documents discovered
in 1975.
Sometime between 1938 and 1964 Paul changed his records to Rebazar Tarz
instead.
This is a potential theory that also fits the missing details within the
known history.
-- ok you also say ::
=====
Now I'm curious about the date when Rebazar Tarzs
was said to have "retired" to the Himalayas. Writing
about Rebazar Tarzs, Paul apparently illustrated:
"He stayed on earth for seventy-five years teaching
ECK, then he retired in the same body to the mount-
ainous vastness of the Himalayas."
Seventeen years from 1461 would be 1536.
I find that just a little bit curious. The death for Nanak
(1539) and "retirement" for Rebazar Tarzs (1536) is
apparently separated by only three years.
Did I do the math right?
=====
YES, you did do the math right.
But the following is just fishing for flotsam floating past ... ;-) teasing
only,
"" If the two were born three years apart I would find that
even more curious, but apparently their births were 8
years apart.
It might be interesting to check the dates for Nanak &
see if they vary from one account to the next."
Etznab, of course they vary ..... and eventually one becoems the accepted
date.
You said somewhere else that harold puts Paul's DOB in 1908 ... how come?
Doug has pretty well nailed at 1909 I thought. Oh well .....
OK, so all I am saying here is that it is important that supposed "facts" do
not take on a life of their own and block the obvious. A variance of years
500 years ago is in most occasions irrelvant and a misdirection. Common
sense says it is to be expected .. therefore to even rely on a anexact
confirmation of a date/year is in itself not necessarily a confirmation but
may be a repeated error.
Such "hard evidences" or facts cannot be relied upon with other more
compelling evidence that can stand alone. things have to be able to STAND
ALONE and still be valid to be true ... as well as connected with other
facts/evidence.
And again one needs to be mindlful of the universal inner spiritual
lineage/s and the outer players ............... irresepctive of the labels
things may be the same or they may even be different with the same "word"
designation being used. I;'m sure you know this, but anyway.
There is NO LAW that says Rebazar tarz could have not co-existed on earth at
the same time that Guru Nanak was and that they never crossed paths ... or
rather any crossing of paths was never recorded as Nanak had buttered Yak
tea with Rebazar Tarz on October 22nd 1492 to celebrate there joint mission
in guiding those nervous Eurpoeans across a simple ocean.
<smile>
Lot's of ways to see it ..... something more a year being close or too far
apart is meaningless my friend .. at least in this context it is.
It took 35 years after Paul T died to have a reliable and credible DOB for
him that *stacks up*
and still even THAT could be wrong and he was born on easter 1901 but kept
his youthful appearance. ;-)
So what is most important needs to not be forgotten when down the Historical
Rabbit Warren <vbg>
Only 100% total trust and reliance on the Inner Master will get you there
... one has to keep listening or may miss the signs of the times. I think
you'll be very busy with this subject next year, so have a break if you can
maybe get some sunshine trees fresh air and beaches over xmas mate!
cheers sean
Sean
had connections inner or outer with Guru Nanak, or any others , I'm saying
keep an open mind and let the info pass by without getting to attahced to
any particualr.
=====================
EG
In reverence to his personality, teachings and oeuvre, he is a
Mahapurusha---'Great Man'.==Eka Sarana==??????
---
combined the words go Ekasarana
----
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva (1449-1568) = 120 years of age
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
--------------------------------
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva (1449-1568) , saint-scholar, playwright,
social-religious reformer, is a colossal figure in the cultural and
religious history of Assam, India. He is credited with providing a thread of
unity to Assam straddling two major kingdoms (Ahom and Koch kingdoms),
building on past literary activities to provide the bedrock of Assamese
culture, and creating a religion that gave shape to a set of new values and
social synthesis.
Main article: Mahapuruxiya dharma
Sankaradeva used the form of Krishna to preach
devotion to a single God (eka sarana),
who can be worshiped solely by uttering His various names (naam).
In contrast to other bhakti forms, eka sarana follows the dasya attitude (a
slave to God).
Moreover, unlike the 'Gaudiya Vaishnavism' of Bengal, Radha is not worshiped
along with Krishna. In uttering the name of God, Hari, Rama, Narayana and
Krishna are most often used.
Sankaradeva himself and the religion in general are particularly
antagonistic to saktism which was strongly prevalent in Assam at the time.
This probably explains the non-use of Radha as an icon.
A non-brahmin, Srimanta Sankaradeva started a system of initiation (saran
lowa) into his religion.
He caused a huge Social revolution by fighting against anti-social elements
like casteism prevailing at that time.
He initiated people of all castes and religions, including Muslims.
After initiation, the devotee is expected to adhere to the religious tenets
of eka sarana. Failure to adhere to these tenets led to ex-communication in
certain cases.
The people who practice his religion are called variously as Mahapurushia,
Sarania or Sankari.
NOTE please
***********************************************
His translation of the Bhagavata is actually a transcreation, because he
translates not just the words but the idiom and the physiognomy too.
************************************************
He has adapted the original text to the LOCAL LAND And PEOPLE and most
importantly for the purpose of bhakti.
Portions of the original were left out or elaborated where appropriate.
For example, he suppressed the portions that revile the lowers castes of
sudra and kaivartas, and extols them elsewhere.
[ research Harold's criticisms of Paul about his criticism of catholicism,
and so it was deleted from LTG III, as not appropriate. ]
It is possible the death of his wife increased his spiritual inclination as
his mind began to focus, more than ever before, on the transcendental.
When his daughter turned nine, he married her off to Hari, handed over the
Shiromaniship to his grand uncles and left for a pilgrimage (a religious
tour rather) (c1482).
[ 10 years before Columbus voyage to the Americas ]
At this point of time, he was thirty two. The pilgrimage took him to Puri,
Mathura, Dwaraka, Vrindavan, Gaya, Rameswaram, Ayodhya, Sitakunda and almost
all the other major seats of the Vaishnavite religion in India.
At Badrikashrama, he composed his first bargeet---mana meri ram charanahi
lagu---in Brajavali. He returned home to Ali-pukhuri after 12 years (his
family had moved back from Bordowa in his absence).
[ 2 years after Columbus ]
During his pilgrimage, he witnessed the Bhakti movement that was in full
bloom in India at that time.
The Bhakti movement began to spread to the North during the late medieval
ages when North India was under Muslim domination. There was no grouping of
the mystics into Shaiva and Vaishnava devotees as in the South. The movement
was spontaneous and the various mystics had their own version of devotional
expression. Unlike in the South, where devotion was centered on both Shiva
and Vishnu (in all his forms), the Northern devotional movement was more or
less centered on Rama and Krishna, both of whom were incarnations of Vishnu.
It was initially considered unorthodox, as it rebelled against caste
distinctions and made disregarded Brahmanic rituals, which according to
Bhakti saints were not necessary for salvation. In the course of time
however, owing to its immense popularity among the masses (and even royal
patronage) it became 'orthodox' and continues to be one of the most
important modes of religious expression in modern India.
In the period between the 14-17th centuries, a great bhakti movement swept
through Central and Northern India, initiated by a loosely associated group
of teachers or sants. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Vallabha, Surdas, Meera
Bai,Kabir, Tulsidas, Ravidas, Namdeo, Tukaram and other mystics spearheaded
the Bhakti movement in the North. [ more below about Bhakti ]
Their teachings were that people could cast aside the heavy burdens of
ritual and caste and the subtle complexities of philosophy and simply
express their overwhelming love for God. This period was also characterized
by a spate of devotional literature in vernacular prose and poetry in the
ethnic languages of the various Indian states or provinces.
Srimanta Sankaradeva made arrangements with Madhavadeva and Thakur Ata and
gave them various instructions at Patbausi and left the place for the last
time.
He set up his home at Bheladonga in Kochbehar. During his stay at Kochbehar,
Naranarayana expressed his wish to be initiated. Sankaradeva was reluctant
to convert a king and declined to do so.
According to one of the biographers (Ramcharan Thakur), a painful boil-a
visha phohara-had appeared in some part of his body and this led to the
passing away of the Saint. According to other accounts (Guru Charit Katha et
al), Naranarayan's adamance that he be initiated into the new religion led
the saint to surrender his life to the Lord, by way of meditative communion.
Thus, in 1568, after leading a most eventful life dedicated to enlighten
humanity; the Mahapurusha passed away - within six months of his stay at
Bheladonga - at the remarkable age of 120 years.
References
An Unsung Colossus: An Introduction to the Life and Works of Sankaradeva,
Sivanath Barman, Guwahati 1999.
[ The First of the 5th root race Aryan ECK masters name was ... RAMA -- The
first world saviour who brought the WORD of Eck into India, and later to the
Aryans, the firth root race, he was the founder of the katsupari Monsatery
in Tibet. eckankar dioctionary ]
-----------------
Jesus taught His disciples Bhakti Yoga; which means to become totally
devoted to Him. To pray to Him. To think about Him. To have a "personal
relationship" with Him. Praying. Praise. Music. Song. Holding one's hands in
the air. This is all part of Bhakti Yoga.
Most Evangelical Christians already practice Bahkti Yoga; although they
simply call it "worship" and "having a personal relationship with Jesus".
Bhakti Yoga is the Path of Salvation for Spiritual Souls. Krishna taught the
same things to His disciples. For Spiritual Souls, Bhakti Yoga is the "Way"
to God. But for Mystical Souls, there is another Path. It is called Shabd
Yoga.
Shabd Yoga means "Sound-Current Union", or "Union with the Divine
Sound-Current". It means divine union with the Divine Word
ECKANKAR teaches that the COSMOS is divided into 11 Planes, or Dimensions.
This was taught was many centuries, and popularized in North America by Paul
Twitchell, who was an ECK Master.
Only in the last 10 or 15 years have physicists concluded that the COSMOS
has 11 Dimensions; just as ECK teachers have been teaching for many
thousands of years! This is no coincidence.
Each of the Planes has a different sound that can be heard by
Soul-Travelers. This is a frequency. If you can "tune in" to the frequency,
then you can enter that Dimension.
The ultimate goal of the Eckist is to "liberate" His Soul by "uniting" with
the Sound-Current (Shabd) of GOD. This is done by learning various
techniquesthat ECKANKAR teaches its Chelas ("students").
http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/ek0/
=========================
SURAT SHABD YOGA -
meeting of GURU NANAK dev ji with yogis at achal sahib near batala (
gurdaspur ) from siddh gosht ( guru granth sahib ji )
yogis asked various questions from guru nanak dev ji .
one question
kavan guru ji ka tu chela ?
Who is your guru? Whose disciple are you?
guru nanak dev ji replied
shabd guru ,surat dhun cheela
ie my guru is shabd (true words ),and my surat ( consciousness )follows it
listening shabd is also described as anahad naad ( unstruck melody ) ,
ajappa jaap .
below is an article which touched your all questions on this forum
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
AJAPA JAAP (continuos repetition of Naam/ Waheguru) is the spiritual
condition of a person when the Simran (repitition of Waheguru) goes on an
auto pilot mode in your Surat (mind) and in your Hirdey (heart) as explained
below. It means that Simran becomes a round the clock thing inside you,
Simran doesn't stop at any moment, it carries on and such a condition comes
with Gurkirpa (God/ the guru's blessing) and after a lot of Bhagti
Kamai(meditation) or can also be attained with the Kirpa (blessings) of a
Puran Braham Gyani(ascended master). The experiences of bliss follow a path
such as this:
1. Jaap (repetition) with Tounge - Rasna - this happens in Dharam Khand
2. Jaap with the breathing - with Swaas - this happens in Gyan Khand and
Saram Khand
3. Then Naam (waheguru) goes into your mind - Surat, in your thinking, then
it becomes
Simran from Jaap - this is a very good stage - this happens in Saram Khand
and
Karam Khand.
4. The next stage is when Simran goes into Hirdey - this one is even much
higher stage
when Naam goes into Hirdey - this is where it goes on an automatic mode,
this is
where the real bhagti(meditation) starts.
5. The next stage is when Simran travels to the Nabhi, when Nabhi
Kamal(lotus)blossoms - Karam Khand
6. The next Stage is when Simran goes into Kundlini - Mooladhaar Chakkar and
spine -
Karam Khand
7. The next stage is when Simran travels through the spine to the brain, and
back to Surat where it completes the cycle.
This is what the real Mala (rosary) of Naam (meditation) is. When this
happens then the Gyan Netter and Dassam Duaar (10th Gate) open s and you
form a permanent connection with Akal Purakh (God), you start to receive
divine knowledge - "Braham Gyan". This happens in Sach Khand. Enjoyment -
Anand in Smadhi and Sun Smadhi is beyond description. That is why the
enlightened souls go into v ery deep meditation some time for days together.
You experience a lot of things during your Smadhi and Sun Smadhi, see a lot
of things, meet a lot of Saints, Gurus, see Param Jyot, conversation with
the Sants and Akal Purakh , it is beyond description wh at happens and
through what you go when you go into deep meditation. This is the stage when
all the doors - Bajjar Kapaat are opened and there is a continuous flow of
Amrit, body is always full of Amrit.
8. The Simran in Smadhi and Sun Smadhi continues until NIRGUN AND SARGUN
becomes one, at this point Simran goes into rom-rom - every bit of your body
does
Naam Simran, your Suksham Dehi becomes as pure as gold, your entire body is
filled
with Naam Amrit all the time. You become Braham Leen, and reach Atal
Awastha.
These stages are beyond description. Sat Chit Anand Ghar Hamare - Gurmukh
Rom
Rom Har Dhyae - Nirgun Sargun Nirankaar Sun Smadhi Aap, Apan Kia Nanka Apan
Hi Fir Jaap and so on. One lives in Pu ran Parkash all the time and listens
to Ilahi
Kirtan(heavenly Kirtan/singing)- Anhad Naad Dhunis (heavenly music) all the
time. It
is just incredible experience. This is when one becomes Sat Ram Dass and is
directed
by the Almighty to serve humanity in h umbleness. And this is what we all
wish to
achieve being fortunate enough to move on the Bhagti Marg (spiritual path).
If you do Jaap with Rasna your Rasna will become pavitter - pious, by doing
jaap in along breathing - swass your swass will become pious - pavitter, by
doing Simran in mind-Surat-Chit- mind will become pious - pavitter (pure),
and that is what you need t o do to make your mind pious - pavitter, that is
how you will have control on your mind - MAN JEETE JAG JEET (win teh mind
and you win the world) - MAN TU JYOT SAROOP HAI and you will be able to rise
above Panj Doots - KAAM, KRODH, LOBH, MOH, AHANKAAR AN D ALSO ASA, TRISHNA,
MANSHA, NINDYA, CHUGLI, BAKHILI, RAJ, JOBAN, DHAN, MAAL, ROOP, RAS, GANDH,
THESE THUGS - MENTAL SICKNESSES, and when Simran goes in to Hirdey - and
Simran will go to Hirdey by itself with Gurkirpa (guru's blessings) only,
and so in C hit, Hirdey will become pavitter - pious and a pious Hirdey will
become Mahaparupkari and Dana Dina, NIRBHAO, NIRVAIR and so on, it will
start to absorb all the vital qualities of Akal Purakh (god) and will become
a Puran Sant Hirda, and will achieve JIV AN MUKTI.
source: http://amritnaam.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/24/
from
http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1222
Sean
I am wondering what was this "open" religion in the 15th century ???
---------------------
ECK Masters noted in some Eckankar publication, extant near 15 th Century
Rebezar Tarzs, LEM, 1461 - 1555 a.d.
Kabir, Eck Master, (also Kabira) (1440-1518)
Hindu poet-mystic, brought teaching out into
open. Bhaki movement
---------
other 1400's Contemporaies include
Guru Nanak - Muslim Hindu and founder of Sikhism
Guru Nanak Dev Ji (15 April 1469 -22 September 1539)
Bhaki movement and chap called
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva (1449-1568 AD
===
other poeple and events
a..
b.. Renaissance affects philosophy, science and art.
c.. Age of Discovery begins.
d.. Rise of Modern English language from Middle English
Discovery of the Americas by Christopher Columbus 1492
Johannes Gutenberg invents the printing press in Europe (c. 1455).
Public banks
Leonardo da Vinci, (1452-1519), Italian polymath, scientist, mathematician,
engineer, inventor, anatomist, painter, sculptor, architect,botanist,
musician and writer.
Abu Sa'id al-Afif, a Samaritan physician.
Constantine XI, Last Byzantine Emperor (1404-1453)
a.. Stephen III of Moldavia, also known as Stephen the Great, ruler of
Moldavia, national hero of Romanians for long resistance to the Ottomans
(1437-1504)
b.. Richard III of England, last English King of the House of York, last
of the House of Plantagenet (1452-1485).
c.. Mir Chakar Khan Rind (1468-1565), a Baloch king.
d.. Vlad III Dracula, Prince of Wallachia who led the defense of his
territory against the expanding Ottoman Empire(1431-1476).
e.. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus (1491 - 1556).
f.. Michel Nostradamus, French astrologer and doctor, author of Les
Propheties, a book of world prophecies (1503 - 1566)
John Calvin, theologian, and reformer. Founder of Calvinism (1509 - 1564).
Michelangelo Buonarroti, Italian painter and sculptor (1475 - 1564).
Raphael, Italian painter, (1483 - 1520)
Hern�n Cort�s, Spanish Conquistador (1485 - 1547
a.. Vasco da Gama, Portuguese navigator. The first one to sail around the
Cape of Good Hope (c. 1469 - 1524).
b.. Juan Ponce de Le�n (c. 1460 - 1521) - Spanish explorer. He explored
Florida while attempting to locate a Fountain of Youth.
c.. Ferdinand Magellan, Portuguese navigator who sailed around the world
(1480 - 1521).
Lot's occuring from 1450 thru 1550 period
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4af3cf00$0$3253$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Etznab
Sean,
I'm really enjoying reading your posts. Especially this one!
What it had to say about Nanak and his teachings.
Etznab
Sean
Sean,
Etznab
===================
Hey that's great!
This'll be where someone butts in and says oh no no no, Nanaks teaching is
not the same or from the same source, Paul's is different, Eckankar is
different than Ek Onkar entirely different. Nanak wasn't an ECK master
accoridng to the 'doctrine' or written works.
But what do you do with Paul's own words [ or claimed to be I can't check
the material myself] where paul is saying yeah what I am teaching is the
same universal teaching as Nanak and Ek Onkar, but I have added to this too,
changed the basic system to suit the west and I know how to work with IT.
[ sic my interpretation of PT's thoughts in late 60's I think ] I have the
quote somewhere.
Oh btw found a quote credited to Paul T in 1962 writing/speaking about "the
mahanta" in a publication or an interview or talk type of thing - but it was
original and not something re-published by Eckankar later. Some where I have
it.
This is what I mean, it's all too much .. too much stuff too many jigsaw
pieces to line up. personally I put it down to my bad karma, really .. at
times this whole obnubilated history thing is like being sent to a salt mine
in Siberia for re-education. :)
maybe one day could you please check etymology for any
tibetan/hindi/sanscrit connections
Sarana - Saran - Suranah - surana - sura tana
sana tana - Sanatana - Santaran - Santarana -
reb - rabb - reba -
[ eg used as a Mister. or Sir or Rabbi or teacher - wise man .. an
honourific title ??? ]
Azar [ azar ] - Azar tarz - azah tarz - aza tarz - tah
[ tibetan or nth east Old India place in pre-islamic time - near bhutan and
tibet just north of that. ]
il-al or maybe it was il-la
[ can't find it now .. but it's an origin word for Allah - also similar to
meaning of ek = 1, and oneness , all, only way. ??? ]
cheers sean
Etznab
I think I'm about done :) :) :)
Like, totally overwhelmed by all the recent data. Too,
bad that's not my name (Data) or I'd figured it all out
by now.
Besides that, I think there is something good on the
History Channel tonight. Something about how the
universe was made.
Think I'll have dinner and a movie. And relax.
Etznab
Sean
Think I'll have dinner and a movie. And relax.
Etznab
------
Hi, I know exactly what you mean ... :)
Will do the same
Sean
> maybe one day could you please check etymology for any
> tibetan/hindi/sanscrit connections
>
> Sarana - Saran - Suranah - surana - sura tana
>
> sana tana - Sanatana - Santaran - Santarana -
>
> reb - rabb - reba -
> [ eg used as a Mister. or Sir or Rabbi or teacher - wise man .. an
> honourific title ??? ]
>
> Azar [ azar ] - Azar tarz - azah tarz - aza tarz - tah
> [ tibetan or nth east Old India place in pre-islamic time - near bhutan
> and
> tibet just north of that. ]
>
> il-al or maybe it was il-la
> [ can't find it now .. but it's an origin word for Allah - also similar to
> meaning of ek = 1, and oneness , all, only way. ??? ]
>
> cheers sean
I think I'm about done :) :) :)
================
but can i still clarify this one with you ...
and listens to Ilahi Kirtan (heavenly Kirtan/singing)-
Ilahi in relation to Allahu ?? or similar? this i wonder about .... only
lightly and in no rush. maybe a phurphy [ dead end ]
Etznab
Sean,
I don't believe I ever saw that word before.
Wait a minute. It shows up in one place
in my compiled dictionary database:
shabd - "Definitions: Word or Sound; spiritual sound; audible
life stream; sound current. The creative power, the source of
all creation, which manifests as sound and light in the spiritual
regions. It is the Word or Logos of the Bible; Kalma, Isme-i-Asm,
Bang-i-Asmani, or Kalma-Ilahi of the Koran; the Nad of the Vedas;
Nam, Ram Nam, Gurbani, Bani, and Dhun of the Adi Granth; the
Tao of the Chinese; Vadan and the Saut-i-Surmad of the Sufis.
The Zoroastrians call it Shraosha, and it is known by many other
names. The secret of hearing the Shabd within oneself can be
imparted only by a true Master (Satguru)
[Julian Johnson, The Path Of The Masters, 16th printing, 1997,
p. 465].
This is the entry I have for kalma:
kalma - "Definitions: A Koranic term that stands for Word in the
Bible, Nad in the Hindu scriptures and Naam as termed by the
Masters, all of which denote the Audible Life Stream pulsating
in the entire creation, visible and invisible."
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm
I don't have time to research that word "llahi" right now.Let me
know if you find any alternate spellings. I'm probably about as
interested as you.
Etznab
Etznab
Sean,
I searched "llahi" at the Inayat Khan site.
It came up in four places.
This page is probably the most interesting:
la ilaha illa-llah - Arabic lā ilāha illā Allāh: The four
individual words in the phrase lā ilāha ill allāh have
the following meanings: lā = no, not, none, neither;
ilāha = a god, deity, object of worship; illā = but,
except; allāh = Allāh. Typical translations include:
There is no god but Allāh; There is nothing to wor-
ship or adore except Allāh. This phrase is often
called tahlīl (acclaim, cry out with with joy), and is
used in the Qur'an in sūrah Muhammad (47:19).
(also see the tahlil web page)
http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/mv_glossary.htm
I also saw the word spelled "llahu", I think.
Gotta go for now, but I'd be interested in the "ll"
part and what is the literal meaning there. Like,
what did it mean when two L's were placed next
to one another? Did it have any other, earlier
meaning besides "God"?
Etznab
Sean
Sean,
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm
Etznab
------
Mate, that's enough it was perfect ... well done and thx
Kalma-Ilahi of the Koran, the Nad of the Vedas, Bani and Dhun of the Adi
Granth, Saut-i-Surmad of the Sufis, Shraosha of the Zoroastrians, Word or
Logos of the Bible, the Tao of the Chinese, and the ECK of Eckankar.
[ I also saw the word spelled "llahu" ],
well I have heard the word A-llahu, being Allahu, used as well .... these
entymologies are not accidents.
and the arabic word * ilaha * means god, and illa-llah means "but Allah", a
name for god, or a no-name for the ONE God depending on how one looks at it.
"There is no god but Allah; There is nothing to worship or adore except
Allah."
OK so simply this is another Reflection or Flowering of the the exact same
approach of the Bhakti movement of Hindu India. The same a Jesus's and St
Paul's teachings moving away from Karmic law towards the Law of Love.
The same as Shams and Rumis devotion and and expressions of Love for
God-Allah-the Supreme One.
The same as Guru Nanak's expressions about Ek Onkar, the One God ..... and
all the others mentioned recently and forever.
============
and man you are so clever -- "I searched "llahi" at the Inayat Khan site."
LOL that is way neat! LOL
This btw is the same Inayat Khan that Paul mentions by name in one of his
"books" or "talks".
And did you know that he was IN America for a long time from 1910, including
teaching publicly giving talks etc ..... at the exact same time that Paul T
indivicated that his father was seeing an Indian L & S Master. How odd ....
;-))
OK thanks brilliant ..... relax though , I do need a break too.
Etznab
>
> It came up in four places.
>
> This page is probably the most interesting:
>
> la ilaha illa-llah - Arabic lā ilāha illā Allāh: The four
> individual words in the phrase lā ilāha ill allāh have
> the following meanings: lā = no, not, none, neither;
> ilāha = a god, deity, object of worship; illā = but,
> except; allāh = Allāh. Typical translations include:
> There is no god but Allāh; There is nothing to wor-
> ship or adore except Allāh. This phrase is often
> called tahlīl (acclaim, cry out with with joy), and is
> used in the Qur'an in sūrah Muhammad (47:19).
> (also see the tahlil web page)
>
> http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/mv_glossary.htm
>
> I also saw the word spelled "llahu", I think.
>
> Gotta go for now, but I'd be interested in the "ll"
> part and what is the literal meaning there. Like,
> what did it mean when two L's were placed next
> to one another? Did it have any other, earlier
> meaning besides "God"?
>
> Etznab
Sean,
OK. So I spent some time researching it. You got
me in my weak spot :) Researching word history
is a favorite hobby of mine.
There was reference to a link in that last post, but
it wasn't highlighted (the one about "tahlil")
This page is pretty good, IMO, and I found it real
interesting!
http://wahiduddin.net/words/tahlil.htm
Scroll down to the definitions for lâ ilâha illâ allh
and look at the last one.
... there is nothing to worship or adore other than
Allâh...
tr by wahiduddin
http://wahiduddin.net/words/tahlil.htm
It was interesting when the sentence was broken
down how it attributed a section to "God" and a
section to "Allah".
The word you asked about - "llahi" probably has
to do with the concept of "God", or "deity", etc.
However, this might also suggest "worship" and
"adoration" - it seems (to me).
It was interesting to see that latter definition. It's
one I might have guessed myself, based on the
research I did just before coming across it.
Although the page goes on to explain the "u" in
"Allahu", I also found it interesting to search the
Inayat Khan sight for the word "llahu".
In one place it had:
"llahu = unto Him, with Him"
http://wahiduddin.net/quran/ikhlas.htm
This is most interesting, IMO, because it tells
something about the letter "L". I'm assuming
the "hu" part there = "him".
The Hebrew / Aramaic letter "L" was believed
connected with an "ox goad".
A compilation from my dictionary for "L" includes:
"[....] General meanings attributed to L include:
direction, goal, purpose, for, to, and toward. The
letter L representing the yoke, is used as a prefix
to words meaning 'to' or 'toward,' as the oxen in
the yoke move toward the goal."
I don't know exactly what the "L" meant when the
words containing it were first coined. However, the
letters "L" were the most interesting to me.
There are probably dozens of ways to interpret the
words "llahi", "llahu", and "Allahu". IMO. I would
really like to know origins for the spellings and the
meanings given to them. What they grew out of.
However, this is probably the hardest and the most
time-consuming part, though. Not many people go
that far, IMO, because it's easier to guess & come
up short of the whole truth.
Etznab
Etznab
Sean,
Sorry about that. I'm gonna (try) and relax now.
Man, they got some weird stuff on the History
Channel. Talking about apocalypse and Satan,
etc. Then, after that, there's gonna be a show
about 2012. A prelude to the upcoming movie.
It's all Doomsday stuff, I think.
Wow, I can see it now, these are gonna be a
LONG two years leading up to 2012.
OK. Relax, I will :)
Etznab
Sean
>
>
> [ I also saw the word spelled "llahu" ],
>
> well I have heard the word A-llahu, being Allahu, used as well .... these
> entymologies are not accidents.
>
I meant to add
"so that's excellent, my hunch is sort of ok and on the money here by the
sounds of it. "
> and the arabic word * ilaha * means god, and illa-llah means "but Allah",
> a name for god, or a no-name for the ONE God depending on how one looks at
> it.
>
> "There is no god but Allah; There is nothing to worship or adore except
> Allah."
>
> OK so simply this is another Reflection or Flowering of the the exact same
> approach of the Bhakti movement of Hindu India. The same a Jesus's and St
> Paul's teachings moving away from Karmic law towards the Law of Love.
>
> The same as Shams and Rumis devotion and and expressions of Love for
> God-Allah-the Supreme One.
>
> The same as Guru Nanak's expressions about Ek Onkar, the One God ..... and
> all the others mentioned recently and forever.
The other thing this tells me is that there is a BIG connection between
Mohammed, and his expereinces and teachings as the many who are spoken about
above, and of course by Paul in his studies and teachings about ECKANKAR.
Let's see now the following Teachers/Travellers all pretty well said the
same thing about being tolerant of each others religions and to accept the
existence of all paths - Kabir, Nanak, Shams Tabriz, Rama, Charan Singh,
Sawan singh, Paul Twitchell, Gautama Buddha, Mahapurusha Srimanta
Sankaradeva ( Eka Sarana ), Rebazar Tarz, Sudar Singh, Mahavata Babaji,
Yogananda, The Tibetan, Theosophy, Edgar Cayce, Sri Yukteswar , both
Krishnamurti's, Lahiri Mahasaya, Ramananda, Pipa, Ravidas, Sukhananda, and
Tulsidas, Harold Klemp, and J�m Niz�mudd�n, Mevlana Jal�ludd�n Muhammad
Roomi, along with Mohammed Abu Hasana, Said Abu Hashim Mudani, Abu Ishaq
Shami, Gharib Nawaz, Irim Mushid Hazrat Inayat Khan, Fubbi Quantz, Gopal
Das, Rama Nuri, Lai Tsi, Gopal Das and all the Rulers in Paul's Tiger Fang
too that all religions come *out of * basically the same source the spupreme
being by the Word, or Naam, or ECK whatever you want to call it, and that by
and all despite this religion usually ends up being not very much like what
actually started it ... the power/force or enertia dies down over time
....... and so it flowers somewhere else where the soil is not as rocky.
Nevertheless they are all part of the oneness of this here creation, and as
such all people are to be respected irrespective of their religion or
beliefs, as the doorway to true inner teachings is not the thing of Itself,
but only a finger pointing to the Moon .....
I think all the above have said at some time not to condemn a religion, it's
teachings, or it's followers across the board ..............................
side-bar --
>> While there is disagreement as to the date of Tulsi's birth, his death is
>> generally agreed to have occurred in 1623.
>>
>> The traditionally accepted date of his birth is 1503, which would mean
>> that he lived for 120 years. This is logical from the point of view of
>> his hagiographers, because the full life span of a sinless human being is
>> believed to be 120 years.
well, Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva, who incidentally started a system
of initiation (saran lowa) into his religion Eka Sarana or Mahapuruxiya
Dharma.
also lived to be 120 years from 1461 to 1581
He initiated people of all castes and religions, including Muslims. eka
sarana follows the dasya attitude (a slave to God). -- reflections of Rumi
the Sufi.
> This btw is the same Inayat Khan that Paul mentions by name in one of his
> "books" or "talks".
>
Oh actually, Paul mentions him at least 3 times from memory, but please
don;t ask me where except he does in LTG 3 for sure, and I have seen other
quotes by paul.
cheers
Sean
> individual words in the phrase la ilaha ill allah have
> the following meanings: la = no, not, none, neither;
> ilaha = a god, deity, object of worship; illa = but,
> except; allah = Allah. Typical translations include:
> There is no god but Allah; There is nothing to wor-
> ship or adore except Allah. This phrase is often
> called tahlil (acclaim, cry out with with joy), and is
> used in the Qur'an in surah Muhammad (47:19).
> (also see the tahlil web page)
>
> http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/mv_glossary.htm
>
> I also saw the word spelled "llahu", I think.
>
> Gotta go for now, but I'd be interested in the "ll"
> part and what is the literal meaning there. Like,
> what did it mean when two L's were placed next
> to one another? Did it have any other, earlier
> meaning besides "God"?
>
> Etznab
Sean,
OK. So I spent some time researching it. You got
me in my weak spot :) Researching word history
is a favorite hobby of mine.
There was reference to a link in that last post, but
it wasn't highlighted (the one about "tahlil")
This page is pretty good, IMO, and I found it real
interesting!
http://wahiduddin.net/words/tahlil.htm
Scroll down to the definitions for l� il�ha ill� allh
and look at the last one.
... there is nothing to worship or adore other than
All�h...
tr by wahiduddin
http://wahiduddin.net/words/tahlil.htm
http://wahiduddin.net/quran/ikhlas.htm
Etznab
===========
OK yes I can see what you mean .... what you have already said is heaps
enough to satisfy my curiosity <smile>
good stuff . sean :)
Etznab
> "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote in message
Sean,
Can you post the link to that again? Maybe I misread it.
Is this talking about the same person below?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
Etznab
Sean
>
> cheers
"well, Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva, who incidentally
started a system of initiation (saran lowa) into his religion Eka
Sarana or Mahapuruxiya Dharma. also lived to be 120 years
from 1461 to 1581"
Sean,
Can you post the link to that again? Maybe I misread it.
Is this talking about the same person below?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
Etznab
===========================
OOOOPS -- yes
Yes ..
Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva[1] (1449-1568) (Assamese: ???????? ????????
???????? M�hapurux Srim�nt� X�nk�rdev), saint-scholar, playwright,
social-religious reformer, is a colossal figure in the cultural and
religious history of Assam, India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
and mmm error on the year? 1449 vs 1461 ... = 12 years over 550 years ago
now.
In the Hindu calendars 1460 =
- Vikram Samvat 1515 - 1516
- Shaka Samvat 1382 - 1383
- Kali Yuga 4561 - 4562
Now did i see that 1461 or do it myself? I don't know yet ..
Please note there is only ever a c.1449, meaning *circa*
Like Paul, there is no birth certificate ... ;-)
eg
Kabir born circa 1440-1518 was raised by childless weavers named Niru and
Nimma (it is disputed whether they were Muslim or Hindu), who found him near
Lahara Tara Lake, adjacent to the holy city of Varanasi.[3] But his birth is
surrounded by legends. The most popular belief is that being the supreme
power, he appeared in form of a baby. He was never "born" as such.
again no birth certificate? Is perhaps Kabir one of many incarnations and
appearances of one Fubbi Quantz? -- but that's a side line issue --
OK Guru Nanak Dev was born on 15th April 1469 -- seems one of the most
accurate dates so far [ but not necessarily correct, we cannnot know 100% ]
Srimanta Sankardeva (1449-1568)
The religion he started (Eka Sarana Hari Naam Dharma)
was part of the Bhakti movement then raging in India, and he inspired bhakti
in Assam just as Ramananda, Kabir, Basava and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu inspired
it elsewhere.
When his daughter turned nine, he married her off to Hari, handed over the
Shiromaniship to his grand uncles and left for a pilgrimage (a religious
tour rather) (c1482). At this point of time, he was 32. The pilgrimage took
him to Puri, Mathura, Dwaraka, Vrindavan, Gaya, Rameswaram, Ayodhya,
Sitakunda and almost all the other major seats of the Vaishnavite religion
in India.
== this is the main issue IMO, not his year of birth ==
his student was
Madhavadeva (1489-1596) is the chief disciple and apostolic successor of
Sankaradeva. He was a saint, composer, poet, playwright, scholar, theologian
and above all a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He was a religious reformer
and Assam Vaisnavism owes a great deal to his organizing ability, foresight
and exemplary conduct.
If Sankara revealed the secret of bhakti,the religion of love, it is Madhava
who made it public.
Nam Ghosa - The Book of the Names Divine
Nam Ghosa appears to be the last work of Madhavadeva, written about
1568-1596. It is said that Sankaradeva asked Madhavadeva to write a work
that would be sweet as the plum but hard as the seed within it. This is the
most perfect description of the Nama Ghosa which is such excellent poetry
and at the same time such nice exposition of the philosophy of Vaisnavism as
preached by Sankaradeva. Although the truths of this philosophy are
scattered all through the Kirttana, Dasama and other works of Sankaradeva,
the Nam Ghosa brings it into proper perspective and supplies a panoramic
view of it within the range of one thousand (and one) couplets in one
volume, as desired by his great Master.
Nam Ghosa and Ratnavali of Madhavadeva alongwith Kirttana and Dasama of
Sankaradeva are the four great works that are still worshipped all over
Assam upto Kochbehar. As the Gita is said to be the very heart of Krsna, so
the Nam Ghosa is considered as the heart of Madhavadeva, and it occupies the
same position in Assamese social life and literature as the Gita does in the
Indian
The Nam Ghosa gives briefly the essence of the tenets of the Eka-Sarana
Hari-Nam Dharma. It consists of 1001 couplets, composed in various metres
and logically arranged in different sections. It lays stress mainly on the
merit of practising the bhakti cult. It upholds the superiority of chanting
of the Name of the Lord over all religious practices. Nam (Name) means the
name of Parama Brahma in the form of Shri Krishna endowed with all the best
attributes that can be conceived by the range of human knowledge and
experience. Ghosa means 'refrain' or the burden repeated at the end of the
section of a poem. Hence,Nam Ghosa means the Chanting of the Names Divine.
More than a theological work, the Nam Ghosa actually reflects the spiritual
experience of a sincere devotee. Following the instructions of his Guru
Sankaradeva, Madhavadeva obtained the highest beatitude and realised the
relationship of God, soul and the world. All his spiritual findings and
achievements reflect in the Nam Ghosa.
is this guy related???
===
for research help in India --
http://www.uniraj.ernet.in/syllabi/Anthro/masyl.html
Sean
sorry, and thx for the heads up :)
i we you, us all need a database --
Like have I already mentioned that Paul Twitchell said that Rebazar tarz
gave the second initiation to Guru Nanak?
In one book Paul says RT was 'responsible' for first bringing out eckankar
as a public teaching.
Paul has said that Guru Nanak's "line" generated many paths eg Shiv Dayal's
line
and that the swami line of Masters stopped with Sawan Singh.
as in it came to him via by a Sikh ..
Shiv Dayal Singh (also known as Swami ji) was the first Satguru to start the
teachings of Radha Soami faith. His actual name was Seth Shiv Dayal Singh
ji. He was born on August 25, 1818 inAgra, Uttar Pradesh, India on the
Janmashtmi day. At the age of five, he was sent to school where he learnt
Hindi, Urdu, Persian and Gurumukhi. He also acquired a working knowledge of
Arabic andSanskrit. His parents were the followers of Param Sant Tulsi Sahib
from Hathras, India.[2] Sant Tulsi Sahib ji initiated him at the age of six.
===
Kabir was a Bhakti saint, who sang the ideals of seeing all of humanity as
one, his name, Kabir, is often interpreted as Guru's Grace. He kept himself
away from the fundamentalism of all the religions and explained the root
philosophies of spirituality.
Kabir openly criticized all sects and gave a new direction to Indian
philosophy. This is due to his straight forward approach that has a
universal appeal. It is for this reason that Kabir is held in high esteem
all over the world. To call Kabir a universal Guru is not an exaggeration.
He is also considered one of the early northern India Sants.
The holy book of the Sikhs the Guru Granth Sahib contains over 500 verses by
Kabir. The Sikh community refers to Kabir as a Bhagat, while others who hold
the Granth in high reverence call him a Guru.
Sharing as few conventions with each other as with the followers of the
traditions they challenged, the sants appear more as a diverse collection of
spiritual personalities than a specific religious tradition, although they
acknowledged a common spiritual root.[6]
The first generation of north Indian sants, (which included Kabir), appeared
in the region of Benares in the mid 15th century. Preceding them were two
notable 13th and 14th century figures, Namdev and Ramananda. The latter, a
Vaishnava ascetic, initiated Kabir, Ravidas, and other sants, according to
tradition. Ramananda's story is told differently by his lineage of
"Ramanandi" monks, by other Sants preceding him, and later by the Guru Nanak
and subsequent Sikh Gurus. What is known is that Ramananda accepted students
of all castes, a fact that was contested by the orthodox Hindus of that
time, and that his students formed the first generation of Sants.
"Happiness shall be yours when you come to the Root." Hence, to those who
keep their eye on the "one thing needful," denominations, creeds,
ceremonies, the conclusions of philosophy, the disciplines of asceticism,
are matters of comparative indifference. They represent merely the different
angles from which the soul may approach that simple union with Brahma which
is its goal, and are useful only insofar as they contribute to this
consummation. So thorough-going is Kab�r's eclecticism, that he seems by
turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist, Brahmin
and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable apprehension,
so vast and yet so near, which controls his life, he seizes and twines
together-as he might have woven together contrasting threads upon his
loom-symbols and ideas drawn from the most violent and conflicting
philosophies and faiths.
Kabir is revered as Satguru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
"By the 12th to 18th centuries, the bhakti movement had spread to all
regions and languages of India. Bhakti poetry and attitudes began to color
many aspects of Hindu culture, religious and secular, and became an integral
part of Indian society.[15] Prominentbhakti poets such as Ravidas and Kabir
wrote against the hierarchy of caste.[33] It extended its influence to
Sufism,[34] Sikhism,[17]Christianity,[35] and Jainism.[36] Bhakti offered
the possibility of religious experience by anyone, anywhere, at any
time.[37]"
===
It's been said Paul said that Sudar Singh was an ex- Sufi ... that's an VERY
odd name for a Sufi isn't it?
A Sufi just outside of Allahabad sounds normal ... but a Singh?
anyway ... paul gets info from Sudar .... eventually meets rebazar in person
in 1951 in India at just north of Darleeling. Darjeeling is smack bang in
the middle of Assam , NE India ... between Nepal and Bhutan
Darjeeling is 600 miles/ 1000klms ENE of Allahabad .
Beside followers of Sikhism, Guru Nanak is revered by Hindus and Muslim
Sufis across the Indian subcontinent.
Uttar Pradesh is home to many of the shrines that belong to the hermits of
Barelvi Sufi Order
llahabad is synonymous to Sangam. 'Sangam' actually means confluence in
Hindi. The city has been named so because it is situated on the confluence
of Ganges, Yamuna and mythical river Saraswati. That is why; Allahabad is
counted among the holiest of cities in India. A holy fair called Kumbh marks
the place. These are of three types. The one that takes place every year is
called 'Minor Kumbh'. Whereas the ones celebrated every 6 years and 12 years
are called Ardh-Kumbh and Maha Kumbh respectively.
> For a 40 year time period - from His late 20's to mid-60's
> - Nanak Sahib traveled throughout India, eventually making
> His way to Afghanistan, Persia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia,
> carrying the torch lit by Kabir and using it to illuminate
> countless souls wherever He went. Although he was not
> always welcomed everywhere He went, He had the gift of
> turning adversaries into friends.
and
In the period between the 14-17th centuries, a great bhakti movement swept
through Central and Northern India, initiated by a loosely associated group
of teachers or sants. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Vallabha, Surdas, Meera
Bai,Kabir, Tulsidas, Ravidas, Namdeo, Tukaram and other mystics spearheaded
the Bhakti movement in the North. [ more below about Bhakti ]
ECK Masters noted in some Eckankar publication, extant near 15 th Century
Rebezar Tarzs, LEM, 1461 - 1555 a.d.
Kabir, Eck Master, (also Kabira) (1440-1518)
Hindu poet-mystic, brought teaching out into
open. Bhaki movement
AND now I hear Guru Nanak , just may be an ECK master as well, he got his
2nd initiation from Rebazar tarz, according to Paul T ....
FIRE ON THE MOUNTAIN:
GURU NANAK - THE TORCHBEARER OF NAAM
- by Michael Turner
My first conscious exposure to Guru Nanak came in
the summer of 1975, when I was taking a kundalini yoga class
at a Sikh Ashram here in Tucson. On the wall of the yoga room
was a large drawing of Him, above which were the words,
"Ekankar Sat Nam Sri Wah Guru."
Within weeks of my return, I was introduced
to the Sound Current Teachings through an American path
called, coincidentally, "Eckankar."
A couple of things which I initially found interesting
were the fact that Guru Nanak was known in his time as the
"torchbearer" of the Way of Naam (in the same way that
Eckists refer to Rebazar Tarzs as the "Torchbearer of Eck"),
that many of the holy sites were called "Golden Temples"
and that the guardians of these temples were called "Mahantas"
(two significant words in the Eckankar theology) Given my
nearly two decades of tutelage within the structure of Eckankar,
I found the similarities most fascinating, and had to know more.
http://groups.google.com/group/radhasoami-satsang-world/browse_thread/thread/d66932e96bb245a6
THIS Kumbha Mela in Allahabad -- has come up before -- yes??
Disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya
Several disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya also said they met Babaji. Through
discussion with each other, and the fact that some of these encounters
included two or more witnesses, they confirmed that the person they saw was
the same sadhu that Lahiri called Mahavatar Babaji.[2][6][8]
In 1894, at the Kumbha Mela in Allahabad, Sri Yukteswar Giri, a disciple of
Lahiri Mahasaya, met Mahavatar Babaji. He was surprised by the striking
resemblance between Lahiri Mahasaya and Mahavatar Babaji.[2][5] Others who
met Babaji also commented on the resemblance.[6] It was at this meeting that
Mahavatar Babaji instructed Sri Yukteswar to write the book that was to
become Kaivalya Darshanam, or The Holy Science.[3] Sri Yukteswar had two
more meetings with Mahavatar Babaji, including one in the presence of Lahiri
Mahasaya.
.. gather at Allahabad to take part in the Magh Mela festival, which is held
on the banks of the Gange ... ... a larger scale every 12th year and is
called the Kumbha Mela, where over 10 million Hindu pilgrims congregate
cheers sean
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4afca6eb$0$6091$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Etznab
> turns Vedântist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist, Brahmin
> and Sûfî. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable apprehension,
> so vast and yet so near, which controls his life, he seizes and twines
> together-as he might have woven together contrasting threads upon his
> loom-symbols and ideas drawn from the most violent and conflicting
> philosophies and faiths.
>
>
> THIS Kumbha Mela in Allahabad -- has come up before -- yes??
>
> Disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya
> Several disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya also said they met Babaji. Through
> discussion with each other, and the fact that some of these encounters
> included two or more witnesses, they confirmed that the person they saw was
> the same sadhu that Lahiri called Mahavatar Babaji.[2][6][8]
>
> In 1894, at the Kumbha Mela in Allahabad, Sri Yukteswar Giri, a disciple of
> Lahiri Mahasaya, met Mahavatar Babaji. He was surprised by the striking
> resemblance between Lahiri Mahasaya and Mahavatar Babaji.[2][5] Others who
> met Babaji also commented on the resemblance.[6] It was at this meeting that
> Mahavatar Babaji instructed Sri Yukteswar to write the book that was to
> become Kaivalya Darshanam, or The Holy Science.[3] Sri Yukteswar had two
> more meetings with Mahavatar Babaji, including one in the presence of Lahiri
> Mahasaya.
>
> .. gather at Allahabad to take part in the Magh Mela festival, which is held
> on the banks of the Gange ... ... a larger scale every 12th year and is
> called the Kumbha Mela, where over 10 million Hindu pilgrims congregate
>
> cheers sean
>
>
> news:4afca6eb$0$6091$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>
>
> >> cheers
>
> > "well, Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankaradeva, who incidentally
> > started a system of initiation (saran lowa) into his religion Eka
> > Sarana or Mahapuruxiya Dharma. also lived to be 120 years
> > from 1461 to 1581"
>
> > Sean,
>
> > Can you post the link to that again? Maybe I misread it.
>
> > Is this talking about the same person below?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
>
> > Etznab
>
> > ===========================
>
> > OOOOPS -- yes
>
> > Yes ..
> > Mahapurusha Srimanta Sankardeva[1] (1449-1568) (Assamese: ????????
> > playwright, social-religious reformer, is a colossal figure in the
> > cultural and religious history of Assam, India.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
>
> > and mmm error on the year? 1449 vs 1461 ... = 12 years over 550 years ago
> > now.
>
> > In the Hindu calendars 1460 =
> > - Vikram Samvat 1515 - 1516
> > - Shaka Samvat 1382 - 1383
> > - Kali Yuga 4561 -
>
>
> read more »
"Like have I already mentioned that Paul Twitchell
said that Rebazar tarz gave the second initiation to
Guru Nanak?"
Sean,
I don't remember that. If you find out where he said
that, let me know.
"It's been said Paul said that Sudar Singh was an
ex- Sufi ... that's an VERY odd name for a Sufi isn't
it?"
I'd like to know where he said that, too. If anybody
happens to find it. I recall something about Paul
suggesting (something to the effect that) Sudar Singh
came back to the teachings of Eckankar. However, I
would guess that he was a Sikh, not a Sufi. So I will
have to search for a reference to be sure.
I'm not sure if this is the source, but it touches on
the subject, perhaps:
"[....] The original article from which the mistake was
made was published in the September 1965 issue of
Search Magazine. It reads in part:
"From Kabir's day those who have helped spread the
doctrine of bilocation were mainly, the leader of the
Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder.
Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din
Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, and Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh,
St. Anthony of Padua, and the contemporary clergy-
man, Padre Pie [sic], to name a few."
The reprinted, "Can You Be in Two Places At The
Same Time," in the booklet Introduction to Eckankar,
reads:
"From Kabir's day, those who have helped spread
the doctrine of Soul Travel were mainly the leaders of
the Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder.
Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din'l
Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, Sudar Singh, St. Anthony of
Padua, and the contemporary clergyman, Padre Pio, to
name a few." [5]
[5] Paul Twitchell, Introduction to Eckankar (Las Vegas:
Illuminated Way Press, 1966), pages 2-6.]
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
The quote you refer to about Sudar Singh being a Sufi
is (apparently) not on my timeline. This is not to say
the quote doesn't exist some place. I just don't have
a record of it, or recall just where it was written/ said.
BTW, this response is not mean to be critical of any-
body posting at A.R.E. Just a contribution / response
on my part to help better clarify a couple things.
Etznab
Etznab
Kinpa
this from Doug Marman's book the Whole Truth, concerning whether or
not Rebazar Tarzs gave Guru Nanak the 2nd initiation, and on Sudar
Singh being a sufi...from the book, this information comes from
Bernadine Burlin's letter in response to David Lane's initial letter
to Eckankar..."Guru Nanak during the 15th century,wrote in his book
Jap Ji (to be found in libraries) of ECKANKAR.He had recieved his
second initiation in ECKANKAR through Rebazar Tarzs." so this letter
is at least one source of this information...im not sure exactly where
PT might have said this but it is said in his writings somewhere (im
still looking for it) but Bernadine Burlin also says in this letter
that Sudar Singh was a sufi, and in the letter she says this
information comes from PT's tape entitled Names,Places And Sounds In
The Discourses, where he states "Sudar Singh was the first teacher
under whom i studied.He was a Sufi but he was teaching a sort of
splinter group of the ECKANKAR study because he'd left Sufism and gone
somewhat into this and he had a little monastery or little
Abbot,Abbey, up above Allahabad,India."
so if anyone has that tape it could be checked out as a possible
origin of this comment about Sudar Singh having been a Sufi...
Etznab
Kinpa,
I wanted to say Paul said Sikh, and not Sufi, with regard to
Sudar Singh. That is what I remember.
BTW, I wouldn't too much believe every single thing reported
by Bernadine Burlin. Afterall, she was in a position of defend-
ing Eckankar at one time and might have made up some stuff.
Didn't Bernadine once suggest Paul only had two masters
that initiated him? Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs?
"Sri Darwin Gross, the Living Eck Master of Eckankar has
stated that he knows for a fact that Paul Twitchell only had two
Eck Masters during his earthly stay here; the Tibetan Rebazar
Tarzs and Sudar Singh, and no one else. They were the only
Masters to initiate Paul Twitchell."
--Bernadine Burlin, Personal Secretary to Darwin Gross
Well, consider the following:
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments
in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Swami Premananda, of India,
who has a Yoga church in Washington, D. C., said, 'When someone
asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote
several volumes of books on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Sudar Singh, the great Eck
Master said, 'When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his phil-
osophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books on the
subject."
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
All I'm pointing out here is that Sudar Singh appears to be a name
used to replace the names of others. This is not the only example.
In other places one can read Paul T. was initiated by Kirpal Singh.
And, didn't Harold Klemp refer to Paul Twitchell as a "former chela"
of Kirpal Singh?
OK. So Bernadine said Darwin said Paul was only initiated by two
masters. Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs. Darwin also "said" there
was no plagiarism in The Far Country. Whatever :)
************************************************************
Paul said Sudar Singh used to be a Sufi?
OK. So was Sudar Singh a Sikh as well?
Here is what Paul Twitchell (apparently) wrote about Sudar Singh:
"[....] It was very interesting about Sudar Singh. He was rather a
tall, lean man. He had a very lean face at the time, and he had
started out as a Sikh in his life and changed later because he was
in his early twenties when he came back to ECKANKAR. And it
was then that he went into training there in his own country and
became an ECK Master."
p. 40, Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master
You see (all of you) I naturally had to question that reference
to Sufi and Sudar Singh. What I remembered was Sikh. Not
Sufi. Where did Sudar Singh have time to become a Sufi if he
started out as a Sikh and came back to Eckankar in his early
20's?
I'm not saying Paul didn't mention Sudar Singh was a Sufi.
Only that right now I don't recall where he wrote / said that.
BTW, just because somebody writes / says something that doesn't
mean it is true. Especially when the writer is (apparently) Paul Twit-
chell. It's an apparent fact he changed the names of people and also
had other people believing he was born in 1922. (If Paul was born in
1922, there is NO WAY he graduated high school in
1928!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
What I have to ask myself (when researching facts vs. fiction far as
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar is concerned) is whether an event that
Paul / Eckankar wrote about was a real event, or a pseudo event? I
have to ask myself this question when myself & others write about
Eckankar history, too. However, I waited until I found that quote for
Sudar Singh being a Sikh before stating it. This way it is based on
tangible evidence that everyone can see for themself.
Pointing these things out does not mean I'm attacking Eckankar
and desire to have people call me an Eckankar detractor. What it
means is that I'm responding according to what I have seen - and
responding according to what I recall.
Sufi and Sikh do look similar in some ways. Both have four letters
and befgin with an S. Maybe someone made an honest mistake?
Etznab
Kinpa
i honestly dont recall him ever being mentioned as a Sikh, but my
awareness is not total either, so that doesnt mean it didnt happen,
just that i am unaware of it...as far as PT being initiated by two
Masters, the way i see it is that he was initiated by 2 REAL Masters,
and also was initiated by some "so called" masters...JMO perhaps one
needs to take into account the meaning of the terms others had when
they used them because that can completely change what the story
actually said....as far as Sudar Singh's name being used to replace
others, sure, that's possibly PT using his artistic lisence in a way
that he saw was needed and would work at the time, and i have no
problem with his having done so, however, i will say, that Sudar Singh
DOES exist, i have met him, and i dont have any reason to believe that
he was anything other than what he said he was...and the same may be
said of Rebazar Tarzs, he simply exists whether or not anyone can
prove this or not isnt among his concerns,so he wont go out of his way
to prove he exists, but those that have met him KNOW he
exists....about Sikh vs. Sufi, perhaps someone made an honest mistake,
we all do from time to time, but also think about it, there is alot of
commonality amongst the two, and however much any members of one or
the other might argue how different the two are, the commonalities of
the two are far more important IMO as this leads directly back to the
EK, the One, the source of all commonality....at least IMHO it does...
Sean
> turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist, Brahmin
> and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
> > playwright, social-religious reformer, is a colossal figure in the
> > cultural and religious history of Assam, India.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srimanta_Sankardeva
>
> > and mmm error on the year? 1449 vs 1461 ... = 12 years over 550 years
> > ago
> > now.
>
> > In the Hindu calendars 1460 =
> > - Vikram Samvat 1515 - 1516
> > - Shaka Samvat 1382 - 1383
> > - Kali Yuga 4561 -
>
> ...
>
> read more �
"Like have I already mentioned that Paul Twitchell
said that Rebazar tarz gave the second initiation to
Guru Nanak?"
Sean,
I don't remember that. If you find out where he said
that, let me know.
--
SEAN : It's in Doug's the whole truth .. will get the detaiol for you later,
if I forget please ask via email,
--
"It's been said Paul said that Sudar Singh was an
ex- Sufi ... that's an VERY odd name for a Sufi isn't
it?"
I'd like to know where he said that, too. If anybody
happens to find it. I recall something about Paul
suggesting (something to the effect that) Sudar Singh
came back to the teachings of Eckankar. However, I
would guess that he was a Sikh, not a Sufi. So I will
have to search for a reference to be sure.
====
SEAN:
I have it I'll find it again .. somewhere .. Paul said Sudar Singh was a
LAPSED Sufi, he had turned away from that and went to teaching a slightly
different thing bascially ECKANKAR to a small group ... in Allahabad India
ashram
Quoted from article incldued near back of TWT -- the whole truth.
-----
I'm not sure if this is the source, but it touches on
the subject, perhaps:
"[....] The original article from which the mistake was
made was published in the September 1965 issue of
Search Magazine. It reads in part:
"From Kabir's day those who have helped spread the
doctrine of bilocation were mainly, the leader of the
Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder.
Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din
Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, and Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh,
St. Anthony of Padua, and the contemporary clergy-
man, Padre Pie [sic], to name a few."
The reprinted, "Can You Be in Two Places At The
Same Time," in the booklet Introduction to Eckankar,
reads:
--
SEAN:
Hafiz, Jalal din Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, were obviously PRE Kabir, fwiw
If the Sikh order taught Bi-location, then obviously the Sufi's did too ...
Sudar Singh represents both IDEAS ---- Sufi and Sikh combined into the one
name/personage/idea/imagination/group of teachers teaching the same stuff
with other stuff mixed in ... this is just my common sense talking here, and
my opinion -- it is not a fact, I have NO IDEA who Sudar Singh, but if he
was an individual ECK master, then someone would know HIS individual
Spiritual name - given harold doesn't even know, or can state it as outright
as he has shared his own then I can only figure the obvious is well,
obvious.
happy to be shown where this is a serious error.
There is NO law about sharing the spiritual names of ECK masters to asssit
contemplations - that I know of. Is there?
--
"From Kabir's day, those who have helped spread
the doctrine of Soul Travel were mainly the leaders of
the Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder.
Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din'l
Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, Sudar Singh, St. Anthony of
Padua, and the contemporary clergyman, Padre Pio, to
name a few." [5]
[5] Paul Twitchell, Introduction to Eckankar (Las Vegas:
Illuminated Way Press, 1966), pages 2-6.]
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
The quote you refer to about Sudar Singh being a Sufi
is (apparently) not on my timeline. This is not to say
the quote doesn't exist some place. I just don't have
a record of it, or recall just where it was written/ said.
BTW, this response is not mean to be critical of any-
body posting at A.R.E. Just a contribution / response
on my part to help better clarify a couple things.
Etznab
=======
SEAN
YEP, I am with you, ignore the rest. ;-)
I wil find it type it out and send ti to you, when I re-locate the passage
by paul .. after I do the dishes feed the cat, milk the cows, hose the
garden vacume, do the taxes, brush my teeth, have a bath and god knows what
else I have to do ... <smile>
NO HURRY WORRY
thanks sean <wink>
Etznab
Sean
> > turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > Brahmin
> > and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
==============
That is it , yes .. THX
I was all ready to go thru the Paul Tapes we had here in our eck centre and
re-record them into higher quality digital files as best i could so people
could bortrow thenm on CD disc and listen on their home PC ..
Unfortunately a Bureauratic Rock fell upon the pathway, and thus .........
as usual nothing gets done as no one can make a decision that goes beyond NO
or "we ned to think about it" ... some issue about "copyright" ???
It's an issue to copy an old tape by paul published under eckankar for
student sof eckankar to continue using it with modern technology ???? ..
yep, a "copyright" issue . Go figure. <shrug>
Etznab
> "Kinpa" <tsharp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > turns Vedântist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > Brahmin
> > > and Sûfî. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
Sean,
Thanks for sharing all of those things. It's good to be
clear where the information came from. The source &
who wrote / said it.
Paul was liable to say just about anything on tape it
seems - including impersonating Rebazar Tarzs - so
I wouldn't doubt someplace he said Sudar was a Sufi.
About the re-recording of Paul's tapes, umm, well, let
me just say not everybody making decisions is speak-
ing for everybody else. IMO. However, some people's
opinions (in a hierarchy) carry more weight - it seems.
Etznab
Sean
> > > > seems by
> > > > turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > > Brahmin
> > > > and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
====
Hi Kinpa, it;s as simple as the surname being SINGH .. that is a Sikh name
and only SIKHs use it ... so by default Sudar Singh is a Sikh name, and can
be nothing else.
Now, whetehr it is a real person or a true name, is another matter entirely,
and not the point being made, imho.
If BB made a mistake, or if Doug didn;t transcibe his book properly, this is
what happens .. and it happens way too often.
But the fact is the TEXT as is known does say at one pouint in time that
Sudar was a Sufi -- who moved away from sufism towards teaching a *form* of
eckankar ...
===
as far as PT being initiated by two
Masters, the way i see it is that he was initiated by 2 REAL Masters,
and also was initiated by some "so called" masters...JMO perhaps one
needs to take into account the meaning of the terms others had when
they used them because that can completely change what the story
actually said....
--
Sean :
YES that is exactly the problem and it came to be known publicly because of
questions asked by david lane ...
David asked specifically if Eckankar had any knowledge about Paul being
initiated by Kirpal singh ... THAT is what he asked in his context and in
normal english of what the term *intitiated by* meant ot the rest of the
world ...
The reply he got was gobbly-gook .... which spoke about 2 ECK Masters .. but
that was NOT what David asked in 1978.
In crica 2007 Doug then goes into detailed analysyis of why BB's answer was
so CORRECT, and delves into all the details about capital M Masters, and
small m masters --- about all this other stuff and yet ignores the
obvious -- Dvaid never asked what capital M ECK Masters Paul was intitiated
by, he asked do they have knowledge of Paul being intitated by Kirpal Singh
..
The CORRECT answer is still obvious today !!!
What Doug and so many others do is to utterly IGNORE taking into account the
meaning of the terms others had when they used them in this case
speiocifically Davids!!!
And not once does Doug state the obvious and acknowledge no matter how right
and correct what BB said may be in Doug's mind, or Darwins, or even in Pauls
.... that it is ALL irrelvant to the letter and questions that David
actually asked.
Given such an *other worldly* utter disconnect form normal life on planet
earth in regards what "got intitiated" actually means, it is no wonder that
David Lane smelt a rat in that response as a KISS OFF .... or that BB and
darwin did not actually know anything about Kirpal Singh -- when obviously
we all shoudl know now that at least darwin did, and gail did .. and many
mnay others did.
BUT the letter DENIES this totally -- if I told you our sun is called
Antares and not The Sun, wouldn;t you be suspect of my grip on reality, or
what I have been taught?
And this NEVER stops ... in regards the Life of Paul .... many mnay times
people who have tried to help, actually make things a lot worse thatn they
really need to be. yet everything is exactly as it is supposed to be -- and
yes Paul copied/lifted that saying from someone else who wrote i the
spiritual field too.
And good on him, it's a damn good truthful statement to pass along.
But if people spent just 1% of their time making sure they themselves were
in hamrony with the person asking the questions before they answered, or
went into longwinded replies about the virtues or speical differences of ECK
SPEAK, then it would have and still could save a lot of wasted energy and
spinning of wheels and misunderstandings at the very beginning -- eg the
answers that David got from Eckankar were to david's quite *normal* academic
mindset and plain english dictionary, quite off the planet and useless to
HIM.
There's an old saying what goes around comes around .... anything and
everything has a cause.
======
as far as Sudar Singh's name being used to replace
others, sure, that's possibly PT using his artistic lisence in a way
that he saw was needed and would work at the time, and i have no
problem with his having done so, however, i will say, that Sudar Singh
DOES exist, i have met him,
SEAN:
What is his spiritual name then?
What proved to you this person is the same person called Sudar Singh spoken
about in Eckankar?
What proved to you that he used the name Sudar Singh when alive on earth?
If you can answer these simple questions, then I have about another 100 I
would like to put to you, seriously.
===========
An end comment ... whether or not sudar singh and rebabar tarz exist or not,
were known by those names on earth or not is irrelevant in reagrds the
recording of an accurate physical record of history surrounding Paul and
Eckankar.
When claims that peope like Sudar Singh lived, that he had an ashram in
Allahabad, that Pual met him onthe inner and in the physical -- then it
becomes under the purview of physical world history and biography.
When at the same time the same persons name is used to replace other real
physical world people it is NOT a good look, and people WILL ask questions
becuase, basically something does not fit the picture.
It has nothing to do with whether or not some eck master who at one time
went by the name Sudar singh -- or if he is an ECK master or represents a
real being, a spiritual being now I imagine -- but who knows??
When the leaders of a group such as eckankar that is out of the ordinary in
western spiritual ideas and religions ... gives 5 more different records of
when this Sudar Singh died .. well that makes the "look" look even less like
a good look ... .
This does NOT deny your own experiences with a being you now believe/know is
Sudar Singh.
These are TWO separtate issues ... if there wasn't so much bleeding between
the two ways of operation spiritual/inner vs physical/reality - ie life on
earth in 2009 .... well that's where all this *conflict* and accusations
about what a detractor is or isn't, re-starts a whole load of utter bollocks
.. that never solves anything for anyone but more karma to work off .. imho
it does.
Sudar Singh was said to have lived i India and that he was an ECK Master.
Some people think it is important to discover some physical records of such
a person as being alive and that went by the same name, and that had an
ashram, and that taught something akin to sufism/sikhism/bhakti yoga ....
being the location is India, and the person is an Idnian -- well that could
be any number of about 3 billion souls who have passed thru India in the
last 150 years or so ..
Why anyone would take such an enquiry as a personal affront to their
beliefs, their religion or their inner expereinces is utterly amazing to me
[ not saying that you are Kinpa, but there are many who actually do act
tlike this ] and I just think it is totally *nuts* to do so.
and more than that I am realy past my use-by-date for having to deal with
such emotional isseus that individuals constantly seem to want to deal with.
i;d suggest a good counsellor and some CBT may be better than arguing about
what david Lane, or a detractor says about Eckankar oer Paul twitchell.
Doug's work on TWT has made absolutely no dent in the desire of detractors
or David lane to chnage their minds about the hard facts, and the picture
that does not add up.
I do not think those people need to be condemned for pointing out what is
pretty obvious and accurately correct. - Nothing adds up in a physical
historical worldly sense.
people are allowed to feel skeptical about that ... and to keep asking
querstions and searching for answers ... just like harold informed himself
about tangible history, and just as Doug marman did himself others are also
entitled imho
cheers sean
Sean
> > > by
> > > turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > Brahmin
> > > and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
Kinpa,
Well, consider the following:
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
************************************************************
Etznab
===========
SEAN:
sounds all good to me ... see my other comments to Kinpa please.
All the time you have spent of YOUR life coming up with the specifics to say
what you just said is a real shame imho. At the end of the day you have not
solved anything here, and no one hardly could care --- there must be an
easier way than repeating yourself, goin gdiging for the things you "rcall"
when something comes up ... like me, it;s going aropund in circles over the
same terrain.
In 2 years from now there will someone esle askign the same questions, or
noticeing the little snippets in Doug's book that he never ever addresses
but skips over as other matters were his focus.
Me? I am dumping every single shadowy memory I have about the History --- I
am not going to belive anyoen's opinion baout this anymore ... evebn sri
harold ahs been proved that things he has said could not be true in a real
world physicall sense,. or least what he said can't be true and others
things he has said, or Paul said or Doug aid, or the records show also be
true at the same time.
That's not a complaint .. just the way it is.
Kinpa
> "Kinpa" <tsharp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > seems by
> > > > > turns Vedântist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > > > Brahmin
> > > > > and Sûfî. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
i didnt ask him, and to tell you the truth, i feel rather silly that
it didnt occur to me to ask him, perhaps i shouldve...
________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> What proved to you this person is the same person called Sudar Singh spoken
> about in Eckankar?
>_________________________________________________________________________________________________
nothing did, i made an assumption because Sudar Singh was who i was
asking for...the 1st soul that showed up was Kirpal himself...as a
test, i allowed him to speak, and he claimed he was Sudar Singh,
however, i KNEW it was Kirpal, i had seen his picture, so i sent him
on his way, he did NOT have the vibrations that an Eck Master has,
just one way of telling a fake from the real deal, and there are no
end to the entities that will seek to impersonate a Master for the
purpose of misleading a soul, if nothing else, THIS has been a major
part of my spiritual training, learning to know the difference between
a true spiritual Master, and a fake....now the 2nd soul that showed up
was one looking not entirely different from the first, in the sense of
that he appeared to be an older Indian gentleman with beard and
mustache, but it wasnt Kirpal, this soul also claimed to be Sudar
singh, but, he was able to prove to me that, if nothing else, he WAS
an Eck Master, and i dont believe a Master would appear as another
Master that never existed for the sake of fooling me as to his
identity, or to save the good word of PT for that matter, so i
accepted him as he was, his vibrations told me that he was indeed an
Eck Master, though according to him, he was one that didnt often work
with people in such a conscious manner, thus the reason that so few
(if any??)have reported having experiences with him....and so for
these reasons i say i assumed this was really him, but i did not ask
for any sort of proof that he ever existed as a physical person, or
where he existed at, perhaps ill ask IF i get a chance to, i havent
seen him since...
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
> What proved to you that he used the name Sudar Singh when alive on earth?
>___________________________________________________________________________
i tested him for being a real Eck Master, and after that, accepted his
word, there was no actual proof received other than proof that he was
an Eck Master...
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
> If you can answer these simple questions, then I have about another 100 I
> would like to put to you, seriously.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
believe me when i say that i also have hundreds of questions that have
not as of yet been answered by any of these Masters, but i do consider
myself lucky to have gained any answer at all....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ===========
>
> An end comment ... whether or not sudar singh and rebabar tarz exist or not,
> were known by those names on earth or not is irrelevant in reagrds the
> recording of an accurate physical record of history surrounding Paul and
> Eckankar.
>
> When claims that peope like Sudar Singh lived, that he had an ashram in
> Allahabad, that Pual met him onthe inner and in the physical -- then it
> becomes under the purview of physical world history and biography.
>
> When at the same time the same persons name is used to replace other real
> physical world people it is NOT a good look, and people WILL ask questions
> becuase, basically something does not fit the picture.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but on the other hand, the questions and the seeking after answers
becomes in itself a weeding out process...i understand what youre
saying, but it is this very thing that REQUIRES one to seek the
answers from the inner, and so, a connection is made to the inner
path, which is the most important thing about Eckankar, and, if in
making this inner connection one is unable to let go of the attachment
to the mental satisfaction that the physical world answers would
provide,one way or the other, then that individual will not be able to
make the TRUE inner connection, on the level of Soul, because one
cannot Be,tHERE, with an attachment, if you get my meaning, so whether
or not PT knew this and wrote his books this way on purpose(i dont
know if he did or didnt) it does serve a purpose, because only the
bold (bold enough to let go of attachments among other things) will
enter heaven, and IMHO those who are willing and able to let go of
these attachments will be the most likely to find the true answers to
these questions even if there is not one shred of physical evidence
that they ever walked the earth, and to me, THIS is exactly why the
Masters say they dont care who leaves the path for whatever reason,
they literally love soul THAT much, plus the fact that they know those
souls will one day be returning again...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
> It has nothing to do with whether or not some eck master who at one time
> went by the name Sudar singh -- or if he is an ECK master or represents a
> real being, a spiritual being now I imagine -- but who knows??
>
> When the leaders of a group such as eckankar that is out of the ordinary in
> western spiritual ideas and religions ... gives 5 more different records of
> when this Sudar Singh died .. well that makes the "look" look even less like
> a good look ... .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i understand your points, but i have no answers for them at this
time...if i should gain the answers i will certainly let you know...
___________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> This does NOT deny your own experiences with a being you now believe/know is
> Sudar Singh.
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
no offense taken...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> These are TWO separtate issues ... if there wasn't so much bleeding between
> the two ways of operation spiritual/inner vs physical/reality - ie life on
> earth in 2009 .... well that's where all this *conflict* and accusations
> about what a detractor is or isn't, re-starts a whole load of utter bollocks
> .. that never solves anything for anyone but more karma to work off .. imho
> it does.
>
> Sudar Singh was said to have lived i India and that he was an ECK Master.
>
> Some people think it is important to discover some physical records of such
> a person as being alive and that went by the same name, and that had an
> ashram, and that taught something akin to sufism/sikhism/bhakti yoga ....
> being the location is India, and the person is an Idnian -- well that could
> be any number of about 3 billion souls who have passed thru India in the
> last 150 years or so ..
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i understand your point, and make no mistake, i am curious myself as
to any physical evidence...there was an old indian gent, it was
reported in a mystic world some years back (mid 90's i think) that
knew of Sudar Singh and his ashram, claimed he(Sudar) had allowed this
guy to hide out there for a night when authorities were wrongfully
looking for him...it was stated that he was rather offended that
anyone would believe he DIDNT exist as this Master had saved this
guy's life...not physical evidence, but it is a witness report, so it
does have a degree of value, or at the very least, is interesting...
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
> Why anyone would take such an enquiry as a personal affront to their
> beliefs, their religion or their inner expereinces is utterly amazing to me
> [ not saying that you are Kinpa, but there are many who actually do act
> tlike this ] and I just think it is totally *nuts* to do so.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no offense taken~! these individuals have trouble with the ego, simple
as that~!
______________________________________________________________________________________________
> and more than that I am realy past my use-by-date for having to deal with
> such emotional isseus that individuals constantly seem to want to deal with.
> i;d suggest a good counsellor and some CBT may be better than arguing about
> what david Lane, or a detractor says about Eckankar oer Paul twitchell.
>
> Doug's work on TWT has made absolutely no dent in the desire of detractors
> or David lane to chnage their minds about the hard facts, and the picture
> that does not add up.
>
> I do not think those people need to be condemned for pointing out what is
> pretty obvious and accurately correct. - Nothing adds up in a physical
> historical worldly sense.
>
> people are allowed to feel skeptical about that ... and to keep asking
> querstions and searching for answers ... just like harold informed himself
> about tangible history, and just as Doug marman did himself others are also
> entitled imho
>
> cheers sean
i agree~! to each their own, and they have every right to it~!
Sean
> > > > > seems by
> > > > > turns Ved�ntist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > > > Brahmin
> > > > > and S�f�. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
no offense taken...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________________________________________________
===============
HI Kinpa,
thanks so much for taking the time to reply as you have .. excellent. I
won;t belabour the deatils any further, as I too hear where you are coming
from and that's just fine, and nice to hear things put in such a way.
In particular your reply to my specific questions about Sudar Singh and your
expereince is for me a breath of fresh air, and I respect you for this
immensely, and I intend to respect your experiences, they are quite valuable
imho, as well.
as to what comes after the word "but" a few times. OK, sure this is true for
me too in some respects, though I differ because I feel it's a bit
over-stated, or over-emphasized. It's a bit of a leap from queries about a
year of death, or a year of physical meeting about an individual with at
present no known physcial records or reports [ bar the example you gave ]
and any noption of Attachment, let alone an unnecessary negatively impacting
attachment ... to a degree that it;s going to stop someone from getting to
the Soul Plane.
Like if this "physical stuff" was so unimportant and that all the answers
are to be found in the inner so to speak .... then a) why are here and b)
why did Harold need to put all of Paul's old material in a locked room and
spend a cpl years slowly reading thru it and C) then bother to speak about
it in the physical to the chelas ???
Follow? :)
I mean we can easily paint an imagintive scenery picture and then stick
anyone's face inside it - not only that but ECKANKAR is an outer and inner
path from what I understand it as, and it teaches that basically everything
works in this way.
As you said in your reply about your Sudar Singh experience, people can just
as easily be misled on the inner as they are on the outer.
But here we are again, someone asking questions about which year ?? and
before you can call me to dinner -- we are onto the topic of the path itself
and the failing sof anyone who has to ask an outer question because it is
all available on the Inner == eg " THIS is exactly why the Masters say they
dont care who leaves the path for whatever reason"
There is a clear pattern of behaviour in this *default* position when anyone
brings up an issue of totally inconsistent physical historic events and
reports ... any minute now they will be leaving the path .. what is with
that?
There is something about this that I am unable to comprehend the motivation
of. It is just not something that I have a need to do. It is not soemthing
that is actually apart of the teachings of ECK .. let alone the outer
teachings of Eckankar, no matter under which master since 1965.
Frankly I just don't buy it as valid response related to the topic I raised
..... I do understand what you mean from a general position but that intself
is part of the problem .. a generalisation based on 'stories' heard perhaps
vs the way it is.
I don't know and I don;t judge you for saying what you did, as I have heard
version sof this as a reply a thousand times, and it has never ever been
satid=sifying to anyone that I know about. It certainly never chnaged one
Eckists view who subsequently left that I am aware of [ ha, like I;d know
anyway <vbg> ... but this is the rub, I know I don't know, and I don't
pretend I do.... on top of that I also know that it doesn't matter either ]
I'll tell you this though ... there is something else I already know for
sure, that things like the date about Sudar Singhs death or paul meeting
him, and finding some physcial evidence about his life is NOT actually the
main game here - there is something far far more important here going on
that has been running under the surface of this whole saga for ages.
Paul T referred to it as being cause or effect. Predominantly what has gone
on here has been an example of ECKists being the effect of the work of david
lane and the effect thus replicated in detractors of eckankar who came here
for example.
ECKists see this pattern of "topics" or questions and assume it is universal
.. all round pegs must fit into this round whole. Sorry, doesn;t work like
that, except in one's imagination. The majority of eckists no matter their
personality type, or level of expereince continue to react and become the
effect of this rather than be cause in their own life and live in the
present moment, now.
eg Etznab is NOT Lurk even if Lurk at one time asked about or questioned the
same issue. Sean is not Leaf/kent even though I might point out the same
glaring gap in knowledge or impossible time frames of the current knowledge
as he did.
To react in this way is to be effect and not cause in one's own life. Like
has anyone ever considered the possibility that some things are actually
kept from an individual on the inner for the very reason that our life path
decrees that the answer be found in the physical world, by something as
simple as delving into the history of Sudar Singh or anyone else?
And of course there is the equally possible truth that the high road for an
individual ECKist to to do BOTH, and spend time going theru ther expereince
of researching, contemplating and working thru the expereince of doing both
at the same time?
That the answer at times is not to attempt or expect what is impossible or
blocked by the Masters for a very special reason unknown to all.
Did Paul Twitchell ONLY use his inner resources to work out the meaning of
Life and create Eckankar? If so, why would he need to read one book let
alone 100,000 of them?
Who decides when I or etznab, or anyone are focusing too much on an outer
research project .... asking about dates and who what when historically
whislt at the same time lapping up every report paul ever gave about teh
istory of various opaths and teachers ... now it's a problem and I should
find the answer on the inner, as =everyone else suggests ....... my question
is simple -- where on earth do people fidn thesde things for they certainly
are not part of paul's nor harold's idea of the teahcing sof eckankar, IMHO.
I have not read notions like this anywhere but here on a.r.e. or other
online eck groups, or the occassional extremist in the local eck community.
Who decides how much attachment is too much, and how could anyone else even
come close to knowing from a few posts on a newsgroup .... ?
I've ben here on an off for what 11 years .. and I have never asked this
question about sudar singh ... and it is really no biggy for me now anymore
than it was 25 years ago . so why is this NOW a problem and I better get
some help for my attachment issues or I'll be off the path quick smart.
Where does this come from????
So as I said before, here we are again talking about the teachings that say
we need both inner and outer expereinces, an inner and outer master, can
find truth on the inner and the outer but no no NO, if we have a question we
should get the answer on the Inner, that's the only real juice and if not
then there's something wrong with the person if they can't rid themselves of
their physical attachments for they will never get to the true inner worlds
.... or the Soul Plane etc.
Kinpa ... this isn't so much about what you have said, and no it;s not a
complaint either, it si the endlessly repeated pattern of behaviour of
well-meaning ECKists I am pointing too, and that's all. Nothing is as cut
and dried as everyone thinks it is. We really do not know as much as we
might like to think we do.... especially about others. [ yes, i'm talking
about others too, and I get the mirro effect clearly ... but bare with me
anyway ]
It's the context man! The context is "lies by paul twitchell" and
"plagiarism" = People leaving Eckankar because of "this" ---- "---" as
reported by the naysayers, and as not very well responded to nor addressed
fully [ in a way others could understand and accept ] by Eckankar nor
ECKists.
As such it doesn't go away, and from what i have seen about all the other
paths, this is normal. Normal does not mean that it has to be this way, for
it could be exceptional instead of just the same as every other
religion./path / lineage has failed to deal with these issues.
Everyone thinks that their path, their religion, their Master/Teacher, their
WAY is THE BEST EVER -- if it wasn't they wouldn't be in IT now would
they -- they would be in that other group over there!!!
To expect anyone who is of another path, or who has rejected Eckankar to
think much of it, is mind-numbingly denying reality and borders on the
self-delusional.
Paul squeezed a lifetime of research and real life expereinces into a dozen
really good books, and lots of letters and talks. Out of that came Eckankar.
It is new, but there is a connected physcial history - if there isn't then
the teachings themselves are flawed, becasue this is exactly what the
teachings say ..... todays teachign sof Eckanakr have been here before and
come thru various other paths, and teachigns and individuals, quietly,
sometimes secretly, and sometimes publicly eg Guru nanak. Now I said Guru
nanak, I didn't say Sihkism ... there's a difference.
Let me finsih this this way about treh "context and the effect business here
....
The history issues like dates, names and the other issue of Plagiarism that
cause confusion and difficulty for some, and that are curiousities for
others ... is like a fin in the ocean waters -- a small tip that unsettles
the water as it moves along.
Under the surface is something much much larger but we can't quite see it ..
it's at a distance. The ocean waters is the body ECKANKAR -- the Fin .. is
like the tip of an iceberg, you know it's there but still you are not 100%
sure what it is.
Naturally, due to previous experiences one could say everytime they saw that
Fin go by another ECKist became a detractor but askingthe very same
questions ... OMG it must be a shark's fin, that means it is a shark, that
means this is dangerous .. let's kill all the sharks so we can be safe and
sound and not have an unsettled ocean of thousands of these deadly "black
magician" shark fins ....... that's the context ... that is the FRAME that
Doug has placed his great work and research .. this is the context of the
vague response Harold gave about the Astral Library to people in the
physical that I personally doubt that an ECK master could grasp what he was
getting at exactly ... tip toeing around the "unspeakable" hasn't really
changed the thing as nothing has really been resolved.
The thing is - when I see a Fin in the ocean, or near the beach do you know
what I first think it is ?? ??
.
.
.
.
.
.
A DOLPHIN
Do you know why? Because in my expereince ... 99/100 it is a Dolphin Fin ...
and not a shark.
You can take this story anyway you wish ... in reality when I am at the
beach this is what i see .... I have been woken up from dead sleeps on a
beach under the trees for no reason only to sit up and see a pod of Dolphins
playing in the surf. It isn't a one off either.
But one can also look at it allegorically as well, or like a parable if you
will.
So I ask as an open query, a rhetorical question that no one neesd to answer
from Harold down - it would be nice to know when did Sudar Singh translate
.. a simple question, with a simple answer. Just the year would do, but a
death certificate would be just fantastic, or any kind of reasonable
evidence that supports the claim.
My life will not be over if I die not knowing, as it isn't THAT important to
my life personally.
BTW re the reported knowledge about Sudar Singh ---- there's a pattern of
behaviour about Indians in general ... they have been trained from birth to
say whatever they need to say - especially if it means any kind of benefit
to themselves, be it material or prestige. I have a guideleine never
believe a word an Indian says, without some kind of concete verification --
otherwise alwasy assume they are lying first, and if they aren't then it's a
bonus. That's an confirmed observation, not a criticism, and of course a big
generalisation. But to rely on first hand reports from an Indian - hindu or
sikh or muslim ??? nah, never!!! I didn;t make this up all by myself, in
fact you could say this a well known and commonly plagiarised justifiable
true belief of many a one who has dealt with Indians in any substantial way.
Of course for every rule there is the exceptions to the rule .. but it is
these very exceptions that prove the rule. because and exception is
exceptional, that's why they call it an exception to the rule, and wehy the
rule stands.
Ponder this ... then go read a few stories about Indian Gurus, Sadhus, and
the history of the many paths there ... otherwise enquire on the inner and
see what pops up. :)
Thanks Kinpa ... really!
take care, sean
Etznab
> "Kinpa" <tsharp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > seems by
> > > > > turns Vedântist and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist,
> > > > > Brahmin
> > > > > and Sûfî. In the effort to tell the truth about that ineffable
Sean,
I was severely impressed upon reading that post.
Glad you are here and took the time.
Etznab
Sean
a PS and quotes from Doug's book TWT
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4aff986b$0$1779$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
a clarification on semantics and exaggeration ...
>
>
> What Doug and so many others do is to utterly IGNORE taking into account
> the meaning of the terms others had when they used them in this case
> speiocifically Davids!!!
>
That wasn't written very clearly ... caps are for emphasis, not yelling or
screaming irl. :)
When I say ignore, I don't mean entirely .. and I don't mean purposely, and
I don't mean it as a criticism or wrong, and I don't mean it as in
"ignorant" but more about avoidance of, or skippin gover, or minmising ....
and a mere observation on my part [ accurate or not ] of a cause of possible
mis-understandings and entrenching of frozen POV's.
> And not once does Doug state the obvious and acknowledge no matter how
> right and correct what BB said may be in Doug's mind, or Darwins, or even
> in Pauls .... that it is ALL irrelvant to the letter and questions that
> David actually asked.
>
I would think saying "not once" ... is defintiely exaggerated and not
accurate ..
> Given such an *other worldly* utter disconnect form normal life on planet
> earth in regards what "got intitiated" actually means, it is no wonder
> that David Lane smelt a rat in that response as a KISS OFF .... or that BB
> and darwin did not actually know anything about Kirpal Singh -- when
> obviously we all shoudl know now that at least darwin did, and gail did ..
> and many mnay others did.
>
> BUT the letter DENIES this totally --
Doug disagrees in a response to david on a.r.e. and found in his book on pg
246
Doug says:
"David, I don't see them denying there was any Kirpal/Twitchell connection.
It certainly isn't clear to me that this is what they are saying. ... we are
talking opinions here and not facts."
OK, my opinion is that the leter is a *unstated* denial and not an overt
one, which was defintiely possible to have been written into the letter - in
words.
But the subtlety in all these a.r.e. discussions is the actual semantics and
choice of words in the moment ... blah blah on a.r.e.
What Doug was relying to was David couching his ideas in this vien .. "they
clearly deny any Kirpal/Twitchell connection"
To wit Doug, i don't see that -- but this surely is one of semantics of the
two users here, and the *intent* -- are we just playing word games here -
and being overly pendantic about the choice of words [ the trees ] to a
point that we are losing sight of the forest itself.
I see it this way -- David wrote a letter enquiring about the official
position in regards Paul recieving an Initiation from Kirpal as well his
more broader point which stated "showing that the founder of Eckankar
Movement was very definitely associated with a guru by the name Kirpal
Singh"
THAT is the context of the question and the framework of the more specific
issue about Initiations....
David did NOT ask about the ECK Initiations that Paul may have recived, nor
about any other master or lineage BUT Kirpal Singh as an individual .. but
the CONNECTION word is obviously implied ... so later this is how David
addressed his coments back to Doug ... and Doug then does not agree.
The way I see it ... David was asking was there any "association" between
the too .. the reply said Paul had to write letters to Kirpal complaining
about things the RSSB were claiming about Paul himself.
No other association, nor connection is stated, nor implied .. and everyone
knows that many knew about Paul's 'association/connection' with Kirpal,
there are photos even.
Did BB, outline the extent of Paul's actual associations with Kirpal? NO.
Is that a denial of the matters raised by david? Yes .. if only unstated, if
only avoided, if only ignored entirely it is still a DENIAL from where David
was sitting when he read the letter, and if I was in David's shoes, and sent
what he sent to Eckankar at that time, I could not possibly see it any other
way, but a clear official denial.
A denial that could well have been expected to end up in the Paper David
told them he was in the process of writing.
I do not see any need to suggest any doubt about this --- BB & darwin may
well have not been aware of these matters about Paul's Initiation in
Kirpal's group, and the many letters written, and now we ebven have Paul's
letter of the July 1957 where Paul is speaking intimately about Kirpal to a
fellow satsangi.
What's the point?
Had David received a different response, a more complete response of which
those who have been around Doug's and others work on this historical issue
would know by now -- would have panned out differently in some respects.
I am wondering what kind of response would another David Lane v2009 letter
receive as an Official position today?
How much different to the 1978 one would it be .. ???
=========================
What's relatively new to me [ or I had forgotten ] about this response to
David from ECKANKAR, was the aspect about Paul [ via Gail info to BB ]
saying that Kirpal and/or others had been "faking paul's signature on many
documents"
BB's letter to David lane is on pg 244 of TWT
I'm wondering about this - I have heard about this in some way before --
can't recall the details, but it sounded like gossip/myth to me - so seeing
it in this letter and that BB had personally seen a letter penned from Paul
saying this and this is what she based her response upon [ also Darwin
obviously ] ---
Didn't David say that he saw Paul's file in Beas India with his own eyes ...
and that they also gave him copies of these?
Did David ever get around to scanning said docs, and posting them -- or does
anyone know what is David's position on this now ... does he have these
docs, or not??
===
Nanak, Kirpal, Sudar [Sufi], Paul, & RSSB
Quote from the BB letter via TWT pg 245
Guru Nanak druing the 15th century, wrote in his book the JAP JI of
ECKANKAR. He had received his second initiation in ECKANKAR through Rebazar
Tarzs.
Various groups have taken material from Guru Nanak and formed their own
organisations around it but didn't use the word ECKANKAR, and using the
Light and Sound principle and limited to the first three levels of heaven.
In his tape entitled "Names Places and Sounds in the Discourses"
"Sudar Singh was the first teacher under whom I studied. He was a Sufi but
he was teaching a sort of splinter group of the ECKANKAR study because he'd
left Sufism and gone somewhere in to this and he had a little monastery or
little Abbott, Abbey, up above Allahabad India. "
In the same tape Paul continues :
"Guru Nanak became the founder of the Sikh Order. Sawan Singh claimed to
become the follower in the same line of masters, and also Chran Singh who
was a nephew of Sawan Singh, but neither one are masters because the
mastership of this line stopped at Sawan Singh."
end quote
=====
Sean
kirpal not sawan .. see CAPS
>
> In the same tape Paul continues :
> "Guru Nanak became the founder of the Sikh Order. KIRPAL SINGH claimed to
> become the follower in the same line of masters, and also Charan Singh who
Etznab
Sean
On Nov 16, 1:23 am, "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote:
What's the point?
> Had David received a different response, a more complete response of which
> those who have been around Doug's and others work on this historical issue
> would know by now -- would have panned out differently in some respects.
>
> I am wondering what kind of response would another David Lane v2009 letter
> receive as an Official position today?
>
> How much different to the 1978 one would it be .. ???
>
snip
>
> Nanak, Kirpal, Sudar [Sufi], Paul, & RSSB
>
> Quote from the BB letter via TWT pg 245
>
> Guru Nanak druing the 15th century, wrote in his book the JAP JI of
> ECKANKAR. He had received his second initiation in ECKANKAR through
> Rebazar
> Tarzs.
>
Funny isn't it? This letter was written in 1978.
During my first month here on a.r.e., circa 1997, when after seeing the
nature of the comments by detractors and eckists here about Eckankar's
historical roots .. I did some searching and soon came across Guru Nanak and
his using the words EK Onkar, and Ekankar [ no 'c' ]
I considered what I found online against what Eckankar books and discourses
I had read at that time, in particular Paul's specific writings about the
teachings of ECK [ his word for for the primal Life Force/Spiritual
Power/Creative force/Spirit of the Universe ] and how it was THIS that had
inspired every single Religion and Spiritual path on earth since the year
Dot.
Yet when I posted this info about Gurua Nanak in 1997, and entire 19 years
and two Masters post 1978, the response from the then Eckists here was -
NOPE nothing like ECKANKAR ... NO Connection .... NO Relation ... NO
association.
This was my first lesson in the nature of fixed reactionary mindsets as
found on a.r.e.
Some of the Eckists in 1997, are still posting to this group today.
Personally , I have never ever seen any of them ever reverse their 1997
opinions about Guru Nanak visa vi modern Eckankar, that is not to say they
don't see it differenly, only that I have no knowledge of any shift in their
POV about this.
It's now 2009 - 31 years since the Official response from Eckankar to David
lane ... and still I wonder how many Eckists on Earth would have an inkling
that it was said that Rebazar Tarzs gave Guru Nanak his 2nd Initiation?
Or that it was acknowledged that he too, Guru Nanak used the term
ECKANKAR -- a C or no C appears to be irrelevant [ as I think it should be
irrelevant as IT is the very same thing ]
That does NOT necessarily mean that Sikhism and Eckankar are the same
"religions" or teach exactly the same thing today.
====
Guru Nanak born (15 April 1469 -22 September 1539) in the village of Rai
Bhoi di Talwandi, now called Nankana Sahib, near Lahore, Pakistan
or born 3rd November 1469 - which is recorded on this same wiki page [ how
weird is that?]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Nanak_Dev
According to Paul Twitchell .. as quoted here recently on a.r.e., Rebazar
Tarzs was born in 1461.
The wiki page states :
Sikh tradition states that around c. 1499, at the age of thirty, Guru Nanak
went missing and was presumed to have drowned after going for one of his
morning baths to a local stream called the Kali Bein. One day, he declared:
"There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" (in Punjabi, "na koi hindu na koi
musalman").[10][11] It was from this moment that Guru Nanak would begin to
spread the teachings of what was then the beginning of Sikhism.
Therefore one could presume that Rebazar Tarzs was about 38 years old at
this time.
One could also assume that by the time Guru Nanak started teaching his
spiritual path, that he would have had enough personal and direct expereince
to be capable of doing so reasonably weel, also given his teaching
flourished, one could presume he did a very good job at teaching his new
path .... given that both Muslims and Hindus were drawn to it speaks highly
of Guru Nanak's abilities and leadership.
The as yet overlooked enquiry seems to be ---- then who was ity that gave
Rebazar tarzs HIS second Initiation or higher , that placed him a position
to be able to hold the authority and power to Initiate Nanak -- say some
time before 1499, which would probably be a reasonable presumption to
maintain the validity of the historical story?
If Rebazar Tazrs was 38 in 1499 ..... and also recalling that Rebazar Tarzs
was also reported by Paul T to have been guiding Christopher Columbus before
and during his voyage to the Amercias of 1492, which then places RT at about
a mere 31 years old, would seem to indicate that RT must have received his
2nd some years before he was giving guidance to Columbus .. wouldn't you
think?
But who was it that gave RT his 2nd in the ophyscal plane ... who was the
Living ECK Master [ ignore the word terms , think the inner ECK authority ]
of the day that initiated him?
Many have denied it was Kabir .. and yet Paul T has also said that Kabir was
teaching a form of Eckankar .. didn't he??? Let's check shall we?
ECKANKAR DICTIONARY
Kabir - the Hindu poet-mystic in the 16th Century as the first of the ECK
Masters to bring the ECK mysteries out into the open and for this was
hounded by both his adversaries and the followers of Soul Travel. - end
quote
Kabir (also Kabira) (Hindi: ????, Punjabi: ????, Urdu: ????? (1440-1518)[1]
was a mystic composer and saint of India, whose literature has greatly
influenced the Bhakti movement of India.
[[ another I saw said "Kabir, Mystic Philosopher, 1398-1518 = 120 years
old !!!! That 120 comes up alot for these spiritual teachers of long ago -
see the Bhakti saint from Assam Mahapurusha
Srimanta Sankaradeva (1449-1568) = 120 years also. ]]
Kabir was raised by childless weavers named Niru and Nimma (it is disputed
whether they were Muslim or Hindu), who found him near Lahara Tara Lake,
adjacent to the holy city of Varanasi.[3] But his birth is surrounded by
legends. The most popular belief is that being the supreme power, he
appeared in form of a baby. He was never "born" as such.
A weaver by profession, Kabir ranks among the world's greatest poets. In
India, he is perhaps the most quoted author. The holy book of the Sikhs the
Guru Granth Sahib contains over 500 verses by Kabir. The Sikh community
refers to Kabir as a Bhagat, while others who hold the Granth in high
reverence call him a Guru.
Kabir openly criticized all sects and gave a new direction to Indian
philosophy. This is due to his straight forward approach that has a
universal appeal. It is for this reason that Kabir is held in high esteem
all over the world. To call Kabir a universal Guru is not an exaggeration.
He was a Bhakti saint, who sang the ideals of seeing all of humanity as one,
his name, Kabir, is often interpreted as Guru's Grace. He kept himself away
from the fundamentalism of all the religions and explained the root
philosophies of spirituality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
Notice BHAKTI movement of Hinduism again ... and again and yet again ...
Therefore using the 1440 year of Birth -- and recalling that all these YEARS
noted in History can be taken with a grain of salt sometimes and not relied
upon without knowing the basis for a Year ---- Kabir was 29 years old when
Guru Nanak was born, and he was about 21 years of age at the time Paul T
claims Rebazar Tarzs was born.
In 1499 Kabir was then 59 years old ...... the time that Guru Nanak started
teaching.
Nanak included many of Kabir's poems and writings in the Sikh bible the
Guru Granth.
Kabir did not classify himself as Hindu or Muslim, Sufi or Bhakta. The
legends surrounding his lifetime attest to his strong aversion to
established religions.
So thorough-going is Kab�r's eclecticism, that he seems by turns Ved�ntist
and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist, Brahmin and S�f�. In the
effort to tell the truth about that ineffable apprehension, so vast and yet
so near, which controls his life, he seizes and twines together-as he might
have woven together contrasting threads upon his loom-symbols and ideas
drawn from the most violent and conflicting philosophies and faiths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
end quote
Besides BHAKI ... we also have Kabir inspiring the entire Sant Mat teachings
which end up going all the way down to Babuji [ mentioned recently in
reagrds to Paul T at age 8 thru to 1949 ] and one Kirpal Singh [ being he
claims his lineage goes all the way back to Kabir and others ... and
recalling of course that ALL these teachers used the writings of their
forebears, as well as other people/teachers. ]
Kabir is recorded as having died around 1518 - give the ECK teachings that
he was an ECK Master .. I wonder who was the ECK Master that took over from
him at his death?
FROM WIKI - though there will be some better resources I am sure :::
His birth and death are surrounded by legends, as nothing certain is known
about his birth or death. He grew up in a Muslim weaver family, but some say
he was really son of a Brahmin widow and was adopted by a childless couple.
One popular legend of his death, which is even taught in schools in India
(although in more of a moral context than a historical one), says that after
his death his Muslim and Hindu devotees fought over his proper burial rites.
The problem arose since Muslim custom called for the burial of their dead,
whereas Hindus cremated their dead. The scene is depicted as two groups
fighting around his coffin one claiming that Kabir was a Hindu, and the
other claiming that Kabir was a Muslim. However, when they finally open
Kabir's coffin, they found the body missing. Instead there was a small book
in which the Hindus and Muslims wrote all his sayings that they could
remember; some even say a bunch of his favourite flowers were placed. The
legend goes on to state that the fighting was resolved, and both groups
looked upon the miracle as an act of divine intervention. In Maghar, his
tomb or Dargah and Samadhi Mandir still stand side by side.
END QUOTE
Well, I wonder if he was actually dead .. or merely appeared so. I wonder if
indeed his coffin was found empty - without a Body? I have heard that a
Satguru, and/or an ECK Master can appear to do some amazing things.
from wiki --
Kabir is associated with the Sant Mat, a loosely related group of teachers
(Sanskrit: Guru) that assumed prominence in the northern part of the Indian
sub-continent from about the 13th century. Their teachings are distinguished
theologically by inward loving devotion to a divine principle, and socially
by an egalitarianism opposed to the qualitative distinctions of the Hindu
caste hierarchy and to the religious differences betweenHindu and Muslim.[4]
The sants were not homogeneous, consisting mostly of these sants'
presentation of socio-religious attitudes based on bhakti (devotion) as
described earlier in the Bhagavad Gita.
[5] Sharing as few conventions with each other as with the followers of the
traditions they challenged, the sants appear more as a diverse collection of
spiritual personalities than a specific religious tradition, although they
acknowledged a common spiritual root.[6]
The first generation of north Indian sants, (which included Kabir), appeared
in the region of Benares in the mid 15th century.
Preceding them were two notable 13th and 14th century figures, Namdev and
Ramananda. The latter, a Vaishnava ascetic, initiated Kabir, Ravidas, and
other sants, according to tradition. Ramananda's story is told differently
by his lineage of "Ramanandi" monks, by other Sants preceding him, and later
by the Guru Nanak and subsequent Sikh Gurus. What is known is that Ramananda
accepted students of all castes, a fact that was contested by the orthodox
Hindus of that time, and that his students formed the first generation of
Sants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
Varanasi (Sanskrit: ??????? Vara?asi, Hindustani pronunciation:
[?a?'?a???si?] ( listen)), also commonly known as Benares or Banaras
(Hindi: ?????, Urdu: ?????, Banaras [b?'n????s] ( listen)) and Kashi (Hindi:
????, Urdu: ????, Kasi ['ka??i?] ( listen)), is a city situated on the left
(west) bank of the River Ganga (Ganges) in the Indian state of Uttar
Pradesh, regarded as holy by Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains. It is one of the
oldest continually inhabited cities in the world.[3][4]
The city has been a cultural and religious centre innorthern India for
several thousand years. The Benares Gharana form of Indian classical
musicdeveloped in Varanasi, and many prominent Indian philosophers, poets,
writers, and musicians resided or reside in Varanasi, including Kabir,
Ravidas Their Guru Swami Ramanand, Trailanga Swami, Munshi Premchand,
Jaishankar Prasad, Acharya Ram Chandra Shukla, Ravi Shankar,Girija Devi,
Hariprasad Chaurasia, and Bismillah Khan. Tulsidas wrote his
Ramacharitamanasthere, and Gautama Buddha gave his first sermon at Sarnath
near Kashi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benares
Allahabad is barely 100 miles west of Benares, btw.
And Agra is about 300 miles north-west of Allahabad.
IMAGES of drawings and paintings of Kabir online
http://images.google.com.au/images?rlz=1C1CHMI_en-USAU293AU305&sourceid=chrome&q=kabir&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
> Various groups have taken material from Guru Nanak and formed their own
> organisations around it but didn't use the word ECKANKAR, and using the
> Light and Sound principle and limited to the first three levels of heaven.
>
> In his tape entitled "Names Places and Sounds in the Discourses"
>
> "Sudar Singh was the first teacher under whom I studied. He was a Sufi but
> he was teaching a sort of splinter group of the ECKANKAR study because
> he'd
> left Sufism and gone somewhere in to this and he had a little monastery or
> little Abbott, Abbey, up above Allahabad India. "
>
text correction
> In the same tape Paul continues :
> "Guru Nanak became the founder of the Sikh Order. KIRPAL SINGH claimed to
> become the follower in the same line of masters, and also Chran Singh who
> was a nephew of Sawan Singh, but neither one are masters because the
> mastership of this line stopped at Sawan Singh."
>
> end quote
> =====
Sean,
You raised some good points there. IMO.
Etznab
=====
Was it something I said?
<smile>
Sean
Sean
practiced in three ways:
a.. Naam Japna: Chanting the Holy Name and thus remembering God at all
times (ceaseless devotion to God)
b.. Kirat Karo: Earning/making a living honestly, without exploitation or
fraud (telling the truth)
c.. Va?? Chakko: Sharing with others, helping those with less who are in
need (sava)
Guru Nanak put the greatest emphasis on the worship of the Word of God (Naam
Japna) [18]. One should follow the direction of awakened individuals
(Gurmukh or God willed) rather than the mind (state of Manmukh- being led by
Self will)- the latter being perilous and leading only to frustration.
Reforms that occurred in the wake of Guru Nanak's teachings included:
devotion being open to all castes; women not to be marginalized from its
institutions; and both Godhead and Devotion transcending any religious
consideration or divide; as God is not separate from any individual.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanak#Teachings
Despite legend that claims Kabir met with Guru Nanak, their lifespans do not
overlap in time.[11] The presence of much of his verse in Sikh scripture and
the fact that Kabir was a predecessor of Nanak has led some western scholars
to mistakenly describe him as a forerunner of Sikhism.[11]
HUH?? Lifetimes don't overlap ???? what's with that claim/paragraph ???
Guru Nanak born 1469 - 1539
Kabir, Mystic Philosopher, 1398-1518 OR 1440-1518
==========
According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual principles.
One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the other is God (Paramatma). It is
Kabir's view that salvation is the process of bringing into union these two
divine principles. The social and practical manifestation of Kabir's
philosophy has rung through the ages.[10].
His greatest work is the Bijak (the "Seedling"), an idea of the fundamental
one. This collection of poems demonstrates Kabir's own universal view of
spirituality. His vocabulary is replete with ideas regarding Brahman and
Hindu ideas of karma and reincarnation. His Hindi was avernacular,
straightforward kind, much like his philosophies. He often advocated leaving
aside the Qur'an and Vedas and to simply follow Sahajapath, or the
Simple/Natural Way to oneness in God. He believed in the Vedantic concept of
atman, but unlike earlier orthodox Vedantins, he followed this philosophy to
its logical end by spurning the Hindu societal caste system and worship of
murti, showing clear belief in both bhaktiand sufi ideas. The major part of
Kabir's work as a bhagat was collected by the fifth Sikh guru, Guru Arjan
Dev, and forms a part of the Sikhscripture Guru Granth Sahib.
While many ideas reign as to who his living influences were, the only Guru
of whom he ever spoke was Satguru. Kabir never made a mention of any human
guru in his life or verses, the only reference found in his verses is of God
as Satguru.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagat_Kabir
fwiw
THX
Sean
Kabir was born in 1398, lived as a weaver and died in 1518.
According to some he was initiated by Ramanand Swami, a famous Hindu Guru
and community leader at that time.
Using very poignant language, Kabir criticized caste ideology and declared
the equality of all human beings.
He employed a Socratic method of teaching, pleading with all human beings
regardless of their gender, status, caste, color, race, religion or
occupation to think critically about their lives and pursuits and the
salvation of their soul.
He "spoke Truth to power", confronting the most vicious of the Moghul rulers
as well as the Hindu Kings and sages of the time and was fearless and
relentless in his pursuit of the salvation of humanity at large.
Kabir was an oral poet whose works were written down by others. His lyrics
have flourished for more than 500 years
Kabir Panthis can follow the ethical and social customs of the day according
to tradition without hindrance.
Kabir panthis are required to observe sanctity and purity in their daily
lives and behavior. The foundation of their belief and practice is Truth or
Sat, an all encompassing formula for Love, Humility, Compassion and Unity.
Kabir panthi priests are called Mahants. God is commonly called "Sat
Purush", "sat sahib" or "kabir sahib". Good behavior and meditation on the
purest aspect of Godare the methods of finding fulfillment in life. All
burdens of body and mind derive from not following this simple Truth.
Although Kabir panthis can be of any religion, most of them claim to be
Vaishnava.[3] This is because Kabirdas (servant [of God] Kabir) was a
devotee of Lord Rama[4]
== RAMA The first Living ECK Master Mahanta, according to the Shariyat
Books - [ this is important because the Hindu following of RAMA is what
predominates in the Bhakti Movement [ if I recall that properly ]
The main chant or Simran of the Kabirpanthi religion is Sant Kabir Ji. Param
Pujania Swami Kabirsahabji Maharaj = Response: Sant Kabir ji Mera Shat Shat
Namaskar hai !! In The island republic of Trinidad & Tobago as well as
across the United States and Canada, the Simran of Kabir Panthis is Sat Naam
or Satya Naam. In meditation some may use Soaham or Sohang and Sat Naam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabirpanthi
=============================
Video about the Holy Bijak of Kabir Panth
http://www.kewego.co.uk/video/iLyROoafY7Aq.html
Full text of "The Bijak of Kabir; translated into English"
http://www.archive.org/stream/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft_djvu.txt
The Bijak of Kabir is written mostly in the Hindi of the
Mirzupuri dialect, though some of the hymns show traces
also ci the < .'orakhpuri dialect, which is due, perhaps, to the
fact that Kabir spent his last days in Maghar in the Gorakh-
pur district.
1 have seen several manuscripts of the Bijak, all written
in the Kaitiii character with the words not separated.
Among these manuscripts, some were quite complete,
agreeing with the arrangement of the Raja of Rewah's edi-
tion, but without any commentary ; some had only a portion
of the Bijak.
The oldest printed edition of the Bijak is dated 1868, and
was printed at Benares, but it contains only the following
portions of the book :
Ad Mangal, 84 Ramainis, 12Kahras, 12 Basants, Ohauntisi,
2 Belis, 2 Ohancharis, 3 Hindolas, Birhuli, 383 Sakhis. To these
hymns a commentary is added which is said to have been
ted b\ Kabir Sahib to the Raja of Bhagel Banslia. In
the frontispiece tiie Raja and Kabir are seated face to face:
Kal>ii is xplaining the Bijak and the Raja is listening
The commentary in this edition is on the basis
of what is called SMJ/IU/ H/XI.SW/, the belief in the incarnate
Guru. ==========sample 0 RAMAINIS
5. There is one name infinite and fathomless :
there, O Kabir, the servant is firmly established.
6. Sakhi : Where ant cannot climb, nor mustard seed
rest.
Where coming and going can get no hold, thither let
the whole world go.
35
1. Pandits have gone astray reading and studying the
Vedas :
they do not know the secret of their own selves.
2. Their evening and morning prayers, their six l modes of
worship :
and many things like these they consider virtuous
deeds.
3. They made the Gayatri to be recited in all four ages :
go and ask them who has thus found salvation.
4. If touched by another you wash your body :
but tell me, who is meaner than you ?
5. These are your good deeds, yet you are consumed with
pride :
from such pride no one will derive any benefit.
6. He whose name is the breaker of pride :
How can He tolerate your pride ?
7. Sakhi : They who give up pride of race and attachment
and search for the word alone,
Renouncing the shoot and seed of all desire, these men
become freed from body and from space.
http://www.archive.org/stream/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft_djvu.txt
THX
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4b021634$0$5425$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sean
Bijak of Kabir - 1911 Hindi version Translated to English in 1917
http://ia350637.us.archive.org/1/items/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft/bijakofkabirtran00kabiuoft.pdf
"Sean" <he...@home.net> wrote in message
news:4b021634$0$5425$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Kinpa
> "Etznab" <etz...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f6bfccdf-e87f-4e4b...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 16, 1:23 am, "Sean" <h...@home.net> wrote:
>
> What's the point?
>
> > Had David received a different response, a more complete response of which
> > those who have been around Doug's and others work on this historical issue
> > would know by now -- would have panned out differently in some respects.
>
> > I am wondering what kind of response would another David Lane v2009 letter
> > receive as an Official position today?
>
> > How much different to the 1978 one would it be .. ???
>
> snip
>
>
>
> >Nanak, Kirpal, Sudar [Sufi], Paul, & RSSB
>
> > Quote from the BB letter via TWT pg 245
>
> > ECKANKAR. He had received his second initiation in ECKANKAR through
> > Rebazar
> > Tarzs.
>
> Funny isn't it? This letter was written in 1978.
>
> During my first month here on a.r.e., circa 1997, when after seeing the
> nature of the comments by detractors and eckists here about Eckankar's
> historical roots .. I did some searching and soon came acrossGuruNanakand
> his using the words EK Onkar, and Ekankar [ no 'c' ]
>
> I considered what I found online against what Eckankar books and discourses
> I had read at that time, in particular Paul's specific writings about the
> teachings of ECK [ his word for for the primal Life Force/Spiritual
> Power/Creative force/Spirit of the Universe ] and how it was THIS that had
> inspired every single Religion and Spiritual path on earth since the year
> Dot.
>
> and two Masters post 1978, the response from the then Eckists here was -
> NOPE nothing like ECKANKAR ... NO Connection .... NO Relation ... NO
> association.
>
> This was my first lesson in the nature of fixed reactionary mindsets as
> found on a.r.e.
>
> Some of the Eckists in 1997, are still posting to this group today.
> Personally , I have never ever seen any of them ever reverse their 1997
> don't see it differenly, only that I have no knowledge of any shift in their
> POV about this.
>
> It's now 2009 - 31 years since the Official response from Eckankar to David
> lane ... and still I wonder how many Eckists on Earth would have an inkling
>
> Or that it was acknowledged that he too,GuruNanakused the term
> ECKANKAR -- a C or no C appears to be irrelevant [ as I think it should be
> irrelevant as IT is the very same thing ]
>
> That does NOT necessarily mean that Sikhism and Eckankar are the same
> "religions" or teach exactly the same thing today.
>
> ====
>
> Bhoi di Talwandi, now called Nankana Sahib, near Lahore, Pakistan
>
> or born 3rd November 1469 - which is recorded on this same wiki page [ how
> weird is that?]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Nanak_Dev
>
> According to Paul Twitchell .. as quoted here recently on a.r.e., Rebazar
> Tarzs was born in 1461.
>
> The wiki page states :
> Sikh tradition states that around c. 1499, at the age of thirty,GuruNanak
> went missing and was presumed to have drowned after going for one of his
> morning baths to a local stream called the Kali Bein. One day, he declared:
> "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" (in Punjabi, "na koi hindu na koi
> spread the teachings of what was then the beginning of Sikhism.
>
> Therefore one could presume that Rebazar Tarzs was about 38 years old at
> this time.
>
> spiritual path, that he would have had enough personal and direct expereince
> to be capable of doing so reasonably weel, also given his teaching
> flourished, one could presume he did a very good job at teaching his new
> path .... given that both Muslims and Hindus were drawn to it speaks highly
>
> The as yet overlooked enquiry seems to be ---- then who was ity that gave
> Rebazar tarzs HIS second Initiation or higher , that placed him a position
> refers to Kabir as a Bhagat, while others who hold the Granth in high
> reverence call him aGuru.
>
> Kabir openly criticized all sects and gave a new direction to Indian
> philosophy. This is due to his straight forward approach that has a
> universal appeal. It is for this reason that Kabir is held in high esteem
>
> He was a Bhakti saint, who sang the ideals of seeing all of humanity as one,
> from the fundamentalism of all the religions and explained the root
> philosophies of spirituality.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
>
> Notice BHAKTI movement of Hinduism again ... and again and yet again ...
>
> Therefore using the 1440 year of Birth -- and recalling that all these YEARS
> noted in History can be taken with a grain of salt sometimes and not relied
> claims Rebazar Tarzs was born.
>
> In 1499 Kabir was then 59 years old ...... the time thatGuruNanakstarted
> teaching.
>
>
> Kabir did not classify himself as Hindu or Muslim, Sufi or Bhakta. The
> legends surrounding his lifetime attest to his strong aversion to
> established religions.
>
> and Vaishnavite, Pantheist and Transcendentalist, Brahmin and Sûfî. In the
> effort to tell the truth about that ineffable apprehension, so vast and yet
> so near, which controls his life, he seizes and twines together-as he might
> have woven together contrasting threads upon his loom-symbols and ideas
> accepted students of all castes, a fact that was contested by the orthodox
> Hindus of that time, and that his students formed the first generation of
> Sants.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
>
> Varanasi (Sanskrit: ??????? Vara?asi, Hindustani pronunciation:
> [?a?'?a???si?] ( listen)), also commonly known as Benares or Banaras
> (Hindi: ?????, Urdu: ?????, Banaras [b?'n????s] ( listen)) and Kashi (Hindi:
> ????, Urdu: ????, Kasi ['ka??i?] ( listen)), is a city situated on the left
> (west) bank of the River Ganga (Ganges) in the Indian state of Uttar
> Pradesh, regarded as holy by Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains. It is one of the
> oldest continually inhabited cities in the world.[3][4]
>
> The city has been a cultural and religious centre innorthern India for
> several thousand years. The Benares Gharana form of Indian classical
> musicdeveloped in Varanasi, and many prominent Indian philosophers, poets,
> writers, and musicians resided or reside in Varanasi, including Kabir,
> Jaishankar Prasad, Acharya Ram Chandra Shukla, Ravi Shankar,Girija Devi,
> Hariprasad Chaurasia, and Bismillah Khan. Tulsidas wrote his
> Ramacharitamanasthere, and Gautama Buddha gave his first sermon at Sarnath
>
> Allahabad is barely 100 miles west of Benares, btw.
>
> And Agra is about 300 miles north-west of Allahabad.
>
>
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/ygeymqs
>
> > Various groups have taken material fromGuruNanakand formed their own
> > organisations around it but didn't use the word ECKANKAR, and using the
> > Light and Sound principle and limited to the first three levels of heaven.
>
> > In his tape entitled "Names Places and Sounds in the Discourses"
>
> > "Sudar Singh was the first teacher under whom I studied. He was a Sufi but
> > he was teaching a sort of splinter group of the ECKANKAR study because
> > he'd
> > left Sufism and gone somewhere in to this and he had a little monastery or
> > little Abbott, Abbey, up above Allahabad India. "
>
> text correction
>
> > In the same tape Paul continues :
> > become the follower in the same line of masters, and also Chran Singh who
> > was a nephew of Sawan Singh, but neither one are masters because the
> > mastership of this line stopped at Sawan Singh."
>
> > end quote
> > =====
>
> Sean,
>
> You raised some good points there. IMO.
>
> Etznab
>
> =====
>
> Was it something I said?
> <smile>
>
> Sean
>
> MB5!.1PT*&@H````-24A$4@````T````-" 8```!RZ^1\````!F)+1T0`_P#_
> M`/^@O:>3````!W1)344'V0L$%BHL1$\^" ```2E)1$%4*)'%C[%*'&$4A;\S
> M64$7,CMWII-A&<$B+["20C"MA=6FL!0+7\%G2),4`8NT`?,2:6TT)*4OL.""
> MA-4TD@WSGS2C:!:WS2GOO>>>\\%_U6 PV(@(EV7Y^GX6$9^+HG@#D/UKJ*IJ
> M2]*Y[=^V>YWA-,NRCY(^`%)1%(VD(TGSE%(M:0P4P$_;;R6-)+5 8?N5I/<]
> M2;NVCX%,TI/4[OA TCBE]$72B>V=K%O.G\$S< ;40&Y[*FD]`["]P/9(P[9M
> MKX$_P$O@-I/T0]+4]G=)5\"OAQA[!9A+JH$+25LII6\+;R/B.")N(N(V(K8!
> MRK+\6E75*"(NZ[I>6Z@UF\W>V3[ &'H`_7Y_KVW;?4F?)I/)W;,@>9YO-DVS
> ?^JC!$'BQA'VY_@)NU6'X??03E ````!)14Y$KD)@@@``
> `
> end
Nanak gives credit to Rebazar...
Santim Vah
Hey, it's not even 2 months since I posted this series of posts on
this thread. Man, how time flies. I had to read it all again myself to
get myself back up to speed as to what this post was all about. Feels
like I could have written this several years ago so much has unfolded
since then on several topics. sheesh! :_
Kinpa said
> Nanak gives credit to Rebazar...
I know ...
and that's not all I know .. :)
Kinpa
me either...i wasnt expecting Nanak to show up, but he did, so we
spoke for a bit...interesting that...
Santim Vah
Confirmations are always welcomed with gratitude and an open heart and
mind.
Disagreements and confronting challenges are as likewise always
welcomed too. :)
Kinpa
Etznab
Nanak gives credit to Rebazar Tarzs?
How does Paul Twitchell saying that Rebazar Tarzs gave
Nanak the second initiation turn into Nanak gives credit to
Rebazar Tarzs?
Is their a quote in Nanak's words? In Japji, or something,
that mentions Rebazar Tarzs?
Etznab
Kinpa
PT saying anything doesnt turn into anything else, PT reported the
truth...
the trouble is, are you looking for proofs from books, otherwise
there is no proof?outer proof perhaps, but there is also no outer
proof that anyone can even remotely have a true spiritual experience
or realization either... ill tell you exactly how i came by this
information, i asked him personally about Rebazar giving him the
2nd...he answered and actually, what was a bit different, he made it
clear that he WASNT a Master YET, though i will say he is not without
a degree of wisdom greater than many possess...he saw some things that
needed help in my life, and having the time to try to give help(his
explanation as to why it was him and not any other), he came(as far as
i can tell, Masters find themselves quite busy giving lessons, more
than once one has come for a reason, but had to depart to administer
other lessons to others)...i did not ask for him, and certainly didnt
expect him, of all souls, by any means....he made several comments
about the misuse of books as well...because i asked him what was up
with the Sikhs, using a book as a Guru...he mentioned that many try to
use writings as a way of cheating, not wanting to do the work
necessary to attain Mastership, he mentioned that this is happening in
all religions around the earth, people using knowledge and words to
trick others into believing they had wisdom and experience...i wasnt
able to disagree with that...this is why i so often ask what can be
gained from putting so much importance into a book, rather than
seeking the actual experience for one's self, or at the least, asking
the specific soul about the reasons for faulty writings...personally,
i have NO question that he and Rebazar are completely different
individuals ( i thought i had seen a post in the past by you,
wondering if PT was creating a name for another well known person,
these being the two, and if you didnt, i have certainly seen others
claim this very thing)...to my knowledge there is no mention of
Rebazar in any of Nanak's written words...
Etznab
"[....] i did not ask for him, and certainly didnt expect him,
of all souls, by any means....he made several comments
about the misuse of books as well...because i asked him
what was up with the Sikhs, using a book as a Guru...he
mentioned that many try to use writings as a way of cheating,
not wanting to do the work necessary to attain Mastership,
he mentioned that this is happening in all religions around
the earth, people using knowledge and words to trick others
into believing they had wisdom and experience...i wasnt
able to disagree with that...this is why i so often ask what
can be gained from putting so much importance into a book,
rather than seeking the actual experience for one's self, or
at the least, asking the specific soul about the reasons for
faulty writings...personally, i have NO question that he and
Rebazar are completely different individuals ( i thought i had
seen a post in the past by you, wondering if PT was creating
a name for another well known person, these being the two,
and if you didnt, i have certainly seen others claim this very
thing)...to my knowledge there is no mention of Rebazar in
any of Nanak's written words..."
Kinpa,
I don't see how Rebazar Tarzs could be Nanak since the
Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs was / is reported to be living
subsequent to Nanak's death. I, too, think that Rebazar
and Nanak are different.
Michael Turner once wrote about the subject of Rebazar
Tarzs and Guru Nanak. I believe.
There were some good points in your post. I thought.
It doesn't so much matter to me who / what really brought
to your attention some of those points - in order for me to
believe it - but I agree with them.
"[....] he mentioned that many try to use writings as a way
of cheating, not wanting to do the work necessary to attain
Mastership, he mentioned that this is happening in all relig-
ions around the earth, people using knowledge and words
to trick others into believing they had wisdom and experience..."
I agree with that.
Sometimes though, I think religions use existing material
including recorded history and quotes by others. Whether
or not the history is true and whether or not quotes were
actually written / said in the illustrated forms shown.
Paul Twitchell gave out a lot of stuff. I think some of it was
recorded history and what others reportedly said. There are
instances even where it appears the source was changed
to the name of another being. The teachings are good food
for thought, IMO, no matter what the source. No matter if
illustrated forms existing now are in the same form and the
same language as originally.
It was The Flute of God and The Far Country that I found
in the library many years ago and was glad to have read
them. Of all religions & spiritual paths in my encounters,
as a whole I like Eckankar best. For many reasons. This
is what I prefer. This was the name of the religion I chose
to follow / explore many years ago. Even to belong to as
a member. I haven't changed my mind in over 20 years. I
still like Eckankar the best.
There was a lot of controversy years ago about many
things pertaining to written / spoken Eckankar history. A
number of books and even discussion groups going over
much of it. I think countless individuals have speculated
& given opinions based on their own personal experience.
Not always will everybody agree.
I was already deep into compiling history before looking
for the first time at much of what people were going over
about Eckankar. I wanted to look at what was getting a
lot of attention. What were the questions and what were
the things people wanted to find information about. Time
was / is the one constant I like to use for looking at the
context of recorded history. I like to try and find the time
and date for each recorded event so that I can put things
into the context of when they first happened. Or when a
historical event was said to have happened.
Finding different dates for the same event suggests to
me there are reasons for this. Finding different names
for the source of written / spoken history suggests to
me there are reasons for this. I thought I was helping
by contributing my own experiences, questions and re-
search. However, now I am feeling it might be better to
keep much of it to myself. Or, if I do comment, to make
it expressly clear when something is more of an opinion
instead of proven fact. I've tried to do so in the past, yet
I believe a number of my questions in the past were in
a number of instances equated with what I believe, as if
I was stating what I thought was true. If that were the
case, however, I would not need questions marks and
IMO's.
Perhaps I will fade into the background. Write less than
has been my habit in the past. Sit back & mostly watch
the discussions. Take notes of what new facts do turn
up. And - if I can do it so as not to offend anybody way
too much - comment and share from time to time.
Etznab
No time to check for typos this post. Have to go for now.
Etznab
Kinpa
i apologize if i had your line of questioning associated wrongly...
i was using memory but couldnt be sure i was making the proper
associations, so that was why i said it the way i did...i have seen
many others make assumptions as to why the dates differ, or stories
or any of the other things that come up..even though it may sound
otherwise, i DO completely understand your reasons for interest
in the subject. you actually havent offended me, i apologize
if i said anything that made it seem as if you did,that was
never my intent.
Baraka Bashad