What's in a name: Kal Niranjan
Etznab
Wikipedia didn't appear to have a page
for history about Kal Niranjan. Even my
Sanskrit dictionary link didn't. So I went
to check baby names for Niranjan. The
meanings include: "spotless; pure" and
"Form of: Niranjana". It also said "Variant
transcription of the Sanskrit Nirañjana.
A name of Lord Shiva.
http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Niranjan.html
Another reference about Niranjana has:
My name Niranjana means “free from false-
hood” in Sanskrit.
http://niranjana.wordpress.com/about/
Others seem to concur:
Fifth Shabda – Kal Niranjan: Full name of the Negative
Power, often shortened to Kal (see subsection 'Kal' in
illustration to 'Indications of a Lover'). Niranjan means
'beyond illusion,' and is applied to Kal – time – because
he is the creator of illusion.
http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=26
[Curious, that last sentence there. IMO]
On another page:
As a male name, Nirañjana is pronounced
with a short final vowel 'a', and is a name of
Lord Shiva. The female variant of the name
is pronounced with a long final vowel 'a', and
is a name of the Goddess Durga, as well as
a name of the day of the full moon.
http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Niranjana.html
So I was looking to find a history for "Kal
Niranjan" and the oldest record (so far) is
mention of this name in a modern version
of Anurag Sagar, where (in one version)
the name is alalogous to Dharam Rai and
Kal. IMO.
How Niranjan – Dharam Rai – got what he
needed to develop his Universe
http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=28
A very large part of the Anurag Sagar is
addressed to Kal, who is one of the sixteen
sons of the Sat Purush or Positive Power,
as it is explained below. He was ordered to
carry the Glory of Sat Purush into the lower
creation, so that the Jivas who had been
vibrating in it, could recognise the beauty
of Sat Purush even into the last atom.
http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=17
Sant Mat, Radhasoami, Ruhani Satsang,
Eckankar and others seem to mention a
being by the name Kal Niranjan and they
also appear to connect Kabir to their own
lineage of teachings. IMO.
There is a Sikh influence, apparently, to
the story of Kal Niranjan, but if one were
to research Hindu mythology (older than
the Sikh?) similar stories appear, except
for character names & spellings.
I didn't find a Hindu baby name "kal", but
I did find something for "kala".
"The Sanskrit female name Kala (pronounced
with a long final vowel a) is also the name for
the Goddess of fine arts, and one-sixteenth of
the moon."
http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Kala.html
I should look at niranjana and see where that
leads?
The word pops up on a Wiki page about rivers,
with a variant spelling nilanjan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falgu_River
The Sanskrit dictionary has:
1 (cap) nIlAnjana n. (black) antimony.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
What is even more interesting is the variant
spelling Lilajan.
The Lilajan River (also known by its older name:
Niranjana River and also mentioned as Nilanjan
River) flows through the Chatra and Gaya districts
in the Indian states of Jharkhand and Bihar. Some
people refer to this river as the Falgu River.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilajan_River
Legend
"As Bodh Gaya is on the shores of Lilajan (Niranjana)
many legends are associated with this river concerning
Lord Buddha.[5]It is said that Lord Buddha bathed in the
nearby Niranjana (now called Lilajan) River after attaining
enlightenment.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilajan_River
There were sixteen "sons" or "shabdas" mentioned in
The Beginning according to Anurag Sagar.
http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25
And kala, the Hindu Goddess of fine arts was
said to be a name for one sixteenth of the moon? I don't
know if the "sixteen" has any connection. Just thought
to mention it though.
http://www.dlshq.org/download/lordsiva.htm
In all, perhaps this thread has succeeded at giving
some etymology for the name "Kal Niranjan". What
it (so far) appears to come down to (for me) is this
(what I consider the most interesting):
Fifth Shabda – Kal Niranjan: Full name of the Negative
Power, often shortened to Kal (see subsection 'Kal' in
illustration to 'Indications of a Lover'). Niranjan means
'beyond illusion,' and is applied to Kal – time – because
he is the creator of illusion.
http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=26
Here are the ideas of "beyond illusion" and "time" to-
gether. Or, Kal ("time") + Niranjan ("beyond illusion")
according to one person, commentator, at least. And
it is this which one story / mythology associates with
the beginning of creation in the lower worlds. Anurag
Sagar goes into more depth about this, using various
symbols & metaphors, IMO.
Does it mean that some being exists in "heaven" and
is influencing Soul along its journey toward God? Or
is it the way so many authors / writers explained the
process according to them?
For a member of one of those religions / paths ment-
ioned earlier, Kal Niranjan could become much more
real than Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny! Symbol-
ically, Kal Niranjan is similar to "Satan".
The words Niranjan and Kala appear on the chart for
the Astral Plane region here.
http://www.eckankar.org/Images/godworlds.pdf
The Eckankar Dictionary definition for Niranjan, Kal
appears underneath the definition for Niranjan, Jot.
Quoting:
Niranjan, Kal
The negative power; is not pure spirit; creates form
or the manifestations of matter; its duty is to keep
Soul in the lower worlds.
[Eckankar Dictionary, p. 106, Sith printing - 1986]
How does "niranjan(a)" = spotless, pure + "kal" =
time amount to something like that description? I
guess it means that "time" is necessarily a part of
creation. And "time" is what really serves to keep
Soul in the lower worlds. This is what I see, after
looking at all this etymology. That is, find out how
time is created and the answer to many questions
will follow.
So far, I suspect 'time" is created via repetition via
gravitational attraction. In other words, the memory
of God going over and over a particular thing makes
the Spirit of God form a mold, or matrix, whereby a
"form of God" grows in time. Likewise, I suspect a
Spirit of God both maintaining the form and, in time,
ultimately destroying it. Just like what happens to
thoughts. Here one moment and gone the next.
So it is not so much the "Niranjan" part that looks
so negative (to me), but it is the Kal ("time") part.
Consider how much "time" it takes for the average
person to reach anything like Self Realization, or
God Realization. Allegedly.
It's all because of "time"? Right? The time it takes?
Perhaps it is the "illusion" of the time it takes?
That "light" was somehow alluded to by the name
of "niranjan", I would take the ideas of "light" and
of "time" and contemplate how much does "light"
have to do with illusion? I think "light" has much to
do with illusion, or the way things appear to be. Is
this (part of) what the myths were trying show?
Etznab
Kinpa
Kal (time) Niranjan (beyond illusion ) maybe it's because the Kal is
the negative power, and therefore is not subject to the illusion he
creates, rather than him being in the spiritual worlds...he is well
aware he is not God but pretends to be so as to trap soul in the lower
worlds?
Etznab
If that's the case, I'd say Kal is not the only one well
aware they are not God, but pretend to be so. Like, I
mean, all these gurus / masters we have today. Isn't
it that some believe they can speak for God? Or that
they know things about God, about Heaven & "Inner
Worlds?
If Kal were really a being, and not some literalized
symbology that took legs, then this Kal would not
only know about the material universe (IMO), this
"Kal" would know about the creation of the whole
gamut of lower worlds. Including those places that
some people call heaven.
Personally I doubt there is a God and I doubt there
is a Kal in the form of "beings" like those living here
on Earth. Instead I imagine them more like kinds of
"energy", or "vibration" and if manifesting as beings
I believe it has more to do with the observer than it
does with the observed.
wernertrp
>
> - Zitierten Text anzeigen -
The invention of the idea of a Kal Niranjan is one of the
reasons (other reasons may also be included) to leave such
a religion as Eckankar or others Religion
immediately.
Kinpa
im sure they arent literally beings unless the observer needs to see
them this way at which time they manifest a form...
lama...@gmail.com
Etznab
I think if people really cared to know this then they would research the history of the words and not just cut and paste things from out of a book; and pretend they are authorities.
A child could plagiarize a book. Does that make them an authority?
I think not.
wernertrp
und kal-nie-ran-ran verrottet dort.
Kinpa
godzilla
> Kaal Jyoti Niranjan
...and varied combinations of the three, ie:
Jyoti Niranjan
Kaal Niranjan
or even a websearch on all 3 terms (Kaal Jyoti Niranjan ) will bear many interesting hits.
"Kal" is kind of a western corruption of "Kaal". Closer you can get to the purer contemporary translations, the more success, I think. Good luck on you journey.
_g
On Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:17:30 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
dgit...@gmail.com
Peace and pleadings
wernertrp
> Hello there is a kal,,and a God,,,it frightened the he'll out of me,,,,I been tracking those worlds for over a year and a half now,,,I can sit here and text you things that would make you dismiss this comment as a prank or someone who is joking,,,but trust me I can show you make you be able to go there too,,no drugs involved,,to see these things you first have to acquire a soul,,,we all have one but it's dormant till you awaken it,,,you can study me I have plenty of data supporting my claim in videos and I do short lectures,,,well I just help pls get a better understanding of what is hidden from them in plain sight,,,it's a fact kal,,has an illusion on us that's why we cannot perceive the whole electromagnetic spectrum,,and why animals see and hear more than we do but we're superior to them,,so are we actually born blind sleeping and deaf,,,or do we actually put ourselves in this state unconsciously,,,to further understand,,,figure out who are you,,,are you the name on your birth papers,,,no because your parents gave you that are you your body,,no,,cause it's your body,,are are you,,you thoughts,,no it's your thoughts and it's also your mind,,,so who is the your and where is you in reference to you,,,once you draw the obvious conclconclusion then you realize their is more than just a physical structure and form to you,,you have a invisible to your eye magnetic field,,also a invisible bubble,,you go into as a micro subatomic particle when you start to fall asleep it's where dreams reside,, dreams is as much an illusion as this world your experiencing,,,one resonate at a faster frequency and you cannot see it, ,but your not in your body either,,,,I can explain kal and show you him,you can check out my YouTube videos under Damean Samuels or university of conscious scuence and my face book is damean samuel
> Peace and pleadings
all is in our head(s) have Kal Niranjan two heads ?
virtual reality is in our head(s).
Tisra Til
God Brahm (ब्रह्म) is the father of Brahma (ब्रह्मा), Vishnu (विष्णु) and Shiva (शिव). He is also addressed as Mahabrahma (मंहब्रह्मा), Mahavishnu (मंहविष्णु), and Mahashiva (मंहशिव). To have complete knowledge about the status of Brahm (ब्रह्म), the readers need to be aware of Creation of nature.
http://www.supremeknowledge.org/brahm.php
'Kaal' or 'Brahm' is the father of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv. He is also called Mahabrahma, Mahavishnu and Mahashiv. We all live in Kaal Lok. All the planets including Earth are a part of Kaal Lok. Heaven and Hell is also with in this Kaal Lok. This is the same 'Kaal' which Guru Nanak Dev Ji has mentioned in his Bani in Guru Granth Sahib. People misinterpret 'Kaal' as 'time' or 'death' but in reality Kaal refers to the God above Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv. He through the medium of three Gods gives us birth and then kills us. Kaal does not let anyone escape his lok. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is among one of those who went to 'Sachkhand', in other words 'Satlok' which is above the Kaal Lok. When someone is said to attain salvation (Moksha), then he or she escapes the Kaal Lok and reaches Satlok or Sachkhand. ਤਿਥੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਅਪੜੈ ਜਿਥੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥੭॥(Page 55, satar 17) Kaal does not reach that place, where the Infinite Word of the Guru's Shabad resounds.
In the aforesaid sacred speech, Shri Nanak Ji is saying that Brahma Ji was born from Omkaar i.e. Jyoti Niranjan (Kaal). After wandering for many yugas, Omkaar (Brahm) produced Vedas, which were obtained by Brahma Ji. Only ‘Om’ mantra is the actual mantra for the devotion of the three loks. One is uplifted by doing jaap of this ‘Om’ shabd after taking updesh from a Complete Saint i.e. by acquiring a Guru. Important: Shri Nanak Ji has given secretive description of the three mantras (Om + Tat + Sat) in several places. Only a Complete Saint (Tattavdarshi) can understand this and the method of the jaap of the three mantras is explained only to the Updeshi (follower, disciple).
https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/who-is-kaal-what-is-kaal-lok-what-is-satlok-and-what-is-sh_32149
Sikhism relies on Guru Nanak from the middle ages, but it should not to be confounded with modern SANT MAT. The most important book of Sikhism is the "ADI GRANTH". The Adi Granth says, “Omkar Ved nirmaye”. ("Omkar(God) revealed Vedas , i.e. Omkar reveales the highest knowledge).
The statement of guru Nanakas "Ek Onm Kar" (there is only one god) is similar.
For Guru Nanak God Himself was the Guru: TAT NIRAN~JAN JOT(I) SABAAYEE SOHN~ BHED NAA KOYE JEEO APARAN~PAR PAARBRAHAM PARMESAR NAANAK GUR MILIAA SOYE JEEO.
http://etternaltruth.weebly.com/et-blog/sant-mat-radhda-soami
Henosis Sage
"For Guru Nanak God Himself was the Guru ...."
fwiw Paul Twitchell, in a rare moment of lucidity, said the same thing in a letter to friends penned in July 1957.
He wrote it as "God is the only master"
I still suspect he plagiarised that as well! Must have had the adi granth out on loan from a library. ;-)
Anyways, if i recall correctly, Nanak's uncle was a "Hindu" Brahman priest, and a task master.
Hindu/sanatana dharma gurus were not uncommon the prior few thousand years across India... the associated "initiation" systems for disciples.
what's interesting is how so many muslims were equally attracted to his "new age" teaching of that time.
Kabir follows a similar pattern at that time as well. Some say they met, but hey, who really cares anyway, and why would it matter?
re the hindu trinity, shiva et al.
Heard an interesting take on the trinity the other day, and how it's possible for 3 to be part of the one.
it's hard to visualise. It's impossible to make physical things be like that. hard for the mind to comprehend.
so this chap explained it via "sound" .... play a note, play two notes, then play three notes all at once.
They are very much so three in one. aka Jesus and his "I and the father are one" can actually work. It;'s about vibration, about sound, about harmony, about individuals being their own "note" or "chord" ...... are part of the whole "sound" of God .. etc. individual and distinct and yet also sounding all at once as one great "harmony".
Numbers aka maths imho are a reflection of this .... which means michael wallace and his number harmonics had something going there.
anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that Surat Shabd Yoga, aka shiv dayal singh very much based his "new age" teaching on the Sikh teachings he was taught as a child and the things he read, and his own ideas/experiences and Hinduism and sufi islam and ............. whatever.
People get a hold of these things and then incessantly dumb it all down for the "masses" who may be attracted to such "gurus" and their teachings ... word of mouth is a great promotional tool that works to attract one's attention.
which reminds of an experience I had one day .... I called it feeding the fish! ;-)
Tisra Til
...Heard an interesting take on the trinity the other day, and how it's possible for 3 to be part of the one.
it's hard to visualise. It's impossible to make physical things be like that. hard for the mind to comprehend.
so this chap explained it via "sound" .... play a note, play two notes, then play three notes all at once.
Yes, I believe the 3 in one idea is an ancient one that was part of the old esoteric systems in many parts of the world. The most exoteric symbol is the Tao symbol in Taoism. The circle as a whole represents the Absolute, which encompasses all of existence. It splits Itself into the Yin and the Yang, which represents the extremes of pure Spirit and pure Matter (the two 'eternals'), and everything in the manifest realms is a combination of pure Spirit and pure Matter, which creates the virtually infinite forms of consciousness; the Many. That is why there is a black dot against the white Yang side, and a white dot in the black Yin side.
In many systems the threefold aspect of creation was mythologized as the Father, Mother and Son. Symbolized as the cross in the circle. The Father is pure Spirit, the Mother is pure Matter (or matrix of objectivity), and their union creates the Son, which is consciousness, which is the "Word" made flesh; or you could call it the Universal Mind, if so inclined :-) Omnipresent. In Hinduism you have the goddess Maya, which is closely related to matter and measurement, which is illusion; i.e. the world of measurement is the world of illusion. Also connected to Mary - the illusory "mother" that gives birth to the "son" of intelligent Life; who is one 'in essence' (spirit) with his "Father in Heaven", the Absolute.
There are others. Isis, Osiris, Horus. Not sure of the exact Greek names, but had the same idea (Zeus, Eros, Apollo, maybe). Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva. Creator, Preserver, Destroyer.
Yes, mythology can create a lot of confusion if there is no knowledge of the deeper truths that are contained within, or behind it. Is mythological thinking necessary in this day and age?? Is humanity ready to move beyond that way of thinking into the light of day? That is the (or a) question.
Henosis Sage
yes the Tao symbol is a great example that applies. as are the others.
but people keep getting trapped in their own particular Brand of strict religious beliefs which is then incorporated into socialised beliefs and norms and abuse of power to comply or face the consequences.
imho religion repeatedly dumbs everything down beyond recognition of the simplest truths.
Etznab put it nicley one day that we are all kind of "schitzophrenic" as in split between being earthly animals and spiritual beings (soul).
I also think of it as being like locked in a prison .... LSD mushies and OOBEs and dreams and meditations tend to confirm this is the case.
However, I am not convinced that are "soul awareness" / individuality is distinct or sustainable after death ..... by the time one finds this out it's all too late anyway ROFL
My research (understanding) into modern psychology and cognitive sciences maybe a way to explode such myths out of the water ... but still I doubt it's possible to drive change inside people's heads. These new knowledge both tend to explain why religion is what it is, why people seek it out, and in ways explain many "mysteries" that have been twisted into religion & god/guru worship.
It's really hard for me to explain why how and where I see this info reflected in the various teachings ideals myths beliefs etc.
When will humanity stop destroying the biosphere's life and stop abusing and traumatizing their own young children - and stop inculcating the into the insanity of most religious myths and beliefs?
aka the sins of the father are visited upon the child.
aka children are instructed / brainwashed what to believe on their mothers knees.
or as you ask:
Is mythological thinking necessary in this day and age?? Is humanity ready to move beyond that way of thinking into the light of day?
I am at a loss for a solution.
But this I know for certain ... Eckankar, Sant mat, radhasomai, sikhism, hinduism, christianity, islam, buddhism, and atheism and SCIENCE et al are definitely not the solution - they are in essence the problem and the cause of much harm and collective insanity aka anti-humanity and anti-life at their core.
Maybe it is always only ever an INDIVIDUAL effort and a non-branded self-realisation that matters. It matters to this star fish kind of thing?
Buggered if I know mate. :-)
always nice chatting and reading your reports. take care.
Tisra Til
I'm with ya there.
.....When will humanity stop destroying the biosphere's life and stop abusing and traumatizing their own young children - and stop inculcating them into the insanity of most religious myths and beliefs?......
My opinion, when they (we) learn to step out of our conditioned consciousness, and feel the interconnectedness of consciousness and spirit. Of course, I'm sure you are aware that the deconditioning of consciousness is the sine qua non of existence. How to do that was probably the focus of mystical traditions in the past, with the masses receiving the mythologized version, which eventually led to idol-guru worship, cults and group-think, and so on. Leading to the belief that all of the fingers pointing to the moon (words) was just like being on the moon.
And so religion and philosophy was born, along with the saviors and gurus and their fantastic cosmologies, to ask and answer the big questions. "Who is this God fella you keep talking about?" "Please sit down son, and let us talk......" o^O
Etznab
If something were scientifically true and many people knew about it and could demonstrate it then that thing would be common knowledge and naturally past from one generation to another. Especially things that were technologically useful. In other words, some things would get repeated and shared because they were REAL and REALLY helpful. Belief and faith not required.
A lot of the religious teachings produce imaginary experiences and drugs can do the same thing. So can dreams. And all of these can convince a person that they are experiencing something real. However, imagining that you can fly will not help after jumping off a bridge. Imagining that spiritual beings would come and save you might not help either. Did it help Harold?
There are so many religions and varied beliefs about God, but which ones are true? My point is that if religion had any line on the truth about anything then it would not be something up for debate, but it would be a real scientific and useful product that people would naturally repeat over and over because it works. Like the knowledge of the wheel that continued and evolved because it had practical purpose. The wheel is not up for debate. People know what it is and what it can do. They see it happening all around them.
If there ever was any real truth about God then I am convinced that many people would naturally know about it. It would not be something up for debate. It would instead be scientifically practical and used by almost everybody. People would not be fighting wars over different beliefs about it and what it is.
Tisra Til
The problem, or question, though, is can this spiritual path be tested and tried according to the rules of objective science, which really is the only one that matters to scientists that count, weigh and measure? Not much, if any, room for intuition or feelings that have any kind of effect on brain chemistry, if all that is recognized is neurons and serotonin, which, again, can only be counted and measured, not given any kind of subjective meaning to the I that experiences it.
I would never get into any kind of debate or discussion with someone who is a dyed in the wool objective scientist who counts as real only that which can be objectively viewed. It would be pointless, to me. They wouldn't have any kind of inkling of what I was talking about if I mention something like eternity, or a universal mind - or consciousness, or some "planes" of existence that aren't completely physical, and measurable. These are topics which interest me, and which I have spent long periods of time delving into and imagining, and have given to me certain conclusions. The pure, objective scientist would have none of that. Which is okay, if that is his "trip." If he/she is passionate about what they are doing, who am I to try to rain on their parade?
IMHO, the mystical experiences that initially gave rise to certain systems of transcendental thought, came from lsd and mushies use (which were an integral part of early spirituality), dreams, meditations and OOBEs, and became over time organized and ritualized (becoming a religion), giving some form to something that pointed to a realization and experience of the formless. In that way, as time passed, the person getting involved in this belief system was farther and farther removed from the initial mystic's life-reality, and so had to rely on someone else, and the writings of others further removed, and this led to the fingers pointing to the moon, not the actual experience of 'moonness.' Which is all subjective experiences. It can't really be codified with any kind of precision, like measuring the weight of iron.
The worlds of subjective spirituality cannot be viewed through the objectively based scientific method, iow. I'm open to the possibility that it could, but really the human mind and spirit (self, soul, I, whatever you want to call it) is so vast and virtually infinite in it's capacity to experience different phenomena, that to try to limit (or lock up, as HS said) consciousness to any set frame of reference, would be difficult. But as the Zen Buddhist scripture says, 'the Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised.' (from the hsin hsin ming).
Etznab
Also, what is science today can be viewed as magic and miraculous to some people who are ignorant about how things work. A camera, or an airplane to a native not aware of modern technology. So it could be a relative thing. What seems like religion and spirituality to us now, the same could be practical science to a more advanced species.
I like this discussion. In the stories about Kal and other similar beings they were described as God's most favored beings; sitting on the right side of God, etc. Then, according to the stories something changed when the exalted beings tried to replace God; actually I think they claimed liberty to do the same things as God as if to be on an equal par. And for that they were supposedly cast into the lower worlds and reign as Lords over them. Personally I don't see these stories, these myths as literal. I see them as metaphorical and symbolic. The "Fall" from heaven I suspect was simply the process of creating the lower worlds. The process being personified so that humans could try to grasp it all. And I think there is a big chance that human beings projected their own biases, ignorance, preconceptions and prejudice onto what is the truth about creation. In other words, they added pseudo events and history. And the same pseudo events and history could have been adopted by those who didn't know any better or were too lazy to try and discover the truth for themselves. They might have passed it on to others just like people today who find information on the Internet and it gets recycled and multiplied all over the Net; read by millions.
The down side of the pseudo history, religion and just plain ignorance, IMHO, is when fantasy and untruths replace the truth. Maybe this is how science and religion become two different things. When there is not a way to verify what is real and what is fantasy. I am not saying that fantasy cannot be beneficial. It can. But it can also be deadly dangerous and responsible for the needless deaths of millions of people falling victims to automatons run amuck!
Henosis Sage
fwiw in a way it's related imho. also touches on recent #metoo revelations. (I think the world needs such a logo for those caught in and abused by 'religions' and the power brokers (head trips) who tend to rise to the top in them ... and the gullible unknowing who so readily will follow them and then PARROT what they say and claim. Mmmmm.
quoting
" For the Moon, in the same degree of Leo, we find, “A Parrot Listening and Then Talking,” reminding us of the nature of intelligence to shape its own reality, and the pitfall of mimicking and projecting a false self into the world.
" We may take from this latter symbol a helpful reminder to continue consciously shaping ourselves in ways that honor both our authentic and essential nature, and in doing so equally endeavoring to offer ourselves in service to the highest good of all beings. "
https://www.astrograph.com/horoscopes/configurations/2017/November/10
Tisra Til
....The "Fall" from heaven I suspect was simply the process of creating the lower worlds.....
The involutionary process of spirit becoming involved with matter - an ancient idea. Symbolized by the innocent Adam and Eve (purely spiritual) eating the forbidden fruit (awareness, knowledge) and falling into it's decaying forms (matter).
The part of creation that the material, academic scientists ignore, or are ignorant of. Maybe some know, but are afraid to speak out about it. Can't verify or prove that subtle realms exist and give rise to - create - physical phenomena.