Re: The Forgotten Ford Johnson

[wernertrp]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01:49 AM UTC+1, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR.
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> Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory.
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> New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was.
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> This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears.
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> May the blessings be.




Harold never responded directly to me.
Because he never have had my home address.
But he wrote a short stupid remark in the
the-mystic-world spring 1983 about me.
I think he was informed about me from this
stupid Mahdis Josef Sedlmeier about my happening(s).

eckankar and his half knowledge members.
klemp and his half-half knowledge about the half mastered half-vairag.

[wernertrp]

On Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:10:35 AM UTC+1, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:

> Would these happenings be...having your hair pulled with an armlock behind your back having expletives shouted into your ear as you were escorted out the door onto the street? Or was your hair half-pulled, your arm half-locked, and expletives cut off at the first vowell (eg hu___ schi___)?



Is this procedure above a really new recommended eckankar exercise
for pulling and streching a/my soul out of the center of my brain
or is it only pulling out my brain without pulling the soul staying inside out ?

Those with lesser success in soul travelling and more success in voodoo
are also welcome to eckankar.
(As long as the $$ dues arrive most punctual.)

[wernertrp]

On Thursday, November 21, 2013 3:40:27 PM UTC+1, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:02:17 AM UTC, wernertrp wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:10:35 AM UTC+1, johnr...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, November 21, 2013 12:04:22 AM UTC-8, wernertrp wrote: > > > On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01:49 AM UTC+1, sign...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > May the blessings be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harold never responded directly to me. > > > > > > Because he never have had my home address. > > > > > > But he wrote a short stupid remark in the > > > > > > the-mystic-world spring 1983 about me. > > > > > > I think he was informed about me from this > > > > > > stupid Mahdis Josef Sedlmeier about my happening(s). > > > > > > > > > > > > eckankar and his half knowledge members. > > > > > > klemp and his half-half knowledge about the half mastered half-vairag. > > > > Would these happenings be...having your hair pulled with an armlock behind your back having expletives shouted into your ear as you were escorted out the door onto the street? Or was your hair half-pulled, your arm half-locked, and expletives cut off at the first vowell (eg hu___ schi___)? Is this procedure above a really new recommended eckankar exercise for pulling and streching a/my soul out of the center of my brain or is it only pulling out my brain without pulling the soul staying inside out ? Those with lesser success in soul travelling and more success in voodoo are also welcome to eckankar. (As long as the $$ dues arrive most punctual.)
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> Your mention of "$$ dues" reminds me of two things:
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> a) To find out whether or not ECKANKAR will work for you is pretty easy and has nothing to due with "dues". Practice a few of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK found on the website and in the books, most of which you can buy without belonging officially to ECKANKAR.(These exercises are vital to spiritual unfoldment irrespective or whether or not you choose to join.)
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> b) From August 2013 membership donations have been revamped making it easier to contribute as much or as little as you can afford. The discourses have also been updated to include CDs of snippets of Harold's talks. Now each member of a family unit gets their own copy of the Mystic World. 2013 has seen significant changes in the nature of ECK membership.
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> May the blessings be.



do you hack the pineal ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPwB7HlmJMs

[wally...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 9:01:49 PM UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR.
>
>
>
> Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory.
>
>
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> New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was.
>

Why? What difference will a year make?

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> This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears.
>

Well he doesn't need to when you do it for him Rob.

>
>
> May the blessings be.

[wally...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:40:27 AM UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:


>
> Your mention of "$$ dues" reminds me of two things:
>
>
>
> a) To find out whether or not ECKANKAR will work for you is pretty easy and has nothing to due with "dues". Practice a few of the Spiritual Exercises of ECK found on the website and in the books, most of which you can buy without belonging officially to ECKANKAR.(These exercises are vital to spiritual unfoldment irrespective or whether or not you choose to join.)
>
>
>
> b) From August 2013 membership donations have been revamped making it easier to contribute as much or as little as you can afford. The discourses have also been updated to include CDs of snippets of Harold's talks. Now each member of a family unit gets their own copy of the Mystic World. 2013 has seen significant changes in the nature of ECK membership.
>

Well that's super Rob! What wonderful changes in Eckankar's revamped marketing and member services. brilliant. who would have ever thought of that 20 years ago. Do I hear the pounding feet of a flood of new members signing up now that dues have been revised downwards and the provision of services and materials increased at a lower per unit cost. Now that's brilliant marketing.

Here's a short yet intelligent and humourous analysis of workings and nature of advertising and marketing - seems to fit : Bill Hicks on Marketing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Alternatively one could read some of Paul Twitchell's older writings on Marketing, Public Relations, and Public Opinion.

Rob next time you shoot off an IRO to Harji, how about including a free gift to him and Joan of this value for money DVD for their enlightenment?
http://www.russellbrand.com/2013/11/pre-order-russell-brand-messiah-complex-on-dvd/

[wally...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 9:01:49 PM UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR.
>
>
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> Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory.
>
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> New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was.
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>

> This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears.
>
>
>

> May the blessings be.

It is a given that in order to perceive an attack one must hold to the singular point of view of something being in need of defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq-aa9WYtK0

The sun is still shining, look at the view
The moon is still dining, with me and you
Now that we're out here, open your heart
To the universe, of which we're a part

Everything's turning, turning around
See with your mind, leave your body behind
Now that we're out here, open your heart
To the universe, of which we're a part

But if you want to play
Stay right back on earth
Waiting for rebirth

The sun is still shining, look at the view
The moon is still dining, with me and you
Now that we're out here, open your heart
To the universe, of which we're a part

But if you want to play
Stay right back on earth
Waiting for rebirth

_________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne9mMNC5xQQ

Floating free as a bird
Sixty foot leaps it's so absurd
From up here you should see the view
Such a lot of space for me and you

Oh you'd like it
Gliding around get your feet off the ground
Oh you'd like it
Do as you please with so much ease

Now I know how it feels
To have wings on my heels
To take a stroll among the stars
Get a close look at planet Mars

Oh you'd like it
Gliding around get your feet off the ground
Oh you'd like it
Do as you please with so much ease

Bouncing about on the moon
Guess you'll all be up here soon
The candy stores they'll be brand new
And you'll buy a rock with the moon right through

Oh you'd like it
Gliding around get your feet off the ground
Oh you'd like it
Do as you please with so much ease

Come fly...
Come fly...
Come fly...

_____________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVBfsJ7SoxI

Listen, hear the sound
The child awakes
Wonder all around
The child awakes
Now in his life
He never must be lost
No thoughts must deceive him
In life he must trust

With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part
Of a hope
Of a love
That exists
In the eyes of a child you will see

Earth falls far away
New life awaits
Time it has no day
New life awaits
Here is your dream
And now how does it feel?
No words will go with you
And now what is real?

With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part
Of a hope
Of a love
That exists
In the eyes of a child you will see

___________________________

No thoughts must deceive .... now what is real?

Wake up from the dream Rob :)

[Etznab]

Much of the information in Ford Johnson's book is true.

Are you mocking the true facts that he reiterated and that Eckankar has failed to elaborate on? Are you trying to effectively sanitize the garbage of plagiarisms and pseudo history / religion created by the "Eckankar" paradigm and dogma?

Allow me to remind and show you what Eckankar has failed to explain about the Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell like pages out of so many books that were in existence during Paul Twitchell's day and that were a part of Paul Twitchell's recommended reading list before the official founding of Eckankar.

This is the truth I am talking about. Truth that has not gone away, that never will go away and that someone will have to DO SOMETHING ABOUT whether it is Harold Klemp or one of his successors.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:01:49 AM UTC-6, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR.
>
>
>
> Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory.
>
>
>
> New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was.
>
>
>
> This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears.
>
>
>
> May the blessings be.

My favorite example to look at is the one where quotes from Julian Johnson, Swami Vivekananda and Louis Lavelle - in Paul Twitchell's version - seem to all come out of the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs. I'm not sure where that post is, but maybe this one includes some of those examples.

***

[...] The discovery of 'self ' is first of all an act of inward retirement; it is what is termed the going in. "We penetrate then" — says Lavelle — "into an invisible world; but this discovery occasions anguish and it is presumptuous to march to the conquest of this inner world without very definite directions, very precise counsels — hence the absolute necessity of a Master."

Julian Johnson, The Path Of The Masters, first published 1939.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

"The discovery of Soul, the real self, is first of all an act of inward retirement; it is termed the going in, penetrating the first step into the God realms.
"We penetrate into an invisible world; but this discovery occasions anguish and it is presumptuous to march to the conquest of this inner world without very definite directions, very precise counsels hence the necessity, at first, of a spiritual traveler to give the right directions on the royal highway to the Far Country."

Rebazar Tarzs in The Far Country, by Paul Twitchell, 1970

http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

Observations: Who spoke about this necessity ... of a Master? Apparently, it was Louis Lavelle, being quoted by Julian Johnson. This is very different from Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell in the Hindu Kush mountains, IMHO.

Besides, the book by Johnson came out years BEFORE the book by Twitchell. So why doesn't Paul Twitchell, or Rebazar Tarzs reference Lavelle, or Johnson? Is it because this would destroy the "Eckankar" mythos and replace it with more accurate historical truth?

Just asking.

***

Chapter 11 for TFC begins (with typo corrections):

Chapter 11 THE SUGMAD OF BEING

Sri Rebazar Tarzs was extremely pleased with himself this particular morning when I entered his little hut in the Hindu Kush mountains, overlooking the wild country of Afghanistan.

Seating ourselves in the hot sunlight outside the hut, the scenery distracted me for a moment, but quickly my attention returned to Rebazar Tarzs as he spoke.

"No problems/' Rebazar Tarzs said, starting the morning's discussion, "of greater or of more moving import confront the spiritual traveler than those of the potential awareness of his own consciousness, of the deep significance of the place he occupies in the Far Country as a Tuza, and of the purpose he should first discover and pursue.

"This consciousness of the ECK is the primal metaphysical experience, which, while causing one to penetrate into one's innermost being, at the same time
causes one to penetrate deep into the Far Country.

"The Far Country cannot be experienced as one does the physical universe, for man is such a part of the latter that he doesn't see what he is; in fact he aids in its formation, because he is, as it were, an actor in a kind of drama, the variations of which depend on his subjective life expressing its manifold incidents. His affective states are not to be considered as mere accidents, of interest only to himself, to which the universe remains impassive. No, for eventually he becomes the ECK traveler also, penetrates into intimacy with the
ECK, participates in the innermost workings of Its life, and gains in the revelation of Its mystery.

http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

NOW COMPARE those excerpts with Julian Johnson quoting Louis Lavelle (years earlier):

NO problem of greater or of more moving import confronts man than that of possible awareness of his own consciousness, the deep significance of the place he occupies in the world as a whole, and of the purpose he should first discover and then pursue.

This consciousness of Self is the primal metaphysical experience, which, while causing one to penetrate into one's innermost being, at the same time causes one to penetrate into the universe. We cannot behold this universe as we could some spectacle before our eyes, for we ourselves are part of it; we aid in its formation; we are — as it were — fellow actors in a kind of drama, the variations of which depend on our subjective life which expresses its manifold incidents. Our affective states are not to be considered as mere accidents, of interest to no one but ourselves, to which the universe remains impassive, for thereby we penetrate into its intimacy and participate in the innermost workings of its life and gain the revelation of its mystery.

LAVELLE

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

***

Now, perhaps, the question moves from "Who wrote what?" to "Why?" For example, Why do the sayings of Rebazar Tarzs (by Paul Twitchell from The Far Country) so much resemble what came out of a book that Paul Twitchell was familiar with?

The Far Country was believed written in the 1960s - 1963, or 1964 - according to what I have seen, but not published until the following decade.

For those who have Letters To Gail, Volume One, by Paul Twitchell go to the letter for February 22nd, 1963 and have a read. Notice anything there familiar with the excerpts I quoted above? Notice how that was Paul Twitchell writing to Gail and NOT Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell in the Hindu Kush?

Now (for those who have the book) further turn to Chapter Eight from Eckankar's "Bible" or, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book Two. have a gander at about the 6th page in (or Second Edition 1988, p. 154). Notice anything there familiar with the excerpts I quoted above? Notice how that was Paul Twitchell writing and NOT Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell in the Hindu Kush mountains? Notice how spiritual traveler gets replaced by Living Eck Master?

***

Looking at all of this in a larger context one can consider Letters to Gail in the 1960s and ask, "But why does The Far Country feature Rebazar Tarzs and the text more closely resemble The Path Of The Masters (by Johnson) versions?

IMO, it is reasonable to assume that Paul Twitchell FIRST wrote about so many different things in his Letters to Gail BEFORE any of those "things" got later published in Eckankar books. But the timing is interesting here, IMO. Paul was writing letters to Gail in early 1960s and this was also the time (1964 - at least) when the name Rebazar Tarzu reportedly first appeared in public print (Nov. 1964).

I have a suspicion. Did Paul Twitchell decide to write about so many things to MORE THAN just his fiancee and future (2nd) wife? Did he take his writings and fashion them into another format? One that featured Rebazar Tarzs?

I have another suspicion. Paul writes: "The switchover from the Cliff-Hanger to ECK began taking place after I met my present wife, Gail. She insisted I do something with my knowledge and abilities."

That last quote was referenced in Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher Consciousness, by Ford Johnson, Copyright 2003, pp. 93 & 486]

http://archive.org/details/ConfessionsOfAGodSeeker

Gail insisted? After Paul started writing to her (about every week, or month, for about three years? Gail insisted he "do something"? Was this where it - the "Eckankar" mythos - all REALLY began?

***

According to Doug Marman:

"Paul studied a tremendous number of teachings. Anyone can read his Letters To Gail to get an indication of this. It includes hundreds of books and spiritual groups. He took up with Swami Premananda's group not only as a student, but also to write and help, since he had already studied the spiritual field extensively by this time. He went on to work for L. Ron Hubbard's group as a staff writer [1952?] about the same time he met with Kirpal Singh on Kirpal's first American tour, and Paul began writing while he studied with Kirpal, right from the beginning."

[Based on: Doug Marman, Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 5]

Now pay close attention to the following. According to Brad Steiger:

"[....] 'It was while traveling with Sudar Singh in the Nuri Sarup that I met Rebazar Tarzs,' Paulji reminded me, 'and it was in the company of Rebazar Tarzs that I returned to a study of the Far Country. Later, with Gail and her spiritual guide, Dr. John Leland, I came to know Rebazar Tarzs better, and I began to leave my physical body at night to meet with him at his mud and brick hut in the Himalayas. It was a series of twelve important dialogues with Rebazar Tarzs which produced my manuscript The Far Country.'* [*Published in 1970.] [....]" [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE (ISBN 0-914766-11-2), by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p. 121]

Notice how Paul Twitchell reportedly said / wrote: "[...] I began to leave my physical body at night to meet with him at his mud and brick hut in the Himalayas."

Also, Paul writes on p. 10-11 of The Far Country: "Later, with Gail, my wife, I came to know Rebazar Tarzs better. He talked several times to us. I began to leave the body at night and meet with him at his mud and brick hut in the Himalayas."

***

Any thoughts?

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:01:49 AM UTC-6, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> It wasn't all that long ago that Ford Johnson departed ECKANKAR in a blaze of self-importance. Souls, whose days in ECKANKAR were effectively already over, left the path with him, some even claiming that his views had finally opened their eyes to the "sham" that is ECKANKAR.
>
>
>
> Yet what have we today? Many, many souls, unfolding quietly to co-workership with the Sugmad, the momentary fuss about Ford and his book a distant memory.
>
>
>
> New ECKists 1 year from now will have no idea who Ford even was.
>
>
>
> This is the reason why the Living ECK Master of the times need never respond directly to these naysayers and critics. The ages roll by and Soul unfolds to the Sugmad for when the Soul is ready the Master appears.
>
>
>
> May the blessings be.

More references (a.r.e. repost):

We ought to remember the words of Vivekananda about
churches, and religions in general. We could not say it
better, so let us quote him: "...A man may believe in all
the churches in the world; he may carry in his head all
the sacred books ever written; he may baptize himself
in all the rivers of the earth - still if he has no perception

of God, I would class him with the rankest atheist. And
a man may have never entered a church or a mosque,
nor performed any ceremony; but if he realizes God within
himself, and is thereby lifted above the vanities of the world,
that man is a holy man, a saint, call him what you will..."

- Julian Johnson, The Path of the Masters

"Now a study of the Divine SUGMAD is in order" said
Rebazar Tarzs, dropping upon the floor and putting his
legs one over the other in a lotus position [....]

"You don't find the SUGMAD through religion. IT's be-
yond religion of any nature, and nobody is going to seek
for IT correctly when they know not where IT is.
"The SUGMAD is beyond this world of senses, this

world of eternal eating and drinking and talking nonsense,
this world of false shadows and selfishness.
"IT is beyond all books, beyond all creeds, beyond the
vanities of the world. It is the realization of the SUGMAD
within oneself.
"A man may believe in all the churches in the world;
he may carry in his head all the sacred books ever written;
he may baptize himself in all the rivers of the earth, - still
if he has no perception of the SUGMAD, I would class
him with the rankest atheist. And a man may never
enter a church or a mosque, nor perform any ceremony;
but if he realizes the SUGMAD within himself, and is

thereby lifted above the vanities of the world, that man
is a holy man, a saint; call him what you will.
I will add that it is good to be bormn in a church, but

it is bad to die there. It is good to be born a child, but
bad to remain a child. Churches, ceremonies, symbols,
are good for children; but when a child is grown up, he
must burst, either the church or himself. [....]"

- Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell. The Far Country

***************************************************************

For those who have eyes to see, let them see! Let them
learn that Vivekananda's lecture took place over 100 yrs.
ago! That Julian Johnson's book came out in 1939. That
The Far Country - featuring Rebazar Tarzs - came out
over 30 years after that.

Add to that a familiarity by Paul Twitchell with writings
& teachings by Vivekananda and Julian Johnson and the
obvious conclusion is that Paul twitchell used Rebazar
tarzs as a "literary device" to convey the words and the
teachings of others.

And people don't understand why I question the written
history, along with the physical reality of Rebazar Tarzs.

These excerpts are but the tip of an iceberg. Moreover,
I seriously doubt the members posting in this group be-
sides myself are even familiar with the extent of plagiar-
ism and copying by Paul Twitchell.

I like the writings. Much of them. What I don't like are
the comments by others surprised by the things I say,
or others who ask when I am going to leave Eckankar.
Nor should I have to like that. IMHO.

If they want to know when I'm going to leave "their own
version" of Eckankar, I must remind them that my path
is not their path. And that is OK :)

BTW, the excerpts from Vivekananda's talk & quotes
from The Far Country illustrated in this link have not
been illustrated together before. Not that I am aware
of. Ford Johnson gave a snippet in his book, showing
the Quote from The Path of the Masters and The Far
Country. However, after looking at Vivekananda's
lecture and the chapter of The Far Country, there are
a lot more similarities than that illustrated by Ford J.

Etznab

[wally...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 7:52:32 PM UTC+11, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Your conclusions do not bear enough validity to influence me, Etznab. Your thinking, if I may compare it to the photo of a pencil in a glass almost full with water, erroneously insists the CONCEPTS Paul Twitchell legally plagiarized are not true because they are plagiarized. This is as faulty as assuming the pencil is in two pieces because the light waves which catch your eye say so. You have also the need to prove Father Zasque vainly exaggerated his self-worth in the words of others for personal recognition to dominate people and financially gain from intentional deceit.
>
>
>
> Which came first? Eckankar: Key to Secret Worlds or Eckankar Inc.?
>
>
>
> Eckankar is a product of Sri Twitchell's experience as a gifted individual. He rose above his inadequacies as a human. The label "Dark Night of Soul" as described by St. John of the Cross' poem of surrender or what Kazimierz Dąbrowski defined as Positive Disintegration illustrate what Paulji was able to do and did. His mission was to share as efficiently as possible in the least amount of time in as many ways imaginable what he learned.
>
>
>
> Please share with us what fruit your imagination has borne in your lifetime compared with what Sri Paul Twitchell's imagination has and still does since you revile him so. Then move on and compare what you have produced compared to Sri Gross and Sri Klemp. When through, draw your conclusions about how much you think you are worth compared to them and amaze me with how much I am really at a loss for any Spiritual evolution during my lifetime. Thank-you.
>
>
>
> JR

20 years or so and still JR you're stuck in an irrational fantasy world of make believe.
"Etznab. Your thinking erroneously insists" false = straw-man
"are not true because they are plagiarized." false = straw-man
"You have also the need to prove Father Zasque vainly exaggerated his self-worth in the words of others for personal recognition to dominate people and financially gain from intentional deceit. " false = straw-man
"Eckankar is a product of Sri Twitchell's experience as a gifted individual" false = delusional and irrational and presumptuous = not based on truth and evidence nor reality or reason and common sense = opinionated waffle aka clutching at straws

"illustrate what Paulji was able to do and did" nonsequitur = it does not follow and is thus illogical fantasy and guesswork
" His mission was to share as efficiently as possible in the least amount of time in as many ways imaginable what he learned. " opinion and faulty cognitive thinking of a high order = mythical thinking from the entraining of written words and group think = the influences of propaganda and not individual reason nor wisdom
" compared with what Sri Paul Twitchell's imagination has" = If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. http://www.businessballs.com/desideratapoem.htm "The common myth is that the Desiderata poem was found in a Baltimore church in 1692 and is centuries old, of unknown origin. "

" since you revile him so. " says a LYING cynical and disrespectful anti-freedom loving old man

"Then move on and " says Mr Bossy Boots I have the right to TELL Etznab what he should do, because I JR is so great and oh so RIGHT the complete opposite of Paul Twitchell's own tips for life laid down in his lifetime be they plagiarized or not. Denial is not a river in Egypt except in the world delusional world of the ill at ease.

"compare what you have produced compared to Sri Gross and Sri Klemp." = If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. http://www.businessballs.com/desideratapoem.htm

"Thank-you. " Passive aggressive haughty over inflated self important and arrogant elitist clap trap.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Paul Twitchell's 'work' with Eckankar has harmed countless more genuine souls that it has ever helped.

Patti Simpson denied Harold Klemp was a master let alone a mythical 'mahanta'.

Doug Marman likewise denies that Harold Klemp is the Mahanta and whilst denying the actual Dogma of the teaching then proceeds to use that very teaching to tell others on his secret invitation only "HI" yahoo group that there is another Mahanta and won't tell anyone who that is because people have to work it out for themselves.

Paul Twitchell didnt do that, he actually published materials that said hey I am the Mahanta the living Eck master, and yet Doug Marman the illusionist spins the whole barrel of filthy water into a new wine. So Doug Marman is no follower of Paul's ideas and tips for life at all. He is actually instead irrational and suffering from a psychosis founded upon 40 years of mythical thinking and the lies and manipulations of others. What a fool, not a Master is he.

CRAP utter lying deceitful and insane crap by poor deluded souls infested with dysfunctional and disturbed thoughts of grandiosity. Fools Gold.

[wally...@gmail.com]

Imagination is important, yet everyone has it. In order to invent something new first one needs to imagine it, be creative and then invent it.

An invention is the creation of something that didn't exist before. It can be a simple gadget, a novel process, a new material, or a complex machine.

It requires creativity and imagination to be an inventor. People invent for a variety of reasons. Some invent in order to meet basic human needs.

Others invent to fulfill their own creative desires. Many inventions are inspired by social or economic reasons--by the desire to make life easier and more comfortable or by the need to make money.

Just because someone has a creative imagination and then invented something new, doesn't mean it works nor is fit for purpose.

Paul Twitchell did best with those by his side. What was missed in the writings and the lectures was filled in one on one. Advice from Paul was specifically relevant to the people close to him, and probably very good because he knew them engaged with them and was connected to them.

Just because he had an impact on some is not justification to believe that was transferable to the same degree via a sat sang class 50 years later whilst led by someone who has no idea what Paul was about, has no idea upon what the Eckankar teachings were actually founded upon.

When the later leader doesn't know, when he himself was led astray and didn't know how when nor why, then this is no rational justification to laud him simply because he has a title printed on his business cards and letter head paper.

Just because that leader and his followers say the Invention is the best in the world does not make it do. Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are really dangerous.

[wally...@gmail.com]

I speak for myself. I decide what I say and how I say it. If you do not like it then tough. Tell your mother about it.

My name is Wally, please be polite enough and have the good manners to address me by my name and don't be like those ignorant american drop kicks on NBC, link previously provided speaking with Russell Brand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH1OiVx_18

Appearances (and names used in public speaking and publications) can be and are deceiving JR. As Paul Twitchell clearly proved, and as Harold 'personality disordered' Klemp continues to prove daily.

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:01:18 PM UTC+11, johnr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:48:00 PM UTC-8, wally...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 20 years or so and still JR you're stuck in an irrational fantasy world of make believe.....CRAP utter lying deceitful and insane crap by poor deluded souls infested with dysfunctional and disturbed thoughts of grandiosity. Fools Gold.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Are you parroting, Etznab, Sean or are you speaking for him? Take a deep breath. No need to wig-out and go on a loud and proud condemnation rant. Just answer the question.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I speak for myself as a private citizen. I do not speak for any group or any other person. I spoke to Etznab who apparently uses you for a shield to avoid answering a straight-forward presentation.

[Etznab]

For those who aren't into the plagiarism thing. Have a gander. Isn't it more than just compilation?

It looks to me like Paul Twitchell made up a character called Rebazar Tarzs.

If this is true then why can't more people admit it? I think the reason is because Harold Klemp never admitted it and some people are afraid to admit it unless they heat Harold admit it first.

Some people. Not all people. And afraid of how other Eckists will treat them for saying it, what will happen to their status and standing, etc.

Are some people afraid to talk about plagiarism and the implications? Making up all kinds of excuses to avoid it? Maybe this is closer to the whole truth.

[Etznab]

Harold responded to things by David Lane. Things discovered by David Lane. Even admitting some of the very truths that David found.

Why? Because David put the information out in books and the Internet.

Ford Johnson's book was in many ways an echo of David Lane's book. Harold had to answer some things in order to put his own "spin" on them, just like Doug put his own spin on things by answering David.

You have your own spin too, Rob. I gave so many illustrated examples of what you belittle as things written in books to serve your purpose. Then detract from that to experiences. Rob, so what about your experiences. Those are yours. What have they taught you is also yours and need not concern others. You can't show those experiences, or even prove to others they are true. But I can show you the writings and I can prove that they are real. This way there is something we can both see and talk about. Things that you and others are too afraid to go near?

Tell it like it is. Don't make up excuses why you would rather live in your mental imaginations instead of discussing things like real recorded history. I think you could be better ballanced to trust in God and tie up your camel too.

[sign...@gmail.com]

In the end there are two kinds of people: those seeking spiritual enlightenment via the Light and Sound of God and those who aren't.

[Tisra Til]

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 3:36:02 PM UTC-5, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the end there are two kinds of people: those seeking spiritual enlightenment via the Light and Sound of God and those who aren't.

Who told you that? Or will your master not allow you?

[sign...@gmail.com]

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 9:36:02 PM UTC+1, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the end there are two kinds of people: those seeking spiritual enlightenment via the Light and Sound of God and those who aren't.

The other thing to bear in mind is that no man spiritually, at least, can grow beyond the object of his spiritual attention. A man intending to become a doctor, for example, lives that reality day and night and brings his actions into harmony with the goal his inner attention is on.

The same thing applies spiritually. If I want to be in the company of ECK Masters how can I do this unless I spiritualise my attention? It's one reason I don't have time for this plagiarism stuff. It's a side-show and distraction that attempts to remove the attention from where it should be, the ECK, one reason why those of us in ECK have long since learned the virtue of surrendering our concerns to the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.

[Etznab]

Don't have time for this plagiarism stuff? Or don't have time for a record and a physical history of the Eck Masters and their teachings? Because that is what a lot of the plagiarisms are! (Supposed to be, at least. Unless the founder lied about them in the first place.)

Oh yeah, I forget, people like you are above all that. Above history and above the mind because you don't need that in your spiritual imagination less it sink your battleship of fictions. Like over and over and over until you learn how to make one out of what is true and lasting. Like the word "sat" in satsang, sat nam, etc.

You put a word on something like a label as if to describe all about what it is. Like a used clothing label on a valuable piece of cloth so people pass it by and not buy it. The valuable piece of cloth is the truth. Your label is not. I can imagine you, instead of telling the truth, talking to the manikins in the clothing store. Telling them all about your wonderful path and they look back at you with wide open eyes as if enraptured by your pearls of wisdom. They do not question and talk back to you. They do not try to remind you about truth vs. fiction and you just keep on talking. They follow your every word just like so many follow every word of their gurus. But once a real person surprises you with a question, and you learn it is not a manikin, not a mindless drone, you reply with. Sorry Charlie. I'm not into that stuff.

So how is that for a creative imagination? Because imagination is what it is. And a story like you and your masters that doesn't have to mean a thing to me unless there is proof that it is true. So ask your masters some questions about history. Ask them who plagiarized from so many authors and said that the Eck Masters (they) said it? What I mean to say is prove to me that what you are saying is real and not just your imagination. Prove to me that they are not imaginary beings that you're asking me to believe in. Or, maybe you're not asking me to believe in them. You want me to prove them to myself? O.K. Well the Eck teachings, and what Eckankar has sold to many people for years already and made a heap of money includes teachings sourced from other places, other authors, other spiritual paths and someone stamped a big label on them as if to say "made by Eckankar" or "spoken by, dictated by, come from, etc. Eck Masters.

Remember Rob, you are not talking to an Ex-Member of Eckankar. You are writing to and communicating with an active member of Eckankar for decades and are doing it publicly. Already I communicated what Harold Klemp said about "your path" and "my path". That they are not the same and that is O.K. Already I communicated the saying "Everybody has their own Eckankar." And I am not the only person who gives feedback to you in this group. Others have expressed themselves as well. You, yourself mentioned something about a class, or satsang that you went to and what was learned about there. So why not try and respect other people and the way they see things just a little bit more?

Do you see me telling you and others they are not authentic members of Eckankar, as if to try and use it against them? But over the years I have watched others do that right here on this board. Posters like You, like Jasmine, like Kinpa, like Atzumai and others. These our way or the highway kinds of things are what make new people walk into an Eck Center then turn around and leave! (Maybe not right away, or when you are watching). And all the while people and clergy are scratching their heads about why. They try to revise the services and events. change the posters, invent new words and catch phrases, put out new guidelines about how to respond to newbies. They even create new positions like designated greeters to insure that newcomers are not put off. And still some people leave on account of our way or the highway Eckists blabbing in their faces ecksplaning everything they say about religion and spirit, etc. This is not made up. I've seen it over and over in real life. Clergy breaking the guidelines specifically created for them. I saw a copy of the writing Harold designed for them as well to remind them to stop looking at people as if like hungry wolves spying so many chicken dinners.

So remember who you're talking to, Rob. And maybe try to listen just a little bit more. I really appreciate it.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Discussing 'plagiarism' is pointless. It's a federal issue for you and the non-ECKists here; for me it isn't. Paul Twitchell didn't invent ECKANKAR, he revealed it. I am certainly grateful that he did. Finding ECKANKAR has been the highlight of this lifetime and for this I have nothing but gratitude and admiration towards Paul Twitchell who set things up and got the ball rolling.

May the blessings be.

[Etznab]

Revealed? Yeah. I'm grateful too. He also copied a lot, invented some stuff and threw it all together under the banner of Eckankar vs. Ekankar.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 7:36:33 AM UTC-5, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

> Once I was alarmed by a discovery I made about the ECKANKAR initiations. Appalled, but knowing I had the spiritual resources at end to deal with the 'crisis', I immediately wrote an initiate report to the Living ECK Master and was directed to a.r.e. where, in the archives, there was an entry by a former ECKist and RESA that put my mind at ease.
>
> Indirectly, I am saying that - if 'plagiarism' was a federal issue for me - I would look within for the resolution rather than run the risk of it corroding my love for ECK over time.

"[...] if 'plagiarism' was a federal issue for me - I would look within for the resolution rather than run the risk of it corroding my love for ECK over time."

It's not an issue, but is what it is. And my love for spirit has nothing to do with plagiarism. Rather, the "issue" is people in denial about plagiarisms and redactions, etc. People in denial about pseudo history and religion.

Religion, to me (whether called Eckankar, or whatever) is not defined by the name of the religion, or by so many fictions. Religion, to me, is defined by how much truth it contains, or denies. A spiritual path, to me, is one that respects the truth. Not only the truth of history, but the truth in contradistinction to so many lies.

When admitting the extent of plagiarism and that it was done by Paul Twitchell, I fail to see where there is room for an Eck Master in there. I mean any Eck Master. If you have another explanation how an Eck Master can be a part of those plagiarized passages then let's talk about it. Tell me how an Eck Master fits into all of Paul's copied, paraphrased and plagiarized passages. There is no denying the plagiarisms at this point, but another matter is How did an Eck Master contribute, or dictate them? And if there is no room for an Eck Master in that equation then they must be an invention and fiction of Paul Twitchell.

So what were the Eck Master's roles in all of the plagiarisms? the texts said to come from them? See what I am saying here? What is the truth? What is the true history?

These are questions Rob. Questions about things that have already happened, but that different people have different explanations for. This is not about what is my relationship with spirit, with the leader of Eckankar, with clergy and other members, or with Eckankar. This is about my questioning what was the role of Eck Masters like Rebazar Tarzs in the plagiarized writings said to be dictated by him. That's what it's about. That, and What about the Eckankar history was made up, or not true? So it is me asking those questions and remaining open to discuss the truth vs. the fiction. If you don't like it that I (as a member of Eckankar for over 30 years) ask such questions, then how will you feel when new people ask the same questions? Will you communicate with them as you have with me? Because if you do I fear it will drive them away.

Being on a spiritual path does not mean being brainwashed into believing things that aren't true. Not in my opinion. There was a time in the past when science and religion were more allied and even one and the same. There was truth in them and they were useful in that way. Some people might believe there can be no truth in religion, or that religion can't exist next to the truth. Personally, I don't see it that way. A path is something a person has to walk, and what one has to participate in. If there is no truth on one's spiritual path then the individual must have something to do with making it that way. Maybe just by believing there can be no truth in religion. As if to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That kind of thing. But a religion that intentionally creates fictions should not chastise people who question those fictions, or who ask Why are the fictions being treated as if literally true? Isn't that wrong?

[Etznab]

No. I don't ignore you Rob.

You, Rob, ignore what spirit has given and shown to me.

Imo, the way to resolve the issue about plagiarism and pseudo history is to stand up to liars like yourself, Kinpa, Azutmai and others who dare to tell people about their spiritual unfoldment.

[abonib...@gmail.com]

Eckankar was Dead On Arrival from the beginning.
Paulji "revealed" it as a vocation for the accompanying $$$$. Gail attested to it.
Darji was enthusiastically being the "Mahanta", but flattened out when he discovered all the LIES, courtesy of marriage to Gail, Paulji's wife!
Wah Z, propped by Peter's greedy nature, acquiesced to a palace coup, for pecuniary reasons,and to help sustain the the LIES!

Eckankar's horse was long DEAD and rotten.
Wah Z has been exerting efforts over the years repacking and re-marketing rotten beef and maggots to the brainwashed who have eyes but refused to see, and also refused to consciously use their power of discernment to disentangle themselves from the FRAUD known as ECKANKAR, religion of LIES and DECEPTION!

The Great Cross Road awaits the students of Eckankar at the demise of The Greatest Schemer: Harold Klemp (Wah Z). His successor (no one is currently feasible - since all the trusted H.I s' are being assured by the Sugmad) would need NEW LIES to supercede all previous old fashioned lies!
In the event of all these happenings, coupled with the momentous awaking going on, Eckankar shall be LIQUIDATED!

[Henosis Sage]

I think Ford did a great service to many people. Created a rush tot eh exiut doors, and that was a goiod thing.

It doesn;t matter if he had it all 100% right himself or not. That he raised the issue and many long term eckists faced that issue square on was a good thing.

now it will go one and once HK goes another mass exodus wil ocur, it will force peope to more seriously look at what's being offered. and then it will go one and other will spin other even cheaper copies of PT put toghether decades ago.

Nothing much will shift until groups like these and all religions no longer have the financial advantage of the Tax concessions for being "deemed" a religion in the first place.

I think those religions doing social services, running schools and other charity work should have some kind of "govt support" for doing what they are specifically doing .. it does save the govt/people money ... but this across the board Tax Free status is what is keeping them alive, eckankar included, and especially because they off nothing to society ... my philosophy of NO tax concessions also applies to political orientated Think Tanks and PACs btw ...

my personal opinion is that it would be a good thing, a better thing if Eckankar was declared a non-religion, and shutdown, and liquidated to partially repay to the Govts (ie PEOPLE) all their tax concessions they have obtained since 1970.

But there are still THOUSANDS (and much worse examples) the same thing should be done to as well.

[Etznab]

That was from my second post on this thread.

Rob calls plagiarism a "side-show" and that he doesn't have time for it. I say this is looking at Rebazar Tarzs and how that name was / is used to disguise copied texts; some of which STILL USED not only by Eckankar, but a host of other groups and individuals who believe the words came from Rebazar Tarzs.