The Living ECK Master
Susan Savastinuk
I want to attempt to make a general statement about the debate over
ECKANKAR which has been alive pretty much since the newsgroup was formed.
The basic issue is:
Is the Living ECK Master who he claims to be?
I think that answering this question lies at the heart of the ECKANKAR
chela's (student) life inside ECKANKAR. It certainly is a large issue
in the mind of the newcomer to ECK.
Just one quick point that the Living ECK Master rarely comes right out
and says this. In most of the literature, he is referred to in the
third person.
What is it that the Living ECK Master may or may not be?
ECKANKAR claims that he (usually he) is the main conduit for the ECK
(life) force into the physical world. He can initiate souls into the
sound current which gives them knowledge and power (and much
responsibility).
His responsibility is to help souls find their way back to God. Everything
he does should be viewed in light of that purpose.
ECKists - is this a good summary of the Living ECK Master's purpose?
What would you add or subtract?
For those who think the Living ECK Master is not who he claims to be, do
you agree that this is at the heart of the discussion about the truth of
ECKANKAR?
And for the newcomer or the seeker, here is the summary of the teachings
of ECKANKAR, which gets posted every few weeks or so:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECKANKAR
Religion of the Light and Sound of God
Eckankar can bring you direct personal experience with the Light
and Sound of God--with this comes greater spiritual awareness. And with
greater awareness you can be closer to God and live a happier, more
satisfying life.
What is the Light and Sound of God?
Often called the Holy Spirit, the Light and Sound are twin aspects
of God. Known in Eckankar as the ECK, It sustains all life.
The Light of God has appeared to many saints and mystics. Saul of
Tarsus had a dramatic encounter with the Light of God on the road to
Damascus. Moses saw It in the burning bush.
Eckankar teaches how to recognize the Light of God. Sometimes It
comes as an inner Light of God. Sometimes It comes as an inner scene or
vision. It can be a flash of blue or white light. It appears in many
ways.
The Sound of God was the rushing wind that visited the disciples
during Pentecost. Some hear It inwardly. It can be heard as rushing
water; the single note of a flute; the music of violins, woodwinds, or
bagpipes; or even the buzzing of bees.
What does ECKANKAR teach?
Eckankar teaches simple spiritual exercises to experience the Light
and Sound of God. These exercises also help us Soul Travel, to move
into greater states of consciousness. A spiritual exercise can be as
simple as relaxing and singing the word HU, an ancient name for God. As
we practice these spiritual exercises, we learn to recognize the
presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We learn that each of us is
Soul, a spark of God sent to this world to gain spiritual experience.
And as we unfold spiritually, we learn to express the love of God
through service to others.
Karma and reincarnation are primary beliefs in Eckankar. We build
up karma as a result of the spiritual law of cause and effect. The ECK
(Holy Spirit) helps us purify ourselves of karma (sin), making it
possible for us to accept the full love of God in this lifetime. We
gain wisdom, charity, and freedom.
Of all religions on earth today, Eckankar offers the most direct
teachings on the Light and Sound of God. For people who experience
these twin pillars of God, life becomes fresh and new again.
Who is the spiritual leader of ECKANKAR?
Harold Klemp is the spiritual leader of Eckankar today. He was
raised on a Wisconsin farm and spent years at a divinity school. In the
1960s, he found the teachings of Eckankar. In 1981, after years of
spiritual training, Harold Klemp became the Mahanta, the Living ECK
Master. The Mahanta is the inner, or spiritual, form of the Living ECK
Master. The Mahanta gives inner guidance through dreams, Soul Travel,
and the Spiritual Exercises of ECK.
Eckankar always has a living Master, who is given respect but not
worship. Like a master craftsman, he helps spiritual apprentices gain
experience in the Light and Sound. This leads to spiritual self-
confidence and freedom.
Harold Klemp speaks to thousands of seekers at ECK seminars around
the world each year. Some forty videocassettes and fifty audiocassettes
of his public talks are available. Author of more than twenty books, he
continues to write, including many articles and spiritual-study
discourses. Harold Klemp's inspiring and practical approach to
spirituality helps thousands of people find greater freedom, wisdom, and
love. His teachings uplift and help them recognize their own
experiences with the Light and Sound of God.
Where did ECKANKAR come from?
Saints, mystics, and religious aspirants have long spoken of the
Light and Sound of God. These teachings can be traced throughout the
spiritual history of the world. The ECK teachings of the Light and
Sound have been passed on to spiritual seekers by ECK Masters since
before recorded history.
Although the ECK teachings have ancient roots, Eckankar was
introduced as a modern-day religion in 1965 by Paul Twitchell. Paul was
born in Kentucky in the early part of this century. He served in the
U.S. Navy during World War II.
A seeker from an early age, he was introduced to a group of
spiritual masters who would change the course of his life. These were
the Vairagi ECK Masters. While they trained Paul to become the Living
ECK Master, he explored a wide range of spiritual traditions under
different teachers. The high teachings of ECK had been scattered to the
four corners of the world. Paul gathered these golden teachings of
Light and Sound and made them readily available to us. By 1965, Paul
was offering Soul Travel workshops to the public. He wrote many books
on Eckankar and the Light and Sound of God. Perhaps the best known is
"ECKANKAR--The Key to Secret Worlds."
Today, Eckankar is a nonprofit religious organization and church
which has members in over one hundred countries. The spiritual home of
Eckankar is the Temple of ECK in Chanhassen, Minnesota.
Who can be an ECKist?
ECKists come from all walks of life. ECKists are homemakers,
business people, and retirees. They are professionals, educators,
scientists, and farmers. They come from all age-groups, all races and
nationalities, and all religious backgrounds.
Like most people, ECKists have families, careers, and daily
struggles. They live a life of joyful participation in the mainstream
of society.
ECKists know they're responsible for their own experiences in life.
They know tomorrow is the result of today's thoughts, feelings, and
actions. They also know that giving love and service to their family
and community is one way to increase their understanding of God's love.
How do I become a member?
You can request membership information by writing to the following
address:
ECKANKAR
PO Box 27300
Minneapolis, MN 55427 U.S.A.
Spiritual training and experience come in many ways with Eckankar
membership, including study of the monthly ECK discourses. Written by
the spiritual leader of Eckankar, these sacred letters have a language
and rhythm that awaken Soul to the possibilities for spiritual growth.
Within each discourse are spiritual exercises that bring deeper insights
into your life.
Members work toward higher states of awareness through the Eckankar
initiations. The ECK initiations link Soul directly to the ECK, Divine
Spirit, for spiritual liberation in this lifetime. ECKists take at
least two years to explore the ECK teachings to prove to themselves what
Eckankar has to offer. After two years a person may decide to make a
deeper commitment to their spiritual awakening through initiation in
ECK. Initiation brings ever-increasing knowledge and love for God, and
meaning to daily life.
With each year of membership, you will receive monthly lessons for
your personal study. You can also join an ECK Satsang class studying
any discourse series you have received. ECK classes offer a comfortable
setting in which class members can share experiences, insights, and
questions.
*********
Copyright c 1993 ECKANKAR. All rights reserved. The terms ECKANKAR,
ECK, EK, MAHANTA, SOUL TRAVEL, and VAIRAGI, among others, are trademarks
of ECKANKAR.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Bahr
SS.ECKANKAR claims that he (usually he) is the main conduit for the ECK
SS.(life) force into the physical world. He can initiate souls into the
SS.sound current which gives them knowledge and power (and much
SS.responsibility).
Hello Susan,
I think we are all conduits for spirit, differing only in clarity. I
think there is a power that sustains us all. People have given this
power many different names over the years. The sound current is one. I
think the mistake Eckankar makes, is to claim that the Living Eck Master
has to connect someone with the sound current in order for them to
experience it. I don't believe this to be true. I can remember hearing
the sound when I was a child, long before I ever heard of Eckankar. IMO,
the sound current is an aspect of Spirit that is always available to
everyone, not just a select few. It is there for anyone willing to
listen. Many paths think their guru is the main conduit for Spirit.
Obviously, they can not all be. We are all channels. Some are just
clearer then others.
SS.His responsibility is to help souls find their way back to God. Everything
SS.he does should be viewed in light of that purpose.
Even with no help, we will all eventually get where we are going. I
think we can get their a faster with the help of a good teacher.
It's important to pick someone that will help us rather than hinder us.
I think it would be better to have no teacher than to pick the wrong
one. But yet, I feel it's worth the chance. Just be careful.
SS.For those who think the Living ECK Master is not who he claims to be, do
SS.you agree that this is at the heart of the discussion about the truth of
SS.ECKANKAR?
This is probably one of the main issues, but certainly not the only one.
I, for one, do not believe that Harold Klemp is what he claims to be.
He and Eckankar are basing his authority on his possessing the rod of
Eck power. Let's see if we can trace the origins of this mysterious rod
of power. Harold claims to have gotten it from Darwin Gross. Darwin
claims to have gotten it from Paul Twitchell. Twitchell claims to have
gotten it from Rebazar Tarzs, the four hundred year old monk that still
lives in a human body. I don't know who Eckankar claims that Tarzs got
it from, but does it really matter? They can't even prove that Tarzs
exists. To my knowledge, no one has ever even seen him. I have brought
up this point before, but so far, no one has been able to offer a
satisfactory explanation. Why not? Could it possibly be, that the answer
is one that Eckankar doesn't want told? After examining the evidence,
(some of it being the fact that many things said, attributed to Rebazar
Tarz, were later found to be plagiarized from other author's work) I
think that answer is this: Rebazar Tarzs is a completely fictitious
character created by Paul Twitchell.
OK, so far we have traced the Rod of Eck Power back to Rebazar Tarzs.
Now if Tarzs is not real, and he was the one who supposedly handed the
Rod of Power to Twitchell, what does that tell us about the Rod of
Power? Only that it does not exist either. If Harold's power and
authority are a result of him holding the Rod of Eck Power, and it
doesn't exist, then obviously, neither does Harold's authority and
power.
Now we will always have the ones who will say that Rebazar Tarz is real
but doesn't want to show himself for this or that reason. He really is
over four hundred years old and lives in a little hut somewhere in
Tibet. You can only visit him via soul travel, so of course no one can
see him. Out of all the People in the world he picked a liar and
plagiarizer like Paul Twitchel to carry the ancient teachings of Eck into
the world.
I am not addressing this type of person in my postings. They are living
in some fantasyland of their own, and Eckankar's making. I am
addressing this and all my letters to the people who have not yet handed
over their reasoning capabilities, along with their money, to the
organization of Eckankar.
Peace,
Brad
---
. QMPro 1.52 . brad...@corpsoft.com
----
+-------------------------------------------------+
| CorpSoft BBS - Romeoville, IL - (815) 886-3233 |
+-------------------------------------------------+
Lorraine Venner
The Living ECK Master to helps me find the Mahanta
(the inner form of the Living ECK Master). His talks are inspiring
as well as love filled -- helping me understand new concepts
and open my awareness.
I've found answers to questions, guidance and lots of love through the
Mahanta. It feels like I always have a friend and teacher at
all times. This inner guidance helps me understand the situations
in my life, gives me feedback as to what I am doing and helps me
listen to what Spirit is guuiding me to do.
In summary:
For me, both forms of the Mahanta are needed --
the outer form gives me down to earth exercises to get to the inner
the inner form shows me the way home to God.
Love,
Lorraine Venner
Gunnar
>Just one quick point that the Living ECK Master rarely comes right out
>and says this.
It's not so rare. He says it often enough. It's documented as well
as tape-recorded. Also, I've seen Harold make these claims personally.
Plus telling a second person to tell others that you are this and
that isn't better than saying it yourself, yes it is even worse
because sneaky and not honest.
>For those who think the Living ECK Master is not who he claims to be, do
>you agree that this is at the heart of the discussion about the truth of
>ECKANKAR?
Yes, since the teachings themselves are unhealthy in many ways,
for example because
1. they are confusing and contradictory, forcing followers to
accept the contradictions (see initiation vow on the Shariyat,
the direct commands in the writings themselves)
2. they create fears in and control over people's minds.
3. they are put-downish towards all other traditions while
being totally false in their descriptions of them.
The list would go on if I hadn't said it all before.
Gunnar
Bill Martens
> ... They can't even prove that Tarzs
>exists. To my knowledge, no one has ever even seen him. I have brought
>up this point before, but so far, no one has been able to offer a
> ... I
>think that answer is this: Rebazar Tarzs is a completely fictitious
>character created by Paul Twitchell.
>
>
>Brad
>
>---
I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that I knew of at least two
different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
Are we only interested in the evidence that supports our present view of
the 'TRUTH' or are we REAL seekers?
Just a thought...
-William Martens
Gunnar
>I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that I knew of at least two
What do you mean at least ? Do you know of two ? If you know
more then you'd know and could tell us. Anyway...
>different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
>Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
>would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
I haven't seen that proposal of yours before, so please give the
exact details of your knowledge of those encounters, including how
well you know those persons and how you can make their reliability
as well as their capacity for self-critical testing seem credible
to us.
Do you still have contact with that one person you heard the story
from personally ? Can you make him give us an exact account of his
encounter ?
You know there's a lot of people claiming all sorts of things. One
person I know encounters all sorts of Eck Masters all the time, and from
these encounters he also "knew" that Darwin again became a member of
eckankar, the corporation :))))
>Are we only interested in the evidence that supports our present view of
>the 'TRUTH' or are we REAL seekers?
I am interested in real evidence if it is one. Show us what you have !
The eckankar office goes to lengths to create new "evidence". A short
time before I left the movement they spread this phoney photo of the
eck temple which showed a supposedly mysterious light shining on the
temple at night from the upper right hand corner and across the temple
down to the lower left hand side of the picture. A two-minute
inspection of that piece of Kitsch, however, revealed the picture as
taken in the middle of the day, then fanned off during laboratory
exposure, then re-shot, and then multiplied. So obviously, there's not
much ethics involved. If one wants to create a new myth, then at least
he should put in enough effort to not make it so easily unmaskeable
for any 6th-grader.
>Just a thought...
Just an answer.
Hoping to see the evidence.
Gunnar
Susan Savastinuk
|> In article <432.57...@corpsoft.com> brad...@corpsoft.com (Brad Bahr) writes:
|> > ... They can't even prove that Tarzs
|> >exists. To my knowledge, no one has ever even seen him. I have brought
|> >up this point before, but so far, no one has been able to offer a
|> >satisfactory explanation. Why not? ...
|> > ... I
|> >think that answer is this: Rebazar Tarzs is a completely fictitious
|> >character created by Paul Twitchell.
|> >
|> >Peace,
|> >
|> >Brad
|> >
|> >---
|>
|> I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that I knew of at least two
|> different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
|> Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
|> would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
I was very curious, but figured that you would give more details if you
knew them. Yes, yes tell us more...
Brad Bahr
BM.different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
BM.Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
BM.would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
I thought you said those people saw Tarzs in a dream or inner
experience. Maybe I missed the post you are referring to. Could you
please repost it. There have been several messages that haven't gotten
through. This may have been one of them.
BM.Are we only interested in the evidence that supports our present view of
BM.the 'TRUTH' or are we REAL seekers?
I honestly don't remember seeing anything about physical contact. Either
I didn't get the message or I thought you were talking about the inner.
Bill Martens
>
>>I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that I knew of at least two
>
>What do you mean at least ? Do you know of two ? If you know
>more then you'd know and could tell us. Anyway.
I found my original reference...
Article 459 of alt.religion.eckankar:
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
From: martens%binford.c...@cs.utah.edu (Bill Martens)
Subject: Re: More Conclusions
Date: 24 Feb 94 21:48:02 MST
Sender: William Martens
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science
In article <214.57...@corpsoft.com> brad...@corpsoft.com (Brad Bahr) wri\
tes:
... (much deleted)...
...(this is my own quote)... .... I have even known
of two different individuals (one of whom I met personally) who have
described physical, waking state contact with Rebazar Tarz. Who can say
for sure!?
>>different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
>>Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
>>would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
>
>exact details of your knowledge of those encounters, including how
>well you know those persons and how you can make their reliability
>as well as their capacity for self-critical testing seem credible
>to us.
The first instance was found in an article in a copy of the old EWN (Eck
World News Magazine) from the early 70's. I no longer have the magazine
to refer to. The story was about a fellow who claims to have met Rebazar
Tarz (he did not have any prior knowlege of Rebazar or Eckankar at the
time of this meeting) in the parking lot of the church he was attending.
Rebazar invited him to attend a meeting that Paul Twitchell was conducting
in a building across the street. And that was how he was introduced to
Eckankar.
>Do you still have contact with that one person you heard the story
>from personally ? Can you make him give us an exact account of his
>encounter ?
The second instance was related to me as part of an Eckankar workshop
called 'Meet The Masters' at the Anahiem Eckankar Convention in June of
1992. There were aproximate 20 people in the workshop. The facillitators
consisted of a man and his wife (I don't recall their names...a scholar
I am not!). The fellow related a story where he was a 'Center tender' at
the local Eckankar Center in San Diego, CA. A man came into the ECK
Center who looked just like Rebazar Tarz (according to his picture and
common Eckankar description). He walked around the Center making small
talk with the Center tender. The Center tender offered his hand for
Rebazar to shake and Rebazar responded somewhat hesitantly but then
accepted the offer to shake hands. Rebazar left the Canter shortly
there-after. The Center tender believes this incident to be a result
of his personal wish to meet an ECK Master in the flesh.
I will try and find this fellow's name/address and forward it to you.
The analytical psychologist in you should have a 'hay-day' picking these
(now 3rd-hand) stories appart...be that as it may. I offer these accounts
only to point out that there ARE accounts of 'close physical encounters'
that may be researched by by those interested. I appologize for not
taking better notes of these occations...you can be sure I will in the
future :-)
>>Are we only interested in the evidence that supports our present view of
>>the 'TRUTH' or are we REAL seekers?
>
>I am interested in real evidence if it is one. Show us what you have !
>
>Hoping to see the evidence.
>Gunnar
Thanks,
William Martens
Gunnar
>The first instance was found in an article in a copy of the old EWN (Eck
>World News Magazine) from the early 70's.
Excuse me, calling "information" from an EWN letter "evidence",
doesn't that seem really strange even to yourself ? Come on...I
personally know one person who made one experience with "Tarzs" public
in the "Letter of Light" a number of years ago and who now admits that
that encounter was never as convincingly clearly Tarzs as he had
described in the article. PLUS the articles keep being edited to
eradicate the last sources of doubt. Some stories are downright
invented.
>I no longer have the magazine
>to refer to. The story was about a fellow who claims to have met Rebazar
>Tarz (he did not have any prior knowlege of Rebazar or Eckankar at the
>time of this meeting) in the parking lot of the church he was attending.
We'd have to get the fellow talk on the net today before we can even
begin to test his report on its quality as evidence. A thousand very
vague cases doesn't make even one piece of evidence.
>Rebazar invited him to attend a meeting that Paul Twitchell was
>conducting in a building across the street. And that was how he was
>introduced to Eckankar.
It was probably Galib Yilmabazar, he looks a bit like the painting
of Rebazar Tarzs :)
So please, I asked for EVIDENCE !!!
>The fellow related a story where he was a 'Center tender' at
>the local Eckankar Center in San Diego, CA. A man came into the ECK
>Center who looked just like Rebazar Tarz (according to his picture and
>common Eckankar description).
Bill. Is this "evidence" ? Looked like Tarzs according to the picture.
Please look at the picture and tell me how unique that face is. Give
me a rough estimation on how many people in the world would fit in
with that picture. If you ask me, I'd say, at least one out of ten
thousand of the Spanish male population would. That would amount up to
at least 10 000 people on the planet of Spanish decent only, which
could go for Tarzs in the view of one who wants to believe.
If your aquaintance would have been sure that the man had been Tarzs,
why didn't he prompt him for that ? Why didn't he say "Oh Tarzsji, how
nice to meet you" and ask for his blessing. Wouldn't that be the
natural joyful reaction of a chela who recognizes a master in his
lineage ? What would have been wrong with that ? I can tell you: the
fellow didn't want to see his dream shattered by getting proof that
the guy is not Tarzs. He really didn't recognize Tarzs at all, and how
could you, when all you have are those comic-book pictures.
>He walked around the Center making small
>talk with the Center tender. The Center tender offered his hand for
>Rebazar to shake and Rebazar responded somewhat hesitantly but then
>accepted the offer to shake hands. Rebazar left the Canter shortly
>there-after. The Center tender believes this incident to be a result
>of his personal wish to meet an ECK Master in the flesh.
Ok, here's an Eckist with a personal wish to meet an Eck Master in the
flesh. All-knowing Tarzs comes along to fulfill that wish and accepted
the shake-hand HESITANTLY ??????? Come on, Bill, let's use common
sense. That man was surprised by that unmotivated hand-shake offer,
slightly enstranged, and left pretty soon. If you were Tarzs and would
show up to satisfy the man's wish, why wouldn't you act a little more
unmistakeable ? Doesn't make much sense, Bill, besides you'd agree by
now that that wouldn't pass for "evidence".
>I will try and findthat wouldn't pass for "evidence".
>I will try and find this fellow's name/address and forward it to you.
Spare me, I've seen "evidence" of that kind myself.
>I appologize for not
>taking better notes of these occations...
That's ok, you should apologize for calling that "evidence".
>you can be sure I will in the
>future :-)
Yes, please do so. Ask the persons very precise questions, some can
remember the size of the person, particular marks, and so on. You'll
"find" much less. Then, if you get to some core cases, look at the
person's character. Is it reliable ? Is his a sound mind. Can he
recognize faces pretty well ? My mother, e.g., wouldn't know the actor
who played Spok in Star Trek (what was his name ?) from David Caradine,
even with glasses on, that's not an exaggeration.
Then we can take a closer look and begin with investigation, which
when tested may yield evidence. There's not one such case in the
history of eckankar, or eckankar would have made it public, as they do
with all those other experiences.
Cheers
Gunnar
Bill Martens
>BM.I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that I knew of at least two
>BM.different people who claim to have had physical contact with Rebazar
>BM.Tarz, one of whom I heard his story persoanlly. I waited to see if anyone
>BM.would respond with a request to know more of the details but no one did.
>
>I thought you said those people saw Tarzs in a dream or inner
>experience. Maybe I missed the post you are referring to. Could you
>please repost it. There have been several messages that haven't gotten
>through. This may have been one of them.
>
>BM.Are we only interested in the evidence that supports our present view of
>BM.the 'TRUTH' or are we REAL seekers?
>
>I honestly don't remember seeing anything about physical contact. Either
>I didn't get the message or I thought you were talking about the inner.
>
>
>Peace,
>
I also refered to some inner exteriences...
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
From: martens%binford.c...@cs.utah.edu (Bill Martens)
Subject: Re: More Conclusions
Date: 22 Feb 94 09:29:27 MST
Sender: William Martens
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science
In article <193.57...@corpsoft.com> brad...@corpsoft.com (Brad Bahr)
writes:...(much deleted)...
...(myself quoting)...
A non-ECK friend of mine who had no previous experience or knowledge of
Eckankar (except what I had shared with her verbally from tiome to time)
spontaniuosly (without any promting from me) regognized my picture of
Rebazar Tarz on my apartment wall as someone who she had seen in her
inner experiences.
Another friend of mine had her daughter point to the picture of
Rebazar Tarz and report that she had seen him in her dreams on a
number of occations.
Here is the reference to physical contact...
alt.religion.eckankar:
Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar
From: martens%binford.c...@cs.utah.edu (Bill Martens)
Subject: Re: More Conclusions
Date: 24 Feb 94 21:48:02 MST
Sender: William Martens
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science
In article <214.57...@corpsoft.com> brad...@corpsoft.com (Brad Bahr)
writes:
I admit the possibility of your conclusions stated above. I also admit
the possibility of the conclusions stated by people who claim to have had
personal experiences with the traditional ECK Masters. I have even known
of two different individuals (one of whom I met personally) who have
described physical, waking sArticle 459 of tate contact with Rebazar Tarz.
Who can say for sure!?
-William Martens
Brad Bahr
BM.the possibility of the conclusions stated by people who claim to have had
BM.personal experiences with the traditional ECK Masters. I have even known
BM.of two different individuals (one of whom I met personally) who have
BM.described physical, waking sArticle 459 of tate contact with Rebazar Tarz.
BM.Who can say for sure!?
OK, thanks for the repost Bill.
I'm sure some people actually believe that they saw Tarzs. Probably,
because they sincerely wanted to see him. What I am looking for though,
is some sort of physical evidence of his existence. I personally am
convinced that Paul just made him up.
Bill Martens
>
>
>
>>The fellow related a story where he was a 'Center tender' at
>>the local Eckankar Center in San Diego, CA. A man came into the ECK
>>Center who looked just like Rebazar Tarz (according to his picture and
>>common Eckankar description).
>
>Bill. Is this "evidence" ? Looked like Tarzs according to the picture.
>Please look at the picture and tell me how unique that face is. Give
>me a rough estimation on how many people in the world would fit in
>with that picture. If you ask me, I'd say, at least one out of ten
>thousand of the Spanish male population would. That would amount up to
>at least 10 000 people on the planet of Spanish decent only, which
>could go for Tarzs in the view of one who wants to believe.
The Center tender simply said his visitor looked like Rebazar Tarz.
I added the part about his picture and description because what else
could one base his recognition on if you did not have a previous
acquaintance?
>If your aquaintance would have been sure that the man had been Tarzs,
>why didn't he prompt him for that ? Why didn't he say "Oh Tarzsji, how
>nice to meet you" and ask for his blessing. Wouldn't that be the
>natural joyful reaction of a chela who recognizes a master in his
>lineage ? What would have been wrong with that ? I can tell you: the
>fellow didn't want to see his dream shattered by getting proof that
>the guy is not Tarzs. He really didn't recognize Tarzs at all, and how
>could you, when all you have are those comic-book pictures.
Psychologists are even better than mind-readers...they can read motives
as well!
>>He walked around the Center making small
>>talk with the Center tender. The Center tender offered his hand for
>>Rebazar to shake and Rebazar responded somewhat hesitantly but then
>>accepted the offer to shake hands. Rebazar left the Canter shortly
>>there-after. The Center tender believes this incident to be a result
>>of his personal wish to meet an ECK Master in the flesh.
>
>Ok, here's an Eckist with a personal wish to meet an Eck Master in the
>flesh. All-knowing Tarzs comes along to fulfill that wish and accepted
>the shake-hand HESITANTLY ??????? Come on, Bill, let's use common
>sense. That man was surprised by that unmotivated hand-shake offer,
>slightly enstranged, and left pretty soon. If you were Tarzs and would
>show up to satisfy the man's wish, why wouldn't you act a little more
>unmistakeable ? Doesn't make much sense, Bill, besides you'd agree by
>now that that wouldn't pass for "evidence".
The hand shaking was done in a very uncharacteristic way from a normal
stranger. When the Center tender extended his hand it was to confirm
the 'physicalness' of Rebazar. Rebazar responded with "well, OK". after
a moment's hesitation (it is hard to relate the 'way' the story was told,
especially third hand).
A true Master is carefull about confirming too much for the chela. He
will always leave a 'back door' open for a person who chooses not to
believe an experience.
Rebazar also made some curious comments about the different Master's
pictures on display at the Center but I honestly don't remember the
details.
>Cheers
>Gunnar
As I said in my last post I offer these accounts simply to point out
that there ARE people who claim to have had physical experiences with
some of the ECK Masters. It is NOT the total vacume of evidence that
Gunner & Co would have us believe!
I hope I have not violated the rights of the workshop facillitor by
sharing parts of his story 'out of class' so to speak. I do not
mean to imply that I have represented his story either completely or
even totally acurately, I am relating what I remember from memory.
May the Bessings Be.
-William Martens
Gunnar
>pictures on display at the Center but I honestly don't remember the
>details.
No details, no evidence.
>It is NOT the total vacume of evidence that
>Gunner & Co would have us believe!
It's a bunch of vague tales, not one piece of actual evidence.
Gunnar
PeterS9731
rei...@rz.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de (Gunnar) writes:
>It was probably Galib Yilmabazar, he looks a bit like the painting
>of Rebazar Tarzs :)
Hey, you know Galib? He's a friend of mine!
Gunnar
>Hey, you know Galib? He's a friend of mine!
Yes, I know him, but he doesn't recall who I am.
Hey, let's find out who else we all know. I'll
post a list of Eckists you might now, that I think of
as nice people. I'll follow it up when another one
comes to mind. Let's see how small the world is.
You guys can do the same.
Cheers
Gunnar