Cerna
Searles O'Dubhain
Cernunnos, in Ireland; or to be merely a name for a place in Ireland.
Using the name as place idea, I searched and found the dindshechas
about Cerna which basically tells the story of the place and the
person for whom it is named (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T106500D/
text052.html). The Hill of Cerna is evidently considered to be named
for the son of Cairpre, a satirist/poet of the Tuatha Dé Danann listed
in the Second Battle of Moytura and the son of Ogma and Étan.
In other sources (Folklore, Volume 3 By Folklore Society (Great
Britain), p. 512) Cerna is referenced as being the chief burial place
of the east of Meath and Bregia (this is near where my ancest6rs lived
near Knowth). None of the sources that I found, referring to Cerna as
being a person, suggests that he is a Horned God or even has horns.
The idea that the place was a graveyard might suggest the possibility
that he is a guardian of the dead. His father was an Otherworldly poet
and his gradparent were known as deities of poetry and craftsmanship,
His grandfather, Ogma, was the god of eloquence and the champion of
the Tuatha Dé Danann, a son of the Dagda:. His grandmother's father
was said to be Diancecht, the god of medicine. I'd like to find out
more about the "evil beast of Cerna" mentioned in other tales. An
association of him with certain animals and a major graveyard might
suggest he is like the "Lord of the Animals" still. The problem with
traying to identify Cerna is that he is not mentioned in a more han
passing fashion in any of the tales so that a description of him is
necessarily sketchy and incomplete.
Here is what the dindshenchas on Cerna has to say (from UCC's CELT
resource):
CERNA
Though here we sit a while on the hill of Cerna, where troops find
quarters, yonder in stern Cerna lie a multitude whose heart was set on
pride.
There is nimble Cerna, a lad that bore off victory across the battle-
breach, whose true father was Cairpre that won many a match in smooth
poesy.
There is Femen the fair, and Gemen from the dark Glen, and Artan, that
lofty chieftain, and Marcan son of Donngaile.
There is Fingen—attend! one that shaped aright each keen judgement;
and Guaire, pure-handed, skilful and polished, and Baesach son of
Tollchend.
There till the final doom rest a pair free from stain, free from word
of blame, Find that scattered gifts in famous wise, unflinching, and
Derg, his brother.
There is the champion Neide, and Geide and Garb and Gartnia: there
till now is the host-attended warrior Aldui Lamb-head, son of
Iarlaithe.
There is Cian, the unwearied, and broad-backed Casan, Dub Da Chonn,
that walked not blindly, and Bresal of the land of Brega.
There are the three Aeds, Aed ua Temna, no tender minion, Aed ua
Huaine, beloved staff, and Aed donn, the hard-travailing.
There is sweet-spoken Bennan, and bright Loingthe of the merry-lays,
and the traveller Berr son of Erc, and wry Conan the hundred-slayer.
There is Detla next and Cetna, proud in battle, Aldui that dealt no
man a second stroke, and Cathgen, battle-enriched.
There are the four Garbs, Garb of the Glen and Garb son of Scarb, Garb
rige of the bold raids, and crooked Garb from old Sliab Crot.
There is Guala the white-skinned, and Goll son of Da Gemned, and Fiach—
a shield guarding Falga—and Slanga son of Dubthach.
There is Tuathal from of old, and Tipraite Broad-foot, and Bruach of
Brega—sweet name—and Trena son of Loiscend.
There is the seer Fuatach and Sithchend, fortune's favourite, and
Faidech head of the family, and worthy Laidech, accomplished poet.
Loingsech son of Oengus is there with Eochaid of Lemain, wielder of
blades, and comely Niall, Cernach's son, who caused sore grief in the
plain of Brega.
There is noble Aed Slaine and Conall, slim-flanked Calf of Brega, and
young Oengus of Odba and worshipful Congal, fair pillar.
There is splendid Ailill, Diarmait, Blathmac that never paled,
Sechnasach, ever affable, and Conaing son of Congaile.
There is Irgalach—set on! and the two Amalgaids and sweet-spoken
Cendfaelad of Brega and Finnachta fledach, lavish and merry.
Cinaed son of Irgalach is there, and Flaithbertach of the shoutings,
and Cernach, continually, and shapely Dunchad of the Dael.
Too many to number in full are the joyous yellow-haired host that lie
beneath Cerna, stooping home of hundreds, men of Conn's line that made
it great by war.
His wife lies under the cloak of each man of the host I have
enumerated thus far, on Cerna's hill, hundred-strong, in splendour and
in beauty.
I pledge a word that is no small boast, that for every goodly man we
name, in sooth, there are a hundred as good in Cerna—were there any
one that could call them to mind.
Cerna, famous foeman, 'tis he is first among them in his home; his
right appellation, by noble conjunction, is Cerniam.
From him comes for utterance in the north the appellation of Cerua,
with its hundred gifts, best of all pledges for fulfilment of prayer,
though here we sit continually.
O King of unfailing loving-kindness, by thy holiness and mighty power
may we reach Heaven of the clear promises, though here a while we sit.
1X2Willows
> Cerna has been variously said to be a name for the Horned God,
> Cernunnos, in Ireland; or to be merely a name for a place in Ireland.
> Using the name as place idea, I searched and found the dindshechas
> about Cerna which basically tells the story of the place and the
> person for whom it is named
> (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T106500D/ text052.html). The Hill
> of Cerna is evidently considered to be named for the son of Cairpre,
> of Moytura and the son of Ogma and �tan.
>
> In other sources (Folklore, Volume 3 By Folklore Society (Great
> Britain), p. 512) Cerna is referenced as being the chief burial place
> of the east of Meath and Bregia (this is near where my ancest6rs lived
> near Knowth). None of the sources that I found, referring to Cerna as
> being a person, suggests that he is a Horned God or even has horns.
> The idea that the place was a graveyard might suggest the possibility
> that he is a guardian of the dead. His father was an Otherworldly poet
> and his gradparent were known as deities of poetry and craftsmanship,
> His grandfather, Ogma, was the god of eloquence and the champion of
The four masters couldn't have made it up any better for their annals;
that other piece of Xtian propaganda.
An Coibhi Drui
> Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
> > Cerna has been variously said to be a name for the Horned God,
> > Cernunnos, in Ireland; or to be merely a name for a place in Ireland.
> > Using the name as place idea, I searched and found the dindshechas
> > about Cerna which basically tells the story of the place and the
> > person for whom it is named
> > of Cerna is evidently considered to be named for the son of Cairpre,
> > of Moytura and the son of Ogma and Étan.
>
> > In other sources (Folklore, Volume 3 By Folklore Society (Great
> > Britain), p. 512) Cerna is referenced as being the chief burial place
> > of the east of Meath and Bregia (this is near where my ancest6rs lived
> > near Knowth). None of the sources that I found, referring to Cerna as
> > being a person, suggests that he is a Horned God or even has horns.
> > The idea that the place was a graveyard might suggest the possibility
> > that he is a guardian of the dead. His father was an Otherworldly poet
> > and his gradparent were known as deities of poetry and craftsmanship,
> > His grandfather, Ogma, was the god of eloquence and the champion of
>
> - Show quoted text -
What would you know, Cretin ?
Kent
wrote:
> What would you know, Cretin ?
Cretin;
Origin:
1770–80; < F; Franco-Provençal creitin, crestin human being, lit.,
Christian (hence one who is human despite deformities)
Dude, he just called you Christian!
1X2Willows
> On Oct 18, 8:53 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>>
>> The four masters couldn't have made it up any better for their
>> annals; that other piece of Xtian propaganda.
>
Compared to you and him and the other one? Not a single thing
about making shit up from delusions of grandure.
And neither about defending each other's made up shit as part of
the obvious agreement to mutually cover fraudulent ass.
1X2Willows
> On Oct 18, 12:56 pm, An Coibhi Drui <photographerofkilke...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> What would you know, Cretin ?
>
> Cretin;
> Origin:
> Christian (hence one who is human despite deformities)
>
> Dude, he just called you Christian!
What's new.
Nutty also calls me marxist and then some and ... YOU! :-D
Searles O'Dubhain
survives. There are three decent candidates based on their names:
Cerna
Conaill Cearnach
Fer Benn
Of course none of these guys plays a Cernnunos role in the literature
AFAICS. It's good that some much did survive so that I can enjoy a
continuing search. :-)
Searles
Kent
> Kent wrote:
> > On Oct 18, 12:56 pm, An Coibhi Drui <photographerofkilke...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> What would you know, Cretin ?
>
> > Cretin;
> > Origin:
> > Christian (hence one who is human despite deformities)
>
> > Dude, he just called you Christian!
>
> What's new.
> Nutty also calls me marxist and then some and ... YOU! :-D
Yeah, he just doesn't get it...does he?
Akins of that Ilk
Irish mythological sources? Here I am referring to the specific name
"Danu" and not one of the other similar forms of the name such as
Dana, Danand, Anu, Ana, Boana, etc.
Gaelic names tend to be open to interpretation where spelling is
concerned and the earlier, more pure forms of the name may not have
survived into the period in which they were finally written down by
the hands of christian scribes, who may not have been particularly
interested in preservation of explicitly Pagan details.
Kent
Well, enjoy your search. After all, that's what the "R" is in "CR"
for. None of it was handed to us on a silver platter, despite claims
of others.
1X2Willows
> On Oct 18, 1:54 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>> Kent wrote:
>>> On Oct 18, 12:56 pm, An Coibhi Drui
>>> <photographerofkilke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> What would you know, Cretin ?
>>
>>> Cretin;
>>> Origin:
>>> Christian (hence one who is human despite deformities)
>>
>>> Dude, he just called you Christian!
>>
>> What's new.
>> Nutty also calls me marxist and then some and ... YOU! :-D
>
> Yeah, he just doesn't get it...does he?
Probably time for another of his "two week vacations" if ye know what I mean
Searles O'Dubhain
I agree. Beware of facts on silver platters. I'll favor such a dish
more if it came out of the texts preserved at one of the Irish
Universities or at Oxford. They seem to have many texts that were
recovered with adequate provenance.
I suspect that tales of the devil have supplanted anything that would
have been useful in this quest in the Irish folklore.
I've been searching for about 20 years an have yet to find an Irish
Horned God. The trio of Cú Chulainn, Conal Cearnach and Cú Roí Mac
Daire definitely are enticing when looking for heroes representing the
three realms however.
Searles O'Dubhain
Akins of that Ilk
Searles, don't overlook the possibility of Derg Corra as well. There
is a good deal of details in his legend (Finn and the Man in the Tree)
to point toward Derg Corra being a late Irish survival of a Cernunnos
type deity, especially when compared with the iconography on the
Gundestrup cauldron and the Tarous Trigaranus reliefs from the Nautes
Altar in Paris.
1X2Willows
Pretty artefacts from an artistic point of view but where it comes
to origin [Thracian and Roman] as authentic Gallic as that "made in
China" green plastic hat on Paddy's Day is authentic Irish.
dorkfish!
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
news:hbgg9m$g8r$1...@news.albasani.net...
Personally I don't see why all the need for a "creation story." There are a
number of people out there who think the reason there is no "Celtic"
creation story is that it's assumed we've always been, without beginning and
therefore without ending. Contemplating the awesomeness of that has been
far deeper spiritually for me than subscribing to some bedtime story.
I also can't for the life of me understand why this need to have an Irish
"horned god" unless it's to make everything square up with the Wiccans.
Fortunately this isn't an issue in Brythonic country.
1X2Willows
> "1X2Willows" wrote
>> Akins of that Ilk wrote:
>>> On Oct 18, 4:30 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm just looking for a horned man or deity in Irish tradition that
>>>> survives. There are three decent candidates based on their names:
>>>>
>>>> Cerna
>>>>
>>>> Conaill Cearnach
>>>>
>>>> Fer Benn
>>>>
>>>> Of course none of these guys plays a Cernnunos role in the
>>>> literature AFAICS. It's good that some much did survive so that I
>>>> can enjoy a continuing search. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Searles
>>>
>>> Searles, don't overlook the possibility of Derg Corra as well. There
>>> is a good deal of details in his legend (Finn and the Man in the
>>> Tree) to point toward Derg Corra being a late Irish survival of a
>>> Cernunnos type deity, especially when compared with the iconography
>>> on the Gundestrup cauldron and the Tarous Trigaranus reliefs from
>>> the Nautes Altar in Paris.
>>
>> Pretty artefacts from an artistic point of view but where it comes
>> to origin [Thracian and Roman] as authentic Gallic as that "made in
>> China" green plastic hat on Paddy's Day is authentic Irish.
>>
>> dorkfish!
>>
>>
>
> Personally I don't see why all the need for a "creation story."
Coincidentally, the call to somebody... anybody! out there to make
one up went out on the White Power Stormfront board a few months
before Fakins' version came out.
Nice "coincidence", ennit
Searles O'Dubhain
wrote:
The name of Danu does not occur directly in any of the Irish tales but
is inferred from the genitive form of Danann in Tuatha Dé Dannan in a
similar form to the name of Domnu in its relationship to Domnann.
There is of course the name Danand that appears in CMT.
Searles O'Dubhain
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
No but the 3, or the TRI NI D TRI, did!
�
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
King Yue and the Tribes of the Fish, the "Salmon of the Ocean", are a far
better trail to follow.
Mahayana, the "Universal Religion" the one which allows your idea and mine.
They one which found a Child of the Gods which evolves the teachings.
The One formed by the Tribes os those who rode the Ass and the Colts of the
Ass.
Who is Gog and Magog?
"Beowulf"!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Bheares of Briton joined forces with the Highlanders of the Scoti in
the Battle against the Sea Peoples!
"The Red Hounds of Hel and the Brown Bheares of the Cave"
vs
"Blondie, White Boy and the Anal Retentive, Mother Fucking
Supremacists."!!!!
�
�
Searles O'Dubhain
wrote:
Fer Benn is one of the names the Dagda gives for himself in the
"naming games" of CMT with the Fomorian Princess. Specifically, the
first name of twenty that he gives is Fer Benn Brúach - Big Bellied
Horned Man.
Derg Corra is a good fit for a Nature deity or Man of the Woods since
he is always accompanied by a sag and usually by other animals like a
raven.
In some instances, even Fionn is seen as a kinf of Master of the Wild
Hunt similar but different from Gwynn ap Nudd of Welsh legends.
Searles O'Dubhain
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Thracian is Gaelic!
Roman?
NO!
Yuezhi maybe.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Gaelic on the other hand have the tale of:
"The Day We Broke the World"!
Which is the Basis for the Tales of Knowledge being Evil, and why Satan (The
Angel of Knowledge) was finally deemed Evil.
Was intended fro preventing Man from engaging in Nuke Tech.
Didn't work.
We're all dead.
Some day, some Rabid "Terrorist" will push the Button.
�
�
Akins of that Ilk
>
> - Show quoted text -
You obviously haven't studied the extent to which the Gauls migrated
in Eastern Europe and the Near East. They were in Thrace itself, as
well as Turkey for centuries. If you want to be specific about the
tribal origin of the Gundestrup Cauldron, it belonged to the Cimbri,
who settled in the Jutland peninsula. Compare the Gundestrup Cauldron
with other Gallic artifacts portraying Cernunnos, such as the stella
from Reimes, and the Nautes Pillar from Paris, as they both depict
Cernunnos in almost identical detail.
Akins of that Ilk
So the name "Danu" has never been found - not even once - in all of
Ireland's early and medieval literature? Not even once, it is only
"implied"? Yet, it is accepted by the multitudes as a fact? The same
masses who would cast doubt and derrision of the thought of Cerna
being the name of an Irish pagan deity? Why do you think this is the
case? Is it because the notion that Danu is "implied" as being the
proper name of a goddess (who is always named something else) was
introduced so long ago that it somehow beat the deadline of
credibility? Is it because it was "implied" by some egg-head with a
scrap of paper framed on his wall with a tin-foil seal from some
University that he paid thousands of dollars to attend in his youth?
How gullible are the masses who would think this way?
Akins of that Ilk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Let us not forget Donn Mac Midir, who can transform himself into a
stag, as well. In fact, the Lebor Feasa Runda implies a triplicity in
which Samthainn/Cerna/Donn are three aspects of the same entity, like
Nemain/Macha/Badb = Morrigan - a deity who was herslf part of another
triplicity of Brighid/Dana/Morrigu, covering the tree aspects of the
maiden/mother/crone motif as symbolic of fertility/bounty/decline.
Searles O'Dubhain
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is mainly the nomenative "Danu" of the genitive "Danann." One
names follows from the other from the rules governing Old-Irish
syntax.I could not tell you why the name is not listed in the
literature as Danu other than to say that it is also equated with Anu
and Ana from Cormac's Glossary. Anu is said to be the "Mother Goddess"
and her "Paps" are known far and wide as a part of the Irish lanscape.
Who knows?
There's also not any mention of Domnu directly as I recall other than
from her son's name of Indech De Domnann. It is Domnu's granddaughter
who has ritualk intercourse with the Dagda during the "naming game" at
CMT2. She isn't named either but is a major factor in determining the
victory.
As to the name of Cerna, it is given to several individuals and a
place in Irish tradition. AFAICS it is not closely tied to a "Horned
God" except through the meanings of the root word in the name. There
are several individuals with the root in their names and none of them
is actively portrayed as a Horned God either. Why is there no tale in
the Irish literature of Cerna as a Horned God"? Why is there also no
mention of a Horned God in Irish literature? Your guess is as good as
mine.My guess is that the monks erased him from the literature because
he seemed to be the Devil. Probably any folklore that survives has the
Devil in the place of the Horned God. Can you source an example where
a Devil actually seems toi be a Horned God in the Celtic sense in
Irish literature or folklore?
Searles O'Dubhain
An Coibhi Drui
The beloved, the most powerful goddess of the Province of Munster n
Ireland, is Aine, Aine Gheal, the Bright Ann in English, who is the
house mistress of Lough Gur, whose womb gives birth there , who
breasts are the Paps of Anu ( or Aine ) futher south between Cork and
Kerry , thus she straddles across West Munster ( upside down ! ) .
I am of Munster, my Umpteenth Great Grandfather being Brian Boru, the
famous High King of Ireland, I descend directly from Brian Boru's
grandson , Cra, thus MacCraith, MacGrath, Magrath - ' Son' of Cra . We
were and are of the Dalgassian - same clan as the late departed Jim -
he would be a distant cousin !
Before that we were Druids of Munster associated with Mogruith of
Valentia, by Brian Boru we were given lands around the Rock of
Cashel, and by sunsequent Kings of Munster all our lands across
Waterford and Tipperary counties today.
I still have land in the Comeragh Mountains of Waterford, Portlairge
( 30 acres) inherited from my late father - it is at Rathgormack
there, Rath O gCormach , in the territories of the MacCraith of the
Clanna Bui whose stronghold is Sleady Castle some miles to the west,
thus we are always referred to locally as the ' Castle McGraths ' !
That is how we existed, businessmen, wheelers and dealers, cattle
jobbers - and cattle raiders too, we never cared for whatever Church
was in power, we used them all, we did business with them all no
matter who they were, conqueror or conquered, Protestant, Catholic or
pagan or non-believed, we never cared - and thus today we still are
people of money and business, especially my immediate family .
But not without influence, for the McGrath fair maidens always married
into the families of the rich and powerful, the Norman De La Poers
( Power), the English Beresfords ( Peter Berresford-Ellis' people, our
neighbours) and today in Kilkenny, the Aylwards., one of my sister
married into the Aylward family of South Kilkenny ( Bobby Aylward TD,
Dail Eireann, and Liam Aylward his brother, Member of the European
Parliament ) who remain after 35 years my close and trusted friends -
of course I'm Fianna Fail :-)
That's why I look down on the likes of Dan and Noinden here as Rejects
and Peasants !
By clan I am related to Bertie Ahern , former Irish Taoiseach -
Berie's noble ancestor was Ahearne, older brother of Brian Boru who
fell in battle, thus Bertie iis also Dalgassian ( of which the
MacCraith of the Clanna Bui are a sept ! ) .
So Bertie would be my Grand uncle, heh heh heh .
Cheers,
Michael .
AD Ireland .
Noinden
wrote:
> Let us not forget Donn Mac Midir, who can transform himself into a
> stag, as well. In fact, the Lebor Feasa Runda implies a triplicity in
> which Samthainn/Cerna/Donn are three aspects of the same entity, like
> Nemain/Macha/Badb = Morrigan - a deity who was herslf part of another
> triplicity of Brighid/Dana/Morrigu, covering the tree aspects of the
> maiden/mother/crone motif as symbolic of fertility/bounty/decline
Once again you fall for the out dated idea of “triple deities” and the
various Celtic “pantheons”. To begin with the idea of Pantheon is an
anathema to the Tribal society like the Gaels. You are more likely to
have a
bunch of divine beings” which include spirits of the land, ancestors,
and Shinning ones and a deity or two of your tribe. McGrath has
already mentioned one Aine. Donn is another, and when we butt heads
over in MW, I’ve thrown a half dozen at you.
An Mhórrígan (my personal patron) has a number of names associated
with her. The name itself is a title (“Great Queen” NOT Phantom Queen
or Queen of the dead), as Danu, Bé Néit , Nemain and Fea, her sisters
are most often Macha nad Badb Catha. But they are not a triple
divinity. Any more than Goibhniu, Credne, and Luchta are the aspects
of the same deity. Or Caibre, Mathfan and Figol. Each is a unique
individual.
You are more than welcome to your UPG making them one and the same.
But contextually you would be wrong.
Oh and most certainly you will not get a "mother maiden Crone"
triplicate the way you have put it. You are more likely to get a land
sea sky with Danu (goddess of Rivers and land amongst other things),
Dommu (Goddess of the deep sea) and Anu (Goddess of the sky). Though
that is also a stretch. You seem hung up on Graves and similar
sources.
An Coibhi Drui
Hey, Noinden, you never commented on Bertie Ahern being my Grand
Uncle :-)
Cheers,
Michael .
Noinden
An Coibhi Drui
Who cares, you are a Bum .
Noinden
I'm not the disheveled one who wanders from bar to bar in Ireland :)
Michael Magrath
As I state, if the American People have one great consolation in this
time of recession, it is that none of you two world class liars, Dan
Willows Felber, and you, his Minion Noinden, are American.
1X2Willows
>> Akins of that Ilk wrote:
>>>
>>> Cernunnos type deity, especially when compared with the iconography
>>> on the Gundestrup cauldron and the Tarous Trigaranus reliefs from
>>> the Nautes Altar in Paris.
>>
>> Pretty artefacts from an artistic point of view but where it comes
>> to origin [Thracian and Roman] as authentic Gallic as that "made in
>> China" green plastic hat on Paddy's Day is authentic Irish.
>>
>> dorkfish!
>
> in Eastern Europe and the Near East. They were in Thrace itself, as
> well as Turkey for centuries. If you want to be specific about the
> tribal origin of the Gundestrup Cauldron, it belonged to the Cimbri,
> who settled in the Jutland peninsula. Compare the Gundestrup Cauldron
> with other Gallic artifacts portraying Cernunnos, such as the stella
> from Reimes, and the Nautes Pillar from Paris, as they both depict
> Cernunnos in almost identical detail.
Don't insult me with your trite drivel about my own heritage Herr Mengele.
All that stone-hewn junk you mention is not Gallic either but Gallo-Roman
or Romano-Gallic, basically same difference but more Gallo-Roman in
detail when we get down to brass tacks you'll never understand.
As to the rest of your hodgepodge ideology and "education"...
Might as well learn the secrets of Native American Spirituality from
literary and other documentation left behind by the missionaries who
came toddling along on the heels of Custer's 7th Cavalry you twit.
Leave the scholarship to intelligent folk and move along now.
Go bash a Zionist or something.
1X2Willows
> On Oct 19, 7:05 am, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Let us not forget Donn Mac Midir, who can transform himself into a
>> stag, as well. In fact, the Lebor Feasa Runda implies a triplicity in
>> which Samthainn/Cerna/Donn are three aspects of the same entity, like
>> Nemain/Macha/Badb = Morrigan - a deity who was herslf part of another
>> triplicity of Brighid/Dana/Morrigu, covering the tree aspects of the
>> maiden/mother/crone motif as symbolic of fertility/bounty/decline
>
> Once again you fall for the out dated idea of �triple deities� and the
He doesn't fall for them (meaning someone else's idea) but makes
it all up himself. That way you can make it fit whichever you please
and then later refer to your own work as proof.
See how that goes? :-)
1X2Willows
>
That's the same question I ask myself everytime someone suggests there might
be something substantial to your gibberish
Noinden
My you show a great anger towards academics. Could it be the wholesale
rejection of your little fantasy sorry book, has left a bitter taste
in your mouth? Good.
Akins of that Ilk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Academians receive their degrees by proving that they have been
throughly brainwashed by the propaganda they have been indoctrinated
to uphold and promote. They are tools of the ZOG to disseminate
misinformation and keep the masses from realizing the truth.
Kent
Hey, with your conspiracy theory background, you and McGrath should
exchange views on the moon landing (...snicker...). I'd almost bet you
see that as some sort of Zionist plot too...
"Tools of the ZOG"...oh boy! Good one! LOL!
1X2Willows
Zelders Of Gion?
Could someone please translate this GOB code for me?
Kent
Well, could be this, but I doubt it;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zog_of_Albania
Most likely this, knowing our supremacist as we do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
1X2Willows
> On Oct 20, 8:53 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>> Kent wrote:
>>
>>> "Tools of the ZOG"...oh boy! Good one! LOL!
>>
>> Zelders Of Gion?
>>
>> Could someone please translate this GOB code for me?
>
> Well, could be this, but I doubt it;
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zog_of_Albania
>
> Most likely this, knowing our supremacist as we do:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
Oh thank you, what relief! I was already worried it could be the
real nasty ones, the Creedish Occupied Government instead
http://www.autistici.org/loa/snd/survivor/official/uncreed/index.html
BTW the site raises an oft forgotten but extremely important question!
Which way does the shiny side of the aluminum foil have to point?
Inside or outside???
Noinden
>
> - Show quoted text -
Really? Where I come from they receive them because they hold
knowledge in their area of speciality. A PhD requires you to think for
yourself. Doctor of PHILOSOPHY. If you regurigitate old ideas you
shall not pass ;)
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
> On Oct 18, 5:33 pm, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> > Have you found the name Danu mentioned specifically in any of the
> > Irish mythological sources?
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gaelic, Specific!!!!!!!!!
SCOTI Legend.
> Here I am referring to the specific name
> > "Danu" and not one of the other similar forms of the name such as
> > Dana, Danand, Anu, Ana, Boana, etc.
> > Gaelic names tend to be open to interpretation where spelling is
> > concerned and the earlier, more pure forms of the name may not have
> > survived into the period in which they were finally written down by
> > the hands of christian scribes, who may not have been particularly
> > interested in preservation of explicitly Pagan details.
No, Rome Hunted the Eponymous.
The "Descendants", are the "Fallen Angels"!!!
> �
>
> The name of Danu does not occur directly in any of the Irish tales but
> is inferred from the genitive form of Danann in Tuatha D� Dannan in a
> similar form to the name of Domnu in its relationship to Domnann.
> There is of course the name Danand that appears in CMT.
>
> Searles O'Dubhain
The teaching is old as the Hills among the "Tribes of the Ass, and those
who rode the Colts of the Ass"!!
D'Anu, "The ONE".
Tuatha D� Dannan, Tribes of the "Lands of the One" "Followers of the One",
the Elf or "Alfar", "Followers of, THE ONE"!!
""WHICH ONE?????""
"THE, the ONE"!!!!!!!!!
De D'Annan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
�
�
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
> On Oct 18, 8:52 pm, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> > On Oct 18, 4:30 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm just looking for a horned man or deity in Irish tradition that
> > > survives. There are three decent candidates based on their names:
> >
Granus!!!!!!!!!!!
De Ue Che went from the Yuezhi, to Kush, to Debrujha of the Trans Vals, to
the Black Eagles of Aachen where the Healing Waters Flow.
The Red's, are the "Horned Helms of the Vikings".
Two Tribes of White Boys, Aryan, the Blonde, and A'Rian the Reds!
Mag, Magho (Mac), the Rau ge of Atilla's Fancy, and of Qin, and Conn/Khan.
The Mountain, born of the Ocean, Child of Fire of Fire, the Gi Au Ptha.
Selah!
Birgit Bucher
> On Oct 19, 7:47 am, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>> On Oct 18, 11:27 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Oct 18, 5:33 pm, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Have you found the name Danu mentioned specifically in any of the
>>>> Irish mythological sources? Here I am referring to the specific
>>>> name "Danu" and not one of the other similar forms of the name
>>>> such as Dana, Danand, Anu, Ana, Boana, etc.
>>>> Gaelic names tend to be open to interpretation where spelling is
>>>> concerned and the earlier, more pure forms of the name may not have
>>>> survived into the period in which they were finally written down by
>>>> the hands of christian scribes, who may not have been particularly
>>>> interested in preservation of explicitly Pagan details.
>>
>>> The name of Danu does not occur directly in any of the Irish tales
>>> Dannan in a similar form to the name of Domnu in its relationship
>>> to Domnann. There is of course the name Danand that appears in CMT.
>>
>>> Searles O'Dubhain
>>
>> So the name "Danu" has never been found - not even once - in all of
>> Ireland's early and medieval literature? Not even once, it is only
>> "implied"? Yet, it is accepted by the multitudes as a fact? The same
>> masses who would cast doubt and derrision of the thought of Cerna
>> being the name of an Irish pagan deity? Why do you think this is the
>> case? Is it because the notion that Danu is "implied" as being the
>> proper name of a goddess (who is always named something else) was
>> introduced so long ago that it somehow beat the deadline of
>> credibility? Is it because it was "implied" by some egg-head with a
>> scrap of paper framed on his wall with a tin-foil seal from some
>> University that he paid thousands of dollars to attend in his youth?
>> How gullible are the masses who would think this way?- Hide quoted
>> text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> It is mainly the nomenative "Danu" of the genitive "Danann." One
> names follows from the other from the rules governing Old-Irish
> syntax.I could not tell you why the name is not listed in the
> literature as Danu other than to say that it is also equated with Anu
> and Ana from Cormac's Glossary. Anu is said to be the "Mother Goddess"
> and her "Paps" are known far and wide as a part of the Irish lanscape.
> Who knows?
I would assume the etymologic derivation of the name of the area of the
origin of the celts, the land of the danube river, Danubios. Tuatha D�
Dannan, tribes of the fluvial water ... the river as the 'mighty',
life-giving entity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)#Etymology_of_the_name
Birgit
--
Fantasie ist wichtiger als Wissen, denn Wissen ist begrenzt.
Albert Einstein
1X2Willows
>
> I would assume the etymologic derivation of the name of the area of
> the origin of the celts, the land of the danube river, Danubios.
> Tuatha D� Dannan, tribes of the fluvial water ... the river as the
> 'mighty', life-giving entity.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Name
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)#Etymology_of_the_name
>
Yep, hardly coincidental the first major city before the Danube Delta
in modern Romania would be called Galati.
compare: The Danubian System
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Donau-Karte.png
No doubt the bulk of Celtic tribes migrated West over land (more precisely:
following the Danube upstream) while some others chose to travel by ship,
first down the western coast of the Black Sea through the Bosporus Strait
into the Mediterranean and onward to Ireland after a few stop-overs on
Malta, the eastern Spanish coast (Celtiberians), around Gibraltar (Pillars
of Hercules) and finally establishing the "Port of Gauls" (Portugal).
Searles O'Dubhain
> Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
> > On Oct 19, 7:47 am, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Oct 18, 11:27 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Oct 18, 5:33 pm, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> Have you found the name Danu mentioned specifically in any of the
> >>>> Irish mythological sources? Here I am referring to the specific
> >>>> name "Danu" and not one of the other similar forms of the name
> >>>> such as Dana, Danand, Anu, Ana, Boana, etc.
> >>>> Gaelic names tend to be open to interpretation where spelling is
> >>>> concerned and the earlier, more pure forms of the name may not have
> >>>> survived into the period in which they were finally written down by
> >>>> the hands of christian scribes, who may not have been particularly
> >>>> interested in preservation of explicitly Pagan details.
>
> >>> The name of Danu does not occur directly in any of the Irish tales
> Dannan, tribes of the fluvial water ... the river as the 'mighty',
> life-giving entity.
>
>
> Birgit
> --
> Fantasie ist wichtiger als Wissen, denn Wissen ist begrenzt.
> Albert Einstein
The name of Danu is found all across IndoEuropean cultures and in many
river names. In Ireland, there are a class of stories known as place-
name stories or dindshenchas which a Filidh was required to learn in
their studies. These attempt to tell why a place is named as it is and
anything else that is importantto its history. Cerna is such a place
with a dindshenchas about it and people of that name associated with
it.
Searles O'Dubhain
An Coibhi Drui
> Birgit Bucher wrote:
>
> > I would assume the etymologic derivation of the name of the area of
> > the origin of the celts, the land of the danube river, Danubios.
> > 'mighty', life-giving entity.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Name
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)#Etymology_of_the_name
>
> Yep, hardly coincidental the first major city before the Danube Delta
> in modern Romania would be called Galati.
>
>
> No doubt the bulk of Celtic tribes migrated West over land (more precisely:
> following the Danube upstream) while some others chose to travel by ship,
> first down the western coast of the Black Sea through the Bosporus Strait
> into the Mediterranean and onward to Ireland after a few stop-overs on
> Malta, the eastern Spanish coast (Celtiberians), around Gibraltar (Pillars
> of Hercules) and finally establishing the "Port of Gauls" (Portugal).
No, never happened, not at the time the more recent Celts spread
westward cross Ireland, there was no contemporary parallel movement
along the mediterranean, up through Spain and Portugal and onward into
Ireland, no invasion of, no mass immigration into, Ireland at that
time. Nice try your trying to slip it in though, Dan , heh heh heh .
Cheers,
Michael
An Coibhi Drui
wrote:
correction: spread westward across Europe...
1X2Willows
>
> correction: spread westward across Europe...
oh please... heh heh all you like. The joke's on you and your ilk :-}
Akins of that Ilk
> Birgit Bucher wrote:
>
> > I would assume the etymologic derivation of the name of the area of
> > the origin of the celts, the land of the danube river, Danubios.
> > 'mighty', life-giving entity.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Name
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)#Etymology_of_the_name
>
> Yep, hardly coincidental the first major city before the Danube Delta
> in modern Romania would be called Galati.
>
>
> No doubt the bulk of Celtic tribes migrated West over land (more precisely:
> following the Danube upstream) while some others chose to travel by ship,
> first down the western coast of the Black Sea through the Bosporus Strait
> into the Mediterranean and onward to Ireland after a few stop-overs on
> Malta, the eastern Spanish coast (Celtiberians), around Gibraltar (Pillars
> of Hercules) and finally establishing the "Port of Gauls" (Portugal).
The Celts were already in Western Europe - it was the Galli (Gauls/
Gaels/Galacians - call them what you will) who originated in Scythia
and pressed westward across Europe until they invaded the lands
already occupied by the native Keltoi (Celtici). It was only after the
Scythian Galli became absorbed into the already existing Celtic
population that the Gauls, Gaels, Gallacians, etc. and their languages/
culture came to be identified as "Celtic". The ancient scholars were
clearly aware of this distinction, but it has been forgotten or
ignored by modern academians seeking to promote their Zionist
controlled revisionism of history.
Noinden
wrote:
The ancient scholars were
> clearly aware of this distinction, but it has been forgotten or
> ignored by modern academians seeking to promote their Zionist
> controlled revisionism of history.
Ahh and here we have the Zionist threat out of your keyboard again.
Gods you are predictable. There is no Zionist controlled revisionism
of history. There is only a greater understanding. The ancient
scholars quite often were wrong.
An Coibhi Drui
Oh yeah ?
For instance Irish and English school children are still taught two
diametrically opposing views of Oliver Cromwell !!!
And if anybody can sympathise with the Jews oof the Holocaust, it is
the Irish - and we do ! ( because of our own Great Famine and hundreds
of years of oppression)
However, we believe, that although Israel has a right to survive and
fight for her survival, that she has gone too far in the Lebanon ( we
know directly from our soldiers who have completed 21 tours of duty
there ) and also in Gaza, and also in evicting Arabs and moving
thousands of settlers, including American Jews , onto Arab land - the
Arabs are evicted just like the Irish were by British landlords .
AND there is massive revisionism concerning history, which is usually
the prerogative of the victor .
Nor is there any excuse for the USA providing Israel with squadrons of
the latest jet fighter-bombers, they should be equipped only with
fighter-interceptors for air defence, it is America that has continued
on the Middle East conflict for years by arming Israel with the latest
war technology .
Cheers,
Michael
Byrne.M.James
wrote:
Not to mention preserving the situation by using its veto in the un to
prevent any action being taken against Israel for 30+ years.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
Ive been told by hundreds of US citizens that revisionism as made any
history book given to school goers since the 70s completely
unreliable. Its fairly pointless denying revisionism when its that
present in your own culture. Buzz words aside its also evident that
the same revisionism was applied as propaganda to form the state of
Israel. It was a big political move and those dont happen without spin
covering all contingencies.
One of the big issues for me in that area is why were ethnic jews the
only ones to altrusitically been given a homeland out of the holocaust
when other dispossessed peoples were targeted for longer during the
holocaust?. Take the Rroma not only did they not get their own land
their way of life has slowly been made illegal since WW2. Now they are
in every country in the world eating out of bins/trash cans. That is
hardly equal treatment.
IMO there must be an agenda behind it. Given the Britain of the day I
would have said it was to keep the region unstable to facilitate
recolonising it later but if that was the case I dont know what the US
supports Israel today. It must have something to do with money, I mean
the US spends it like water with the Israelis without a visible means
of return... thats not something the bunch of venture capitalists who
run the US would do without a good reason.
James
Byrne.M.James
I dunno man. That qualifies you to have an educated opinion of a
certain standard but it doesnt really give you insight in relation to
religion. I like Daithi O hOgain, he's probably going to end up
president here someday or in some similarly honourary positition but
his views on historical paganism seem to me to be very influenced by
contemporary neopaganism. He talks about light and dark in cosmology
and references elemental systems that originate in British
ceremonialsm... thats not historical Irish paganism that I know of.
I still take on all his theories without preconception because his
position in the bealoidas comission means he probably had a broader
knowledge of the folk trads then anyone in the country but hes an
example of a PHD not necessarily equiping you to comment on religion.
Especially an extreme minority religion.
James
Akins of that Ilk
>
> - Show quoted text -
One has to look at the larger picture before dismissing things like
elemental systems, light vs. dark and ceremonialism in Druidry. We
have to remember that Druidism belongs to a larger Indo-European
family of magico-religious practices that evolved over time from a
proto-Indo-European belief system founded not in Western Europe, but
in the Near East and Eastern Europe, where the Indo-European culture
first emerged. We must remember that the Gaels belonged to the Galatae
culture that originated in Scythia (according to both native and
contemporary sources), and that they only reached Ireland at a fairly
recent period (circa 1000 B.C.), supplanting the older faith of the
native aboriginal Celtic inhabitants who were descendants of the
megalithic culture dating back to the Stone Age, and whose pantheon is
characterised as the basis of the belief in the Fomorians, and their
subsequent portrayal as defeated forces of darkness, ignorance, want,
and malevolence, in contrast to the Tuatha De Danann, who became the
gods of the Gaels.
Byrne.M.James
> Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
> > On Oct 19, 7:47 am, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Oct 18, 11:27 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Oct 18, 5:33 pm, Akins of that Ilk <stevenak...@bellsouth.net>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> Have you found the name Danu mentioned specifically in any of the
> >>>> Irish mythological sources? Here I am referring to the specific
> >>>> name "Danu" and not one of the other similar forms of the name
> >>>> such as Dana, Danand, Anu, Ana, Boana, etc.
> >>>> Gaelic names tend to be open to interpretation where spelling is
> >>>> concerned and the earlier, more pure forms of the name may not have
> >>>> survived into the period in which they were finally written down by
> >>>> the hands of christian scribes, who may not have been particularly
> >>>> interested in preservation of explicitly Pagan details.
>
> >>> The name of Danu does not occur directly in any of the Irish tales
> Dannan, tribes of the fluvial water ... the river as the 'mighty',
> life-giving entity.
>
>
> Birgit
> --
> Fantasie ist wichtiger als Wissen, denn Wissen ist begrenzt.
> Albert Einstein
Eh that would be a good point with the exception that Danu as a name
only stems from the use of Tuatha De Danann. Outside the middle Irish
invention 'the book of invasions', and later texts influenced by it,
the only similar goddess name is Anu. A specifically regional deity.
IMO all those tribal names from the book of invasions should be taken
with a pinch of salt.
Why are the Tuatha De Danann the tribe of Danu but the Fir Bolg are
the men of the bag and not the men of some other sovereign deity? The
other names bare no similarity in structure to TDD either. Fomhaire,
Cessarian and Partholonian.... no other tribal names show a
matralinial descent from a sovereignty goddess. The same can be said
for every tribal name in Ireland we didnt do matralinial descent.
For all the laws granted women and all the great women we've had in
Ireland in early Ireland women were still property of the males under
brehon law and werent the founders of famlies. Look at the mythology,
they werent even supposed to socialise with men and when they entered
male society it was as servants and are only ever presented as the
wife of, the daughter of the lover of. Where they exist in the
narrative all they do is instigate fights, deirdre, grainne, medhbh...
all did it. Thats not showing an exhaulted opinion of the female
archetype and in relation to the term TDD I think it would be unusual
for someone to look at a view foreign to the culture and apply it to
their deities and its likely that the term itself comes from some
external influence. Like the christian monks.
I view the whole kit and kaboodle differently. Tuatha Dé the godly
tribe or the gods of the tribe is centuries earlier then Tuatha De
Danann and the other designations. Its I swear by the gods my people
swear by not a uniform I swear by x god of oaths. There are some high
deities broadly aknowledged aswell as the regional and ancestral ones
but they are rare leviathans that cant be ignored. Danu in the Irish
context doesnt seem to follow that pattern.
James
Byrne.M.James
Thats a reasonable point of view Steven,
Leaving aside the 'celtic' cultural bits missing from archaeology cos
they could turn up tomorrow... If it was the case why would you say
the iron age sees the neolithic sites continuing to be used for ritual
purposes and the bronze age sites continuing to be built? Why dont we
see similar temples and dedicated statuary instead like the ones built
in europe if the builders of those places moved here and conquered?
James
Noinden
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well the light dark thing is debatable ;) Giamos/Samos etc. But I
agree there is NO evidence the Irish did the Classical Elements thing.
They had their own ideas. It is put there by people who think of
"Celt" as a uniform culture. OR they have to much OTO in their past,
or they are fakes like Akins :P
1X2Willows
Odd definition of reasonable. Jumbled illogical whack more like it.
> Leaving aside the 'celtic' cultural bits missing from archaeology cos
> they could turn up tomorrow... If it was the case why would you say
> the iron age sees the neolithic sites continuing to be used for ritual
> purposes and the bronze age sites continuing to be built?
Ever asked yourself why old town theaters were the first structures to
be converted for the movies? Horse stables to garages for the motorcar?
Do you people ever consider those folks back then were behaving the
very same way as we do today, i-den-ti-cal, only from an outlook a bit
less broadly "educated" if we want to call it that?
> Why dont we see similar temples and dedicated statuary instead
> like the ones built in europe if the builders of those places moved
> here and conquered?
What temples and dedicated statuary? Romano-Gallic? Because there
were and are no others from before the conquest. People for whom the
land is sacred don't need any representative man-made place holders.
An Coibhi Drui
Newgrange, Knowth, Dowrh, Stonehnege, Avebury, Carnac, hundreds of
others across the Land placed there by our ancestors ( not yours,
Hun ! ) . And they built them and oriented them for the sheer fun of
it, YEH .
Cheers,
Michael .
Byrne.M.James
Do you mean the newcomers could have adapted to our culture out of
convenience rather then necessity?
>
> > Why dont we see similar temples and dedicated statuary instead
> > like the ones built in europe if the builders of those places moved
> > here and conquered?
>
> What temples and dedicated statuary? Romano-Gallic? Because there
> were and are no others from before the conquest. People for whom the
> land is sacred don't need any representative man-made place holders.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I suppose you could put it down to romano gallic influence, but if the
Celts came to Ireland fleeing the romans anyway it would be fair to
say they were romanized celts and should have carried traits similar
to the romano gallic. The sites Im thinking of specifically are
Gournay-Sur-Aronde and Ribemont-Sur-Ancre in the north of France.
Ribmont was definately built pre roman cos 90% of the finds are from
the third century and a gallo-roman site was built ontop of it
centuries later. They are big Iron Age 'ritual sites' where wooden
walls were lined with the skeletons of what archaeologists think were
decapitated warriors because they were holding swords. The places have
'crematioriums' built of human bones and enough animal bones to
insinuate recurring feasts or sacrifices.
We have some intimidating sites but those types of sites have no match
in Ireland after the neolithic
James
Byrne.M.James
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well I dont really place a lot of weight on the coligny calendar
personally but it is a good argument for atleast a superficial
duality. Rather then his view of the seasons I was considering more
his describing things as Fomhaire as dark underworld gods and Tuatha
De Danann as light gods or of Morrigan as the protector of her people
as being her 'dark aspect'. That kind of value judgement applied to
deities is neopaganism. Maybe he gives the words different meanings
then I would cos hes not familiar with neopaganism, even if that is
why they appear it still means a PHD doesnt qualify you as an
authority on neopaganism.
Thinking about the OTO I wonder if Daithi is a mason or a
ceremonialist. Yeats and AE were influential figures in Daithi's field
of study
James
Michael Magrath
Or Fake PH.Ds like you - there was no uniform Celtic culture in
Ireland, ever, there was never any Celtic culture in Ireland and there
still isn't !
And now there never will be.
Giamos/Samos and such Gaulish words have nothing to do with Ireland,
never had !
WE IRISH have our own Gaelic culture, nothing to do with the Gaulish
one of the Gall, except that it was always opposed to the Gall
Gael iad fein ni Gaill na Spainningh !!!
So up your thick ignorant Kiwi Half Breed Maori Arse :-)
Not one Irish patriot through all the hundreds of years, not one
filidh all down through the centuries, ever referred to OUR Ireland as
Celtic, an Ireland that you have never been to you Scoundrel, Rogue
and Vagabond of a notorious Liar .
Michael.
AD Ireland.
Dana
"Byrne.M.James" <byrne....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d287880-3900-4584...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why not? It's happened any number of times.
>
> > Why dont we see similar temples and dedicated statuary instead
> > like the ones built in europe if the builders of those places moved
> > here and conquered?
>
> What temples and dedicated statuary? Romano-Gallic? Because there
> were and are no others from before the conquest. People for whom the
> land is sacred don't need any representative man-made place holders.- Hide
> quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I suppose you could put it down to romano gallic influence, but if the
Celts came to Ireland fleeing the romans anyway it would be fair to
say they were romanized celts and should have carried traits similar
to the romano gallic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't see that it necessarily follows that that would be the case
(although it made for a good story line for Morgan Llewellyn). There was an
active maritime trading network in place that had been going for ages--some
sailors could have stopped in Ireland, made friends with the locals maybe,
decided it would be a nice place to move to and went to fetch the wife &
kids. There was ever-increasing pressure from the Germanic tribes pressing
southward even before Julius Caesar came onto the scene; increased
population was also an issue to some degree IIRC. A similar pattern was
seen with the Saxons settling England in some periods--it wasn't all war &
conquest, just overcrowding at home and men with little patrimony looking to
improve their circumstances.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The sites Im thinking of specifically are
Gournay-Sur-Aronde and Ribemont-Sur-Ancre in the north of France.
Ribmont was definately built pre roman cos 90% of the finds are from
the third century and a gallo-roman site was built ontop of it
centuries later. They are big Iron Age 'ritual sites' where wooden
walls were lined with the skeletons of what archaeologists think were
decapitated warriors because they were holding swords. The places have
'crematioriums' built of human bones and enough animal bones to
insinuate recurring feasts or sacrifices.
We have some intimidating sites but those types of sites have no match
in Ireland after the neolithic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So it's a good bet the tribes from northern France didn't move to Ireland
after the 3rd century BCE (and indeed I don't think anybody's ever claimed
they did). Beyond that it doesn't really prove anything one way or another.
One tribe's customs can be very different from the neighboring tribe's even
though both are part of a larger cultural group. Sometimes all you have to
do is cross into the next valley to see significant differences.
1X2Willows
>
> Newgrange, Knowth, Dowrh, Stonehnege, Avebury, Carnac, hundreds of
> others across the Land placed there by our ancestors ( not yours,
> Hun ! ) . And they built them and oriented them for the sheer fun of
> it, YEH .
>
As a go-getter for your Bishop, you ought to know how many chapels,
churches and cathedrals have been built on top of the ones on the
continent, George. My guess is that Ireland simply hasn't ever been
important enough a location to justify the effort. Dems rulerz always
liked something more central as a power base. They still do by the way.
Byrne.M.James
Well thats a good point.
From a tribal perspective thats exactly what the continuation of
bronze age sites represents. Its new tribes building a centrally
located 'ritual site' for *their* people rather then the large
conglomerate of tribes that built the neolithic sites for some greater
tribe. That being the case shouldnt a newly arrived tribe building a
centrally located site be making it in their own way and not in the
tradition of the land they bought, conquered or were given?
The reason I focus on those cool but creapy sites in northern france
rather then going for Britanny is we might have had the Belgae and the
sites are in Belgae territory. Whatever about Plinys ideas of other
tribes we can say that the belgae didnt just worship in groves of
trees they were builders and for some reason they stopped doing it
when they reached us.
I suppose for my theory to work Id have to see if they built similar
structures in belgium and Britain. It'll be fun funding out anyway
James
1X2Willows
> On Oct 30, 6:08 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>> Byrne.M.James wrote:
>>
>>> Leaving aside the 'celtic' cultural bits missing from archaeology
>>> cos they could turn up tomorrow... If it was the case why would you
>>> say the iron age sees the neolithic sites continuing to be used for
>>> ritual purposes and the bronze age sites continuing to be built?
>>
>> Ever asked yourself why old town theaters were the first structures
>> to be converted for the movies? Horse stables to garages for the
>> motorcar? Do you people ever consider those folks back then were
>> behaving the very same way as we do today, i-den-ti-cal, only from
>> an outlook a bit less broadly "educated" if we want to call it that?
>
> Do you mean the newcomers could have adapted to our culture out
> of convenience rather then necessity?
I mean it's only natural existing sites would be used by newcomers
for their own purpose which doesn't necessarily have to be identical
to the purpose they were built for by someone else.
Besides, acculturation happens. The archaeological record is packed
with proof and some modern examples even illustrate regress of sorts,
depending on how one defines "civilization" and how desirable it is.
>>> Why dont we see similar temples and dedicated statuary instead
>>> like the ones built in europe if the builders of those places moved
>>> here and conquered?
>>
>> What temples and dedicated statuary? Romano-Gallic? Because there
>> were and are no others from before the conquest. People for whom the
>> land is sacred don't need any representative man-made place holders.
>
> I suppose you could put it down to romano gallic influence,
Roman influence only. What else? There are no purely Gallic "temples and
statuary" if you mean depictions of gods or somesuch. Never have been.
Zip, Zilch, Nada.
> but if the
> Celts came to Ireland fleeing the romans anyway it would be fair to
> say they were romanized celts and should have carried traits similar
> to the romano gallic.
Try 500 years before that, at the very least.
Rome was but a glorified hamlet back then.
> The sites Im thinking of specifically are
> Gournay-Sur-Aronde and Ribemont-Sur-Ancre in the north of France.
> Ribmont was definately built pre roman cos 90% of the finds are from
> the third century and a gallo-roman site was built ontop of it
> centuries later.
Alesia was lost 52BCE. Everything after that is Roman controlled
and influenced by default. Mandatory too.
> They are big Iron Age 'ritual sites' where wooden
> walls were lined with the skeletons of what archaeologists think were
> decapitated warriors because they were holding swords. The places have
> 'crematioriums' built of human bones and enough animal bones to
> insinuate recurring feasts or sacrifices.
Yep. except for that ridiculous 'crematorium' reference and more precisely
abandoned very late La T�ne, ca. 100BCE
So?
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~silver_p/Sedlec/kutna-03.jpg
http://phrixuscoyote.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ossuaire_2.jpg
http://phrixuscoyote.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/sedlec-ossuary.jpg
> We have some intimidating sites but those types of sites have no match
> in Ireland after the neolithic
Why should there be?
Not exactly loads of nasty enemy combatants on the island, ey?
- and between the two of us... Belgians have always been weird.
Bit shady and dirty, too. That's why the EU is holed up there now :-)~
oh, and speaking of which...: SUCKER! hahahaha
1X2Willows
>
> One tribe's customs can be very different from the neighboring
> tribe's even though both are part of a larger cultural group. Sometimes
> all you have to do is cross into the next valley to see
> significant differences.
That's the spirit!
literally
Birgit Bucher
>
> The Celts were already in Western Europe - it was the Galli (Gauls/
> Gaels/Galacians - call them what you will) who originated in Scythia
> and pressed westward across Europe until they invaded the lands
> already occupied by the native Keltoi (Celtici). It was only after the
> Scythian Galli became absorbed into the already existing Celtic
> population that the Gauls, Gaels, Gallacians, etc. and their
> languages/ culture came to be identified as "Celtic". The ancient
> scholars were clearly aware of this distinction, but it has been
> forgotten or ignored by modern academians seeking to promote their
> Zionist controlled revisionism of history.
Are you able to proof your conclusion and name the sources, your
informations come from? Scyths and celts are AFAIK two different
cultures. There may have been influences of the Scyths on the celtic
tribes, but the galatians have been the descendants of the celtic tribe
Volcae, former settled north-east of the Rhine to Weser River, called by
the Germanic peoples "Welsche" ("walhoz", "Walha").
Birgit
--
Habe Mut, dich deines eigenen Verstandes zu bedienen
Immanuel Kant
An Coibhi Drui
Neither the Scythians nor the Celts are the ancestors of the Irish,
as is proven by the Sykes Oxford Study and the Trinity College Drublin
Study 2004 . In fact neither of them have anything at all to do with
these islands, nor we with them.
Cheers,
Michael .
Birgit Bucher
>
> Neither the Scythians nor the Celts are the ancestors of the Irish,
> as is proven by the Sykes Oxford Study and the Trinity College Drublin
> Study 2004 . In fact neither of them have anything at all to do with
> these islands, nor we with them.
We are talking about Scythians and Galatians, aren't we?
Birgit
--
Cuimhnich c� leis a tha thu
Gedenke der Menschen, von denen du abstammst
(Altes g�lisches Sprichwort; aus Michael Phillips "Schwert und Krone")
1X2Willows
>
> Neither the Scythians nor the Celts are the ancestors of the Irish,
> as is proven by the Sykes Oxford Study and the Trinity College Drublin
> Study 2004 . In fact neither of them have anything at all to do with
> these islands, nor we with them.
>
In that case, may we suggest you find yourself another forum to disrupt
since Druids, as we all know, except yourself, are commonly defined as
"An ancient Celtic caste of priests, teachers, diviners, and magicians".
Strabo reports about the Celts he knew:
"Among all the tribes, generally speaking, there are three classes of men
held in special honour; the b�rdoi, the ov�teis, and the dru�dai. The b�rdoi
are singers and poets; the ov�teis are interpreters of sacrifice and natural
philosophers,; while the dru�dai, in addition to the science of nature,
study also moral philosophy." *
Couldn't have meant the Irish then, according to your claim.
Well... don't like it? You're always free to found a brand new Usenet
newsgroup called alt.religion.fili.purely.irish or something of that sort.
However, I wouldn't expect any more interest in such a critter than in
this ARD Light thang over on the exclusive Google server.
:-}
*This BTW is one of the very few 'outsider' quotes which can be taken
at face value, as it doesn't involve any greco-romanized interpretation.
1X2Willows
> On Oct 31, 2:39 am, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>>
>> ... you ought to know how many chapels,
>> churches and cathedrals have been built on top of the ones on the
>> continent, George. My guess is that Ireland simply hasn't ever been
>> important enough a location to justify the effort. Dems rulerz always
>> liked something more central as a power base. They still do by the
>> way.
>
> Well thats a good point.
> From a tribal perspective thats exactly what the continuation of
> bronze age sites represents. Its new tribes building a centrally
> located 'ritual site' for *their* people rather then the large
> conglomerate of tribes that built the neolithic sites for some greater
> tribe.
Why certainly. One has to quit thinking of those folks in modern
terms, expecting a sense of unity as in "one people". They didn't
give a rats about social systems bigger than the tribe incl. certain
unstable and ever changing allegiances with other tribes.
> That being the case shouldnt a newly arrived tribe building a
> centrally located site be making it in their own way and not in the
> tradition of the land they bought, conquered or were given?
Not necessarily, no. Your first clue would be building materials.
All your palisade expertise is for the birds if trees are few but there's
an assload of nice rock laying around, to put it a bit simplistic.
Also, the custom of "building stuff like the locals did and do" is a
very common one amongst newcomers even into present times.
Then there are areas in which nothing has to be built at all for a
calendrical purpose (the main function for all of them alike).
In my ancestral area for example, this involved three mountain peaks
50, 70 and 100 kilometers apart, respectively.
http://downloads.euro-celts.org/images/BelchenChart.jpg
All three summits are archaeological sites which document their
ritual usage on solstices and equinoctes way way into the past.
The key, I guess, is finding out about their perfect alignment and
thus function as a naturally grown calendar and 'observatory'.
The rediscovery of this ancient knowledge BTW was triggered by
a linguistic inquiry into the question why all three of them, located
in three different nations today (France, Switzerland, Germany)
would bear the same traditional name "Belchen".
Yeah, don't snigger, it's from indoeuropean �bhel� = shiny/bright
Quite appropriate for any place from which one observes the Sun.
> The reason I focus on those cool but creapy sites in northern france
> rather then going for Britanny is we might have had the Belgae and the
> sites are in Belgae territory. Whatever about Plinys ideas of other
> tribes we can say that the belgae didnt just worship in groves of
> trees they were builders and for some reason they stopped doing it
> when they reached us.
Again, I don't see any creepyness at all, just trained-on xtian inhibition
with some taboo about human body parts like also in the case of sex.
Belgae in Ireland would be new to me. What era are we talking?
> I suppose for my theory to work Id have to see if they built similar
> structures in belgium and Britain. It'll be fun funding out anyway
Well, sounds like a worthwhile pastime. Better than a crack habit
in any case. Good luck with that! :-)
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
news:hci57t$10l$1...@news.albasani.net...
Case in point, settlers in the American Southwest in the 19th century, who
were used to buildings being made out of wood, learning to use adobe out in
the desert.
[snippage]
Birgit Bucher
>
> Eh that would be a good point with the exception that Danu as a name
> only stems from the use of Tuatha De Danann. Outside the middle Irish
> invention 'the book of invasions', and later texts influenced by it,
> the only similar goddess name is Anu. A specifically regional deity.
Which region? Munster only? The name �ath nAnann is AFAIK used in poetry
for the whole country, band�a in ts�nusa, goddess of fertility. Correct?
> IMO all those tribal names from the book of invasions should be taken
> with a pinch of salt.
> Why are the Tuatha De Danann the tribe of Danu but the Fir Bolg are
> the men of the bag and not the men of some other sovereign deity? The
> other names bare no similarity in structure to TDD either. Fomhaire,
> Cessarian and Partholonian.... no other tribal names show a
> matralinial descent from a sovereignty goddess. The same can be said
> for every tribal name in Ireland we didnt do matralinial descent.
>
> For all the laws granted women and all the great women we've had in
> Ireland in early Ireland women were still property of the males under
> brehon law and werent the founders of famlies. Look at the mythology,
> they werent even supposed to socialise with men and when they entered
> male society it was as servants and are only ever presented as the
> wife of, the daughter of the lover of. Where they exist in the
> narrative all they do is instigate fights, deirdre, grainne, medhbh...
> all did it. Thats not showing an exhaulted opinion of the female
> archetype and in relation to the term TDD I think it would be unusual
> for someone to look at a view foreign to the culture and apply it to
> their deities and its likely that the term itself comes from some
> external influence. Like the christian monks.
Yep, I know about the depression of women in societies, it's a shame ...
so I wonder, why they didn't change the name of the land �ire ... ;-)
If I understand you correct, the TDD seem to be only a fiction of the
Christian monks?
> I view the whole kit and kaboodle differently. Tuatha D� the godly
> tribe or the gods of the tribe is centuries earlier then Tuatha De
> Danann and the other designations. Its I swear by the gods my people
> swear by not a uniform I swear by x god of oaths. There are some high
> deities broadly aknowledged aswell as the regional and ancestral ones
> but they are rare leviathans that cant be ignored. Danu in the Irish
> context doesnt seem to follow that pattern.
Ernmas, �riu, Banba, F�tla, Morr�gain, Bodb (Badb Catha), Macha .. to
name a few of the Irish goddesses, arised from the Tuatha De Danann. If
they aren't of importance, why they play such a role in the pagan
beliefs as sovereignities of the Land and the tribes?
Birgit
--
Man lebt nicht lange genug,
um aus seinen Fehlern zu lernen.
La Bruy�re
1X2Willows
>
> Yep, I know about the depression of women in societies, it's a shame
> ... so I wonder, why they didn't change the name of the land �ire ...
> ;-)
Not only common but ancient practice to assign a female character
to the land herself, as she is the fertile one, the live giver, sustainer
and nourisher.
C'mon just look around you... Noreia, Roma, Helvetia etc. etc. even
into more modern times with "Marianne" and "Lady Liberty"...
All the same archaic use but you know that too, don't you ;-)
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
Columbia was the sovereignty figure for the fledgling United States during
and after the Revolution, although she later faded from use in favor of
Uncle Sam (doesn't *that* explain a lot!).
And then of course there's Queen Califia on the California state seal.
http://www.library.ca.gov/history/images/seal.jpg
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
news:hcib6r$ab6$1...@news.albasani.net...
Also.....those early Christians the Romans fed to the lions in the Colleseum
were there for the crime of impiety. All that was required of them is that
they make a modest token offering at the shrine of Roma, as all loyal
citizens were required to periodically do, but many refused to do so since
it was considered a violation of the first commandment..
An Coibhi Drui
> An Coibhi Drui wrote:
>
> > Neither the Scythians nor the Celts are the ancestors of the Irish,
> > as is proven by the Sykes Oxford Study and the Trinity College Drublin
> > Study 2004 . In fact neither of them have anything at all to do with
> > these islands, nor we with them.
>
> We are talking about Scythians and Galatians, aren't we?
>
> Birgit
> --
> Gedenke der Menschen, von denen du abstammst
Galatians too, absolutely nothing to do with, no historical
coonnection with the Irish - or indeed with any of the peoples of the
British Isles.
Cheers,
Michael ,
1X2Willows
> On Oct 31, 6:11 pm, "Birgit Bucher" wrote:
>> An Coibhi Drui wrote:
>>
>>> Neither the Scythians nor the Celts are the ancestors of the Irish,
>>> as is proven by the Sykes Oxford Study and the Trinity College
>>> Drublin Study 2004 . In fact neither of them have anything at all
>>> to do with these islands, nor we with them.
>>
>> We are talking about Scythians and Galatians, aren't we?
>>
>
> coonnection with the Irish - or indeed with any of the peoples of the
> British Isles.
How's about Galicians? :-}
Akins of that Ilk
I'll let the historical sources who were contemporary with the Celts
speak for themselves. Only one tribe in the ancient era called
themselves by a name resembling "Celts" and these were the Celtici, a
tribe located in southwestern Spain. These are in fact the first
"Celts" mentioned in history by the writer Herodotus in 450 BC, who
reported:
"For the Ister (Danube river), beginning in the land of the Celts and
the city of Pyrene, flows through the middle of Europe. The Celts live
beyond the Pillars of Hercules (straits of Gibraltar) and border on
the Cynesii (Conii), who are the westernmost inhabitants of Europe."
The difference between the Celts proper and the later invading Gallic
tribes is discussed by Diodorus Siculus who wrote in the first century
BC, saying:
“It is useful now to point out a distinction unknown by most. Those
tribes that live inland from Marseilles as well as those around the
Alps and on the eastern side of the Pyrenees are called Celts. But
those tribes in the northern area near the ocean, those near the
Hercynian mountain and those beyond as far as Scythia are called
Galatae. The Romans, however, group all these tribes together as
Galatae....Of those who have written about the ancient myths, Hecateus
and certain others say that in the regions beyond the land of the
Celts there lies in the ocean an island no smaller than Sicily. This
island, the account continues, is situated in the north, and is
inhabited by the Hyperboreans, who are called by that name because
their home is beyond the point whence the north wind blows, and the
land is both fertile and productive of every crop, and since it has an
unusually temperate climate it produces two harvests each year…And
there is also on the island both a magnificent sacred precinct of
Apollo and a notable temple which is adorned with many votive
offerings and is spherical in shape. Furthermore, a city is there
which is sacred to this god, and the majority of its inhabitants are
players on the cithara; and these continually play on this instrument
in the temple and sing hymns of praise to the god, glorifying his
deeds They say also that the moon, as viewed from this island, appears
to be but a little distance from the earth and to have upon it
prominences, like those of the earth, which are visible to the eye."
In his Description of Greece, the writer Pausanias explains the how
the adoption of the Gallic culture by the Celts led to confusion
between the identities of the two groups, saying:
“These Gauls inhabit the most remote portion of Europe, near a great
sea that is not navigable to its extremities, and possesses ebb and
flow and creatures quite unlike those of other seas. Through their
country flows the river Eridanus, on the bank of which the daughters
of Helius (Sun) are supposed to lament the fate that befell their
brother Phaethon. It was late before the name “Gauls” came into vogue;
for anciently they were called Celts both amongst themselves and by
others.”
Ammianus Marcellinus describes how Gaul was divided between the native
Celtic population and the more recent Gallic invaders, saying:
"According to the Druids, a part of the population [of Gaul] was
indigenous, but some of the people came from outlying islands and
lands beyond the Rhine, driven from their homes by repeated wars and
the inroads of the sea."
According to the account given in the Lebor Gabala Erenn (Book of the
Taking of Ireland), the ancestors of the Gaels came to Ireland from
Scythia after being driven from their original homeland by warring
tribes:
Feinius Farsaid, a king of Scythia, went into Asia with his son Nel to
assist in the building of the Tower of Nimrod. After the destruction
of the Tower and the subsequent dispersal of the races, Feinius
Farsaid is said to have learned all the new languages of the world
then returned to Scythia where he founded a great school of languages
on the Scythian plain. In time his son Nel became such a master of
languages that pharoah invited him into Egypt to instruct his people
in the new tongues of the world. While in Egypt Nel married Scota,
pharoah's daughter, and by her had a son named Gaedel Glas (from whom
the Gaedil took their name). The progeny of Nel and Scota prospered in
Egypt until pharoah was killed pursuing fleeing Hebrew slaves. Fearful
for the safety of his people, Sru and his son Heber Scot soon after
returned to Scythia where Heber Scot won the kingship from a distant
kinsman.
A few generations later a descendant of Heber Scot named Agnomain
killed a rival for the kingship of Scythia and was driven from the
country by his rivals. He and his followers took to the sea in a fleet
of four ships and spent seven years skirting the north side of the
world. On this journey, their druid, Caicher, prophesied that their
descendants would eventually prosper on an island named Ireland. The
Gaedil settled first in the Macotic Marshes, until nearly three
hundred years later, a descendant of Agnomain named Brath led them on
a long sea-voyage across the Mediterranean Sea to Spain. After landing
in Spain his son Breogain built a city with a tall tower named
Brigantia, from which height Ith later caught a glimpse of Ireland on
a winter's night, an event which led to the first exploration of
Ireland by the Gaedil.
This traditional account of the Scythian origins of the Gaels was
recounted in the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath as late as 1320 AD:
"Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books
of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the
Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from
Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of
Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most
savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however
barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of
Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still
live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly
destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the
Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many
victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear
witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since."
1X2Willows
> "1X2Willows" wrote
>> Birgit Bucher wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep, I know about the depression of women in societies, it's a shame
>>> ... so I wonder, why they didn't change the name of the land �ire
>>> ... ;-)
>>
>> Not only common but ancient practice to assign a female character
>> to the land herself, as she is the fertile one, the live giver,
>> sustainer and nourisher.
>>
>> C'mon just look around you... Noreia, Roma, Helvetia etc. etc. even
>> into more modern times with "Marianne" and "Lady Liberty"...
>> All the same archaic use but you know that too, don't you ;-)
>
> Columbia was the sovereignty figure for the fledgling United States
> during and after the Revolution, although she later faded from use in
> favor of Uncle Sam (doesn't *that* explain a lot!).
Same with John Bull in the UK instead of Britannia and Germany with
their "Michel" instead of Germania, yup. Explains a lot indeed.
> And then of course there's Queen Califia on the California state seal.
>
> http://www.library.ca.gov/history/images/seal.jpg
Too many to count, worldwide. That's why the Catholic Cult always
stressed the importance of "Mary" when they supplanted the local
female Spirit with her, wherever they went. Without this aspect,
indigenous people would have told them right away to bugger off and
croak of the pox they carried with them and spread intentionally
amongst those non believers. That's "civilization" for ya!
1X2Willows
>
> Also.....those early Christians the Romans fed to the lions in the
> Colleseum were there for the crime of impiety. All that was required
> of them is that they make a modest token offering at the shrine of
> Roma, as all loyal citizens were required to periodically do, but
> many refused to do so since it was considered a violation of the
> first commandment..
Quite right. Ironically enough, Roma never made it into their hard
polytheist pantheon because she had been a considerably older,
way more archaic inheritance from Etruscan times!
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
Actually Mary might have fared even worse if the Nestorians had prevailed at
the Council of Ephesus in 431 CE when an effort was made to cut way back on
all the attention and devotion paid to the Theotokos (god-bearer).
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
Besides, all that high-profile noisy soap opera of a pantheon was just
swiped from the Greeks anyway. Roma, however.....the name says it all.
1X2Willows
Fared even worse?
Mary turned out to be the biggest selling point for Xtianity, ever!
Dana
"1X2Willows" <nos...@least.invalid> wrote in message
Ah, but all those church *fathers* saw things differently. Quite a few of
them didn't like the devotion accorded to a female figure (look how quick
most of the Protestant sects discarded Mary worship), but couldn't figure
out how to get rid of her and still keep Jesus' humanity.
And even so, it took until 1970 for two--count 'em, two--female saints to
finally be acknowledged as Doctors of the Church, and sure enough they were
ladies who had pulled the church's chestnuts out of the fire when it had
been needed. Catherine of Siena had convinced the pope to break the
influence of the throne of France on the papacy and return to Rome and
Teresa of Avila, along with Ignatius Loyola (founder of the Jesuits) was one
of the leading lights of the Counter-Reformation and is considered one of
the greatest writers on ecstatic mysticism of all time.
1X2Willows
> "1X2Willows" wrote
You know dem creeps even better than I do! :-D
Byrne.M.James
Dan man T.F. O Rahilly was the first to mention it and the theory has
kept its head above water long enough to be around in Daibhi O
Croinins edited new history of Ireland.
Unlike Michael I do drink and its 5 am here and Im just home from the
Féile Sessiún so Ill have to reread this tomorrow.
James
Byrne.M.James
>
> >> Yep, I know about the depression of women in societies, it's a shame
> >> ;-)
Eriu (the land) comes from Erainn (the people of the land) according
to O hOgain. Im too tired to go into the language more. The pseudo
history and its pseudo etymologies are interesting but nothing else.
> > Not only common but ancient practice to assign a female character
> > to the land herself, as she is the fertile one, the live giver, sustainer
> > and nourisher.
The book of invasions is 12th century thats not ancient and the
speirban poems are jacobite poems and thats not ancient. Ancient maybe
for a culture younger then the building I live in maybe.
> > C'mon just look around you... Noreia, Roma, Helvetia etc. etc. even
> > into more modern times with "Marianne" and "Lady Liberty"...
> > All the same archaic use but you know that too, don't you ;-)
Admittedly its our holiday and Im hammered but what are you on about?.
Are you inventing a system of cultural cognates or just using early
literary nationalism to insinuate a non existant old irish theology?
> And then of course there's Queen Califia on the California state seal.
>
> http://www.library.ca.gov/history/images/seal.jpg
I, have, absolutely NO Idea what relevance some contemprary US
heraldry has to do with a culture from 2000 years ago. Youre
modernists, you completely divorced yourselves from everything
traditional, and that was only british tradition not 'celtic' trad. If
it was an inherited trad it would be nothing to do with 'celtic
paganism'.
James
Byrne.M.James
what the fuck are you talking about, look how quickly the protestant
sects discarded mary worship. The new ark of the covenant (christ
being the new covenant and mary being the ark) is a fundamental
theological difference between catholicism and protestantism. They
didn't just discard it quickly, it was the product of reformantion and
a defining difference. I thought America was a protestant country. Are
you heads so ill educated that you dont know the fuckin difference
between catholic and protestant?
Jesus fucking christ,
James 'sick of bullshiters' Byrne (A name older then your families and
your fuckin country).
An Coibhi Drui
> On Oct 18, 5:37 pm, Kent <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 2:30 pm, "Searles O'Dubhain" <odubhai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm just looking for a horned man or deity in Irish tradition that
> > > survives. There are three decent candidates based on their names:
>
> > > Cerna
>
> > > Conaill Cearnach
>
> > > Fer Benn
>
> > > Of course none of these guys plays a Cernnunos role in the literature
> > > AFAICS. It's good that some much did survive so that I can enjoy a
> > > continuing search. :-)
>
> > > Searles
>
> > Well, enjoy your search. After all, that's what the "R" is in "CR"
> > for. None of it was handed to us on a silver platter, despite claims
> > of others.
>
> I agree. Beware of facts on silver platters. I'll favor such a dish
> more if it came out of the texts preserved at one of the Irish
> Universities or at Oxford. They seem to have many texts that were
> recovered with adequate provenance.
>
> I suspect that tales of the devil have supplanted anything that would
> have been useful in this quest in the Irish folklore.
>
> I've been searching for about 20 years an have yet to find an Irish
> Horned God. The trio of Cú Chulainn, Conal Cearnach and Cú Roí Mac
> Daire definitely are enticing when looking for heroes representing the
> three realms however.
>
> Searles O'Dubhain
It's mostly wiccans who go on about The Horned God.
You're right, no reference to any Horned God in any of the literature,
not that I could find in 20 years either .
Cheers,
Michael .
1X2Willows
> On Oct 31, 8:04 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>>
>> Well, sounds like a worthwhile pastime. Better than a crack habit
>> in any case. Good luck with that! :-)
>
> Dan man T.F. O Rahilly was the first to mention it and the theory has
> kept its head above water long enough to be around in Daibhi O
> Croinins edited new history of Ireland.
>
> Unlike Michael I do drink and its 5 am here and Im just home from the
Just a bit of rough humour, no offense. Frankly, I wouldn't be the least
bit surprised if there was something to it, depending on the depth of
specific implications and conclusions, as always.
Hope that Feile was worth it and ripping fun. Rest peacefully :)
1X2Willows
>>> Dan wrote:
>
>>> Not only common but ancient practice to assign a female character
>>> sustainer and nourisher.
>
> The book of invasions is 12th century thats not ancient and the
> speirban poems are jacobite poems and thats not ancient.
'Scuse me but this was about a rather 'universal' Pagan approach, all
ancient traditions considered, not medieval Irish anything. The more
you stick around, the more you may find that it's not always about
Ireland... simply because it isn't.
> Ancient maybe for a culture younger then the building I live in maybe.
Unlikely, to say the least, as I'm from a place where the only the political
nation in its present form is already over 700 years old, founded 1291,
not to mention the culture behind it. I sincerely do hope the abode you
presently occupy is a tad more recent than that.
>>> C'mon just look around you... Noreia, Roma, Helvetia etc. etc. even
>>> into more modern times with "Marianne" and "Lady Liberty"...
>>> All the same archaic use but you know that too, don't you ;-)
>
> Admittedly its our holiday and Im hammered but what are you on about?
Yes I noticed but hey... no problemo, happens to the best of us and
just because you're such an honest man, I fixed the misquote for you
and try to be generally a bit... nicer than usual.
> Are you inventing a system of cultural cognates or just using early
> literary nationalism to insinuate a non existant old irish theology?
What we're doing in this spot is sometimes called comparative theology,
though I would oppose such a description already on linguistic grounds.
>> And then of course there's Queen Califia on the California state
>> seal.
>>
>> http://www.library.ca.gov/history/images/seal.jpg
>
> I, have, absolutely NO Idea what relevance some contemprary US
> heraldry has to do with a culture from 2000 years ago. Youre
> modernists, you completely divorced yourselves from everything
> traditional, and that was only british tradition not 'celtic' trad. If
> it was an inherited trad it would be nothing to do with 'celtic
> paganism'.
Modernist! :-D I've heard many an accusation in my time but that's
a brand new one. Back home, they keep telling me I shouldn't always
be so... conservative and traditionalist but go with the flow more often.
Sl�inte!
Birgit Bucher
>
[snip]
> Then there are areas in which nothing has to be built at all for a
> calendrical purpose (the main function for all of them alike).
> In my ancestral area for example, this involved three mountain peaks
> 50, 70 and 100 kilometers apart, respectively.
>
> http://downloads.euro-celts.org/images/BelchenChart.jpg
>
> All three summits are archaeological sites which document their
> ritual usage on solstices and equinoctes way way into the past.
> The key, I guess, is finding out about their perfect alignment and
> thus function as a naturally grown calendar and 'observatory'.
> The rediscovery of this ancient knowledge BTW was triggered by
> a linguistic inquiry into the question why all three of them, located
> in three different nations today (France, Switzerland, Germany)
> would bear the same traditional name "Belchen".
The Jurabelchen is also called Belchenfluh, near Olten. This
"Belchen-System" is a perfect natural sun-observatory, like for example
also the Bruchhauser Steine.
http://www.sternwarte-recklinghausen.de/archaeoastro/bst1_english.pdf
> Yeah, don't snigger, it's from indoeuropean �bhel� = shiny/bright
> Quite appropriate for any place from which one observes the Sun.
Near the Els�sser Belchen lays the small town /Bel/fort, und Basel, a
former celtic settlement, is encircled by the five mountains.
[snip]
Birgit
--
Was wir wissen, ist ein Tropfen,
was wir nicht wissen, ein Ozean.
Newton
Birgit Bucher
> Byrne.M.James wrote:
>
>>>> C'mon just look around you... Noreia, Roma, Helvetia etc. etc. even
>>>> into more modern times with "Marianne" and "Lady Liberty"...
>>>> All the same archaic use but you know that too, don't you ;-)
>>
>> Admittedly its our holiday and Im hammered but what are you on about?
>
> Yes I noticed but hey... no problemo, happens to the best of us and
> just because you're such an honest man, I fixed the misquote for you
> and try to be generally a bit... nicer than usual.
That wasn't meant as an offence, just something to think about. Sorry,
if it could be misunderstood. :-/
Dana
"Byrne.M.James" <byrne....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e8b9209-8ab0-44ff...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Jesus fucking christ,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm talking about this little party called the Reformation that got started
around 1517 when a guy named Luther nailed stuff to a church door and people
like Calvin and Zwingli agreed with him that worshipping Mary and the saints
was idolatry. The only "Protestant" church of the time that kept Mary
worship was the Church of England, because Henry VIII was really a Catholic
at heart, he just wanted his damned divorce.
Not sure what the age of countries or families has to do with it...
If I got over your head there talking about actual history, I do apologize.
Dana
> > Birgit Bucher wrote:
>
> >> Yep, I know about the depression of women in societies, it's a shame
> >> ;-)
James
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The subject is "Historical Female Sovereignty Figures in Various Western
Cultures and the Continuance of the Concept into Modern Times."
So what's *not* traditional about Sovereignty and a king validating his
kingship by ritually mating with Her? The concept and practices that
indicate it can be found across the board in ancient cultures worldwide, not
only the Celtic tribes. As for the Irish, Giraldus Cambriensis documents
their kings were *still* doing the ritual with the mare in the 12th century
(and FYI, Giraldus is considered extremely reliable since he's consistently
corroborated elsewhere).
As for the rest--as the lady in Miss Jane Austen's book said, "The party
spirit seems to have confused you!"