Druids didn't believe in Reincarnation
Orion
fiction wether the druids believed in Reincarnation or not, but from many
books I have read, they didn't.
I have read many books on Druid, ranging from the metaphysical type
Druid books and these say that they believe in Reincarnation, but the more
Historical type books that look at Druids as History and not as a current
religion make it quiet clear that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation.
An example is the book The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean Markale.
In his book he does state that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation, but
that when they died they passed on into the OtherWorld. But this didn't stop
them from returning, instead the Druids could pass back into the physical
world as animals and omens to help other druids learn and to be teachers. So
I guess this could be a form of Reincarnation, but from what it seems they
didn't come back as another human form to live life again.
I know I will get a lot of bashing for this, but it is what I have read
and is also what I believe.
---Wes--->
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge
That myth is more potent than history
That dreams are more powerful than facts
That hope always triumps over experience
That laughter is the only cure for grief
And I believe that Love is stronger than death.
---The Storyteller's Creed
The way to love anything is to realize that it may be lost.
Stormseer
Orion <pa...@metro.net> wrote in message
news:93198079...@news.remarQ.com...
> Ok, first I would like to clear up saying that we don't know for fact or
> fiction wether the druids believed in Reincarnation or not, but from many
> books I have read, they didn't.
>
> I know I will get a lot of bashing for this, but it is what I have
read
> and is also what I believe.
>
> ---Wes--->
I think you're probably right. On Samhain, the Celts really didn't look
foward to celebrating because it was believed that at this time you can see
the spirits of the dead walking the earth.
I heard one other theory that I'd like confirmed - that the Celts believed
you had three choices to make when you die. You can come back to earth in
another human form, you can choose to walk in the Otherworld for eternity,
or...you can choose not to exist at all... anyone ever hear of this theory?
Comments?
Orion
> reincarnation but you turn right around and say they returned from the
> Otherworld after death to this one. If that's not reincarnation, what is
> it?
What I was saying was that I don't think they viewed reincarnation as in
coming back as another human with no knowledge of their previous life. What
I believe and what it sort of sounds like from what I have read is that
after they died they passed into the otherworld, but were able to pass back
into the physical world as apparations ie "ghosts". So really they just
passed back into this world but not in actual physical form.
Searles O'Dubhain
taught about it and experienced it. This topic comes up every so often
here, so I assembled what I've written previously into an essay called
"Celts, Karma and Reincarnation" at:
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/celts_and_karma.html
You seem to be saying that you don't think the Druids believed in
reincarnation but you turn right around and say they returned from the
Otherworld after death to this one. If that's not reincarnation, what is
it?
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Orion <pa...@metro.net> wrote in article
<93198079...@news.remarQ.com>...
> Ok, first I would like to clear up saying that we don't know for fact or
> fiction wether the druids believed in Reincarnation or not, but from many
> books I have read, they didn't.
>
> I have read many books on Druid, ranging from the metaphysical type
> Druid books and these say that they believe in Reincarnation, but the
more
> Historical type books that look at Druids as History and not as a current
> religion make it quiet clear that Druids did not believe in
Reincarnation.
> An example is the book The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean
Markale.
> In his book he does state that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation,
but
> that when they died they passed on into the OtherWorld. But this didn't
stop
> them from returning, instead the Druids could pass back into the physical
> world as animals and omens to help other druids learn and to be teachers.
So
> I guess this could be a form of Reincarnation, but from what it seems
they
> didn't come back as another human form to live life again.
>
Wade Baugher
As a new subscriber, and Solitary Druid of many years, I'd like to wish
everyone well and say that I look forward to the stimulating discussions
ahead.
Concerning reincarnation, the evidence is diverse.
There are Greek and Roman texts that offer observations designed mainly to
communicate a different messages to a non-Celtic audience.
Lucan: "They hold that the soul of a dead man does not descend to the
silent, sunless world of Hades, but becomes reincarnate elsewhere; if they
are right, death is merely a point of change in perpetual existence."
Posidonius as quoted by Doidorous: the Celts believed that "the soul of men
are immortal, and that after a definite number of years they live a second
life when the soul passes to another body."
Caesar: "A lesson which they take particular pains to inculcate is that
the soul does not perish, but after death passes from one body to another;
they think that this is the best incentive to bravery, because it teaches
men to disregard the terrors of death."
Strabo fashions it as a Druidic belief that "men's souls and the
universe are indestructible"
Mella refers to the Druidic belief that "souls are eternal and there is
another life in the infernal regions"
Lucan, in a rhetorical address to the Druids says "But you assure us, no
ghosts seek the silent kingdom of Erebus, nor the pallid depths of Dis'
realm, but with a new body the spirit reigns in another world - if we
understand your hymns, death is halfway through a long life."
Flaccus comments on the custom among the Gauls to lend money to each
other, on the understanding that the loan would be repaid in the next world.
Hyppolytus incorrectly, though understandably, linked the Druidic belief in
Otherworldly rebirth to the Pythagorean philosophy of the Transmigration of
Souls. Most modern scholars agree the concepts are substantially different.
The ancient classical writers portray two distinctly different outlooks; the
continual transference of the soul among bodies, and the notion of an
Otherworld that is the mirror image of this earth... only better.
The second idea is supported by a wealth of old Irish and Welsh vernacular
texts. The predecessors and ancestors of the insular Celtic fringe become
Gods, Demi-Gods and Sidhe in a marvelous interplay of fantasy and reality
aptly described as "Fertile chaos". The texts are awash in different forms
of transformation, incarnation, shape-shifting, and movement back and forth
between the worlds.
The archaeological record would seem to support the notion of an Otherworld
as well. In many regions, Important persons were buried with everything
that was dear to them in life: weapons, feasting gear, horse trappings, and
etc. Though it could have been simply status oriented, I suspect the burial
possessions were for use in the next world.
I don't think the Druids believed in the concept of reincarnation as we have
come to view it. There was a glorious Otherworld waiting to welcome the
dead who would be reborn in a new/same body.
As in the old religions of India, Egypt and elsewhere, the Druids probably
maintained a store of knowledge that explained the soul's trip to the
Otherworld in a series of stages. Some suggest the old Irish Voyage tales
may be an impacted remnant that knowledge.
Wade Baugher
>Orion wrote in message
> Ok, first I would like to clear up saying that we don't know for fact or
> fiction wether the druids believed in Reincarnation or not, but from many
> books I have read, they didn't.
>
> I have read many books on Druid, ranging from the metaphysical type
> Druid books and these say that they believe in Reincarnation, but the more
> Historical type books that look at Druids as History and not as a current
> religion make it quiet clear that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation.
> An example is the book The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean
Markale.
> In his book he does state that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation,
but
> that when they died they passed on into the OtherWorld. But this didn't
stop
> them from returning, instead the Druids could pass back into the physical
> world as animals and omens to help other druids learn and to be teachers.
So
> I guess this could be a form of Reincarnation, but from what it seems they
> didn't come back as another human form to live life again.
>
> I know I will get a lot of bashing for this, but it is what I have
read
> and is also what I believe.
>
> ---Wes--->
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maeve
all that lot.
Peace,
Maeve Silverface
"Don't you think the joker laughs at you?" --John Lennon "I Am the Walrus"
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/6660 Tuesday Morning
Lok...@excite.com
Noinden
93198079...@news.remarQ.com>,
"Orion" <pa...@metro.net> wrote:
All I have to say is DO NOT BELIVE
EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ!!!
Druids seldom if ever wrote down core
beliefes so why sould the books you read be
accurate?
However the point hass to be made that many
Irish legends show cycles of lives! Thus it is
not beond belife to say that the druids belived
in the REBIRTH of the soul! Reincarnation or
not I think they did!
Slan agat
Gareth
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Searles O'Dubhain
and statements that support a Druidic teaching and belief in reincarnation
that includes the spirit going back into another body after a period of
being discarnate.
There are two stories that I recall from Irish literature that include
Cu/Chulainn (in one) and IIRC Caiolte returning from the Otherworld in
bodily form to have discussions with St. Patrick. There is the tale told
about how the "Ta/in was Recovered" where Fergus Mac Roith returns to
reveal the entirety of the Ta/in to the son of Santen Torpeist. These are
cases of inhabitants of the Otherworld (after death) returning to this
world in bodies (and not as ghosts per se).
These are a part of the diverse and universal Celtic belief in
reincarnation that has persisted in Celtic areas over thousands of years. I
believe that Evans-Wentz included surviving folk belief in his study of the
Fairy-Faith. In my essay on the subject, I've included other examples such
as the tales where people change shapes to live over time; the tales where
they shape-change to animal form to cheat death; the tales where a deity
informs mortals that a person's spirit will be reborn again. I haven't yet
included some of the examples from the tales where peoples spirits are
restored to their own bodies through Drai/ocht or the complete body of the
tales where sleeping heroes or kings will return to their people in times
of need. I also haven't included the examples from the immrama that tell
about voyages into the Otherworld , a return from it and perhaps a tie
between the two worlds that reflect a direct connection between
spiritual/physical interactions.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Orion <pa...@metro.net> wrote in article
<93200190...@news.remarQ.com>...
> > You seem to be saying that you don't think the Druids believed in
> > reincarnation but you turn right around and say they returned from the
> > Otherworld after death to this one. If that's not reincarnation, what
is
> > it?
>
> What I was saying was that I don't think they viewed reincarnation as in
> coming back as another human with no knowledge of their previous life.
What
> I believe and what it sort of sounds like from what I have read is that
> after they died they passed into the otherworld, but were able to pass
back
Wade Baugher
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
> If you'll go to the site listed in my previous message,
For some reason your site wasn't functioning last night... I'll try again
today.
> you'll see stories and statements that support a Druidic teaching and
belief
> in reincarnation that includes the spirit going back into another body
after a
> period of being discarnate.
The point being made was about what body and where that body resides when
reborn. In the modern notion of reincarnation the soul is reborn on earth
in
another completely different body with no awareness of the former life.
(Actually this varies depending on the tradition.) The descriptions by many
classical authors, the vernacular texts, and the archeaological evidence,
seem
to support an Otherworld as the last stop. The dead are expected to be
reborn
in their own body in the Otherworld. (Possibly requiring a journey to get
there.)
That hardly qualifies as reincarnation as we have come to know it. In many
ways it's more like a proto-Heaven.
> There are two stories that I recall from Irish literature that include
> Cu/Chulainn (in one) and IIRC Caiolte returning from the Otherworld in
> bodily form to have discussions with St. Patrick. There is the tale told
> about how the "Ta/in was Recovered" where Fergus Mac Roith returns to
> reveal the entirety of the Ta/in to the son of Santen Torpeist. These are
> cases of inhabitants of the Otherworld (after death) returning to this
> world in bodies (and not as ghosts per se).
That the veil between this world and the Otherworld is easily and often
pushed aside seems to support the non-reincarnation model. Especially
if the heros return to this world in their former body.
> These are a part of the diverse and universal Celtic belief in
> reincarnation that has persisted in Celtic areas over thousands of years.
A rather grandiose statement. Having not grown up in a Celtic country,
I'll have to take your word for that one. Have you considered that the
widespread belief may stem from the outgrowth of the misassociation
of Druidic philosophy with Pythagorean Transmigration of Souls by classical
authors long ago.
> I believe that Evans-Wentz included surviving folk belief in his study of
the
> Fairy-Faith.
The Fairy-Faith is quasi-modern, highly impacted myth/folklore. The
diminution of the Celtic Ancestors/Gods over time into small annoying
beings has less weight historically than the tales penned about the Fairy's
progenitors, the Tuatha De Danaan, in the eighth through twelfth centuries.
> In my essay on the subject, I've included other examples such
> as the tales where people change shapes to live over time; the tales where
> they shape-change to animal form to cheat death;
Shapechanging is IMHO not related to reincarnation. (Though on occasion
it may take on a similar appearance.) I believe it was considered a
magical function of Druidry. In the Fled Bricrend (Bricriu's Feast, Lebor
Na Huidre)
Uath mac Imomain practices Druidechta (Druidism) and can take on any shape.
In the Tucait Indarba Na Dessa (the Reason for the Expulsion of Dessa,
Lebor Na Huidre) a Druid of the Dessi transforms himself into a cow. The
list
is almost endless. And not only to Druids transform themselves, they can
transform others as well. Merlin, in order to help Utherpendragon have his
way
with Ygerna, changes him into her husband's likeness, Ulfin into that of
Jordan,
and himself into that of Britaelis (Geoffery of Monmouth, History VIII, 19)
> the tales where a deity informs mortals that a person's spirit will be
reborn again.
I'm curious about the source for this last... it's the only thing mentioned
that
sounds anything like reincarnation in its usual sense.
> I haven't yet included some of the examples from the tales where peoples
spirits
> are restored to their own bodies through Drai/ocht
Druid powers... healing... not reincarnation.
> or the complete body of the tales where sleeping heroes or kings will
return
> to their people in times of need.
Druid magic... the hero will awaken in his own magically preserved body
with all his former powers and abilities. Not really reincarnation.
> I also haven't included the examples from the immrama that tell
> about voyages into the Otherworld , a return from it and perhaps a tie
> between the two worlds that reflect a direct connection between
> spiritual/physical interactions.
Once again these tales seem to support the non-reincarnation or
Otherworld model. As mentioned in my previous post, the Immrama
may represent the remnants of a lost body of knowledge
regarding the stages of death before eventually reaching the Otherworld.
Wade Baugher
> > > Orion wrote in article
Wade Baugher
Searles O'Dubhain wrote in message
> I personally believe in reincarnation and also believe that the Druids
> taught about it and experienced it. This topic comes up every so often
> here, so I assembled what I've written previously into an essay called
> "Celts, Karma and Reincarnation" at:
> http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/celts_and_karma.html
>
was down last night. Excellent work. Though I find other elements in
a few of the of the selected passages; they seem to be more low-tech
descriptions of the high-tech concept of genetics rather than
indicators of lineage reincarnation.
You allow for a much broader definition of reincarnation than I was
considering. From within that framework, the Celts had many traditions
that could easily be thought of as reincarnation.
Wade Baugher
PS Apologies for not checking your site this morning before posting the
rather lengthy rebuttal. Seems you've got the scholarly stuff pretty well
in hand... we just disagree on some interpretations. :-}
Orion
different definitions of reincarnation. I was going into the definition of
being completeley reborn in a new body with no awarness or knowledge of a
previous life...I was saying that the druids didn't believe in that. Though
I am saying that they do believe in coming back in different bodies in such,
but they still have the same awareness and knowledge of everything they had
learned in their actual life. So I guess this is were the confusion was.
Personally I believe that after I die I will pass on to the other world and
live there, but if needs be I would be able to pass back into the physical
world maybe as an animal, or as a tree, or even as another person to help
those who need to find the truth. So sorry for any confusion I caused.
---Wes--->
1 X 2 Willows
378e0564.3308$2...@news.op.net...
>
> The point being made was about what body and where that body resides when
... to answer in a somewhat gallant way ...
Why not wait for one's turn to find out, and besides - who gives a #X@!
about the modern notion anyway...
In short - I don't think we are to extrapolate the one'n only way, the
'rules' and the mechanisms for coming back by the way of studying what has
been and what has been recorded in the past.
It's magic, chaknow ? :-)
Welcome, and Sla/n
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/euro-celts
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Das Ausland beginnt fuer manche dort, wo ihr Denkvermoegen aufhoert."
"For some people, 'abroad' begins where their imagination comes to an end"
Heinrich Wiedemann
..................................
1 X 2 Willows
>
> [....]
. Excellent work. Though I find other elements in
> a few of the of the selected passages; they seem to be more low-tech
> descriptions of the high-tech concept of genetics rather than
> indicators of lineage reincarnation.
The Summerlands are a teaching place more than anything else, as well as a
place for the community to exchange scholar thoughts in an modern, everyday
language. I'm quite sure that Searles could phrase his core statement and
opinion wrapped in an academic vocabulary with the same conclusions.
Forgive me to say it this way - I'm doing this only because I know he
himself wouldn't.
Sla/n
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..................................
PJS
>In article <
>93198079...@news.remarQ.com>,
> "Orion" <pa...@metro.net> wrote:
>All I have to say is DO NOT BELIVE
>EVERYTHING THAT YOU READ!!!
>
>Druids seldom if ever wrote down core
>beliefes so why sould the books you read be
>accurate?
All I have to say is DO NOT BE SO FATUOUS.
---
"...and the Scottish division one game between Taste of Dunfermline
and Strathcarnage cannot be stopped."
Albert Boyle
range of geography, the only possible answer is that some did sometimes
believe in reincarnation, and others did not sometimes believe in
reincarnation. There can be no concrete 'yes' or 'no' answer to this broad a
question.
Al
Noinden
13.9e...@news.demon.co.uk>,
"PJS" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> All I have to say is DO NOT BE SO FATUOUS.
Ah yes that is an adult reply is it not! Well I
have a reply for you too!
So I am not allowed an opinion of my own???
Many stupid things have been written about
the Druids by people who should know better.
So Just because it is written does not make it
correct.
I hold the opinion that I stated. Druidry was
an Oral tradition. YOU also dod not comment
on the rest of my post. Thus you have no
right to call me impotent.
Listen learn and be silent if you have
NOTHING of worth to add to this discussion.
slan agat
Gareth
--
"Ni dheanfadh an saol capall ras d'asal."
PJS
>In article <932070138.26519.0.nnrp-
>13.9e...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "PJS" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> All I have to say is DO NOT BE SO FATUOUS.
>Ah yes that is an adult reply is it not! Well I
>have a reply for you too!
>
>So I am not allowed an opinion of my own???
>
>Many stupid things have been written about
>the Druids by people who should know better.
>So Just because it is written does not make it
>correct.
>
>I hold the opinion that I stated. Druidry was
>an Oral tradition. YOU also dod not comment
>on the rest of my post. Thus you have no
>right to call me impotent.
But the opinion is silly. It's like saying that dinosaurs never wrote
anything down, so therefore palaeontology must be flawed.
Searles O'Dubhain
not as necessary. The idea about the Otherworld and the passages between
it and this one is to show that such passages do occur, lending more
credence to the idea of reincarnation as such. They are not direct
evidence of the phenomena but can be considered as corollary evidence.
The cases of Cu/Chulainn's birth and Mongan's birth are the examples where
deities have foreknowledge that individuals will be reborn. Thee needs to
be quite a bit more research into the ancient traditions and scribal
renderings to clear the air about reincarnation as considered and believed
by the ancient Celts and Druids. The facts and other information must be
clearly linked and supported with unbiased and objective data. In the
realm of opinion and experience I already know the answers. It's being
able to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm still working on.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Wade Baugher <xremo...@op.net> wrote in article
<378e1743.3854$1...@news.op.net>...
>
> Searles O'Dubhain wrote in message
> > I personally believe in reincarnation and also believe that the Druids
> > taught about it and experienced it. This topic comes up every so often
> > here, so I assembled what I've written previously into an essay called
> > "Celts, Karma and Reincarnation" at:
> > http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/celts_and_karma.html
> >
> I was able to read through the article today. For some reason the site
> was down last night. Excellent work. Though I find other elements in
> a few of the of the selected passages; they seem to be more low-tech
> descriptions of the high-tech concept of genetics rather than
> indicators of lineage reincarnation.
>
Taliesin_2
variations/Cults.
I wouldn't use Cults as a operative term, but perhaps colonies/settlements,
FWIW.
--
--
"Philosophy is the attempt to catch a black cat in a
dark room, without the cat actually being there at
all." - Pablo Cruz ICQ: 9815080
Operator Taliesin_2 of #SacredNemeton on IRC PaganPaths
Taliesin_2
Conchobar's chariots it states that a noinden is a debility or birth pangs.
Old Irish I believe. Don't know what it means in Modern Irish though...
Anybody know?
BTW, I mean no offense, just found it interesting is all...
Green Man
A factual, historic study will show that the "Celts" (not sure about the
Druids) did not believe in reincarnation.
The Samhain festival is testament to that fact.
Wade Baugher
Those annual Druidic conferences with the Carnutes in Gaul must
have been no place for the meek or ineloquent.
Wade Baugher
Noinden
13.9e...@news.demon.co.uk>,
--------------
> But the opinion is silly. It's like saying that dinosaurs never wrote
> anything down, so therefore palaeontology must be flawed.
To begin with palaeontology IS flawed in
many ways ... if being incomplete is being
flawed. AND second Druidry a creature but a
spiritual path.
ALL I said was do not belive EVERY thing you
read. Many of the concepts of druidry are
based on a BIASED Roman point of view. As
the Celts SLEDOM wrote stuff down it is hard
NOT to use it. BUT to belive EVERY thing
wrtitten down is to NOT follow the Druid
path.
So get off my case if you please.
THE original poster has now rephrased their
view more to my liking. They should have
originally said: Druids did not belive in the
Karmic view of Reincarnation.
Grumble grumble grumble
Wade Baugher
> 1 X 2 Willows wrote:
> The Summerlands are a teaching place more than anything else, as well as a
> place for the community to exchange scholar thoughts in an modern,
everyday
> language. I'm quite sure that Searles could phrase his core statement and
> opinion wrapped in an academic vocabulary with the same conclusions.
I found the language in its current state to be precise and well written.
I've come to believe that the newsgroup format lends itself to rampant
misunderstandings. Without body language, vocal inflection, and other
clues to help, communication suffers. One way to combat the inherent
deficiencies is to use highly measured and considered language.
(Some might say overwrought.) Oh well... we've all got our foibles.
Wade Baugher
--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--
Nine knots upo' this thread
Nine Blessings on thy head
Noinden
tlxj3.528$Dt2.7...@audrey2.cais.com
>,
"Taliesin_2" <sh...@cais.com> wrote:
> Noinden. What a interesting moniker. In the story of Macha racing
> Conchobar's chariots it states that a noinden is a debility or birth pangs.
> Old Irish I believe. Don't know what it means in Modern Irish though...
> Anybody know?
>
> BTW, I mean no offense, just found it interesting is all...
>
> --
> --
Noah-den or noah-Doin) Litterally means a
period of 5days and 4 nights OR 4days and 5
nights. It was the typical period of a Geas. It
fits me well I'm told.Wether it is reference
to the original stories affect or not ....hmmm
my teacher smiled when I took that name ...
shes funny like that. She also smiled when I
strted learning Glamoury ... hmmmmm
*Paranoid mode to full*
Glad you put Talesin_2 ... I would hate to be
considered one with Talesin of Alt.pagan ...
Brrrr *shakes*
Notice however I sign my REAL name. *G*
Slan agat
GARETH
Elaine Stutt
"Taliesin_2" (sh...@cais.com) writes:
> Noinden. What a interesting moniker. In the story of Macha racing
> Conchobar's chariots it states that a noinden is a debility or birth pangs.
> Old Irish I believe. Don't know what it means in Modern Irish though...
> Anybody know?
Not in my dictionary. E
Stormy
I'll have to agree with the assesment you have that it varies depending on
the tradition. For the most part, the Celts were sorta like a sponge,
sopping up everything it came in contact with and blending it together to
form something uniquely their own. Thus we have the reincarnation
traditions, the "Valhalla" traditions, ect., depending on which path of the
migration you follow.
Stormy.
Wade Baugher <xremo...@op.net> wrote in article
Searles O'Dubhain
good a chance of being right using this logic.
"Orion is quite wrong. A factual, historic study will show that the "Celts"
(not sure about the Druids) did believe in reincarnation. The Samhain
festival is testament to that fact."
Let's quote the facts along with the opinions please. Honoring one's dead
*while* they were in the Otherworld in no way negates the possibilities of
reincarnation.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Green Man <valh...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<7mm7ct$ire$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
Wade Baugher
> Wade,
> I'll have to agree with the assesment you have that it varies depending on
> the tradition. For the most part, the Celts were sorta like a sponge,
> sopping up everything it came in contact with and blending it together to
> form something uniquely their own. Thus we have the reincarnation
> traditions, the "Valhalla" traditions, ect., depending on which path of
the
> migration you follow.
Good point... though it wasn't all sopping. That sponge did a wee bit of
scouring here and there. ;-}
Wade
1 X 2 Willows
"Since Druidry existed over a vast period of time and over an equally vast
range of geography, the only reasonable answer is that some did sometimes
experience reincarnation and therefore pass on their beliefs as their
subjective truth, and others did not sometimes experience reincarnation and
thus voiced their opinion on the question in an unfavorable way. There can
be no concrete 'yes' or 'no' answer to this broad a question.
What do you say, Al? There's still my drawback of having another language
than English at the core of my thought pattern. Corrections, anybody?
--
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/euro-celts
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Das Ausland beginnt fuer manche dort, wo ihr Denkvermoegen aufhoert."
"For some people, 'abroad' begins where their imagination comes to an end"
Heinrich Wiedemann
..................................
Albert Boyle <Alb...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
7mlgmp$fl8$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net...
> Since Druidry existed over a vast period of time and over an equally vast
> range of geography, the only possible answer is that some did sometimes
> believe in reincarnation, and others did not sometimes believe in
> reincarnation. There can be no concrete 'yes' or 'no' answer to this broad
a
> question.
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
1 X 2 Willows
>
> [....]
> Those annual Druidic conferences with the Carnutes in Gaul must
> have been no place for the meek or ineloquent.
Indeed...
By hearsay from descendants of the Helvetii, I've heard that one usually
left with just as many fresh bruises as newly acquired friends.
;-)
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..................................
1 X 2 Willows
> [....]
> I've come to believe that the newsgroup format lends itself to rampant
> misunderstandings. Without body language, vocal inflection, and other
> clues to help, communication suffers.
That is so true...
- and additionally, there's always this last impression about a similar, yet
completely separate subject which lingers on and echoes into a next strain
of thought. That seems to have been the case here, and I apologize for
intruding.
--
Wade Baugher
> > [....]
> > I've come to believe that the newsgroup format lends itself to rampant
> > misunderstandings. Without body language, vocal inflection, and other
> > clues to help, communication suffers.
> > [....]
>
> 1 X 2 Willows wrote
> That is so true...
> - and additionally, there's always this last impression about a similar,
yet
> completely separate subject which lingers on and echoes into a next strain
> of thought. That seems to have been the case here, and I apologize for
> intruding.
> --
No apologies necessary. It was not at all clear what I was referring to.
Seems I broke my own "measured and considered language" rule before
I posted it. <G>
Wade
wyrd...@excite.com
"Searles O'Dubhain" <sea...@summerlands.com> wrote:
> But I could say the same thing with reverse the meanings and have just as
> good a chance of being right using this logic.
>
> "Orion is quite wrong. A factual, historic study will show that the "Celts"
> (not sure about the Druids) did believe in reincarnation. The Samhain
> festival is testament to that fact."
>
> Let's quote the facts along with the opinions please. Honoring one's dead
> *while* they were in the Otherworld in no way negates the possibilities of
> reincarnation.
> --
> Searles O'Dubhain
> http://www.summerlands.com
>
I agree with Searles on this one. The Celts (and the Druids) did believe in
the immortality of the soul. What happened after death is up to
interpretation. Because they believe in the cyclic view of life, one has a
tendency to believe in reincarnation. This is not necessarily true.
Basically, it all matters on how you look at it. You could end up spending
eternity in the Otherworld (Tir na Nog) or come back as a dog, tree, or
human.
And another thing, do not generalize all Druids into one category. I'm sure
that some did believe in the return of the soul. The only way of knowing for
sure is to travel back and ask SEVERAL druids their opinion on the matter.
With Love and Honor
Michael aka wyrddboy
Albert Boyle
Since some people might have accepted the experience as genuine while others
might have dismissed it as fantasy; and since these beliefs would likely
change over the centuries, the only correct answer to the question, "Did the
druids believe in reincarnation or did they reject the concept?" is, "Yes".
;-)
Unfortunately, the Celts don't seem to have an equivalent of the "Helgi"
cycle. This is a set of three sagas in which Helgi Hundingsbane is reborn
twice into a total of three lives. In the last one, his wife Svava -- from
the second saga -- is also reborn so that they can continue on together.
Something like this would be a definitive answer. But we aren't likely to
see anything like that in the Celtic texts.
Al
Ken R.D.
> Unfortunately, the Celts don't seem to have an equivalent of the "Helgi"
> cycle. This is a set of three sagas in which Helgi Hundingsbane is reborn
> twice into a total of three lives. In the last one, his wife Svava -- from
> the second saga -- is also reborn so that they can continue on together.
>
> Something like this would be a definitive answer. But we aren't likely to
> see anything like that in the Celtic texts.
>
> Al
That last one seems to recall to me the Irish concept of an "Anam Cara",
or a soul mate in the eastern beliefs. Again, there is a correlation.
Ken R.D.
Ken R.D.
wyrd...@excite.com wrote:
> I agree with Searles on this one. The Celts (and the Druids) did believe in
> the immortality of the soul. What happened after death is up to
> interpretation. Because they believe in the cyclic view of life, one has a
> tendency to believe in reincarnation. This is not necessarily true.
>
> Basically, it all matters on how you look at it. You could end up spending
> eternity in the Otherworld (Tir na Nog) or come back as a dog, tree, or
> human.
>
What about how the view of the cyclic of life (reincarnation or not)
relates to sacrifices? Could there be another purpose or focus here?
When a criminal was sacrificed, for whatever reason, and his/her soul
too had the same nature as all other spirits, then s/he could either end
up in the Otherworld to cause problems on our departed love ones still
remaining there, or be reborn in another form/body to cause more
problems here in the physical world. Or, did the sacrificial rituals
include some type of warning and lesson to give the victims the sense
that this was a "repayment" for their actions?
What about animal sacrifices? If a person could be reborn or live as an
animal, then all animals share the same nature of spirit that people do?
If so, then the sacrifice of an animal, such as a powerful prized bull,
might be to release its strong spirit for migration to a human form, but
to what purpose? Could it have been that the sacrifice of a strong
animal spirit, asking for aid in some endeavor, had a possibility of
releasing a spirit that could become a warrior or leader coming to the
aid of the sacrificers in their time of need?
I know these questions are naive, and speculative, but I think you all
can see where I'm going with this. :-)
> And another thing, do not generalize all Druids into one category. I'm sure
> that some did believe in the return of the soul. The only way of knowing for
> sure is to travel back and ask SEVERAL druids their opinion on the matter.
>
Absolutely. Like lumping all Muslims together as terrorists, or all
Christians together as bible-thumping-witch-burning-zelots. They don't
like that, you know. :-)
> With Love and Honor
> Michael aka wyrddboy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Peace
Ken R.D.
Searles O'Dubhain
being his own father reborn seems like another.
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Albert Boyle <Alb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<7mo2pc$9i7$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
<snip>
Albert Boyle
Sorry. I have a hard time understanding a lot of the Celtic literature. It
seems to be -- disjointed -- somehow, and I must have missed the Finn
Cycles. (Or at least that part of them.)
I'll try to read it again, and see if it makes more sense this time.
But the Helgi sagas spell out a belief in reincarnation in unequivocal
terms. They state explicitly that Helgi was reborn into a total of three
lives. This does not mean that the belief was widespread, nor does it mean
that those who believed in reincarnation thought that everyone would come
back. But it is a direct statement of the belief.
Al
Albert Boyle
Indians, the Celts, and the Germanics had fairly close ties... The Indians
and Celts through their language, and the Germanics and Celts through
proximity.
Al
Albert Boyle
animal). He explains that, as the world was created from the body of the
first sacrifice -- who was also the first king -- so the sacrificial human
was, in effect to renew the world by his death. Special mention being given
to healing herbs as an important thing to be renewed
And since the first food sprang from the body of the first sacrificial
animal -- a bovine -- so the sacrificial cows renewed the fertility of the
land.
If you can get it at your library (it is unforunately out of print), I
highly recommend (again :-) ) "Myth, Cosmos, and Society (Indo-European
Themes of Creation and Destruction)". I got my copy by hunting down a
bookseller who speciallizes in out of print books on the Web.
Al
Kevin Jones
>
> I personally believe in reincarnation and also believe that the Druids
> taught about it and experienced it.
My two penn'orth:
The Festivities of the House of Conan
"Tell me," says Conan to Fionn, "who among the Fenian heroes is he who
leaps over his own gravestone every day, whose own daughter is his
mother, and who is demanding eric and reparation from the man who killed
him, though he is himself alive?"
"I will tell you that," says Fionn. "Two Fenian chiefs of my people,
namely Oscur, the son of Criomthann, and Daoglas, son of Cairrill Cas,
one day quarrelled about a fight that occurred between two dogs, and
Daoglas was slain on that occasion. The beautiful marriageable daughter
of Daoglas came over to him, and having stooped down to kiss him, a red
spark of fire flew from his mouth into hers, and she became pregnant in
consequence, and brought forth a broad crowned son in due time; and
since no other name was found for him, he was called by the name of his
father. He was nurtured in a fitting manner until his seventh year; and
the first feat of youthful folly that he performed was to leap over his
own gravestone; and he is now demanding eric from Oscur, son of
Criomthann."
Cormac's Glossary
Alternatively tuirigin means 'overtaking birth', that is a successive
birth that passes from every nature into another, that is the birth of
the true nature.
Kevin
Kevin Jones
>
> Actually, I think that you are closer to what I meant to say than I was.
>
> Since some people might have accepted the experience as genuine while others
> might have dismissed it as fantasy; and since these beliefs would likely
> change over the centuries, the only correct answer to the question, "Did the
> druids believe in reincarnation or did they reject the concept?" is, "Yes".
> ;-)
>
> cycle. This is a set of three sagas in which Helgi Hundingsbane is reborn
> twice into a total of three lives. In the last one, his wife Svava -- from
> the second saga -- is also reborn so that they can continue on together.
They do - Tochmarc Etaine. Midir's claim on Etaine is that she was his
wife in an earlier existence.
Kevin
PJS
>According to the best source I have available to me right now. The East
>Indians, the Celts, and the Germanics had fairly close ties... The Indians
>and Celts through their language
Eh???
---
"...and the Scottish division one game between Taste of Dunfermline
and Strathcarnage cannot be stopped."
Fog racer
Funny you should say that.
generally it is forgotten that nearly everything we have on druids was written
by the Romans
LoL just imagine what Christianity would look like in 2 thousand years if all
the "new" Christians had to go on were the Buddhists views of our time
Foggy
Albert Boyle
that there are many similarities between Sanskrit words and Celtic words.
And a good many of the mythic structures are shared between both cultures.
As for the Germanics, Since they rubbed elbows -- so to speak -- with the
Celts for centuries, there is a substantial amount of interaction between
the two groups.
That is what I was getting at.
Al
Albert Boyle
Now I do feel silly.
Sorry about that.
Al
Gwydion Ash
All of these similarities between the Celts, Indians, and Germans stems from
their common Indo-European ancestry. The Celts and Germans, as representatives
of the Western Branch of Indo-European, share many common mythological themes,
especially the Continental Celts. And even though they were in close contact,
the mythological similarities stem from their common Western I-E heritage
rather than interaction because the two groups were constantly fighting, unless
the Germans were being employed as mercenaries, as they were in the wars
against Caesar.
The Celts and Indians were also the two branches of Indo-European that were on
the peripheries of the Indo-European speaking ancient world. It is also these
two cultures, along with Italic, who had a priesthood (druids, brahmans, and
flamens) and also retain the PIE reg- in their respective languages. The Druids
and the Vedic Brahmans also had the sanctity of the word, relying more on
orality than writing.
May the Gods guide you on your jouney!
Gwydion Ash
http://members.aol.com/Gwydionash/index.html
1 X 2 Willows
19990720015215...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
> [....]
> and also retain the PIE reg- in their respective languages.
> [....]
That seems to be a commmonly known abbreviation in English linguistics.
Would you care to explain the meaning to a Walch? :-)
--
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
Searles O'Dubhain
PIE = Proto Indo-European.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
1 X 2 Willows <dtf-...@access.ch> wrote in article
<7n1nqc$a1o$1...@pacifica.access.ch>...
<snip>
Wade Baugher
> All of these similarities between the Celts, Indians, and Germans stems
from
> their common Indo-European ancestry. The Celts and Germans, as
representatives
> of the Western Branch of Indo-European, share many common mythological
themes
I recently read an excellent book called "Noah's Flood" by William
Ryan and Walter Pittman; both well respected researchers. It's
just the kind of book I like. A good old fashioned archaeological
detective story coupled with interesting speculations based on the
results of the science. Their work may go a long way toward
explaining some of the shared mythological roots of not only the
proto Indo-Europeans, but also the pre-dynastic Egyptians,
Semites, Ubaids, and Tocharians. I'd highly recommend it.
Wade Baugher
--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--
Nine knots upo' this thread
Nine Blessings on thy head
PJS
>Gwydion Ash wrote:
>> All of these similarities between the Celts, Indians, and Germans stems
>from
>> their common Indo-European ancestry. The Celts and Germans, as
>representatives
>> of the Western Branch of Indo-European, share many common mythological
>themes
>
>I recently read an excellent book called "Noah's Flood" by William
>Ryan and Walter Pittman; both well respected researchers. It's
>just the kind of book I like. A good old fashioned archaeological
>detective story coupled with interesting speculations based on the
>results of the science. Their work may go a long way toward
>explaining some of the shared mythological roots of not only the
>proto Indo-Europeans, but also the pre-dynastic Egyptians,
>Semites, Ubaids, and Tocharians. I'd highly recommend it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Tocharians Buddhists?
Gwydion Ash
>
Tocharian is the easternmost of the branches of the Indo-European family. The
language is found in Chinese Turkestan from manuscripts that were the work of
Buddhist monasteries (the manuscripts are dated from the 6th to the 8th
centuries CE). Tocharian is divided into two dialects - Tocharian A, the
easternmost, and Tocharian B, the western dialect. Like the Annatolian branch,
it appears to have broke off from the original PIE homeland at an early date
because of the archaisms that it preserves and the innovations that are absent
from it. One of the interesting details about Tocharian is that it is a centum
language and not a satem language. Prior to the discovery of Tocharian, it was
thought that the centum languages were confined to Europe and the satem
languages to Eastern Europe and Asia. Tocharian also have very many close
similarities to Celtic.
Albert Boyle
Sanskrit and Celtic families share many traits that Celtic does not share
with any of its I-E neighbors.
As for the Celts and the Germanics --
There are areas of France and Germany that have traded hands for centuries
as first one nation then the other reconquers lands lost in war. The same
holds true for Germany and Poland.
Before there were set borders and well-defined nations, the common grounds
between cultural groups would have been much more fluid. This would lead to
exchanges of ideas.
During the height of the Cold War, the US and the USSR were very much aware
of what the cultures in each other's lands was like. Interest in Russia was
pronounced in the US, and many books and movies were written about its past
as well as its present.
Some of it was disinformation, or satire. But the "Soviet Threat" captured
the popular imagination, and we all wanted to know enough about them to
guage the threat for ourselves.
This same sort of wish to "know your enemy" is prevalent among human beings
in all ages of the world. So I have no doubt that there was very good
knowledge about the Germanics among the Celts, and vice versa.
Elaine Stutt
"1 X 2 Willows" (dtf-...@access.ch) writes:
> Gwydion Ash <gwydi...@aol.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> 19990720015215...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
> That seems to be a commmonly known abbreviation in English linguistics.
> Would you care to explain the meaning to a Walch? :-)
> Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
Searles did that but... what is a Walch ? Derivation ?
Elaine
Gwydion Ash
>Sanskrit and Celtic families share many traits that Celtic does not share
>with any of its I-E neighbors.
This is because the IE traits of the main neighbors of the Celts - the Greeks,
Italians, and Anatolians - did not prevail. The IE traits of these three
groups took a back seat to the Mediterranean substratum culture that was
present when these IE speaking people came into these regions. This is why the
Greeks and Anatolians are not very useful in Indo-European comparative studies.
The Italic branch, while taking on many traits of the Etruscans, does prove
useful because of archaic traits that it retains in ritual and mythology. The
main branches of Indo-European that are used in Indo-European comparative
mythology are the Indo-Iranian branch (Sanskrit and Iranian), German, and
Italic, with Celtic and Balto-Slavic useful to some degree. If Celtic had not
had such a taboo against writing and taking so long to put its myths into
writing, it would be very useful in IE studies - more informative than it
actually is. For example, there are many Celtic deities who are similar to
Vedic deities, but due to a lack of substantial Celtic mythology, it is hard to
ascertain whether or not the Celtic deities retain the same IE traits as the
Vedic deities. Of course, the cultures that each groups came into contact with
should always be taken into account, and this is especially true for the case
of the Insular Celts, who appear to have inherited a substratum mythos that
makes it somewhat different from the Continental Celts, who are more akin to
the Germans.
1 X 2 Willows
7n3pqi$2...@freenet-news.carleton.ca...
- another, regional way of spelling 'Welch' - the Germanic root word
meaning:
"One who speaks in a foreign tongue"
...me! :-)
--
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..................................
Albert Boyle
to the Celtic myths to which I was referrefing when I said --
"This is not to say that the East Indians spoke Gaelic, or vice versa. But
that there are many similarities between Sanskrit words and Celtic words.
And a good many of the mythic structures are shared between both cultures."
The particulars of why they are similar are interesting, but not crucial to
my argument.
Are you by any chance an I-E scholar? I have been wanting to get back into
college to study that field myself.
Al
Marc Lachance
> Albert Boyle wrote in message <7mr26j$2dm$2...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
> >According to the best source I have available to me right now. The East
> >Indians, the Celts, and the Germanics had fairly close ties... The Indians
> >and Celts through their language
> ------------
> Eh???
It's called the "Indo-European Language Group". The (theoretical) reason
that the linguistic similarities in India are so strong in the east
(rather than the geographically closer west) is that the Turks did a lot
of (linguistic) damage...
--
/\ Marc Etienne Lachance, KSC, LMAA
/<>\ Episkopos without a cabal,
/____\ Non-Leader of Something or Another.
PJS
<19990720164441...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
I already knew all that, thank you. My question was, that if the Tocharian
manuscripts date from a time when they had been converted to Buddhism,
whoever mentions them as a source for comparative mythology must be mistaken
somewhere.
PJS
<1dv9hyy.i9...@ppps21.bayreuth-online.de>...
>PJS <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Albert Boyle wrote in message <7mr26j$2dm$2...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>> >According to the best source I have available to me right now. The East
>> >Indians, the Celts, and the Germanics had fairly close ties... The
Indians
>> >and Celts through their language
>> ------------
>> Eh???
>
>It's called the "Indo-European Language Group". The (theoretical) reason
>that the linguistic similarities in India are so strong in the east
>(rather than the geographically closer west) is that the Turks did a lot
>of (linguistic) damage...
I see precious little similarity between, say, Irish and Sanskrit over and
above what there is between, say, Latin and Hittite.
Gwydion Ash
>manuscripts date from a time when they had been converted to Buddhism,
>whoever mentions them as a source for comparative mythology must be mistaken
>somewhere.
>
I have never seen Tocharian material used as a source for comparative
mythology.
jjb
1 X 2 Willows wrote in message <7n418t$qr3$1...@pacifica.access.ch>...
>- another, regional way of spelling 'Welch' - the Germanic root word
>meaning:
>"One who speaks in a foreign tongue"
You may be thinking of the Saxon word 'wealsc' or 'wealas'
('foreigner,stranger) - they applied this term to the Britons and the word
welsh is derived from this.
Jerry
1 X 2 Willows
Jerry,
The linguists Schneider & Wehrli traced this term back to the Alamannic
root - "Walch, Walh, or Welsch", being a name for somebody who "talks in a
foreign language".
It seems to have found its way into the English language by way of
Anglo-Saxon, yes.
The term has endured the centuries and is nowadays still being applied to
the French speaking Swiss, who are certainly not foreigners or strangers to
us and the whole Romandie is still commonly known as the 'Welsch Land'.
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
Marc Lachance
> I see precious little similarity between, say, Irish and Sanskrit over and
> above what there is between, say, Latin and Hittite.
The problem is that I'm not a linguist, so I can't give you a lot of
examples. My favorite exaple is the connection between Danu, the Danube
(or "Donau"), and Aditya. There were also examples of "Taboo words" that
I unfortunately can't cite. However, Peter Beresford Ellis has written
an easily digestible form.
Another thing to remember is that this is all just theory. It is True in
some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and
false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and
meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some
sense. Fnord.
Wade Baugher
PJS wrote:
> I already knew all that, thank you. My question was, that if the Tocharian
> manuscripts date from a time when they had been converted to Buddhism,
> whoever mentions them as a source for comparative mythology must be
mistaken
> somewhere.
The book I mentioned; "Noah's Flood" describes geological events that
happened in the Black Sea around 7600 years ago. The authors are
renowned geophysicists who have painstakingly detailed substantial
evidence of a massive flood.
The Black Sea was, prior to the breaching of the Bosporus Straits,
a fresh water sea of about half its current size. Prior to the breach,
the mini-ice age was causing severe droughts elsewhere. The theory
is that a huge body of fresh water in a region of semi-desert would
have been an oasis. When the straits broke, the water turned salty,
fish died, the margins of the lake were submerged and the people were
forced to disperse. Through this shared experience of being forced to
abandon their homelands, the diaspora may have preserved the flood
stories and passed them down as the many deluge myths we know today.
In further speculation, the authors suggest that the diaspora of that event
may help explain the archaeological record of an influx of different peoples
into all directions at about that time. To the north, northwest, and west
the
proto Indo-Europeans, Linear Pottery farmers, Vincas, Hamangians, and
Danilo-Hvar. To the northeast and southeast the proto Indo-Europeans,
Tocharians, Semites, Ubaids, and pre-dynastic Egyptians.
They paint a thoroughly convincing picture that should fuel much scientific
debate and research. As mentioned before... the book is well worth the
read.
Wade
PJS
>PJS <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I see precious little similarity between, say, Irish and Sanskrit over
and
>> above what there is between, say, Latin and Hittite.
>
>The problem is that I'm not a linguist, so I can't give you a lot of
>examples. My favorite exaple is the connection between Danu, the Danube
>(or "Donau"), and Aditya.
One letter the same...?
-----------------
There were also examples of "Taboo words" that
>I unfortunately can't cite. However, Peter Beresford Ellis has written
>an easily digestible form.
If this Ellis person is who I think, then I don't trust him further than I
can throw him . . . but of course, it could be another Ellis I'm thinking
of.
----------------
>Another thing to remember is that this is all just theory. It is True in
>some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and
>false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and
>meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some
>sense. Fnord.
SMOF.
Albert Boyle
Specifically, go to your library, and find a book on Indo-European studies.
The best, and most recent, authors I have found are H.R.E.Davidson.
J.P.Mallory, and Bruce Lincoln. Colin Renfrew also wrote several books, but
his ideas are somewhat dated, and were, I believe, controversial when
written.
Al
Gwydion Ash
cognates in different IE languages, is the concept of the sound shifts that
occurred within the different IE languages once they had broken off from the
homeland. For example, the PIE vowels E, O, and A became A in the Indo-Iranian
subfamily (Sanskrit and Iranian), while retaining their original sounds in
Latin, Greek, and Celtic. Another example is Insular Celtic, which underwent
major sound shifts from Continental Celtic and Proto-Celtic, and this has been
attributed to the indigenous languages of Britain and Ireland that the Celts
came into contact with.
Some of the correspondances between Indo-Iranian and Italo-Celtic that are
important in terms of religious and legal vocabulary are:
"king" (Latin rex, Old Irish ri, Gaulish rig-, Vedic Sanskrit raj-)
"law" (Latin ius, Vedic yos, Old Iranian yaoz-)
"holy" (Old Irish noib, Old Persian naiba)
"believe" (Latin credo, Old Irish cretim, Sanskrit sraddha, Old Iranian zrazda)
These peripheral languages (Indic and Iranian on one end and Celtic and Italian
on the other) retain these religous and legal correspondances and this has been
attributed to two factors. First, peripheral languages tend to retain
archaisms, while internal languages tend to innovate. Another factor is that
these peripheral languages also had strong priestly classes (brahmans, flamens,
and druids).
One final thought: IE linguistics, and linguistics in general, is a science
which contains very complex "rules" in regards to phonetics, syntax, and
grammar which must be understood in order to understand how IE linguistics
operates, and how the different IE languages are related to one another as well
as how they are related to the reconstructed and hypothetical PIE community
from which they came.
Elaine Stutt
>> >meaning:
>> >"One who speaks in a foreign tongue"
>>
>> You may be thinking of the Saxon word 'wealsc' or 'wealas'
>> ('foreigner,stranger) - they applied this term to the Britons and the word
>> welsh is derived from this.
>
> Jerry,
>
> The linguists Schneider & Wehrli traced this term back to the Alamannic
> root - "Walch, Walh, or Welsch", being a name for somebody who "talks in a
> foreign language".
> It seems to have found its way into the English language by way of
> Anglo-Saxon, yes.
My Websters take it back to Old English 'wealh' with the meaning of
Celt, Welshman or foreigner. Then it says "akin to the source of
L Volcae, a Celtic people of southeastern Gaul". L standing for
latin. Don't know how they got that.
Elaine cu...@ncf.ca
Marc Lachance
> If this Ellis person is who I think, then I don't trust him further than I
> can throw him . . . but of course, it could be another Ellis I'm thinking
> of.
Well, his book are "The Cornish Language and Its Literature", "A
Dictionary of Celtic Mythology", "Celt and Saxon" and "The Druids". He
was also chairman of the Celtic League from 1988 to 1990.
I'm not saying these arguments are true. I'm merely saying that if you
read them, you can better understand what they're saying. And if you can
better understand what they're saying, then you can better refute them
(if that is your desire).
I'm too busy desinging a pseudo-Celtic version of Discordianism at the
moment to get too serious about this debate, though.
After all..
we know even less about the Celtic deities that we do about the historic
version of Eris. Fnord.
PJS
>
>Some of the correspondances between Indo-Iranian and Italo-Celtic that are
>important in terms of religious and legal vocabulary are:
>
>"king" (Latin rex, Old Irish ri, Gaulish rig-, Vedic Sanskrit raj-)
>"law" (Latin ius, Vedic yos, Old Iranian yaoz-)
>"holy" (Old Irish noib, Old Persian naiba)
>"believe" (Latin credo, Old Irish cretim, Sanskrit sraddha, Old Iranian
zrazda)
>
>These peripheral languages (Indic and Iranian on one end and Celtic and
Italian
>on the other) retain these religous and legal correspondances and this has
been
>attributed to two factors. First, peripheral languages tend to retain
>archaisms, while internal languages tend to innovate. Another factor is
that
>these peripheral languages also had strong priestly classes (brahmans,
flamens,
>and druids).
Italic, Persian, Celtic and Sanskrit are ALL peripheral? That leaves hardly
anything left to be "internal" except for Graeco-Phrygian and Anatolian!
-------------------
>One final thought: IE linguistics, and linguistics in general, is a
science
>which contains very complex "rules" in regards to phonetics, syntax, and
>grammar which must be understood in order to understand how IE linguistics
>operates, and how the different IE languages are related to one another as
well
>as how they are related to the reconstructed and hypothetical PIE community
>from which they came.
I'll bet you're on the IMBAS list, aren't you?
Corwin Grayswindyr
>> I think it probably worked kinda like a karma thing. Depending on your
life before and what you did
>would constitute what you came back as in the next form and that was
probably
>a well respected deal.
>
I am new to studying ancient Celts and the Druids in particular. I didn't
even know my interest existed until two weeks ago. Since that time I have
been trying to read all I can on the subject. In my opinion (which I'll
admit doesn't carry weight at this point) reincarnation as believed by the
druids would have followed the rules of balance. Thus if you were a king,
you would be reincarnated as a servant and so forth. In this manner your
immortal soul would become balanced, getting experience from both
perspectives. In my readings so far (which is just some web pages, really)
balance was a key to the druidic ways of life.
Ken R.D.
Corwin Grayswindyr wrote:
>
> >"Ken R.D." <red...@spam-not.c2i2.com> writes: >
> >> I think it probably worked kinda like a karma thing. Depending on your
> life before and what you did
> >would constitute what you came back as in the next form and that was
> probably
> >a well respected deal.
Hey, that was not my quote! Mine started further down with "What about
how the view of ciclic life..."
Someone must have mix quotes together and ascribed them all to myself.
Thanks anyway, though. I tend to agree with your view on it actually.
but, that may be attributed to the fact that I am like yourself, just
starting out and reading a lot (no teachers in this neck of the desert).
Ken R.D.
Kevin Jones
Cos, if I recall, the term was already old and in use on the continent
when the Saxons moved into Britain and applied it to the locals, whence
it eventually mutated to 'Welsh'.
Kevin
Gwydion Ash
>anything left to be "internal" except for Graeco-Phrygian and Anatolian!
The "internal" languages would be Greek, Armenian, Anatolian, German, Baltic,
Slavic, and Phrygian, as well as the slightly attested Thracian and Illyrian
languages.
>I'll bet you're on the IMBAS list, aren't you?
>
I am not on the IMBAS list, nor am I very familiar with them. Aren't they the
ones who stress scholarship and strong foundation in Celtic languages?
mikethedruid
are linked and are manifestations of the one will. As such, they believe in
what is often called the Universal Metampsychosis... which is not
reincarnation in the Indian sense, but a retrurn to the union of wills and a
universal rebirth in all creation.
Mike
Orion wrote in message <93198079...@news.remarQ.com>...
>Ok, first I would like to clear up saying that we don't know for fact or
>fiction wether the druids believed in Reincarnation or not, but from many
>books I have read, they didn't.
>
> I have read many books on Druid, ranging from the metaphysical type
>Druid books and these say that they believe in Reincarnation, but the more
>Historical type books that look at Druids as History and not as a current
>religion make it quiet clear that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation.
>An example is the book The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean
Markale.
>In his book he does state that Druids did not believe in Reincarnation, but
>that when they died they passed on into the OtherWorld. But this didn't
stop
>them from returning, instead the Druids could pass back into the physical
>world as animals and omens to help other druids learn and to be teachers.
So
>I guess this could be a form of Reincarnation, but from what it seems they
>didn't come back as another human form to live life again.
>
> I know I will get a lot of bashing for this, but it is what I have read
>and is also what I believe.
>
> ---Wes--->
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>------
>I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge
>That myth is more potent than history
>That dreams are more powerful than facts
>That hope always triumps over experience
>That laughter is the only cure for grief
>And I believe that Love is stronger than death.
> ---The Storyteller's Creed
>
>The way to love anything is to realize that it may be lost.
>
>
Deru McCannon
>Druids believe in the union of spirit... in other words... that all spirits
>are linked and are manifestations of the one will. As such, they believe in
>what is often called the Universal Metampsychosis... which is not
>reincarnation in the Indian sense, but a retrurn to the union of wills and a
>universal rebirth in all creation.
A lot of druids I've met would say that they do not believe that.
Personally I'm undecided on the issue; I figure there's only one way to
find out and I can wait until it's time. In fact, that it's so hard to
see beyond the veil of death suggests that we are not meant to spend our
lives worrying about what happens after they're over.
As far as druids go, the old tales tell us of some people being reborn and
some staying at the Otherworld feasts. This suggests that there was no
particular doctrine of afterlife, except perhaps that there was one. I
think one can be a druid and believe in reincarnation, or staying in the
Otherworld, or some of both, or merging with some other consciousness, or
whatever. I also think a druid is probably better off saying, "I don't
really know, but I believe ... <whatever>" unless he or she has an inside
connection with the Gods.
Deru
--
Deru McCannon "And there's nothing more dangerous
Bastard Nation Than a man with nothing to lose
de...@coil.com Nothing to live for, and nothing to prove." -Dead Can Dance
PJS
>Druids believe in the union of spirit... in other words... that all spirits
>are linked and are manifestations of the one will.
What you mean is that YOU believe that!
C. Leigh MagFhionghaile
McCannon) wrote:
>As far as druids go, the old tales tell us of some people being reborn and
>some staying at the Otherworld feasts. This suggests that there was no
>particular doctrine of afterlife, except perhaps that there was one. I
>think one can be a druid and believe in reincarnation, or staying in the
>Otherworld, or some of both, or merging with some other consciousness, or
>whatever.
I believe we have some choices. We can decide to stay in the Otherworld,
or decide to come back to this one, or decide to cease being a seperate entity
in either. (There is also the possibility that we have a choice to become more
than one entity as well, or to exist in both worlds simutaneously.) I think a
lot of what we decide depends on what we feel the need to do, or where we feel
we are needed at the time, or what we didn't learn last time that we should
have, or whether or not we need a rest...well, a lot of factors would come
into play.
Spirit has many choices, and our view of the afterlife is only limited by
the possibilities we can't imagine.
TopazOwl
Searles O'Dubhain
a Druid. The journey into truth beyond death and the return certainly gives
a person a better perspective on what happens in the Otherworld and a
connection to more of their own spirit. I liken this phenomena to NDE as
well as Shamanic journeying. In other arenas, I've called it imbas, but
that term is as misunderstood as the name Druid.
--
Searles O'Dubhain
http://www.summerlands.com
"Athert an Daogdae, 'An cumang arba/gaid-si/, doge/n-sou ule am a/onur.' "
"Then said the Dagda, 'All these powers that you have said that you will
command, I will myself command.'"
Deru McCannon <de...@bronze.coil.com> wrote in article
<7nk4pg$7te$1...@news.concourse.com>...
<snip>
Mike Ashlock
you would come back to finish things that where not complete in the one life
you left. Although we are a select few that are left in this world we have
came back. The great Merlin, of Arthur said, that all life is a circle and
that we shall forever be here in this world.
PJS <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:933110987.6944.0...@news.demon.co.uk...