ARD
Bright Thunder
Me thinks ARD should consider setting up a structure of discussion,
wherein folks can make suggestions as to how Neo Druidry can better
serve the communities in the upcoming years. I think a summary should be
published here for any not suffering from competitive egos to hopefully
embrace and use as a guideline for strengthening the total Druid way in
the near future.
All the posturing and competition I see here is childish.
As one of Native American heritage, I constantly observe an endless line
of spiritual seekers flocking to learn of our Indian ancestral pre
christian spiritual philosophies and related ritual practices. These
people are sincerely in need and Druidry "could" fill their needs within
the context of their own culture.
I think that those who wish to define themselves as Druids should give
some sincere effort to defining those values we all hold in common, so
that we can create some kind of consciousness solidarity, wherein the
seekers can find as much of value in the Druid way.
Only too often, I hear the so called Druids saying the ancients did not
really give much attention to nature. To this I say, then was then and
now is now. We as humans have trashed the earth and if Druidry is to
have any substance whatsoever we should address this issue and put a lot
more attention towards the health of the environment and peoples
relativity to it and a lot less energy into debating mythology and very
questionable historical writings.
I have been accused of being anti book here before on more than one
occasion. The truth is I see Druids arguing over "that which is
written", to be as ridiculous as the Christians arguing over biblical
interpretation.
I see Lewis Spence is still alive and well here. Smile!
respectfully Niall
P.S. maybe Druidry should put a lot less emphasis on religion and
selling the way and give a lot more attention to altruism and idealism.
There are enough culture and tradition whores in the world.
Bright Thunder
It will make for lots of stimulating conversation.
Cheers Niall
Searles ODubhain
that no thought has been given to the topic after your message was posted.
Some of us have been considering the subjects (of common values and respect
for Nature) for quiet some time now. What values do you see as common to
those who are Druids? How do you think a person can assist Nature in
resisting the onslaught of modern corporate greed and political ambition?
Searles
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B7D8330...@softcom.net...
Bright Thunder
remote unspoiled areas as often as possible and ritual words/scripts should be
prepared that give particular attention to our human relativity to all else
within the sacred web of all life, not only on earth but within the entire
universe. Just one way of repeating a constant affirmation of the sacredness of
nature which includes our own selves. I am a firm believer in the god within
and the inherent responsibilities that go with such sacredness. Even if others
do not wish to call themselves priests, I see all Druids as to be of the
priesthood and hope they would not repeat the many hypocrisies of the now
dominant religions.
I feel this very same priesthood should do all within it's power to be
altruistic as well as idealistic and the main thrust should always be community
service.
Just as important in my eyes is the unity or solidarity issue between all who
call themselves Druid. Just as in the American Indian communities, Druids often
tend to be their own worst enemies, what with all the posturing and potential
for squabbling.
Spending my 68 years deeply involved within many Indian communities throughout
the western United States, I have seen an endless line of young open minded
Caucasian spiritual seekers who would do anything to get involved with a
tradition that embraces earth or nature spirituality. I have personally tried
to direct many of these seekers towards Druidry as it relates to their own
European heritage. They go look and always come back and say Druidry is just
one more man god religion that is only concerned with the well-being and needs
of man.
No other "pagan" spiritual path I know of has more potential for growth and
community service than American Druidry. I think those who would choose to
lead, should look a lot more to the needs of the seekers. They should tap into
this hugh resource of young folks who are looking to reconnect with nature.
In my opinion Druidry as it manifests here in this news group, is way to
obsessed with the correctness or incorrectness of old writings. I think we all
should all realize that the time of the Druid gods and hero's is still with us
and not only in the distant past. All who think of themselves as Druids need to
accept the challenge to become today's Druid hero's.
At my age it makes little sense to me to even consider a leadership role in the
future of Druidry, but hopefully I can convince a few of the need to get more
connected to mother earth.
I fully realize that I do not think as most others and sincerely apologize if I
have offended anyone, especially those who insist on mixing Christianity with
Druidry.
Niall
Searles ODubhain
wants to claim it for their own and reshape it at the same time. I agree
with you that we should define and support our values through actions more
than words. At the same time, we can't afford to lose touch with the past of
Druidry or the teachings of its ancients. If there is to be a future or a
present that is Druidic, then the past must also exist just as fully. It is
the foundation of what being a Druid was, just as we will all be judged to
determine what Druidry is now. What the future thinks or does is going to
be based on what we do. As I said, we'd best do as well as know or talk. We
have to walk the way as well. One of the best lessons a Druid can teach is
by being an example of a steward of Nature in all that he/she does. Let
people admire us for what we do and how it affects the world. Maybe then,
they will also want to help make the world a better place. Only later should
they discover that these good things are Druidry. Let there first be a Druid
within and then a declaration of that state without to the world.
Seeing a fire is perhaps the best incentive and explanation of what a fire
is, as well as its benefits and desirability. Perhaps one must first see the
deity within to discover that there is deity in everything else and that it
is a diversity in action.
Searles
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B7DDC53...@softcom.net...
> I for one feel the bonfire festivals aka sabbats should be held out of
doors in
> remote unspoiled areas as often as possible and ritual words/scripts
should be
> prepared that give particular attention to our human relativity to all
else
> within the sacred web of all life, not only on earth but within the entire
> universe. Just one way of repeating a constant affirmation of the
sacredness of
> nature which includes our own selves. I am a firm believer in the god
within
> and the inherent responsibilities that go with such sacredness. Even if ot
hers
> do not wish to call themselves priests, I see all Druids as to be of the
> priesthood and hope they would not repeat the many hypocrisies of the now
> dominant religions.
<snip>
Bright Thunder
Indian. Growing up and reading, I encountered so many myths and legends. To me
they were a quagmire into which one could fall and drown. I think modern Druids
would do well to say, study the material culture of the ancients, or to work to
make the rites and rituals as substantive as possible, i.e. delve into the
practicle things that can guarentee a future for the path.
If no one knows the Druids are here, they miss the opportunity to join in.
Druids need to give great attention to being seen. Locally we volunteer to work
to save the oak groves and help the forest service plant trees. We do our best
to be seen as conservative/practical and not simply show up at pagan gatherings
in robes where we have to take the heat for every fool in the county. You know,
the types with the crystal staff going hither and yon calling themselves a
wizard and spouting from the 21 lessons of Merlin.
I would like to see more dialog on alt religion druid regarding other aspects of
"living druidry" and not so much about some old moldy book. I would like to hear
ideas regarding how we can go about being positively identified by our local
communities and not seen just as freaks.
I think too many who call themselves Druid tend to not "be Druid" as much as to
live vicariously through the ancients. I don't see that much difference between
most Druids and the Treckies.
Niall
Dana
> Hello all Druids!!!!
Well, I don't go around calling myself a Druid, but......
> Me thinks ARD should consider setting up a structure of discussion,
But..........ARD *is* a structure for discussion. That's what a
newgroup is. Anything further sounds
like forming a committee to discuss forming a committee to discuss forming a
structure..... I'd hate to see us emulate the worst of corporate America
and get lost in analysis paralysis. We go off on enough tangents here as it
is.
> wherein folks can make suggestions as to how Neo Druidry can better
> serve the communities in the upcoming years.
Hmmm.... Considering the amount of verbal vitriol I've seen you toss at
Neo-Druidry, I've got to wonder why you care. And.....surely the time spent
discussing all this structuring to discuss things would be better spent
going out into the community--or the environment--and actually *doing* some
service?
I think a summary should be
> published here for any not suffering from competitive egos to hopefully
> embrace and use as a guideline for strengthening the total Druid way in
> the near future.
Whoa! Wait a minute...... Guidelines? Structure? This is all starting to
sound rather hierarchical. "Total Druid way"? Do I hear the dread footstep
of Druid Dogma?
> All the posturing and competition I see here is childish.
Posturing and competition is certainly childish, but if you're honest you'll
admit you've contributed quite a bit of it.
> As one of Native American heritage, I constantly observe an endless line
> of spiritual seekers flocking to learn of our Indian ancestral pre
> christian spiritual philosophies and related ritual practices.
Yep, I'm aware of this phenomenon and find it pretty sad and shallow.
>These
> people are sincerely in need and Druidry "could" fill their needs within
> the context of their own culture.
Now this seems like a genuinely positive, constructive notion.
However.....how do
you let these people know Druidry exists? A big sign at the entrance to the
rez? (eewww.....) Handing out pamphlets? (double eewww....)
Proselytizing is such Bad Form and destroys the dynamic
of "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear." And....how do we
know Druidry is the right direction for them? Does anyone have the right to
arbitrarily make this determination for these Seekers obviously just setting
out on their paths to the point of trying to sell them on something? The
Druid path is not for everyone, after all. Isn't their stumbling around
part of a necessary learning experience? Isn't that in fact what being a
Seeker is all about, rejecting a ready-made dogma adhered to in ignorance
and setting out to find the Truth, knowing it won't be any easy task and
that mistakes will be made?
> I think that those who wish to define themselves as Druids should give
> some sincere effort to defining those values we all hold in common, so
> that we can create some kind of consciousness solidarity, wherein the
> seekers can find as much of value in the Druid way.
Hmmm..... I've been on this ng for awhile. I've seen some pretty serious
disagreements, both personal and on fundamentals, but
I really think I could throw out a basic "values" question such as "Do you
believe the Land is sacred?" or "Should we look to the ancient Druids for
examples of learning and integrity?" and get a majority agreement here.
Seems to me that most people here already have a defined set of basic values
in common--or they'd be somewhere else.
But......conscious solidarity?? What would that entail and why do we need
it at more than a baseline level? We're all Seekers here, with our own
paths to walk--and our own mistakes to make. Too much emphasis on structure
and conformity and sitting in judgement sounds like establishing a dogma and
making Druidry into a centralized One True Way religion. Why do that?
Doesn't this automatically require a hierarchy of Those Who Know and set up
a
barrier between the Enlightened Ones and those the Enlightened Ones
determine are *not* enlightened (regardless of what the truth is), a barrier
that *cannot* be crossed without assistance (and approval!) from said
Englightened Ones? Isn't that exactly what we're trying to get away from?
Why would we want to so disempower the individual and cease paying heed to
personal merit and efforts, the validity of which may not always be obvious
on the surface (or on the internet!). Who in the world would advocate this
for Druidry
unless.........*they* plan on being at the top of said hierarchy to be
saying who is accepted and who is rejected. To determine who the
True Druids are and be the big kahuna calling the shots....... Do I
see a pattern here? Anybody know what the Gaelic is for "Taliban"?
> Only too often, I hear the so called Druids saying the ancients did not
> really give much attention to nature.
Which particular Druids are you referring to? I don't recall anyone who
calls themselves a Druid saying this here. IIRC, the point has been made
that the ancient *Celts* cleared forests and otherwise rearranged the Land
as they found it, but there's a big difference between rearranging the
landscape and disrespecting it. In any case, the environmental problems we
face today are not the result of the trees chopped down 1,000 years ago--or
in fact much of anything that was done to the Land until the last 200 years
or so. And it will take far more to solve those problems than wishing and
talking since the people perpetuating them are not here hanging on our every
word.
To this I say, then was then and
> now is now. We as humans have trashed the earth and if Druidry is to
> have any substance whatsoever we should address this issue and put a lot
> more attention towards the health of the environment and peoples
> relativity to it and a lot less energy into debating mythology and very
> questionable historical writings.
I would certainly agree that people should get out there
and do more in service to the Land. Yet quite a lot *is* being done and
every respectable Druidic organization I'm aware of has this encouragement
and commitment, if not actual programs, at the top of their agendas, as do
quite a few (if not most) of the broader pagan organizations. So it's not
as though the problem is being ignored. Structures and guidelines do in
fact already exist. Why not avail ourselves of these instead of wasting
time and effort inventing more?
As for academic debate......after all, the ancient Druids were renowned
for the depth and breadth of their learning and respected for this even by
their enemies. Unless we are completely redefining Druidry by rejecting all
that we do actually know of past practice and inventing anew out of whole
cloth to avoid having to do some bookwork, it seems to me we ought to be
carrying the honorable tradition of learning forward into the modern day and
emulate our learned ancestors. Sure, this debate can sometimes go over the
edge
into pointless folly, but so can the rejection of
culture and learning in favor of slavish rusticity. Chairman Mao tried to
force
China into that in the Cultural Revolution--he failed miserably and the
scars will take generations
to heal.
> I have been accused of being anti book here before on more than one
> occasion. The truth is I see Druids arguing over "that which is
> written", to be as ridiculous as the Christians arguing over biblical
> interpretation.
>
> I see Lewis Spence is still alive and well here. Smile!
>
Again, it's about doing. See above. And even the most apparently pointless
debate just might enlighten somebody.
> respectfully Niall
>
> P.S. maybe Druidry should put a lot less emphasis on religion and
> selling the way and give a lot more attention to altruism and idealism.
> There are enough culture and tradition whores in the world.
>
The world has always been full of whores--but they couldn't exist without an
able and willing clientele. I totally agree that Druidry should get away
from
auditioning to be a religion and emphasize altruism and idealism and
personal responsibility. I see a
lot of folk on a Druidic path accomplishing this. I see you ripping into
quite a few of them. If you really believe what you've said in this post,
why aren't you lending your assistance to what's already out there instead?
Daibhi
> Actually no response is a quintessentially definitive response. Thanks!
> It will make for lots of stimulating conversation.
>
> Cheers Niall
>
>
But, no response is sometimes a powerful response. It is not necessarily
a response of negativity but can represent a positive response as well. I
am like many who have a problem dealing with some of the Draoicht that is
out there today. As I said once before, we have an enchanting coffee
shop, yeah good stuff there, with the exception of the owner. I've a
major problem with someone who advertises themselves as a 33rd Level
Druid...My response was to his assertation was "facinating." What can I
say, me mum taught me to say that to someone rather than 'bugger off'.
:^)
There is a great deal of validity in the old world views and writings
when you can find something that is not so far off in left field that it
makes your teeth ache.
Slan Naill!
Daibhaid
Bright Thunder
Niall
Dana wrote:
Bright Thunder
explained the "common" mindset neo Druidry to all outsiders. Chaos and constant
reinventing of the wheel by every neubie that comes down the pike, has been the
norm in Druidry for years, take OBOD as a prime example. Hell take any
worthwhile endeavor, it always gets taken over sooner "than" later by the lowest
"common" denominator. Would you mind if I printed out your invaluable words of
wisdom for posterity? I'll even send copies to my Wiccan elder friends to show
them they are not alone in their thinking. Neo Druidry and Wicca have a lot more
in common than I could have ever have imagined.
Thank you so much for opening my eyes, I'll be ever indebted.
Niall
Bright Thunder
Niall
Dana
> I'm sure folks wonder why I scoff at mythology. It's because of being
raised
> Indian. Growing up and reading, I encountered so many myths and legends.
To me
> they were a quagmire into which one could fall and drown.
I think modern Druids
> would do well to say, study the material culture of the ancients,
Whoa!wait a minute.....in your earlier post you were complaining about this
very thing! Make up your mind!
or to work to
> make the rites and rituals as substantive as possible, i.e. delve into the
> practicle things that can guarentee a future for the path.
Guarantee a future for the path? Hmmmm. Personally, I think the Path,
having existed for eons, is quite capable of taking care of its own future.
This begins to sound like fundie christianity, that thinks god can't do jack
without followers to do it for him.....
> If no one knows the Druids are here, they miss the opportunity to join in.
> Druids need to give great attention to being seen.
"Being seen" is one thing.......but let's avoid proselytizing here. Leave
that to the chrisitan fundies, they're so into it......
Locally we volunteer to work
> to save the oak groves and help the forest service plant trees.
Excellent and outstanding! Keep it up, by all means!
We do our best
> to be seen as conservative/practical and not simply show up at pagan
gatherings
> in robes where we have to take the heat for every fool in the county. You
know,
> the types with the crystal staff going hither and yon calling themselves a
> wizard and spouting from the 21 lessons of Merlin.
Yeah.....it's so tempting to climb on a soapbox when the pagan equivalent of
fundies come around......but proselytizing is proselytizing is a Thing To Be
Avoided.
Unless of course one is on a personal ego trip.
> I would like to see more dialog on alt religion druid regarding other
aspects of
> "living druidry" and not so much about some old moldy book.
I personally would agree that discussion about how to live a Druidic life.,
i.e., a life in service to the Land, is a very valid topic here. In fact, I
do see it being discussed on a regular basis--were you perhaps not here for
that? OTOH, Druidry doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor is it a recently
manufactured spirituality such as wicca. So some discussion of history and
ancient texts necessarily goes with the territory. I'm always suspicious of
someone who uses the term "moldy old book".......it usually means they're on
the defensive because they just can't bear to do any reading on their own
account.
I would like to hear
> ideas regarding how we can go about being positively identified by our
local
> communities and not seen just as freaks.
Well, it's basically a PR problem--and when spirituality & PR are
bedfellows, they tend to produce a child known as....Proselytizing. (I keep
using that word.........it *does* mean what I think it means.......) I
know christians who are embarrassed by fundie rhetoric and activities just
the same as we're embarrassed by 21LOM types & rabid Dianic wiccans. If
everyone would realize that extremists of either persuasion are just that,
we could move on to the real issues, but the politics of PR don't usually
allow that. Which says to me we should avoid being political, but I realize
not everyone feels that way.....
> I think too many who call themselves Druid tend to not "be Druid" as much
as to
> live vicariously through the ancients. I don't see that much difference
between
> most Druids and the Treckies.
Based on your track record, Niall, I'd say you don't *want* to see a
difference because it would upset your personal applecart. In fact, I could
introduce you to long-time Trekkies who are also pretty respectable Druids,
both in practice and lifestyle. Anybody here ever heard of Jim Fox-Davies &
his wife Susan? (I know of at least two besides myself who have......).
Dana
Bright Thunder
being "reinvented" and it suffers from serious growing pains and major belly
laughs from all outsiders.
Back to the coffee klatch, squishing beer cans and dippers for you. Your way out
of your league here and smoke and mirrors won't help you one bit. You have far
to little experience to even attempt to get into such a conversation. Your words
prove without a doubt how inexperienced in these ways you really are.
However do keep in mind that you are at the very same time the quintessential
example of neo Druidry, and that is something to be proud of in itself.
Niall
Doreen
<snip>
> > > All the posturing and competition I see here is childish.
'nuff said.
~ D
1X2 Willows
LOL
Dan
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B807288...@softcom.net...
1X2 Willows
> The "path" has not existed for eons, it is only currently in the process
> of being "reinvented" and it suffers from serious growing pains and
> major belly laughs from all outsiders.
All good intentions aside...
Funny that you keep promoting the path as an 'insider' on some elusive
Internet News Groups, while you show no interest in promoting Druidry in the
real, physical world, Jim. Might it be, that you keep confusing the 'path'
with the 'Craft', Lord Cuchulainn?
If 'the path' in the purely celtic druidic meaning hasn't existed for eons
(in a rhetorical sense in which we use the word today, of course, and not
in the nitpicking scientific definition) and this path is being
re-invented... when do you think it got invented in the first place? 1500BC?
1530? 1948? Seemingly random years, I agree, but you know as well as I do
what they mean, or do you?
> Back to the coffee klatch, squishing beer cans and dippers for you.
Is this directed at who I think it is directed to?
You're talking to an honorable Lady here, whom I personally know,
just as I know you, Jim. Mind your manners, Jackass.
"Please" - may I add...
> Your way out
> of your league here and smoke and mirrors won't help you one bit.
The correct abbreviated form for "you are" would be "you're" and she
certainly isn't, as far as a comparison of smoke, mirrors, hippocracy and
and BS is concerned (a comparison between talking to you and her in person,
that is...). Aaaah the splendid real life experience...
- beats this NG chat stuff anytime...
> You have far to little experience to even attempt to get into such a
> conversation.Your words prove without a doubt how inexperienced
> in these ways you really are.
Without a doubt? Without whom's doubt?
Without the doubt of an objective person writing from his heart, bare of own
chips, quirks and ego? I think rather not...
Besides - what 'ways' do you refer to? Once more English traditional Wicca?
> However do keep in mind that you are at the very same time the
> quintessential example of neo Druidry, and that is something to be proud
> of in itself.
Sarcastic as ever... only...
Before you even try to belittle a person as knowlegable as Dana, remember
all the statements I've got on file from you, Mr.Onellion. You might be a
native American whatever and a Wiccan whaterver, but with an approach
as the one demonstrated by you in the physical realms, you're
just as neo Druid as everybody else here.
- guess you should have listened to CT a tad more intensively than you
appear to have listened to all the voices of hatred, pain and jealousy in
your life. Desperation might not play such an important role nowadays.
Anyway - The wheel turns with or without you. Then again - the wheel is not
a familiar concept to certain traditional beliefs. Hmmmh...
Life is fabulous
Dan
Bright Thunder
come down the pike. Just get home from the bar?
Niall
Dana
> Thanks for the detailed response dan,
Umm......I'm Dana. Dan's somebody else. He's the boy, I'm the girl.
> it pretty well verifies the way I have
> explained the "common" mindset neo Druidry to all outsiders. Chaos and
constant
> reinventing of the wheel by every neubie that comes down the pike, has
been the
> norm in Druidry for years,
Oh, no you don't! *You* were advocating starting "something new" in your
original post to deal with environmental issues and seekers looking in the
apparently wrong places. I suggested participating in structures that are
already in place and maintained that nothing new was in fact necessary.
>take OBOD as a prime example.
So what it is with you and OBOD? I see you trash them a lot and I've seen
where you posted some time back that somebody gave you their whole course to
read, but your view of OBOD doesn't square with even a quick perusal of
their webpage. This leads me to believe that a) you don't really understand
their position and need to do some more research or b) you have a personal
agenda that OBOD is somehow getting in the way of.
Hell take any
> worthwhile endeavor, it always gets taken over sooner "than" later by the
lowest
> "common" denominator. Would you mind if I printed out your invaluable
words of
> wisdom for posterity?
I would mind very much but I expect you'll do it anyway.
>I'll even send copies to my Wiccan elder friends to show
> them they are not alone in their thinking. Neo Druidry and Wicca have a
lot more
> in common than I could have ever have imagined.
Actually, I'm surprised you *have* wiccan friends..... Wicca by its very
definition is a religion that worships anthropocentic dieties, it's of
recent manufacture and not all that far from christianity in that it has a
liturgy and a creed and dogma. Considering all the railing you do about
those obsessed with worshipping anthropocentric gods, I'm surprised you'd
even be seen with such people.
So.......this tongue-in-cheek post of yours isn't fooling me--or probably
anybody else. You haven't really answered anything I wrote. Not that I
expected you would, but do bear in mind that everyone here can see that.
> Thank you so much for opening my eyes, I'll be ever indebted.
> Niall
Any time.
Dana
Dana
inaccurate ones! What the hell is a "dipper"?
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B8125D1...@softcom.net...
> The "path" has not existed for eons, it is only currently in the process
of
> being "reinvented" and it suffers from serious growing pains and major
belly
> laughs from all outsiders.
Yep, this paragraph explains a lot......
The Path has never ceased to exist and will never cease to exist until
humanity does. I expect not even then, but I don't claim to know about
that. What *has* happened is that we humans have forgotten how to use our
inherent abilities to perceive how to find the Path and/or stay on it,
helped in great part in the West by 2,000+ years of a religion that
gradually made spirituality into an elitist profession and, in order to
maintain that lock on status and power, continually taught that ordinary
individuals were incapable of achieving enlightenment on their own. It
comes as no surprise that so many people just setting out on a pagan path
are desperate for validation and think they can't do anything until they've
found a teacher. It also comes as no surprise that quite a few of the pagan
teachers--even sincere, well-meaning ones--get caught up in being a guru and
authority figure. And then of course there are the ones who do it
deliberately, dropping calculated hints of hidden orders, "family trads" and
secret knowledge only they can impart to those who prove themselves
"worthy". Some of them are past masters (or mistresses) of manipulating and
exploiting vulnerabilities and can play one person in the group off against
another other with a musician's virtuosity. The damage they do is
incredible. And of course they actively fight tooth and nail against
anything or anyone that encourages people to take responsibility for their
own spiritual path and listen to their inner voice because that will destroy
the dependency relationship that must be maintained at all costs to feed
their egos (and often their pocketbooks).
Yep, this paragraph explains a lot. It explains your constant abusive
antagonism to groups and individuals who are putting this information out
there in plain sight for people to find and use if they're ready. (And I do
believe someone must be *ready* to comprehend certain knowledge or they just
won't "get it", just as my 10-year-old isn't going to "get" Dostoevsky. But
someday she will.) And considering how much of your vitriol OBOD comes in
for....... Hmmmm......a recommendation in itself..... Anyone who's done
the math (I have) realizes that what they charge about covers their
materials, supplies, copying & international postage (Not cheap! $2.35 to
send a letter to Turkey!). Certainly nobody's getting rich there.
Personally, I'd be far more suspicious if they *did* supply it all for free,
wondering whose pockets it was all coming out of.......and why.....
So.....congratulations, Niall. You are making me think, although probably
not along lines you would consider comfortable. Oh well.
Dana
Dana
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:GSog7.1506$vK5.61...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Sarcastic as ever... only...
> Before you even try to belittle a person as knowlegable as Dana,
Why, thank you, kind sir, for the pleasant words to wake up to.
Life is indeed fabulous.
¦-)
Dana
<now where did I put that recipe for roast pork loin??>
John Michael Greer
> The correct abbreviated form for "you are" would be "you're" and she
> certainly isn't, as far as a comparison of smoke, mirrors, hippocracy and
> and BS is concerned
"Hippocracy"? My best guess is that this would be government by horses. Did
you, perhaps, mean to say "hypocrisy"?
More generally, all this bellowing suggests to me that there's far too much
bull running around.
John Michael Greer
C. Leigh Nic Fhionghaile
"John Michael Greer" <thre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B827AAC...@earthlink.net...
> "Hippocracy"? My best guess is that this would be government by horses.
I have one of those here. The mare allows the oldest male to think he's
the boss -- until he does something she doesn't like. Come to think of it,
that's rather the way the humans on the farm behave as well. :-)
Owl
--
************************************************
Power is not revealed by striking hard or
often, but by striking true.
************************************************
Bright Thunder
about certain facets of Wicca as I do certain facets neo druidry. I know as much
as anyone around about how new Wicca is and where every word of their core
materials come from. I know Wicca inside out, hell I've been a Wiccan third
since 1985. Dan is just trying to get even because I rejected him as a Druid
student. I'm quite sure others here rejected him before he worked his way out to
to California. I told him not to show up on my doorstep and he did anyway. There
is a whole Wiccan coven out here that will gladly attest to what an idiot Dan
becomes behind his drinking. Tell em about the Wiccan woman you abused Dan! And
how the Wiccans spent hours trying to get you to leave her alone, and how I
finally had to drag you out of their gathering.
You are making one huge mistake trying to rile me with your lies. You let a dead
dog lie and so will I, if not I can have Gwydion come here and explain the whole
situation.
Niall
Carmen
> Climb back in your bottle little man! Your about as petty a little fuck as
ever
> come down the pike. Just get home from the bar?
>
> Niall
>
what on Earth are you doing?
I occassionally pop into this ng and read some of the threads.
Thought there was some interesting stuff going on here.
and what do I find?
here you are abusing peeps
Just the other day you did similar to my good self over in another ng.
I recall my titles you bestowed upon me are:-
"a low life scum bag. "
apparently I speak 'horse crap'
"crazy as they come."
" a low down snake in the grass."
and
"an addict who goes into relapse or a mental case who
forgets her meds, or possably a man hating lesbian. "
None of which actually apply to me, that is why I personally chose to
overlook them, that you might be having a bad day or something.
But that bad day seems to persist and carried over to this ng.
You presented yourself to me as a man of 67 or 68, I guess that puts you
into the 'elder' category, but also it is written here that you are a Druid
and a Wiccan of high standing and you also presented yourself as a form of
psychological healer.
I have met many peeps in my time, of many nations, I also have had much to
do with many elders from various nation. I have never in my life seen an
elder or person of high rank, in any community, speak to other people in
the way that you are presenting here,
no matter how antagonised, upset or disgruntled they become.
I admit that my ng manners can be sometimes less than desirable, but I am no
one of any particular consequence, so it is of little real import and i
haven't announced myself with any particular 'spiritual' credentials...
I'm just 'me' :-) the fluffball .. LOL
Where I come from that is not the way of an 'elder' or any person of
position or worthy of respect.
Elders where I come from mostly tend to treat other people with humility and
respect.
If this is the 'way' of the Druid, then it is not surprising that the
numbers are not swelling.
Is this 'Spirituality' at it's finest?
carmen
Ruiseart agus Ceit
<snipped>
>If this is the 'way' of the Druid, then it is not surprising that the
>numbers are not swelling.
>Is this 'Spirituality' at it's finest?
>carmen
Carmen,
I generally just lurk here these days. That said, I am delurking to
say please don't judge all Druids and Druidry by the standards of this
man! I first learnt how to 'killfile' specifically because of some
rather rude and obnoxious emails from him, in the days when he
couldn't make up his mind which 'Path' he wanted to claim he had been
following for years. Seems that these days he has decided to claim
them all. He is not an indication of what Druids and Druidry embody,
[or for that matter Wicca, Native American spirituality....I refuse to
use the term 'Indian' although he always does.....or any other
tradition], rather, he is a nasty bitter little person who loves to
discredit everything to do with Druidry and throw insults at people
whenever he gets the chance to do so. My advice to you? Do what I have
done for the last 3 years, and just ignore him. He won't go away, but
at least he won't get under your skin.
Beannachdan oirbh,
Ceit.
http://druid.drak.net/druid/druidorder.html
LISTEN TO OUR MUSIC AT:
http://www.mp3.com/Ravenswing
Carmen
Has gone some way to restore my faith in the nature of ng posters
;-) .... very much appreciated !
I think, over a considerable time,
I have been somewhat taken in
and mislead by that person.
In fact likely my naivity has caused me to be taken in by various others as
well
:-(
However, i have opened up your website and will be reading it at length over
the next few days, when time permits
For now I must go feed our Ducks geese and chooks,
they are sounding a bit disgruntled outside.
:-)
carmen
Ruiseart agus Ceit <dru...@amitar.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b83cab9...@news.amitar.com.au...
Bright Thunder
have been cyber stalking me and baiting me for years. These people don't know
you and have no idea what a psycho you are. Of all the cowards I have ever met
you take the cake.
You need to get yourself a man and a shrink and some meds and possibly you will
then cease staliking us guys.
God you must be a miserable old hag. Haven't you anything better to do?
Niall
Kevin Jones
> Willows,
>
> > The correct abbreviated form for "you are" would be "you're" and she
> > certainly isn't, as far as a comparison of smoke, mirrors, hippocracy and
> > and BS is concerned
>
> "Hippocracy"? My best guess is that this would be government by horses. Did
> you, perhaps, mean to say "hypocrisy"?
Or possibly government by hippos - a weighty and ponderous matter that <Kevin
hums 'The Hippopotamus Song' to himself> :-)
Kevin
Kevin Jones
> Tsk, tsk......Bad Form resorting to personal insults--especially such
> inaccurate ones! What the hell is a "dipper"?
Big or Little?
Kevin
Carmen
ROTFLANNEL
:-D
Your comments say more about you than they do about me
thanks for the laugh,
have a beautiful day
Carmen
Bright Thunder <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B8417E9...@softcom.net...
Carmen
> Carman you paranoid schizophrenic bitch. Take your bull shit somewhere
else. You
> have been cyber stalking me and baiting me for years.
> These people don't know
> you and have no idea what a psycho you are.
Oh jim
anyone who does a websearch on m will note I am usually polite and humorous,
no matter the amount of baiting you attempt.
>Of all the cowards I have ever met
> you take the cake.
water of a ducks back jim
> You need to get yourself a man and a shrink and some meds and possibly you
will
> then cease staliking us guys.
I have me a nice Native man thank you. kindly
meds?
you're now a practitioner qualified to diagnose?
> God you must be a miserable old hag. Haven't you anything better to do?
plenty thanks
and in my prime
:-D
I think you are a bit pissed coz I'm not a naive as I once was with regard
to incoming emails
I have restricted access to my email and learned how to greet crap with
crap
and how to deal with misinformation that I was receiving
in that respect you are a good teacher Jim
ROTFLANNEL
carmen
Dana
"Carmen" <ca...@wave.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9m0561$6i9$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
Hi Carmen! It's good to see you--I was sorry I missed saying hi back
awhile.
> I have met many peeps in my time, of many nations, I also have had much to
> do with many elders from various nation. I have never in my life seen an
> elder or person of high rank, in any community, speak to other people in
> the way that you are presenting here,
> no matter how antagonised, upset or disgruntled they become.
> I admit that my ng manners can be sometimes less than desirable, but I am
no
> one of any particular consequence, so it is of little real import and i
> haven't announced myself with any particular 'spiritual' credentials...
> I'm just 'me' :-) the fluffball .. LOL
>
> Where I come from that is not the way of an 'elder' or any person of
> position or worthy of respect.
> Elders where I come from mostly tend to treat other people with humility
and
> respect.
> If this is the 'way' of the Druid, then it is not surprising that the
> numbers are not swelling.
> Is this 'Spirituality' at it's finest?
> carmen
>
Carmen, thanks for saying this with more forceful elegance than I could have
managed. I would also second what Ceit says about not judging Druidry on
the basis of what's been said here. But I think you know that. :-)
Take care, don't be a stranger,
Dana
P.S. How are your bees? I was thinking of them and you the other day and
wondering.
1X2 Willows
That was a baaad one indeed... :-)
I do appreciate any help I can get with this foreign language.
Dan
"John Michael Greer" <thre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3B827AAC...@earthlink.net...
1X2 Willows
I only retreat to the bottle, when I'm bored out of my mind.
- which is hardly ever the case...
About those questions ... ?
Dan
"Bright Thunder" <clo...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:3B826432...@softcom.net...
1X2 Willows
[....]
> Dan is just trying to get even because I rejected him as a Druid
> student.
Jim,
you can be a nice guy (if you choose to show that side) and you do have a
lot of interesting things to say. I was under that impression more than
three years ago (when I was still in Europe) and I still am to this day -
sort of - kind of - only different...
What I found in your person, was a man with an abnormal disgust for
Christians, the Jewish God, devoted Muslims, the western educational system
with all it's carreers, titles and financial advantages it can lead to,
academic merit and - as a rule of thumb - pretty much everything and
everybody who chooses to disagree.
In our conversations, every other sentence of yours started with:
"As it is in real Wicca..."
- with a hastily added
"just as in Druidry..."
I think you're switching roles here, by saying you rejected me.
While 'rejected' might not be the word for it, I surely got the impression -
as time went by - that the person I had met in the flesh might well have an
old violin or two stacked away somewhere, but was otoh not really the
philharmonic conductor, he presented himself as, on this NewsGroup and in
eMail. Forgive the analogy. I hope you see the humor.
I certainly don't have anything to get even with.
It's just all that disdain, that anger, sometimes even genuine hatred which
I don't identify as being fit for an advisor of mine.
- and constantly promoting this Wicca matter (in which you seem to be rooted
for the better part of the whole) doesn't help either. I have told you many
times openly and unmistakably.
I thank you for the good times we had and I hope you can get past my own
'Jackass' personality as I get past yours. That's about it...
> I'm quite sure others here rejected him before he worked his way out to
> to California.
No?
Rejectors? Raise yer hands, please, y'all!
> I told him not to show up on my doorstep and he did anyway.
LOL! You are so busted, my Lad...
"If you were here, we could make things happen."
(This is just one sentence amongst a whole conversation about meeting etc.)
- sounds familiar?
I can refresh your memory with all the various mails, if you wish.
I'd rather say that you didn't expect *me* to make things happen, did ya'?
;-)
> There
> is a whole Wiccan coven out here that will gladly attest to what an idiot
Dan
> becomes behind his drinking. Tell em about the Wiccan woman you abused
Dan!
The one that gave me a homemade remedy for an injury of mine just before we
left and waved good bye when we did? Yeah - I guess she must indeed have
been traumatized. Don't make a fool out of yourself, Jim.
> And
> how the Wiccans spent hours trying to get you to leave her alone, and how
I
> finally had to drag you out of their gathering.
Scandalous! We are not amused!
Have you tried the National Enquirer?
> You are making one huge mistake trying to rile me with your lies. You let
a dead
> dog lie and so will I, if not I can have Gwydion come here and explain the
whole
> situation.
Oh I beg you, not to. I've seen and heard enough...
Dan
Bright Thunder
You are a very intelligent and talented young man with "tons" of potential, BUT
your obnoxious goings on at that Wiccan gathering was a total turn off for
everyone, especially that woman you were relentlessly hitting on. We all felt
alcohol was behind it and hopped you were a far different person when sober. I
would not recommend total sobriety however as that is not "civilized", but you
really need to take more care and come to the realization that there is much
more to womankind than dogging them for sex.
Yes, I do cross over in my talking between my Indian heritage as well as Wicca
and Druidism. I have allegiances to all three paths and find no conflict in
that. Of all three ways, I sincerely feel the Druid path can best serve the
needs of the young Caucasian folks in this country who are searching for
substantive nature spirituality free of Christian influences. They are out there
by the thousands, were plagued by them at Indian doings. They are not there to
become Indians, but to re-establish their non Christian or pagan earth
connection. There fed up with xtian hypocrisy and violence and lies.
If I were you I would not go on trying to insult or provoke me on this news
group as I would rather fight than concede to a bully. Guess its the bein Irish
and Indian thing.
Niall
Bright Thunder
And a PS Dan. one more word of denial as to your actions at that gathering and I
will have Gwydion come here to this news group and verify the situation. You need to
know he is an orator of the highest caliber, who would love the opportunity to
discuss the matter in the presence of your fellows.
He lives close by and I'm on my way to see him right now.
Niall
Searles ODubhain
I have to say that I've rejected Dan as an associate based on his actions in
the past within our organization and as a friend, especially when he is in
the grip of his inner demons. He tends to project what he wants to see and
acknowledge onto reality and then over-react when reality catches up with
him. He has a problem with accepting responsibility for his actions.
I've never had any desire whatsoever to have him as a student though at one
time I freely supported him in his efforts to re-establish a version of
Helvetti tradition in his own country (and on the internet). He does have a
lot of talent and potential, but he also is held back in his work by issues
with society, authority and commitment. His strengths are his ability to
focus his will on projects, his courage to undertake them when their outcome
is uncertain and his creative/artistic abilities.
Usually, people are neither all bad or all good and Dan is no exception. He
has much that is good about him to be admired and he also has some very
troubling characteristics. Maybe we'll see more of his good side as he
matures and comes to grips with those things that work against him.
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:9L%g7.2050$zZ1.79...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
<snip>
>
> > I'm quite sure others here rejected him before he worked his way out to
> > to California.
>
> No?
> Rejectors? Raise yer hands, please, y'all!
>
<snip>>
Bright Thunder
somewhat sociopathic. He thumbs his nose at people who are kind to him as if he
is from another world and is only passing through. Like "I do not have to worry,
because these are not my people and they can not hold me accountable.
Hear that Dan. You do have a lot of potential, but you can be a we bit rude and
boorish. Or as you told me up in the mountains, you like to be the alpha male.
Your alpha could have gotten you in heap big trouble in that camp. Your lucky I
ferreted you out of there when I did.
When I interviewed Dan regarding Druidry, I asked him four questions.
1. What do you think Druidry is.
2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry manifest in these
times.
3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way.
4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful.
He chose to answer none of these questions. So that was that. Nothing further to
be said.
I wondered why he even brought up the subject and why he came all the way to
America and clear to California, if he could/would not even express himself.
Niall
Stacey
1. What do you think Druidry is.
2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry manifest in these
times.
3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way.
4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful.
I would be interested in reading others' responses. I am assuming you mean
modern Druid practice in all of them.
Stacey
Noinden
> Carman you paranoid schizophrenic bitch. Take your bull shit somewhere else. You
> have been cyber stalking me and baiting me for years. These people don't know
> you and have no idea what a psycho you are. Of all the cowards I have ever met
> you take the cake.
>
> You need to get yourself a man and a shrink and some meds and possibly you will
> then cease staliking us guys.
>
> God you must be a miserable old hag. Haven't you anything better to do?
>
> Niall
>
May I humbly suggest you please, PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP. Troll you
have no idea how to converse with the folks here. Hence you are
ignored for the most part.
If you so desire to discuss Druidry, Druidisim, Celtic spirituality,
Celtic History, Celtic reconstructionisim, or even Indo-European
matters. Feel free you will most likely be shown the time of day.
Otherwise you are leaving yourself open to being reported to your ISP.
Understand? Learn manners or be banished for a time!
Demeithu
Gareth
Bright Thunder
beginning of the twenty first century.
I always ask these questions right up front. If the person can not or is
unwilling to articulate upon each of the questions at great length, I stop the
interview. No use proceeding any further.
I have pretty well stated my opinions regarding the four questions here on many
occasions and seem to only antagonize people in the process.
This is exactly why I stopped by once again. I am trying to get a grasp on where
neo Druidry is and where it's going. I really prefer the "pagan" version, but
see that others do not. May have to reactivate with Wicca as Druidry is going in
an entirely different direction than that which suits me.
I am getting to be ashamed to call myself Druid as in these times that denotes
OBOD or Culdee. As they are seen, so then will I be seen.
Niall
Carmen
Dana <dh...@sdge.com> wrote in message
news:G_Wg7.1976$Ej2.76...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Carmen" <ca...@wave.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:9m0561$6i9$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
>
> Hi Carmen! It's good to see you--I was sorry I missed saying hi back
> awhile.
That's ok
and like-wise-woman ... :-D
I intend to delve more deeply into Ceit's site
however this will take a certain amount of time commitment
so may have to go my current activism activities in nz.politics for a while.
> Take care, don't be a stranger,
Dana, I just gets stranger and stranger
LOL
>
> P.S. How are your bees? I was thinking of them and you the other day and
> wondering.
it's not good
our bees are fine for now
however we have some major deveolpments happening here,
the intro of Varroa mite last year,
chemically based bee confusing pollens in the form of
Pioneer corn seed, pesticides etc
and now a Royal Commission report which recommends to Govt the intro of GE
seed field trials.
One thing leads to another and in effect they are all related
signs of the times I guess.
Well I'll keep it brief
Regards
carmen
1X2 Willows
It was I who packed my bags and left.
For my own reasons, I did this in the physical world/your home just
as I did it on the Internet/the Summerlands.
I have learned my own bit from this experience and I leave the two of you in
the process until I
see a result. For the sake of peace, that is all I shall have to say.
regards
Dan
"Searles ODubhain" <odub...@home.com> wrote in message
news:mNah7.107335$k7.26...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> Since you asked:
>
> I have to say that I've rejected Dan as an associate based on his actions
[....]
Bright Thunder
Dana
"Kevin Jones" <1006...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3B84215F...@compuserve.com...
LOL!!!
Thanks, Kevin, I needed that.....
<ggg>
Dana
Searles ODubhain
I know exactly why you left our home here in Huntsville, where Deborah and I
provided you with hospitality, and why you left the Summerlands as well.
There's no mystery for me on either score. I certainly didn't kick you out
of either place even though I could have done so. You left for San Antonio
because you thought you had a great opportunity to set up shop down there in
a location that a mutual friend was making available to you. The window of
opportunity demanded an expeditious reaction from you. You left the
Summerlands because you felt that I was trying to run things like a dictator
(your opinion) and you wanted to run things in Euro-Celts as an independent
operation (even though I never told you how to run it while it was being
freely provided by the Summerlands).
It was after you had left both locations that your online behavior became a
bit strange and self-destructive. Much of what I'm addressing in this
paragraph can be seen in the newsgroup messages from just about a year ago.
I wonder what happened to your opportunity in San Antonio?
I've learned some things from the experience of dealing with you over the
years. Some things were good and others not so good. As to peace, I think
it's wonderful. I personally would like to get back to discussing how we can
live and act like Druids in this day and age, which is what was occurring
here on alt.religion.druid before this latest episode occurred.
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:yJeh7.2165$Ks7.84...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
1X2 Willows
[....]
> Like "I do not have to worry,
> because these are not my people and they can not hold me accountable.
Wherever I live on Earth, I am living in a grid of a given Society, and I
have to behave accordingly just as everybody else has to. The rest is
personal. Don't mix those two up, Jim.
> Hear that Dan. You do have a lot of potential, but you can be a we bit
> rude and boorish.
May I suggest snobbish instead? I'd agree in a heartbeat.
I tend to get that way, as soon as I'm faced with what I identify as being a
proletarian assault on my family, my friends, my upbringing, my education or
my values, be it directly or in the form of swiping derogatory statements
aimed at any part of them. You, Sir, have done it, several times,
consciously or not. The fact that I did not get in your face right there and
then about it, is a result of my manners, and so is the fact, that I did not
drop you as a friend or cease the dialogue altogether.
> Or as you told me up in the mountains, you like to be the alpha male.
Incorrect. I never said I like to be. Slight difference...
Any further comment would have to get as drawn out as it would be personal,
for the sake of truth. This - if at all - doesn't belong here and would have
to get taken to personal eMail, although I am not interested anymore.
> Your alpha could have gotten you in heap big trouble in that camp. Your
> lucky I ferreted you out of there when I did.
I thanked you for doing exactly that by eMail a while ago, since I am
largely unfamiliar with the concept of getting shot for an honest opinion of
mine. :-/ Again - I would have more to say to the reason(s) but I did that
already by eMail, as this doesn't belong here.
> When I interviewed Dan regarding Druidry, I asked him four questions.
[....]
> He chose to answer none of these questions. So that was that. Nothing
> further to be said.
My answer to you (which I sent you once, and which I reminded you of, on a
second occasion, since you forgot that I sent it...) is free to be requested
by anybody at any time. If that answer didn't satisfy you, then so be it.
*smile* Keep it up, Jim.
One motto of the Hippy generation was 'question authority' - remember?
Now don't you confuse that with 'deny authority' either, because this is not
what I'm up to. You're exposing your weaknesses far more proficient, as I
could have ever wanted - yet never did. What would be the use...
regards
Dan
1X2 Willows
[snipped subjective statements about old issues]
Backing off doesn't mean to give an inch, Searles
> As to peace, I think
> it's wonderful. I personally would like to get back to discussing how we
can
> live and act like Druids in this day and age
[snipped subjective statements about new issues]
Setting a new standard, I agree to what's left here.
Dan
1X2 Willows
Never claim I didn't ask you to make no fool out of yourself, Jim
Dan
Searles ODubhain
about my support and practice of recycling Dan. I could care less whether
you've "backed off " or not. I'll continue to agree with you when you're
right, which is what I've always done.
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:yBgh7.2188$yw2.85...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Dana
[..]
Well, hey, Danu, what can I say?
Since your European courtliness and gift of witty repartee have apparently
failed to impress in No. Cal., you know you can always come hang out with my
extended family. They all thought you were quite wonderful and excellent
company. Of course I
know they told you that in person, but I just thought I’d mention it. :-)
> > You are making one huge mistake trying to rile me with your lies. You
let
> a dead
> > dog lie and so will I, if not I can have Gwydion come here and explain
the
> whole
> > situation.
>
> Oh I beg you, not to. I've seen and heard enough...
Is that the guy whose site I found through Witchvox (
www.assemblyofwicca.com ) that ....<ahem>....*sells* the group's manuals
online?
Dana
Searles ODubhain
1. I think Druidry is a search for Truth everywhere and an attempt at all
times to be a steward of harmony within Nature. I have a much longer answer
that I've posted here and elsewhere on the web, but this statement pretty
much sums up my position.
2. I'd have Druidry manifest as a way of perceiving reality and interacting
with it. I'd have these philosophies and approaches to life taught at an
early age within the home and family if at all possible.
3. I'd like to get answers to my inquiries and inspirations for my dreams
out of the Druid way.
4. To make Druid tradition more successful I'm working to more clearly
define its practices and teachings. I'm also attempting to set a good
example for others. In addition to that I'm establishing courses and schools
for teaching about Druid traditions.
There's much more but that's a fairly complete outline of what I'm
attempting to do and be concerning Druidry.
Searles
"Stacey" <Stacey...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:9m3i1...@drn.newsguy.com...
1X2 Willows
Whatever pleases you? :-)
> Since your [....]
Well thank you kindly and many greetings to the whole Clann.
Tell them I miss all of you a lot. (but I think they know that, too... ;-)
> Is that the guy whose site I found through Witchvox (
> www.assemblyofwicca.com ) that ....<ahem>....*sells* the group's manuals
> online?
I suppose it is.
For the sake of my own sanity and unscathed physical health, I'll have
nothing more to say to that.
Dan
1X2 Willows
This one was about 'the rejected student'.
(Gaawd, don't you love this hagglin' stuff?) :-}
As I said - I learned my lesson.
I've backed off in a much greater sense, than just in the sense
of a petty single argument and I wish, after all this time,
you could find the contendedness to do the same.
> I'll continue to agree with you when you're
> right, which is what I've always done.
Are you now the one to judge whether I am right or wrong,
regarding whatever I say or believe? Have you ever thought you were?
Wouldn't 'agree or not' be more like it?
I'd much rather have an opinion from you than approval of sorts.
The first is constructive - the latter ... well ... your choice...
Dan
Searles ODubhain
student nor did I ever seek you as a student either. I has hoped that we
could learn together. In that I was wrong to expect positive results, based
on the eventual outcome.
I'm the sole judge of what I think is the truth for me as I hope you are for
yourself. If we stick to those ideas, I think we should have few problems.
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:sRhh7.2211$dV4.86...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Noinden
> Now there is a fine idea, banish me.
It is a well-known punishment in Gaelic pre (and post) Christian
society!
BUT if you had half the "well rounded" Druidic education you claim you
would know that and know what pain it would cause the offending person
and his or her family!
If you had a well rounded druidic education that is ……Then again IF
youd did you would not be being so rude to your fellows either!
1X2 Willows
I was talking about any given, random, petty argument between the two of us,
which really doesn't belong here - your virgin glass/aluminium recycling
bin, which I started to use, included. You're probably not even aware of
this.Wouldn't that be the truth, then I wouldn't have posted my remark in
the first place. Basta. I'd rather deny myself, than say more, if that
settles it.
> I never rejected you as a
> student nor did I ever seek you as a student either.
That is also the truth as I see it.
Then I have to wonder however, why you responded to this post. You were
surely capable of following the logic of the preceeding conversation, though
nobody talked about 'rejected associates'. You've seen a chance to make a
lingering discovery, so I challenge you to stop hurting and take it.
> I has hoped that we could learn together.
Didn't we? I certainly did. - and we do right now.
If you don't think you did too, then you might either innocently miss out on
a very real part of your own past or then deliberatly deny it. I think you
did without a doubt, when I look at your current posts.
> In that I was wrong to expect positive results, based
> on the eventual outcome.
Some of the eventual outcome was rather sad than negative IMO.
For me, this might come back to the 'unanswerable' concept, which
I am comfortable with. As sad as it was - it was as it was, it was meant and
therefore good. It can be nothing else.
> I'm the sole judge of what I think is the truth for me as I hope you are
> for yourself.
Let me confirm your hope. I am, today, the sole judge of what I think
is the truth for me as I ever was.
> If we stick to those ideas, I think we should have few problems.
I think we would have never had problems in the first place, if it was that
simple. Druidry, in my own ideals, should have nowadays evolved to include
teamwork. The adherence to certain old, local, ingrained ideals should have
made way to minimal solidarity in order to transcend time, borders and
languages a long time ago, in this world we live in. This is not the early
middle ages anymore and there is neither a possibility nor a use in
trying to bring it back.
On the other hand, the ones amongst us, who are not as fortunate as the
Irish in terms of records and guidelines will also have to listen closely to
the respective scholars, in order to forge a unity that has never been in
existence before. Otherwise, the whole concept is as doomed as it was in
Alesia and we're simply repeating history.
I have attempted to do my share and learn a whole foreign language for this
cause, while others - you included - still misspell the name of the tribe of
my ancient forefathers. You (and the readers of this whole group) might not
be aware, but there is a whole other, serious and committed, additional
movement out there which is not even based on the English language and their
number is probably equal to the one in the the U.S. and the Isles combined.
These are Celts, Pagans, next of Kin.
While we waste or time here ripping into each other, they go out and try to
find support, which is only too many times eagerly provided by the ones
who's intent is to capitalize on their needs and nothing else.
I have always fought - and I will keep on fighting - the tunnel vision,
which keeps on dividing the people of our heritage, and that includes Irish
Druid Nationalism as well as any other claim of superiority. Call me a
member of the global Fianna, if you're comfortable with that. As my doctor
once said: You're gonna have to learn to live with it.
Then - and only then - should we have few problems.
regards
Dan
Searles ODubhain
> > The truth and the telling of it is never petty.
>
> I was talking about any given, random, petty argument between the two of
us,
> which really doesn't belong here - your virgin glass/aluminium recycling
> bin, which I started to use, included. You're probably not even aware of
> this.Wouldn't that be the truth, then I wouldn't have posted my remark in
> the first place. Basta. I'd rather deny myself, than say more, if that
> settles it.
>
bin, Deborah and I used plastic bags to haul the recycled materials to the
center. In Texas, it was a blue (for paper) and an orange plastic bin (for
metals, plastic and glass). Before that in Florida it was a separate plastic
trash container. What's your point? You seem to think that you've invented
the world of recycling for us with a white recycling bin. I've been
recycling for at least 25 years and also composting when I had the land to
put in a garden. I can also see from the some parts of your post that you're
not beyond being petty. OTOH there are parts of your post that give me a
sense of optimism that you might be rising above that approach to some
things. That's good because that was what I admired about you in the past.
> > I never rejected you as a
> > student nor did I ever seek you as a student either.
>
> That is also the truth as I see it.
> Then I have to wonder however, why you responded to this post. You were
> surely capable of following the logic of the preceeding conversation,
though
> nobody talked about 'rejected associates'. You've seen a chance to make a
> lingering discovery, so I challenge you to stop hurting and take it.
>
My logic in responding was based on my rejection of you as an associate. By
associate, I mean as person who generally learns from being around another
person, who works with them and who benefits from that relationship or do
you deny learning from our association? The only lingering discovery I see
here is your own lack of perception at times. Who used whose material on
their site? I suppose that the association was more beneficial for you than
for me (though your mileage may subjectively vary). I was doing you a favor
having you in the Summerlands. I didn't need you there and the Summerlands
does as well without you as with you. I thought having an European based
Celtic group would help promote interest in Celtic matters in a place that
is said by most scholars to be the birthplace of Celtic culture. I was
hoping it would be symbiotic for both of us. It turned out to be mainly an
opportunity for you though I'm certain that the people who came to the
Euro-Celts site got a lot of benefit from it. I hope they still do. I'm
glad you learned some things also.
> > I has hoped that we could learn together.
>
> Didn't we? I certainly did. - and we do right now.
> If you don't think you did too, then you might either innocently miss out
on
> a very real part of your own past or then deliberatly deny it. I think you
> did without a doubt, when I look at your current posts.
>
I've learned to not be so trusting of some people.
> > In that I was wrong to expect positive results, based
> > on the eventual outcome.
>
> Some of the eventual outcome was rather sad than negative IMO.
> For me, this might come back to the 'unanswerable' concept, which
> I am comfortable with. As sad as it was - it was as it was, it was meant
and
> therefore good. It can be nothing else.
>
I agree that it was sad in how you left the Summerlands and that your
subsequent behavior was even sadder. I know it saddened and angered me. I
thought you were a friend and it turns out that instead you turned on not
just me in your over-reactions. It's never "meant and therefore good" to
hurt people unnecessarily.
> > I'm the sole judge of what I think is the truth for me as I hope you are
> > for yourself.
>
> Let me confirm your hope. I am, today, the sole judge of what I think
> is the truth for me as I ever was.
>
> > If we stick to those ideas, I think we should have few problems.
>
> I think we would have never had problems in the first place, if it was
that
> simple.
It is that simple. How we act and what we do are also conscious choices for
each of us. May those actions and deeds become based more on objective facts
than subjective assumptions.
> Druidry, in my own ideals, should have nowadays evolved to include
> teamwork. The adherence to certain old, local, ingrained ideals should
have
> made way to minimal solidarity in order to transcend time, borders and
> languages a long time ago, in this world we live in. This is not the early
> middle ages anymore and there is neither a possibility nor a use in
> trying to bring it back.
>
I agree that teamwork is what combines the talents of many to focus on a
project. Every good team has a leader to maintain and direct the team's
efforts and to give the team inspiration. Problems always occur when members
of the team decide to arbitrarily change what's happening in the midst of a
project or they attempt to take control away from the recognized leadership.
Such struggles have been causing problems among people since families began.
It's not new or a recent discovery. It is painful for everyone when such
things occur.
> On the other hand, the ones amongst us, who are not as fortunate as the
> Irish in terms of records and guidelines will also have to listen closely
to
> the respective scholars, in order to forge a unity that has never been in
> existence before. Otherwise, the whole concept is as doomed as it was in
> Alesia and we're simply repeating history.
>
I agree that we should learn from everything in the Celtic past so that we
don't make the same mistakes, no matter which group, country or region is
involved. I'm an admirer and a student of Celtic culture.
> I have attempted to do my share and learn a whole foreign language for
this
> cause, while others - you included - still misspell the name of the tribe
of
> my ancient forefathers. You (and the readers of this whole group) might
not
> be aware, but there is a whole other, serious and committed, additional
> movement out there which is not even based on the English language and
their
> number is probably equal to the one in the the U.S. and the Isles
combined.
>
Well, if I misspelled the name, wouldn't it be better to just put up the
correct spelling? You well know that I'm on other lists besides Irish ones.
I don't know that "their number is equal to the one in the U.S. and the
Isles combined." Where is the quantitative data to substantiate this claim?
IMO the same level of interest in Celtic studies should exist in any part
of the world where there are Celts or descendents of Celts. Many of these
groups draw from the more complete studies that have been done on the
traditions of the Celts of Ireland and Britain. Ironically, it was the
German scholars of the late 19th and early 20th century who greatly helped
establish a scholarly basis for Irish studies. One is not limited by
geography from studying or contributing to Celtic scholarship.
> These are Celts, Pagans, next of Kin.
> While we waste or time here ripping into each other, they go out and try
to
> find support, which is only too many times eagerly provided by the ones
> who's intent is to capitalize on their needs and nothing else.
>
So why are we wasting time ripping then?
> I have always fought - and I will keep on fighting - the tunnel vision,
> which keeps on dividing the people of our heritage, and that includes
Irish
> Druid Nationalism as well as any other claim of superiority. Call me a
> member of the global Fianna, if you're comfortable with that. As my doctor
> once said: You're gonna have to learn to live with it.
>
I don't have tunnel vision on the subject, nor do most of the other people
on this list. I certainly know where my focus is centered and where my
family and cultural interests are to be found. There's so much material to
be found on the subject that I know only one lifetime will be insufficient
to the task. BTW I don't see anyone here claiming that one brand of Druids
is superior to another (besides you). This doesn't mean that people haven't
chosen to follow the traditions of Celtic culture and Druidism that
corresponds most closely with their own family ties and affiliations.
Endorsing one thing is not a rejection of another, though I've seen people
react that way a lot in modern culture. It must be social conditioning that
causes people to act that way.
> Then - and only then - should we have few problems.
>
So long as we quit projecting our subjective opinions on to one another as
if they were some great truth, then we will have few problems. In all
communications between humans there is room for misunderstanding. I think
that checking things out first (instead of project the absolute worst upon
one another) would be a great step towards minimizing the "ripping" I see
attempted around here between us. I don't think that you and I will ever
have a friendly relationship again, but perhaps respect will form again
based on actions and words and not stated intentions? I'm an optimist. I
certainly hope that I can come to respect you even if I will never trust you
as I once did.
With optimism,
Searles
1X2 Willows
> You can say all you like. [....]
Aaaah heck - I asked explicitly about what to do with glass and stuff and I
was told to put it in with all the other trash; thus my remark. I remember
clearly, since this resulted in mental note #1. And now, let's really quit
this one. I'm happy I was wrong then - in accordance with what I said in my
last post.
> My logic in responding [....]
I can largely agree on this paragraph as a view of your side of things. I
could of course respond with some data which would tip the scale again a bit
in my favor but I won't. There's no use. The subject is truth vs. opinion in
druidic matters, right and wrong vs. opinion in druidic matters, attempted
introduction of dogma vs. opinion in druidic matters etc. - e.g.:
> The only lingering discovery I see here is your own lack of perception at
times.
I'll always agree on a difference in perception, instead of a lack thereof.
I, as well as many others, may very well lack a perception as you
experience and define it for yourself.
That's what I'm saying - that's what it is all about.
> I've learned to not be so trusting of some people.
A tough, sad but priceless lesson indeed.
I'm only sorry it was me who was apparently chosen to be the unsuspecting
catalyst.
> I agree that it was sad in how you left the Summerlands and that your
> subsequent behavior was even sadder. I know it saddened and angered me.
Searles, we've got this simple but meaningful proverb, where I come from.
"Nothing results from nothing."
I have tried to the best of my abilities to announce that there is an
existential problem lurking behind 'business as usual', as I had experienced
it, and I was not the only one either. I have tried subtle hints, polite
questions, blunt honesty and finally the whole repertoire up the ladder to
open confrontation, since all else failed. You refused to listen. This
saddened and angered me just as much.
A full year later - maybe even a day more than that - we should be able to
move on to the real work ahead.
> I thought you were a friend and it turns out that instead you turned on
> not just me in your over-reactions. It's never "meant and therefore good"
> to hurt people unnecessarily.
The sign of lacking friendship is not conflict but indifference.
> It is that simple. How we act and what we do are also conscious choices
> for each of us. May those actions and deeds become based more on objective
> facts than subjective assumptions.
If it is implied that one person's objective fact doesn't necessarily have
to be also another person's objective fact, then I'd drink to that. Then
again - after that conversation with somebody else, I'll never be sure what
other accusations will rain down from the skies, when drinking is involved.
Probably child molestation or worse...
Let me just agree in words, then.
> I agree that teamwork is what combines the talents of many to focus on a
> project. Every good team has a leader to maintain and direct the team's
> efforts and to give the team inspiration. Problems always occur when
> members of the team decide to arbitrarily change what's happening in
> the midst of a project or they attempt to take control away from the
> recognized leadership. [....]
Ah! We're indeed getting to the core of the poodle here.
(another one of those 'homegrown' sayings)
Your description sounds to me like one form of teamwork allright, yet one
which leans more towards a business structure or then a combined family
effort (as you further down mentioned) than genuine teamwork by
emancipated parties who share a mutual goal
> I agree that we should learn from everything in the Celtic past so that we
> don't make the same mistakes, no matter which group, country or region is
> involved. I'm an admirer and a student of Celtic culture.
Then you can probably relate, when I think that one of the most common
inaccuracies regarding PanCeltic history and culture are bold statements in
the likes of "The Celts did this and the Celts believed in that, etc." I
don't think the world has ever known another people, who's approach to life
in general - and to spirituality specifically - was so extremely based on
the local land, as theirs was. We only know of the most minimal
commonalities of deities, for example. Spiritual expression in the form of a
homogenous Pantheon simply did not exist, aside from some concepts which
migrated with the people themselves, such as Danu or Lugh. Everything was
perceived local first, and only then set in conjunction with any 'greater
scheme', if at all. This penomenon is still very alive in modern continental
Europe, where two towns 5 miles apart might speak different dialects of the
same language.
Same on the Isles. All I'm working for, is the preservation of those
differences. Any attempt to homogenize all known fragments into this elusive
'One Celtic Wisdom' is simply not blessed by truth IMO.
> [....] put up the correct spelling?
Helvetii - the people - as Latin has its own odd rules about those two 'i's
at the end.
A Latin speaker on the group might have more to say about that than I.
Helvetia - home to La Tène - should be known to the general Celtic scholar.
> I don't know that "their number is equal to the one in the U.S. and the
> Isles combined." Where is the quantitative data to substantiate this
claim?
Exaggeration in order to get attention for a number which might not be as
big as mentioned but still a very substantial one, which is notoriously
overlooked/ignored by the (only) English speaking community.
[snipped good paragraph]
> So why are we wasting time ripping then?
Dunno? A temper? :-)
> BTW I don't see anyone here claiming that one brand of Druids
> is superior to another (besides you).
I'm absolutely claiming that contributors of other opinions than the ones
influenced by the (mostly) Irish scriptures are often being met here on ARD
with opposition, accusations of lacking scholarship or they are met with
disapproval in general - yes - and I know from my other conversations that
I'm not alone in that impression.
> So long as we quit projecting our subjective opinions on to one another as
> if they were some great truth, then we will have few problems.
Version #3 sounds good to me.
[....]
> With optimism,
Trust, like Love and Friendship, is first earned and then needs to be
cultivated continuously in order to sustain its strength. Mutual respect is
one of the key ingredients for all three. My own optimism shall not get in
the way, I suppose.
Slàn is Beannacht
Dan
Searles ODubhain
We've accumulated about as many jars as we can use and have taken some
others to my parents for use in storage. The only other option available
right now for glass is to indeed put it in with the other stuff. Only
plastic, metal and metal cans and paper is allowed to be recycled through
the local waste management system.
There's no need to respond to the rest of the message as it's a matter of
opinions about personal relationships and non a.r.d. topics with the
exception of how other Celtic traditions are treated here. With few
exceptions, I've seen a key interest in material about other Celtic
traditions evidenced here. Many prefer to stay within their own cultural
identity or interest which is what works for them. A few examples of what
you're characterizing as being met "with opposition, accusations of lacking
scholarship or they are met with disapproval in general" would go a long way
to explaining what you are saying. I haven't see opposition to good
scholarship (at least any opposition that had substance to it).
As to Helvetii, I thought I'd spelled it that way. It's not a part of my
spell checker IIRC (because it is set to ignore words with an initial
capital) and I usually use two "ii's" with it (just like Fomorii has two
"ii's"). Try spelling Mississippi sometime to see where the brain gets
confused with double letters.
Though Celts did not have a uniform name for their deities as in a"one and
only one" pantheon, there were enough similarities in *types* of deities for
the Romanized Celts to assign the names of local deities to the Roman
versions. This was usually done by adding the Roman deity name first. Some
examples from Miranda Green's book Mars Albiorix (Vaucluses in Southern
Gaul, Mars Camulos (Britain and Gaul) and Mars Caturix (Geneva);
Jupiter-Beissirissa (Pyrénées), Jupiter-Parthinus (Eastern Dalmatia), and
Jupiter-Poenius (Alps near St. Bernard Pass); Sulis-Minerva (Bath, England),
Apollo-Belenus (Northern Italy, Gaul and Noricum), and Apollo Cunomaglus
(Wiltshire, England).
I certainly don portray the Celtic pantheon as being only one way or the
gods as having only one name. The Dagda has a multitude of name (all of
them a pun or a description of one of his characteristics). Here's part of
what I teach about Celtic deities:
*** Beginning of quoted material from _The Cauldron of Celebration_,
copyright by Searles O'Dubhain) ***
Multifaceted Celtic Deities
Celtic deities are generally multifaceted and varied in their descriptions
from tribe to tribe. Consequently, their relationships to one another are
difficult to map into a clear-cut pantheon (or even a linear family
structure at times). Their relationships to one another are more like the
complex web of an organic structure or being. They are a veritable matrix of
interwoven connections and overlapping functions. In the literature and
tales that have come to us we can identify some of their characteristics and
use these to determine a number of generic deity types. Aside from my
personal relationships with such deities and my study of them in the
literature, I have drawn heavily from the work and wisdom of Alexei
Kondratiev (The Apple Branch and his essay "Basic Celtic Deity Types"
located on the Imbas website at http//:www.imbas.org). I have also
considered and used the correspondences of Celtic deities provided by Tadhg
MacCrossan in his book The Sacred Cauldron. What can be said about the Celts
is that they experienced a personal relationship with deity (through trade,
skill or class). They also had a family relationship to deity (including
ancestors, totems and spiritual progenitors), and a tribal relationship to
deity that served as a connection to the Land as well as Prosperity and Fate
(the marriage of the king to the Goddess of Sovereignty). In addition to
these deity types, there are also those spirits and deities to be found
within the surrounding landscape, rivers, streams and other bodies of water,
as well as the spirit of Nature within plants, animals, weather and other
naturally occurring phenomena.
Pan-Celtic Deity Types
The pan-Celtic deity types have been identified by several authors as:
The Father God - He is the ruler of the family of deities. He is usually
associated with the Sky and with such things as time, weather, life and
death, as well as fertility and procreation. The Dagda fills this role in
Irish Mythology at times, though Bile fills it at others. Math and Beli seem
to be their counterparts in Welsh mythology.
The Mother Goddess - She is the source of life and original power and is
often considered a part of the landscape as well as being closely associated
with the primary river of an area. As the source of life, she is also
closely associated with cattle and nourishment. An Indo-European word for
this concept is *denu. In the ancient Avestan language of Iran, this word
for nourishment is at the root of the word for religion (daena). The goddess
of the rivers and nourishment, of cattle and religion is called Danu, Dana,
Ana and Anu in Irish mythology. She is known as Don in Welsh traditions.
Sometimes she is called Modron in British mythology. As the mother of the
Young Son and a goddess of cattle, she could be known as Bóann of the Brugh
that bears her name.
The Young Son - This deity is a younger version of the Father god. He
represents the rebirth of the year and the cycles of life. Often he is
associated with dreams, love, initiation and transitions. This deity is
called Mac in Oic in Irish myth, Mabon in Welsh and British myth and Maponos
in Gaulish traditions. His birth is usually miraculous and shrouded in
mystery. His discovery of himself and his birthright are parallels to the
stages of increasing awareness that is to be found in both Celtic secular
and esoteric schools.
The Wisdom Goddess - She is the means by which goddess power and energy come
into the world. Often she is more identified with the Father god and less
with her mother. She is the source of knowledge, poetry, history and the
skilled crafts. She is also closely identified with fire in its many forms
as well as healing energies. This is especially true of healings found at
sun wells. Brig is the most often used root name for this goddess among
Celts and especially among Gaels.
The King of the Gods - This deity is often a Warrior God and is served by
the Champion. He is the one who leads the gods into battle and hosts them
within the feasting hall. He is generally married to the Goddess of
Sovereignty or to the Great Queen. He is known for his Magical Sword and
perhaps the loss of a hand in battle. Nuada is the name of this deity in
Irish tradition while he is called Lludd in Welsh mythology. This
warrior-king seems to be a direct Indo-European parallel to Indra in Vedic
tradition. In a sense, Arthur fits this pattern for kingship in British
mythology.
The Great Queen of the Gods - She is usually the source of Magical power and
also able to shape shift into a variety of personas and guises. She is also
a source of wealth in cattle and a source of inspiration for heroes.
Sovereignty resides supreme within her. In Ireland Medb, The Morrigan or
Macha and sometimes Bóann fill this role. As with all Celtic goddesses she
is associated with rivers, streams and lakes, and sometimes with a cup or
well. She is known for the gifts that she bestows.
The Champion God - He is the god of action and skill who manifests the
powers of the Mother goddess and the Father god in warfare as well as
excelling in games, speech and wisdom. Fionn and Ogma fit into this category
for the Irish, as does Cú Chulainn. Lugh sometimes is seen in this role.
The Battle Goddess - These goddesses are often times mentioned in threes. In
Irish mythology, they are sometimes given as Badb, Nemain and Macha. Other
times these are modified to Badb, Nemain and The Morrigan (often identified
with Macha in other roles as well). They represent the passions and fears of
battle as well as the honor and death that are joined there. Sometimes the
events of battle are foreshadowed via omens and auguries, while at other
times these events have a timeframe, will and seemingly a mind of their own.
Classifications that Blur Together
These classifications (and any others we might try to assign) tend to blur
together when one looks closely at Celtic deities. Just as Celts were often
many skilled and capable of assuming a variety of roles within their tribes
so also do their deities give evidence of these same affinities and
capabilities. We should not be surprised to see a god in more than one role
or a goddess being considered to be the source of more than one ability or
power. Celtic gods are often many-skilled and their goddesses are primal
sources. We see this especially in the ways that wells are said to be the
sources of many rivers or in the ways that one river is said to be a part of
other rivers in a continuous stream of river names. Often for gods there is
an Old god and a Young god who compete for prominence (echoing the political
and leadership contention within Celtic tribes). We see such a dual nature
in deities, whether they be gods or goddesses. These dual natures can also
be manifested as dark and light, ugly or beautiful, truthful or deceiving.
The ultimate step in characterizing deities as having a dual nature is to
assign these characteristics to families of deities. Frequently, the deities
of one tribe are the positive faces of the deity classifications while the
deities of another tribe or people are seen as the negative characters of
similar deities. In Ireland and Irish myth, the Tuatha Dé and the Fomorii
often alternate in this presentation and perception of good and bad or
positive and negative.
Deities on the Casting Cloth
As we encounter and discover our relationships with these many deities, we
should correlate them to the parts of our cosmos and casting cloth for
assistance in defining meanings for divination. I usually place the deities
on the diagrams and cloths that serve to emulate the Future, since this is a
part of the world that they have not yet created for our use. Invoking,
praising, praying and communing with these deities will reveal for you what
has been fated to come (though this fate is also yet to be embraced or
accepted). In your relationship to deity, is the opportunity to discover the
future, to influence fate and to take the necessary steps in understanding
(as well as action) that could shape the Future differently.
The Rulers Of Time And Space
In my own tradition and practice, the Wheel of the Year ...Time...Gods....
Sky...Crios of the Heavens, is ruled by sixteen God/desses. Each of the
eight major divisions of time and space are associated with at least a pair
of Deities in this divination system (some Gods can fit just about anywhere,
though they may have traditionally favorite spots). These pairings of
Deities are usually in the form of Mother- son or Husband-Wife. This duality
of God/desses for each division is associated with the "good" and the
"not-good" days of our system. Sometimes "not-good" will actually mean
taking rather than giving. At other times "good" will mean "giving up" or
"quitting" rather than receiving or being victorious. Fate and fortune all
depend on the stars, the Gods, the Fedha and the Airts, as well as our
"Inner Truth." I have detailed some of the characteristics of the Gods below
(further reading is heartily suggested and recommended). Please use these
suggestions to "color" your reading of the "casts," where they are
appropriate (foretelling the future, to break a "log-jam" of indecision, to
"tip" the balance, etc...).
*** End of quoted material from _The Cauldron of Celebration_, copyright by
Searles O'Dubhain) ***
There's no need to respond to the rest of your message as it's a matter of
opinions about personal relationships and non a.r.d. topics with the
exception of how other Celtic traditions are treated here. With few
exceptions, I've seen a key interest in material about other Celtic
traditions evidenced here. Many prefer to stay within their own cultural
identity or interest which is what works for them. A few examples of what
you're characterizing as being met "with opposition, accusations of lacking
scholarship or they are met with disapproval in general" would go a long way
to explaining what you are saying. I haven't see opposition to good
scholarship (at least any opposition that had substance to it).
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:m9Jh7.2467$qB4.99...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> "Searles ODubhain" <odub...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > You can say all you like. [....]
>
> Aaaah heck - I asked explicitly about what to do with glass and stuff and
I
> was told to put it in with all the other trash; thus my remark. I remember
> clearly, since this resulted in mental note #1. And now, let's really quit
> this one. I'm happy I was wrong then - in accordance with what I said in
my
> last post.
>
<snip>
<snip>.
1X2 Willows
There you go. Case solved.
I have to admit that the idea, that a city/area as big as Huntsville would
not even provide such a service, is simply inconceivable to me. That
alone fulfills the criteria of an environmental scandal IMO and somebody
ought to get active real quick. It's also somewhat disappointing to find
out that one of the very communities which is working on concepts for the
future of mankind in space, would throw their own garbage out the back door
to rot - or not...
In contrast:
Some foreign statistics for the year 2000, from:
http://www.buwal.ch/abfall/docu/pdf/e_ueberblick_00.pdf
(in English)
Recovered household and small business waste
- Waste paper 1'137'050 t 5) amounting to 64.2% of consumption
of which 5-7% extraneous materials/impurities (158 kg/cap.)
- Compostable waste 510'000 t 3) composted in centralised facilities
(without household and quarters compost) (71 kg/cap.)
- Glass (bottle glass) 289'094 t 5) amounting to 91.2% of consumption
(incl. broken new glass and 5% extraneous
materials/impurities) (40.1 kg/cap.)
91.2% is a fine number. I'm sure it can get pushed to 98% though,
without making us slaves to the concept or causing a crash of the
whole economy for that reason.
> There's no need to respond to the rest of the message, except [....]
True. Another time, another place maybe.
> I haven't see opposition to good
> scholarship (at least any opposition that had substance to it).
The issue at hand is more about all areas of study, where there exists a
lack of documents or research apart from what we know about Irish culture
and history. Wherever we find such a lack, there can be no complimentary
scholarship and we're entering fragile terrain, as far as proof of any sort
goes.
Even trying to go there seems sometimes unscholarly, and as a result, the
application of what we know about the insular tribes onto other tribes,
subcultures, territories etc. seems tempting, since it could be seen as the
most reasonable way out of the dilemma of no information at all. Most such
conclusions cannot be proven at this time, however, just as any other guess
cannot get refuted; based on the evidence or a lack thereof, respectively.
Sometimes, this puts a real strain on one's personal BS tolerance when it
comes to an evaluation of somebody elses 'celtic' beliefs and practices - I
agree. Still... any information about one or three of roughly a hundred
tribes (especially when they were all neighbours, more or less) embodies a
questionable percentage, when conclusions are meant to be drawn about an
'umbrella' of a mindset, religious unity or any other given aspect of
identity.
Experimental/experiential research has to play a major role in the studies
of all besides insular scholars and such efforts should get honored and
supported by all, based on results and not necessarily approach and the
level of its authenticity by insular standards.
[....]
> Try spelling Mississippi sometime to see where the brain gets
> confused with double letters.
That's okay. There's a whole huge website called 'Ancient Sites' which has
an own Helvetii section with the name permanently spelled Helvetti in dozens
of different places. It's just one of these grinding irritations for me,
because I'm involved and related as much as I am. Picture having to read
constantly about the 'Irrish' all over the place. :-/
> Though Celts did not have a uniform name for their deities as in a"one and
> only one" pantheon, there were enough similarities in *types* of deities
> for the Romanized Celts to assign the names of local deities to the Roman
> versions. This was usually done by adding the Roman deity name first.
After the fact and with the influence of the occupation in effect, yes.
The Roman rule over the Gaulish territories resulted
in a shift of definition of a whole lot of things - including the
assimilation of formerly single local deities into a Roman-like Pantheon
structure. This ought to be looked at in a holistic way, also considering
the changes in language, art, trade and economics in general and last not
least - the introduction of some philosophical doctrines which had to get
adapted by the tribes in order to go on and make the best out of their new
life as slaves. The Roman's advanced knowledge of warfare, engineering etc.
surely also impressed the conquered people to the effect of voluntary change
and adaption; with effects similar to the native cultural changes after the
invasion in the Americas by the Europeans.
The natives tried to adapt this partial superiority by using some of the
invader's concepts - one of which in Europe was the concept of a
anthropomorph Pantheon per se and in secondary step the naming of its
members. Important: This began half a Century BCE and lost importance with
the downfall of Roman Empire ... what?... 150 years later? I'm not sure but
right now I think it was about then. Correction appreciated.
The point is, that before the Romans, there is next to none evidence that
the people worshipped other than local spiritual forces and the fewest of
them were depicted in human form, if depicted at all. I know of one single
wooden statue of an unnamed goddess which the Helvetii left behind in the
homeland on their attempted move to the Atlantic, while they burned
everything else (the only fact which leads the scholars to the assumption
that it was a goddess at all).
> Multifaceted Celtic Deities [....]
While this is an interesting read indeed, this seems to be about your field
of expertise of course, which are the insular tribes. I have not found any
continental evidence yet - especially not pre Roman - which would justify
the inclusion of the beliefs of other tribes in this overview, except for
this one:
> there are also those spirits and deities to be found within the
> surrounding landscape, rivers, streams and other bodies of
> water, as well as the spirit of Nature within plants, animals,
> weather and other naturally occurring phenomena.
I would be very much interested in a whole chapter about these alone.
> Pan-Celtic Deity Types [....]
Here again - 'Pan-Celtic' is a daring term for those types IMO, if we look
at pre Roman times from Western Gaul to the Black Sea. Especially the Dis
Pater image seems to enter the records again only through the Romans. I have
found that the closer one gets to the North Atlantic coast and its tribes,
the more similarities can be found to certain other images in the excerpt
you provided. This seems natural to me (through the proximity to the ones
across the waters) but we have to notice that the opposite is also true. The
further away, the less recorded similarities.
I have also found Belenos being equated with the Dagda for example, although
this name appears hardly or not at all anymore, South and East of the
Carnutes. This strikes me as unusual about a deity which is claimed to be of
such importance, as to deserve the name PanCeltic.
Dan
Lisala
"Searles ODubhain" <odub...@home.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Though Celts did not have a uniform name for their deities as in a"one and
> only one" pantheon, there were enough similarities in *types* of deities for
> the Romanized Celts to assign the names of local deities to the Roman
> versions. This was usually done by adding the Roman deity name first. Some
> examples from Miranda Green's book Mars Albiorix (Vaucluses in Southern
> Gaul, Mars Camulos (Britain and Gaul) and Mars Caturix (Geneva);
> Jupiter-Beissirissa (Pyrénées), Jupiter-Parthinus (Eastern Dalmatia), and
> Jupiter-Poenius (Alps near St. Bernard Pass); Sulis-Minerva (Bath, England),
> Apollo-Belenus (Northern Italy, Gaul and Noricum), and Apollo Cunomaglus
> (Wiltshire, England).
I'm am often a wee bit discomfitted by Searle's use of the declarative
statement. We don't know that the "Celts did not have a uniform name for
their deities as in a"one and only one" pantheon"--but I would suggest
that the desire to even discuss Celtic deities in terms of a pantheon is
proble, matic.
The Romans had a nice, neat pantheon, and thus wanted to absorb the
Celtic deities into it, for obvious reasons. But I am troubled by the
reliance on Green's work. First of all, Green is a Romanist at heart,
one who does not read medieval Celtic languages, or even Gaulish.
Secondly, she is only listing the names that fit her argument. There are
more that do not. Secondly, many of these are not "named," that is,
there is no extant text on on the inscription, or there is only a
fragment of text. I strongly urge anyone interested in this subject to
look for the work of Paula Powers-Coe on this subject, and that of
Joseoh Eska.
I would also like to remind folk about the Irish collocation--"I swear
by the gods my people swear by," and the various similar utterances in
Germanic languges.
> I certainly don portray the Celtic pantheon as being only one way or the
> gods as having only one name. The Dagda has a multitude of name (all of
> them a pun or a description of one of his characteristics). Here's part of
> what I teach about Celtic deities:
>
> *** Beginning of quoted material from _The Cauldron of Celebration_,
> copyright by Searles O'Dubhain) ***
>
> Multifaceted Celtic Deities
>
<snip>
> Pan-Celtic Deity Types
>
> The pan-Celtic deity types have been identified by several authors as:
In the following, I am very much distressed about the assertion of
strongly held and enthusiastically researched opinion as fact. I am also
distressed by the assumption that the Irish materials (which we must
rely on since we have them, and often lack other sources) are always
applicable to other groups. Particularly since those materials were
recorded by scribes eager to systemize their native mythologies into a
those they read their Latin texts, biblical and Roman both--and yes,
they Irish did have access to Greek and Roman mythic material, and
though I am a staunch Nativist, I must be aware that the scribes knew
and valued alien traditions.
The blithe assertions regarding correspnondence, like those of Bile and
Beli are a bit distressing; we truly have very little to go on for
either, certainly not enough to make this kind of statement. Much of the
essay assumes that there is a need to hav a panthoen, and that there's
some internal value in having the general I.E. patterns used as a
framework for Celtic deities. Why must there be a pantheon? Why repeat
the Roman mistake and create an external structure? Sure, there's an
underlying I.E. deep structure but why assume that the various groups of
Celts knew or cared? Why not look at them material on its own terms? Why
systemize it ?
I realize that you have a carefully worked out religious system, and it
is a true accomplishment. But that doesn't mean that we know for a fact
that all Celts at all times used that system. The absence of the usual
warning phrases "I believe," "It seems to me," or "this suggest to me
that" are a little discomfitting because the unwary might see these
personal revelations--often based on extensive research--to be received
truth.
It's just too much to assert about a large, varied, geographically
spread group of people, particularly when it uses data from a thousand
year or larger time span.
Searles ODubhain
their ancestors. The one I use and follow is based on what I've studied,
learned and discovered about my own. I've also used references from others
who have done their own studies. It appears you have more of a problem with
how I've said things than what I've actually said, but even here I guess the
central issue is opinion. You've chosen to focus on only one aspect of what
I said so to me (at least) your own biases are showing.
I have no problems with differing opinions or theories. Facts can usually
sort themselves out objectively. A lot of what we usually base tradition on
is itself tradition and not scientific study. If it were not so, then our
religion would in fact be Science and not Nature or even Draíocht.
I'm distressed that some would take the mystery and the life out of religion
in favor of fact. This is especially ironic since I'm usually the one being
accused of this approach to Celtic religion and tradition.:-) I welcome
your facts. I respect your opinions and I'll support my own approach over
your own. As to the gods and their families, within many traditions they are
treated in just that way: as families. Even science, treats related
concepts and values as families. I don't really see a reason not to relate
to the gods in that way.
Searles
"Lisala" <lis...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:lisala-EA29A7....@news.newsguy.com...
Searles ODubhain
"moist-earth mother," "skillful-multi-talented artisan," "flash of wisdom
and inspiration." "scary hag-like phantom shapeshifter," "young son of
initiation," etc. Wait a minute. We already call them these things when we
use their names in the languages of our respective peoples. :-)
Perhaps the non-use of a god's name in an oath made the oath less binding?
It could also be that the name of a god was so sacred that it could not be
uttered around the uninitiated. I think this practice might still exist
within some traditions and some religions today.
Searles
"Lisala" <lis...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:lisala-EA29A7....@news.newsguy.com...
<snip>
>
> I would also like to remind folk about the Irish collocation--"I swear
> by the gods my people swear by," and the various similar utterances in
> Germanic languges.
<snip>
Kevin Jones
<grin!> Just couldn't resist it! :-)
Kevin
Kevin Jones
> "1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
> news:Fvnh7.2270$2L4.89...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> > > The truth and the telling of it is never petty.
> >
> > I was talking about any given, random, petty argument between the two of
> us,
> > which really doesn't belong here - your virgin glass/aluminium recycling
> > bin, which I started to use, included. You're probably not even aware of
> > this.Wouldn't that be the truth, then I wouldn't have posted my remark in
> > the first place. Basta. I'd rather deny myself, than say more, if that
> > settles it.
> >
> You can say all you like. It doesn't mean that it is true. Before the white
> bin, Deborah and I used plastic bags to haul the recycled materials to the
> center. In Texas, it was a blue (for paper) and an orange plastic bin (for
> metals, plastic and glass). Before that in Florida it was a separate plastic
> trash container. What's your point? You seem to think that you've invented
> the world of recycling for us with a white recycling bin. I've been
> recycling for at least 25 years and also composting when I had the land to
> put in a garden. I can also see from the some parts of your post that you're
> not beyond being petty. OTOH there are parts of your post that give me a
> sense of optimism that you might be rising above that approach to some
> things. That's good because that was what I admired about you in the past.
Er-herm! This is not a terribly dignified discussion.
Kevin
Stacey
> more that do not. Secondly, many of these are not "named," that is,
> there is no extant text on on the inscription, or there is only a
> fragment of text. I strongly urge anyone interested in this subject to
> look for the work of Paula Powers-Coe on this subject, and that of
> Joseoh Eska.
Could you please list the titles of the works by these authors?
Thank you,
Stacey
Daibhaid O'Broder
> I think these questions would be good to put to the newsgroup as a whole.
>
> 1. What do you think Druidry is.
>
> 2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry manifest in these
> times.
>
> 3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way.
>
> 4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful.
>
> I would be interested in reading others' responses. I am assuming you mean
> modern Druid practice in all of them.
>
> Stacey
1. A personal search for knowledge and wisdom of the Celtic Ancestry
of Draoicht with respect to that knowledge which has gone before.
2. Work closer with groups which promote the values and thoughts that
are prevalent and were prevalent to the ancestors.
3. Strive to preserve, protect, and present the truths instead of
foisting falacies in the guise of truth.
4. Work with any group committed to such preservation and working
towards that goal with the concept of group thought and not godhead of
any single member.
Daibh
Daibhaid O'Broder
That's just it, Searles can back up his claims with such a list and
having seen his library I can understand why... :^) However, can
Lisala? Not even compairing apples to oranges with libraries. :^)
Daibh
Wade Baugher
A1. Earth spirituality with a PC attitude.
Q2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry
manifest in these times?
A2. Merlin should rise from the dead, walk out onto the lake, and
tell that submarine sister to shove her soddin' sword.
Q3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way?
A3. Overweight Wiccans in black muu-muus.
Q4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful?
A4. Uhhh... keep doing it.
--
Wade
PS Sorry Stacy, no disrespect intended to the questions.
I just couldn't resist the chance to interject a bit-o-levity.
root
"Wade Baugher" <xremove...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zMui7.144125$EP6.39...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> Q1. What do you think Druidry is?
> A1. Earth spirituality with a PC attitude.
>
> Q2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry
> manifest in these times?
> A2. Merlin should rise from the dead, walk out onto the lake, and
> tell that submarine sister to shove her soddin' sword.
LOL!
>
> Q3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way?
> A3. Overweight Wiccans in black muu-muus.
Mmmmmm.
I must agree :)
>
> Q4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful?
> A4. Uhhh... keep doing it.
Naturally
with jest
root
Searles ODubhain
Thanks for the kind words about my library and the support. I have the
highest respect for Lisa's scholarship though I may have a different opinion
than hers on the details and interpretations of the data. The two
individuals that Lisa mentioned are both members (and sometimes officers) of
CSANA (Celtic Studies Association of North America). I have read only a
synopsis of any of their articles, however, I believe them to be credible
academians. Much of the confusion or contention regarding the positions
taken on the issue of Celtic deities seems to arise from the confusion that
is rampant nowadays about what is Celtic. Earlier views that there was a
more-or-less uniformly defined and identifiable Celtic culture across Europe
are being challenged. I suspect that what will eventually come out of the
process will be that the Celts were like other Indo-European cultures. They
had broad categories of tradition, myth and language, while at the same time
they connected these ideas of deity and cosmology on a personalized, local
basis. In this, they would not be far removed from what Celts and Druids do
today. We know the traditional types of deities and yet we relate to the
rivers, mountain, hills, stones, trees and caves of our local geography on a
personal and ritual basis. There are probably more names for Celtic deities
in today's world than there have ever been before. This is because more and
more people are identifying and aligning themselves with Celtic traditions
and customs.
Lisa most probably has access to university libraries even if she doesn't
have a large personal library (information is information). I think the
differences that we have are not so much the sources as how they are
interpreted and presented. I consider the information to be part of a living
and interactive tradition, while I get the impression that Lisa considers
the topic to be strictly academics first. Verifying information is always a
good practice. Some people verify things through reference work in librarie
s, museums and field work. Other people use these sources but they also
*practice* or try out the techniques, encounter the deities in life, in
dream and in Otherworldly experiences. These are things that I suspect few
academics would attempt (though perhaps some anthropologists do this when
they are studying native cultures).
When I embrace the culture of my ancestors and express that culture in my
own ritual practice and cosmological viewpoints, I'm not intending or
attempting to exclude anyone else from using their own freedom of expression
and choice to embrace different tradition and practices. By all means, I
hope everyone makes their own choices and does their own research to
determine what works best for them and their circumstances. If that means
that we wind up with 33,000,000 Celtic deities and thousands upon thousands
of Celtic/Druidic traditions, them that's what should happen. I have a
great hope that each of these traditions will be able to identify those
things within them that link them to others who would also be Celtic or
Druidic in their own lives. Time will tell as the proof is in the doing of
a thing and not so much in books or in strictly academic discussion.
Searles
"Daibhaid O'Broder" <dao...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:667616a7.01082...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
root
"Stacey" <Stacey...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:9m3i1...@drn.newsguy.com...
> I think these questions would be good to put to the newsgroup as a whole.
>
A sort of mish-mash of philosophy, culture and spirituality that manifests
itself in the Celtic peoples mindset and could possibly be derived from a
much, much earlier tradition when all three were one. When nature, man and
the divine were not conceived of as separate entities. (before higher
abstact thought was developed)
>
> 2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry manifest in
these
> times.
I'm not sure I'd want to make it happen by myself. I would start by
gathering together friends and aquantances, talk, discuss, act - and take it
from there. (a bit like this NG)
> 3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way.
Understanding and truth, and the wisdom to apply it in a positive manner to
the rest of the world. I suspect and sometimes believe I have the potential
for certain 'talents', and to use them in a positive manner requires the
understanding, truth and wisdom to do so - otherwise they may be wasted or
perverted to a negative use. If I am incorrect in my suspicions and beliefs
then at least what I would have learned will be positive and beneficial to
my life, and to those around me.
>
> 4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful.
Always strive to fulfill my potential, every day of my life. As I am a
beginner I do not see everything that awaits me, where my talents will lie
within druidry, but I embrace the path as I walk it.
with respect
root
> Stacey
>
Daibhi
odub...@home.com says...
> Dear Daibhaid,
>
> Thanks for the kind words about my library and the support.
Most welcome... :^)
(snippers in part)
> Much of the confusion or contention regarding the positions
> taken on the issue of Celtic deities seems to arise from the confusion that
> is rampant nowadays about what is Celtic.
Oooohhh the evile "what is Celtic!" thread. :^) *VBWEG* We've seen that
one batted about here and in other groups to some interesting results. I
think that one particular acadametician's attitude with that looks good
with regards to his letter. Specifically the letter that was written at
one time and published many places by Alexei Kondraitiev.
With respect to that issue there are many natives who say that Celticness
is defined by blood, and as many say that it is defined by where you live
now, and then a third portion that define it as the study perspective. I
assert that it could be a combination of all three.
> Earlier views that there was a
> more-or-less uniformly defined and identifiable Celtic culture across Europe
> are being challenged. I suspect that what will eventually come out of the
> process will be that the Celts were like other Indo-European cultures. They
> had broad categories of tradition, myth and language, while at the same time
> they connected these ideas of deity and cosmology on a personalized, local
> basis. In this, they would not be far removed from what Celts and Druids do
> today. We know the traditional types of deities and yet we relate to the
> rivers, mountain, hills, stones, trees and caves of our local geography on a
> personal and ritual basis. There are probably more names for Celtic deities
> in today's world than there have ever been before. This is because more and
> more people are identifying and aligning themselves with Celtic traditions
> and customs.
Exactly and a great many folk have either created God-names or converted,
raised to a dietical level those who were considered just the heroes of
Celtic Mythos. (ex. "The God Cú Chúllain, or the Goddess Maeve")
> Lisa most probably has access to university libraries even if she doesn't
> have a large personal library (information is information). I think the
> differences that we have are not so much the sources as how they are
> interpreted and presented. I consider the information to be part of a living
> and interactive tradition, while I get the impression that Lisa considers
> the topic to be strictly academics first. Verifying information is always a
> good practice. Some people verify things through reference work in librarie
> s, museums and field work. Other people use these sources but they also
> *practice* or try out the techniques, encounter the deities in life, in
> dream and in Otherworldly experiences. These are things that I suspect few
> academics would attempt (though perhaps some anthropologists do this when
> they are studying native cultures).
Agreed in all parts and thank you for an more expounded answer there.
>
> When I embrace the culture of my ancestors and express that culture in my
> own ritual practice and cosmological viewpoints, I'm not intending or
> attempting to exclude anyone else from using their own freedom of expression
> and choice to embrace different tradition and practices. By all means, I
> hope everyone makes their own choices and does their own research to
> determine what works best for them and their circumstances. If that means
> that we wind up with 33,000,000 Celtic deities and thousands upon thousands
> of Celtic/Druidic traditions, them that's what should happen. I have a
> great hope that each of these traditions will be able to identify those
> things within them that link them to others who would also be Celtic or
> Druidic in their own lives. Time will tell as the proof is in the doing of
> a thing and not so much in books or in strictly academic discussion.
There are a great many possibilities and places such could go, I would be
interested in hearing the God-names others have come up with, without
having the nay-sayers heckling those who have the inventiveness to name
that which for Centuries has gone silent.
Daibhaid
Daibhi
says...
Given other conversations in that past and present this is pretty damned
dignified. :^)
daibh
Lisala
"Stacey" <popp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Could you please list the titles of the works by these authors?
Sure, or at least some of them. Eska is extremely prolific; Powers-Coe,
less so, but she's working on a long-term book on Celtic iconography, so
all her energies of late have been spent there. Her dissertation is the
best overview, with a very complete bibliography:
Powers-Coe, Paula. Macha and Conall Cernach: A Study of Two Iconographic
Patterns in Medieval Irish Narratives and Celtic Art. UCLA Dissertation
(1995).
Joseph's dissertation was on the Botorrita inscription; his field is
Continental Celtic epigraphy.
Eska,-Joseph-F.
"Phonology Meets Syntax in Naintre."
(Vienne).Historische-Sprachforschung-Historical-Linguistics, Eichstatt,
Germany (HSHL). 2000, 113:1-2, 199-209
"The Linguistic Milieu of
Oderzo."Historische-Sprachforschung-Historical-Linguistics, Eichstatt,
Germany (HSHL). 1999, 112:1, 122-36.
"On Syntax and Phonology within the Early Irish Verbal Complex."
Diachronica:-International-Journal-for-Historical-Linguistics-Revue-Inter
nationale-pour-la-Linguistique-Historiqu, Amsterdam, Netherlands
(Diachronica). 1996, 13:2, 225-57
"Further to the Treatment of Syllabic Nasals in Final Position in
Proto-Celtic." Historische-Sprachforschung-Historical-Linguistics,
Gottingen, Germany (HSHL). 1996, 109:1, 73-75
"Another Look at Lepontic Uenia." Beitrage-zur-Namenforschung,
Heidelberg, Germany (BN). 1994-1995, 29-30:2, 129-36
and Evans,-D.-Ellis.
"Continental Celtic." 26-63 IN Ball-Martin-J. (ed.); Fife-James (ed.).
The Celtic Languages. London : Routledge, 1993. xi, 682 pp.
"Two Notes on Continental Celtic." Etudes-Celtiques, Paris, France (EC).
1990, 27, 191-95.
"Miscellanea Gallica."
Bulletin-of-the-Board-of-Celtic-Studies-Bwletin-y-Bwrdd-Gwybodau-Celtaidd
, Cardiff, Wales (BBCS). 1992, 39, 16-23. (Gaulish epigraqphy).
"A Propos de Gaulish Sonemetos." Zeitschrift-fur-Celtische-Philologie.
1992, 45, 96-101.
"Further to Andoounnabo." Journal-of-Celtic-Linguistics, Cardiff, Wales
(JCeltL). 1992, 1, 119-25
"The Demonstrative Stem *isto- in Continental Celtic."
Zeitschrift-fur-Celtische-Philologie, Tubingen, Germany (ZCP). 1991, 44,
70-73.
"Syntactic Notes on the Great Inscription of Penalba de Villastar."
Bulletin-of-the-Board-of-Celtic-Studies-Bwletin-y-Bwrdd-Gwybodau-Celtaidd
, Cardiff, Wales (BBCS). 1990, 37, 104-07.
"Interpreting the Gaulish Inscription of Voltino."
Bulletin-of-the-Board-of-Celtic-Studies-Bwletin-y-Bwrdd-Gwybodau-Celtaidd
, Cardiff, Wales (BBCS). 1989, 36, 106-107.
"Another Look at Gaul. Celicno- and Goth. Kelikn.
NOWELE:-North-Western-European-Language-Evolution, Odense, Denmark
(NOWELE). 1990 Sept., 16, 63-72.
"The Verbal Desinence -Tus in the Hispano-Celtic Inscription of
Botorrita." Zeitschrift-fur-Celtische-Philologie, Tubingen, Germany
(ZCP). 1989, 43, 214-222.
"Towards an Interpretation of the Hispano-Celtic Inscription of
Botorrita." Dissertation-Abstracts-International, Ann Arbor, MI (DAI).
1989 May, 49:11, 3347A.
"Notes on a Graffito from La Graufesenque."
Bulletin-of-the-Board-of-Celtic-Studies-Bwletin-y-Bwrdd-Gwybodau-Celtaidd
, Cardiff, Wales (BBCS). 1988, 35, 33-36.
--
Digital medievalist |http://www.digitalmedievalist.com
My opinions are my own. | Who else would want them?
Lisala
dao...@bellsouth.net (Daibhaid O'Broder) wrote:
> That's just it, Searles can back up his claims with such a list and
> having seen his library I can understand why... :^) However, can
> Lisala? Not even compairing apples to oranges with libraries. :^)
Was this deliberately offensive or are you merely inept?
As to my library, Searles may even remember all the titles I've pointed
him to--but my personal library is substantial. I've benefitted from a
professional association with Celtic book publishers like Ford and
Bailie, and Four Courts, as well as academic presses. I tend to favor
digitized manuscripts and high resolution photographs of manuscripts
over the early facsimiles, but such preservation is part of my
occupation. I tend to get copies of recent publications through my
professional connections. I'm a reader at the British Museum, the
University of Wales, Aberystwyth, the Huntington, and Harvard. The only
North American university that approaches Harvard's collection of Celtic
studies publications is UCLA, my alma mater. I am professionaly trained
as a Celticist, with an emphasis on philology and medieval Celtic
literature.
Trust me, I know my bibliography, and have access to pretty much
anything I really need.
All the above, of course, means very little, as Searles would no doubt
tell you, in a spiritual context, which is why I don't deal with
interpretatio religio--I am not spiritually equipped.
I would never impugn Searles or your religious beliefs--why do you feel
necessary to impugn my scholarship? Indeed, had you taken the time to
check, you would have found that I am generally viewed kindly by both
the Pagan and scholarly communities, and have made deliberate efforts to
incorporate practicing Pagan scholars into academic proceedings and
conferences, since as active practioners and ritualists they have much
to teach those of us who are purely academic.
I am very disappointed in you.
C. Leigh Nic Fhionghaile
true that she does not have a religious interest and makes no bones about
that, she's always been very Druid-friendly and willing to provide a
plethora of information in scholarly Celtic matters. I know this from a long
and mutually respectful association/friendship.
TopazOwl
Dana
"Lisala" <lis...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:lisala-
[...]
> The Romans had a nice, neat pantheon, and thus wanted to absorb the
> Celtic deities into it, for obvious reasons. But I am troubled by the
> reliance on Green's work. First of all, Green is a Romanist at heart,
> one who does not read medieval Celtic languages, or even Gaulish.
>
> Secondly, she is only listing the names that fit her argument. There are
> more that do not. Secondly, many of these are not "named," that is,
> there is no extant text on on the inscription, or there is only a
> fragment of text. I strongly urge anyone interested in this subject to
> look for the work of Paula Powers-Coe on this subject, and that of
> Joseoh Eska.
I've seen these criticisms leveled at Green's work elsewhere. Thanks for
the alternative sources!
[...]
the assumption that the Irish materials (which we must
> rely on since we have them, and often lack other sources) are always
> applicable to other groups. Particularly since those materials were
> recorded by scribes eager to systemize their native mythologies into a
> those they read their Latin texts, biblical and Roman both--and yes,
> they Irish did have access to Greek and Roman mythic material, and
> though I am a staunch Nativist, I must be aware that the scribes knew
> and valued alien traditions.
This tendency (it doesn't just happen here!) is something that's annoyed me
for quite some time now. So many people seem to hit the Irish material and
have no desire to research further, apparently assuming that's all anyone
really needs. It seems to me that actively searching for the differences
and similarities in tribal customs/beliefs/spiritualities for the valuable
insights such comparisons might generate would be more productive than
taking a one-size-fits-all approach and marginalizing (or dismissing)
everybody else.
>Why must there be a pantheon? Why repeat
> the Roman mistake and create an external structure? Sure, there's an
> underlying I.E. deep structure but why assume that the various groups of
> Celts knew or cared? Why not look at them material on its own terms? Why
> systemize it ?
I very much agree with you, and have asked these questions myself. My own
reading has led me to the conclusion that Celtic spirituality started to
lose its "paganism" (i.e., foundation in Land-based spirituality) not with
the advent of Christianity, as I'd previously assumed, but through
increasing contact with Roman culture.
Lisala, thank you for raising these very valid points.
Dana
Daibhi
> In article <667616a7.01082...@posting.google.com>,
> dao...@bellsouth.net (Daibhaid O'Broder) wrote:
>
> > That's just it, Searles can back up his claims with such a list and
> > having seen his library I can understand why... :^) However, can
> > Lisala? Not even compairing apples to oranges with libraries. :^)
>
> Was this deliberately offensive or are you merely inept?
Ok, before you get so wound up and you did, not the emoticons. That was
all TIC. Joke, humorous, something that is sadly lacking at this NG from
time to time.
Daibh
1X2 Willows
news:MPG.15f5b7ea9...@news.atl.bellsouth.net...
- reminds me of the gang of keyboard players with whom I lived in Hollywood
decades ago (students of KIT on the boulevard), who - in times of musical
disagreement - resorted to the comparison of the size of their organs.
:^}
Dan
(who had nothing better to do than answer your appeal and provide some
humour, since my own post still remains unchallenged. Aaaaw, life's not
fair! :-)
Searles ODubhain
understandings), please check the Celtic-L archives where Raimund Karl lists
and details what is known about Celtic deities as well as their
commonalities and differences:
http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a8700035/celtreli.html#CELTIC%20GODS
Searles
"Stacey" <popp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_bfi7.5747$434.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
1X2 Willows
>
[....]
> But I'll let the thread die, and move on
[....]
Hello Lisa
Now, after all that distress, I'd like to voice my own, about your intention
to let the thread die. May I suggest a return to the deeper end of the
original question instead?
Why - on the bases of which works of scholarship - is your opinion about
this lacking unity of the celtic tribes the same as mine? I have to admit
that I have my own reasons to come to this conclusion but they could not
possibly be educated as the ones you could provide, maybe...
- or is it not that simple that it could get explained with a few references
because it might rather be the sum of your knowledge on this subject in a
'crossover' sense?
Blessings
Dan
Daibhi
lis...@newsguy.com says...
> In article <MPG.15f5b7ea9...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>,
> Daibhi <dao...@nospambs.net> wrote:
>
> > > dao...@bellsouth.net (Daibhaid O'Broder) wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's just it, Searles can back up his claims with such a list and
> > > > having seen his library I can understand why... :^) However, can
> > > > Lisala? Not even compairing apples to oranges with libraries. :^)
> > >
> > > Was this deliberately offensive or are you merely inept?
> 1. That's just it, Searles can back up his claims with such a list and
> having seen his library I can understand why... :^)
>
> So where's the irony here? Where's the humor? Are you intending to imply
> that _Searles_ can't back up his claims? No, I thought not. So in fact
> you were using the emoticon inappropriately; there was no humor or jest
> in your comment. You were deliberately suggesting that I couldn't
> provide a bibliographic reference (you will note that I did) and
> implying that I was consequently fabricating my information---or
> possibly, even worse. Neither implication is humourous or well meant.
Ok, you want a list here's a list...
First, there has been a great deal of biting, scratching, and nailing
here on this thread. I was of the initial opinion that yours was a
contribution. I was mistaken, I apologize.
> Then there's your second statement:
>
> 2 However, can Lisala? Not even compairing apples to oranges with
> libraries. :^)
>
> Again, the implication that I lacked scholarly support for my reference,
> followed by a critique of my library--implying that it was so lacking in
> materials (and hence I was also lacking) compared to Searle's that it
> was not a logical comparison, not even an apple to his orange.
Read statement #1.
daibhaid
Daibhi
> But I'll let the thread die, and move on, and hope that you will at
> least think twice before treating someone else as rudely.
>
And I do / did / shall extend my hands in apology, however I would say
that my ineptness, discourtesy, did provide for some excellent writing
yourself Lisala. Thank you.
Daibhaid
DaRC
Although I'm just a neo Neo-druid (or one whose path is wending that
way) these would be my answers. I can now read the other's answers (I
didn;t want to crib ;-) Cheers, Dave.
> I think these questions would be good to put to the newsgroup as a whole.
> 1. What do you think Druidry is.
>
Learning, Analysis & Application. Where learning is understanding
the Celtic tribespeople - their culture, values and history. Analysis
is taking the principles from the learning and understanding what is
applicable to our modern world. Application is actually applying the
theory from the analysis in the real world.
> 2. If you could make it happen, how would you have Druidry manifest in these
> times.
>
Each individual would take time & energy to appreciate & protect
Nature / their environment / the natural life cycles. Within this I
would extend the meaning of individual to include corporate entities.
> 3. What would you like to get out of the Druid way.
>
A beneficial structure to my physical, emotional & spiritual life.
> 4. What would you do to make any Druid tradition successful.
>
Through my behaviour & actions to encourage others to follow the Druid
way.
1X2 Willows
news:OSWi7.127610$k7.31...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
> For a detailed discussion of Celtic gods (that is similar to my own
> understandings), please check the Celtic-L archives where Raimund Karl
> lists and details what is known about Celtic deities as well as their
> commonalities and differences:
Here's (in part) what he has to say to that himself:
[translated & quoted with permission]
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[....]
I have written this about 7 or 8 years ago, mostly based on Garrett Olmsteds
"The Gods of the Celts and the Indoeuropeans", published in the
Archaeolingua sometimes around 1992/1993. Although I am not really of
Olmsteds own opinion, I consider his approach more promising than anything
else I've ever read about Celtic religion, in that he works by the way of
functions/roles of deities instead of trying to explain single
gods/goddesses.
[....]
I have just sent a commentary to Celtic Well, where I say something to the
subject 'uniform divinity':
**********************
>Christopher Gwinn schrieb:
>>
>> >The question
>> >that are most discussing is "Who were the highest God of People of
>> >Ireland"?
>>
>> That question probably cannot be answered today - we have very little
>> information on how the pagan Irish organized their pantheon. We do know
>> that ><snipped> likely have been the creator god - but we do not know
>> who held this function in any Celtic pantheon).
>
> And I'm not even pretty sure if the question isn't a wrong question in
> he first place. Actually, is it really necessary to assume that there
> was anything like a "highest god"? Apart from that such a "clear"
> hierarchy within the pantheon wasn't even in effect in the Roman or
> Greek pantheon, with "local" deities (i.e. the deities of local temples)
> being held in greater esteem in their specific region than the
> "official" "higher" gods (which most probably were only put within an
> "official hierarchy" after Greek/Roman culture became more or less
> unified). Now, if we don't expect a mostly unified Celtic culture, then
> we shouldn't expect a single structure of "the one Celtic pantheon", in
> fact, we should not expect something like "the one Celtic pantheon" at
> all.
> If we look at Ireland, it was never really politically unified in
> pre-Norman times (and one could discuss if it was ever after the Norman
> conquest), and thus why is it that we should assume that Ireland was
> completely unified in religious questions? That there was something like
> "the one Irish pantheon" at all?
> Now, that monks who, several hundred years after the panthei were
> replaced by Christianity, syncretised stories which were partly of pagan
> origin (but had at least lingered on for several hundred years in a
> mostly christian environment) with their own christian beliefs,
> classical and magical tale motives and common Medieval superstitions,
> would not only not care for an "official hierarchy" in a prehistoric
> pagan pantheon, but most probably not know about this anymore (if they
> wouldn't syncretise several such panthei with their differing
> hierarchies in the first place).
> As such, is it at all reasonable to assume that there was a "highest"
> Irish god at all, and even if, that we will even be able to reconstruct
> that?
********************
Well, let's now look at the quoted material.
(from _The Cauldron of Celebration_, copyright by Searles O'Dubhain)
Everything's so half/half. The sources which he names are an indicator
anyway of how most of it is to be received. Kondratiev / IMBAS [....] is
rather a neopagan source than a scientific one. Nice, beautiful, even
correct in some parts, but in other parts not correct anyhow. I've never
heard of a Tadhg MacCrossan and his book "The Sacred Cauldron" in my life
but it's probably even more from an unscientific direction than Kondratiev.
The consequence is, that a lot of correct, incorrect and halfcorrect things
are being blended in these quotes from _The Cauldron of Celebration_. So
are, for example, the divine roles relatively valid but their descriptions
are only very partially so. [....]
> Dan wrote:
> > Your (quick) opinion would be of greatest interest to me.
> > If you were really of the opinion, that the above summary would
> > also have been valid for continental Europe before Roman influence,
> > then I'd be more inclined to integrate this knowledge into
> > my own studies [....]
No, I would not integrate it into your studies at this point, if I were you.
It would make more sense to read my synopsis (it is on the Internet in
English) and this is a short one for laymen. Even better would be, of
course, to read Olmsted in the first place. [....] The approach is good in
my opinion and one could do something reasonable with it (Olmsted has not
done so, IMO) [....] But as I said, celtic religion is not really a field of
interest of mine and for that reason have I not burdened myself with further
inquiries.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[end of quote]
Dan
Searles ODubhain
which opinions or statements belong to Raimund or Christopher. I've
addressed the deities by function and generality as well as be specific
personification for my own way from Irish tradition. In doing this, I don't
think I've gone too far field from what even Lisa, Christopher, Raimund or
Alexei would also do. We even use this approach in higher mathematics. One
can solve for the particular solution to a theorized equation and then
derive the general solution from how those solution interact with the
equations themselves. I expect that anyone attempting to work with the
deities in a cognitive manner would also want to approach them in some form
of systematic as well as charismatic manner.
The material that was provided from _The Cauldron of Celebration_ is part of
a much greater body of work concerning the use of Ogham in divination. As
such, it has to address deities in a specific and characterized manner
(since divination *is* divine knowledge by practical definition). This means
that it had to be based on both a study of the traditions and personal
experience as well as application (which it most certainly is). Again, I'd
like to hear where things could be improved, not just opinions but some real
discussion. Rather than interjecting opinions and characterizing "neo-Pagan"
as an adjective that seems to be identical with *unscholarly*, why don't you
show where the information is (as you've included in you reply) is "Nice,
beautiful, even correct in some parts, but in other parts not correct
anyhow."
Addressing the specifics of the material as to where it is wrong or
considered to be correct, would be much more beneficial to everyone than
just stating an opinion. Everyone has opinions. Providing information,
facts and well considered theories would go a long way toward making a point
where frankly opinion is like smoke that blows away in the first wind. The
expectation that the Irish deities can be seen as a pantheon comes from
their being grouped in general families of gods and not-gods. In this, they
are very like the gods and deities of the Vedic and Hindu religions. There
are general god types and supreme gods in their trinities as well as
groupings for the three parts of the world in both traditions. A Hindu sage
was once asked how many gods there were (as related in _The Myths and Gods
of India_ by Alain Daniélou). To this he replied:
"The gods are as many as are mentioned in the sacred books. They number
three hundred and three, and three thousand and three. The gods are six, the
gods are three, the gods are two, the gods are one and a half, and the gods
are one. ... There are just thirty three gods:"
"The eight spheres-of-existence, the eleven divinities-of-life, the twelve
sovereign-principles, make thirty one. The ruler of heaven (Indra) and the
lord-of-progeny (Praja/pati) complete the thirty three."
The spheres of existence are named as:
"Fire, Earth, Wind, Atmosphere, Sun, Sky, Moon and Stars.These are called
'dwellings' (Vasus, Vasu can mean both "dwelling" and "dweller."), for the
world dwells in them and they dwell in the world."
"Which are the divinities of life?"
"The ten forms of the life energy found in a living being and the mind as
the eleventh.
"When they go out of this mortal body they make us lament, thus they are
called the 'causes of tears' ('Rudras)."
"Which are the sovereign principles?"
"Verily, the twelve months of the year. They move along this whole world,
hence they are called 'leaders' (A/dityas)."
"Who are this lord of heaven and this lord of progeny?"
"Thunder, verily, is the lord-of-heaven (Indra); the sacrifice is the
lord-of-progeny (Praja/pati)."
"What is thunder?"
"The thunderbolt."
"What is sacrifice?"
"The sacrificial animals."
"Who, then, are the six gods?"
"Fire and Earth, Wind and Space (anatariska), Sun and Sky. These are the
six, for the whole world is within these six."
"Who are the three gods?"
"Verily, they are the three worlds, for in them dwell all the gods."
"Who are the two gods?"
"Food (anna) and Breath (pra/na)."
"Which is the one and a half?"
"The Wind (the subtle world) that purifies."
Then someone asked: "Since the purifier need only be one, why should he be
one and a half?"
"Because the world develops within him, he is one and a half."
"Who is the one God?"
"The Life Breath," said he, "which they call the Immensity (brahman)."
(Brhad-a/ranyaka Upanisad 3.9.1-9. [114])
In Volume 1, "The Cauldron of Warming" and in Volume 3, "The Cauldron of
Celebration" from my book series, I outline and describe the qualities of
being (i.e. spheres-of-existence) as being the Dúile.
The nine qualities of being are:
"Stone, Earth, Nature, Sea, Wind, Moon , Sun, Stars and Sky"
There are 16 deities that surround the wheel of my own sacred year (based on
the major festivals and their roles to our Irish ancestors as can best be
determined from a study of the traditions:
The Morrigan, Crom Dub - Donn, Bóann, Mac ind Oic, Brighid, Bress,
Scathach,Ogma,
Bile, Áine,Nuada, Eriu, Lugh, Tailtiu, The Cailleach, Manánnan
"Who are the deities that never change?"
I further define the roles of 27 deities, ancestors and not-gods in a
relationship known as the Houses of the Moon (some of these deities are also
included in the wheel of the year, reducing the number added to the total
being presented to be only 19 ). I've grouped them in nines as they occur in
the sequences of the Houses. These groupings are based on what I understand
about Ogham meanings/associations and the particular tales associated with
each house that is represented:
Dian Cécht , Donn, Goll, Bile, Bóann, Rúadh, Ogma, Brighid, The Fomorii,
Bres, Eber, Eremon, Nuada, Eochaidh mac Eirc, Lugh, Balor, Midir, Indech,
Nét, Morann, Amergin, Domnu, Elatha, Tethra, Cú Chulainn, The Two Finns, The
Dagda
"Which are the divinities of life?"
I call these the Dúile of the self. They are nine:
Bones, Flesh, Skin, Blood, Breathe, Mind, Face, Brain, Head (with the Soul
as the 10th).
"Which are the sovereign principles?"
These are the seasons of the years which are eight, four and two. They are
eight when we consider the cycles of the Sky and the Land. They are four
when we consider only the festivals, They are two when we look at the
characteristics of the Sun.
"What is thunder?"
The Sword of Light that came from Findias and the Flaming Spear that was
gifted from Gorias.
"What is sacrifice?"
It is the offering of the bounty of the Land and the skill of the hand.
"Who, then, are the six gods?"
Stars and Earth, Moon and Sea, Sun and Sky. These are the six, for the most
sacred oaths are sworn on these sureties.
"Who are the three gods?"
They are the three worlds of Land, Sea and Sky, for in them dwell all the
gods, not-gods and people.
"Who are the two gods?"
"Order and Chaos. For from one comes the other."
"Which is the one and a half?"
The Wind that comes from all directions which is the fire that purifies.
"Why is the Wind a fire that purifies?"
"Because the wind is the breath of life and also the flames of sacrifice.
They are both the Daughter of Fire who is known as the three Brighids of the
double countenance. Half of three is what makes them one and a half. They
are a choice."
"Who are the Two Gods?"
In Irish traditions, the king of the gods is Nuada/Lugh (he is the provider
and the sustainer of truth) and the god of all powers is The Dagda (The Huge
Father; he is the Immensity).
The total of the gods is now 46, or 460, if you count all the gods and
not-gods. If you include all of the ancestors and nature spirits as well,
then the gods number in the millions (or billions).
Who is the One Deity?
I call her the River of Heaven. She is the Mother of the Gods and beyond
even the Immensity himself. She is Danu.
Thanks for your questions and your responses. They've made me quantify
something that has been rolling around inside of me for years now. I think
I'll expand on this a bit and include it in "The Cauldron of Celebration"
text. As an example of and additional *something* based on facts and
scholarly information, let me also offer the following. The Dagda among the
Irish is known as the God of Druids. He was also the one who played in the
seasons on his harp. In addition to that, his staff had the power of life
and death. He was known as the Father of the Gods as well as the
"All-Father." He is the possessor of the Cauldron that satisfies every
need. He builds the sidhe mounds and allocates each to a specific deity. His
name means the "Good God" in one of its forms, while he has a multitude of
names that seem to cover all of creation in every form. Most of his many
wives are queens and princesses of the gods (or not-gods). I'd say that he
is the chief god of the Irish pantheon based on these facts alone, though I
think I can find other scholars who would support this opinion with their
own ideas and researches. IMO, every one of these statements that I've
listed point toward him being a chief god and a creator god. Each of them
has at least one (if not more) references and cites to back it up.
Where are yours?
Searles
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:Tehj7.3369$Q85.134...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Dana
> It's difficult to tell from your message which parts are your opinion and
> which opinions or statements belong to Raimund or Christopher
Um…….the part of the post separated by ////////////////////////////////////
is pretty clearly marked as quoted correspondence from Herr (Dr.?) Karl.
Yeah, it’s a tad bit confusing that he inserts his reply to Chris Gwinn on
CelticWell preceded by a bit of Chris’s original post, but as he’d only
posted it the day before and it was highly relevant to the question, I don’t
blame him for including it. I’m following that thread there myself.
Dana
Kevin Jones
> Earlier views that there was a
> more-or-less uniformly defined and identifiable Celtic culture across Europe
> are being challenged. I suspect that what will eventually come out of the
> process will be that the Celts were like other Indo-European cultures. They
> had broad categories of tradition, myth and language, while at the same time
> they connected these ideas of deity and cosmology on a personalized, local
> basis.
Sounds about like the eventual outcome - for now there's a bit of an academic
punch-up between nativists and the antinativists in the Celtic lit field, and
Celtosceptics vs the rest in archaeology. Personally I reckon people are being
far too simplistic an very silly - but that's my take on it! :-) I may rattle a
few cages myself before I'm finished. :-)
Kevin
Kevin Jones
> In article <_bfi7.5747$434.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Stacey" <popp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Could you please list the titles of the works by these authors?
>
> Sure, or at least some of them. Eska is extremely prolific; Powers-Coe,
> less so, but she's working on a long-term book on Celtic iconography, so
> all her energies of late have been spent there. Her dissertation is the
> best overview, with a very complete bibliography:
Oh whoopee! More lovely references to dive into! <look of glee!> :-)
Kevin
Searles ODubhain
material he's posted to the Celtic-L archives as actually being from a book
by Garrett Olmsted. It also seems to me that Karl is saying later on in the
message that he doesn't really care much about Celtic religion one way or
the other.
"I have written this about 7 or 8 years ago, mostly based on Garrett
Olmsteds
'The Gods of the Celts and the Indoeuropeans', published in the
Archaeolingua sometimes around 1992/1993. Although I am not really of
Olmsteds own opinion, "
As to the other part of the message, I saw only generalities and no specific
information to explain what was (I suppose) Dan's opinion. I don't think it
was Christopher Gwinn's. It doesn't look like his style or level of accuracy
and completeness.
Searles
"Dana" <dh...@sdge.com> wrote in message
news:lUtj7.1$tP2....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
>
<snip>
> Um...the part of the post separated by
1X2 Willows
> It's difficult to tell from your message which parts are your opinion and
> which opinions or statements belong to Raimund or Christopher.
I regret that my chosen format to put all quoted material between
two lines of /////////////////////////////////////////// was apparently
not clear enough. Only the very first sentence and the signature
are my own (except for the statement which RAY quoted back,
[Dan wrote:] and then answered). I'm not shouting or anything but
merely call him RAY according to his own choice of signature.
> I've addressed the deities by function and generality as well as be
> specific personification for my own way from Irish tradition. In doing
> this, I don't hink I've gone too far field from what even Lisa,
> Christopher, Raimund or Alexei would also do.
The Irish tradition is not necessarily a PanCeltic tradition and by doing
this, you've obviously gone way too far field from what at least RAY would
do - according to his own words.
This was my original motivation to begin with - to double check with him,
whether he would agree with your presented overview or not; especially
since your wording implied somehow, that the two of you have a "similar
understanding". This is apparently not so, however. The critique that "a lot
of correct, incorrect and halfcorrect things are being blended in these
quotes from _The Cauldron of Celebration_" is the one of RAY and did not
come from me. Your newly implied support from Lisa, Christopher and Alexei
would have to be verified respectively, of course. Maybe it's just me, but I
think Lisa has already made her point quite satisfactorily as well as
politely.
Then again - here's exactly where common courtesy, respect for each other's
studies and every imaginable form of group politics come into play, so I'm
quite convinced that part of your ideas would find some kind of support
everywhere one can ask, although the core question: "Can we look to the
Irish writings as sort of a template for the wisdom, the tradition and the
spiritual beliefs of the Celts in general?" would still remain in dispute
as ever.
> We even use this approach in higher mathematics.
[....]
Again - maybe it's just me, but the mere analogy gives me instant shivers of
discomfort. The subject is approached as if there were a formula to be
found, which will explain all mysteries of the Universe and life in it, once
and for all. Also - it implies once more a superiority of the human being
over the rest of the All, or it emphazises at least that which is
exclusively human in the process - consciously or not. I'm really not
comfortable with that kind of a mindset.
> I'd like to hear where things could be improved, not just opinions
> but some real discussion. [....]
Well, that could get taken in several ways...
Either you're only interested in a conversation by your own terms or then
you seem to oppose my viewpoint, that any exchange of opinions qualifies as
a discussion - even a real one. I thought we agreed on our opinions not
being some great truth.
> Addressing the specifics of the material as to where it is wrong or
> considered to be correct, would be much more beneficial to everyone than
> just stating an opinion.
I'm sure the originator of the comment would have more to say in detail but
as I am only the messenger, I ask not to get shot. You might want to ask on
the Celtic Well list instead.
[snipped Vedic/Celtic associations]
> Thanks for your questions and your responses. [....]
Very welcome.
> The Dagda among the Irish is known as the God of Druids.
> [....]
> I'd say that he is the chief god of the Irish pantheon based
> on these facts alone, though I think I can find other scholars who
> would support this opinion with their own ideas and researches.
> IMO, every one of these statements that I've listed point toward
> him being a chief god and a creator god. Each of them
> has at least one (if not more) references and cites to back it up.
I remember you saying that before.
Indeed; may I ask for a reference or two for especially this first
statement? Besides - I never meant to argue about Irish deities at all. That
is your field of interest and study and there's certainly nothing wrong with
that. It's when claims of 'PanCeltic' qualities and characteristics are
being made - based solely on Irish material and not only in terms of deities
either - that I get cautious and rather skeptic.
> Where are yours?
As far as known anthropomorph Continental deities are concerned,
whose names have been found mainly on Greco-Roman influenced media:
http://www.euro-celts.com/gods.html
All others are still where they've always been, so they can still be found
and asked in 'person' or rather 'in their untranslated form', although I
doubt that they make a better reference for spiritual claims in the academic
world, than everything else which could get cited, no? After all - they
could care less for human quibble and validation... ;-)
Dan
1X2 Willows
news:3B8D9406...@compuserve.com...
> Sounds about like the eventual outcome - for now there's a bit of an
> academic punch-up between nativists and the antinativists in the
> Celtic lit field, and Celtosceptics vs the rest in archaeology.
> Personally I reckon people are being far too simplistic an very
> silly - but that's my take on it! :-) I may rattle a few cages myself
> before I'm finished. :-)
>
> Kevin
>
Well then I'm surely curious in what direction the rattle would go, even if
it was my own cage... I'd feel honored, at worst. :-)
curious
Dan
Searles ODubhain
deity types to the specifically Irish case. I hope you don't think that I've
said that Karl's general Celtic deity types are to be discarded in favor of
those of a single tribe or people. Apples and apples.
I've never said that the Irish way should be used for a general Celtic
approach. I've always suggested that the Irish material might help a
general Celtic student look in the right directions to find their own
answers. Those who seek to follow Irish Celtic ways are very lucky to have
such a wealth of material to study. This doesn't mean I think they should
ignore other Celtic ways. I certainly don't ignore any valid Celtic
material, though I follow the Irish way as faithfully as is possible.
To cite some examples regarding the Dagda as the Irish god of Druids and
also as the chief Irish god, here's a post I made in the Summerlands Druid
section some 3 years ago:
Who is the god of Druids? To me this question can be answered by
understanding what was considered holy by Druids. The sacred knowledge of
the Druids held truth, skill and honor to be the triad most highly respected
and taught among the Celts. The deity that most closely represents these
three ideals to me is An Dagda, the Good God, who was good at everything he
did.
In the Irish tales there are two mentions of the God of the Druids (by
name). The first mention is cited in the article, "The First Battle of
Moytura," edited by J. Fraser in Ériu 8, p.16 and the second mention is in
the article, "How the Dagda Got His Magic Staff," in "Medieval Studies in
Memory of Gertrude Schoepperle Loomis," by Osborn, Bergin, Geneva, 1927,
page 402. The Dagda is called, "dagdia druidechta Túath Dé Danann." This
is the God of Druids that Mogh Roith calls upon in his incantations as
well: An Dagda, God of Druids.
Here's some more information that supports the idea of The Dagda being the
God of Druids:
On page 121 of _Cath Maige Tuired_, translation and notes by Elizabeth
Gray, he is characterized as," Master of druidic arts.."
On page 64, of _Celtic Mythology_ by Proinsius Mac Cana:
"..credited with much wisdom, and another of his names or titles describes
him as Ruadh Rofhessa, 'The Mighty One of Great Knowledge'. It is fitting
therefore that he should also be qualified, as he is on several occasions,
as a god of druidism."
On page 104 of _The Metrical Dindshenchas, Vol. IV_, translation and notes
by Edward Gwynn, it was said of The Dagda:
"Cia rí buí for Érinn uile glé-binn glaine.
acht in Dagdae druinne? ni chluine nach n-amra n-aile."
"Who was king over all Erinn, sweet-sounding radiant?
Who but the skillful Dagda? You hear of none other so famous."
That the Druids had a god is shown in _Forbhais Droma Damhgháire_ as
translated by Seán Ó Duinn, where the great Druid Mogh Roith says:
"Dia na ndraoithe, mo dhía thar gach dia, dia an tseandrua seo."
"God of druids, my god above every god, he is god of the ancient druids."
From Ériu VII, 221.5:
"tri druid Dagda"
On page 86 under the heading "druid," in _Dictionary of Celtic Myth and
Mythology_, by Miranda Green (sources quoted are: O'Fáolain, 1954; Bray
1987, 209-215; Watson 1981, 165-80; Cormier 1976-8, 303-15; Green 1986,
26-8; Pigott 1968; Le Roux & Guyonvarc'h 1974, 96-112; Nash 1976, 124;
Jackson 1964; Cunliffe 1979, 106-10):
"The Daghda was credited with being a god of druidism, which may refer to
magic or prophecy."
In _The Sacred Isle, Belief and Religion in Pre-Christian Ireland_, pp.
108-109, Dáithí Ó hÓgáin says:
"Since, according to Caesar, the father god was especially the patron
divinity of the Gaulish Druids, one is inclined to look for elements within
the portrayal of the Dagda which would indicate a Druidic rational..."
"The portrayals of this major deity have been correlated in a manner which
is very adept and consistent. He is solar, provident and life producing; he
regulates time and agriculture; he exists in the world of the living by day
but in that of the dead by night, yet unites these two worlds. This latter
he does according to a pattern which gives preeminence to the more
mysterious of the two, the realm of the dead. Such a pattern would, of
course, have been to the advantage of the special caste who involve
themselves in mantic practices, such as the Druids did. Most pertinent of
all to the issue of Druidic influence is the Dagda's special designation
Aedh Ruadh Ró-fhessa ('red fire of all knowledge') which focuses the special
area of interest of a learned caste."
"As if to illustrate the Celtic belief that the night comes before the day,
the Dagda as divine ancestor, had preeminence in the Irish pantheon." (at
this point Ó hÓgáin goes on to provide examples of the Dagda regulating the
seasons, controlling the Sun, possessing the chief brugh of Ireland and
generally being the chief god of the Irish pantheon).
It is clear to me from these quotations that The Dagda was the chief god of
the Irish Celts and that he was also the God of Druids.
Searles O'Dubhain
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:8qCj7.130$Uv1.26...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
<snip>
>
> The Irish tradition is not necessarily a PanCeltic tradition and by doing
> this, you've obviously gone way too far field from what at least RAY would
> do - according to his own words.
>
<snip>
> everywhere one can ask, although the core question: "Can we look to the
> Irish writings as sort of a template for the wisdom, the tradition and the
> spiritual beliefs of the Celts in general?" would still remain in dispute
> as ever.
<snip>
Kevin Jones
Oh, nothing to do with ard. Just a few things going on IRL - academic debates
and so on. Currently honing up arguments with Ray. He's given me a few insights
into approaching cross-disciplinary material, and the matter of Celtosceptics
and antinativists is rather current.
Kevin
Dana
[...]
>I've never said that the Irish way should be used for a general Celtic
>approach. I've always suggested that the Irish material might help a
>general Celtic student look in the right directions to find their own
>answers. Those who seek to follow Irish Celtic ways are very lucky to have
>such a wealth of material to study. This doesn't mean I think they should
>ignore other Celtic ways. I certainly don't ignore any valid Celtic
>material, though I follow the Irish way as faithfully as is possible.
Searles, if you'd stopped right here, it would have been great. I can
completely agree with--and even applaud--the sentiments expressed in this
paragraph. It reflects what I've always believed myself, including the very
great value of the Irish material to any student of the Celts. If you are
honest, you will admit you have never heard me *devalue* the Irish material,
but only advocate that there is more to Celtic culture and lore than only
that.
However.....
When you continue on for several more KB about the Dagda, you give the
appearance of someone who thinks they still have a point to drive home
because someone *still* isn't "getting it." What is "it" if you in fact
have no problem that not *everyone* accepts the Dagda as "the god of
Druids"? At the end of the day it very much seems here as though you're
paying the necessary lip service to Tolerance and Respect For Other Views,
but in fact you are going to keep on and on loudly droning *your* personal
views until all the other voices are drowned out and everyone has run out of
breath and no one is speaking but you.
To continue......
>To cite some examples regarding the Dagda as the Irish god of Druids and
>also as the chief Irish god, here's a post I made in the Summerlands Druid
>section some 3 years ago:
> Who is the god of Druids?
Why do you rephrase this from "Irish god of Druids" to just "god of Druids"?
That has the effect of projecting the Dagda outside of Ireland and onto
all of Druidry as a whole. I'm even willing to bet (although I can't claim
to have met them)
that there are Irish Druids out there who do *not* acknowledge the Dagda as
their supreme god and have some very valid reasons for doing so, but that's
another matter--maybe I'm wrong there. In any case, I've never understood
why you feel that *all* Druids need to have gods, let alone only one. You
make it seem as though Druidry *must* be a religion and I know quite well
that's not the case in the modern day. If you, as a Druid, feel the need to
have--or believe in the worship of--*a* god, that's fine. But why expect,
let alone insist, that *everyone else* do likewise?
>To me this question can be answered by
> understanding what was considered holy by Druids. The sacred knowledge of
> the Druids held truth, skill and honor to be the triad most highly
respected
> and taught among the Celts. The deity that most closely represents these
> three ideals to me is An Dagda, the Good God, who was good at everything
he
> did.
This last sentence is your personal belief and you are absolutely, totally
entitled to it
and to have it respected in my universe. It is *not* my personal belief,
however, nor is it the belief of many others. Will you likewise allow us
our beliefs
and accord them the same respect?
> In the Irish tales there are two mentions of the God of the Druids (by
> name). The first mention is cited in the article, "The First Battle of
> Moytura," edited by J. Fraser in Ériu 8, p.16 and the second mention is in
> the article, "How the Dagda Got His Magic Staff," in "Medieval Studies in
> Memory of Gertrude Schoepperle Loomis," by Osborn, Bergin, Geneva, 1927,
> page 402. The Dagda is called, "dagdia druidechta Túath Dé Danann." This
> is the God of Druids that Mogh Roith calls upon in his incantations as
> well: An Dagda, God of Druids.
Yes, but not *all* Druids.
> Here's some more information that supports the idea of The Dagda being the
> God of Druids:
>
> On page 121 of _Cath Maige Tuired_, translation and notes by Elizabeth
> Gray, he is characterized as," Master of druidic arts.."
That would be entirely appropriate for a god of Druids. IIRC, Lugh was also
master of many skills and arts.
> On page 64, of _Celtic Mythology_ by Proinsius Mac Cana:
>
> "..credited with much wisdom, and another of his names or titles describes
> him as Ruadh Rofhessa, 'The Mighty One of Great Knowledge'. It is fitting
> therefore that he should also be qualified, as he is on several occasions,
> as a god of druidism."
*A* god....not *the* god.
> On page 104 of _The Metrical Dindshenchas, Vol. IV_, translation and notes
> by Edward Gwynn, it was said of The Dagda:
>
> "Cia rí buí for Érinn uile glé-binn glaine.
> acht in Dagdae druinne? ni chluine nach n-amra n-aile."
>
> "Who was king over all Erinn, sweet-sounding radiant?
> Who but the skillful Dagda? You hear of none other so famous."
This says to me he was famous in Ireland. It doesn't say they'd ever heard
of him down on the Danube or at La Tène.
> That the Druids had a god is shown in _Forbhais Droma Damhgháire_ as
> translated by Seán Ó Duinn, where the great Druid Mogh Roith says:
>
> "Dia na ndraoithe, mo dhía thar gach dia, dia an tseandrua seo."
>
> "God of druids, my god above every god, he is god of the ancient druids."
This seems to bear a very heavy Christian influence in the need to exalt
one's god above everyone else's. Can anyone out there more familiar with
the Irish literature than I am comment about the reliability of text and
translator?
> From Ériu VII, 221.5:
>
> "tri druid Dagda"
>
> On page 86 under the heading "druid," in _Dictionary of Celtic Myth and
> Mythology_, by Miranda Green (sources quoted are: O'Fáolain, 1954; Bray
> 1987, 209-215; Watson 1981, 165-80; Cormier 1976-8, 303-15; Green 1986,
> 26-8; Pigott 1968; Le Roux & Guyonvarc'h 1974, 96-112; Nash 1976, 124;
> Jackson 1964; Cunliffe 1979, 106-10):
>
> "The Daghda was credited with being a god of druidism, which may refer to
> magic or prophecy."
Again, *a* god, not *the* god.
> In _The Sacred Isle, Belief and Religion in Pre-Christian Ireland_, pp.
> 108-109, Dáithí Ó hÓgáin says:
>
> "Since, according to Caesar, the father god was especially the patron
> divinity of the Gaulish Druids, one is inclined to look for elements
within
> the portrayal of the Dagda which would indicate a Druidic rational..."
The point has been made elsewhere that the Romans were prone to interpreting
non-Roman cultures in Roman terms, inevitably resulting in distortion if not
outright inaccuracy. And....without question, the Dagda is *a* Druidic god.
> "The portrayals of this major deity have been correlated in a manner which
> is very adept and consistent. He is solar, provident and life producing;
he
> regulates time and agriculture; he exists in the world of the living by
day
> but in that of the dead by night, yet unites these two worlds. This
latter
> he does according to a pattern which gives preeminence to the more
> mysterious of the two, the realm of the dead. Such a pattern would, of
> course, have been to the advantage of the special caste who involve
> themselves in mantic practices, such as the Druids did. Most pertinent of
> all to the issue of Druidic influence is the Dagda's special designation
> Aedh Ruadh Ró-fhessa ('red fire of all knowledge') which focuses the
special
> area of interest of a learned caste."
This reiterates that the Dagda was *a* Druidic god. No question about it.
> "As if to illustrate the Celtic belief that the night comes before the
day,
> the Dagda as divine ancestor, had preeminence in the Irish pantheon." (at
> this point Ó hÓgáin goes on to provide examples of the Dagda regulating
the
> seasons, controlling the Sun, possessing the chief brugh of Ireland and
> generally being the chief god of the Irish pantheon).
If the Dagda was preeminent in Ireland, that's all well and good for
Ireland. However, not all Druids lived in Ireland and not all Celts were
Irish.
> It is clear to me from these quotations that The Dagda was the chief god
of
> the Irish Celts
I can see how you would come to that conclusion. It seems valid, but I
would be interested to hear views from Irish Druids who differ, if they're
out there.
> and that he was also the God of Druids.
But here I *cannot* agree unless you'd qualified it by specifying *Irish*
Druids. Or changing the article from "the" to "a''. And you don't. You're
a writer. So am I. We know to choose our words very carefully to get our
point across.
So...let's look at this issue from a slightly different angle. Consider
these two statements:
1. "The Dagda is the god of Druids."
2. "The Dagda is the god of this Druid."
Statement #1 is a declaration that encompasses the entire set of all Druids
everywhere. In order to be true, it requires all Welsh Druids, Scots Druids,
Cornish Druids, Manx Druids, Breton Druids, Gaulish Druids, etc., etc. to
agree that an Irish deity is their god.
This is statement demands that all conform to one standard. It does not
respect individual differences or experiences.
Statement #2 OTOH is a declaration of personal belief. It implies the
acknowledgement that there are individual differences out there. It also
implies respect for those differences and invites respect in return.
It's a very small change of wording but it makes all the difference in the
world.
Because......on the personal level for me, it comes down to this: When it
is insisted to me that, "The Dagda is the god of Druids", when quote after
quote and post after post are put out to back up this contention, what is
being demanded (not even asked) of this Welsh person on a Druidic path is to
accept as some sort of supreme deity a god who was never worshipped by my
ancestors and
never acknowledged in their Land. This disrespects my personal beliefs, my
ancestors' beliefs and practices, and the Land from which I trace that
ancestry. This cannot help but be offensive to me. It likewise disrepects
anyone else out there who is not Irish, and so I am offended on their behalf
as well. If I do not object to this, if I do not speak up to present an
alternate view--then I am no Druid, I am no Cymraes, I have turned my
back on Yr Gwir Erbyn y Byd.
What becomes of my honor if I do not use what skill I have to defend my and
my ancestors' Truth?
Dana
Searles ODubhain
Dan asked for that information specifically. Please try to read the messages
a little more completely and objectively.
Searles
"Dana" <yo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:PTTj7.1446$l8.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
<snip>
> When you continue on for several more KB about the Dagda, you give the
> appearance of someone who thinks they still have a point to drive home
> because someone *still* isn't "getting it." What is "it" if you in fact
> have no problem that not *everyone* accepts the Dagda as "the god of
> Druids"? <snip>