Gwynvid, Ceugant, and the Qabalah
necro
I have just began to receive the Gwers that OBOD send out to their members
(Bard Grade) and I must say they are really good. Much easier to understand
and learn form then say a huge Volume on Druidry. My Question is this...
When I was reading about the Circle of Creation, it mentions that Gwynvid
the White Life, is as far as humanity can reach. For beyond it is the realm
of the Divine, Ceugant. I take it Gwynvid can be reached through passing on
(i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms of
Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
Just a very wondrous and odd thought, thats all :-)
::necro::
Searles O'Dubhain
Searles
necro <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8jo2ml$qb2$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
<snip>
necro
>I think they mean that you can't reach Ceugant and remain human.
>
>Searles
>
Ahh I see, thank you Searles, I have been lurking (posting o so very rarely)
here some time now, and I knew I could trust you to come up with an
immediate answer.
::necro::
Teacup
ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk inquired:
> I take it Gwynvid can be reached through passing on
>(i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms of
>Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
>reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
>with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
>
If I remember my Qabalah studies correctly, a seeker working the Middle Pillar
Path would only be capable of achieving Tipareth while alive, and only then if
they were an extremely enlightened individual (Jesus & Buddha were always the
examples given). So I think this would probably correspond to Gwynvid.
Kether/Binah/Chokmah were inaccessible to souls still on the Wheel of
Reincarnation--possibly this "across the Abyss" place is the Qabalah's version
of Ceugant?
I think drawing correspondences between the Qabalah and the Druidic view of the
cosmos is quite valid. Although I long ago abandoned the Qabalah for most of
my working (way too much order for this disorderly Welshwoman!), I still return
to it from time to time for the patterns it lays out. I've never doubted its
truth.
My question is this: IIRC, the labels of Abred, Gwynvid and Ceugant come from
the writings of Iolo Morganwg. He in turn had contacts among Masons and
possibly other occultists of his day, who would certainly be familiar with the
Qabalah. Is it possible that the Qabalistic system is in fact an inspiration
for Morganwg's Circles of Existence? Or are there earlier Druidic writings on
this topic?
Thoughts, anybody?
Teacup
Searles O'Dubhain
concepts and ancient Celtic ideas. It is thought that he invented the terms
for Abred, Gwynvid and Ceugant. When he talks about Annwn in his "Barddas,"
only then is he speaking about a historically documented Celtic concept. It
is thought by some (the Matthews, Collin Murray, OBOD) that the Three Worlds
(Upper, Middle, Lower), as defined by Taliesin's cosmology, correspond to
Ceugant, Abred, and Annwn.
The Three Pillars of the Cabala and its ten worlds are an analog for the
levels of being and existence. As such, they address the various levels of
development in the microcosm/ in a way that is similar to the Three
Cauldrons and the Nine Du/ile. Other systems (such as Iolo's) also attempt
to mirror these stages of development, so some similarities will occur. I
think that Iolo attempted to mirror the Three Pillars of the Cabala in his
understandinng and explanation of the Awen as being symbolized by "O I V"
when he said:
"it was by means of this word that God declared hi existence, life,
knowledge, power, eternity and universality. And in the declaration was his
love, that is coinstantaneously with it sprung like lightning all the
universe into life and existence, co-vocally and co-jubilantly with the
uttered Name of God, in one united song of exultation and joy - than all the
worlds to the extremities of Annwn."
How much of what Iolo wrote is authentic, how much is forged and how much is
misunderstood is (as always) difficult to separate. Much of it remains to be
analyzed, verified or discarded when authentic independent documents are
found.
Searles
Teacup <tii...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000702183043...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
Searles O'Dubhain
variety. Ceugant meaning "form" is a long way from it meaning "the ultimate
state of pure rejoicing to which life continually aspires."
Searles
Tom Byrne <t...@byrne86.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8jop74$4o0$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> My Welsh dictionary of 1688 (100 years pre Iolo) translates Ceugant as
> "firmness"
>
> Regards
>
> Tom Byrne
>
C. Leigh Nic Fhionghaile
"HeyokaBear" <drmn...@poboxx.com> wrote in message
news:drmngbear-DBC00...@news.ne.mediaone.net...
> Alot of the difficulty (I know, as for 20 years + I have been working on a
way
> to describe it as well) comes from the attempt to describe what can only
be
> experienced.
Exactly. That is why they are called Mysteries. The Truth is
unspeakable.
> I highly recommend finding a language and sticking with it as your primary
way
> of understanding the pathways of reality, such as celtic or judaic, and
*living*
> it. All pathways, when deeply embraced, show the way to the divine.
Good advice.
TopazOwl
--
*************************************
The more I learn, the less I know.
*************************************
1 X 2 Willows
> In a message dated 7/2/00 7:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, "necro"
> ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk inquired:
>
> > I take it Gwynvid can be reached through passing on
> >(i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms
of
> >Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
> >reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
> >with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
I agree with Searles that Gwynwid can very well be reached in a lifetime -
only that the rest of humanity will need whatever time seems appropriate
(some generations...? Thousands of years...?) to aknowledge that you did...
(probably the reason why the Kabbalah names Jesus or Bhuddha in this
context)
> If I remember my Qabalah studies correctly, a seeker working the Middle
Pillar
> Path would only be capable of achieving Tipareth while alive, and only
then if
> they were an extremely enlightened individual (Jesus & Buddha were always
the
> examples given).
Aside from the simple problem of having to translate the Tipareth into the
exact equivalent of a Celtic cosmology, I do doubt that the different
approaches based on the very same quest and questions of human beings rooted
in such different environments as the Celtic world - as we tend to define
it - and the far eastern tribes of old would be compatible enough to express
their opinions and found solutions of truth in the same words and ways as we
do on an international base (with the English language as a meeting point)
today.
> So I think this would probably correspond to Gwynvid.
In all respect - there you go...
> Kether/Binah/Chokmah were inaccessible to souls still on the Wheel of
> Reincarnation--possibly this "across the Abyss" place is the Qabalah's
version
> of Ceugant?
posssibly...?!
> I think drawing correspondences between the Qabalah and the Druidic view
of the
> cosmos is quite valid.
In all respect - I don't...
> Although I long ago abandoned the Qabalah for most of
> my working (way too much order for this disorderly Welshwoman!), I still
return
> to it from time to time for the patterns it lays out. I've never doubted
its
> truth.
It is and always will be the ultimate truth to the leaf that sprung of the
root, and this is good so...
> My question is this: IIRC, the labels of Abred, Gwynvid and Ceugant come
from
> the writings of Iolo Morganwg. He in turn had contacts among Masons and
> possibly other occultists of his day, who would certainly be familiar with
the
> Qabalah. Is it possible that the Qabalistic system is in fact an
inspiration
> for Morganwg's Circles of Existence? Or are there earlier Druidic
writings on
> this topic?
Sorry - I'll have to pass on that one, since Morganwg and eventual buddies
are not up my ally... I do recall the term of Gwynvid as a valid definition
detached from "the forger's" publications though, which leaves the
discussion open and intact.
To ask for earlier Druidic writings is sort of a a paradoxum, of course,
since Iolo himself was pretty much the first one to try to converse the
verbal teachings into the world of written language.
<trying to remember who it was, that coined the statement...>
Dan T. Felber / One next to Willows
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/euro-celts
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Das Ausland beginnt fuer manche dort, wo ihr Denkvermoegen aufhoert."
"For some people, 'abroad' begins where their imagination comes to an end"
Heinrich Wiedemann
..................................
HeyokaBear
<odub...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I think they mean that you can't reach Ceugant and remain human.
>
> Searles
Sort of like me before coffee. Sigh. Its hard to be a roll model.
<g>
"rolling rolling rolling...<sing it with me now...>.........--->"
> necro <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8jo2ml$qb2$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> <snip>
>
> > When I was reading about the Circle of Creation, it mentions that Gwynvid
> > the White Life, is as far as humanity can reach. For beyond it is the
> realm
> > of the Divine, Ceugant. I take it Gwynvid can be reached through passing
> on
> > (i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms of
> > Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
> > reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
> > with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
>
>
>
=====================================
home is where the art is
to reply remove one "x" from poboxx
=====================================
HeyokaBear
<ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> I have just began to receive the Gwers that OBOD send out to their members
> (Bard Grade) and I must say they are really good. Much easier to understand
> and learn form then say a huge Volume on Druidry. My Question is this...
>
> When I was reading about the Circle of Creation, it mentions that Gwynvid
> the White Life, is as far as humanity can reach. For beyond it is the realm
> of the Divine, Ceugant. I take it Gwynvid can be reached through passing on
> (i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms of
> Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
> reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
> with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
>
> Just a very wondrous and odd thought, thats all :-)
>
> ::necro::
A few comments...
First of all, the system is not the truth; the explanation does not (should not,
often does) determine the reality. What you perceive is not an alchemy of system
mixing - the formulas are not thought formulas, the truths are not canned truths.
The labels we choose to use ("Circle of Creation", "Gwynvid", "Ceugant" etc) are
NOT the experience of the things those point to. So to me, what you just asked
is like saying, if I say a prayer to god in both spanish AND english, where
would the prayer reach? Or, if I understand an engineering problem both
logically and verbally, as well as mathematically, at what rate would the house
get built?
The Quabbalah talks of the Ain Soph, the unknowable (the divine, the reality
before reality) as does almost every other "language" of understanding, such as
celtic. But think about it - that we can talk of the unspeakable is a paradox.
And after the Ain Soph emanated the three sephira called Chokma, Binah, and
Kether (not in that order). Its a "language". A way of describing truth, not the
truth. As in the Tao te ching - "the tao that can be spoken is not the real tao."
Searles said the key was "and remain human" - I agree. There are places you can
go that are so foreign to "what is human" that to even see them is to lose the
predilictions of humanity. Not easy.
We are human and divine, a continuum. And just as fascinating, step sideways.
You leave things behind to see, and gain ways of seeing. Depending on from where
you are looking, you already ARE divine.
Alot of the difficulty (I know, as for 20 years + I have been working on a way
to describe it as well) comes from the attempt to describe what can only be
experienced.
I highly recommend finding a language and sticking with it as your primary way
of understanding the pathways of reality, such as celtic or judaic, and *living*
it. All pathways, when deeply embraced, show the way to the divine.
Just my 2 cents
blessings
bear
Tom Byrne
"firmness"
Regards
Tom Byrne
Searles O'Dubhain <odub...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8joom7$vnh$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> Iolo attempted to forge (in more than one way) a link between Christian
> concepts and ancient Celtic ideas. It is thought that he invented the
terms
> for Abred, Gwynvid and Ceugant. When he talks about Annwn in his
"Barddas,"
> only then is he speaking about a historically documented Celtic concept.
It
> is thought by some (the Matthews, Collin Murray, OBOD) that the Three
Worlds
> (Upper, Middle, Lower), as defined by Taliesin's cosmology, correspond to
> Ceugant, Abred, and Annwn.
>
.
Kevin Jones
> Yet another area where the information surrounding Iolo's work is of a mixed
> variety. Ceugant meaning "form" is a long way from it meaning "the ultimate
> state of pure rejoicing to which life continually aspires."
Unless of course, he was going through the idea of Platonic forms. The best way
of considering these is that they were the pure ideas upon which material
reality existed.
Personally I'm not keen on Iolo's labels.
Kevin
IBPixie
>
> Sort of like me before coffee. Sigh. Its hard to be a roll model.
>
> <g>
>
> "rolling rolling rolling...<sing it with me now...>.........--->"
hmmmmm.. was thinking of a different kind of roll.. like what goes with
coffee YUM... no fair tempting sleepy pixies on their way to work !
Underground Panther
> (i.e death), but you can't access Ceugant. So then, if we talk in terms of
> Qabalah (I maybe confusing myself from this point on) which is a tool to
> reach/become divine, at what point can we reach if we were to mix Druidry
> with the Qabalah? Is it possible to reach Ceugant?
>
> Just a very wondrous and odd thought, thats all :-)
I had a flash,I thought I'd share it,It could be way off I dunno But it's a
neat thought anyway.,What if Ceugnant ,was to be ever
transforming,egoless,fluid?To be selfless to the point of not being human?
Each of our genes fights selfishly to reproduce itself what if we made our
genes stop being so selfish and to not recognize iteself as self? What
possibles would that open in us?
Surely it would from a human place look very non-human to lose recognition
of self like that..Is Ceugnant the state in a land of no time no
identity,no desires,past present all one transforming endless open doors of
possible no shapes?
What if you took every person's idea's about what reality may be and thier
paradigms and walked the path awhile and scooped from it the clear wisdom
and meanings, leaving behind the sullied parts that appeal to ego,and built
it up a window with these idea blocks /methods to reflect what is true
because all things exist and we co-create it and take care of it . What if
you flew out this window...
Is Ceugnant a way to be put through your clear flute body the lightning of
conciousness to play out of?
Sometimes when I see very enlightened people beautuiful poetry falls from
thier lips, consiousness so otherworldly, confdence so firm in upheaval,and
sense in them joy and the sweetest of winds follow in thier wake as they
just flow,change shapes in an everlasting fractal spiral dance..,maybe
being that in miniature,as a mirror clear connected, is Ceugnant?
Underground Panther in the Sky
HeyokaBear
bear
In article <8jsod5$a25$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Underground Panther"
<fur...@erols.com> wrote:
=====================================
Searles O'Dubhain
Gwynfydd is when one has learned the lessons of life while Abred is the
constant circling of life, struggle and rebirth. These are very similar to
the ideas of the cauldrons as advanced by Amergin in the "Cauldron of Poesy"
materials. Here's the way they might be associated:
Cauldron of Wisdom/Celebration - Ceugant (Celebration = At-One-Ment ?)
Cauldron of Motion/Vocation - Gwynfydd (Vocation = learning lessons?)
Cauldron of Warming/Sustaining - Abred (Sustaining = constant struggle)
This seems to be another case where Iolo's work may contain elements of
tradition (as a beginning). This does not mean that the interpretations and
expansions of Iolo on the subject are any more correct than anyone else's.
Searles
Underground Panther <fur...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:8jsod5$a25$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
<snip>
IBPixie
> > Just a very wondrous and odd thought, thats all :-)
>
you have described the One that i feel
Thankyou Panther
pix
healingline
interesting that the highest of them are characterized as firm
or solid (haqqiqat) as opposed to transitional, transitory
levels of insight or ecstasy (hal). The very highest is complete
merging with oneness of the Divine. Like Searles' term "at-one-
ment."
So if old Iolo knew Qabbalah better or Sufism better, or
pranayama better, what's the diff? IMO ancient humans differed
in the physiological makeup of their consiousness sufficiently
that mystical practices had to be invented later to replicate
the feelings of closeness to Nature that were automatic and
instictive in ancestral humans. What Those Druids did will
necessarily differ from what We Druids (OR 17thc.18thc. Druids
ftm) do to achieve communion states.
healingline
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
HeyokaBear
<healingli...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> The Sufis have levels of attainment, also schematized. It is
> interesting that the highest of them are characterized as firm
> or solid (haqqiqat) as opposed to transitional, transitory
> levels of insight or ecstasy (hal). The very highest is complete
> merging with oneness of the Divine. Like Searles' term "at-one-
> ment."
> So if old Iolo knew Qabbalah better or Sufism better, or
> pranayama better, what's the diff? IMO ancient humans differed
> in the physiological makeup of their consiousness sufficiently
> that mystical practices had to be invented later to replicate
> the feelings of closeness to Nature that were automatic and
> instictive in ancestral humans. What Those Druids did will
> necessarily differ from what We Druids (OR 17thc.18thc. Druids
> ftm) do to achieve communion states.
> healingline
>
I don't know that i would say its physical, but I agree that the world views
were SO different that perception would be extremely different, and modes of
being too.
I dont know that I would say it isnt physical either <grin>
bear
healingline
you mention him, as well as other, flakier sources. I would be
unable to substantiate any argument for the prior status of
either mentality or its physical manifestation/foundation. Much
has been said, by many about so-called "atavistic clairvoyance"
that could actually hinder one's rational thinking (with too
much superstition perhaps?) Some theorize that rogue psychic
talents are the cause of mental illness.
....must...hang onto...real...world.....AAAGH (losing balance)
Hmm, that wasn't as funny as I thought; sorry. Too many
unfolding seers on this ng.
Teacup
remarked:
>I don't know that i would say its physical, but I agree that the world views
>were SO different that perception would be extremely different, and modes of
>being too.
I don't presume to know that this is what healingline is referring to, but I do
remember reading Julian Jayne's _The Bicameral Mind_ *many, many* years ago.
His theory, IIRC, was that ancient human communities had much stronger psychic
links than we do today and in fact existed in a state of pretty constant
psychic communion, a result of the brain actually functioning differently than
it does now. He also said, IIRC, that humans began to shift out of this brain
state somewhere around the 6th cent. BCE, and that the Assyrians and their
violent, "paternalistic" empire were one of the earliest demonstrations of this
change.
However, having said so much......this does not mean that the human brain has
actually changed in its structure. To do so would mean a shift into a new
variety of human, as I understand these things, and the physical evidence
refutes that (we're still the same, exact critters...). So humans once used
their brains (and their psychic gifts?) to connect more strongly and
spiritually with those around them than they do now? Seems like it's more a
matter of relearning than of mourning something forever lost.....
If anybody out there is familiar with Jayne's work and I've garbled it, I
apologize. It's been over 20 years since I read the book. Some of it stuck,
but the book wandered off with the college boyfriend and hasn't been seen since
(a good thing in the case of the BF....)
Teacup
jjb
Teacup wrote in message <20000706020009.25930.00001039@ng->However, having
said so much......this does not mean that the human brain has
>actually changed in its structure. To do so would mean a shift into a new
>variety of human, as I understand these things, and the physical evidence
>refutes that (we're still the same, exact critters...). So humans once
used
>their brains (and their psychic gifts?) to connect more strongly and
>spiritually with those around them than they do now? Seems like it's more
a
>matter of relearning than of mourning something forever lost.....
I think the full title is 'The Origins of Conciousness and the Breakdown of
the Bicameral Mind'. I don't think anything 'psychic' was implied, but that
rationality and conciousness were more divided in the human mind/psyche.
Voices heard in the head (i.e. conciousness pseaking to the rational part of
the mind) were interpreted as the voice(s) of the gods, as they were somehow
viewed internally as being from an external voice. In fact, it could point
to a different type of brain functionality than we have today (except
perhaps in rare cases), without changing the 'variety' of homo sapiens.
Jerry
*****
'Load of old stones in a field up beyond the village,' said the landlord.
'Load of weirdies came along last summer and had a festival, Druids or
something. I said to them, "Piss off, you load of Druids."'
- from 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin'
Underground Panther
jjb <x...@x.com> wrote in message news:3964749a$1...@devnews.star.net.uk...
> Voices heard in the head (i.e. conciousness pseaking to the rational part
of
> the mind) were interpreted as the voice(s) of the gods, as they were
somehow
> viewed internally as being from an external voice. In fact, it could point
> to a different type of brain functionality than we have today (except
> perhaps in rare cases), without changing the 'variety' of homo sapiens.
>
> Jerry
Oh,Yeah I gotta recommend A book,
The User Illusion by Tor Norrentranders...
This book goes into the consciousness issue and uses in it's reference the
Bicameral mind book you mentioned.. This is an Incredibly good book.It takes
physics,psychology,history,evolution biology,paradigm ,free will
,Art,Religion,Gaia theory,and myths among tons of other stuff to find what
is..consciousness.It is brilliant.
One of the best books I've read this year.
If anyone gets it and reads it,I'd love to discuss it.t could spawn all
sorts of neat topics.
1 X 2 Willows
>
> Oh,Yeah I gotta recommend A book,
> The User Illusion by Tor Norrentranders...
>
- sounds very interesting indeed.
Would you have an ISBN for it?
Dan
Tom Byrne
Called Abred by the bards, some writers say
Is really just a course that bears the flow
Of life from dark Annwn upon the way
To Gwynfyd, or Felicity, and then
To Ceugant, that which in itself exists.
This course is not a simple one, for when
Life flows it eddies. Who can know its twists?
Necessity, forgetfulness and death
Are Abred's three defining qualities.
As much a part of being alive as breath
Inhaled; to be is to contend with these.
For Abred is a sort of churning cauldron;
These negatives its motivating forces.
This is the sin we pass on to our children:
Submission to the churning's random courses.
Necessity. What animal is free?
They're bound to feed, to reproduce and die.
As life flows from Annwn complexity
Increases, but no species sheds this tie,
With one noble exception, humankind.
All life's activities have just one goal:
Perpetuation of the genes. This bind
Most rigidly defines each creature's role.
Forgetfulness. No creature may recall
Experience before its current birth,
But only instinct helps it to forestall
An early death, before its time on earth
Eventually gives it some perspective.
Again, there's one exception to this rule,
For humankind hands down its own collective
Knowledge, using language as its tool.
And death, the flow of life's grim mechanism.
Life passes from Annwn to Abred's edge
Through death and rebirth. This determinism
Binds all but humankind. Our privilege
Is this: we have the chance to be reborn
In Gwynfyd, or the sphere felicitous.
Exchanging Abred's dusk for Gwynfyd's dawn
Makes evil, want and death superfluous.
A short extract from my long poem "Caer Sidi"
Regards
Tom Byrne
"IBPixie" <IBP...@pixietree.com> wrote in message
news:rks85.1551$ef3.4...@homer.alpha.net...
Romy Schumann
"Starseekers". I know he's considered one of the 'flakier' writers but to me
so much of what he writes makes sense! I don't have a copy with me, but I'm
sure his bibliography lists many other books in the same vein.
Blessings,
ROMY
jjb <x...@x.com> wrote in message news:3964749a$1...@devnews.star.net.uk...
>
> Teacup wrote in message <20000706020009.25930.00001039@ng->However, having
> said so much......this does not mean that the human brain has
> >actually changed in its structure. To do so would mean a shift into a
new
> >variety of human, as I understand these things, and the physical evidence
> >refutes that (we're still the same, exact critters...). So humans once
> used
> >their brains (and their psychic gifts?) to connect more strongly and
> >spiritually with those around them than they do now? Seems like it's
more
> a
> >matter of relearning than of mourning something forever lost.....
>
> I think the full title is 'The Origins of Conciousness and the Breakdown
of
> the Bicameral Mind'. I don't think anything 'psychic' was implied, but
that
> rationality and conciousness were more divided in the human mind/psyche.
> Voices heard in the head (i.e. conciousness pseaking to the rational part
of
> the mind) were interpreted as the voice(s) of the gods, as they were
somehow
> viewed internally as being from an external voice. In fact, it could point
> to a different type of brain functionality than we have today (except
> perhaps in rare cases), without changing the 'variety' of homo sapiens.
>
> Jerry
>
jjb
Romy Schumann wrote in message <39658939$0$2...@helios.is.co.za>...
>Colin Wilson discusses this same thing in the first chapter of his book
>"Starseekers". I know he's considered one of the 'flakier' writers but to
me
>so much of what he writes makes sense! I don't have a copy with me, but I'm
>sure his bibliography lists many other books in the same vein.
He's 'flakier' nowadays (IMHO) but in the past has written some excellent
books. 'Starseekers' is one of them.
Underground Panther
1 X 2 Willows <wil...@summerlands.com> wrote in message
news:8k2hni$27g$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Yeah,it's
ISBN 0-670-87579-1
enjoy! Tell me what you thought after you read it.
Underground Panther in the Sky.
>
1 X 2 Willows
>
> > enjoy! Tell me what you thought after you read it.
will do, thanks
Dan