Christian History: Council of Elvira of 306
Western World
Elvira is a stark exposure of the fierce intolerance found in the
emerging Christian world at the time. Tragicly, and against all we
regard as principles of liberty, we see in this canon that some
non-Christian religious rituals had become capital crimes, reflecting
core values of violence, arrogance and intolerance because the ideas are
based upon literal readings of scripture. In time the early Christian
Emperors would increasingly enact agendas against religious diversity
and decree similar laws reflecting this dictatorial religious worldview
found in Elvira's Canons.
Canon 1:
A baptized adult who commits the capital
crime of sacrificing to the idols is not to
receive communion even when death
approaches.
Canon 34:
Candles are not to be burned in a cemetery
during the day. This practice is related to
paganism and is harmful to Christians. Those
who do this are to be denied the communion
of the church.
Canon 59:
A Christian may not go to the capitol and
watch the pagans offer their sacrifices. If a
Christian does, he or she is guilty of the same
sin and may not commune before completing
ten years of penance.
Elvira banned all intimate and social relationships between Christians
and Jews. One was forbidden to marry a Jew. One couldnt even share a
meal with a Jewish person. Of the 81 Canons of Elvira, over 20 addressed
and legitimized some level of discrimination towards Pagans, Jews. and
Christian heretics. These canons made dicrimination and religious
intolerance the law of the flock. It is in Elvira that anti-Semitism is
first sanctioned by church leaders. It is on Elvira that the foundation
is laid for the future pogroms of murder, torture and summary
imprisonment of dissenters. It is on Elvira that the foundation is laid
for the arson and demolition of pagan temples, classical libraries and
Jewish synagogues. It is on Elvira that the foundation is laid for the
violent inquisitions, crusades, and forced conversions that fill
Christian history. It is in Elvira that we see the character of
Biblical and Canonical Christianity as it emerges in late antiquity.
Canon 49:
Landlords are not to allow Jews to bless the
crops they have received from God and for which
they have offered thanks. Such an action would
make our blessing invalid and meaningless.
Anyone who continues this practice is to be
expelled completely from the church.
Canon 50:
If any cleric or layperson eats with Jews,
he or she shall be kept from communion
as a way of correction.
Perpetual excommunication was the penalty for pagan worship or any
support of pagan rituals. Things would get much worse with the imperial
government's growing promotion of and eventual establishment of
Christianity as the law of the land. Canon 5 even treats servants and
slaves as beings with fewer rights, a different code of justice and no
respect for personal dignity just as Exodus 20 and 21 do in the dialogue
from the commandments.
In the next few centuries, Imperial decrees would incorporate
Biblically founded ideas supporting religious intolerance into the body
of Roman Law. Being religiously incorrect was punishable by death in
the Old Testament and this religious error damns one to eternal torment
in the New Testament. Imperial decrees would confiscate religious
properties, destroy temples, end testamentary rights, steal
inheritances, prohibit assemblies, banish religious leaders, and execute
many.
Deuteronomy 7:1-4:
"When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into
the land whither thou goest to possess it, and
hath cast out many nations before thee, the
Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites,
and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and
the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations
greater and mightier than thou;
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver
them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and
utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no
covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:"
Neither shalt thou make marriages with them;
thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son,
nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For
they will turn away thy son from following me,
that they may serve other gods: so will the anger
of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy
thee suddenly."
Canons 15, 16 and 17 prohibit a woman from marrying any person with a
non-Nicene religious belief. That meant pagans, Jews and Christians of
non-Nicene beliefs. Parents that allowed their children to marry a Jew
or heretic were barred from the church community for 5 years. If parents
allowed their daughter to marry a pagan priest, they were barred for
life, even if death approached.
15. Christian girls are not to marry pagans,
no matter how few eligible men there are, for
such marriages lead to adultery of the soul.
16. Heretics shall not be joined in marriage
with Catholic girls unless they accept the
Catholic faith. Catholic girls may not marry
Jews or heretics, because they cannot find a
unity when the faithful and the unfaithful are
joined. Parents who allow this to happen shall
not commune for five years.
17. If parents allow their daughter to marry a
pagan priest, they shall not receive communion
even at the time of death.
Again we can see clear scriptural 'precedent' and support for these
positions.
The Bishops went as far as threatening perpetual excomunication of
parents that allowed their daughter to marry a Flamen (a magistrate of
the Roman civil and religious authorities). In Canon 57, the bishops
prescribed 3 years of excommunication for any Christian that allowed his
clothes or ornaments to be used in Pagan feasts or games.
Canon 40.
Landlords may not receive as rent anything
that has already been offered to idols. If they do
so, they shall be excluded from communion for
five years.
Canon 41.
Christians are to prohibit their slaves from
keeping idols in their houses. If this is impossible
to enforce, they must at least avoid the idols
and remain pure. If this does not happen, they
are alienated from the church.
Canons 40, and 41 attacked paganism in a way that sought to discourage
and wipe it out by usiing landlords and slaveowners. Within a feudal
society this kind of coercion worked very well for many centuries. This
is the tyranny of the powerful that Christianity, like every other
authoritarian regime, embraced to forcefully further their causes. In
the 6th century, Pope Gregory would tell the landlords of England and
Gaul to "jack up their rents" if pagans wouldnt convert.
Canon 62:
Chariot racers or pantomimes
must first renounce their profession and promise
not to resume it before they may become Christians.
If they fail to keep this promise, they shall be
expelled from the church.
Canon 57:
Women and men who willingly allow their
clothing to be used in secular spectacles
and processions shall be denied communion
for three years.
The Synod of Elvira also signaled an attack on theater and the stage
with Canon 62, which required all actors and charioteers quit their
profression before they could be admitted for membership in the church.
Elvira also sought to strangle circuses, parades and competitions by
threatening believers with 3 years of excommunication for any material
support of them.
Canon 21:
If anyone who lives in the city does not
attend church services for three Sundays, let
that person be expelled for a brief time in order
to make the reproach public.
Elvira sought to put everyone under a microscope and demanded that all
go to church to be accounted for. This kind of scrutiny and demand
would continue right into the age when religious tests were finally
banned. It would not be until Thomas Jefferson authored the Virginia
statutes on religious liberty which prohibited any church attendance
requirements for standing in a community. Then in the Federal
constitution of the USA, religious tests for oaths of office (community
standing, etc) were finally banned, making one's religion irrelevant as
far as public service went.
At the 401 Synod of Carthage, they requested that such public amusements
would be outlawed on 'the Lord's day'. This attitude would remain a
factor for many centuries, steadily weakening until the Reformation,
which became, among many things, a reactionary movement against science,
reason and humanism. It lay at the foundation of 17th century English
and Massachusetts Puritanism which opposed and feared so much of the
human spirit's expression and supported capital punishment for unbelief.
In both 386 and 425, some of these sentiments opposing the humanities
were decreed law. The edict of 425, Codex Theodosianus 15.7.5, outlawed
the theater, the circus and festivals on sunday.
In Philip Schaff's exhaustive "History of the Christian Church" (1882),
Chapter 3, he notes (#170) regarding this:
"Chrysostom, at the end of the fourth century and
the beginning of the fifth, often complains that
the theatre is better attended than the church; so
down to this day the same is true in almost all
the large cities on the continent of Europe. Only
in England and the United States, under the
influence of Calvinism and Puritanism, are
the theatres closed on Sunday."
stone
That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call it Christian history.
Quite a few protestants have always contended that the Roman catholic church
is not a real Christian church and never was one. Real christian churches
don't torture people and steal their stuff.
When the Roman Emporer Constantine declared Rome to be Christian in the 4th
century, he mixed the ancient pagan Roman religion with the teachings of
Christianity, to try to make the new state religion acceptable to the pagan
Romans. What came out of this pagan/christian mixture is the Roman catholic
church. Real Christianity comes only from the New Testament and does not
have these pagan teachings mixed in.
Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of the
Christian Religion Cardinal Newman
p.359
Rome killed the true Christians in their inquisitions.
Western World wrote in message
<8801-41D...@storefull-3178.bay.webtv.net>...
Canon 1:
Canon 34:
Canon 59:
Canon 49:
Canon 50:
Deuteronomy 7:1-4:
Canon 40.
Canon 41.
Canon 62:
Canon 57:
Canon 21:
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Gregory Gadow
> Top posting:
>
> That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call it Christian history.
> Quite a few protestants have always contended that the Roman catholic church
> is not a real Christian church and never was one. Real christian churches
> don't torture people and steal their stuff.
We all know that Protestants never burned witches or heretics and never, ever engaged in legal
mumbo-jumbo that resulted in seizing property. Just ignore, please, the heretics burned at the
stake by great Protestant leaders like John Calvin, John Knox, King Henry VIII, King Edward VI,
Queen Elizabeth I and leaders in Protestant strongholds in what is now Germany and the
Netherlands.
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct,
his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and
disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is
absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell
the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly
necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when
he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both
base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of
the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or
wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about
him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth,
pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
President Theodore Roosevelt, editorial to the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
Western World
>That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call
>it Christian history. Quite a few protestants
>have always contended that the Roman
>catholic church is not a real Christian church
>and never was one. Real christian churches
>don't torture people and steal their stuff.
I disagree. The Bible sets a tone of religious intolerance and
violence. Christans were only following scripture when they killed
unbelievers. The OT calls for the death penalty for blashpemy and
unbelief. The Massachusetts Body of Liberties in 1641 (section 94)
actually made unbelief and blaspemy capital crimes. real Christians use
scripture. The fact is that Christianity is a very ugly and barbaric
religon that
All throughout the OT, the god calls for the destruction of pagan altars
and temples. And their natural Groves, too. Thats exactly what Chriatian
did from Constantine onward.
The NT sets the tone of religious intolerance by telling us that
unbelievers will be tortured in the lake of firte forever. Real
Christians were only following that tone when they burned people at the
stake. The mythologoical God of the Bible is an intolerant tyrant and
the believers were only following that God's tone.
In fact there was a Protestant inquisition after the reformation.
Calvinists alone burned over 100,000 at the stake in germany, Engoland
and Scotland. Calvin murdered dissewnters in his geneva theocracy.
Reformationists sacked and plundered catholic Churches. In Sweden, the
Protestant regiome confiscated all the Catholic churches in mush the
same way the early Christian emperors confiscated Pagan properties. In
some areas in Europe, it became illegal to say Mass. The punishment
could be death and that is in line with the Bible's capital punishments
for the wring religion. Its an unjust, immoral and violent God that is
in the Bible so we should expect it's believers to be just as violent
and immoral.
Its nonsense to say Catholics werent real Christians. Without catholics
and their tyranny, Christianity would have spintered into a thousand
sects and be just another one of the mystery cults with a "godman". Of
course, the only cuilt that was intolerant of others, which was why
several emperors decide that Christianity was uncivilizing and disrupted
the public order found in a long religiously diverse society.
The world would have been much better off without Christianity and its
to bad the violwence and repression worked to wipe out pagan beliefs in
a richly diverse world of late antiquity.
The Bible is clear that believing makes one a Christian regardless of
the trappings one surrounds one's self with. Besides. ritual has always
enhanced religious feelings.
Protestants have been no less intolerant than Catholics. Like Catholics,
they have a history of sexism, support for slavery, homophobia and
cruelty in disproportonate punishments.
In pagan times, worship meant singing and dancing. That really bothered
Ambrose and Crysostom. That is precisely what we see in Protestant
fundamentalism.
What pagans had was very human. Catholics incorporated it in many ways
because they simply couldnt stop paganism. It came to force to get the
job done. Protestants are no different in their religious intolerance
and their bigotry. The
My view is that religions cloud and sometimes poison the logical parts
of the mind.
I am going to be writing on the Protestant Inquiisition soon and will
post it here when done. I have spent the last year studying the 4th-6th
centuries and will be skipping to the Reformation and the present
fascist styled Protestantism that is attacking the principoles of
liberty.
Although I just might do Gregory first. What a scoundrel!
Pastor Dave
Mt. Everest, Tales_of_the_...@webtv.net
(Western World) pontificated:
>anti...@ineedhits-mail.com (stone) wrote:
>
>>That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call
>>it Christian history. Quite a few protestants
>>have always contended that the Roman
>>catholic church is not a real Christian church
>>and never was one. Real christian churches
>>don't torture people and steal their stuff.
>
>I disagree. The Bible sets a tone of religious intolerance and
>violence.
Intolerance? Yes. Nowhere does the Bible say to
respect false beliefs.
Violence? No. Nowhere does the Bible teach to
physically attack someone, just because of their
religion.
>Christans were only following scripture when they killed
>unbelievers.
No, they weren't. Nowhere does Scripture call
Christians to violence.
>The OT calls for the death penalty for blashpemy and
>unbelief.
Not true.
>The Massachusetts Body of Liberties in 1641 (section 94)
>actually made unbelief and blaspemy capital crimes. real Christians use
>scripture. The fact is that Christianity is a very ugly and barbaric
>religon that
What any person or people does, does not define
Christianity. It only demonstrates what a person or
people does. You are confused.
>All throughout the OT, the god calls for the destruction of pagan altars
>and temples. And their natural Groves, too. Thats exactly what Chriatian
>did from Constantine onward.
The OT calls for the destruction of these within the
camp of God. It does not call for destruction of them
in any other place that does not try to interfere with
the people of God.
<snip other examples of people acting in an unChristian
manner>
You will have to prove your claims above Biblically and
tell me, in your own words, why they are what you
claim. If you cannot do that, then you have no point.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
stone
Western World wrote in message
anti...@ineedhits-mail.com (stone) wrote:
>That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call
>it Christian history. Quite a few protestants
>have always contended that the Roman
>catholic church is not a real Christian church
>and never was one. Real christian churches
>don't torture people and steal their stuff.
I disagree. The Bible sets a tone of religious intolerance and
violence. Christans were only following scripture when they killed
unbelievers. The OT calls for the death penalty for blashpemy and
unbelief. The Massachusetts Body of Liberties in 1641 (section 94)
actually made unbelief and blaspemy capital crimes. real Christians use
scripture. The fact is that Christianity is a very ugly and barbaric
religon that
Here are some Christian teachings:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you;
Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said,
Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume
them, even as Elias did?
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what
manner of spirit ye are of.
Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to
save [them]. And they went to another village.
Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.
All throughout the OT, the god calls for the destruction of pagan altars
and temples. And their natural Groves, too. Thats exactly what Chriatian
did from Constantine onward.
Most of the laws of the Old Testament don't apply in the New Testament. In
the New Testament heretics are only to be rejected from the church. Killing
people that you think are heretics is an old testament law that does not
apply now. If you kill someone you think is a heretic now, in the New
Testament times, it is murder.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second
admonition reject;
In the old testament aduteresses were supposed to be stoned to death, but
Jesus refused to do that to an adulteress in the New Testament. He said let
he who is without sin among you cast the first stone. It is the same with
heretics. They are not supposed to be killed now. Any church organization
that claimed to be Christian, if they killed people they called heretics,
then they were disobeying the New Testament and committing murder.
Don't blame such deeds on the real Christians. Jesus said that many would
come to Him on the judgement day, who thought they were really serving Him,
and He is going to tell them to depart, He never knew them. MANY who think
they are Christians, are not real Christians.
The NT sets the tone of religious intolerance by telling us that
unbelievers will be tortured in the lake of firte forever. Real
Christians were only following that tone when they burned people at the
stake. The mythologoical God of the Bible is an intolerant tyrant and
the believers were only following that God's tone.
Real Christians did not do that. The Roman catholic heresy did most of that,
and they are not real Christians. MANY think they are real Christians and
are not real Christians.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
In fact there was a Protestant inquisition after the reformation.
Calvinists alone burned over 100,000 at the stake in germany, Engoland
and Scotland. Calvin murdered dissewnters in his geneva theocracy.
If there was, everyone of them that participated in that were committing
murder.
There are fals protestant churches, mormons, Jehovah's witness, to name a
couple.
Reformationists sacked and plundered catholic Churches. In Sweden, the
Protestant regiome confiscated all the Catholic churches in mush the
same way the early Christian emperors confiscated Pagan properties. In
some areas in Europe, it became illegal to say Mass. The punishment
could be death and that is in line with the Bible's capital punishments
for the wring religion. Its an unjust, immoral and violent God that is
in the Bible so we should expect it's believers to be just as violent
and immoral.
Real Christianity is a personal matter between you and God. You are not
saved by belonging to a church organization. A real Christian is someone
that believes in Jesus as the Lord, and has accepted Him as their Lord and
saviour and repented of practicing anything that the New Testament calls a
sin; he tries to follow the New Testament.
The king james version is the real Bible. There are fake bibles on the
market.
There are many protestants that are not real Christians. I will say that the
protestant churches have a higher percentage of real Christians in them,
because these churches follow the New Testament more closely. If early
protestant churches went into error killing heretics, and committing murder
thereby, that is their mistake. If any real Christians were in those
congregations they may have left those churches or opposed it. You don't get
saved by following any church hierarchy. Like I said, salvation is a
personal thing between you and God. If you see a church disobeying the New
Testament, then don't attend that church.
stone
anti...@ineedhits-mail.com (stone) wrote:
>That is Roman Catholic history. Don't call
>it Christian history. Quite a few protestants
>have always contended that the Roman
>catholic church is not a real Christian church
>and never was one. Real christian churches
>don't torture people and steal their stuff.
I disagree. The Bible sets a tone of religious intolerance and
violence. Christans were only following scripture when they killed
unbelievers. The OT calls for the death penalty for blashpemy and
unbelief. The Massachusetts Body of Liberties in 1641 (section 94)
actually made unbelief and blaspemy capital crimes. real Christians use
scripture. The fact is that Christianity is a very ugly and barbaric
religon that
Love your enemies. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
The Son of Man came not to destroy men's lives but to save them.
These are teachings of Jesus in the New Testament.
Real christians follow the New Testament and real Christians do not murder
people.
Old Testament law does not apply in the New Testament. Killing heretics is
in the Old Testament. In the New Testament heretics are just to be rejected
from the church.
Killing heretics in the New Testament times is murder.
[Capital punishment for the crime of murder seems to be the only acceptable
capital punishment in the New Testament.]
If a religious body did kill people, in New Testament times, for crimes
other than murder, they were in error and disobeying the scriptures.
Real Christianity is a personal relationship between you and God. Real
Christianity is not following any church hierarchy. Real Christians believe
Jesus is Lord and have accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour, and have
repented and are trying to not do anything that the New Testament calls a
sin. Real Christians also follow what the New Testament says. If any
protestant or catholic or orthodox church leadership is disobeying what is
in the New Testament, a real Christian should not follow that church
leadership.
All throughout the OT, the god calls for the destruction of pagan altars
and temples. And their natural Groves, too. Thats exactly what Chriatian
did from Constantine onward.
In Christianity, Christians are to preach to those heathens idol
worshippers, and if they reject the preaching of the gospel Christians are
supposed to just let them alone.
Jesus said of false religious people, "let them alone. They be blind leaders
of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind then both shall fall into a
ditch."
Killing idol worshippers was for OT Jews, not NT Christians.
The NT sets the tone of religious intolerance by telling us that
unbelievers will be tortured in the lake of firte forever. Real
Christians were only following that tone when they burned people at the
stake. The mythologoical God of the Bible is an intolerant tyrant and
the believers were only following that God's tone.
Unbelievers will be tortured in the Lake of fire forever. That is the
judgement of God against them. Real christians are only supposed to preach
to them and let them decide if they will accept or reject the Gospel. Real
Christians are not supposed to kill them or forceably prevent them from
worshipping false gods. If they want to worship false gods, after the gospel
is preached to them, then let them go to hell. They are not worthy to become
angels in heaven and not worthy to be saved. The preaching of Christianity
is a test to see who is worthy or not worthy. Vengeance is mine, I will
repay says the Lord. God is the one that is going to punish them. Christians
are not supposed to do it. Any Church that called itself Christian and
killed or punished idol worshippers because they refused to repent, was
disobeying the New Testament. God is the one who does the punishing.
Jesus said there are MANY who call themselves Christians and are not real
Christians.
On the Judgement day He will tell them to depart, He never knew them.
In fact there was a Protestant inquisition after the reformation.
Calvinists alone burned over 100,000 at the stake in germany, Engoland
and Scotland. Calvin murdered dissewnters in his geneva theocracy.
Reformationists sacked and plundered catholic Churches. In Sweden, the
Protestant regiome confiscated all the Catholic churches in mush the
same way the early Christian emperors confiscated Pagan properties. In
some areas in Europe, it became illegal to say Mass. The punishment
could be death and that is in line with the Bible's capital punishments
for the wring religion. Its an unjust, immoral and violent God that is
in the Bible so we should expect it's believers to be just as violent
and immoral.
If protestant churches did do that then they were in error. It is a sin to
steal people' goods or murder them. Like I said, there are many who think
they are Christians that are not real Christians. Any real Christians in
those churches probably either opposed that or left those churches. Real
Christianity is a personal relationship between you and God. It is not
following any church hierarchy whether protestant or catholic or othodox.
All Christianity is supposed to obey the New Testament. Any church
leadership that is disobeying the New Testament, Christians are not supposed
to follow that church leadership.
Its nonsense to say Catholics werent real Christians. Without catholics
and their tyranny, Christianity would have spintered into a thousand
sects and be just another one of the mystery cults with a "godman". Of
course, the only cuilt that was intolerant of others, which was why
several emperors decide that Christianity was uncivilizing and disrupted
the public order found in a long religiously diverse society.
Roman catholicism is pagan religious teachings mixed with the teachings of
Christianity.
Let a Cardinal tell you this himself:
Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of the
Christian Religion Cardinal Newman
p.359
Constantine mixed pagan Roman religion with Christianity, to try to make the
New state religion acceptable to the pagan roman. This pagan/christian
mixture is Roman catholicism. God does not accept pagan teachings.
Real Christianity is based on the New Testament without the pagan teachings
mixed in it.
The protestants follow the New Testament much more closely and there is a
much higher percentage of real Christians in the protestant churches.
The world would have been much better off without Christianity and its
to bad the violwence and repression worked to wipe out pagan beliefs in
a richly diverse world of late antiquity.
The world would be much better off with real Christianity. Roman Catholicism
is not real Christianity, neither is the Russian or Greek orthodox, or the
anglican.
It was prophicied in the Bible that false religious teachers would arise
among the Christians and many would follow their evil ways. And by reason of
them, true Christianity would be evil spoken of, as you are trying to do
now.
I repeat. The real Christians did not do that evil you are talking about.
False Christians did it, who think they are Christians but really aren't.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable
heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves
swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom
the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
The Bible is clear that believing makes one a Christian regardless of
the trappings one surrounds one's self with. Besides. ritual has always
enhanced religious feelings.
The New Testament says that to be a Christian you must believe and repent,
which means you must be trying to not do anything that the New Testament
calls a sin.
Question: How many catholics are atheists?
When you baptize little babies that don't believe anything like the catholic
church does, that person can grow to adulthood and never really believe
there is a God. The Roman catholic church has a large number of atheists or
unbelievers in it. There are members of the catholic clergy that are not
believers. Like I said, it isn't a real Christian church.
The New Testament says you are not supposed to baptize someone until he
believes, Acts 8.
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us." ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)
Apparently Pope Leo X was an atheist, to say such a thing. In the book FIFTY
YEARS IN THE CHURCH OF ROME, by Charles Chiniquy, it is written that there
were more than fifty popes that were atheists and infidels.
Reference from the book, THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, by Cardinals Boronius
and Fleury.
Pope Borgia, Alexander VI, who publicly lived as a married man with his
daughter and had a child by her.
Remember that pope that dug up the body of his predecessor and took it to
court. When the dead pope was found guilty of committing horrible crimes,
they cut off its head and dragged the body through the muddy streets of Rome
and through it into the Tiber river.
Remember that 12 popes had been raised to that high office by the influence
of the rich and influencial prostitutes of Rome.
Remember that young illigitimate pope John XI, the son of pope Sergius, who
was made a pope when he was only 12 years old, by the influence of his
prostitute mother Marosia. He became so sexually depraved that he was thrown
off the papal throne by the people of Rome.
Don't call that a real Christian church.
Much of catholic teaching is not from the Bible and it is
the product of centuries of changes. Most of these
changes resulted from the Roman Catholic Church's yielding to heathen
customs and practices that were
subsequently incorporated into Roman Catholic teachings and worship.
The following is a partial list of
heathen, unscriptural practices that became a part of Roman Catholic
dogma over a period of seventeen
centuries. Some of the dates given are approximate. In many cases,
these heresies were even debated for
years before being given the status of required beliefs. Although
some of these heresies are now being
questioned by many individuals inside and outside the Roman Catholic
Church, none have been officially
repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics
around the world (Source: "The Truth
About Roman Catholicism," September-October 1996, Foundation
magazine, pp. 5-16.):
1. Prayers for the dead -- 300 AD
2. Making the sign of the cross -- 300 AD
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints -- 375 A.D
4. Use of images in worship -- 375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration -- 394 AD
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God"
applied at Council of Ephesus -- 431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) -- 526 AD
8. Doctrine of Purgatory (Gregory I) -- 593 AD
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints -- 600 AD
10. Worship of cross, images & relics -- 786 AD
11. Canonization of dead saints -- 995 AD
12. Celibacy of priesthood -- 1079 AD
13. The Rosary -- 1090 AD
14. Indulgences -- 1190 AD
15. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) -- 1215 AD
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest -- 1215 AD
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) -- 1220 AD
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion -- 1414 AD
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma -- 1439 AD
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed -- 1439 AD
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of
Trent-- 1545 AD
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible -- 1546 AD
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary -- 1854 AD
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals,
proclaimed by the Vatican Council -- 1870 AD
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven
shortly after her death) -- 1950 AD
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Roman Catholic Church -- 1965 AD
I seem to be able to find something about the catholic church in the
first century writings, although it is not called the catholic church.
These scriptures here seem to apply to Roman catholicism:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even
as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring
upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of
whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth
not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous
wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse
things, to draw away disciples after them.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness
in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not
the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come
out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that
ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath
remembered her iniquities.
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
CONCERNING THE BIBLE CATHOLICISM TEACHES:
I. That tradition, apocryphal writings, dogma, etc., are to be
accepted on equal status with the Bible.
THE BIBLE TEACHES:
1.. That the Scriptures are alone sufficient (Deut. 4:2; Isa.
8:20). 2.. That the commandments of God are
made of no effect by the traditions of men (Matt. 15:3,6).
3.. That those who teach the commandments of men as doctrine
worship God in vain (Matt. 15:9).
4.. That there is no redemption in corruptible things received by
tradition from the fathers (I Peter 1:18).
5.. That the Scripture is sufficient to make the man of God perfect
(II Tim. 3:15-17).
6.. That there is to be no addition to, or subtraction from the
Word of God (Rev. 22:18,19).
II. That the Catholic Church only has the right to interpret the
Scriptures, they may not change them and they may not teach any dogma
that contradicts the Scriptures, - which they have already done.
Levy Oates
<newsgr...@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>Violence? No. Nowhere does the Bible teach to
>physically attack someone, just because of their
>religion.
Deuteronomy 4:3 ...for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath
destroyed them from among you.
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun,
or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently,
and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought
in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed
that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone
them with stones, till they die.
---------
Archdeacon Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
Pastor Dave
Mt. Everest, Levy Oates <levy_...@hotmail.com>
pontificated:
>On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:30:00 GMT, Pastor Dave
><newsgr...@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Violence? No. Nowhere does the Bible teach to
>>physically attack someone, just because of their
>>religion.
>
>Deuteronomy 4:3 ...for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath
>destroyed them from among you.
>
>17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun,
>or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
>17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently,
>and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought
>in Israel:
>17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed
>that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone
>them with stones, till they die.
You should have left the statement by the poster in. I
didn't think you would.
Western World
blather superficially about love, is that it comdemns all to hellfire
tortures that don't believe correctly. I question the values of anyone
who falls for these dictatorial threats
There is no more violent threat ever concieved by humanity.
This should make most people question the ethical values of this
religion. It should be rejected as barbaric and intolerant
Sure, if one doesnt like the values of freedom, we can blabber all we
like about false religions. But these are the facts: religion is a
supernatural affair: there are thousands of religions: nothing of any of
them is in evidence.
Let us choose what we know works in the real world, not what some
ignorant tribal shaman concocted.
It is a matter of the ethics.
Western World
Blog link, too...:-))
My site should be up Tuesday or Wednesday.
Pastor Dave
Mt. Everest, Tales_of_the_...@webtv.net
(Western World) pontificated:
>The great indictment of Christianity, no matter how much it's scriptures
>blather superficially about love, is that it comdemns all to hellfire
>tortures that don't believe correctly. I question the values of anyone
>who falls for these dictatorial threats
>
>There is no more violent threat ever concieved by humanity.
Of course not. All atheist countries had no violence.
John
In article <fhr7u0pm10tg8vki2...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <newsgr...@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:13:52 -0500, while scaling the
> Mt. Everest, Tales_of_the_...@webtv.net
> (Western World) pontificated:
>
> >The great indictment of Christianity, no matter how much it's scriptures
> >blather superficially about love, is that it comdemns all to hellfire
> >tortures that don't believe correctly. I question the values of anyone
> >who falls for these dictatorial threats
> >
> >There is no more violent threat ever concieved by humanity.
>
> Of course not. All atheist countries had no violence.
--
Al Klein
<newsgr...@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> said in alt.atheism:
>On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:13:52 -0500, while scaling the
>Mt. Everest, Tales_of_the_...@webtv.net
>(Western World) pontificated:
>
>>The great indictment of Christianity, no matter how much it's scriptures
>>blather superficially about love, is that it comdemns all to hellfire
>>tortures that don't believe correctly. I question the values of anyone
>>who falls for these dictatorial threats
>>
>>There is no more violent threat ever concieved by humanity.
>
>Of course not. All atheist countries had no violence.
Due to atheism? Of course not.
(Do you really believe that all the violence in Christian countries is
due to non-belief in Cthulu? Dolt!)
--
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is human
concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind cannot
begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
Al Klein
in alt.atheism:
>In article <fhr7u0pm10tg8vki2...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <newsgr...@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> Of course not. All atheist countries had no violence.
>Why do you reject the rapture?
Because it's a Christian concept, and Dave rejects real Christianity.
(As do most who call themselves "Christian".)
--
"The study of geology is ok-But not when it contradicts what is laid
out in the Bible that the earth is more than 10,000 years old."
- Doug Lee, Creationist