Re: BLASPHEMY - Something to think about
Pastor Frank
>> THESE FACTS ??
>>
>> I SURE DIDN ' T KNOW TILL NOW ?
>> Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!
>> Make a personal reflection about this.....
>> Very interesting, read until the end.....
>> It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):
>> "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth,
>> that shall he also reap."
>> Here are some men and women who mocked God :
>>
>> John Lennon (Singer):
>> Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine,
>> he said:
>> "Christianity will end, it will disappear, I do not have to argue
>> about that, I am certain.
>> Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple.
>> Today we are more famous than Him" (1966).
>> Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus
>> Christ, was shot six times.
>>
>> Tancredo Neves ( President of Brazil ):
>> During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes
>> from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.
>> Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made
>> President, then he died.
>>
>> Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
>> During a show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ),
>> while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air
>> and said:
>> "God, that's for you."
>> He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.?
>>
>> The Man who built the Titanic?
>> After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe
>> the Titanic would be?
>> With an ironic tone he said:
>> "Not even God can sink it!"
>> The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic!
>>
>> Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
>> She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.
>> He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her.
>> After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said:
>> "I don't need your Jesus."
>> A week later, she was found dead in her apartment.
>>
>> Bon Scott (Singer)
>> The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC.
>> On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
>> "Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell."
>> On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been
>> choked by his own vomit.
>>
>> Campinas ( in 2005 )
>> In Campinas , Brazil , a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a
>> friend.....
>> The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the
>> drunkenness of her friends and
>> she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated
>> in the car:
>> "My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You.."
>> She responded: "Only If He (God) travels in the trunk, cause inside
>> here.....It's already full."
>> Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal
>> accident, everyone had died in the car could not be recognized what
>> type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.
>> The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact.
>> To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was
>> broken!
>>
>> Christine Hewitt
>> (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the Bible ( Word of
>> God ) was the worst book ever written.
>> In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor
>> vehicle.
>>
>> Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other
>> name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.
>> Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still
>> ALIVE!
>>
>> "JESUS"
>>
>>
>> P.S: If it was a joke, you would have sent it to everyone. So are
>> you going to have courage to send this?
>> I have done my part, Jesus said,
>> "If you are embarrassed about me, I will also be embarrassed about
>> you before my father."
>> You are my 8 in 8 seconds.
>>
>> I am not breaking this.
>>
>> No way!
>>
>> I'M TOLD THIS WORKS!!!!!
>>
>> Bishop T.D. Jakes 8 Second Prayer.
>>
>> Just repeat this prayer and see how God moves!!
>>
>> "Lord, I love you and I need you, come into my heart, and bless me,
>> my family, my home, and my friends, in Jesus' name. Amen."
>>
>> Pass this message to 8 people ( EXCEPT YOU AND ME ).
>>
>> You will receive a miracle tomorrow.
>>
>> I hope that you don't ignore and let God bless
>>
>> you!
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>>
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>>
>> Test your Star IQ Play now!
>
Thom Madura
>>> Subject: Fw: Hmmm Interesting
>>> THESE FACTS ??
There are no FACTS in the bible -other than the names of cities and places.
monkfish
How about the messages?
--
monkfish
* The followup-to header is set to alt.christnet.theology.
** alt.atheism is removed from the groups header.
Adonis
"Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4846aa51$0$11636$607e...@cv.net...
system falls apart.
Thom Madura
Not my belief system - I don't believe in it.
Pastor Frank
news:jPednTv3aOSIptrV...@comcast.com...
of the flesh as you suppose. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit
Pastor Frank
Christ urging us to be good, like our parents wanted us to be. Only atheist
Dialectic Materialists consider facts limited to things made of atoms.
Adonis
"Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:ee4f1$484c3b9c$d1d89a4e$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
Fables or the Iliad instead? The concepts are not spiritual in nature but human
fantasy. The fact is by your recent posts you have defined your religious
beliefs to Greek Mythology status. By admitting that the bible is not a book of
fact, you have no basis for salvation. According to the bible salvation is only
available because this dude you call Jesus lived a perfect life according to
gods law and became the final sin sacrifice. By your own posts the bible is not
a book of fact, that event did not happen, you have no salvation. Everything
written in first person in the bible can not be looked as anything but myth and
legend. Because of that any religious organization has zero credibility.
Adonis
Facts about good and bad behavior? You say the book is not a book of fact., it's
a book of poetry. Jesus was not a real person any more than Paul Bunyan was.
Frank you sound confused.
default
Congrats! you've provoked Frank to his ultimate fall-back position.
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monkfish
Good poetry is usually much closer to the truth
than all the facts physicalists can think of.
monkfish
You are grossly misinformed.
monkfish
>
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:10:24 -0400, "Adonis" <a...@aol.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>news:d70aa$484c3b9a$d1d89a4e$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>> "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4846aa51$0$11636$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Fw: Hmmm Interesting
>>>>>>> THESE FACTS ??
>>>>
>>>> There are no FACTS in the bible -other than the names of cities and
>>>> places.
>>>>
>>> There are lots of facts about what is good and bad behaviour, with
>>> Jesus
>>> Christ urging us to be good, like our parents wanted us to be. Only
>>> atheist Dialectic Materialists consider facts limited to things made of
>>> atoms.
>>
>>Facts about good and bad behavior? You say the book is not a book of
>>fact., it's a book of poetry. Jesus was not a real person any more than
>>Paul Bunyan was. Frank you sound confused.
>
> Congrats! you've provoked Frank to his ultimate fall-back position.
Some poetry is truer than scientific facts.
Pastor Frank
news:ou6dnSbDzoe5xdHV...@comcast.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:ee4f1$484c3b9c$d1d89a4e$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> which is born of the Spirit is spirit
>
> Why quote from a source that you say is only poetry?
expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
>
> There is nothing "only" about poetry. Values often can only be
> expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
Yes. One can learn from these parables.
For example, one can learn that killing one's son is a good way to show
love. God killed his only begotten son becuae he so loved the world.
Abraham was all set to kill his only son because he so loved God.
Additionally, lying is OK. Abraham lied to Isaac on the way to the
killing spot. But it was a Good Thing that Abraham was doing, so I learn
that in the proper circumstances, lying is how we can serve God.
From the story of the Jews leaving Egypt, I learn that killing little
innocent babies can be a Good Thing. I learn that hte ends justify the
means: In order to accomplish a goal, like freeing the Jews, one can
resort to baby klilling, and it is justified. The ends justify the means.
It is also OK to kill people if they disobey you, and look over
thier shoulders. He killed Lot's wife to teach us this moral position.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
monkfish
> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>
>> There is nothing "only" about poetry. Values often can only be
>> expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
>
> Yes. One can learn from these parables.
>
> For example, one can learn that killing one's son is a good way to show
> love. God killed his only begotten son becuae he so loved the world.
> Abraham was all set to kill his only son because he so loved God.
>
> Additionally, lying is OK. Abraham lied to Isaac on the way to the
> killing spot. But it was a Good Thing that Abraham was doing, so I learn
> that in the proper circumstances, lying is how we can serve God.
>
> From the story of the Jews leaving Egypt, I learn that killing little
> innocent babies can be a Good Thing. I learn that hte ends justify the
> means: In order to accomplish a goal, like freeing the Jews, one can
> resort to baby klilling, and it is justified. The ends justify the means.
>
> It is also OK to kill people if they disobey you, and look over
> thier shoulders. He killed Lot's wife to teach us this moral position.
Glad to see that you are thinking about ethics.
But you definitely misunderstood those stories.
You really should read the bible to the end and in context.
Culture changes a lot in several thousand years.
You really should dig much deeper than the rules on the surface.
You should at least look for the underlying policies.
Do you really think the proper way to obey God would
stay the same for several thousand years for all aspects of life?
Dubh Ghall
So can you give us an example of these values which can only be expressed by poetry?
Pastor Frank
news:1213011115_6316@isp.n...
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:10:24 -0400, "Adonis" <a...@aol.net> wrote:
>>"Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>news:d70aa$484c3b9a$d1d89a4e$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>> "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4846aa51$0$11636$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Fw: Hmmm Interesting
>>>>>>> THESE FACTS ??
>>>>
>>>> There are no FACTS in the bible -other than the names of cities and
>>>> places.
>>>>
>>> There are lots of facts about what is good and bad behaviour, with
>>> Jesus
>>> Christ urging us to be good, like our parents wanted us to be. Only
>>> atheist
>>> Dialectic Materialists consider facts limited to things made of atoms.
>>
>>Facts about good and bad behavior? You say the book is not a book of
>>fact., it's
>>a book of poetry. Jesus was not a real person any more than Paul Bunyan
>>was.
>>Frank you sound confused.
>
> Congrats! you've provoked Frank to his ultimate fall-back position.
>
person"? Don't disappoint us, we enjoy atheists using logic and reason for
all to see.
Adonis
than a movie sequel.
Dubh Ghall
More dishonesty Frank?
You know that it does not work that way.
We do not need to disprove your beliefs, without empirical evidence, they are just wind
and piss.
"Ooh Look, an atheist has said 'only' again".
> Don't disappoint us, we enjoy atheists using logic and reason for
>all to see.
And yet another lie, eh, Frank?
Pastor Frank
news:c92d4b5b-a2b0-46a8...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Bhagavad Gita.
>
I certainly don't have any problems with the odyssey or the
Bhagavad-Gita, I love them both. Why do you ask? Read up on the Bhakti in
the Bhagavad-Gita and you will know what I'm talking about.
Pastor Frank
news:g2rao2$lhr$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>
>> There is nothing "only" about poetry. Values often can only be
>> expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
>
> Yes. One can learn from these parables.
> For example, one can learn that killing one's son is a good way to show
> love. God killed his only begotten son becuae he so loved the world.
> Abraham was all set to kill his only son because he so loved God.
> Additionally, lying is OK. Abraham lied to Isaac on the way to the
> killing spot. But it was a Good Thing that Abraham was doing, so I learn
> that in the proper circumstances, lying is how we can serve God.
> From the story of the Jews leaving Egypt, I learn that killing little
> innocent babies can be a Good Thing. I learn that hte ends justify the
> means: In order to accomplish a goal, like freeing the Jews, one can
> resort to baby klilling, and it is justified. The ends justify the means.
> It is also OK to kill people if they disobey you, and look over
> thier shoulders. He killed Lot's wife to teach us this moral position.
>
legally convicted adulteress from being stoned. Or are you trying to use
Judaism to trash Christianity? Perhaps you are an Anti-Semite?
Dubh Ghall
><EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>news:g2rao2$lhr$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is nothing "only" about poetry. Values often can only be
>>> expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
>>
>> Yes. One can learn from these parables.
>> For example, one can learn that killing one's son is a good way to show
>> love. God killed his only begotten son becuae he so loved the world.
>> Abraham was all set to kill his only son because he so loved God.
>> Additionally, lying is OK. Abraham lied to Isaac on the way to the
>> killing spot. But it was a Good Thing that Abraham was doing, so I learn
>> that in the proper circumstances, lying is how we can serve God.
>> From the story of the Jews leaving Egypt, I learn that killing little
>> innocent babies can be a Good Thing. I learn that hte ends justify the
>> means: In order to accomplish a goal, like freeing the Jews, one can
>> resort to baby klilling, and it is justified. The ends justify the means.
>> It is also OK to kill people if they disobey you, and look over
>> thier shoulders. He killed Lot's wife to teach us this moral position.
>>
> When did Christ command anyone to be killed?
LUKE 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over
them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Adonis
are not "values to live by" or go about quoting from them with the fervor you
like to quote from the bible. Point is the bible is not what you to make it out
to be. Yes there are some good things in it on human relations, a very small
part but it is in there. It most certainly not a "divine revelation" any more
than the Koran or the Odyssey. It is just a book of rehashed stories, copies.
Adonis
Many Christian organizations teach that Jesus is the god of the OT.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> >
> When did Christ command anyone to be killed?
It was his Dad, as you know. The one you call Love.
monkfish
> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> When did Christ command anyone to be killed?
>
> It was his Dad, as you know. The one you call Love.
You are no God.
Don't do as God does;
just do as God says.
You really should read the Bible
to the end and in context.
Pastor Frank
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:5dcd2$4854cd73$d1d89a5e$23...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> person"? Don't disappoint us, we enjoy atheists using logic and reason
>> for all to see.
>
> Jesus and god are copies of ancient gods that came before. They are
> nothing more than a movie sequel.
"nothing more than"? But I'm sure all of us praise the Lord for your strong
belief in "ancient gods" which aren't "mere copies". It show you are a
believer after all, much like the rest of us in our pristine spiritual NGs.
Adonis
All you have is your bible, you said it is not a book of fact. That alone is
enough for me to say you do not have any thing that is worth worship. Gods
involvement in the earth and it's inhabitants? None there either. The creation
story? Fairy tale. Virgin birth? Fairy tale. Death and resurrection? Fairy tale.
Raising the dead? Fairy tale. Manna? Fairy tale.Walking on water? Fairy tale.
Changing water to wine? Fairy tale. Just like Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras just to
name a few.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> LOL What kind of evidence is that, that Jesus wasn't a "real person" or
> "nothing more than"?
"Nothing more than a person" is the default position. Those who would
prove otherwise have the burden of going forward.
monkfish
How about the message of Jesus?
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:v7ednRRq57KSLsTV...@ptd.net...
Thom Madura
No - it clearly show that he does not believe that the christ was
anything other than another heretical false "prophet" - who made a lot
of claims - but reality has proven he can't back them up.
monkfish
Do you even know what it is?
Thom Madura
THe message was made up by humans on earth - has nothing to do with your
christ - who apparently never wrote down anything.
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
monkfish
What kind of statement is the message?
monkfish
What makes you think you know what God is?
Thom Madura
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions today, but the
same argument. It failed then it fails now.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> > What makes you think you know what God is?
> >
> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF paradox,
> not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions today, but the
> same argument. It failed then it fails now.
He is saying, implicitly, that nobody knows what God is. However, he is
too clever by half: He also implicitly admits that he worships something
despite not knowing what it is.
From what I have seen in these newsgroups, the most ardent xtins here are
people who have trouble thinking clearly.
monkfish
Is it factual, normative, or something else?
monkfish
Is it possible for God to exist?
monkfish
> In alt.religion.christian Adonis <a...@aol.aol> wrote:
>
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>
>> > What makes you think you know what God is?
>> >
>> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF
>> paradox, not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions
>> today, but the same argument. It failed then it fails now.
>
> He is saying, implicitly, that nobody knows what God is. However, he is
> too clever by half: He also implicitly admits that he worships something
> despite not knowing what it is.
>
> From what I have seen in these newsgroups, the most ardent xtins here are
> people who have trouble thinking clearly.
Do you know what energy is?
Thom Madura
You have not been able to prove it.
Thom Madura
> EskW...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>
>> In alt.religion.christian Adonis <a...@aol.aol> wrote:
>>
>>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>>>> What makes you think you know what God is?
>>>>
>>> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF
>>> paradox, not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions
>>> today, but the same argument. It failed then it fails now.
>> He is saying, implicitly, that nobody knows what God is. However, he is
>> too clever by half: He also implicitly admits that he worships something
>> despite not knowing what it is.
>>
>> From what I have seen in these newsgroups, the most ardent xtins here are
>> people who have trouble thinking clearly.
>
>
> Do you know what energy is?
>
>
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
monkfish
Is it possible for God to be real?
monkfish
Do you even know how many forms of energy there are?
monkfish
God is the ultimate point of reference.
Is it possible for it to exist?
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
monkfish
Why don't you define definition first?
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Thom Madura
think you cannot read.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> monkfish wrote:
> > Adonis wrote:
> >>>> Define god and I'll answer you with a yes or no.
> >>>
> >>> God is the ultimate point of reference.
> >>> Is it possible for it to exist?
> >>>
> >> That is not a definition. Even Kaufman knows that.
> >
> >
> > Why don't you define definition first?
> >
> >
> Another simple english word from the dictionary - I am beginning to
> think you cannot read.
Why do you interact with him? He has nothing to say. That much is
obvious. He starts down paths with his questions, and then is totally
unable to go more than a half-step before abandoning the topic. He has no
profound insights whatsoever.
monkfish
Does that mean you want me to definw things
without defining definition?
Do you really think
God can be defined by humans?
monkfish
> In alt.religion.christian Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> monkfish wrote:
>> > Adonis wrote:
>
>> >>>> Define god and I'll answer you with a yes or no.
>> >>>
>> >>> God is the ultimate point of reference.
>> >>> Is it possible for it to exist?
>> >>>
>> >> That is not a definition. Even Kaufman knows that.
>> >
>> >
>> > Why don't you define definition first?
>> >
>> >
>> Another simple english word from the dictionary - I am beginning to
>> think you cannot read.
>
> Why do you interact with him? He has nothing to say. That much is
> obvious. He starts down paths with his questions, and then is totally
> unable to go more than a half-step before abandoning the topic. He has no
> profound insights whatsoever.
Yes, not much more than "God is love."
Do you have any idea what kind of statement that is?
Is it factual, normative, or something else?
monkfish
Is energy prior to time and space by definition?
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Define your statement.
> Do you really think
> God can be defined by humans?
>
Answer me this, does god know all things?
Did god create the earth and life?
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the events they are
supposed to represent?
I'll stop here, you answer these and well move forward.
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> EskW...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>
>> In alt.religion.christian Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> monkfish wrote:
>>> > Adonis wrote:
>>
>>> >>>> Define god and I'll answer you with a yes or no.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> God is the ultimate point of reference.
>>> >>> Is it possible for it to exist?
>>> >>>
>>> >> That is not a definition. Even Kaufman knows that.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Why don't you define definition first?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> Another simple english word from the dictionary - I am beginning to
>>> think you cannot read.
>>
>> Why do you interact with him? He has nothing to say. That much is
>> obvious. He starts down paths with his questions, and then is totally
>> unable to go more than a half-step before abandoning the topic. He has no
>> profound insights whatsoever.
>
>
> Yes, not much more than "God is love."
> Do you have any idea what kind of statement that is?
> Is it factual, normative, or something else?
>
Did god create the earth and life?
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the events they are
supposed to represent?
I'll stop here, you answer these and well move forward.
>
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> Answer me this, does god know all things?
Did god create the earth and life?
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the events they are
supposed to represent?
I'll stop here, you answer these and well move forward.
>
Pastor Frank
news:DfGdnft_cLOK78TV...@comcast.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:ec20e$48591008$d1d89a65$16...@PRIMUS.CA...
>> "Adonis" <a...@aol.net> wrote in message
>> news:lMydnez6svD-Z8nV...@comcast.com...
>>> "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:5dcd2$4854cd73$d1d89a5e$23...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>>>
>>>> You guys of course have the evidence Jesus Christ was not a "real
>>>> person"? Don't disappoint us, we enjoy atheists using logic and reason
>>>> for all to see.
>>>
>>> Jesus and god are copies of ancient gods that came before. They are
>>> nothing more than a movie sequel.
>> LOL What kind of evidence is that, that Jesus wasn't a "real person"
>> or "nothing more than"? But I'm sure all of us praise the Lord for your
>> strong belief in "ancient gods" which aren't "mere copies". It show you
>> are a believer after all, much like the rest of us in our pristine
>> spiritual NGs.
>
> All you have is your bible, you said it is not a book of fact. That alone
> is enough for me to say you do not have any thing that is worth worship.
> Gods involvement in the earth and it's inhabitants? None there either. The
> creation story? Fairy tale. Virgin birth? Fairy tale. Death and
> resurrection? Fairy tale. Raising the dead? Fairy tale. Manna? Fairy
> tale.Walking on water? Fairy tale. Changing water to wine? Fairy tale.
> Just like Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras just to name a few.
poetry and "fairy tales" have traditionally been used to transmit the
accumulated wisdom of civilizations. Ever thought of, that you might be
perceptually and philosophically challenged, and therefore unable to find
any meaning in those transmission vectors?
Ask Jesus to open your eyes, and you WILL see!!
Pastor Frank
news:g3c4b2$ijn$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>
>> LOL What kind of evidence is that, that Jesus wasn't a "real person"
>> or
>> "nothing more than"?
>
> prove otherwise have the burden of going forward.
>
You fail to tell us what would be "more than a person"? What are you
looking for?
Thom Madura
Sorry Frank - your book is a bunch of nothing.
Wisdom is now taught in public schools - secular schools that teach the
truth - not religion. Your book does not teach wisdom - it teaches
nonsense - and no longer has a place in modern education.
Our Text books are compiled by learned men in their fields - and refer
to real material for verification. Your book was written by authors who
wouldn't even identify themselves - and is based on myth and legend at
best, it Has no source material to prove anything of a religious nature.
Ask jesus - and he won't open your eyes - he will do just the opposite.
You will be dead and still not get an answer.
Give a man a fish - and he will get one meal
Teach a man to fish - and he can feed himslef for a lifetime
Tell a man to pray to your christ for a fish - and he will starve to death.
THe question is - are YOU still waiting for your god to provide a fish -
or did you let a human catch one for you? And if you did - isn't that
hypocracy?
Adonis
You can "put your book" against any body you wish. Myths, legends and fairy
tales are not accumulated wisdom. Early man thought a god carried the earth on
it's shoulders, are you going to say that is transmitting wisdom? Not long ago
people with mental health issues were thought to be witches or demon controlled,
is that transmitting wisdom? It was taught that the sun and other celestial
bodies orbited the earth, that the earth was the center of the universe. Is that
transmitting wisdom? They are myths! I do not need a mythical person to
understand that.
Adonis
Unless you have a comprehension problem "nothing more than a person" would be
some one who is unable to raise the dead, calm storms at sea like your friend
jesus.
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> <EskW...@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
> news:g3c4b2$ijn$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > In alt.religion.christian Pastor Frank <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> LOL What kind of evidence is that, that Jesus wasn't a "real person"
> >> or
> >> "nothing more than"?
> >
> > "Nothing more than a person" is the default position. Those who would
> > prove otherwise have the burden of going forward.
> >
> You fail to tell us what would be "more than a person"? What are you
> looking for?
"More than a person" might equal a God, conceived by a virgin, who became
a zombie after having been killed.
Or anything other than "nothing more than a person".
Those who submit fantastical claims have a large burden of proof, if they
would like anyone to believe their claims.
Pastor Frank
news:485a4bef$0$7352$607e...@cv.net...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Dubh Ghall" <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
>> news:92u954trs0p0hcv21...@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:22:33 +0100, "A Watcher" <awat...@word.com>
>>>> news:g2rao2$lhr$1...@reader2.panix.com...>>>>>> There is nothing "only" about poetry. Values often can only be
>>>>>> expressed by poetry, and religion is about values and principles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. One can learn from these parables.
>>>>> For example, one can learn that killing one's son is a good way to
>>>>> show
>>>>> love. God killed his only begotten son becuae he so loved the world.
>>>>> Abraham was all set to kill his only son because he so loved God.
>>>>> Additionally, lying is OK. Abraham lied to Isaac on the way to the
>>>>> killing spot. But it was a Good Thing that Abraham was doing, so I
>>>>> learn
>>>>> that in the proper circumstances, lying is how we can serve God.
>>>>
>>>> Where did Abraham lie to Isaac?
>>>
>>> That depends on how you define a lie; Doesn't it?
>>> "Come on Kid, we are going to make a sacrifice to God", might well be
>>> close to the truth,
>>> but as Isaac, is going to be the sacrifice, then he is not going to be
>>> *making* a
>>> sacrifice. He is not giving his life, he is having it stolen from him.
>>> It is therefore dishonest, i.e, a lie, to allow him to believe
>>> otherwise, and it is
>>> *definitely* dishonest to say "we".
>>> Abraham lied, lies of omission and lies of misdirection.
>>> Sometimes the truth is the biggest lie of all.
>>
>> You need to discuss Judaism with your Rabbi. Here we only go by what
>> Jesus said and did.
>
> You have absolutely not way to determine what your christ said. Most of
> the quotes of the christ in the bible were written by Paul and Luke -
> neither of which ever even saw the christ when he was alive.
> Your christ never left and written word - not one - no letters, no
> epistles, no sermons, no notes, no nothing. THere also exists no Second
> person (Eye witness) SOURCE material to say what the christ said.
> Apparently the alimighty all knowing really intelligent god never bothered
> to have someone follow him around and write these things down. Dumb! He
> should have at least has a tape recorder !!!!
>
I'm glad for your confession of faith in Jesus Christ, ...as soon as He
is verified as having existed. It's progress of sorts, and one day you will
be a staunch believer to be proud of, I'm sure.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Adonis" <a...@aol.net> wrote in message
>> news:lMydnez6svD-Z8nV...@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> You guys of course have the evidence Jesus Christ was not a "real
>>>> person"? Don't disappoint us, we enjoy atheists using logic and reason
>>>> for all to see.
>>>
>>> Jesus and god are copies of ancient gods that came before. They are
>>> nothing more than a movie sequel.
>>
>> strong belief in "ancient gods" which aren't "mere copies". It show you
>> are a believer after all, much like the rest of us in our pristine
>> spiritual NGs.
>
> other than another heretical false "prophet" - who made a lot of claims -
> but reality has proven he can't back them up.
>
He "backed up" His principles without faltering to the death on the
cross of Calvary. How do you back up your principles, and at which point
will you cave in and sell out?
Dubh Ghall
>Well, I will put my book up against yours anytime. Myths, legends,
>poetry and "fairy tales" have traditionally been used to transmit the
>accumulated wisdom of civilizations.
Myths, legends, superstition, and faery tales, are not wisdom, they are stories told by
ignorant people, entertain them selves, and to explain to them selves, the things which
they couldn't understand.
Poetry, is just another way of telling a story. It's real value of poetry, like that of
music and song, is that carefully chosen words, and varying tempo, can set the emotional
scene, without recourse to long winded descriptions.
Also, that tempo, often makes memorising the poem, so much easier to remember, and recite.
Dubh Ghall
The thing which you describe.
torresD
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> Adonis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How about the message of Jesus?
>>>>
>>> What message or do you mean legend?
>>
>> Do you even know what it is?
>
>
Feeling inundated by hypocrites, AKA Satan's minions, who profess Christ
yet do the opposite from what Christ preached? Cynicism and paranoia are
the rewards of prolonged atheism.
> THe message was made up by humans on earth - has nothing to do with your
> christ - who apparently never wrote down anything.
>
Why are you stating these truisms, as if you know someone who actually
believes, that scripture was not written by humans on this earth, but
somehow materialized magically, as if coming from up on high? Perhaps you
have been listening to Mormons regarding their golden tablets too long? LOL
You sure harbour some weird and redundant disbeliefs, Pal!!
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> Adonis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think you know what God is?
>>>
>>> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF
>>> paradox, not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions
>>> today, but the same argument. It failed then it fails now.
>>
>> Is it possible for God to exist?
>
>
What proof do expect from people whose "God is love"? I bet you want
them to send you all their money to prove their love for you, or perhaps
sacrifice their lives for you, like Jesus did for us?
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
therefore know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord
and Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
And no, we won't send you all our money as "objective, verifiable
evidence", to prove our love for you. That's what you are after, aren't you?
You will just have to believe us, that we answer your posts because we
love you in the Lord and that this loving action evidences our God, who
demonstrates His love for you through us who love Him.
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> EskW...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>>> In alt.religion.christian Adonis <a...@aol.aol> wrote:
>>>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF
>>>> paradox, not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions
>>>> today, but the same argument. It failed then it fails now.
>>> too clever by half: He also implicitly admits that he worships
>>> something
>>> despite not knowing what it is.
>>>
>>> From what I have seen in these newsgroups, the most ardent xtins here
>>> are
>>> people who have trouble thinking clearly.
>>
Tell us how more and "clearer thinking" will motivate us to do what
Christ tells us to do below. Or does your religion require you to be non
sequitur all the time? Our religion is clear on what we need to do. See
below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command..."
Thom Madura
Again- the bible is NOT a source of truth. It is an unsupportable piece
of propaganda of religion - nothing more.
The actions of religon over the centuries have clearly labeled it a hoax.
I do not have to believe any of it or YOU.
Dubh Ghall
>"Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:485bf9b1$0$7347$607e...@cv.net...
>> monkfish wrote:
>>> Adonis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What makes you think you know what God is?
>>>>
>>>> What makes YOU think you know IF god exists? The Greeks tried the IF
>>>> paradox, not with all the fancy names "intellectuals" give IF questions
>>>> today, but the same argument. It failed then it fails now.
>>>
>>> Is it possible for God to exist?
>>
>> You have not been able to prove it.
>>
> What proof do expect from people whose "God is love"?
Kindly words and deeds, consideration for others, that sort of thing.
>I bet you want them to send you all their money to prove their love for you, or perhaps
>sacrifice their lives for you,
Would a man who held love, above all things, make such an accusation?
Pastor Frank
> Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>> You have not been able to prove it.
>
>
You keep dodging the answer to the question I asked you so many times,
Thom: What "proof" would you accept, that our Christian "God is love" (1
John 4:8,16)?
Pastor Frank
> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>>
>> God is the ultimate point of reference.
>> Is it possible for it to exist?
>
> That is not a definition. Even Kaufman knows that.
>
Christian isn't flesh and bones, but "a Spirit" (Jesus in Jn:4:24), such as
in "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) becoming fully manifested in Jesus Christ
Adonis
you must show it is real and not virtual.
Adonis
> "Adonis" <a...@aol.aol> wrote in message
> news:5_-dnW-NRMxzZ8HV...@comcast.com...
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> news:eZGdnTi8KadTwcHV...@ptd.net...
>>>
>>> God is the ultimate point of reference.
>>> Is it possible for it to exist?
>>
>> That is not a definition. Even Kaufman knows that.
>>
> For Christians only the definition of Christ is valid,
And what is that definition? Who validated it and how?
>therefore our Christian isn't flesh and bones, but "a Spirit" (Jesus in
>Jn:4:24), such as in "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) becoming fully manifested in
>Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
>therefore know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord and
>Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
> Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
> love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
> in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
>
>
What love and care has been manifested by this god/man and the god/spirit?
Thom Madura
I have not dodged the question- there must be something wrong with your
date or time on your computer - these messages are coming in - in date
order the day before - and they don't show up on my listing most of the
time.
You cannot prove your god is "love" without proving your god exists -
without question to all.
Tell your god to address the United Nations on peace - on a worldwide
broadcast - and have him cure hunger in the world while he is at it to
prove he has power beyond talk. He still has his human body - so that
should not be a problem.
monkfish
For that, you should wait for His second coming.
Can you love something that does not exist yet?
bob young
monkfish wrote:
>
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> >> news:vrydnbm66PuDxMHV...@ptd.net...
> >>> Thom Madura wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> You have not been able to prove it.
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible for God to be real?
> >>>
> >> You keep dodging the answer to the question I asked you so many
> >> times, Thom: What "proof" would you accept, that our Christian "God is
> >> love" (1 John 4:8,16)?
> >
> > I have not dodged the question- there must be something wrong with your
> > date or time on your computer - these messages are coming in - in date
> > order the day before - and they don't show up on my listing most of the
> > time.
> >
> > You cannot prove your god is "love" without proving your god exists -
> > without question to all.
> >
> > Tell your god to address the United Nations on peace - on a worldwide
> > broadcast - and have him cure hunger in the world while he is at it to
> > prove he has power beyond talk. He still has his human body - so that
> > should not be a problem.
>
> For that, you should wait for His second coming.
WOW.......... a mere human who *knows* a god is going to 'come'
WOW ..................that must be great for his kudos !
Do you fools EVER THINK ?
bob young
You did it again Frank.........
- you read it through after typing .....
thinking "Dear god I wish that were more convincing............"
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>>> news:vrydnbm66PuDxMHV...@ptd.net...
>>>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You have not been able to prove it.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible for God to be real?
>>>>
>>> You keep dodging the answer to the question I asked you so many
>>> times, Thom: What "proof" would you accept, that our Christian "God is
>>> love" (1 John 4:8,16)?
>>
>> I have not dodged the question- there must be something wrong with your
>> date or time on your computer - these messages are coming in - in date
>> order the day before - and they don't show up on my listing most of the
>> time.
>>
>> You cannot prove your god is "love" without proving your god exists -
>> without question to all.
>>
>> Tell your god to address the United Nations on peace - on a worldwide
>> broadcast - and have him cure hunger in the world while he is at it to
>> prove he has power beyond talk. He still has his human body - so that
>> should not be a problem.
>
>
> For that, you should wait for His second coming.
What second coming?
Dubh Ghall
> Tell us how more and "clearer thinking" will motivate us to do what
>Christ tells us to do below.
Clearer thinking will remove your psychological dependence on your childish superstition,
and may even help with your honesty problem.
monkfish
> monkfish wrote:
>> Thom Madura wrote:
>> > Pastor Frank wrote:
>> >> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> >>> Thom Madura wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You have not been able to prove it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Is it possible for God to be real?
>> >>>
>> >> You keep dodging the answer to the question I asked you so many
>> >> times, Thom: What "proof" would you accept, that our Christian "God is
>> >> love" (1 John 4:8,16)?
>> >
>> > I have not dodged the question- there must be something wrong with your
>> > date or time on your computer - these messages are coming in - in date
>> > order the day before - and they don't show up on my listing most of the
>> > time.
>> >
>> > You cannot prove your god is "love" without proving your god exists -
>> > without question to all.
>> >
>> > Tell your god to address the United Nations on peace - on a worldwide
>> > broadcast - and have him cure hunger in the world while he is at it to
>> > prove he has power beyond talk. He still has his human body - so that
>> > should not be a problem.
>>
>> For that, you should wait for His second coming.
>
>
> WOW.......... a mere human who *knows* a god is going to 'come'
> WOW ..................that must be great for his kudos !
>
> Do you fools EVER THINK ?
Is that why you have the blind faith
that you already know of all actual or possible ways
to prove the existence of anything actual or possible?
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the events they are
supposed to represent?
monkfish
None of your business so long as you have the blind faith
that you already know of all actual or possible ways
to prove the existence of anything actual or possible.
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
For there to be a second coming there has to be a first. What was the first?
>>> Can you love something that does not exist yet?
Can you?
monkfish
Ever heard of the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
>>>> Can you love something that does not exist yet?
>
> Can you?
Sure, I can even love something
that is prior to existence.
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the events they are
supposed to represent?
>
Thom Madura
Just another myth stolen from another religion. And also used by other
religions as well.
>
>
>>>>> Can you love something that does not exist yet?
>> Can you?
>
>
> Sure, I can even love something
> that is prior to existence.
1 - Only if it actually existed
2 - Only if it continues to exist
ANd you cannot prove either.
>
>
monkfish
You are not getting what it means to be prior to existence.
Thom Madura
You exist in the present. You used the present case for your question.
You cannot love something that does not exist. So
1 - Your present case eliminates the "prior to existence".
2 - So - you would not only need to prove a god WAS prior to existence -
but also prove that god still existed in order for your statement to be
possible.
And YOU cannot prove either.
bob young
Did god create the earth and life?
Does god play a part in the events of life on earth?
Does god have a plan?
If god has this plan, how do you know what it is?
Is the bible the word of god?
Is the bible an actual record of god?
Is the bible an actual record of events?
Is god a trinity or a single being in a family?
Is god male or female?
Is jesus god?
Is the earth only as old as the bible says?
Does prayer work?
Are prayers answered?
How many people came to see jesus shortly after the birth?
Was jesus in a manger still or someplace else?
Why didn't jesus author writings?
If jesus did author writings where are they?
How long did jesus stay in the grave?
Why are the customs of christianity so different from the
events they are
supposed to represent?
>
> >>
bob young
Yes - it is an impossible story from thousands of years ago,
there are plenty of similar stories from that time also.
They were rather primitive back then - some still are ......
monkfish
You are clueless.
What kind of statement is "God is prior to existence"?
Factual, normative, or something else?
Logical, definitional, or something else?
Don't you already love your grandchildren
who are not born yet?
I happen to love the Reign of God
which might not exist here on earth yet.
Would you like to know more about the Reign of God?
Thom Madura
Erroneous
>
> Don't you already love your grandchildren
> who are not born yet?
Sorry - you wouldn't understand the child/parent realtionship - you
don't have kids. This has NOTHING to do with religion.
> I happen to love the Reign of God
> which might not exist here on earth yet.
Makes sense - god doesn't exist - reign doesn't exist.
>
> Would you like to know more about the Reign of God?
See - above - that pretty much sums it up.
I have no interest in something that has never happened from someone who
doesn't exist.
>
>