Graven Images - Strictly Forbidden
Andrew
>
> Doesn't the Catholic church have statues of Jesus, Mary and various
> other saints? These are known as "graven images" and I believe God
> frowns upon that sort of thing.
Yes, you are correct. This is what the commandment says about bowing
down before images or statues in our worship. It is *strictly forbidden*..
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of any thing
that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water
under the earth. You shall NOT BOW DOWN to them, OR SERVE THEM."
Exodus 20:4-5
In making a list of the ten commandments that Catholics are told to memorize,
the above commandment which references the issue of graven images and not
bowing down to them has been DELETED...and the last one has been broken
into *two* in order to retain the number ten (10), as illustrated here:
______________________________________________________
The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
4. Honour your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.
http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/thecommandments.shtml
It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored. Otherwise
there would not be so many idols, icons and statues that they bow down
to..which the commandment strictly forbids!
So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not. Since He
is to be our Judge also, it would be wise for them to forsake idolatry and
to obey Him, through the grace that is freely offered to us through Christ
Jesus our Savior.
Andrew
duke
><mike...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1157948001.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Doesn't the Catholic church have statues of Jesus, Mary and various
>> other saints? These are known as "graven images" and I believe God
>> frowns upon that sort of thing.
>Yes, you are correct. This is what the commandment says about bowing
>down before images or statues in our worship. It is *strictly forbidden*..
No, both you and he are incorrect. There are statues of Jesus, Mary, and
various saints, but they are not "graven images". Graven images are idol,
something worshipped, and we do not worship these statues.
Main Entry:graven image
Function:noun
Etymology:graven, past participle of 1grave
Date:14th century
: an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone : IDOL
>"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of any thing
> that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water
> under the earth. You shall NOT BOW DOWN to them, OR SERVE THEM."
> Exodus 20:4-5
And God mandated cherubim on the ARK of the covenant, and Moses had a staff with
a carved snake (medical symbol) on it to give life no less.
>In making a list of the ten commandments that Catholics are told to memorize,
>the above commandment which references the issue of graven images and not
>bowing down to them has been DELETED...and the last one has been broken
>into *two* in order to retain the number ten (10), as illustrated here:
Now, andy, God does not want you to lie about him.
______________________________________________________
>The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
> 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
> 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
> 4. Honour your father and your mother.
> 5. You shall not kill.
> 6. You shall not commit adultery.
> 7. You shall not steal.
> 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
> 9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
> 10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.
>
>http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/thecommandments.shtml
>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
It is un-Chrisitan to lie that way, andy. And to boot, Commandment #1 above
covers all idolatry.
>Otherwise
>there would not be so many idols, icons and statues that they bow down
>to..which the commandment strictly forbids!
It is un-Chrisitan to lie that way, andy.
>So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
>obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not.
We do - you don't - you protest_ers deny the words of Jesus in the bible.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
duke
>> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
>Which is NOT, of course, how it's written in the Bible.
Right, they are not numbers in the bible.
>>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
>>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
>As are all the others, IF you go to confession each week, and just forget
>the part about 'making a serious effort to NOT commit the same sin again'.
As opposed to protest_ants that just take the position that they are saved and
sin doesn't matter.
Interesting Websites
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mkdag2ddkmtb42dgr...@4ax.com...
Because Moses came out of Egypt, and the snake is the symbol of the pharaoh
in Egypt, it is highly likely the the carved snake was the symbol of the new
pharaoh, priest, teacher or ruler (Moses himself).
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored. Otherwise
>there would not be so many idols, icons and statues that they bow down
>to..which the commandment strictly forbids!
>
>So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
>obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not. Since He
>is to be our Judge also, it would be wise for them to forsake idolatry and
>to obey Him, through the grace that is freely offered to us through Christ
>Jesus our Savior.
Their 'catechism' is a farce, and it also argues with itself, Andrew.
The thing also falsely proclaims that 'Mary was assumed body and soul
into Heaven' which did NOT occur--- so if anyone is to be expected to
believe the thing, it should start by showing some honesty and telling
the truth!
There is another group you might be interested in posting to --- it's
called 'alt.recovery.catholicism'
It's supposed to be for those who have been smart enough to leave
romanism---- but of course, there are some romanists in there also,
trying to taunt them into returning.
I feel badly for the ex-romanists, because they've been hurt enough.
they don't need to be goaded like the romanists who are harassing them
are doing.
I post there also, although I have not been there for awhile now-
started back just yesterday.......
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:30:33 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>______________________________________________________
>>The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
>>
>> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
>
>Which is NOT, of course, how it's written in the Bible.
>
>>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
>>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
>
>As are all the others, IF you go to confession each week, and just forget
>the part about 'making a serious effort to NOT commit the same sin again'.
>
>
>
>
>Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
>
>This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity...
>
> Remove XYZ to email me
Good morning, Kat....
The problem is, the romanist membership 'confesses' to a mere priest,
who is just as sinful as they are.
Anyone can FORGIVE- but only GOD (the REAL HOLY FATHER) can
ABSOLVE.... romanists erroneously imagine a mere priest can absolve as
well.
H Dickmann
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:6gpag21itm7o8hp34...@4ax.com...
I don't know what romanists believe. I don't even know who they are.
But Catholics don't believe this.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
Sure you know what romanists are- they're members of the romanist CULT
aka 'roman catholicism'.
And they DO believe that a mere priest can 'absolve'.
H Dickmann
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:skuag2d09di4l936g...@4ax.com...
There is no Roman cult that I know off.
Strictly speaking there is not even a Roman Catholic Church.
It should be the Vatican Catholic Church.
> And they DO believe that a mere priest can 'absolve'.
God forgives sins.
The Priest stands in as a proxy.
Of course, you don't need a proxy
You stand in the front of a mirror and confess your sins.
By the way, do you believe that your parents went to hell?
Andrew
> There is another group you might be interested in posting to --- it's
> called 'alt.recovery.catholicism'
>
> It's supposed to be for those who have been smart enough to leave
> romanism---- but of course, there are some romanists in there also,
> trying to taunt them into returning.
>
> I feel badly for the ex-romanists, because they've been hurt enough.
> they don't need to be goaded like the romanists who are harassing them
> are doing.
> I post there also, although I have not been there for awhile now-
> started back just yesterday......
It is understandable that their unfortunate experience in that system has
turned some of them away from all religion, and has certainly confused
their understanding of the true character of God, which we see is most
clearly revealed in the life and teachings of Christ.
Andrew
Stephen Korsman
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:J89Ng.17783$Qf.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The use of statues, pictures, and other icons in worship
To me this is a fairly simple issue, and the problem lies in Protestant
misinterpretation of the second commandment and of what the Bible says. It
can be solved using the Bible alone, therefore I will deal with it first.
The way I see it, the second commandment is conditional - we may make
statues, pictures, etc., but we may not worship them. And since Catholics do
not worship the images in their churches and homes, they are not breaking
any of God's commandments by using those images.
For convenience, I will quote Exodus 20:4-5a (RSV) here: You shall not make
for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven
above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the
earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God
am a jealous God ...
This verse has been interpreted in two ways - no images may be made at all,
and images may be made but not worshipped.
Common sense and experience tells us that it is the second interpretation
that is the correct one - we may make images that are not worshipped. If the
second commandment were absolute, it would be a sin to make photographs, put
pictures in books, make statues of non-religious people. Most people (there
are exceptions) do not go to that extreme.
Some people say, okay, but religious statues, pictures and icons are not
allowed. Once again, most Protestants will disagree with that, at least in
practice. Most Protestant Churches allow illustrated Bibles - these contain
pictures of the prophets, saints, and even depictions of God like those
found in Daniel 7:9, and of course pictures of Jesus, the icon (eikwn) of
God in flesh - see I Cor 11:7. The Bible is also clear about the making of
such graven images - it is permissible. In fact God himself commanded it -
see Exodus 25:18-22, 26:1,31 (God commands statues and images of cherubim to
be made), Num. 21:8-9 (God commands a statue of a snake to be made for
religious purposes), I Kings 6:23-29,35, 7:25,29,36, I Chron 28:18-19, Ezek
41:15 (graven images of the sea, oxen, palm trees, cherubim, lions).
So all I can conclude from the above passages is that images are allowed,
even in a religious context such as the Temple, as long as they are not
worshipped.
Some objections can be made - the cherubim over the Ark would not be seen by
many people, and therefore would not be worshipped. But this ignores the
fact that while the ark was being carried around on the journeys of the
people of Israel before it came to rest in the Temple, many people would see
it. The images of oxen, lions, etc. would be seen by the average Israelite.
And finally, the image of the snake was an image that God said the general
public had to go to and look at in order to be healed of snake bite. The
common Protestant objection to that today would be that it is only an image,
it has no special powers, no faith in the image can save you, not even from
snake bite, and that to have such faith that looking to the image can indeed
save you would constitute idolatry. However, God believed differently. He
used this image to test the people's faith in him, not the image. Likewise
today, when we look to an image, it is not the image of Christ on the cross
we rely on or pray to or worship, but Christ himself. Same as with the
snake, the same sort of respect.
The fact is that the people of Israel at that time were very much tempted to
worship a piece of wood or brass that represented something, especially
calves. The commandment was designed to stop them replacing their true God
with false gods, and was not designed to keep their religious art forms
limited to abstract painting. That sort of temptation is no longer an issue
in modern culture - people don't want to worship a statue, they are aware
that it is just a piece of plaster or wood. They worship in front of the
statue, as the ancient Israelites showed their faith to God in front of a
statue.
An objection that still often comes up is that we bow in front of this
statue, and this appears to be forbidden by the second commandment. However,
a look into what the Bible says about bowing gives a different picture.
There are certain verses that show people bowing down to other people or
angels, and the person being honoured in this way stops the action, e.g. Rev
22:8-9. This is because the person realised that this person bowing down was
doing so in an unfit way - he was worshipping him, which was wrong. That is
why the action was stopped and corrected.
However, when bowing down to a person and not intending it as worship, but
only out of respect, one is not sinning at all. I Sam 25:41 shows a woman
bowing to David, and nowhere is this condemned. The LXX uses the Greek word
proskuneo (proskunho) for both this action of respect as well as worship of
God. See also the angels in Gen. 18:2-3 (LXX), and the master in Matt 18:26.
So we have concluded the following:
- The Bible condemns worship of images, but not the making of images
- The Bible condemns worship of angels and people, but not the honouring of
them by bowing to them
That leaves us with the fact that it is not a sin to bow to an angel or
saint in honour of him/her. And if we do not bow to their statue, but rather
to them, that is not sinful. In fact it is something the Bible is completely
silent on - i.e. bowing to saints in front of images of them. If the image
is not sinful, the bowing is not sinful, then what is the problem with what
Catholics do ?
One further thing to note is that Catholics often seem to think of certain
statues or other items as holy, to give them respect. Most notable of these
is the Turin Shroud, which some claim is the burial shroud of Jesus.
Protestants seem to think that honouring the bones of a holy man is wrong,
or that honouring the tomb or belongings or relics of a holy man is wrong.
To be more correct, Catholics worship God and honour the saints in the
presence of these holy items, and do not honour them directly - that would
be pointless. But Protestants still think it is as pointless to worship in
the presence of a saint's bones as it is to worship in the presence of a
sack of flour. However, that is where Catholics and the Bible see
differently to the Protestants.
The Protestants have fallen prey to the heresy of the 1st century Gnostics.
They believed that all that was physical was evil, and that good was found
only in the spiritual. Hence they rejected the use of icons and symbols -
physical, tangible means of worship (note: not objects of worship.) The
consequence of this was that they rejected the idea that Jesus the physical
man was actually God - the main heresy for which the Apostle John scolds
them in his epistles, found in the Bible.
Look at scriptures like II Kings 13:20-21 (Elisha's bones perform a
miracle), Matt 9:20-22 (the woman believed if she just touched Jesus'
clothes she would be cured - and was cured), Acts 5:15-16 (Peter's shadow is
seen as holy and miraculous), and Acts 19:11-12 (Paul's handkerchiefs are
sent around to perform miracles on their own). Here we can see cases where
physical objects carry with them miraculous power. Nowhere does the Bible
tell us that such events are wrong, that the use of miraculous bones or
objects is sacrilegious - in fact Acts 19:11-12 tells us that the miracles
were organised by God himself. So it is quite understandable why Catholics,
like the early Christians, see holiness on physical objects, and think it
appropriate to give thanks to God for letting such holiness touch their
lives by giving such items respect, and even a place to be seen and used in
the churches and homes of the faithful.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:J89Ng.17783$Qf.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Has anyone really removed anything from the 10 Commandments ?
Here is an actual question I received, written by a Seventh Day Adventist:
"NIV, KJV, NKJV, RSV etc. have all Gods Commandments intact. HOWEVER, the
Catholic Catechism has totally deleted the 2nd commandment, and split the
10th into 2 to make up 10 commandments. They CHANGED Gods Law!!!!"
Actually, that is far from true. The 2nd commandment was not deleted - it's
still very much there. The words that the Protestants call the 2nd
commandment, are found in the first commandment of the Catholics. Let me go
into a bit more detail here. A quick word before that - go and look at your
1st commandment - it says "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other
gods before me." That command to have no other gods includes, obviously,
carved gods, painted gods. Why must Protestants split this up into 2
commandments ? I'll tell you why.
If you want to split up the commandments into the smallest commandments
possible, there are 11 commandments:
1. No other gods.
2. No idols.
3. No blasphemy.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honour your parents.
6. Do not kill.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet your neighbour's wife.
11. Do not cover your neighbour's goods.
Logically 10 and 11 can be fused into one commandment - "Do not covet."
Logically 1 and 2 can be fused into one commantment - "no false gods,
including idol gods which are also false gods."
(10 and 11 are one mixed together in Exodus, but listed separately in
Deuteronomy.)
Here is a quotation from the KJV showing exactly how Catholics divide up the
commandments:
Commandment #1
Exod 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of
Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exod 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exod 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth:
Exod 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exod 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my
commandments.
Commandment #2
Exod 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the
LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Commandment #3
Exod 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
So we can also have 11 commandments, or 9 commandments. It is interesting to
note that the number 10 was given in the Bible, but not precisely which
words went with each number. The Jews used a version of the commandments
that listed 10 and 11 together, while the early Christians chose to use a
different list used by another Jewish minority. Both lists came from
Judaism, the one was just more popular than the other. Both, however,
contained the full text of the commandments, not leaving any out.
Later the Catholic Church was divided on the issue. Origen used the
"Protestant" set, while Augustine favoured the "Catholic" set. Mainstream
Judaism adopted the Protestant set. Everyone kept the same commandments,
though.
Later, the Catholic Church decided to adopt BOTH versions as official
versions, and that is still the case today ... something not many people
know, but which can be verified by doing research into the Eastern Rite
Catholic Churches. To simplify things, it is the western (latin) part of the
Catholic Church that uses the "Catholic" or "Western" ten commandments, and
the eastern part of the Catholic Church that uses the "Protestant" or
"Eastern" ten commandments ... long before any Protestants came along. Both
parts of the Catholic Church - east and west - fall under the authority of
the pope - they are one denomination, although different patriarchates. It
is thus only in the west that Protestants have become upset by the different
order of the ten commandments. In the east, Catholics and Protestants and
Orthodox use exactly the same sequence of commandments !!!
So, no, we did not change God's law, we just list the wording differently to
what you do. And also, not all Catholics do that. Many Catholics use EXACTLY
the same ten commandments as you Adventists and Protestants do !
Not one of the ten commandments has been edited, rejected, or changed by the
Catholic Church. However, for the sake of making memorisation of the crux of
the commandment easier, the longer ones have been abbreviated. I have seen
SDA listings of the 10 commandments, including the 4th one - most of them
read "Keep the Sabbath day holy" or something like that. They do NOT list
the full 4th commandment, so it is very unfair and hypocritical to expect
the RCC to do what is not expected of the SDA Church.
Stephen Korsman
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:J89Ng.17783$Qf.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Andrew makes a habit out of deliberately misrepresenting Catholic teaching
and practice. It has been explained to him many times, and he still
continues. If people set aside the caricature of Catholicism painted by
anti-Catholics, and examine Catholicism objectively, they won't necessarily
agree with it, but they won't deliberately misrepresent it the way he does.
Honesty doesn't help his agenda.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/148/Andrew
God bless,
Stephen
Stephen Korsman
He knows. But he also knows that telling the truth about Catholicism won't
get him anywhere. He needs to misrepresent our faith in order to keep
going.
It's a very sad case.
duke
>Because Moses came out of Egypt, and the snake is the symbol of the pharaoh
>in Egypt, it is highly likely the the carved snake was the symbol of the new
>pharaoh, priest, teacher or ruler (Moses himself).
Nope.
Numbers 21:6-9 (New International Version)
6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many
Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke
against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away
from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is
bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on
a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake,
he lived.
duke
>You are a liar, duke. I have never in my life heard a Christian say
>that.
>What we say is that no one (with the exception of you, possibly) is
>perfect; we all sin. And that is what God's Grace is about.
And God said that he who deliberately keeps on sinning after learning of the
truth of God will suffer the fires of hell. Heb 10:26-27.
I'll leave the finger pointing to you.
>Of course, since you don't sin, that doesn't need to concern you.
I do my best to avoid mortal sin, that sin that destroys my relationship with
God.
duke
>Their 'catechism' is a farce, and it also argues with itself, Andrew.
You don't even know what the bible says, doc, much less the Catechism.
Satan has your tongue.
>The thing also falsely proclaims that 'Mary was assumed body and soul
>into Heaven' which did NOT occur
And why would anyone believe you?
>There is another group you might be interested in posting to --- it's
>called 'alt.recovery.catholicism'
>It's supposed to be for those who have been smart enough to leave
>romanism---- but of course, there are some romanists in there also,
>trying to taunt them into returning.
Actually, they are atheists now.
duke
wrote:
People like doc and andrew prefer to lie rather than espouse the truth.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>
>There is no Roman cult that I know off.
>Strictly speaking there is not even a Roman Catholic Church.
>It should be the Vatican Catholic Church.
>
Vatican, schmatican- all CRAP.
The romanist CULT is the proper term IMNSHO.
The God-accursed THING teaches falsely, lies, slanders, libels,
tortures and murders.
>> And they DO believe that a mere priest can 'absolve'.
>
>God forgives sins.
>The Priest stands in as a proxy.
>Of course, you don't need a proxy
>You stand in the front of a mirror and confess your sins.
>By the way, do you believe that your parents went to hell?
No, I don't. They both were believers in the Lord.
Dumb question.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
AMEN, Andrew- and I DO feel so badly for them, being falsely accused
of supposedly 'leaving THE Church - when in reality, all they left is
the filthy romanist cult.
NOs...@no.spam
<skor...@theotoko.co.za> wrote:
>
>Has anyone really removed anything from the 10 Commandments ?
YES - you romanist infidels removed the verse which speaks of 'idols'
-- all the excuses in the world will NOT atone for it.
NOs...@no.spam
<skor...@theotoko.co.za> wrote:
>
>To me this is a fairly simple issue, and the problem lies in Protestant
>misinterpretation of the second commandment and of what the Bible says.
NONSENSE
NOs...@no.spam
<skor...@theotoko.co.za> wrote:
>
>Andrew makes a habit out of deliberately misrepresenting Catholic teaching
>and practice. It has been explained to him many times, and he still
>continues. If people set aside the caricature of Catholicism painted by
>anti-Catholics, and examine Catholicism objectively, they won't necessarily
>agree with it, but they won't deliberately misrepresent it the way he does.
CAN the lies, romanist.
YOU ARE BRAINWASHED.
NOs...@no.spam
<skor...@theotoko.co.za> wrote:
>
>11. Do not cover your neighbour's goods.
>
>Logically 10 and 11 can be fused into one commandment - "Do not covet."
>Logically 1 and 2 can be fused into one commantment - "no false gods,
>including idol gods which are also false gods."
NO, IT CANNOT.
CALL IT YELLING IF YOU WILL - I DON'T CARE.
WHAT GOD [THE REAL HOLY FATHER] PLACED IN THE BIBLE, YOU ROMANISTS
HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ALTER.
Andrew
> "Stephen Korsman" wrote:
>>
>>11. Do not cover your neighbour's goods.
>>
>>Logically 10 and 11 can be fused into one commandment - "Do not covet."
>>Logically 1 and 2 can be fused into one commantment - "no false gods,
>>including idol gods which are also false gods."
>
> WHAT GOD [THE REAL HOLY FATHER] PLACED IN THE BIBLE, YOU ROMANISTS
> HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ALTER.
Here is the official Vatican source which emphatically proves that the second
commandment of the Decalogue has been REMOVED, and that the tenth has
been divided into two in order to fill the gap made by this most audacious and
unauthorized action.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
1. As given by God to Moses.
2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY DELETED!
And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt to cover their act!
Andrew
Mike Dundee
WOW.
Doesn't get any more brazen than that.
Hopefully, many catholics will see the light and get out of this cult.
duke
doc, you have no idea what the bible says. You actually think the ten
commandments are numbered in the bible, don't you.
The three village idiots - ikh, andrew, and doc - satan has all 3 tongues.
duke
>CAN the lies, romanist.
> YOU ARE BRAINWASHED.
Satan has your tongue, dos.
duke
not at all, dos, we don't worship statues. But you're too stupid to know the
difference, or too unChristian.
duke
>NO, IT CANNOT.
>CALL IT YELLING IF YOU WILL - I DON'T CARE.
Yes, a very typical un-Christian act of yours.
> WHAT GOD [THE REAL HOLY FATHER] PLACED IN THE BIBLE, YOU ROMANISTS
>HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ALTER.
You add and subtract to scripture, dos.
duke
> This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
>
> 1. As given by God to Moses.
>
> 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
>
> 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY DELETED!
>And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt to cover their act!
Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in the
bible?
duke
>WOW.
>Doesn't get any more brazen than that.
>Hopefully, many catholics will see the light and get out of this cult.
Nope, we follow Jesus, not andrew.
duke
>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY DELETED!
>
>You moron! It's COMBINED with the First.
He's either too stupid to know that, or he intends to lie about it.
Mike Dundee
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
> wrote:
>
>> This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
>>
>> 1. As given by God to Moses.
>>
>> 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
>>
>> 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>
>>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY
>>DELETED!
>
>>And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt to
>>cover their act!
>
> Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in
> the
> bible?
So that gives you the right to alter them?
LoneStar
>
> So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
> obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not. Since He
> is to be our Judge also, it would be wise for them to forsake idolatry and
> to obey Him, through the grace that is freely offered to us through Christ
> Jesus our Savior.
>
Seems like it's time to open the "graven images" file again, as has been
done many times before. Other than hate, personal attacks, and
religion-baiting, do you have a real life? I wonder what comes next week --
more about the Pope again, or Mary? Maybe something original? I know: how
about Indulgences!
Perhaps you should consider that it is NONE of your business what Catholics
do in the practice of their religion. Do you bash on the Jews or Muslims?
Or Baptists? What is it about the Catholics that eats at you. Of course
you won't answer because that would expose something quite dark within you!
Funny, and pathetic all at the same time!! (:-))
Interesting also that you never really talk about your religion that much --
SDA, I presume. You don't discuss its fine points, teachings, doctrines,
hardly anything. How odd (and telling). All you do is trash others.
Freaky!
EW
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Warning: Do not use Ultimate-Anonymity
They are worthless spammers that are running a scam.
Mike Dundee
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:39:53 GMT, "Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote:
>
>>WOW.
>>Doesn't get any more brazen than that.
>>Hopefully, many catholics will see the light and get out of this cult.
>
> Nope, we follow Jesus, not andrew.
People that alter the 10 commandments to suit their religious sect
are most certainly NOT following Jesus. And the RCC has indeed
altered the 10 commandments.
H Dickmann
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:6vebg25s4rj66ton4...@4ax.com...
Not really considering that the most anti Catholics grew up as Catholics.
They constantly have to justify themselves and quieten their troubled
conscience.
Mike Dundee
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 22:01:15 GMT, The Kat <ne...@katxyzkave.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY
>>>DELETED!
>>
>>You moron! It's COMBINED with the First.
>
> He's either too stupid to know that, or he intends to lie about it.
Tell me, how do you combine them and end up with something that
is sooooo much shorter than what God gave to Moses?
From Exodus 20:
I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
From the RCC Catechism
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.
_____________________________
How can you justify combining it, shortening it and
watering it down?? And don't read that and tell me that's
not a watered down version.
BAM
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:6vebg25s4rj66ton4...@4ax.com...
I told you doc, that you should have the civility to call 1/6 of the world's
population by what they call themselves - Catholics - not romanists, (which
is just a made up name like romath)
BAM
BAM
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:16fbg2toc01m040j1...@4ax.com...
There she goes again:
"the filthy romanist cult." And you call your brother a filthy romanist?
BAM
Mike Dundee
"BAM" <mcca...@blahblahbellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:V3oNg.34401$ry2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Not as bad as "bitch", but I don't like the "filthy romanist" remarks
either.
Tornado
<johnw<no>@yoo.how> wrote:
> What we say is that no one (with the exception of you, possibly) is
> perfect; we all sin. And that is what God's Grace is about.
>
Boy is THAT a non sequitor!
bob young
Andrew wrote:
> <mike...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1157948001.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Doesn't the Catholic church have statues of Jesus, Mary and various
> > other saints? These are known as "graven images" and I believe God
> > frowns upon that sort of thing.
>
> Yes, you are correct. This is what the commandment says about bowing
> down before images or statues in our worship. It is *strictly forbidden*..
No it wasn't a 'commandment' it was an early human talking
A terrified early human scared he might lose some followers of his scam
over to a different scam - put into modern day verbiality !
Man has been carving gods for millions of years, mostly to chase away the evil spirits that he thought
lurked in the forest at night. [they had no lights back then you know].
Terribly banal and primitive isn't it?
>
>
> "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of any thing
> that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water
> under the earth. You shall NOT BOW DOWN to them, OR SERVE THEM."
> Exodus 20:4-5
>
> In making a list of the ten commandments that Catholics are told to memorize,
> the above commandment which references the issue of graven images and not
> bowing down to them has been DELETED...and the last one has been broken
> into *two* in order to retain the number ten (10), as illustrated here:
> ______________________________________________________
> The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
>
> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
> 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
> 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
> 4. Honour your father and your mother.
> 5. You shall not kill.
> 6. You shall not commit adultery.
> 7. You shall not steal.
> 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
> 9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
> 10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.
>
> http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/thecommandments.shtml
>
> It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
> forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored. Otherwise
> there would not be so many idols, icons and statues that they bow down
> to..which the commandment strictly forbids!
>
> So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
> obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not. Since He
> is to be our Judge also, it would be wise for them to forsake idolatry and
> to obey Him, through the grace that is freely offered to us through Christ
> Jesus our Savior.
>
> Andrew
bob young
"john w
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 05:23:33 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
> author
> >On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:04:10 GMT, The Kat <ne...@katxyzkave.net> wrote:
> >
> >>> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
> >>Which is NOT, of course, how it's written in the Bible.
> >
> >Right, they are not numbers in the bible.
> >
> >>>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
> >>>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
> >
> >>As are all the others, IF you go to confession each week, and just forget
> >>the part about 'making a serious effort to NOT commit the same sin again'.
> >
> >As opposed to protest_ants that just take the position that they are saved and
> >sin doesn't matter.
>
> You are a liar, duke. I have never in my life heard a Christian say
> that.
>
> What we say is that no one (with the exception of you, possibly) is
> perfect; we all sin. And that is what God's Grace is about.
>
> Of course, since you don't sin, that doesn't need to concern you.
>
> (note, I am exaggerating to make a point. I am not lying, as you so
> love to accuse.)
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to
its side."
[R.J.Hoffmann]
•R L Measures
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
> >
> > 1. As given by God to Moses.
> >
> > 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
> >
> > 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>
> >Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been
ENTIRELY DELETED!
>
> >And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt
to cover their act!
>
> Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in the
> bible?
>
*** Not only that but there were over a hundred according to Torah. As
to the charge of idolatry, in 1545AD the RCC announced that Anything it
came up with was equal to scripture and it was automatically approved by
God-Jesus, so RCC statues of the Blessed perpetual Virgin Mary and other
holy persons were now okay with the Big Boss.
duke
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:57:47 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
>article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>author
>>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 07:09:05 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.how> wrote:
>>
>>>You are a liar, duke. I have never in my life heard a Christian say
>>>that.
>>>What we say is that no one (with the exception of you, possibly) is
>>>perfect; we all sin. And that is what God's Grace is about.
>>
>>And God said that he who deliberately keeps on sinning
>
>The key words are "deliberately" and "keeps on" (continues to) sin.
That's quite right, jw, and exactly what I said. I suspect that you consider
"that next sin" as not "continues to". It's called a mortal sin if it breaks
our relationship with God. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and you
know what that means.
>We all sin. It's our nature. We cannot live in a STATE of perpetual
>sin (that is, continue to fornicate or live in a sexual relationship
>with someone we refuse to marry (Oprah Winfrey comes to mind) and be a
>Christian.
Define "marry".
duke
>>>WOW.
>>>Doesn't get any more brazen than that.
>>>Hopefully, many catholics will see the light and get out of this cult.
>> Nope, we follow Jesus, not andrew.
>People that alter the 10 commandments to suit their religious sect
>are most certainly NOT following Jesus. And the RCC has indeed
>altered the 10 commandments.
WHERE have we altered the 10 commandments? Do you actually think they are
numbered in the bible?
duke
Not altered.
duke
>> Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in the
>> bible?
>*** Not only that but there were over a hundred according to Torah.
Christ came to complete the old covenant and give us a new one. We are bound by
the 10 commandments, not the man made Jewish laws.
Mike Dundee
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 22:47:33 GMT, "Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:qonbg2da6o79t8p7g...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
>>>>
>>>> 1. As given by God to Moses.
>>>>
>>>> 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
>>>>
>>>> 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>>>
>>>>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY
>>>>DELETED!
>>>
>>>>And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt
>>>>to
>>>>cover their act!
>>>
>>> Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in
>>> the
>>> bible?
>>
>>So that gives you the right to alter them?
>
> Not altered.
From this in Exodus 20:
I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
To THIS in your Catechism:
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.
__________________________
That is so watered down it's pathetic. And watered down is
changed, altered.
Claude
> <mike...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1157948001.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Doesn't the Catholic church have statues of Jesus, Mary and various
>> other saints? These are known as "graven images" and I believe God
>> frowns upon that sort of thing.
>
> Yes, you are correct. This is what the commandment says about bowing
> down before images or statues in our worship. It is *strictly forbidden*..
>
> thing
> that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in
> the water
> Exodus 20:4-5
>
> In making a list of the ten commandments that Catholics are told to
> memorize,
> the above commandment which references the issue of graven images and not
> bowing down to them has been DELETED...and the last one has been broken
> into *two* in order to retain the number ten (10), as illustrated here:
> ______________________________________________________
> The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
>
> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
> 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
> 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
> 4. Honour your father and your mother.
> 5. You shall not kill.
> 6. You shall not commit adultery.
> 7. You shall not steal.
> 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
> 9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.
> 10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.
>
> http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/thecommandments.shtml
>
> there would not be so many idols, icons and statues that they bow down
> to..which the commandment strictly forbids!
>
> So here our Catholic friends have a decision to make. Whether they will
> obey our God who has given us His commandments - or not. Since He
> is to be our Judge also, it would be wise for them to forsake idolatry and
> to obey Him, through the grace that is freely offered to us through Christ
> Jesus our Savior.
>
>
>
>
> Andrew
others. They said god was everywhere, under every rock, not just in
churches.
--
If a group's goal is the complete destruction of free people
then extermination is the only choice and shouldn't be delayed.
Only defective human beings cannot live and let live.
Claude Hopper
•R L Measures
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:56:13 -0700, r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
>
> >> Hey, 'drew, do you realize that the 10 commandments are not numbered in the
> >> bible?
>
> >*** Not only that but there were over a hundred according to Torah.
>
> Christ came to complete the old covenant and give us a new one. We are
bound by
> the 10 commandments, not the man made Jewish laws.
>
• According to Torah, these were commandments given by G-d to Moses on
Mount Sinai.
- note - The first 5 books of the OT came from Torah, a.k.a. the Pentatuch.
Stephen Korsman
> <NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:q9fbg2dp8j1qa1ipp...@4ax.com...
> > "Stephen Korsman" wrote:
> >>
> >>11. Do not cover your neighbour's goods.
> >>
> >>Logically 10 and 11 can be fused into one commandment - "Do not covet."
> >>Logically 1 and 2 can be fused into one commantment - "no false gods,
> >>including idol gods which are also false gods."
> >
>
> > WHAT GOD [THE REAL HOLY FATHER] PLACED IN THE BIBLE, YOU ROMANISTS
> > HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ALTER.
>
> Here is the official Vatican source which emphatically proves that the
second
> commandment of the Decalogue has been REMOVED, and that the tenth has
> been divided into two in order to fill the gap made by this most audacious
and
> unauthorized action.
>
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
>
> This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
>
> 1. As given by God to Moses.
>
> 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
>
> 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>
> Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY
DELETED!
>
> And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt to
cover their act!
That's just another dishonest attempt to make it seem as if Catholics
deleted something. In reality, it's showing how they are counted, and how
they are summarised for catechetical purposes.
If you get past that, your mind is obviously closed to anything that might
give Catholicism a fair trial.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
"Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:mOlNg.619$IA....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:6snbg2ldtk8ppme53...@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 22:01:15 GMT, The Kat <ne...@katxyzkave.net> wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:26 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been
ENTIRELY
> >>>DELETED!
> >>
> >>You moron! It's COMBINED with the First.
> >
> > He's either too stupid to know that, or he intends to lie about it.
>
> Tell me, how do you combine them and end up with something that
> is sooooo much shorter than what God gave to Moses?
It's called a summarised version, which is used for catechetical purposes,
just like what Protestants do. And, just as with Protestants, the full
version is there in the detailed explanations (e.g. the CCC) and the Bible.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
> From Exodus 20:
duke
>>That's quite right, jw, and exactly what I said. I suspect that you consider
>>"that next sin" as not "continues to". It's called a mortal sin if it breaks
>Interesting. I don't find any passages in the Bible that use the words
>"mortal sin". Where is that found?
It's referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". It will never be
forgiven in the life to come (purgatory) or Heaven. Mat 12:32. Have you ever
read Matthew?
>>our relationship with God. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and you
>>know what that means.
>I don't care this much = about the opinion of pope worshipper.
Then you don't care about the NT.
Mike Dundee
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:26:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.how> wrote:
>
>>>That's quite right, jw, and exactly what I said. I suspect that you
>>>consider
>>>"that next sin" as not "continues to". It's called a mortal sin if it
>>>breaks
>
>>Interesting. I don't find any passages in the Bible that use the words
>>"mortal sin". Where is that found?
>
> It's referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". It will never be
> forgiven in the life to come (purgatory) or Heaven. Mat 12:32. Have you
> ever
> read Matthew?
>
>>>our relationship with God. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit,
>>>and you
>>>know what that means.
>>I don't care this much = about the opinion of pope worshipper.
>
> Then you don't care about the NT.
You worship a man, Christians worship God.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
><NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message news:q9fbg2dp8j1qa1ipp...@4ax.com...
>> "Stephen Korsman" wrote:
>>>
>>>11. Do not cover your neighbour's goods.
>>>
>>>Logically 10 and 11 can be fused into one commandment - "Do not covet."
>>>Logically 1 and 2 can be fused into one commantment - "no false gods,
>>>including idol gods which are also false gods."
>>
>
>> WHAT GOD [THE REAL HOLY FATHER] PLACED IN THE BIBLE, YOU ROMANISTS
>> HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ALTER.
>
>Here is the official Vatican source which emphatically proves that the second
>commandment of the Decalogue has been REMOVED, and that the tenth has
>been divided into two in order to fill the gap made by this most audacious and
>unauthorized action.
>
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
>
> This site lists -three- columns showing the Ten Commandments:
>
> 1. As given by God to Moses.
>
> 2. As rehearsed by Moses before entering the promised land.
>
> 3. As changed by the Catholic Church.
>
>Notice in the third column that the second commandment has been ENTIRELY DELETED!
>
>And the tenth commandment has been divided into two, in a vain attempt to cover their act!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Andrew
AMEN, BROTHER.................. the romanist religion HAS indeed
changed the Ten Commandments TO SUIT THEIR OWN EVIL AGENDA.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>WOW.
>Doesn't get any more brazen than that.
>Hopefully, many catholics will see the light and get out of this cult.
>
Hopefully, YES
shas...@my-deja.com
NOs...@no.spam wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 09:04:10 GMT, The Kat <ne...@katxyzkave.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:30:33 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >>______________________________________________________
> >>The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
> >>
> >
> >Which is NOT, of course, how it's written in the Bible.
> >
> >>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
> >
> >the part about 'making a serious effort to NOT commit the same sin again'.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity...
> >
> > Remove XYZ to email me
> Good morning, Kat....
>
> The problem is, the romanist membership 'confesses' to a mere priest,
> who is just as sinful as they are.
> Anyone can FORGIVE- but only GOD (the REAL HOLY FATHER) can
> ABSOLVE.... romanists erroneously imagine a mere priest can absolve as
> well.
I'd argue that when we see things from a broader, more complete
perspective,
that we will have to forgive ourselves. And that, when sin is
confessed,
regardless of to whom, when we admit our mistakes as mistakes,
we take steps to facilitate our own forgiveness.
Once the born-again literalists figure out that religion changes and
evolves
depending on the needs of the peoples of particular times, then
the seeming difference of the God of the old testament and
the God Christ becomes apparent. And we can understand
that God loves us, all of us, no matter what.
And that our purpose is to be like the Father--to love all no matter
if they think that we are animals or torture us. That's the challenge.
Arguing about absolution or confession to me seems absurd
in the face of man's inhumanity to man.
S~
Andrew
> "duke" wrote:
> <snipped>
>
>
> You worship a man, Christians worship God.
>
And there is the Catholic practice of the worship of the BVM,
as stated below by a Catholic theologian...
"The worship of Mary as a saint is fully warranted, and there is
nothing to be said against it.
"We find wholly justifiable the worship of Mary as a saint..we
worship Mary not only as Saint Mary, in common with all the
saints; we render her also a peculiar and much higher worship.
"There is and can be no truer test of one's active, living faith in
our holy religion..than a firm attachment to the worship of Mary."
http://www.geocities.com/militantis/maryworship.html
And by the Catholic Encyclopedia...
"As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent
rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm
In contrast to what our Lord Jesus has said:
"It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him
ONLY" Matthew 4:10
"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him ONLY you
shall serve." Luke 4:8
Andrew
Andrew
> NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>> The Kat wrote:
>> >"Andrew" wrote:
>> >>______________________________________________________
>> >>The (Catholic)Ten Commandments:
>> >>
>> >> 1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.
>> >
>> >Which is NOT, of course, how it's written in the Bible.
>> >
>> >>It is true that there is a Catechism which does mention the command that
>> >>forbids idolatry, but the commandment is essentially ignored.
>> >
>> >As are all the others, IF you go to confession each week, and just forget
>> >the part about 'making a serious effort to NOT commit the same sin again'.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> The problem is, the romanist membership 'confesses' to a mere priest,
>> who is just as sinful as they are.
>> Anyone can FORGIVE- but only GOD (the REAL HOLY FATHER) can
>> ABSOLVE.... romanists erroneously imagine a mere priest can absolve as
>> well.
>
> I'd argue that when we see things from a broader, more complete perspective,
> that we will have to forgive ourselves. And that, when sin is confessed,
> regardless of to whom, when we admit our mistakes as mistakes,
> we take steps to facilitate our own forgiveness.
I believe there is truth in what you say about the merit of "admitting our
mistakes." The problem is, that the actual pardon and cleansing of all of
our sins comes ONLY from God, through the merits of the sacrifice of
Christ.
That is why the mind of the penitent must be directed..directly to Jesus
the Savior who was lifted up for him. When the mind is rather directed
to another sinful human or is directed to works of penance that he does,
then the direct living connection to the true source of pardon and power
is intercepted, and he can not experience the freedom that we may have
in the full and free complete forgiveness of our sins.
> Once the born-again literalists figure out that religion changes and evolves
> depending on the needs of the peoples of particular times, then
> the seeming difference of the God of the old testament and
> the God Christ becomes apparent. And we can understand
> that God loves us, all of us, no matter what.
>
> And that our purpose is to be like the Father--to love all no matter
> if they think that we are animals or torture us. That's the challenge.
> Arguing about absolution or confession to me seems absurd
> in the face of man's inhumanity to man.
>
> S~
Andrew
•R L Measures
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:26:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.how> wrote:
>
> >>That's quite right, jw, and exactly what I said. I suspect that you
consider
> >>"that next sin" as not "continues to". It's called a mortal sin if
it breaks
>
> >Interesting. I don't find any passages in the Bible that use the words
> >"mortal sin". Where is that found?
>
> It's referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". It will never be
> forgiven in the life to come (purgatory) or Heaven. Mat 12:32. Have you ever
> read Matthew?
>
• The gospel according to Matthew was likely written c. AD65. In 1545,
the Roman church was authorized to make any change it saw fit to any
gospel, and that change would be auto-approved by the Roman Catholic diety
as well as his mom. Since the RCC currently teaches that the Blessed
perpetial Virgin Mary is fully capable of granting Any prayer request,
bad-mouthing the Holy Spirit should be no problema whatsoever provided
that one does a few Novenae from time to time.
•R L Measures
<no...@nunya.com> wrote:
** What is God-Jesus?
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:09:44 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>
>
>>AMEN, BROTHER.................. the romanist religion HAS indeed
>>changed the Ten Commandments TO SUIT THEIR OWN EVIL AGENDA.
>
>You really are an ignorant ass, MORE ignorant than most Christians.,
>
Thank you, and the same to you.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
Andrew-
you should read their false prayers and chants in the 'Little Office
of Mary'...........
http://www.medjugorje.org/lofficep.htm
In that thing you'll see where romanists declare themselves her
servants, and they devote themselves TO her....
The following is part of their Sunday morning false-piety performance:
"It is truly right to bless you, O God-bearing One, as the
ever-blessed and immaculate Mother of our God. More honorable
than the cherubim and by far more glorious than the seraphim;
ever a virgin, you gave birth to God the Word, O true Mother
of God, we magnify you."
and
"Truly, you are blessed among women. For you have changed
Eve's curse into a blessing; and Adam, who hitherto lay under
a curse, has been blessed because of you."
and
"If he whom you are to bear is truly God made flesh, then rightly do
we call you God's mother. For you have truly given birth to
God."
and
"O Virgin Mary, no other daughter of Jerusalem is your
equal, for you are the mother of the King of kings, you are
the Queen of heaven and of angels."
This one REALLY gripes me:
"Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day; Mary the Gate,
Christ the Heavenly Way! Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic
Vine; Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine! Mary the Wheat,
Christ the Living-Bread; Mary the Stem, Christ the Rose
blood-red! Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood; Mary
the Cup, Christ the Saving Blood! Mary the Temple, Christ the
temple's Lord; Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored! Mary
the Beacon, Christ the Haven's Rest; Mary the Mirror, Christ
the Vision Blest! Mary the Mother, Christ the mother's Son;
By all things blest while endless ages run."
^^^^^^^^ I note here how Mary is always mentioned FIRST; Jesus second…
romanists ALWAYS try to place Jesus on the back burner.
Please do download the entire thing---- in it, you'll find NUMEROUS
references to their idolizing her.
May God bless you and yours.
Andrew
> "Andrew" wrote:
Interesting! Those who should have know better did the SAME thing
in the old testament times also - in the worship of Baal and Ashtoreth,
who was *Queen of Heaven*..a title which Catholics ascribe to Mary.
"Ashtoreth is the Queen of Heaven to whom the Canaanites
had burned incense." -- Encyclopedia Britannica
"They forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth [Queen
of Heaven]." Judges 2:13
"The children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and
served Baalim, and Ashtaroth [Queen of Heaven]. "
Judges 10:6
"Solomon went after Ashtoreth [Queen of Heaven] the goddess of
the Zidonians..and Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD."
1 Kings 11:5,6
"And they cried unto the LORD, and said, We have sinned, because
we have forsaken the LORD, and have served Baalim and Ashtaroth
[Queen of Heaven]: but now deliver us out of the hand of our enemies,
and we will serve thee." 1 Samuel 12:10
> The following is part of their Sunday morning false-piety performance:
>
> "It is truly right to bless you, O God-bearing One, as the
> ever-blessed and immaculate Mother of our God. More honorable
> than the cherubim and by far more glorious than the seraphim;
> ever a virgin, you gave birth to God the Word, O true Mother
> of God, we magnify you."
>
> and
> "Truly, you are blessed among women. For you have changed
> Eve's curse into a blessing; and Adam, who hitherto lay under
> a curse, has been blessed because of you."
>
> and
> "If he whom you are to bear is truly God made flesh, then rightly do
> we call you God's mother. For you have truly given birth to
> God."
>
> and
>
> "O Virgin Mary, no other daughter of Jerusalem is your
> equal, for you are the mother of the King of kings, you are
> the Queen of heaven and of angels."
This is the same thing as when the Israelites worshipped
Ashtoreth, which was an abomination in the sight of God.
> This one REALLY gripes me:
>
> "Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day; Mary the Gate,
> Christ the Heavenly Way! Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic
> Vine; Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine! Mary the Wheat,
> Christ the Living-Bread; Mary the Stem, Christ the Rose
> blood-red! Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood; Mary
> the Cup, Christ the Saving Blood! Mary the Temple, Christ the
> temple's Lord; Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored! Mary
> the Beacon, Christ the Haven's Rest; Mary the Mirror, Christ
> the Vision Blest! Mary the Mother, Christ the mother's Son;
> By all things blest while endless ages run."
>
> ^^^^^^^^ I note here how Mary is always mentioned FIRST; Jesus second.
> romanists ALWAYS try to place Jesus on the back burner.
>
>
>
> Please do download the entire thing---- in it, you'll find NUMEROUS
> references to their idolizing her.
But as ancient Israel put away this abominable practice in the times of
Samuel, then there surely is hope for our Catholic friends that they also
may put away this abomination.
"And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return
unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and
Ashtaroth [Queen of Heaven] from among you, and prepare your hearts
unto the LORD, and serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the
hand of the Philistines. Then the children of Israel did put away Baalim
and Ashtaroth [Queen of Heaven], and served the LORD only."
1 Samuel 7:3,4
>
> May God bless you and yours.
Thanks, and to you also.
Andrew
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
You posted some excellent points, Andrew, and I thank you. Praise God
for your truthful witness, Brother :o)
Alan Ferris
wrote:
>>
>> You worship a man, Christians worship God.
>>
>
>And there is the Catholic practice of the worship of the BVM,
>as stated below by a Catholic theologian...
So, I worship my parents, am I condemned for that?
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
Andrew
> "Andrew" wrote:
>>>
>>> You worship a man, Christians worship God.
>>>
>>
>>And there is the Catholic practice of the worship of the BVM,
>>as stated below by a Catholic theologian...
>
> So, I worship my parents, am I condemned for that?
True, there are various nuances of the word "worship" which Catholic
apologists try to dance around trying to justify the worshipping of the
BVM. But please hear what this former nun has to say about this.
"Catholic theologians speak of three degrees of homage, which have Latin
words. "Latria" is the kind of worship which is due to God alone. "Dulia"
is appropriate for honoring the saints. "Hyperdulia" is appropriate for hon-
oring Mary. It is higher than "dulia" but not "latria". Therefore, Catholic
theologians say that Catholics do not worship Mary.
"However, in the practical, down-to-earth, real world, these theological
distinctions don't work. Most Catholics have never heard of these words.
Of those who have, how many know how to apply them in practical ways?
Catholics are not told how to engage in "hyperdulia" without crossing a line
that results in actually practicing "latria" towards Mary without realizing it."
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
>
> --
> Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
>
> ()'.'.'()
> ( (T) )
> ( ) . ( )
> (")_(")
Andrew
BAM
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:2bsfg2dsl6q0m2vne...@4ax.com...
Joh 2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My
hour is not yet come.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do
ye.
BAM
duke
>"Mike Dundee" wrote in message news:veGNg.370$Ij....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>> "duke" wrote:
>> <snipped>
>> You worship a man, Christians worship God.
>And there is the Catholic practice of the worship of the BVM,
>as stated below by a Catholic theologian...
No there isn't. You're just being a hateful liar.
duke
>> Then you don't care about the NT.
>You worship a man, Christians worship God.
I'm a Christian. I worship God and only God almighty.
duke
>>It's referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". It will never be
>>forgiven in the life to come (purgatory) or Heaven.
>First, there is no purgatory.
First, scripture indicates there is. It's for the purification of the soul from
it's sinful nature before one can stand in the presence of God face to face.
>Second, no Christian is capable of committing "blasphemy of the Holy
>Spirit." In fact, the prevailing view-- as far as I know-- is that no
>one today can commit "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin against God. Murder, adultery,
cursing god, self love, failing to love one another as Jesus loves us, etc.
Dying with these mortal sins on your soul will never get you to purgatory.
You must go to confession to get them removed before you die. For they will not
be forgiven and removed either in this or the age to come. And we know that
only purity can stand before God.
>AGAIN, I would never take the word of a Roman Catholic on ANY topic of
>scripture, theology, or doctrine.
Nor will you believe scripture.
>I see no instance of pope worship as you practice it in the New
>Testament.
We don't. Surprise.
>And stop pretending to exert or exercise "authority". Neither you nor
>your anti-Christ cult have any authority.
Just that given by Christ.
duke
Any prayer request? Only in passing it on to Jesus, her son.
•R L Measures
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:15:20 -0700, r...@somis.org (•R L Measures) wrote:
>
> >In article <tt9eg2pgs3g8cnftp...@4ax.com>, duke
> ><duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 06:26:58 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yoo.how> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>That's quite right, jw, and exactly what I said. I suspect that you
> >consider
> >> >>"that next sin" as not "continues to". It's called a mortal sin if
> >it breaks
> >>
> >> >Interesting. I don't find any passages in the Bible that use the words
> >> >"mortal sin". Where is that found?
> >>
> >> It's referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". It will never be
> >> forgiven in the life to come (purgatory) or Heaven. Mat 12:32. Have
you ever
> >> read Matthew?
> >>
> >• The gospel according to Matthew was likely written c. AD65. In 1545,
> >the Roman church was authorized to make any change it saw fit to any
> >gospel, and that change would be auto-approved by the Roman Catholic diety
> >as well as his mom. Since the RCC currently teaches that the Blessed
> >perpetial Virgin Mary is fully capable of granting Any prayer request,
> >bad-mouthing the Holy Spirit should be no problema whatsoever provided
> >that one does a few Novenae from time to time.
>
> Any prayer request? Only in passing it on to Jesus, her son.
• Good boys always do what their mom wants.
NOs...@no.spam
<mcca...@blahblahbellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>Joh 2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My
>hour is not yet come.
>Joh 2:5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do
>ye.
>
>
^^^^^nothing to do with the topic at hand, idiot
Mike Dundee
"BAM" <mcca...@blahblahbellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:DkXNg.20402$Ca4....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
Yeah whatsoever Jesus said, they were to do.
Not whatsoever Mary said.
Mike Dundee
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:09:31 GMT, "Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote:
>
>>> Then you don't care about the NT.
>>You worship a man, Christians worship God.
>
> I'm a Christian. I worship God and only God almighty.
Ummm "Hail Mary, mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth"
You don't call that worship?
BAM
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:sukgg2t0bphgdufiq...@4ax.com...
Surely, you're not that obtuse are you doc?
BAM
BAM
"Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:zyZNg.757$vJ2...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
........................at Mary's request.
BAM
Ya'betz
"Mike Dundee" <no...@nunya.com> wrote in message
news:zyZNg.757$vJ2...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
meaning the hour of His death. Figure that one out.
>
>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
duke
>Mary and 'the woman' attended that wedding. "My hour is not yet come"
>meaning the hour of His death. Figure that one out.
He turned the water into wine even though the had not yet risen to the Father.
Mike Dundee
And Mary telling the waiters to listen to her son proves what exactly?
duke
No.
Hail Mary - Luke 1:28
Mother of God - Luke 1:43
Queen of Heaven - Rev 12
and Earth - not used by Catholics.
duke
>>I'm a Christian. I worship God and only God almighty.
>Oxymoron. You have NO proof, and lots of evidence pointing
>the OTHER way, of Jesus being God.
But Jesus isn't the Father and isn't the Holy Spirit. Now what?
duke
>>>First, there is no purgatory.
>>First, scripture indicates there is.
>No, it does not.
Yes, it does.
> It's for the purification of the soul from
>>it's sinful nature before
>Anyone who has accepted the blood of Christ as substitute for our own
>needs not "be further purified."
Not scriptural, whereas purgatory is.
>What yuo preach is heresy.
You call it heresy, we call it scripture.
duke
>>First, scripture indicates there is.
>What scripture?
Rev 21:27: "…nothing unclean will enter heaven…"
Mat 5:8: "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God"
Heb 12:14: "strive…for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord".
Mat 5:48: "…be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
Now here's the kicker.
Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone
who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or
in the age to come.
What age to come? "Speaking against the Son of Man" forgiven in the age to come
and "nothing unclean will enter heaven" are contradictory terms in scripture if
there is nothing in between.
Note:
Matthew 12
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone
who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or
in the age to come.
Speaking against the Son of Man (man) can be forgiven in the next age. Anyone
who speaks against the Holy Spirit (God) will not be forgiven in the next age.
Now Rev 21:27 says: "…nothing unclean will enter heaven…". That means there is
an age to come that is short of heaven because sins can be forgiven there
whereas no sin enters heaven.
>> It's for the purification of the soul from
>>it's sinful nature before one can stand in the presence of God face to face.
>Jesus DIED for our sins, why would anyone need 'purification'?
God said so.
>>You must go to confession to get them removed before you die.
>Jesus taught that WHERE?
John 20:22-23.
>>Nor will you believe scripture.
>The Catholic Church doesn't teach scripture.
The RCC is fully scriptural.