"National Cathedral"
John Anderson
this morning (Sunday). I have often wondered what
this "National Cathedral" was, the official US Government
Church, or as I found, only one of at least two churches
in Washington which have "National" in their names.
The "National Cathedral" is an Episcopalian church,
the American arm of the Church of England, which is a
state church.
The other "National" church is the National Shrine of
the Imaculate Conception, a Catholic church, which I
hope never becomes a state church, even though I am
a Catholic. We have a constitution which garranties
freedom of religion and separation of church and state.
Indeed the Holy Father has forbidden members of the
clergy from being part of the government. The clergy
could hardly be free to be critical of the government,
if they are a part of it. Also, heaven forbid that this
new govenment in Washington would seek to define
dogma for all Americans in any matter!
John Anderson
West Point, Iowa USA
JCarew
Never forget your part of a Catholic minority living
in a country with a large Protestant majority when
you get right down to it. If the Prod,s want to have
a "National Cathedral" so be it. I think your going to
see a lot of attempts by Bush to mix the Protestant
Church and State after all from what Iv seen and
heard he is a Bob Jones U type Fundie. Other than
some token gestures for political reasons( like his
letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
Jim Carew sfo
John Anderson <john...@xxxxxxx.net> wrote in message
>The new president attended the "National Cathedral"
>this morning (Sunday). I have often wondered what
>this "National Cathedral" was, the official US Government
>Church, or as I found, only one of at least two churches
>in Washington which have "National" in their names.
>
>The "National Cathedral" is an Episcopalian church,
>the American arm of the Church of England, which is a
>state church.
>
>The other "National" church is the National Shrine of
>the Immaculate Conception, a Catholic church, which I
>hope never becomes a state church, even though I am
>a Catholic. We have a constitution which guaranties
>freedom of religion and separation of church and state.
>Indeed the Holy Father has forbidden members of the
>clergy from being part of the government. The clergy
>could hardly be free to be critical of the government,
>if they are a part of it. Also, heaven forbid that this
>new government in Washington would seek to define
serap...@my-deja.com
"John Anderson" <john...@xxxxxxx.net> wrote:
> The new president attended the "National Cathedral"
> this morning (Sunday). I have often wondered what
> this "National Cathedral" was, the official US Government
> Church,
No, the national cathedral has no official connections with the US
government, not does any other place of worship, by law.
The national catherdral was bulit and financed by the Episcopalians, as
a sort of non-denominational house of worship. Yes they paid for it,
and own it, but any sect may use it if they make the arrangements.
or as I found, only one of at least two churches
> in Washington which have "National" in their names.
>
> The "National Cathedral" is an Episcopalian church,
> the American arm of the Church of England, which is a
> state church.
>
> The other "National" church is the National Shrine of
> the Imaculate Conception, a Catholic church, which I
> hope never becomes a state church, even though I am
> a Catholic. We have a constitution which garranties
> freedom of religion and separation of church and state.
> Indeed the Holy Father has forbidden members of the
> clergy from being part of the government. The clergy
> could hardly be free to be critical of the government,
> if they are a part of it. Also, heaven forbid that this
> new govenment in Washington would seek to define
> dogma for all Americans in any matter!
>
> John Anderson
> West Point, Iowa USA
>
>
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Karen Horn
: The new president attended the "National Cathedral"
:
I wouldn't particularly sweat it.
Karen
Karen Horn
: heard he is a Bob Jones U type Fundie. Other than
: some token gestures for political reasons( like his
: letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
: speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
: Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
:
: Jim Carew sfo
Boo-hoo==="I feel your pain."
The truth is the Bush administration will be FAR more "Catholic"
if you want to call it that in as much as he is not an abortion
rights lover as was your little fat headed friend AlBore.
KAren
:
: John Anderson <john...@xxxxxxx.net> wrote in message
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
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:
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JCarew
Karen Horn <kah...@king.cts.com> wrote in message
>JCarew <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: heard he is a Bob Jones U type Fundie. Other than
>: some token gestures for political reasons( like his
>: letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
>: speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
>: Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
> Boo-hoo==="I feel your pain."
> The truth is the Bush administration will be FAR more "Catholic"
> if you want to call it that in as much as he is not an abortion
> rights lover as was your little fat headed friend AlBore.
I happen to agree with Bush as far as he goes with regards to
abortion.
Jim Carew sfo
Fred Goodwin, CMA
<94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>:
>I think your going to see a lot of attempts by Bush to mix the
>Protestant Church and State after all from what Iv seen and
>heard he is a Bob Jones U type Fundie.
If he's the fundamentalist you say he is, why attend mass at an episcopal
church? Kinda blows your whole theory, doesn't it?
--
========================================================================
* Fred Goodwin, CMA Dallas Cowboys Training Camp Page *
* fgoo...@yahoo.com http://www.eden.com/~fgoodwin/cowboys.htm *
========================================================================
JCarew
Fred Goodwin, CMA <fgoo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9030C5...@204.127.36.1...
>"JCarew" <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in
><94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>:
>>I think your going to see a lot of attempts by Bush to mix the
>>Protestant Church and State after all from what Iv seen and
>>heard he is a Bob Jones U type Fundie.
>If he's the fundamentalist you say he is, why attend mass at an episcopal
>church? Kinda blows your whole theory, doesn't it?
Not really he's a politician it makes him look good in a lot of
quarters. It sends a message to us Catholics, don't forget
this is a Protestant Country run by Protestants
Jim Carew sfo
FTT
JCarew wrote:
Bullshit Carew...!!! Who the hell cares?
It's just your ever present martyre complex
over working.
FTT
FTT
John Anderson wrote:
Neither The National Cathedral nor Episcopalianism
are The State Church of The USA. The Anglican Church
of Canada is not The State Church of Canada. The only
Anglican Church in the World wide Anglican Communion
which has that status is the Church of England. It seems by
"sleight of hand" sir you are trying to be deceptive here and
feed the gristmill of twits like Carew.
Heaven forbid that anyone would want to live under
dogma "defining" as Quebecers suffered in the "old days"
of the last and preceeding centuries by the RC Church,
behind the scene and up front, in deciding life for all
in the province.
Any wonder that most modern Francophone Quebecers
have any use for the Church which then , if not in
Law, but in fact and practice, was the National Church of Quebec.
FTT
Karen Horn
: JMJ
:
:
:
Oh, nuts....MOST people in the country are protestant. It's just a fact-
nothing to get paranoid over. GW is Methodist. Brother Jeb convert
to Catholicism GHWB is Episcopal, Bar is a Presbyterian. As are a
lot of protestant families---they are fairly all over the map. I would
rather the president be a good "something" than a nothing!
Karen
Stephanie D. Rendino
>Heaven forbid that anyone would want to live under
>dogma "defining" as Quebecers suffered in the "old days"
>of the last and preceeding centuries by the RC Church,
>behind the scene and up front, in deciding life for all
>in the province.
>
>Any wonder that most modern Francophone Quebecers
>have any use for the Church which then , if not in
>Law, but in fact and practice, was the National Church of Quebec.
Yo yo yo, let me speak on dis. (Cause I live in Quebec.)
After the 18th century, the Catholic Church was *not* the national
church of Quebec. The English had taken over and Anglicanism was the
law of the land. The Catholic Church declared itself the protector of
French culture in Quebec, but unfortunately it did so by urging
everybody to stay out in the countrysides with 8th grade educatations
at best, unless they were becoming priests and religious. Laval
University in Quebec City was the only university in the province that
francophones could attend (they were banned from McGill) and
Universite' de Montreal wouldn't be built by the diocese until the
1950s.)
(By the way, I often hear people sigh about how moral everybody would
be in an all-Catholic society where everybody goes to church
regularly. This experiment has been tried here, and the illegitimacy
rate was still estimated at 40%.)
In the 1950s things started to change when the Duplessis government,
allegedly ruling with the Church, took all its hospitals, orphanages,
schools, etc away. In the 60s was Vatican II. Cardinal Leger, who
had gone through some sort of conversion from being right-wing to
being left-wing, begged Paul VI not to issue Humanae Vitae because it
was too harsh. When it was issued anyway, he quit his job and went to
Africa to work with lepers. In the 1970s there was the Quiet
Revolution during which everyone went to U de M (and later UQaM) and
became an intellectual atheist.
I wouldn't say that Quebec has "no use" for the Church. The Church is
trying to figure out what its role is now. The theology department
at the University of Montreal is large and busy and there are 40
seminarians at the Grand Seminaire. The English Catholic churches are
quite well attended (those are populated mostly by people of Irish
descent who have their own story).
SumBuny4Me
"JCarew" <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
. Other than
> some token gestures for political reasons( like his
> letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
> speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
> Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
Isn't his brother, Jeb Bush, a Catholic? If so, then perhaps he will, at
least, not be anti-Catholic.
--
Buny
Mcc6050
>The new president attended the "National Cathedral"
>this morning (Sunday). I have often wondered what
>this "National Cathedral" was, the official US Government
>Church, or as I found, only one of at least two churches
>in Washington which have "National" in their names.
The National Cathedral is a privately financed and privately built Episcopalian
church. "National" is included in its name because it's in the Capitol. It
has NO connection with the government.
>The other "National" church is the National Shrine of
>the Imaculate Conception, a Catholic church, which I
>hope never becomes a state church, even though I am
>a Catholic.
As with the word "National" as part of the name of the Episcopalian church,
"National" as in National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is included only
to indicate that it's in the Capitol. It, too, has no connection with the
government.
Mac
Fred Goodwin, CMA
<20010122170229...@ng-fr1.aol.com>:
But why allow a few inconvenient facts to ruin a perfectly good rant??!!
Matt Owen
religiously. The President's father, the elder President Bush is an
Anglican (hardly so far a stretch from the RCC so as to prevent the two
communions from getting along well), his brother is (I think) a Roman
Catholic. I don't know where W. himself worships.
Frankly, though, conspiracy theories about anti-Catholic sentiments in the
White House because the President attended an Episcopal parish last
Sunday...are ridiculous.
Caritas, Obedientia et Pax
Matt Owen
Anglican staring across the Tiber
JCarew <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Alan W. Craft
>
>
>"JCarew" <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>. Other than
>> some token gestures for political reasons( like his
>> letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
>> speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
>> Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
>
>
>Isn't his brother, Jeb Bush, a Catholic? If so, then perhaps he will, at
>least, not be anti-Catholic.
Is he a Catholic's Catholic, or a Southern Baptist's Catholic?
~THAT~ is the question.
Alan
Alan W. Craft
>
>
>"JCarew" <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>. Other than
>> some token gestures for political reasons( like his
>> letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
>> speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
>> Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
>
>
>Isn't his brother, Jeb Bush, a Catholic? If so, then perhaps he will, at
>least, not be anti-Catholic.
No! Wait! Isn't it only his wife who's Catholic?
I believe it is.
Alan
Alan Ferris
Do you know it was about 2 years before people learned about the
faiths of the leader and his wife in England. Wonder why we are not
bothered but America spends so much time worrying about what faith the
third cousin is?
--
Alan Ferris
eligo, ergo sum Atheist #1211
EAC(UK)#252 Ironic Torture Div.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the only colour is black -
the only sound
the broken bell
THEN talk to me about why. Spike Milligan
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ICQ UIN: 12811297
SumBuny4Me
"Alan W. Craft" <Iamasinner.@.hades'portal.net> wrote in message
news:k02q6to21ljmvecpu...@4ax.com...
> >
> >Isn't his brother, Jeb Bush, a Catholic? If so, then perhaps he will, at
> >least, not be anti-Catholic.
>
> Is he a Catholic's Catholic, or a Southern Baptist's Catholic?
>
> ~THAT~ is the question.
OK, you got me confused now (not too hard to do, I'll admit:-). Whose faith
is being questioned in the above-George W or Jeb's?
It is possible to be Catholic and have protestant members of one's family.
I am Catholic, but most of my mother's side of the family is either Church
of Christ or Baptist. While we agree to disagree, and love each other
dearly in spite of our differences, none of us have much effect on each
other's faith-with the exception of not being quite so quick to "condemn to
hell all who do not believe as we do and are therefore 'evil'". Kind of
hard to do so when you are thinking about loved ones.
--
Buny
John...@hotmail.com
George Washington donated the land,
but Congress could not figure out
what to do with the whole church
state seperation issue, so the
episcopalians took the project over..?
But no mention of that on thier web
page..urban myth perhaps.
http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/
Alan W. Craft
>Alan W. Craft <Iamasinner.@.hades'portal.net> wrote ...
>>On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:00:04 GMT, "SumBuny4Me" <rous...@NOSPAMhome.com> emanated:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"JCarew" <Oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>>news:94f6ng$1l5s$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>>>. Other than
>>>> some token gestures for political reasons( like his
>>>> letter to the Archbishop of NY on his Bob Jones U
>>>> speech) I can,t see him caring that much about the
>>>> Catholic Church in this country during his administration.
>>>
>>>
>>>Isn't his brother, Jeb Bush, a Catholic? If so, then perhaps he will, at
>>>least, not be anti-Catholic.
>>
>> No! Wait! Isn't it only his wife who's Catholic?
>>
>>I believe it is.
>
>Do you know it was about 2 years before people learned about the
>faiths of the leader and his wife in England. Wonder why we are not
>bothered but America spends so much time worrying about what faith the
>third cousin is?
Something for you to ponder over your crisps and ale.
Alan
Alan Ferris
I will first have to ponder on who the third cousin is!
9 Volts
<john...@xxxxxxx.net> wrote:
>The clergy
>could hardly be free to be critical of the government,
>if they are a part of it.
Ya, and when they are critical, they have to pay taxes for it.
Mcc6050
>Do you know it was about 2 years before people learned about the
>faiths of the leader and his wife in England. Wonder why we are not
>bothered but America spends so much time worrying about what faith the
>third cousin is?
Good question, for which I for one don't have an answer. The religio-meter
used to test each presidential candidate is mostly a 20th (and now 21st)
century phenonmenon. Early in U.S. history, the religion (or absence thereof)
of national figures wasn't very important. Jefferson, for example, was an
agnostic and several other prominent political figures were very casual about
religion. And the country thrived.
I'm flabbergasted about this worry that Bush's protestantism will in any way
harm Catholics (altho I notice that no one seems worried whether it would also
harm Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.). Just 40 years ago JFK had to deal with
certain narrow-minded bigots who fretted about having a Catholic in the White
House, and now some Catholics seem to be fretting about having a protestant in
the White House. Hasn't been too much progress in developing tolerance, has
there?
Mac
Alan Ferris
>Alan Ferris wrote:
>
>>Do you know it was about 2 years before people learned about the
>>faiths of the leader and his wife in England. Wonder why we are not
>>bothered but America spends so much time worrying about what faith the
>>third cousin is?
>
>Good question, for which I for one don't have an answer. The religio-meter
>used to test each presidential candidate is mostly a 20th (and now 21st)
>century phenonmenon. Early in U.S. history, the religion (or absence thereof)
> of national figures wasn't very important. Jefferson, for example, was an
>agnostic and several other prominent political figures were very casual about
>religion. And the country thrived.
I think very few politicians would allow their faith to rule their
pragmatism. It might affect much of what they believe, but when it
comes down to it, winning is more important.
>I'm flabbergasted about this worry that Bush's protestantism will in any way
>harm Catholics (altho I notice that no one seems worried whether it would also
>harm Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.). Just 40 years ago JFK had to deal with
>certain narrow-minded bigots who fretted about having a Catholic in the White
>House, and now some Catholics seem to be fretting about having a protestant in
>the White House. Hasn't been too much progress in developing tolerance, has
>there?
Certainly not. But then with the many wanting to believe the worst
about the other I do not expect that to change soon.
Go to any religious group, and the ones that are suffering the worst
crossposts and attacks are the christians. Not by other faiths, but
by other christians. I am surprised that the pope has never despaired
of trying to joining them.
Stephen Quist
"Alan W. Craft" <Iamasinner.@.hades'portal.net> wrote in message
news:732q6t4hqcr1n5vd4...@4ax.com...
Steve
Dennis Durel
> example, was an
>agnostic and several other prominent political figures were very
>casual about religion. And the country thrived.
Hardly.
In 1781, Thomas Jefferson made this statement in Query XVIII
of his Notes on the State of Virginia. Excerpts of these statements
are engraved on the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C.:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a
nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis,
a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of
the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?
Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just;
that His justice cannot sleep forever."'
Thomas Jefferson, while being the 3rd President (1801-1809),
chaired the school board for the District of Columbia, where he
authored the first plan of education adopted by the city of
Washington, which used the Bible and Isaac Watts' Hymnal as the
principle books to teach reading to students."
Thomas Jefferson, on April 21, 1803, wrote to Dr. Benjamin
Rush, (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection,
and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by
those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of
Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts
of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he
wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in
preference to all others..."
As far as what he considered separation of Church and State:
On December 3, 1803, it was recommended by President
Thomas Jefferson that the Congress of the United States pass a
treaty with the tribe of the Kaskaskia Indians. Included in this
treaty was the annual support to a Catholic missionary priest of
$100, to be paid out of the Federal treasury. Later in 1806 and 1807,
two other similar treaties were made with the Wyandotte and
Cherokee tribes."'
President Thomas Jefferson also extended three times a 1787
act of Congress in which special lands were designated:
"For the sole use of Christian Indians and the Moravian Brethren
missionaries for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity."
Mcc6050
> Jefferson, for
>> example, was an
>>agnostic and several other prominent political figures were very
>>casual about religion.
>Hardly. <snip of several quotes, for brevity>
Thank you for posting the quotes. I had been taught that Jefferson was
agnostic, but your quotes sent me on a quick survey of some of the
literature--- I believe you are correct, that Jefferson believed in God.
I agree that at least from middle life on Jefferson believed in God, did not
doubt His existence. Apparently, Jefferson in his middle years went through a
spiritual transformation. Paul S. Conkin, a presenter at a 1992 Jefferson
Symposium, U of VA, made a contribution to Peter S. Onuf's book, "Jefferson
Legacies" in which he wrote:
"After tracing Jefferson's early religious training by Anglican clerics
through...his early political years of critical agnosticism...", and then
Conklin went on discuss Jefferson's coming (back?) to believing in God.
Jefferson seems to be considered a deist by many, I gather, as some question
whether he was Christian, in the sense of believing Christ was divine. He was
skeptical or wary of organized religion, however, and believed that over the
centuries since Christ lived, the teachings of Christ were corrupted or buried
in the countless writings of various philosophers/theologians.
I was interested to learn about his authoring "The Life and Morals of Jesus of
Nazareth", known also as the Jefferson Bible. As you might know, Jefferson
extracted from the Gospels the essence of what he thought was Christ's
moral/ethical teaching, to reveal what he believed had been corrupted by
centuries of organized Christianity. The Jefferson Bible sounds fascinating.
Thanks for your post----it opened an interesting door.
Mac
JCarew
Dennis Durel <dcd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>mcc...@aol.com (Mcc6050) wrote
From what your saying Thomas Jefferson was a bigger hypocrite
than I thought compare the following:
The following quotes are from a series of articles in the "Bodega Bay
and West County Navigator", March 2-8, 1997 by Bill Eldon.
And here are some quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of Virginia, in the year, 1786
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has
been the effect of this coercion? To make one-half the world fools and
the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
and his letter to Thomas Whittermore, June 5, 1822:
"Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions,
through all the ages has made Christendom a slaughterhouse, and
divided it into sects of inextinguishable hatred for one another."
Jim Carew sfo
Dennis Durel
<94sr2g$i448$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com>:
If you read more about Jefferson you would know that it was not Jesus
and His doctrine that Jefferson rejected, but it was the
interpretation and misuse of that doctrine, the Church of England,
for example, which persecuted Christians, that he rejected.
Notice the last line that you quoted, "divided it into sects of
in extinguishable hatred for one another"
Jesus did not found "sects". They were founded by men, especially
when the Protestant revolt against the Church and the doctrine of
"scripture alone" resulted in thousands of sects, which are still
forming today.