Catholics Take a Stand Against Bullies in Israel
Debunks
what is right in this day of genuflecting toward Tel Aviv:
Vatican Official Miffed at Israel
By Sari Bashi
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, July 20, 1999; 2:48 a.m. EDT
TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) -- A papal representative shocked listeners at a
conference on anti-Semitism by saying that Israel is to blame for tensions
between Jews and the Catholic Church.
COMMENT: Indeed she is. Apparently there are people there who feel it is an
opportune time to revert to those thrilling days of yesteryear when Christians
were denounced, arrested, and murdered by anti-Christian Jewish bigots....They
must be longing for the days of Domitian and Stalin..
The Rev. David Yager said at the conference Monday that Roman Catholic
institutions are no longer anti-Semitic
COMMENT: They never were!
and that Israel's anti-Catholic
attitude is preventing relations from warming as Israel prepares to greet
millions of Christian pilgrims at the start of the new millennium.
COMMENT: We have seen an example of this warm welcome recently when I read of
a proposed law which was passed concerning Christians who try to proselytize
in Israel: A sentence of 5 years imprisonment! And this law was passed on
Christmas day, adding insult to injury@!, according to the Jewish Publication,
JEWISH CURRENTS in the column written by Jonathan Harris. This law was
apparently passed in the mid-seventies.
The priest, who represents the Holy See on a bilateral committee to improve
relations with Israel, said that Jewish mistrust of Catholics was
unjustified and that Israel was creating antagonism. He claimed, for
example, that the commonly used Hebrew word for Jesus, Yeshu, is actually
an acronym for ``May his name and memory be erased.''
COMMENT: In fact, this is exactly how Christ is referred to in the Talmud and
other Jewish writings. And other references to Christ, His Holy Mother, and
Christians in general are far worse to the point of blasphemy. These insults
were pointed out to Christian Scholars in the Middle Ages by Jewish apostates
who converted to Christianity.
Jewish researchers suggest that Yeshu is merely the Hebrew corruption of
the Greek version of ``Joshua,'' believed to be Jesus' birth name; or that
it is the shortened version of the Hebrew word ``Yeshua,'' which means
savior.
COMMENT: Who cares what they suggest? It is a lie. There is a Jewish Hate
Diatribe written in the Middle Ages entitled "Sefer Toldoth YESHU," where the
most revolting blasphemous insults were written concerning the life of Jesus
and His Holy Mother. It is claimed therein,-- and please note that these
opinions were based upon long existing Jewish traditions in this matter, that
the Mother of the Messiah was a menstruating adulteress when she conceived the
Messiah. And this is only the tip of the iceberg!
The mutual recriminations are hampering preparations for the millions of
Catholics expected to visit Israel next year, particularly if the Pope
fulfills his announced desire to visit the Holy Land in March of 2000.
COMMENT: Let whatever happens, happen. It is long overdue.
``The Catholic Church and the Jewish people are now allies, friends and
lovers,'' Yager said.
But, he said, Israel has angered the Vatican by refusing to acknowledge
Catholic overtures of friendship, including recent official declarations
against anti-Semitism.
COMMENT: Give them time...the Vatican will learn, just as I and others have
learned in this and other ng's..
He said Israel aimed to keep the Vatican on the defensive, pointing to
Israeli reminders of Pope Pius XII's alleged failure to speak out against
Nazi atrocities during World War II, which he called a ``blood libel.''
COMMENT: Of course it is, but libel means nothing to these people unless they
imagine it is directed against themselves. Disbelieve it? I will be more than
happy to post the relevant passages with all citations.
Israel has sharply criticized a proposal in the Vatican to beatify Pius,
the last step before making him a saint, saying his public silence on the
genocide of 6 million Jews facilitated collaboration with the Nazis.
COMMENT: Who gives a damn about their silly, hateful criticisms? Pius will be
canonized and all the howling in Israel will never prevent it. Only two Popes
in the entire history of the Catholic Church were graced with a vision of
Christ the Messiah-Peter, and Pius XII. So, the Jews can reject the
beatification and canonization just as they reject the Messiah--Catholics will
be unconcerned.
The Vatican says Pius acted for Jews behind the scenes, and that public
activism would have endangered Catholic lives.
COMMENT: This is a fact.
Jewish participants said Yager was glossing over 2,000 years of Catholic
anti-Semitism.
COMMENT: A Jewish BLOOD LIBEL against Christianity. Jews, in fact, were the
first among those to persecute early Christians unto death, beginning with:
Christ the Messiah
St. Stephen
St. Barnabas
St. Polycarp
St. Pionius
St. Paul (Almost murdered on numerous occasions. Beaten, scourged, etc.)
Hundreds of Jewish Christians murdered by Bar Kokba with the blessing of Rabbi
Akiba, who himself was later executed by the Romans.
It is a fact that Jews orchestrated massive denunciations and persecutions of
Christians in the first two centuries AD in an effort to exterminate the
unwelcome rival which supplanted the Old Covenant with the New.
``Our questions, our desires to search the truth are not blood libelous,''
said an angry Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League.
COMMENT: A very poor attempt at humor.
Foxman praised efforts by the current pope, John Paul II, to remove
anti-Semitism from Catholic liturgy, but said the message was not filtering
down to churches at the grass-roots level.
COMMENT: In other words, these people expect Catholics to censor and delete
the entire New Testament! Anything these Jews object to, is to be expunged!
``We both have responsibilities that we haven't fulfilled,'' he said,
suggesting that levels of anti-Semitism were still higher-than-average
among Catholics.
COMMENT: It is their responsibility to acknowledge and atone for the numerous
crimes, offenses, and insults committed against Catholics and Christians
throughout the world, from the time of Christ to the role played by Jewish
executioners and persecutors of Christians in Soviet Russia, Poland and the
Eastern Bloc, to present day anti-Christian legislation passed in Israel.
Christians are owed an apology and restitution. Catholics and Christians
should also DEMAND that insulting and blasphemous references made in the
Talmud, Sefer Toldoth Yeshu and other Jewish Books and Commentaries, be
stricken from the volumes or that a full page renunciation and apology for
these offenses be included with all new edtions of the same.
The Vatican and Israel established full diplomatic relations in 1993,
reaching a peak in efforts to reconcile the Jewish people and the Roman
Catholic church.
But relations remain strained.
COMMENT: Thanks to Israel, who apparently wishes for Christians to genuflect
in the direction of Tel Aviv, yet are unwilling to acknowledge their own seedy
role in these disturbed relations over the centuries.
Rabbi David Rosen, an ADL representative to the Israel-Holy See committee,
said that after 2,000 years of church-sanctioned anti-Semitism, it would
take time for Jews to regain trust in the Vatican.
COMMENT: Rather, it will take the WORLD time to regain trust in Israel!
``The major educational onus is on the Catholic side,'' he said, noting,
for example, that many priests still believe that suffering was brought
upon the Jewish people because they rejected Jesus -- although that
doctrine was officially renounced in the 1960s, with the Vatican II council.
COMMENT: Vatican II does not and never DID speak for the majority of
Catholics. The New Testament as well as the Old are quite explicit as to the
guilt incurred by those Jews who rejected the Messiah and brought about His
murder as well as the murder of the Saints and martyrs--from Rome to Soviet
Russia.
Rosen said that planned visits by Catholic pilgrims next year represent an
opportunity for education on both sides.
COMMENT: Well, let's wait and see what form that "education" will take.
© Copyright 1999 The Associated Press
Debunks
>From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 10:51 AM EDT
>Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990722...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>
>
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>Your anti-semitism is not welcome here, and I don't believe a Church
>official would ever say something so bluntly. It smells of fabrication.
>
>SF
>
>Communion
>Canadian Catholic Site: Message boards, file library, email lists, etc
>http://www.catholic-forum.com/communion/
>
>
>
>
>
BYW, here is something else for you. You need an education:
A loyal supporter just sent me this excerpt:
Cardinal O'Connor,Stated that Stephen Dubner,has my blessing to leave the one
true faith and embrace ,a religion that is Judaism ,a religion thats rejects
Jesus Christ as Lord and
Messiah.The Cardinal further stated his belief that God is smiling on the whole
thing.
Only forty years ago, if a 7-year old Catholic school boy told his religion
teacher that a
Cardinal may give his blessing to a Catholic who embraces Judaism,and that ,God
is smiling on the whole thing. that young boy would have been deemed unfit to
receive his First Communion because of his abysmal ignorance of the Catholic
religion.There
is simply no justification for a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church to make
such a statement,especially on nationwide television Christmas night.
I know that Cardinal,
O Connors office was sent a copy of the May issue of (DELETED--DEBUNKS)
.Whether he saw it or not is anyones guess.The main point of the
article,however , was not to initiate a debate with the Cardinal O Connor since
these debates usually go nowhere. Our goal was to teach Catholic truth to
Catholics who may have been on the receiving end of the Cardinals unorthodox
utterances. It was an egregious public error on the Cardinals part that
demanded a public response. The article served also another function. Many in
high places in todays Catholic Church have fallen for the old Modernist error
that the old Judaic Covenant is still in force, and is a legitimate means of
salvation alongside the New Convenant of Jesus Christ. It is a widespread
problem. As was stated in the May article , the eminent theologian,
Msgr.Clifford Fenton, in 1957, recognized that many Catholic clegymen were
being seduced by this dangerous teaching (which was promoted by modernist Baron
Von Hugel) At the time, Msgr.Fenton targeted and demolished this false thesis,
by explaining fully the words of ST.Peters sermon on the First Pentecost in the
Acts of the Apostles..In this sermon, ST.Peter told practicing,
pious Jews that in order to save their souls, they have to be baptized and
enter Christs new ecclesia. Msgr.Fentons works must be resurrected and
studied, not only to answer curious statements by a lone Cardinal but also to
counter a widespread
problem within the post-Vatican II Church.
COMMENT: Indeed! Msgr. Fenton's impressive, factual statement is mandatory
reading in this day and age, when the Smoke of Satan has infiltrated into every
crack and crevice of the Catholic Church. This is a proper response by REAL
Catholics--not the cowardly lickspittles who today applaud blasphemous and
heretical utterances of those who CALL themselves Catholics, but are NOT--even
if "they" happen to be a Cardinal! The wolves are now amongst the sheep--just
as the Messiah predicted 2,000 years ago. Catholics! The Church has been your
guide and your mentor, as well as the spiritual guide and mentor of your
ancestors
for 2000 years! The good offices of the Church have saved many a soul from the
fires of hell! It is now time for YOU to come to the assistance of the CHURCH
when she needs you most! Resist these heresies which have attached themselves
to the body of the Church in this day of modernism and disbelief and which have
perverted all the teachings and traditions which the Church has held sacred
for two thousand years. Disavow them publicly and at every opportunity! This
may be our final chance to get right with the Lord before His final judgment.
Debunks
>From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 10:51 AM EDT
>Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990722...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>
>
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>Your anti-semitism is not welcome here, and I don't believe a Church
>official would ever say something so bluntly. It smells of fabrication.
>
>SF
>
>Communion
>Canadian Catholic Site: Message boards, file library, email lists, etc
>http://www.catholic-forum.com/communion/
>
>
>
>
Excuse me? I expect a full apology from you. Do not dare to impute
anti-Semitism to me. You were given full citations. The story is true and
accurate and I suuget you get an education before opening your mouth in the
future.
Cfortunato
>Cardinal O'Connor,Stated that Stephen Dubner,has my blessing to leave the one
>true faith and embrace ,a religion that is Judaism ,a religion thats rejects
>Jesus Christ as Lord and
>Messiah.The Cardinal further stated his belief that God is smiling on the
>whole thing.
And why should I accept this post at face value? It is obviously written, and
spun, by someone with a agenda of his own.
Debunks
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 03:06 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990722150616...@ng-fj1.aol.com>
The AP News Service? What agenda could they possibly have other than reporting
the news? This news item IS authentic, I assure you. Did I not include the
source form which it emanated? If you do not believe it, why don't you take a
couple of minutes to verify it with them online?
athanasius
> the news? This news item IS authentic, I assure you. Did I not include the
> source form which it emanated? If you do not believe it, why don't you take a
> couple of minutes to verify it with them online?
Actually, the AP news service, in reporting on the silencing of the homosexual
advocate priest and nun didn't bother to get the facts straight about what the
Church teaches. The article claimed that the Church teaches that homosexuality is
sinful.
Debunks
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 03:56 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37977782...@spam.com>
Well, even if so, and I am unsure of what other subtle points you may be trying
ot make here, this is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The teachings
of the Church and Scriptures are quite explicit regarding homosexuality, which
is included as a form of fornication, which is also condemned. It is not the
idea of the Church to make a pariah out of the homosexual, but merely to stress
that homosexual activities are sinful. One may be a homosexual in theory and
not give in to homosexual desires. When a homosexual does this, they cross the
threshhold of sinful behavior. It is the obligation of the Church to point
this out.
athanasius
> ot make here, this is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The teachings
> of the Church and Scriptures are quite explicit regarding homosexuality, which
> is included as a form of fornication, which is also condemned. It is not the
> idea of the Church to make a pariah out of the homosexual, but merely to stress
> that homosexual activities are sinful. One may be a homosexual in theory and
> not give in to homosexual desires. When a homosexual does this, they cross the
> threshhold of sinful behavior. It is the obligation of the Church to point
> this out.
I never argued that the story didn't occur. I believe that it did. What confused
me were your comments interspersed throughout. I didn't catch on that they were
your comments until your second post on the topic. Your comments were a lot more
acidic than I would expect from a Vatican official.
Debunks
>Message-id: <37986FB1...@spam.com>
After all, I am not a politician.
Debunks
>Date: Thu, 22 July 1999 05:54 PM EDT
>Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990722...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>
>
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>On 22 Jul 1999, Debunks wrote:
>
>>
>> Excuse me? I expect a full apology from you. Do not dare to impute
>> anti-Semitism to me. You were given full citations. The story is true and
>> accurate and I suuget you get an education before opening your mouth in the
>> future.
>
I say that you do.
>You're spreading misinformation about
>Jews.
Shall I post citations directly from the Talmud and the Toldoth Yeshu? Will
you then accuse me of spreading misinformation? Is it "my fault" if you wish
to close your eyes and stamp your feet in a chidish display which people
usually refer to as a temper tantrum simply because things do not go as you
fantasize they ought to? Is it my fault if you are ignorant concerning these
offensive statements which insult Christians all over the world? Do you happen
to know that Church Councils have condemned the Talmud for these reasons, and
ordered it burned and/or confiscated on numerous occasions in the history of
the Church>? I am not so that I suggest these books be confiscated or burned,
but I do demand that these offensive passages be either expunged or apologized
for. What you appear to be condoning is anti-Chistian venom and insults
against Holy Mother Church, and seeing that is the case, (unless I
misunderstand you) I suggest you consider converting to Judaism.
>And even if the story was true, there could only be one motive for
>you spreading such a thing.
Yes, there is only one motive--it is the same motive which prompted this
Vatican official to protest this high-handedness on the part of these Israelis.
Pass your criticisms along to the Vatican. As for me, I say it is high time
that the Church takes a stand against these bullies who rely on buzz words to
push their agenda across to the uninformed and to bully those who disagree with
them into complacency and silence.
>Now get lost.
>
>SF
>
>Communion
Go and convert to Judaism, apostate. I have no intention of getting lost. If
you are Catholic, I suggest you get right with God. Who needs luke-warm,
uninformed Catholics?
"The Smoke of Satan has entered into the Church.--Pope Paul VI
Debunks
>From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
>Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990724...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>
>
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>On 24 Jul 1999, Debunks wrote:
>
>> Shall I post citations directly from the Talmud and the Toldoth Yeshu?
>Will
>> you then accuse me of spreading misinformation?
>
>
>citations refer to Jesus, and most Jews don't consider them to be. It's
>only people who are out to stir trouble who do.
>
>
>
Be specific here and provide us with some examples we can check for ourselves.
And do you believe those Jews who claim that the passages do not refer to Jesus
and Mary? they have EVERY valid reason for denying it. The plain fact is,
some of them are valid references and some are not. Do you deny that the
Talmud was ordered BURNED on numerous occasions after having been examined by
Christians and found to be offsensive as charged? Have you even read the
Toldoth yeshu? I am more than happy to cite examples from some of the most
respected Biblical and Talmudic scholars in this regard. Are you prepared to
do the same?
>
>> Is it "my fault" if you wish
>> to close your eyes and stamp your feet in a chidish display which people
>> usually refer to as a temper tantrum simply because things do not go as you
>> fantasize they ought to?
>
>You mean like you do? I'm not the one sputtering about there's some kind
>of Jewish plot to quash us into silence.
>
I have not thrown any childish fit. You are the one who ordered me to "get
lost," remember?
Have I mentioned ANYTHING about a Jewish plot? The subject of discussion here
are the numerous offensive comments they have made about Christ, His Mother,
and the Church--statements for which they have never apologized for.
>
>> Is it my fault if you are ignorant concerning these offensive statements
>> which insult Christians all over the world?
>
>I am very aware of what people like you say to get back at Jews.
Tell me all about "people like me." You are simply inventing nonsense because
you wish to avoid the real issue here. And I have no desire to"get back at
Jews." Why don;t you give your advice to the Israel Knesset which passed a law
providing for 5 years imprisonment in Israel if Christians/Catholics try to
proselytize? is that your idea of "brotherly love?"
>If Jews
>insult Christians, who cares?
I do. And the Gospels state that Christ Himself cared. And so did the
Apostles. Or perhaps you don't "really" care about them either?
> If Jews hurt your feelings then I suggest
>your pray for thicker skin. You're going to need it in this newsgroup.
Well, I guess the only way this issue will be resolved is for me to begin
posting some of those nasty passages, for you are attempting to minimize these
egregious insults to Christianity. Apparently you are one of those who would
have stood by indifferently when Christ was mocked by the Jews at the time of
His arrest. Now, I am not suggesting that ALL Jews are to blame for this, but
I do have a very solid case to present simply because they have never
apologized for these offensive statements, coupled with their anti-Christian
legislation in Israel today. This issue should be addressed, for I am tired of
their incessant whining in the medai about how "evil" us nasty Christians have
been to them--when the truth is just the opposite. it was the Popes who
protected them from anti-Semitic mobs all throughout the Middle Ages, for
instance. And most likely some of this rage was a result of those comments in
the Talmud and other commentaries. In other cases, no...most likely the
reasons for anti-jewish prejudice stemmed from economic reasons rather than
racial. racial anti-Semitism seems to be a recent phenomenon.
>> Do you happen to know that
>> Church Councils have condemned the Talmud for these reasons, and ordered
>> it burned and/or confiscated on numerous occasions in the history of the
>> Church>?
>
>We are not bound by the disciplinary actions of the Church of the Middle
>Ages.
I have simply asked you a question which should have been answered with a
simple yes or no.
>
>?> I am not so that I suggest these books be confiscated or
>> burned, but I do demand that these offensive passages be either expunged
>> or apologized for.
>
>Who cares? I mean really. There's so much out there that is so much more
>offensive (and blatantly more so) than a vague reference to someone we're
>not even sure is Jesus.
These are not vague references. And we are quite sure of whom they were
referring to. For example, the rabbis often refused to mention Jesus by name,
calling him that "man of perdition" or 'he whose name must never be spoken and
so on. These are not the exact words but very similar. Other texts are much
more explicit.
>
>> What you appear to be condoning is anti-Chistian
>> venom and insults against Holy Mother Church, and seeing that is the
>> case, (unless I misunderstand you) I suggest you consider converting to
>> Judaism.
>
>When Jews or anyone else spews venom against the Church, I just let
>it slide like water off a duck's back.
But that is not what the Apostles wrote in the New Testament. Now, I am not
advocating that any harm come to any individual, Jewish or whomever. My point
is simply that I feel Christians are due an apology--a public apology-for these
comments which are still be published.
It is not right, especially when it is coupled with discriminatory legislation
against Christians in Israel. that makes this sort prejudice appear as if it
is still approved of by the powers that be. On top of that add all of this
whining about the alleged atrocities committed by Christians and demands for
expunging portions of the New testament and so on, and I believe I have a very
valid argument which needs addressing.
>Like the saints did. It's not a big
>deal. Jesus was cursed, too. It didn't stop his work being done.
No, but He was murdered doing it. And so were many Christians courageous
enough to follow His example.
>> >And even if the story was true, there could only be one motive for
>> >you spreading such a thing.
>>
>> Yes, there is only one motive--it is the same motive which prompted this
>> Vatican official to protest this high-handedness on the part of these
>Israelis.
>> Pass your criticisms along to the Vatican. As for me, I say it is high
>> time that the Church takes a stand against these bullies who rely on
>> buzz words to push their agenda across to the uninformed and to bully
>> those who disagree with them into complacency and silence.
>
>Go bait Jews somewhere else. This so-called loyality to the Church is just
>antisemitsm masked as fidelity.
>
That is YOUR opinion, and it is wrong. If you do not wish to address these
issues, fine. Others will. And you do appear to be unfamiliar with the
history of Jewish Christian relations and disputations and so on. perhaps this
is part of the problem, which of course, you deny is a problem.
>
>> >Now get lost.
>> >
>> >SF
>> >
>> >Communion
>>
>> Go and convert to Judaism, apostate.
>
>I affirm my loyalty to the Magisterium and the current Pope, John Paul II
>who is the legitamite Vicar of Christ on Earth. I'm hardly a candidate for
>conversion.
Well, so do I. now where does that lead us. Are you familiar with the Pope's
statement on Jewish-Christian believes? Do you know that it is his opinion
that if Jews do not accept Christ as the Messiah after having been informed of
the Gospel, that they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Of course, this
is not an incitement to bigotry in the least sense, but simply an affirmation
of the Gospel.
>
>> I have no intention of getting lost.
>
>I can't speak for everyone, but I am certain there are a number of people
>who agree with me: your antisemitism is not welcome.
Well sir, let me edify you: I am NOT an anti-Semite. So you and whoever else
thinks like you are in error. I would welcome a mass conversion of the Jews
and accept them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. And that is a fact.
>
>> If
>> you are Catholic, I suggest you get right with God. Who needs luke-warm,
>> uninformed Catholics?
>
>You mean like yourself?
I am quite informed, sir, I can assure you.
>This stuff is baseless propaganda that
>has no raison-d'etre. The Jews are not out to get us, so get over your
>delusions.
I would not put it that way, but nevertheless I disagree with you. It has
been predicted by many seers in the Church that the Jews will accept and hail
the anti-Christ as their Messiah, thus acting as his agents. It has been
foretold that the Anti-Christ may have possibly already been born in Israel in
1980 to a Jewish prostitute and a confirmed Satanist. Whether you believe this
or not is irrelevant to whether it is actually a true prophecy or not, but I
suggest you read the book bty Father Miceli entitled "The Anti-Christ" for a
deeper look into this alarming subject, which if true, certainly makes my
criticisms all the more pertinent and valid.
>
>> "The Smoke of Satan has entered into the Church.--Pope Paul VI
>
>Traditionalists are just another version of cafeteria Catholics.
>
>SF
I see....you are one of those "liberal luke-warm Catholics, then. And do you
accept the apparitions at Fatima as being authentic?
Debunks
>From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
>Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.99072...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>You're the one making the claim that the passages refer to Jesus. It's up
>to *you* to show that there is a historical link.
>
All right then, I accept the challenge. It may take a few days for me to
collate some of this material though, as it is not easily accessible, but I
shall begin to post within this thread asap.
>
>> And do you believe those Jews who claim that the passages do not refer to
>Jesus
>> and Mary? they have EVERY valid reason for denying it. The plain fact is,
>> some of them are valid references and some are not.
>
>
>There's no historical evidence. The Talmud was composed 200 years after
>the birth of Christ, and there's no reason to believe that any of the
>passages refer to Jesus.
Of COURSE there is! And I will prove it to you if you agree in all honesty to
maintain an open mind to the subject, and to use common sense and reason in
evaluating the materials. THe insults began the moment the Messiah was
conceived in His Mother's womb, according to the Apostles who wrote the Gospel,
and Satan's work has been continuing in a similar manner ever since.
>
>> Do you deny that the
>> Talmud was ordered BURNED on numerous occasions after having been examined
>by
>> Christians and found to be offsensive as charged?
>
>Yes, but this was in an age which did not have modern historical methods.
Well, what does that mean, pray tell? either these foul and insulting passages
were written or they were not. If I call your mother a wh*re (I am not, by the
way) what sort of semantic twisting can change this loathesome and insulting
fact, whether it was written 500 years ago or repeated today?
> Have you even read the
>> Toldoth yeshu?
>
>No, but I am familiar with the "charges".
What are they? Are you fluent in Latin?
> I am more than happy to cite examples from some of the most
>> respected Biblical and Talmudic scholars in this regard. Are you prepared
>to
>> do the same?
>
>I don't need to. I could cite respected Biblical and Talmudic authors to
>prove and disprove a number of theses. The fact is the evidence is
>inconclusive.
If that were so, the Church would not have ordered these book confiscated and
burned.--and this after rather lengthy hearings and debates on these issues
during which the Jews were allowed full liberty to respond and tell their
version of the story-and their version was full of distortions, denials, and
perversions of fact.
>We don't know if the individual is in fact Jesus. Most Jews
>don't think so and that's good enough for me.
Most Jews, my friend have EVERY reason to lie and deny. That is a rather weak
and unconvincing argument.
>The only people who ever
>bring it up are antisemites out to get Jews.
>
I see....It is true that anti-Semites DO use these statements to further their
political causes, but I cannot be accused of that because I have absolutely NO
agenda other than truth and my belief that Christ is the Messiah. I have NO
interest in furthering a political or racial againda.
>You come in here ranting about the Jews and expect to believe
>flimsy evidence.
I have not even POSTED the evidence and already you are calling it flimsy?
>> You are the one who ordered me to "get
>> lost," remember?
>
>That's right. Antisemitism has no place in the The Church.
>
I NEVER wrote that it does or did. As one Pope said correctly, as Catholics we
are all spiritual Semites, but Jews would laugh if we referred to ourselves as
the "people of the Covenant."
>'ve seen this kind of thing several times in Jewish newsgroups.
As have I and they love to run from it, and understandably so. It is time for
them to admit and apologize for the horrifying things theie ancestors have said
and done to Christians.
>> And I have no desire to"get back at
>> Jews."
>
>You're ranting about how they want you to be silent, make baseless
>accusations. If your motives were so pure, you wouldn't want them to
>appear so evil.
I did not call them anything. I am simply pointing out pertinent facts which I
believe need to be addressed publicly. Jews had no problem accusing Christ the
Messiah of being insane and posessed by Satan himself. How pure were their
motives at the time?
>
>No, it's not my idea about brotherly love, but then it makes little
>difference to me whether a Jew is just or unjust, I respect them as a
>group, like any other nationality.
>
As do I, but one must not be silent in such a case, or our humanity means
nothing. If we do not defend our religion against lies, then that makes us
complacent Christians.
>
>> >If Jews
>> >insult Christians, who cares?
>>
>> I do. And the Gospels state that Christ Himself cared. And so did the
>> Apostles. Or perhaps you don't "really" care about them either?
>
>No they did not. They said if the Gospel is not welcome shake the dust off
>your feet and move on
That was just ONE comment. Shall I post others? I do not believe you are this
ignorant of the Scriptures.
>Church teaching is not about getting back at people
>who insult us. Let people insult us. Are you so ignorant about the
>writings of the saints that you ignore what it means to be a martyr?
>
>
I do not ignore it at all, but Christ Himself took a whip to the
money-changers, didn't He-and it is UnChristian to be silent in the face of
these moral outrages. That is my opinion.
> Well, I guess the only way this issue will be resolved is for me to begin
>> posting some of those nasty passages, for you are attempting to minimize
>these
>> egregious insults to Christianity. Apparently you are one of those who
>would
>> have stood by indifferently when Christ was mocked by the Jews at the time
>of
>> His arrest.
>
>And you think you would have had more courage than the 11 apostles? I
>think that's presumptuous.
I di dnot say that--but, with the grace provided by the Holy Spirit many of
them later died as glorious martyrs. God forbid that we should ever have to
make that decision. My point is the apostles went right to the Jews--right in
their SYNAGOGUES, and told it like it is. Why should we refuse to follow their
esample today?
>At any rate, Christ said he could send a legion
>of angels to his defence. If Christ were so concerned about this, he
>would not have said "blessed are those who persecute you."
>
>
That also is true, but Christ does not expect us to remain silent in the face
of moral outrages.
>
>> Now, I am not suggesting that ALL Jews are to blame for this, but
>> I do have a very solid case to present simply because they have never
>> apologized for these offensive statements,
>
>So what? The Church hasn't apologized for lots of things.
>
>
Such as? Ar eyou a Catholic? The CHurch has apologized for things gfor which
she bears no guilt whatsoever! Have the Jews done this?
>
>> coupled with their anti-Christian
>> legislation in Israel today.
>
>Then whine about the Israelis. Not all Jews are behind it.
>
I never said there were. Many Jews have converted to Christianity and I regard
them as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
>If you want the Jews to stop saying how evil *you* are then stop sound
>like an antisemite.
It is not antisemitism to point out facts. Some of these Jews use these
buzzwords very casually to further their own agendas.
>> it was the Popes who
>> protected them from anti-Semitic mobs all throughout the Middle Ages, for
>> instance. And most likely some of this rage was a result of those comments
>in
>> the Talmud and other commentaries. In other cases, no...most likely the
>> reasons for anti-jewish prejudice stemmed from economic reasons rather than
>> racial. racial anti-Semitism seems to be a recent phenomenon.
>
>There is a lot of ignorance about this aspect of the Church among the
>general population.
>
Unfortunately.
>Generally speaking, it was the uneducated laity who launched pogroms
>against the Jews
Yes.
> There was a religious element, but it was definitely
>exacerbated by economic reasons.
At times, yes. Sometimes Jews publicly blasphemed the Church. I have read
accounts where they would all fress in black, as if in mourning, on Easter day,
and then solemnly march past a Church to provoke the worshippers. This is a
true and verifiable historical fact. Others were often seen to spit in front
of Church's and so.
>The social structures at the time
>often made the Jews the target of a feudal Lord's economic policies: they
>would be brought in specifically as usurers or to conduct commerce, but
>the oppressed laity would unleash their rage at their creditors the Jews
>when in fact the Lord of the place wouldn't do squat for them.
>
And Pope Leo had a very different version of this association of Lords with
Jewish financiers. Should I post it?
>The fact that bishops were the ones who tried to save the Jews and that
>the popes tried to protect them from harm is widely ignored
Yes-and I daresay those who ignore it KNOW the truth but they are pushing a
political againda of their own/
>. But I don't
>blame Jews for that-- in fact, I read a book a couple of months ago by a
>Jewish historian confirming all of this-- rather I just think society's
>bais against Catholicism has made this information unavailable to most
>people.
And WHO has encouraged this bias and why?
>People like to see the dark and the gruesome, so the mainstream
>media, in portraying the Church's history, gives them the dark and the
>gruesome.
>
And who has been in the forefront of these abuses and lies about the Church?
>The Talmud was burned, but I think this was a mistake.
So do I--BUT I think the Jews should have acknowledged their offensive insults
and apologized for them-and should do so today. If they did what was right
they would deprive real anti-Semites of a tool which they use against them-but
they have not and they most likely won't.
>I think in the wake of the Holocaust, I don't see the hostile attitude
>towards Christianity going away for the next 100 years at least.
The Church had nothing to do with this event.
> Rightly
>or wrongly, they blame Christians for it.
It is a convenient and time worn tool to attack those whom they wrongfully
regard as their enemies-to this type of person-the cross is equal to the
swastika.
>These are not the exact words but very similar. Other texts are much
>> more explicit.
>
>I don't think so. And neither do many Jews. They are not certain it is
>about Jesus.
And I am confident that if I post all of these excerpts there will be no doubt
in the mind of an honest person that they are referring to Jesus and Mary/.
>My point
>> is simply that I feel Christians are due an apology--a public apology-for
>these
>> comments which are still be published.
>
>I don't think it's fair or wise to ask the Jews to do this.
Well, I do.
>First because,
>like I said, they don't necessarily accept these references.
Listen, my brother in Christ-they know perfectly WELL whom these excerpts refer
to...in most cases, they are simply dissembling.
>And secondly,
>because it's part of their Revelation.
The Talmud is not Revelation., It is a commentary on Scripture--yet within it,
they include these horrific slanders and libels against Christ and
Christianity, There is NO reason for this at all, other then pure odium./
>f we won't expunge what they
>consider to be antisemitic excerpts from our New Testament, it's not fair
>to ask them to do away with their Tradition.
>
But, as I have told you, the Talmud is NOT Scriptural --they are a compilation
of the opinions of the rabbis. But OUR NT is indeed the word of God and Sacred
Revelation--which they insult, ridicule, and deny. (I am speaking VERY
generally here, of course.)
>>
>> No, but He was murdered doing it. And so were many Christians courageous
>> enough to follow His example.
>
>He was murdered and he never asked retribution. He said "Father forgive
>them for they know what they do." And many Christians followed int
Yes, but I have not asked for retribution either--just the acknowledgment of
the truth and an apology. And when Christ said what you quoted, I believe He
was referring ot the Pagans-not the Jews who rejected Him-for in Scipture they
were already condemned to hell. The words of Christ Himself-read them.
>We can never know who will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, but God allows
>everyone the chance to, and I think there may be many Jews will be saved
>for reasons that God only knows, even after hearing the Gospel, because to
>hear the Gospel isn't always to understand the Gospel.
I agree with ALL the above. Scripture states that 144,000 Jews in JERUSALEM
will be saved. Undoubtedly there shall be more but only if they accept Christ.
>>
>> >I can't speak for everyone, but I am certain there are a number of people
>> >who agree with me: your antisemitism is not welcome.
>>
>> Well sir, let me edify you: I am NOT an anti-Semite. So you and whoever
>else
>> thinks like you are in error. I would welcome a mass conversion of the
>Jews
>> and accept them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. And that is a fact.
>
>I am a woman
My apologies.
>And accepting Jews doesn't mean accepting them as
>Christians, but as Jews as well
Sure, and we can accept abortionists and atheists and agnostics in the same
way.
>I'm not one to say that Jews don't have
>to be converted.
Good. Because they DO have to accept Christ as the Messiah.
> But until they are converted, ranting about how evil and
>unfair they are doesn't do anything but stir up antisemitism.
I am not saying THEY are evil, but what they have done and written and so on
are evil.
>There are a
>a lot antisemites in the woodwork who use this kind of thing.
>
Yes, already stipulated to above. I wish no harm to come to any person over
these issues.
>
>Jews are actually extremely misinformed about Catholicism
Agreed.
> In my opinion,
>what they reject is a deformed image of Christianity.
WHich their fathers helped to distort, actually, and passed on to subsequent
generations.
>I also think that
>their version of Judaism is a Tradition that Jesus did not hold
Agreed again.
>(the
>Jewish version of Fundamentalist Christianity, to use an analogy). For
>Jews to be converted, they need to see Catholicism as it really is and
>need to see that it conformed to the Jewish Tradition of 2000 years ago.
>
>
Absolutely! We certainly CAN agree, can't we? :>)
>I don't believe in pinpointing dates for the end times.
Well, I also agree.
>Jesus said no one
>knows the day nor the hour, and he meant it. I think End times speculation
>is a waste of time.
>
That is also true, but it is written that in the end times prophecy shall
increase...the above quote does not refer to an actual date for armageddon but
for for the possible birth of the anti-Christ--as given by a saint.
>
>> I see....you are one of those "liberal luke-warm Catholics, then.
>
>I think you just sent a number of readers into fits of laughter.
>
It won't be the first itme or the last. Laughter is good for the soul-even if
it is at my expense. :>)
>> And do you
>> accept the apparitions at Fatima as being authentic?
>
>Yes in fact, I do.
>
>SF
>
Good. So do I. God Bless you.
shlom...@my-deja.com
deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Catholics Take a Stand Against Bullies in Israel
> >From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
> >Date: Sun, 25 July 1999 08:24 AM EDT
100...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>
> >You're the one making the claim that the passages refer to Jesus.
It's up
> >to *you* to show that there is a historical link.
> >
>
> All right then, I accept the challenge. It may take a few days for
me to
> collate some of this material though, as it is not easily accessible,
but I
> shall begin to post within this thread asap.
>
The Talmud iteself is very accessible. Most public libraries and
university libraries have copies. Your statement regarding
accessibility makes me suspect that you are not relying upon your own
reading of the Talmud but a tract that purports to tell what the Talmud
contains. Many of these tracts are written by virulent antisemites.
They contain blatant forgeries, not actual quotes.
[---]
> >
> >> Do you deny that the
> >> Talmud was ordered BURNED on numerous occasions after having been
examined
> >by
> >> Christians and found to be offsensive as charged?
> >
> >Yes, but this was in an age which did not have modern historical
methods.
>
> Well, what does that mean, pray tell? either these foul and
insulting passages
> were written or they were not. If I call your mother a wh*re (I am
not, by the
> way) what sort of semantic twisting can change this loathesome and
insulting
> fact, whether it was written 500 years ago or repeated today?
>
Burning the Talmud or books in general was a stupid, intolerant act 500
years ago, 60 years ago, and is today. The Talmud contains commentary
on the Hebrew scriptures. It is not about Jesus, Christianity, or any
other religion.
[---]
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Debunks
>Date: Tue, 27 July 1999 06:57 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7nldgs$ru7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <19990727041833...@ng-cf1.aol.com>,
> deb...@aol.com (Debunks) wrote:
>> >Subject: Re: Catholics Take a Stand Against Bullies in Israel
>> >From: ~~~ SF ~~~ aaa...@hermes.ulaval.ca
>> >Date: Sun, 25 July 1999 08:24 AM EDT
>> >Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990725074046.9482A-
>100...@hermes.ulaval.ca>
>>
>> >You're the one making the claim that the passages refer to Jesus.
>It's up
>> >to *you* to show that there is a historical link.
>> >
>>
>> All right then, I accept the challenge. It may take a few days for
>me to
>> collate some of this material though, as it is not easily accessible,
>but I
>> shall begin to post within this thread asap.
>>
>
>The Talmud iteself is very accessible. Most public libraries and
>university libraries have copies.
Yes, of course you are correct.
>university libraries have copies. Your statement regarding
>accessibility makes me suspect that you are not relying upon your own
>reading of the Talmud but a tract that purports to tell what the Talmud
>contains.
No. I shall refer directly to Talmudic quotations.
>Many of these tracts are written by virulent antisemites.
Agreed, that is why I am not relying upon them.
>They contain blatant forgeries, not actual quotes.
Undoubtedly most of them may very well indulge in this type of yellow
journalism.
>
>> >> Do you deny that the
>> >> Talmud was ordered BURNED on numerous occasions after having been
>examined
>> >by
>> >> Christians and found to be offsensive as charged?
>> >
>> >Yes, but this was in an age which did not have modern historical
>methods.
>>
>> Well, what does that mean, pray tell? either these foul and
>insulting passages
>> were written or they were not. If I call your mother a wh*re (I am
>not, by the
>> way) what sort of semantic twisting can change this loathesome and
>insulting
>> fact, whether it was written 500 years ago or repeated today?
>>
>
>Burning the Talmud or books in general was a stupid, intolerant act 500
>years ago, 60 years ago, and is today. The Talmud contains commentary
>on the Hebrew scriptures. It is not about Jesus, Christianity, or any
>other religion.
But did you know that it was published in an Israeli newspaper that there was a
burning of the New testament in Israel by an army officer? I agree that the
Talmud should not have been burnt, though. There is much wisdom in the Talmud
as well as these offensive remarks in regard to Christians.
shlom...@my-deja.com
> >Date: Tue, 27 July 1999 06:57 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <7nldgs$ru7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
[---]
> >>
> >
> >The Talmud iteself is very accessible. Most public libraries and
> >university libraries have copies.
>
> Yes, of course you are correct.
>
> >university libraries have copies. Your statement regarding
> >accessibility makes me suspect that you are not relying upon your own
> >reading of the Talmud but a tract that purports to tell what the
Talmud
> >contains.
>
> No. I shall refer directly to Talmudic quotations.
>
> >Many of these tracts are written by virulent antisemites.
>
> Agreed, that is why I am not relying upon them.
>
> >They contain blatant forgeries, not actual quotes.
>
> Undoubtedly most of them may very well indulge in this type of yellow
> journalism.
>
I appreciate your acknowledgement of the nature of the problem of
alleged quotations from the Talmud and your statement that you intend
to check any quotes before you post them.
> >
> >Burning the Talmud or books in general was a stupid, intolerant act
500
> >years ago, 60 years ago, and is today. The Talmud contains commentary
> >on the Hebrew scriptures. It is not about Jesus, Christianity, or any
> >other religion.
>
> But did you know that it was published in an Israeli newspaper that
there was a
> burning of the New testament in Israel by an army officer? I agree
that the
> Talmud should not have been burnt, though. There is much wisdom in
the Talmud
> as well as these offensive remarks in regard to Christians.
>
>
I was not aware of the burning of the NT by an Israeli army officer. I
read the English language online version of Ha'aretz, an Israeli daily
from time to time. If the story was there, I missed it. Can you tell me
the approximate date and name of the publication that carried the story?
If true, it was as stupid, intolerant act--by an individual. I condemn
it as, I am sure, most people of all faiths do. Down through the years
there have been many instances of individual Christians descrating
synagogues, burning, the Torah itself as well as the Talmud. These acts
by depraved individuals differ markedly in character from the 13th
century papal decrees for the burning of Talmud.
The NT does contain passages that antisemites have used to rationalize
persecution of Jews. The Talmud contains no passages that incite Jews
to persecute Christians or anyone else.
The words "Jesus Christ," "Christians," "Christianity" do not appear
anywhere in the Talmud. Depending on the version of the Talmud you
read, it may contain thousands of pages. There are a handful of
references to nonjews generally, but there is no reference to
Christianity or Christians. Anyone who seriously considers the Talmud
will find that it is a collection of the oral law and commentary. There
is no reason to discuss Christianity in any such collection.
The Talmud is and has been of great importance in Jewish religious and
communal life. Those who wish to destroy Judaism know this. They
rationalize their efforts to destroy the Talmud by falsely claiming it
contains anti-Christian passages.