The false tradition and Pagan beliefs of Purgatory. How does Pain clean a soul?

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Mattb

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Jan 18, 2022, 1:24:57 PMJan 18
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What Is Purgatory?
The term purgatory refers to the purification of the elected souls
before entering Heaven. According to the Roman Catholic and medieval
Christian beliefs, this state of existence is considered a punishment
to prepare the souls for Heaven. The people who do not fall in the
category of sinners or saints can seek a path to the eternal abode
through purgatory.

It is a purification fire that rids people of their remaining
impurities. This process reinstates people's belief in the merits of
living a good life and in a just creation; and is a way for all souls
who hope to find eternal salvation to purify themselves through this
process. Purgatory is not the same as damnation; purgatory is a path
to Heaven.

Purgatory Analogy
By achieving holiness through purification (purgatory), the impure
souls find their way to Heaven. A simple analogy that effectively
explains the concept of purgatory is the process of washing dishes.
The used dishes would then go through three stages of cleaning:

Stage 1: Cleansing with soap

Stage 2: Rinsing with clean water

Stage 3: Sanitizing to remove any remaining bacteria or other impure
particles

The final step can be seen as the purification of the dish when it
looks clean but requires to remain dipped in sanitizer to become ready
for future use. Similarly, in the process of purgatory, the chosen
souls need to go through this state of cleansing to be worthy of
Heaven.

Lesson Quiz Course
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The History and Origins of Purgatory
The concept of purgatory or the purification process has been in
existence since the ancient past. There are several ideas about a
similar process to be found in the writings of many pagan writers.
However, the concept gained its real meaning as a contrast to the one
described as celestial Hades (different from the Hades mentioned in
the works of Homer). This celestial Hades suggested a place where the
souls would go after death before going to Heaven or Earth through
reincarnation.

However, purgatory relates to a place where the souls undergo
purification to enter Heaven.

The doctrine of purgatory has developed over the centuries. However,
according to the Christian belief, it consists of only three
components.

A purification process exists after death.
This process involves pain.
The living can assist this process for their loved ones by offering
their prayers.
Any other ideas about purgatory being an actual place are based on
mere speculations and are not a part of the doctrine.

The concept of purgatory existed before the time of Christ. The
mention of the same is revealed in the Old Testament and other Jewish
works as well. Due to this faith, orthodox Jews, to this day, believe
in praying after the death of a loved one for eleven months. This
prayer, the Mourner's Kaddish, is for the souls to find a chance to
reach Heaven through a final purification.

However, these beliefs were put to the stand in the sixteenth century
during the period of the Protestant Reformation. The reformation
renounced the existing ideas of purgatory with a faith in the concept
of an instant glorification of the saved souls. It was God's mercy and
not the prayers of the living that helped the elect souls enter
Heaven. It thus refuted the existence of a process like this in the
afterlife and just accepted that God's mercy stood in the way of the
saved souls and Heaven.

The mention of a process of purification is observed in several
religious texts. The idea of an afterlife or what happens after death
is quite similar in other faiths as purgatory in Catholicism. Some
religions with a belief in an existence of a realm between death and
glory are:

Jews (the concept of Gehenna)
Tibetan Buddhism (talks of a state of temporary existence called
Bardo)
Islam (features a place called Barzakh, between Heaven and hell)
Shinto followers (belief in a place where souls gather after death;
the underworld)
Hinduism (Refers to a place where penance served offers a possibility
of rebirth. It is like a temporary hell to cleanse the soul.)
Additionally, the ideas of purgatory-like beliefs are also found in
Voodoo, the faith of the Anglicans, the East-Orthodox Church, the
ancient Egyptians, and others.

It is essential to consider that these ideologies have similar ideas
like purgatory, which is a belief to explain the mystery after death.

Christianity
It is widely known that Catholics believe in the existence of Heaven
and Hell. However, there is also an idea of purgatory: a temporary
state of the soul to prepare for Heaven.

Purgatory not only refers to the cleansing of remaining sins or
impurities in the soul, but it is also a process that leads to a
complete detachment from the sins. The people who lead a life of sins
are offered a chance of repentance if they are genuinely remorseful of
their actions.

https://study.com/learn/lesson/purgatory-history-origins.html

How does Pain clean a soul?

P+Barker

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Jan 18, 2022, 4:58:07 PMJan 18
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Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What Is Purgatory?
>The term purgatory refers to the purification of the elected souls
>before entering Heaven. According to the Roman Catholic and medieval
>Christian beliefs, this state of existence is considered a punishment
>to prepare the souls for Heaven. The people who do not fall in the
>category of sinners or saints can seek a path to the eternal abode
>through purgatory.
>
>It is a purification fire that rids people of their remaining
>impurities.

So far, so good......
Let me further clarify this.
As I have a dozen times before for matty, the troll.

Is Purgatory in the Bible?
We'll begin by making clear just what we mean by "Purgatory." The
Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
All who die in God's grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed
assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo
purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy
of heaven (1030).
This seems so simple. Its common sense. Scripture is very clear when
it says, "But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Hab.
1:13 says, "You [God]... are of purer eyes than to behold evil and
cannot look on wrong..." How many of us will be perfectly sanctified
at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of
further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we
die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.

Perhaps the best place to start is with the most overt reference to a
"Purgatory" of sorts in the Old Testament. I say a "Purgatory of
sorts" because Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New
Testament and defined by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament people
of God would not have called it "Purgatory," but they did clearly
believe that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as
I will now prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics
call "Purgatory."
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of
his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen
comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men
were carrying "sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law
forbids the Jews to wear" (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned
they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men
"turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed
might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection... and sent
it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted
very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead,
that they might be delivered from their sin."
There are usually two immediate objections to the use of this text
when talking with Protestants. First, they will dismiss any evidence
presented therein because they do not accept the inspiration of
Maccabees.
Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not
negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from
an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in
praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of
Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised.
And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in
this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).
This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that
can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it.
In Matthew 5:24-25, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory.
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him
to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge
to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will
never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).
I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all
of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which
is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold,
silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble-each man's work will
become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one
has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation
survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he
will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through
fire.

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of
the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested
after death. It says our works will go through "fire," figuratively
speaking. In Scripture, "fire" is used metaphorically in two ways: as
a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that
which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol
here for God's judgment. Some of the "works" represented are being
burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn
according to their essential "quality" (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).
What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are
imperfections that need to be "burned up" (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab.
1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it?
The Protestant calls it "the Judgment" and we Catholics agree. We
Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where
imperfections are purged as "Purgatory."


The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46:
"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from
sin."

In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of
liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be
released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last
penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation
at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not
be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Here Jesus
speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some
sins can be forgiven in the world to come. We know that in Hell there
is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we
see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its
final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness
of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
Revelation 21:27: "…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who
does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered
(the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text
around it for context).
The Bible clearly implies a place for an intermediate state of
purification after we die in the many passages which tell that God
will reward or punish according to a person's life.

Mattb

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Jan 18, 2022, 9:31:25 PMJan 18
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:58:03 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Did Jesus mention this place? Why did it take the RCC 1000 years to
produce it and then why did they use it to extort money with its use
of the Indulgences claim? Seem greed is a core value of the RCC.

Mattb

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Jan 18, 2022, 9:46:58 PMJan 18
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:58:03 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Maybe it means that even if you ask for forgiveness of that one type
of sin it will not be forgiven but all others will.


> We know that in Hell there
>is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we
>see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its
>final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness
>of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
>Revelation 21:27: "…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who
>does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered
>(the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text
>around it for context).

Does seems this is something Jesus would have spoken of more
directly.


>The Bible clearly implies a place for an intermediate state of
>purification after we die in the many passages which tell that God
>will reward or punish according to a person's life.

I think the RCC used Purgatory for greed and indulgences. Before
you ask I will produce an article or several on the RCC's history with
Indulgences.

Mattb

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Jan 18, 2022, 10:13:56 PMJan 18
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 19:10:16 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 18, 2022, Mattb wrote
>(in article<rkueughqhshc58btd...@4ax.com>):
>This distortion of their Church is why they are called universalists, as
>according to them one works their way out of hell and so everyone is saved in
>the end.


Why does it require pain and suffering to purge sin? That seems
like a man made bunch of bullshit to me. Here place your hand in the
fire for a time and all is forgiven is that what the RCC says?

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:08:09 AMJan 19
to
Yes.

> Why did it take the RCC 1000 years to
>produce it and then why did they use it to extort money with its use
>of the Indulgences claim? Seem greed is a core value of the RCC.

It seems you are a whiner.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:09:13 AMJan 19
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Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>Maccabees is not scripture

Just because you and calvin do not accept it as scripture, it was
included in the Bible for over 1000 years.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:11:20 AMJan 19
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Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:


>>The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46:
>>"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from
>>sin."
>>
>>In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of
>>liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be
>>released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last
>>penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation
>>at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
>>
>>Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
>>will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not
>>be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Here Jesus
>>speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some
>>sins can be forgiven in the world to come.
>
>Maybe it means that even if you ask for forgiveness of that one type
>of sin it will not be forgiven but all others will.

And maybe it doesn't mean that.



>> We know that in Hell there
>>is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we
>>see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its
>>final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness
>>of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
>>Revelation 21:27: "…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who
>>does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered
>>(the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text
>>around it for context).
>
> Does seems this is something Jesus would have spoken of more
>directly.

Maybe He did.



>>The Bible clearly implies a place for an intermediate state of
>>purification after we die in the many passages which tell that God
>>will reward or punish according to a person's life.
>
> I think the RCC used Purgatory for greed and indulgences.

Do you think I give a shit on what you think?

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:12:57 AMJan 19
to
Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 18, 2022, Mattb wrote


>> > The Bible clearly implies a place for an intermediate state of
>> > purification after we die in the many passages which tell that God
>> > will reward or punish according to a person's life.
>>
>> I think the RCC used Purgatory for greed and indulgences. Before
>> you ask I will produce an article or several on the RCC's history with
>> Indulgences.
>
>This distortion of their Church is why they are called universalists, as
>according to them one works their way out of hell and so everyone is saved in
>the end.

No one works their way out of hell.
Or, is this another one of your fantasies?
Maybe if they carry their "bin saved" card....?

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:14:08 AMJan 19
to
Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why does it require pain and suffering to purge sin? That seems
>like a man made bunch of bullshit to me. Here place your hand in the
>fire for a time and all is forgiven is that what the RCC says?

Huh?
Why do you troll your bull shit here?

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 6:15:52 AMJan 19
to
Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 18, 2022, Mattb wrote


>> Why does it require pain and suffering to purge sin? That seems
>> like a man made bunch of bullshit to me. Here place your hand in the
>> fire for a time and all is forgiven is that what the RCC says?
>
>It flies in the face of a Just God. Pain and torment in the next life is for
>those that disowned God in this life. Jesus died for all the sins of mankind
>and they could accept it now, before death, but if they don't they go to the
>Lake of Fire after death. There is no recourse.
>
>Some people have a picture in their mind that God is a God of Pure Love and
>is a patsy. They do not want to accept the fact that he is God and a just
>God, and like in this life murderers get the death penalty for their crimes
>it is also a sin. And God provides the final justice, but he provides
>forgiveness for those who are willing to receive it. In this life, yeah a
>murderer will pay his or her crime against humanity, but forgiven by God he
>will be rescued from eternal death.


Two catholic bashers arguing about what Catholics believe.
How funny.

Mattb

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Jan 19, 2022, 12:09:59 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:08:08 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Where what verse?
>
>> Why did it take the RCC 1000 years to
>>produce it and then why did they use it to extort money with its use
>>of the Indulgences claim? Seem greed is a core value of the RCC.
>
>It seems you are a whiner.

They've never taken from me if that is what you suggest so I have
nothing to whine about. This is a historic fact that the RCC stole
money for centuries with this Indulgence con game, they were as honest
as snake oil salesmen.

Mattb

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Jan 19, 2022, 12:10:37 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:14:07 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
You did not answer the question?

Mattb

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Jan 19, 2022, 12:12:44 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:11:20 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:
>
>
>>>The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46:
>>>"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from
>>>sin."
>>>
>>>In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of
>>>liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be
>>>released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last
>>>penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation
>>>at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
>>>
>>>Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
>>>will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not
>>>be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Here Jesus
>>>speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some
>>>sins can be forgiven in the world to come.
>>
>>Maybe it means that even if you ask for forgiveness of that one type
>>of sin it will not be forgiven but all others will.
>
>And maybe it doesn't mean that.

What does your RCC say about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit in the way
Jesus described?
>
>
>
>>> We know that in Hell there
>>>is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we
>>>see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its
>>>final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness
>>>of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
>>>Revelation 21:27: "…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who
>>>does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered
>>>(the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text
>>>around it for context).
>>
>> Does seems this is something Jesus would have spoken of more
>>directly.
>
>Maybe He did.

Do you have evidence?

Mattb

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Jan 19, 2022, 12:17:38 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:09:13 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
What lesson does it give?

Mattb

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Jan 19, 2022, 12:18:50 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:15:51 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It is called having a discussion.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:19:55 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:17:36 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Purgatory.
Pay tension.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:22:47 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:13:41 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<79sfug53js3rugihn...@4ax.com>):
>What Bible? I have no idea what Calvin thought of it.

Even the original King James version of the bible included them.
When King James first authorized the translation in 1611, the Bible
was printed with the Apocryphal texts included. Inclusion fell out of
practice (largely due to the costs of printing in addition to)
Protestant rejection of the texts.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:27:49 PMJan 19
to
, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:


“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them
to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). Notice
Christ’s command restricts the Christian evangelist to teaching only
what Christ revealed and not his own opinions.

Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
Purgatory is one Catholic dogma they don’t think came from our Lord.
It’s asserted that this is one of the many made-up dogmas the Catholic
Church binds its members to believe.

It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.

There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of
purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.

et’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in
this age or in the age to come.

Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice
Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the
age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great
says: “From this sentence, we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4,
39).

I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims
translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife.
First, at other times when Jesus speaks of the “age to come” (Mark
10:30; Luke 18:20, 20:35), or when his teaching implies the “age to
come” (Mark 13:39-40, Matt. 28:20), it’s in reference to life after
death. Second, just a few verses later (v. 36), Jesus speaks of the
“day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after
death. And he speaks of it in connection with his previous warning
about the sin against the Holy Spirit.

So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein
the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old
Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s
writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or
purified.

This state can’t be heaven since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t
be hell since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be
saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.



>
> This is a historic fact that the RCC stole
>money for centuries with this Indulgence con game, they were as honest
>as snake oil salesmen.

Shall we try to stay on the subject: Purgatory?

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:28:48 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:18:48 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
A discussion between two punks discussing how to beat up on some kid
in school. Yer mama would be so proud.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:29:18 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:15:38 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<nlsfug9gdkogvmbep...@4ax.com>):
>I did not disagree with him, in regards to purgatory and the absurdity of it
>all as well as its heresy.

Didn't say you did.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:30:24 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:10:35 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I don't answer stupid troll questions.
Did yer daddy ever punish you for not sucking him off?
Yes or no?
No other answer will do.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:32:07 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:23:47 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<3fsfugt2l08sdj2ft...@4ax.com>):
>No one works there way out of hell.

That is exactly what I said.
Pay tension.


>
>The Lake of Fire and Brimstone is for eternal torment. There is no out from
>there, when at the time of the White throne judgement all offenders are
>placed therein, that's it for them.

That is exactly what I said.
Pay tension.


>As to Gehenna / hell, that is all burnt up and utterly destroyed from total
>existence once the Judgment of man is completed at the white throne judgment.
>
>It does not matter what you believe or were taught, it is what is written in
>scripture that is truth.
>
>You can mock the free gift of total salvation all you wish, but I just
>described for you what is written in the Bible as to your expected end
>without that Salvation.
>May the truth of the Gospel be seen by you, and the fear of the Lord grip
>your soul.

I thought you were discussing Purgatory.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 4:33:36 PMJan 19
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On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:12:40 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:11:20 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46:
>>>>"Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from
>>>>sin."
>>>>
>>>>In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of
>>>>liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be
>>>>released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last
>>>>penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation
>>>>at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
>>>>
>>>>Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
>>>>will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not
>>>>be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Here Jesus
>>>>speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some
>>>>sins can be forgiven in the world to come.
>>>
>>>Maybe it means that even if you ask for forgiveness of that one type
>>>of sin it will not be forgiven but all others will.
>>
>>And maybe it doesn't mean that.
>
> What does your RCC say about Blaspheming the Holy Spirit in the way
>Jesus described?

We read the Holy Scripture on that.
Would you like a lesson?


>>>> We know that in Hell there
>>>>is no liberation and in Heaven nothing imperfect can enter it as we
>>>>see in the next part. Sin is not forgiven when a soul reaches its
>>>>final destination because in heaven there is no need for forgiveness
>>>>of sin and in hell the choice to go there is already made.
>>>>Revelation 21:27: "…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who
>>>>does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered
>>>>(the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text
>>>>around it for context).
>>>
>>> Does seems this is something Jesus would have spoken of more
>>>directly.
>>
>>Maybe He did.
>
> Do you have evidence?

Do you have any evidence that Jesus refused to speak about it?

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 19, 2022, 5:54:22 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 14:26:16 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<b40hughgjmkn9bkbs...@4ax.com>):
>It was never posted as Scripture. Even in yours as it was listed as
>Apocryphal.

So what?
It was part of the Bible.
The Bible is considered Scred Scripture.
inspired by God.


>It fell out of favor because certain idiots thought if it was included with
>the Bible it was true, in spite of the notes about it. Printing costs were
>never the consideration.

according to dwain and robt.

P+Barker

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Jan 19, 2022, 5:56:50 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 14:30:42 -0800, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Jan 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<jo0hugdb4kc4pijd6...@4ax.com>):
>As you describe it, or try to, it has to be one of those two places.
>Purgatory is in no way related to heaven, it is not an annex to it. God hates
>sin.

I've never claimed Purgatory is part of heaven.
Any more than county jail is part of Hawaiin beaches.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 19, 2022, 10:16:21 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:19:54 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:17:36 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:09:13 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Maccabees is not scripture
>>>
>>>Just because you and calvin do not accept it as scripture, it was
>>>included in the Bible for over 1000 years.
>>
>> What lesson does it give?
>
>Purgatory.
>Pay tension.

Maccabees to Patrick Barker gives a lesson on Purgatory?

Mattb

unread,
Jan 19, 2022, 10:21:30 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:27:48 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
OK that does not support the false tradition and doctrine of
Purgatory as taught and used by the RCC.

>
>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>Purgatory is one Catholic dogma they don’t think came from our Lord.
>It’s asserted that this is one of the many made-up dogmas the Catholic
>Church binds its members to believe.

True and I will post on more soon.
>
>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.

Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>
>There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of
>purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
>
>et’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:
>
>And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
>whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in
>this age or in the age to come.

This has nothing to do with Purgatory.
>
>Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice
>Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the
>age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great
>says: “From this sentence, we understand that certain offenses can be
>forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4,
>39).

Why would God need to torture in order to forgive?
>
>I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims
>translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife.
>First, at other times when Jesus speaks of the “age to come” (Mark
>10:30; Luke 18:20, 20:35), or when his teaching implies the “age to
>come” (Mark 13:39-40, Matt. 28:20), it’s in reference to life after
>death. Second, just a few verses later (v. 36), Jesus speaks of the
>“day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after
>death. And he speaks of it in connection with his previous warning
>about the sin against the Holy Spirit.
>
>So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein
>the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old
>Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s
>writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or
>purified.
>
>This state can’t be heaven since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t
>be hell since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be
>saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.

So you claim but then what of the angles that followed Satan were
they not at one time in heaven?

>
>
>
>>
>> This is a historic fact that the RCC stole
>>money for centuries with this Indulgence con game, they were as honest
>>as snake oil salesmen.
>
>Shall we try to stay on the subject: Purgatory?

One was used as a tool for the other.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 19, 2022, 10:22:58 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:28:47 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
What are you even talking about?

Mattb

unread,
Jan 19, 2022, 10:23:24 PMJan 19
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:30:24 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:10:35 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:14:07 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why does it require pain and suffering to purge sin? That seems
>>>>like a man made bunch of bullshit to me. Here place your hand in the
>>>>fire for a time and all is forgiven is that what the RCC says?
>>>
>>>Huh?
>>>Why do you troll your bull shit here?
>>
>> You did not answer the question?
>
>I don't answer stupid troll questions.

That means you can't.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 7:33:35 AMJan 20
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:16:19 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:19:54 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:17:36 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:09:13 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Maccabees is not scripture
>>>>
>>>>Just because you and calvin do not accept it as scripture, it was
>>>>included in the Bible for over 1000 years.
>>>
>>> What lesson does it give?
>>
>>Purgatory.
>>Pay tension.
>
>Maccabees to Patrick Barker gives a lesson on Purgatory?

Maccabees is a book.
It does not "GIVE" lessons to anyone.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 7:38:09 AMJan 20
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:21:25 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yawn.
I giess you are just stupid.
You cannot read and comprehend.



>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>>Purgatory is one Catholic dogma they don’t think came from our Lord.
>>It’s asserted that this is one of the many made-up dogmas the Catholic
>>Church binds its members to believe.
>
> True and I will post on more soon.

Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.




>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>
> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.

Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.


>>There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of
>>purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
>>
>>et’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:
>>
>>And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
>>whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in
>>this age or in the age to come.
>
> This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

either in>>this age or in the age to come.


>
>>Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice
>>Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the
>>age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great
>>says: “From this sentence, we understand that certain offenses can be
>>forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4,
>>39).
>
> Why would God need to torture in order to forgive?

God doesn't NEED to do anything.
Are you stupid?
Do you even believe in God?


>>I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims
>>translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife.
>>First, at other times when Jesus speaks of the “age to come” (Mark
>>10:30; Luke 18:20, 20:35), or when his teaching implies the “age to
>>come” (Mark 13:39-40, Matt. 28:20), it’s in reference to life after
>>death. Second, just a few verses later (v. 36), Jesus speaks of the
>>“day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after
>>death. And he speaks of it in connection with his previous warning
>>about the sin against the Holy Spirit.
>>
>>So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein
>>the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old
>>Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s
>>writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or
>>purified.
>>
>>This state can’t be heaven since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t
>>be hell since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be
>>saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.
>
> So you claim but then what of the angles that followed Satan were
>they not at one time in heaven?

Put that in a better form of a question.
I cannot even guess what you are implying.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 7:39:07 AMJan 20
to
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:23:21 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:30:24 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:10:35 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:14:07 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why does it require pain and suffering to purge sin? That seems
>>>>>like a man made bunch of bullshit to me. Here place your hand in the
>>>>>fire for a time and all is forgiven is that what the RCC says?
>>>>
>>>>Huh?
>>>>Why do you troll your bull shit here?
>>>
>>> You did not answer the question?
>>
>>I don't answer stupid troll questions.
>
> That means you can't.


Did yer daddy ever punish you for not sucking him off?
Yes or no?
No other answer will do.

Can't you answer this first?

Mattb

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 2:26:23 PMJan 20
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 07:33:35 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:16:19 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:19:54 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:17:36 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 06:09:13 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Maccabees is not scripture
>>>>>
>>>>>Just because you and calvin do not accept it as scripture, it was
>>>>>included in the Bible for over 1000 years.
>>>>
>>>> What lesson does it give?
>>>
>>>Purgatory.
>>>Pay tension.
>>
>>Maccabees to Patrick Barker gives a lesson on Purgatory?
>
>Maccabees is a book.
>It does not "GIVE" lessons to anyone.

The Bible is also a book are you saying it doesn't give lessons,
I've found it gives many. You do not need a Church for the lessons in
fact you might be better off without one such as the RCC, Baptist, or
Holy rollers.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 2:37:18 PMJan 20
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 07:38:07 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
Matt. 28:19-20
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
with you always, to the close of the age.

Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.
>
>
>
>>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>>>Purgatory is one Catholic dogma they don’t think came from our Lord.
>>>It’s asserted that this is one of the many made-up dogmas the Catholic
>>>Church binds its members to believe.
>>
>> True and I will post on more soon.
>
>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.

True. History shows they do and have.
>
>
>
>
>>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>>
>> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>
>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.

Then you don't hae a counter for my statement. I see you are
reduced to trolling.
>
>
>>>There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of
>>>purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
>>>
>>>et’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:
>>>
>>>And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
>>>whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in
>>>this age or in the age to come.
>>
>> This has nothing to do with Purgatory.
>
>either in>>this age or in the age to come.

That doesn't necessarily mean Purgatory as taught and used by
Catholics.
>
>
>>
>>>Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice
>>>Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the
>>>age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great
>>>says: “From this sentence, we understand that certain offenses can be
>>>forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4,
>>>39).
>>
>> Why would God need to torture in order to forgive?
>
>God doesn't NEED to do anything.
>Are you stupid?
>Do you even believe in God?

Then why would forgiving sin through Purgatory require pain of the
spirit?

>
>
>>>I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims
>>>translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife.
>>>First, at other times when Jesus speaks of the “age to come” (Mark
>>>10:30; Luke 18:20, 20:35), or when his teaching implies the “age to
>>>come” (Mark 13:39-40, Matt. 28:20), it’s in reference to life after
>>>death. Second, just a few verses later (v. 36), Jesus speaks of the
>>>“day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after
>>>death. And he speaks of it in connection with his previous warning
>>>about the sin against the Holy Spirit.
>>>
>>>So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein
>>>the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old
>>>Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s
>>>writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or
>>>purified.
>>>
>>>This state can’t be heaven since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t
>>>be hell since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be
>>>saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.
>>
>> So you claim but then what of the angles that followed Satan were
>>they not at one time in heaven?
>
>Put that in a better form of a question.

So you claim, but then what of the angles that followed Satan were?
They were at one time in heaven?

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 3:39:03 PMJan 20
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 11:26:19 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
If it gives lessons, why don't you pay attention to them?

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 3:56:57 PMJan 20
to
Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Matt. 28:19-20
>[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
>teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
>with you always, to the close of the age.
>
>Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.

Gosh.
A bowl of cottage cheese also does not support the idea of a trinity.
Unless you add pineapple and salt.




>>>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>>>
>>> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>>
>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>
> Then you don't hae a counter for my statement. I see you are
>reduced to trolling.

Did you have a question here?



>>> Why would God need to torture in order to forgive?
>>
>>God doesn't NEED to do anything.
>>Are you stupid?
>>Do you even believe in God?
>
> Then why would forgiving sin through Purgatory require pain of the
>spirit?

Who says it does?
Do you think this is some sort of Catholic dogma?



>>>>This state can’t be heaven since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t
>>>>be hell since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be
>>>>saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.
>>>
>>> So you claim but then what of the angles that followed Satan were
>>>they not at one time in heaven?
>>
>>Put that in a better form of a question.
>
>So you claim, but then what of the angles that followed Satan were?
>They were at one time in heaven?
>
>>I cannot even guess what you are implying.

Do you mean angels?
Sometime prior to Genesis 3, Satan (then a leading angel) rebelled
against God and was judged (Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14). It is believed
many other angels rebelled with him during this time, becoming the
fallen angels or demons mentioned throughout the Bible. A close look
at Revelation 12 does clarify some aspects.

When Lucifer / Satan fell, did one third of the angels fall with him?
The idea of one third of the angels falling from heaven is found in
Revelation 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven
and cast them to the earth." This passage is often interpreted to mean
Satan and a third of angels were removed from heaven to earth.

A great number of the angels fell because they rebelled against God.
We recall that before admitting the angels to paradise, God subjected
them to a trial of obedience and humility, of which we know the nature
but not the specifics. The sin of the fallen angels was one of pride
and disobedience. Satan, the most beautiful of all the angels, being
aware of his extreme intelligence, rebelled at the idea of being
subjected to someone. He forgot that he was a creature made by God.
Many angels followed him in his folly.

What happened between the angels is narrated in the twelfth chapter of
the book of Revelation: there was a great war between the angels who
remained faithful to God and those who rebelled against Him — in
brief, a war between the angels and the demons. In this passage, the
Bible tells us that Michael the Archangel was at the head of the
angels and that the dragon guided the angels who rebelled (and were
defeated). The result was that “there was no longer any place for them
in heaven” (Rev. 12:8).

+++++++++

If you don't follow that story, then listen up.....
God made a whole bunch of Angels to be with Him in His domain.
God had the power. God was the Creator.
And.... as you see in life every single day, one dude ALWAYS wants to
be a bully, confront the Big Boss and take over the realm.
This dude is usually charismatic, and has followers.

+ Side note: Why do we have an AFL and an NFL? Why so many wrestling
federations? Why so many bowling leagues? Why the American Baseball
league and the National Baseball league? Why did the Bengals strart
their own club - breaking away from the Browns? Why did the Brooklyn
Angels go to the West Coast?

Anyway, back to Lucifer (Light).... He felt he was the dude. Michael
decided to stick with the Big Guy and took up the fight against
Lucifer.

+ Another side note: Have you ever noticed that when there are two
groups battling, there is always one group who refuses to take sides?
Switzerland. Anyway, should we reward the peanut gallery for not
doing a thing?

Back to Lucifer vs Michael.
Michael and the good guys win the battle.
God creates a place for all the dudes who followed Lucifer.
But.... what to do with the fence sitters?
Well then..........
God made a LONG LONG slide and sent all those dudes down to Ireland
and they became leprechauns. And that is where they came from.

++ Any more questions?

Rod

unread,
Jan 20, 2022, 7:07:40 PMJan 20
to
I'm down and not able to function so I've got lots of time
to let my leg heal. I'll be reading thru it..

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 7:42:10 AMJan 21
to
Sorry to hear about your ailment.
My wife broke her hip in October, and she is recuperating also.
And, she isn't always in a great mood.
Physical Therapy is good, but it dang sure is painful.

Rod

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 12:17:36 PMJan 21
to
They had to replace my right hip joint. Now that i have a new one
I still have to go thru the PT to learn how to walk again. The pain
keeps me awake at night but I am the one that chose not to use
the oxycodone that the surgeon prescribed. People get addicted to that
stuff and have a worse time.

The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.

Rod

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 1:00:15 PMJan 21
to
On 1/21/2022 11:20 AM, Robert wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2022, Rod wrote
> (in article <ssctga$8ac$1...@dont-email.me>):
> If you happen to read the NKJV, in it are verses that are capitalized, that
> was their way of pointing to the Old Testament where it was first spoken. A
> concordance is useful to help locate where. I wish you well.
>

Thank you. That was a good thing to be aware of. May God bless each
of you according to the love that you have shown to others.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 3:22:46 PMJan 21
to
That is exactly what happened with my wife. EXACTLY.
This happened to her in October. And I've been taking her to a
physical therapist now twice a week. She uses a walker.
And she also refused to take Oxy for a while.
She finally gave in, but no longer takes it.


> The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.

Good for you.
We are hoping to be able to take cruises starting in May.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 3:36:08 PMJan 21
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:39:03 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
Some of the lessons take time to understand. Some are contradictory
you have "God is Love" and then you have purgatory.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 3:37:03 PMJan 21
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 18:07:37 -0600, Rod <dx70...@gmail.com> wrote:

Get well soon. Is this as bad as the last time you were ill?

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 3:46:54 PMJan 21
to
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:56:55 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Matt. 28:19-20
>>[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
>>teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
>>with you always, to the close of the age.
>>
>>Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.
>
>Gosh.
>A bowl of cottage cheese also does not support the idea of a trinity.
>Unless you add pineapple and salt.

Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
because that is all he has.
>
>
>
>
>>>>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>>>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>>>
>>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>>
>> Then you don't hae a counter for my statement. I see you are
>>reduced to trolling.
>
>Did you have a question here?

Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
because that is all he has.
>
>
>
>
>>>> Why would God need to torture in order to forgive?
>>>
>>>God doesn't NEED to do anything.
>>>Are you stupid?
>>>Do you even believe in God?
>>
>> Then why would forgiving sin through Purgatory require pain of the
>>spirit?
>
>Who says it does?

OK How does purgatory punish according to the RCC?

>Do you think this is some sort of Catholic dogma?

Purgatory is a false tradition and a form of Eisegesis.
Did they sin while in heaven? Did they oppose God in thought while
in heaven?

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 4:01:14 PMJan 21
to
There is a lady here that had something similar done and also
doesn't like the Oxy she does a little pot. That is legal here, and
it seems, or she says it, helps and allows her to remain functional to
a degree.
>
> The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.

Maybe to drive a tractor, but I wouldn't bet on the heavy lifting.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 5:48:34 PMJan 21
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:36:07 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
If God didn't love us, he wouldn't provide a means into heaven.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 5:53:33 PMJan 21
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:46:51 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:56:55 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Matt. 28:19-20
>>>[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>>>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
>>>teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
>>>with you always, to the close of the age.
>>>
>>>Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.
>>
>>Gosh.
>>A bowl of cottage cheese also does not support the idea of a trinity.
>>Unless you add pineapple and salt.
>
> Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
>because that is all he has.

I'm merely mimicing your logic.
Don't you like it?



>>>>>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>>>>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>>>>
>>>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>>>
>>> Then you don't hae a counter for my statement. I see you are
>>>reduced to trolling.
>>
>>Did you have a question here?
>
> Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
>because that is all he has.

I'm merely mimicing your logic.
Don't you like it?


> Purgatory is a false tradition and a form of Eisegesis.

Not tradition.
Doctrine.

there is much proof in sacred scripture for the existence of
Purgatory.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines Purgatory as such:
“All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly
purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after
death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness
necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name
Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely
different from the punishment of the damned.” (Catechism 1030-1031)

Protestants often look at the doctrine of Purgatory as something cruel
and unmerciful, that a loving God could not possibly impose. However,
the very existence of Purgatory attests to God’s abounding mercy. God
wants us to be with Him in Heaven in such a way that He would allow a
time of purification and cleansing for the unperfected, so that we
have the opportunity to be with Him.
Nope.
They refused to take sides.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 7:16:49 PMJan 21
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 17:47:30 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
Jesus dies for our sins and a few greedy men added to what Jesus said.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 7:18:12 PMJan 21
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 17:52:58 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:46:51 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:56:55 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Matt. 28:19-20
>>>>[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>>>>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
>>>>teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
>>>>with you always, to the close of the age.
>>>>
>>>>Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.
>>>
>>>Gosh.
>>>A bowl of cottage cheese also does not support the idea of a trinity.
>>>Unless you add pineapple and salt.
>>
>> Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
>>because that is all he has.
>
>I'm merely mimicing your logic.

Thought you claimed to be a better person than I am.

>Don't you like it?
>
>
>
>>>>>>>It’s true all members of the Catholic Church are bound to believe in
>>>>>>>the dogma of purgatory. But it’s not true that it’s made up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes it is made up as it wasn't even taught about until about 1000AD.
>>>>>
>>>>>Many Protestants think the Catholic Church fails in this regard.
>>>>
>>>> Then you don't hae a counter for my statement. I see you are
>>>>reduced to trolling.
>>>
>>>Did you have a question here?
>>
>> Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
>>because that is all he has.
>
>I'm merely mimicing your logic.
>Don't you like it?
>
>
>> Purgatory is a false tradition and a form of Eisegesis.
>
>Not tradition.
>Doctrine.

Then it is a false doctrine.
Then you do not believe Satan had followers?

Rod

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 7:32:06 PMJan 21
to
You have my sympathies! I'm using a walker too. I hate the darned
things, like to throw it on a scrap pile some where. I'm stuck doing PT
for 2 days a week for 6 weeks. Right now Tylenol 1000 mg. 2X daily gets
me thru the PT. I'll keep you guys in my prayers.

>
>
>> The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.
>
> Good for you.
> We are hoping to be able to take cruises starting in May.

Sounds like a lot of fun!

Rod

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 9:24:01 PMJan 21
to
I agree, it will do that but it also can be addictive if you use
it often enough. It's best to use it only when you know that you
will be needing it, like during PT!


>>
>> The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.
>
> Maybe to drive a tractor, but I wouldn't bet on the heavy lifting.

The 6RZ has a power hitch on it. You just reel out the cable and
attach it to the implement and drag it to the tractor, drop in the
pin. Almost to easy..

Rod

unread,
Jan 21, 2022, 9:26:41 PMJan 21
to
No where near it. My right hip just had to be replaced this time
as it was filled with arthritis and had no cartilage left in it.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 2:17:19 AMJan 22
to
Yes it can be but not easy like Oxy to get addicted to it. With
her the problem seems to be she doesn't like theh 'high' feeling so
does a balancing act just enough for the pain not enough to get high.
She also found some gummy bears she says do OK.


>
>
>>>
>>> The Doc says that I should be well enough for spring planting.
>>
>> Maybe to drive a tractor, but I wouldn't bet on the heavy lifting.
>
> The 6RZ has a power hitch on it. You just reel out the cable and
> attach it to the implement and drag it to the tractor, drop in the
> pin. Almost to easy..

That would be nice. My tractor the only thing that gets removed is
the backhoe. Then it isn't near as big as some they use for farming.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 2:18:07 AMJan 22
to
Ouch.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 7:56:31 AMJan 22
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:16:46 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
You've been reading robt and mikey again.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 8:00:57 AMJan 22
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:17:14 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
I only have a Craftsman 42 inch, 21 HP Lawn Tractor (mower) that I
enjoy very much when I am outside - mowing - about every 5-6 days -
starting in late March. One of my few great pleasure. Can't wait.

P+Barker

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 8:05:54 AMJan 22
to
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 16:18:10 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 17:52:58 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:46:51 -0800, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:56:55 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Matt. 28:19-20
>>>>>[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>>>>>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]
>>>>>teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
>>>>>with you always, to the close of the age.
>>>>>
>>>>>Does not necessarily support the Catholic Idea of the trinity.
>>>>
>>>>Gosh.
>>>>A bowl of cottage cheese also does not support the idea of a trinity.
>>>>Unless you add pineapple and salt.
>>>
>>> Here you see Patrick Barker again using deception and distraction
>>>because that is all he has.
>>
>>I'm merely mimicing your logic.
>
> Thought you claimed to be a better person than I am.

I don't believe I said that.
I have a wonderful life though.
Great family, great careeer, great kids and grandkids, more than
enough for comfort, happiness, existence.
I speak from authority in all these things.
I confront whiners like you who look for fault, look to be a victim.
They are called demons and they live in Hell.
As I said above: God creates a place for all the dudes who followed
Lucifer.
You should try to comprehend things that other people say.

Mattb

unread,
Jan 22, 2022, 12:55:10 PMJan 22