The Sign gifts.. Did they cease or are they still active?
John
http://www.therocksandiego.org. This church seems to be somewhat
similiar to Calvary Chapel and really into hands on ministry over
theologicial ministry. If anyone will study Calvary Chapel do realize
that they are a very biblical orginization, but also realize that they
do not train bible scholars and often place people in spiritual
leadership positions who lack a good bible degree. Calvary Chapel uses
(Acts 4:13) out of context to support this philosophy. Their college
also is uncredited, and very much into hands on ministry, which is good,
but lacking a theological substance. Conservative/IP/and Southern
Baptists aren't so much into hands on ministry. But Jason anyways you
picked a good church. I disagree with some things as I mentioned, and
will discuss the sign gifts below, which both Calvary Chapel and the
Rock Embrace. Perhaps you also agree that they ceased. I know that
David Jeremiah does. But this issue is not something to divide over.
However I'd never apply for a job there, and even if I did since I
disagree on this issue I would never get hired in a Calvary Chapel or
the Rock Church.
---
So is it true that the sign gifts did cease or are they still active?
I dont have the time or the space to discuss every sign gift so I will
discuss the gift of healing and explain why it ceased with the first
century church.
One thing those with the gift of healing could unliek anyone today is
HEAL with a word or touch- Acts 9:32-35. No one today who claims to
have this gift can do similiar things. Also another thing that the
apostles and Paul could do is HEAL instantly-Acts 3:2-8, HEAL
totally-Acts 9:34 and HEAL anyone- Acts 5:12-16. No one with the gift
today can heal like this.
But the most important of all is that the apostles and Paul could
HEAL at will and RAISE the dead-Acts 9:36-42,20:9-12.
Those in calvary Chapel, and pentecostal churches cannot raise the dead
nor heal at will. But both Paul and the apostles could.
Remember that the sign gifts were given to the disciples and they were
meant for unbelievers. The written word was not fulfiled at that time,
so unbelievers could see these gifts and believe. Today we hage the
written word, so the gifts are no longer necessary. If you doubt then
read Mark 16.
One must understand Dispensationalism to understand that the sign gifts
existed only ina certain time frame of history.
One of the most popular schemes is that found in the Scofield Reference
Bible (one of the sources that helped popularize dispensationalism). It
is:
Creation to fall Innocency
Fall to flood Conscience
Flood to Abraham Human Government
Abraham to Moses Promise
Moses to Christ Law
Church Age Grace
Millennium Kingdom
The sign gifts were in their own dispensational period.
John
--
My bible page
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
Please Pray for these unbelievers
http://www.members.aol.com/crucifyself03/unbeliever_list.htm
bdra...@aol.com
I believe the following will be of help to you and the concern of your
post in which you state, "But most important of all is that the
apostles and Paul could heal at will..."
In II Tim. 4:20 Paul states, "Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."
Again, in writing to Timothy Paul prescribes "a little wine for you
stomach's sake and your often infirmities" (I Tim. 5:23). While Paul
had ministered healing to others on various occasions, he had not been
able to minister healing to either Trophimus or Timothy for his ongoing
ailment.
Answer lies in the fact that, as Paul himself states in writing the
Corinthians, the Spirit manifests his power in terms of gift ministry
"as He wills" (I Cor. 12:11). It is not by exercise of human will but
by the moving of the Spirit in accordance with His sovereignty.
Jesus dramatically underscored this principle in relation to his own
ministry. In Luke 5:17 it is recorded that "on a certain day...the
power of the Lord was present to heal," in consequence of which Jesus
then healed a man with the palsy (vv. 18-26).
Jesus explains this in John 5:19: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The
Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do; for what
things soever He does, these also doeth the Son likewise." In other
words, Jesus, as the Son of man, did not heal or perform other acts of
the supernatural of his own prerogative. It was rather that of the
Father's will which Jesus then effected - as later noted by Peter, by
agency of the Holy Spirit's anointing (Acts 38).
Perhaps this will help.
Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/
Bible Bob
wrote:
John,
The church age or adminsitration of grace began on Pentecost and
continues to the return of Christ for His church. The Bible does not
say "Today we have the written word, so gifts are no longer
necessary." People say that, not the Bible. Mark 16 disproves your
comment. I think your confusion is with the word "gifts" because what
Mark speaks about is not "gifts". It says "And these signs shall
follow them that believe." It does not say "gifts" and it does not
say Apostles, Prophets, etc. It says "them that believe." So the
requisite for "signs" and "manifestations" (mentioned in the verses)
is believing, not possession of a gift ministry.
Your understanding of dispensationalism is flawed, because there is
nothing ion the Word that says that any of manifestations "have
ceased".
1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV
Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall
fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be]
knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Have the prophecies failed? Has knowledge vanished away? Have
tongues ceased? Prophecy, knowledge, and tongues are manifestations;
not gifts.
1 Corinthians 13:9 KJV
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part
shall be done away.
When do the manifestations cease? When there is no longer a need for
them, when that which is perfect is come, when Christ comes for His
church. Now you can argue that verse ten refers to the written word,
but it does not say the written word. It says "when that which is
perfect is come" and in the context refers to Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:11 KJV
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I
thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish
things.
1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I
know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
Bible Bob
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:45:52 -0700, John <johnw...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
>group)
>>I see that the church that Jason attends embraces the sign gifts
>>http://www.therocksandiego.org. This church seems to be somewhat
>>similiar to Calvary Chapel and really into hands on ministry over
>>theologicial ministry. If anyone will study Calvary Chapel do realize
>>that they are a very biblical orginization, but also realize that they
>>do not train bible scholars and often place people in spiritual
>>leadership positions who lack a good bible degree. Calvary Chapel uses
>>(Acts 4:13) out of context to support this philosophy. Their college
>>also is uncredited, and very much into hands on ministry, which is good,
>>but lacking a theological substance. Conservative/IP/and Southern
>>Baptists aren't so much into hands on ministry. But Jason anyways you
>>picked a good church. I disagree with some things as I mentioned, and
>>will discuss the sign gifts below, which both Calvary Chapel and the
>>Rock Embrace. Perhaps you also agree that they ceased. I know that
>>David Jeremiah does. But this issue is not something to divide over.
>
>I AGAIN say that "sign gifts" are an issue to divide over, since Satan
>and his anti-Christ will perform miracles. Consequently signs cannot
>be a 'proof"of one's Christianity, since Satan can duplicate them.
>
>
>jw
<snip>
jw,
Your logic is flawed because it is based on an inaccurate knowledge of
the scriptures. There are no "sign gifts." Satan and the future
anti-christ may be able to perform miracles but that is not relevant
because Christ said we would know them by their "fruit." It may also
be that the counterfiets that you speak of are very convincing to the
average person, but would not pass the "fruit" test by a believer that
knew how to use it.
Boxer
w<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I AGAIN say that "sign gifts" are an issue to divide over, since Satan
> and his anti-Christ will perform miracles. Consequently signs cannot
> be a 'proof"of one's Christianity, since Satan can duplicate them.
>
>
> jw
It is all a science fiction cosmic war to you - isn't it?
But actually John it is all within your own psychosis
A psychosis you refuse to acknowledge!
You do not understand Jesus at all
Terrell D Lewis
> In article <tf3771to2q5rh7dk7...@4ax.com>, jw <j
> w<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I AGAIN say that "sign gifts" are an issue to divide over, since Satan
>>and his anti-Christ will perform miracles. Consequently signs cannot
>>be a 'proof"of one's Christianity, since Satan can duplicate them.
>>
Only one group considers charismata to be a sign of salvation.
Revelation gives us the two witnesses who will preform wonders, will
they be from Satan?
Cessationists for get that Jesus defined "blasphemy of the Holy SPirit"
as attributing the the works of the Holy SPirit to Satan.
Now, no, we aren't to follow after people just because they can perform
wonders - the measure is fruit, not miracles.
Terrell
bdra...@aol.com
that "the devil may choose to heal you, but Christ won't"? Might we
also suggest the discordance of such philosophy to both apostolic
writings and perceptions of the early Church - to little mention
Christ's references to a continuation of "the works that I do" (John
14:12, etc.) ?
Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/
Bible Bob
Brad,
I do hope the "we" refers to someone other than me. I, for one, would
never make such a statement. It appears that we agree on what is and
what is not currently available through Christ and his people.
There are those, however, who after practicing wrong doctrine for long
periods of time and not "seeing" results because they did not "behave"
according to scripture became disallusioned and rather than changing
themselves, changed "their" interpretation of the Word.
bdra...@aol.com
(as in, "when that which is perfect is come"), we are faced the a
further dilemma in that the New Testament did not exist in its present
form until long after the apostles. In fact, final acceptance of the
New Testament as we know it took place in the latter part of the fourth
century.
What then of the interim?
Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/
Terrell D Lewis
<bdra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1115144546....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> If we are to define the written Scriptures as "that which is perfect"
> (as in, "when that which is perfect is come"), we are faced the a
> further dilemma in that the New Testament did not exist in its present
> form until long after the apostles. In fact, final acceptance of the
> New Testament as we know it took place in the latter part of the fourth
> century.
>
> What then of the interim?
>
Cessationism (the belief that the charismata have ceased) is nothing more
than a doctrine formulated by spiritually dead believers to explain to
themselves and prospective proselytes why they are spiritually dead.
If they scriptures say that:
Mar 16:17,18 - And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name
shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall
take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt
them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
then, it becomes necessary to explain why, if they are believers, these
things aren't happening (and in the process disobey scripture: 1Corinthians
14:39 - Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with
tongues.) instead of looking at themselves and admitting that perhaps they
aren't really believers in the Christ of the scriptures after all.
The biggest problem is:
Mar 3:29-30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Because they said, He
hath an unclean spirit.
according to the scriptures, many Cessationists at one time or another end
up blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing His works to Satan.
Of people like this, Jesus said:
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him
twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Terrell
Antagonist for God
thusly:
>If we are to define the written Scriptures as "that which is perfect"
>(as in, "when that which is perfect is come"), we are faced the a
>further dilemma in that the New Testament did not exist in its present
>form until long after the apostles. In fact, final acceptance of the
>New Testament as we know it took place in the latter part of the fourth
>century.
It wasn't Scripture that was being discussed. They
already had Scripture and people were being converted
using it. I believe it is the Kingdom of God and the
removal of the Old Covenant, which happened in 70 AD.
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
Rolf-Andreas Trinkwasser
"Terrell D Lewis" <compose...@sbcglobal.net> schrieb:
And from your Exposition I draw the Conclusion that you will to drink Poison
under controlled Conditions.
In the other Case, from what you self say, you must be spritually dead.
MfG
Your,
Rolf-Andreas
Bible Bob
Burl,
Are you saying the individual books were not written until the fourth
century or are you saying they were put into a collection in the
fourth century? I think the latter, but just want to make sure.
Thanks
Bible Bob
Terrell,
You said it better than I did.
Bible Bob
Rolf,
It says "if" they drink any deadly thing. It does not say to drink
deadly things. The verse is also qualified by "in my name." And the
the "they" refers back to "them that believe" (are walking in
alignment and harmony with Christ). The verse does not say that every
one of them would do every one of the things stated. One might do
this and another that and still another something else.
Remember Jesus' first miracle when he changed water to wine?
John 2:10 KJV
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good
wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but]
thou hast kept the good wine until now.
The wine Jesus offered was good wine, not watered down. It is the
same thing with the Word. God offered man the pure Word and man took
the pure word and watered it down so that man has very little of the
Word left. Few Christians know how to rightly divide the word of
truth. Few Christians know the rightly divided word of truth and many
Christians become discouraged when what they have been taught is the
Word does not work for them.
The church is full is packed full of cockroaches, parasites who for
the love of money worship their denominational teachings and in doing
so drain the body of its resources. Every wrong doctrine requires
several more wrong doctrines to support it and there are thousands of
wrong doctrines with thousands more wrong doctines to support them.
The word "holy" means pure, free of any admixture. If you add water
to wine it is no longer pure. If you add unholy teachings to holy
teachings in a person's mind that person's mind becomes impure. When
it becomes impure it can not do the things of God.
Rolf-Andreas Trinkwasser
"Bible Bob" <biblebo...@biblebob.net> schrieb:
You got so many Qualifications it is meeningless now.
>
> Remember Jesus' first miracle when he changed water to wine?
>
> John 2:10 KJV
> 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good
> wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but]
> thou hast kept the good wine until now.
>
> The wine Jesus offered was good wine, not watered down. It is the
> same thing with the Word. God offered man the pure Word and man took
> the pure word and watered it down so that man has very little of the
> Word left. Few Christians know how to rightly divide the word of
> truth. Few Christians know the rightly divided word of truth and many
> Christians become discouraged when what they have been taught is the
> Word does not work for them.
>
> The church is full is packed full of cockroaches, parasites who for
> the love of money worship their denominational teachings and in doing
> so drain the body of its resources. Every wrong doctrine requires
> several more wrong doctrines to support it and there are thousands of
> wrong doctrines with thousands more wrong doctines to support them.
>
What has this to do with drinking Poison? You try, the Subject to change.
Please kindly furnish particulars of ANY famous Poisondrinkings by modern
Pfingstlers?
> The word "holy" means pure, free of any admixture. If you add water
> to wine it is no longer pure. If you add unholy teachings to holy
> teachings in a person's mind that person's mind becomes impure. When
> it becomes impure it can not do the things of God.
>
You can add water to wine in Austria and you get a Spritzli. If you want to
come and tell the Drinkers of Spritzli in Wien that their minds would be
unpure, then they will blow you out off their Alpenhorns. You just go and
explain Mr Gouvernour Arnold Schwarzenegger, a notable Leader of your
Country, that he is a unpure Mann for drinking Spritzli and see what he
would make off it. You must not write what is insulting for the Austrian
Culture and our Kitchen.
And iff any Church in the : entire : germanspeaking World would have
Cockroaches in it, we would call the Cleaners and they must to clean up it
rightaway.
So. We are not dirty like some Peoples. I am sorry to must to say even some
european Peoples, and some Americaners too.
MfG
Your,
Rolf-ANDREAS, (please remark full Variant, thanks from the Front).
Tim Thomas
news:d58mbr$967$0...@pita.alt.net...
How were Christians killed by their enemies? Poison was one of the
ways. When Jesus was tempted of the devil what happened?
Matthew 4:6-7 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast
thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning
thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash
thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou
shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
So the passage you quote is taken out of context yet again by those
who want to pick and choose which Bible verses they should believe or
applies to them. Drinking poison, treading on serpents and scorpions has
been so mis-used and abused by right-wing denominations who want any excuse
to deny the Holy Spirit.
--
Tim Thomas
1 John 4:7-13 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and
every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not
knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God
toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that
we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that
he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved,
if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God
at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is
perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because
he hath given us of his Spirit.
Rolf-Andreas Trinkwasser
"Tim Thomas" <maxbl...@comcast.net> schrieb:
So, now you have to be Leftwing in order to have the Holy Spirit. How sweet
is it to be loved by You...think I not.
You Sozialists are so much preaching on about accepting everybody, but when
it really comes onto it, You are the first to exclude others from being
included.
MfG
Your,
Rolf-Andreas
Tim Thomas
Jesus said, "You must be Born Again". That was and is the
requirement for salvation and eternal life.
Bible Bob
Rolf,
You are beginning to behave like an American. Stay German or
Austrian, unless you immigate to the United States. Demoncrats or
demoncraps or democrats; or whatever they are, may be socialists; but
not us good Americans. All real Americans are against socialism. The
left wing radicals are not the ones that have the holy spirit. Nor do
the right wing extremists.
Terrell D Lewis
>
<snip>
>
> So, now you have to be Leftwing in order to have the Holy Spirit. How
> sweet
> is it to be loved by You...think I not.
>
> You Sozialists are so much preaching on about accepting everybody, but
> when
> it really comes onto it, You are the first to exclude others from being
> included.
>
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." Polictics has no place in
the Kingdom of God.
Elsewhere the scriptures state that Satan is the God of this world.
Ultimately, there are two governments at work in the world, the kingdom of
God which exists in the midst of its enemies and the kingdom of Satan which
includes EVERY government of man, whether that be your government or mine,
whether national governments or denominational governments.
There is only one rightful governor, the Creator and His Son.
Terrell
Bible Bob
<r...@at.at> wrote:
Rolf, I did not write the verse. But I can read and I read it in
both the English and the Greek Text in context. Regardless of which
version of the Bible you use, you can always go to the Greek and
verify what the words say and mean. Here "if" means "if" and the
normal rules grammar apply. If God want to use qualifiers and use
standard grammar to express Himself we should allow Him to do it.
It is not meaningless. It says what it means and means what it says.
>
>>
>> Remember Jesus' first miracle when he changed water to wine?
>>
>> John 2:10 KJV
>> 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good
>> wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but]
>> thou hast kept the good wine until now.
>>
>> The wine Jesus offered was good wine, not watered down. It is the
>> same thing with the Word. God offered man the pure Word and man took
>> the pure word and watered it down so that man has very little of the
>> Word left. Few Christians know how to rightly divide the word of
>> truth. Few Christians know the rightly divided word of truth and many
>> Christians become discouraged when what they have been taught is the
>> Word does not work for them.
>>
>> The church is full is packed full of cockroaches, parasites who for
>> the love of money worship their denominational teachings and in doing
>> so drain the body of its resources. Every wrong doctrine requires
>> several more wrong doctrines to support it and there are thousands of
>> wrong doctrines with thousands more wrong doctines to support them.
>>
>
>What has this to do with drinking Poison? You try, the Subject to change.
>Please kindly furnish particulars of ANY famous Poisondrinkings by modern
>Pfingstlers?
Context. Words must be understood in the "context" in which they are
used. Then comparison. I did not say that wine was poisen I
compared pure wine to watered down wine in a biblical sense and then
watered down word to pure Word.
Why would I want to furnish proof from worldly sources? My job is to
furnish proof from the w-o-r-d not the w-o-r-l-d. It's not my job to
"prove" the Word, that's God's job. My job is to speak it.
>
>> The word "holy" means pure, free of any admixture. If you add water
>> to wine it is no longer pure. If you add unholy teachings to holy
>> teachings in a person's mind that person's mind becomes impure. When
>> it becomes impure it can not do the things of God.
>>
>
>You can add water to wine in Austria and you get a Spritzli. If you want to
>come and tell the Drinkers of Spritzli in Wien that their minds would be
>unpure, then they will blow you out off their Alpenhorns. You just go and
>explain Mr Gouvernour Arnold Schwarzenegger, a notable Leader of your
>Country, that he is a unpure Mann for drinking Spritzli and see what he
>would make off it. You must not write what is insulting for the Austrian
>Culture and our Kitchen.
>
Austria. My former fiance was from Austria when I was in Germany.
She used to make me a drink from flavored syrup and water; or maybe
carbonated water which was good. And "Spritz" does sound familiar;
but that was a long time ago.
Why would I want to tell them something like that. I did not say
anything similar to that, above. I said wrong doctrine messed up the
mind, not watered down wine. The next time Arnold and I have a weight
lifting competition, I will bring it up and see what he says. He has
a good sense of humor so I won't have to hurt him :).
>And iff any Church in the : entire : germanspeaking World would have
>Cockroaches in it, we would call the Cleaners and they must to clean up it
>rightaway.
>
>So. We are not dirty like some Peoples. I am sorry to must to say even some
>european Peoples, and some Americaners too.
My experiences in Germany lead to believe that what you say is true.
I used to admire how clean Germany is and ised to admire the people
sweeping their sidewalks. But I was not talking about German
churches, was I? But since you brought it up and since I did spend
several years in Germany in the "church" community, let me ask you why
there are denominations in Germany? Why are there Catholics and
Lutherans, for example? They can not both be right. Which one is
right. If that one is right, why is the other wrong? Because of
wrong doctrine.
When I went to France and England they were not as clean as Germany
(especially France), but I did not say that German's are dirty did I
and I did not say that German's have cockroaches in their churches did
I?
>
>MfG
>Your,
>Rolf-ANDREAS, (please remark full Variant, thanks from the Front).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Non-commercial website where everything is free.
http://www.biblebob.net
BB
Bible Bob
Terrell,
Your are four for four (posts). I do appreciate your posts.
Welcome to free. christians.
Terrell D Lewis
"Bible Bob" <biblebo...@biblebob.net> wrote in message
news:n6gg71l9nioil97v3...@4ax.com...<snip>
> You are beginning to behave like an American. Stay German or
> Austrian, unless you immigate to the United States. Demoncrats or
> demoncraps or democrats; or whatever they are, may be socialists; but
> not us good Americans. All real Americans are against socialism. The
> left wing radicals are not the ones that have the holy spirit. Nor do
> the right wing extremists.
>
Although the example of the first congregation of believers did conduct
their qaffairs as a socialist community, many selling their property and
giving it for the use of all believers, we can not say all believers are
socialists, but we can definitely say that conservative politics is
anti-christian.
But then, not all "real Americans" are against socialism, nor are all "real
Americans" for socialism, or capitalism, or any other "ism." Not that I
intend to go against the scriptures and think America is any better than any
other form of government, all forms of government are permitted by the
Father, but all forms of government are also in opposition to the Father,
but as a person who was born and raised in America, who is "real" enough to
be of Choctaw descent (alright German, Irish, and Choctaw), Americans have
the freedom to be for or against socialism or any form of "ism," but, and a
very big "but," I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God by virtue of rebirth,
and accidently an American by virtue of my first birth.
But, and this is important, if, as Paul says, I am dead in Christ, then I
have died to my first birth and was born again into the Kingdom of God. I
endeavor to live peacefully within the laws of the country in which I find
myself just I did when under my first birth, America sent me to Turkey,
Germany, and Syria, but now, I am here as an Ambassador of the Kingdom of
God.
Terrell
Bible Bob
Terrell,
I was joking with Rolf using hyperbole to lighten things up a bit and
to help him see what he was saying.
With regard to the first century church, what they gave was their
pluralities - what they did not need for their own families as
evidences by the "s" on he end of the words. I do not think that was
socialism. If I have two coats, only need one, and give you the extra
because you are cold; that is not socialism.
Terrell D Lewis
Ah, didn't catch it and I tend to use hyperbole alot. (was, in my youth a
poet - had poems published in various literary magazines around the
country - and still write the occasional song, so I tend to be comfortable
with metaphor).
One problem in America is that people have been taught the "evils of
socialism" so often that they've been blind to the rise and dominance of the
opposite, America is now a Plutocracy controlled by wealthy corporations,
special interests, and individuals. People think they choose their leaders,
but in reality, due to the cost of elections, they get to chose between the
ones able to raise enough money to be there; and they raise the money by
becoming obligated to wealthy corporations, special interests and wealthy
individuals.
As to government of man by man, no man-made form of government works,
socialism is no more evil than what we have now.
Terrell
Bible Bob
<compose...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Terrell,
I think it may have been you or Patty that brought up the under the
Noahic Covenant God permitted human governments for the protection of
mankind (it was Patty). God through Paul in Romans and Timothy speaks
of obeying human laws. What you say is true about the way things
really work in this country, but the original form was far superior to
socialism, communism, or a dictatorship. I think our American form of
government would work if we get the people out of it.
Poetry. Cool. I got a web site with plenty of space if you want
someplace to publish it or your music - no cost of course.
Terrell D Lewis
Here we get into the area of "permissive will" versus "perfect will."
In God's perfect will, God desires that all be saved, but God permits people
to chose for themselves.
In perfect will, and many believe in the future, the earth and all of
creation would be ruled by its creator, under permissive will, God allows
human government, and yes, we obey the authorities permitted by God.
As to America, it actually started as a form of Oligarchy/Plutocracy, and
only through time were non-landowners, women, blacks, and people old enough
for the draft were eventually permittted a vote.
Up until the later portion of the 1800s, corporations were only given a
short time frame of existance and for a specific purpose, at the end of that
time, the corporation was disolved and the assets were divided among the
shareholders. Unlike now, shareholders did not have immunity from actions
the corporation undertook - this chaned beginning in the late 1800s until
the present time.
Until the Carter/Nixon/Reagan years and continuing with recent leadership,
the US was more of a blend - some socialist ideas, some capitalist ideas, a
blend of heart and pragmatism...which more accurately reflected most
Americans, who tend to be centrists rather than conservative or liberal...we
don't mind helping people by giving them a hand up, but we resent giving
hand outs. Now, the heart is gone and we are left with a Plutocracy with
government controlled by the wealthy and the common people slaves to the
corporation - and much of the tax burden shifted to the poor.
Our politics leaves us with two basically similar parties and election night
is more of a sporting event where we get to see which side wins, to the
common people, the end result of the elections means little other than
whether your team won. If America is ever to return to it's heart, we need
a Centrist/Populist uprising at the polls, but, after nearly a century of
rule by the Dems and Reps, they have made the law such that any competition
is hamstrung.
> Poetry. Cool. I got a web site with plenty of space if you want
> someplace to publish it or your music - no cost of course.
>
Funny anymore how often I seem to refer to things that happened 30 years
ago, 30 years ago I had many poems, crossword puzzles, a few short stories
and cartoons published in various magazines, it seems like yesterday. Then
I got married, had kids, and didn't write much. I wrote some songs, but, of
late, I've discovered I like the musical composition end more and have been
composing and arranging for piano and classical guitar. I enjoy music by
people like Suzanne Ciani, Tangerine Dream, Kitaro, Jean-Michel Jarre, and
Michael Oldfield so have been moving towards composing Ambient/New Age (the
music not the New Age religions/philosophies) lite electronica.
I have been thinking about getting a web site to offer my mp3s for download,
but am still in the "thinking about" stage. But, thanks for the offer.
Terrell
Bible Bob
<compose...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Terrell,
Run a web site from your computer if you are on DSL or Cable. All you
need is Abyss Web Server (1.5 MB free program), a domain name, and if
you are not on a static IP, services like those offered by no-ip.com;
and a web site of course.