UPCI Split
ACOxTalljim
And I have heard that they are considering Johnny Godair for the Bishop office
of Superintendent. Any truth to that? Someone was saying that certain officials
in our organization are considering that television is now ok and that taking
the preaching to tv is an option. All rumors, just wondering if there is any
truth to it.
Thanks brothers and sisters.
Also Steve Winter, you have been given notice, do not respond to this.
hehe
Mark Bassett
news:20030616130940...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> What is the truth to the rumor that the UPCI is splitting into two
factions?
> And I have heard that they are considering Johnny Godair for the Bishop
office
> of Superintendent. Any truth to that? Someone was saying that certain
officials
> in our organization are considering that television is now ok and that
taking
> the preaching to tv is an option. All rumors, just wondering if there is
any
> truth to it.
Nope - no truth to the rumor.
People have talked about TV for years. The generation we are in has a lot of
loud voices that tend to project themselves as "in the know", and like to
think that "going on TV" is visionary, in the absence of any sense. After
all, we had a significant personality appear for a book review on TBN. Wow!
You would think the world had pretty nearly ended.
Understand that there are presently pretty near 4,500 churches in this
organization in this country and Canada. When thes voices pretend to know
the heart of the ministers and saints, and come with a urgency of change,
etc etc., you are generallly hearing from a dissatisfied minority, which
resents that it is not in power.
I am personally in favor of allowing advertising, not evangelization, via
TV. But, hey ... perhaps this isnt the best thing.
> Thanks brothers and sisters.
>
> Also Steve Winter, you have been given notice, do not respond to this.
>
> hehe
Yeah right! This dude has nothing better to do. Your notice is like a sign
that says "sewage here ... flies, please do not respond".
brian
"Mark Bassett" <mbasset@not_optonline.net> wrote in message
news:zqnHa.18059$gs5.11...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
OOOO OOO let me try, Has anyone noticed how bla bla bla, Be warned there is
a real Pastor bla bla. Has anyone else noticed bla bla bla, spiritual bla
bla bla, you cant be neutral about bla bla bla, let all real bla bla obey
bla bla , You have been given notice bla bla bla, blabla bla bla bla .
>
>
>
>
>
Billy Jones
factions?
> And I have heard that they are considering Johnny Godair for the Bishop
office
> of Superintendent. Any truth to that? Someone was saying that certain
officials
> in our organization are considering that television is now ok and that
taking
> the preaching to tv is an option. All rumors, just wondering if there is
any
> truth to it.
>
This is just one of the many issues that will result in the change in UPC
behavior. Hundreds of ministers have left the movement in the past few
years, and unless something is done to stop this mass exodus, hundreds more
will follow.
John Sasser
Television was brought up. My Superintendent said it would take more
then three years to change any fundamental doctrine in the Articles of
Faith such as the part about TV, he also stated that he was opposed to
the ideal and did not feel like it would pass. I would not get alarmed
about it just yet but we should all be in prayer for the Unity of the
brethern.
Raymond
"John Sasser" <JLSass...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4976-3EE...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Then what I have seen on the TV they would do better to band it for life,
even in members homes, what good can come from such a thing? One church
service between all the evil and sexual terms and such, cable stations full
of sex and lust etc. The UPCI would do better to never let TV in to the
Church or use such for any reason. The internet has all the same kind of
news and reports as well as sin and lust, does the UPCI prevent the Pastor
from having a internet connection? No, I have been to some UPCI websites,
which is only a mouse click away from other filthy and evil websites. I do
wonder how such a matter will go over in the UPCI, another breakup and
another Apostolic group that follows "the Truth, true holiness" etc. on and
on again.
Raymond
>
Raymond
"Billy Jones" <nos...@nospamearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:KwuHa.47042$rO.46...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Which join other church groups and organizations like I belong to, we
received many ex-UPC pastors each year, as does other Apostolic church
groups do.
>
>
Mark Bassett
news:bcm84k$4j...@rain.i-cable.com...
Which is just fine, and somewhat different in perspective, once we remember
that the ministerial body continues to grow rapidly, as though this "mass
exodus" was just a song that folks like Billy like to croon ... which it is.
Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor
appearing on television, itself, was wrong, but the fact that appearing with the
Las Vegas entertainers, and promotion
of.....................................better not said!
Sin is sin, and you do not overlook it because it is your children that has
committed it.
Mark Bassett wrote:
--
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself
that formed the earth and made it; hath established it, he created
it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and
there is none else.
Mark Bassett
"Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor" <rob...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3EEF5A35...@bellsouth.net...
> Brother Bassett you are correct, but in my opinion it was not the fact
that
> appearing on television, itself, was wrong, but the fact that appearing
with the
> Las Vegas entertainers, and promotion
> of.....................................better not said!
> Sin is sin, and you do not overlook it because it is your children that
has
> committed it.
Even so, I pray we have some understanding for the people involved, and
enough psersonal stength not to be turned over by mere fame, and political
power. Whena person is moving towards areas that are dangerous, and may
indeed be doing so without good motive or leading of the Lord, it is best
not to shove them over the edge with condemnation, to fulfill a prophecy of
hate.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are
spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering
thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor
great Spiritual Strength and wisdom, our judgment may become cloudy and not
clear.
I do pray for that individual as a spiritual mentor and peer and ask God direct
him in these sensitive areas.
To have a judgmental spirit is wrong. When we are directed to pray for our
leaders and restore one that has even gone astray. Never to condemn and mark
them off as not being a Christian and a man of Great Christian Faith and Valor.
If we do, we are taking on the spirit liken unto the one that Steve Winter
entertains.......God help us never to latch on to that spirit......
However, on those lines we are to watch and pray and know them that labor among
us and not take a deaf ear to wrong. If you feel something is not of the
Lord....shy away and stand against it is the best move.
Mark Bassett
> Yes, I agree, because when a family member is involved, sometimes even a
man of
> great Spiritual Strength and wisdom, our judgment may become cloudy and
not
> clear.
> I do pray for that individual as a spiritual mentor and peer and ask God
direct
> him in these sensitive areas.
> To have a judgmental spirit is wrong. When we are directed to pray for
our
> leaders and restore one that has even gone astray. Never to condemn and
mark
> them off as not being a Christian and a man of Great Christian Faith and
Valor.
> If we do, we are taking on the spirit liken unto the one that Steve Winter
> entertains.......God help us never to latch on to that spirit......
>
> However, on those lines we are to watch and pray and know them that labor
among
> us and not take a deaf ear to wrong. If you feel something is not of the
> Lord....shy away and stand against it is the best move.
Thats right, Bro. Taylor, and it is because of the willingness of Christians
in this generation to be yoked in the mindset that you have demonstrated,
that our fellowship WILL survive and will continue to be anointed and have
unprecidented revivial.
Pastor Winter JNAHC
thusly and wrote:
>Brother Bassett you are correct, but in my opinion it was not the fact that
>appearing on television, itself, was wrong, but the fact that appearing with the
>Las Vegas entertainers, and promotion
What a filthy hypocrite we find in the devilish Robert D. Taylor.
Robert is wanting to play "christian" on USENET again.
Quoting from http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
Since Robert D Taylor is a friend and supporter of Mark Bassett I
felt that some this was appropriate here.
Taylorchildabuse10-31-2003.txt This is my 10-31-2002 post where
I point out that Robert D Taylor was advocating child abuse.
Since Robert dove headlong into sin with Mark Bassett he is a
changed man. It is interesting to watch Bassett and others lie to
try to defend their dimbulb buddy.
basstaylor4-19-2003.txt This is my 4-19-2003 to Mark Bassett's
futile attempt to cover for the dimbulb Robert Taylor who has
joined with Mark in his sin and obsession with me. He attempts to
"redefine" the phrase "box her jaw" to be a verbal reprimand
rather than a physical assault.
bassettchildabuse040222003.txt This is my 04-22-2003 reply to
the reprobate Mark Bassett quoting from his post where he changes
his story again and now joins with Robert Taylor regarding the
benefits of boxing a 14 year old girl in the face for discipline.
These reprobate filth astound me!
bassettabuse4-22-2003.txt This is a 4-22-2003 unedited post by
the reprobate Bassett where he states his approval of slapping 14
year old girls in the face depending on the circumstances.
Remember when the scum was defending reprobate Taylor claiming
that "boxed" meant something verbal?
Again here are the words published by Robert Taylor:
Message-ID: <3C41EBDF...@bellsouth.net>
From: "Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor" <rob...@bellsouth.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U)
<snip>
>happening. She spoke and said, "all I know to do is Pray and ask God
>for help". I told her that is what she must do......trust God and Pray
>for guidance.
>I did give her reference to what happened to a guy I work with,
>recently. His daughter had been extremely disobedient, and had been
>giving him some trouble. She is around 14. He asked her to clean the
>mess up in the kitchen and she told him she was not going to do
>it!......He said he became so outraged at her that he "boxed" her
>across the jaw!......
>He told me that it had been two weeks since that happened, and he
>could not ask for a more pleasant young lady.
<snip>
Now if the devilish little liar Robert Taylor was not expounding
upon the benefits of boxing a 14 year old girl in the face, what
exactly was he promoting?
Pastor Winter
--
"Winters, you are a blabbering heretic. In a truly godly
nation you would be executed for publicly promoting your
heretical doctrines." - Tom Albrecht trinitarian deceiver 2000
"Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) - Brian Boggs cultist 2000
"lying to mr. winter is just a defense" - Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999
"It isnt a salvation issue..." - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical holiness
"Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
"...God is Triune in nature..." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
",I did get saved in a Southern Baptist Church," - Raymond Knapp 2000
"..you will not fine Mother Teresa in Hell." - Raymond Knapp 2002
"Paul is not God, and never was God." - Knapp showing his contempt for the Word of God 2003
http://www.impsmail.org documents even criminal activity
http://www.pentecostal.biz Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal
Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor
alikes? Where do you have your TV hide, in the closet?
Twit Winter, you need to try to act like a Christian...it is refreshing and rewarding.......the
end result is a clean heart.
Pastor Winter JNAHC wrote:
--
Raymond
The UPCI is a great group, not everyone would like it, so they move on to
another group. Nothing new about that, it is just like church members,
going to another church of like faith, nearer to them. I'm not in the USA
and know nothing of any "mass exodus". Some of the ministers we fellowship
have moved on to the UPCI and some from the UPCI for political reason mostly
not like Billy for doctrinal reasons will move. What matters is those that
do the exodus, that I have know, do not give up the Oneness, Jesus name
baptism, and such, only have more fellowship and can invite other Apostolic
pastors to their church to minister. I personal have never had any problem
with ministering in the UPC Churches as they have honored me, as one of
their own. We do not see eye to eye, but the end is the same, people are
born again of the water and the spirit, baptized in Jesus name and speak in
tongues when the Holy Ghost moves on them. They still believe in Holiness,
one church I do have close fellowship as I known their pastor for near 35
years now. Has a problem with the UPCI not keeping up to the holiness
standards they hold. No rings, no makeup, no TV, long dresses, long hair,
and such, which in most cases the UPCI folks also follow. He was upset at
finding the UPCI did not give all the church offering they sent to the
missionaries and keep back some, as well as the missionaries home on leave,
could not use offerings given them to live on in the USA, no matter if the
offering was ear marked for them to use in the USA for their needs. I not
going into that here, only saying what he said. No matter what, if their is
an exodus, they aren't going away from the truth, only looking for more
liberty, or fellowship, as I see it.
We will be in the USA for about six weeks, so may not be able to keep up
with the postings. We will have a youth camp the middle of July all
Chinese and the middle of August we will baptize in Jesus name 8 or more
college students, that are now attending services with us. We have to
follow the Laws of the land, and until a person is 18 they can not without
permission from their unbelieving family be baptized, or we could end up in
a law suit or jail. Since we are reaching new people not going after other
church members, these are first time converts, and God is blessing.
In Jesus name,
Raymond Knapp
www.pioneers-for-Jesus.org
Raymond
"Robert D. and Linda J. Taylor" <rob...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3EEF5A35...@bellsouth.net...
that
> appearing on television, itself, was wrong, but the fact that appearing
with the
> Las Vegas entertainers, and promotion
> of.....................................better not said!
> Sin is sin, and you do not overlook it because it is your children that
has
> committed it.
I would agree with you. I remember years ago, I was asked by a local TV
station to come in and give a fifteen minute message and devotional to start
the every day of the week and that would again be aired that night at
closing them. So I open the station with prayer in Jesus name and shut it
down every night that week in Jesus name. The did not charge and I was not
paid, it was all free, and many folks said they enjoyed my 15 minutes each
day and night. I've been interviewed on TV from time to time with Church
paid TV time. We preached the gospel and invited people to the services, no
sin, not promotional kind of stuff. My Father in law, Eugene Garrett,
always put TV spots of one or two minutes to let people know he was in town
and would be praying for the sick. Hundreds came from all over the State.
When they heard on TV as well as Radio that a minister was praying and
people were being healed. The problem with TV is the cost, and like
radio,one doesn't always have a choice of who comes on before and what
preacher will come on next. I know of one Apostolic preacher on the Radio,
preached Jesus name, and the very next program the Trinity pastor did his
best to take the other preacher apart. Which was followed by another
Apostolic that took the Trinity pastor apart on the air, and the anyone that
hear these guys only mock them, and dismissed religion as for the mental
ill.
Raymond
Ron Burdette
The 'upci' is definitely 'split' from the True Church.
Commonly known as a schism. Yes, it did split from her parent
schism of mother 'pente-lostalism', made by man.
><>...Ron
Mark Bassett
"Ron Burdette" <ronaldb...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:6o51fv862qi5a81os...@4ax.com...
Come on, Ron!
Do yourself a favor and get your head out of the sand. Apostolic
Pentecostals are just a very few, and very insignificant in terms of
numbers. The real SCHISM of global proportion, regarded by religious people
with a global perspective is YOUR SCHISM. You see, as a protestant, you are
a SCHISM from Roman Catholicism.
While drifting around internet making yourself feel better by ranting and
raving against a small minority, the fact is, your evangelical
protestantism, or whatever you claim to be a part of is regarded by the
great majority of Christendom, as a historic schism. Of what value is it to
you, to take terminology that was invented by your mother church, to deal
with you, and then turn it around, to direct it at others?
Seems to miss the point, doesn't it, Ronbo?
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>Steve, I will tell you what we are praying for. That you would go away. You're
>a joke. We are all laughing at you.
But, of course without the guts to identify yourself.
It is pathetic that the modern, backslidden, pride engorged UPCI
is producing vicious spiritual trash like the gutless anon "Jim"
and the other filth like Taylor etc who have been corrupted
and ensnared by reprobate Bassett.
Know little scum that a real preacher is praying
for the Lord to reward you according to your filthy works.
I love my neighbor enough to come against you filthy
false-christian dirt who are out here trying to play "christian".
I have enough love for the Brethren in the UPCI to point out that
you are the kind of low life spiritual scum that have dragged the
UPCI down into the sewer.
I love my Oneness brethren enough to come against scum like you
"Jim" and filth like Moon and Taylor and Bassett who are FAKES!
Interestingly here the gutless anon "Jim" is actually a spiritual
whore like his reprobate Bro Bassett their perfunctory flawed
knowledge of Oneness notwithstanding.
Gutless, cowardly, anon, false-christian filth like
"CalifTalljim" AKA j.h...@verizon.net AKA acoxt...@aol.com
(ACOxTalljim) should not at all be considered representatives
of Oneness Christianity.
See what he has endorsed and knowingly supports at
http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
Of course a supporter of Mark Bassett or Mr. Nation should be
VERY ashamed of his identity. Great support Bassett has,
reprobates and gutless, anon net trash. Very authoritative!
Don't judge Oneness Christianity by these anon trash like
"Jim" without even the guts to identify himself.
Real Oneness Christians are not cowards like Jim.
Consider his opinion of equal value with any other
anon trash on USENET.
The gutless anon scum "Jim" was also trying to defend Mr. Nation
earlier (without the guts or integrity to identify himself, of
course).
Just look at the level of low life scum aligned with reprobate
Bassett!!
UPC, please curb your dogs!
Billy Jones
I disagree strongly. I don't know of a single minister who left the UPC who
didn't do it primarily for doctrinal reasons. Of the ex-oneness Pentecostal
ministers I am acquainted with, not a single one still holds to the belief
that Trinitarians are going to hell.
> What matters is those that
> do the exodus, that I have know, do not give up the Oneness, Jesus name
> baptism,
I agree, many still hold to the oneness view of the Godhead and also say
"Jesus" when immersing someone. But those ministers no longer preach the
UPC/oneness Pentecostal theology that if you are Trinitarian or if the
minister says "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" over you, that you will burn in
hell.
> and such, only have more fellowship and can invite other Apostolic
> pastors to their church to minister.
You mean other Apstolic ministers like Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts, Kenneth
Copeland?
> I personal have never had any problem
> with ministering in the UPC Churches as they have honored me, as one of
> their own. We do not see eye to eye, but the end is the same, people are
> born again of the water and the spirit, baptized in Jesus name and speak
in
> tongues when the Holy Ghost moves on them.
Yet there are many who do not follow the oneness Pentecostal salvation
theology that are fellowshipping with those ministers that still hold to the
oneness Pentecostal view of the Godhead and baptism. Those ministers get
along just fine now that they are no longer under the bondage of a cult-like
environment.
> They still believe in Holiness,
> one church I do have close fellowship as I known their pastor for near 35
> years now. Has a problem with the UPCI not keeping up to the holiness
> standards they hold. No rings, no makeup, no TV, long dresses, long hair,
> and such, which in most cases the UPCI folks also follow.
Nope, not true. A very large percentage (and growing) UPC women now trim
their hair (and most hypocritically deny it), wear wedding rings, have TV's
in their home and wear 'foundation' (not makeup...lol). Why can't folks
just be honest?
> He was upset at
> finding the UPCI did not give all the church offering they sent to the
> missionaries and keep back some, as well as the missionaries home on
leave,
> could not use offerings given them to live on in the USA, no matter if the
> offering was ear marked for them to use in the USA for their needs. I
not
> going into that here, only saying what he said. No matter what, if their
is
> an exodus, they aren't going away from the truth, only looking for more
> liberty, or fellowship, as I see it.
You're right, they don't leave truth. They leave the man-made theology and
doctrines which separates them from fellowship with the entirety of the body
of Christ.
>
> We will be in the USA for about six weeks, so may not be able to keep up
> with the postings.
Will you go to 'charismatic', non-oneness Pentecostal churches and solicit
ministerial support, Raymond?
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>I would agree with you. I remember years ago, I was asked by a local TV
>station to come in and give a fifteen minute message and devotional to start
>the every day of the week and that would again be aired that night at
>closing them. So I open the station with prayer
We already knew that you are a spiritual whore, Ray.
No, reprobate Knapp, I guess you just couldn't help lying again,
eh?
You are the scum on record believing in "triunity", reprobate
Knapp.
Raymond Knapp is a reprobate spiritual slut trying to put himself
over as "Oneness missionary".
Some of his email harassment and behaviour is documented at
http://www.impsmail.org/knapp.html in case anyone is inclined
to take him seriously.
Can you say "communist sympathizer", Mr. Knapp? Of COURSE the
communists leave you alone, Mr. Knapp, you are their bubba.
Isn't it amazing the level of filth that comprise the list
of the public supporters of the reprobate Mark Bassett?
Pastor sTeve Winter
Victor Schnapt_
news:2p92fv464qp09un7b...@4ax.com...
> acoxt...@aol.com (ACOxTalljim) spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Steve, I will tell you what we are praying for. That you would go away.
You're
> >a joke. We are all laughing at you.
>
> But, of course without the guts to identify yourself.
Here's a clue from someone who signs his posts, Winter. The only people who
don't laugh at you are the ones who stopped long ago because you're too old a
joke.
You fall short of that which the Bible teaches in so many ways that I can't
believe you actually think you're taken seriously.
I hereby send forth an open call: if you support Steve Winter, please reply now
and say so. All you Steve Winter supporters, please speak up. Delurk for just
one post. And don't be, er, gutless anons, show your face with pride.
Hey Winter, how many do you think will respond?
Michael Oglesby
news:bcsd2v$mk4ss$1...@ID-175339.news.dfncis.de...
Steve Winter claims that Jesus Christ is his Lord, therefore I support him
in that as a brother in Christ. He is obviously a pride engorged "Oneness
Pentecostal" pastor (please excuse the redundancy) who teaches and lives
the "Oneness Pentecostal" false doctrine of hate and idolatry and I do not
approve of his behavior. But his salvation and therefore his brotherhood
is not mine to judge as long as he makes the profession of 'Jesus as Lord.'
Surely you would not judge his brotherhood and therefore his salvation
before the proper time when the one who knows the hearts of man revels
his judgement.
BTW, to the best of my recollection, even Mr. Winter has never called
me "gutless anons." I don't have much to be proud of, but I don't mind
showing my face if you want. Do you think if I hold it very close to my
monitor you can see it? Here, look.
> Hey Winter, how many do you think will respond?
I would assume that there are several Christians on this news group
who are less fixated on what man sees and more on what God expects
of his children. But who knows; only God I think.
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>Here's a clue from someone who signs his posts, Winter. The only people who
>don't laugh at you are the ones who stopped long ago because you're too old a
>joke.
Again, sometimes the level of low life scum who attack me
say more in my behalf than I ever could.
Victor Schnapt_
> "Victor Schnapt_" <sch...@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Here's a clue from someone who signs his posts, Winter. The only people who
> >don't laugh at you are the ones who stopped long ago because you're too old a
> >joke.
>
> Again, sometimes the level of low life scum who attack me
> say more in my behalf than I ever could.
>
> Pastor Winter
That's Steve Winter Code for "I haven't yet been able to build a massive file on
this person to paste into my reply, so I'll just have to call him scum and hope
he goes away."
You're woefully transparent.
Mark Bassett
> "Victor Schnapt_" <sch...@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Here's a clue from someone who signs his posts, Winter. The only people
who
> >don't laugh at you are the ones who stopped long ago because you're too
old a
> >joke.
>
> Again, sometimes the level of low life scum who attack me
> say more in my behalf than I ever could.
That is correct. Any reading Victor's posts will immediately recognize a
person of notable sense, discriminating intelligence, and a no-nonsense
attitude towards jokers like Winter.
When unable to denigrate a person who does not sign their posts, Mr Winter
immediately resorts to denigrating those who do, without cause. Often this
denigration exceeds simple, cheap remarks made on the web. This is the
reason that I advise the casual user NOT to reveal their identity to this
man, or others who haunt the internet.
Raymond
> "Raymond" <rwk...@hotmail.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >I would agree with you. I remember years ago, I was asked by a local TV
> >station to come in and give a fifteen minute message and devotional to
start
> >the every day of the week and that would again be aired that night at
> >closing them. So I open the station with prayer
>
> We already knew that you are a spiritual whore, Ray.
So now it is a whore who prays for the salvation of others, and a whore that
cares for souls. If that be so, to say what you are would be XXXXX rated,
and only you would feel you could use such filthy language from Hell. You
are too ignorant to "knew" anything.
> Pastor sTeve Winter> "Paul is not God, and never was God." - Knapp showing
his contempt for the Word of God 2003
So now Mr. Winter thinks Paul is God! Thank you for letting us know you see
that as contempt when shown that Paul, never was God!
Raymond
P.S. Just for the record, I found this listed in the newsgroup for anyone
interested: http://web.newsguy.com/malchus/winfaq.html Take a look and see
what Steve Winter is doing.
Raymond
different in perspective, once we
> > remember
> > > that the ministerial body continues to grow rapidly, as though this
> "mass
> > > exodus" was just a song that folks like Billy like to croon ... which
it
> > is.
> >
> > The UPCI is a great group, not everyone would like it, so they move on
to
> > another group. Nothing new about that, it is just like church members,
> > going to another church of like faith, nearer to them. I'm not in the
USA
> > and know nothing of any "mass exodus". Some of the ministers we
> fellowship
> > have moved on to the UPCI and some from the UPCI for political reason
> mostly
> > not like Billy for doctrinal reasons will move.
>
> I disagree strongly. I don't know of a single minister who left the UPC
who
> didn't do it primarily for doctrinal reasons. Of the ex-oneness
Pentecostal
> ministers I am acquainted with, not a single one still holds to the belief
> that Trinitarians are going to hell.
Do you even know a single minister that left the UPC for your Trinity
teaching? Then everyone is going to hell without Christ, Trinitarian or
otherwise. More like no Trinitarian is going to Heaven, as belief in such
is not a requirement for Heaven and if that is all the trust in, instead of
Jesus Christ as Lord, they will burn in Hell, with the rest of the
unbelievers. It is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ not the Trinity that
puts a person into heaven, lack of it, Hell is open. Then you are in a
very limited fellowship, and I dare say you do not know even a single
minister that left the UPC to become a member of your belief. Then
doctrinal is only teaching with a church name, all leave because of some
teaching, their major belief is the Same, they are Oneness/Apostolic, and
baptize in Jesus name. I know of none that left the UPCI that has denounced
that truth. Then it is clear, many here that are not in the UPCI still
hold that belief about Trinitarians going to Hell, as their faith is in the
trinity and not the bible truth, so denying the power of salvation. Then a
lot of Oneness folks are going to hell, and I know a lot of Trinitarians
that teach that also.
>
> > What matters is those that
> > do the exodus, that I have know, do not give up the Oneness, Jesus name
> > baptism,
>
> I agree, many still hold to the oneness view of the Godhead and also say
> "Jesus" when immersing someone. But those ministers no longer preach the
> UPC/oneness Pentecostal theology that if you are Trinitarian or if the
> minister says "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" over you, that you will burn in
hell.
The only one I ever heard say such a silly thing is Steve Ray Winter, and
Hell will be his home, unless he repents and follows Jesus. Most that I
know will just say you have not been baptized, if you did not get baptized
in Jesus name. Which says the same, only in a nice way, as they see it,
that a person has to be born again of the water and the spirit. Therefore
if you are not baptized in Jesus name, you do not have the water baptism.
False baptism, are not real, and baptism in error is not acceptable. So
they many not say so, to your face in such a manner, the end is the same.
One can say title names all they wish, without the name of the Lord Jesus,
they mean nothing at all. So they never were baptized, as many Oneness
believer see it.
>
> > and such, only have more fellowship and can invite other Apostolic
> > pastors to their church to minister.
>
> You mean other Apstolic ministers like Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts,
Kenneth
> Copeland?
Nope, Christian minister, that are Oneness only may not be members of the
UPC, but some other of the hundreds of Apostolic minister groups out there.
The one you list like yourself are not Apostolic ministers, they are trinity
ministers, and you know it. Then I know a few that may invite them to
minister, if they see a reason to do so, under the understanding they will
not preach against the teachings of the local church. I personal know of
none that have invited such preachers into their church to minister, that
call themselve Apostolic. Do you know of any?
>
> > I personal have never had any problem
> > with ministering in the UPC Churches as they have honored me, as one of
> > their own. We do not see eye to eye, but the end is the same, people
are
> > born again of the water and the spirit, baptized in Jesus name and speak
in
> > tongues when the Holy Ghost moves on them.
>
> Yet there are many who do not follow the oneness Pentecostal salvation
> theology that are fellowshipping with those ministers that still hold to
the
> oneness Pentecostal view of the Godhead and baptism. Those ministers get
> along just fine now that they are no longer under the bondage of a
cult-like
> environment.
You should look up the term cult, as it also fits many cult-like trinity
churches. The word only means "Adherents of an exclusive system of
religious beliefs and practices." as these are all nouns and the next
difination was "An interest followed with exaggerated zeal" the 3rd is this
"A system of religious beliefs and rituals". So really nothing is evil or
wrong with those that you may call "cult" members.
> > They still believe in Holiness,
> > one church I do have close fellowship as I known their pastor for near
35
> > years now. Has a problem with the UPCI not keeping up to the holiness
> > standards they hold. No rings, no makeup, no TV, long dresses, long
hair,
> > and such, which in most cases the UPCI folks also follow.
>
> Nope, not true. A very large percentage (and growing) UPC women now trim
> their hair (and most hypocritically deny it), wear wedding rings, have
TV's
> in their home and wear 'foundation' (not makeup...lol). Why can't folks
> just be honest?
Excuse me, you don't know that pastor, it is true! Then their hair is long,
not short, and the UPC I understand only makes their Pastors not have TV in
their home. Wedding rings and such are up to the person. Like I said, the
church I know of which is not UPCI, doesn't let its members cut their long
hair, or wear rings or have TV even in their homes. Why can you not be
honest, then it is not a salvation thing, so like many groups, you dress as
they do, to belong. I have taken our rings off, for services in such
churches so not to offend anyone, as requested by their pastor, no big deal.
Then since I do not attend the UPCI churches as I am too busy with what the
Lord has give us to do, I really don't know only be nice if your were wrong,
as I do like their standards of Holiness. It is sad if they loose it.
>
> > He was upset at
> > finding the UPCI did not give all the church offering they sent to the
> > missionaries and keep back some, as well as the missionaries home on
> leave,
> > could not use offerings given them to live on in the USA, no matter if
the
> > offering was ear marked for them to use in the USA for their needs. I
> not
> > going into that here, only saying what he said. No matter what, if
their
> is
> > an exodus, they aren't going away from the truth, only looking for more
> > liberty, or fellowship, as I see it.
>
> You're right, they don't leave truth. They leave the man-made theology
and
> doctrines which separates them from fellowship with the entirety of the
body
> of Christ.
Then what you call the entirety of the body of Christ, seems to toss anyone
in and call them brother or sister. Your man made doctrine is no better
then other church groups. Then what I have read of your post, I would not
want to attend your church, or fellowship you either, because of your man
made teaching.
> >
> > We will be in the USA for about six weeks, so may not be able to keep up
> > with the postings.
>
> Will you go to 'charismatic', non-oneness Pentecostal churches and solicit
> ministerial support, Raymond?
I never go to a 'charismatic' meeting if I know it is such ahead of time,
they have not doctrine at all, as I have seen in the few times I was tricked
into going to such. My support is from Apostolic Churches and from
ministers that believe in the Apostolic teachings. I have a few supporting
churches that are not outwardly Pentecostal, but have no problem with people
speaking in tongues. Then your meaning of oneness and mind may not be the
same. If the church makes a issue, and says one must believe in the trinity
to be saved, I have nothing to do with them. Many so called non-oneness
folks believe as the Oneness people do in only One God. I do not solicit
support from anyone, just let people know what God is doing, and leave it at
that. God has always sent support in.
I have been asked to pray and give a message to a Trade UNION and had three
Mayor's from three cities next to me, as well as a catholic priest and a
Muslims cleric. I open with prayer, they had a prayer, then later I spoke,
and I ended the meeting in Jesus name. I was invited to that meeting by a
member of the Apostolic Church that also worked for the City, and government
agency. They did send a check for my service, which I put all of it, into
the mission work. So really if the POPE sent a offering I use it for the
Lords work, it is not where it comes from, but where it goes when it is
given to a minister of Christ. Again, I will tell people what I do, to any
group, I don't change my doctrine for anyone, they know who I am and what we
believe, if they want to give support, that is fine. I never in 40 plus
years asked anyone for an offering, if they give,fine, if not fine also.
Soliciting support, is not my idea of faith. I have spoken to old folks
homes showed slides and such, to inter-faith groups, and no one has every
told me I had to change my faith to talk to them. In fact I knew a pastor
once that was a pastor of a large trinity church, that knew I was Jesus
name, and asked me to speak to his church, which I did, he gave us support
for years, I asked him why, he said he did not trust others, but he knew for
sure, we did preach Jesus, and Jesus is the only way to God. He didn't
trust his support to trinity missionaries, we use his support to preach
Jesus and baptize people in Jesus name, then he was suppose to be
independent as his church was so called a Full Gospel Church.
Victor Schnapt_
news:87ednb-03Oa...@comcast.com...
If you consider Winter your brother based on his profession of faith, you're
free to do so. My Bible gives a different set of criteria by which I recognize
a brother. How will I recognize a disciple of Christ? If he has love for his
brother. How will I know them that labor among us? By their fruits. A mere
profession of faith is worthless.
Steven W. Buehler, B.A.
Hash: SHA1
"Michael Oglesby" <mi...@sky.net> wrote in message
news:<87ednb-03Oa...@comcast.com>...
> Steve Winter claims that Jesus Christ is his Lord, therefore I
support him
> in that as a brother in Christ. He is obviously a pride engorged
"Oneness
> Pentecostal" pastor (please excuse the redundancy) who teaches and
lives
> the "Oneness Pentecostal" false doctrine of hate and idolatry and I
do not
> approve of his behavior. But his salvation and therefore his
brotherhood
> is not mine to judge as long as he makes the profession of 'Jesus
as Lord.'
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from
thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree
bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree
cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will
enter."
- --Matthew 7.16-21
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? Everyone
who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you
whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and
laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent
burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been
well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly,
is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;
and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and
the ruin of that house was great."
- --Luke 6.46-49
The scriptures speak for themselves.
> Surely you would not judge his brotherhood and therefore his
salvation
> before the proper time when the one who knows the hearts of man
revels
> his judgement.
I assume you use Matthew 7.1 as justification for this statement, but
read the entire context to see Jesus' point:
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you
judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will
be measured to you."
- --Matthew 7.1-2
Jesus' point was not verse 1; it was verse 2: "The standard you use
will also be used on you." There is no issue with applying the
scriptures to the character of one who "claims" to be Christian but
shows no fruit of that claim, as long as I am also willing to be
subject to the same standard of scripture.
SWB
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Michael Oglesby
Certainly I can judge behavior as inappropriate and in need of discipline.
I can judge false teaching. I can judge maturity. I can judge worthiness
to teach or pastor. I can judge disobedience. I can judge with whom
I will associate. I can judge all of the things of this life, and I should
judge
all of the things of this life. All of these things are things I can see.
But I cannot judge the salvation of another. That matter is between
the person and God and has not come to the time for me to judge.
Jesus Christ alone has been authorized to judge the hearts of others.
He alone is worthy to judge the hearts of others. To try judge the
salvation of another who claims to have Jesus as his Lord, regardless
of that person's behavior, is worldly behavior and placing one's own
self in a position that sovereignly belongs to Jesus Christ in this age.
That is just what satan tried and it has not worked out well for him. I
don't think your attempt at it will show much promise either.
1 Corinthians 4:5
"Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord
comes.
He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the
motives
of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
John 5:21-23
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life,
even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to
the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who
does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to
judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you
not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
If Mr. Winter says that Jesus is his Lord, then I must say that he must
be my brother. I agree that my brother needs a spanking, but if he gets
one is my Father's decision.
Michael Oglesby
"Steven W. Buehler, B.A." <ste...@sanctuaryweb.org> wrote in message
news:f76e1dcb.03062...@posting.google.com...
Yes, these verses are referring to false prophets. I would not believe
anything that Mr. Winter says. I still cannot judge his salvation, and
there verses make no exception to the command.
> "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? Everyone
> who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you
> whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and
> laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent
> burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been
> well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly,
> is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;
> and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and
> the ruin of that house was great."
> - --Luke 6.46-49
Great verses. So tell me why do you continue to judge the salvation
of others when Jesus and scripture has said not to. Have you not
heard his words?
> The scriptures speak for themselves.
Very true. We must obey Jesus and not judge the salvation of
others wouldn't you agree. Or are you just saying that Mr. Winter
should obey Jesus and we don't have to. Surely not!
> > Surely you would not judge his brotherhood and therefore his
> salvation
> > before the proper time when the one who knows the hearts of man
> revels
> > his judgement.
>
> I assume you use Matthew 7.1 as justification for this statement, but
> read the entire context to see Jesus' point:
No, Matthew 7.1 has no particular application here. That would
be a false assumption on your part.
> "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you
> judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will
> be measured to you."
> - --Matthew 7.1-2
>
> Jesus' point was not verse 1; it was verse 2: "The standard you use
> will also be used on you." There is no issue with applying the
> scriptures to the character of one who "claims" to be Christian but
> shows no fruit of that claim, as long as I am also willing to be
> subject to the same standard of scripture.
I agree, but the issue is not one of "character" it is one of salvation.
Elsewhere in this thread I have posted verses that command that
we are not allowed to judge the salvation of Mr. Winter. We may
judge his character. Brotherhood is a matter of salvation.
Are you willing to say that you know the hearts of man and can
judge motives and intentions? Are you willing to say that you can
judge when the Father has entrusted all such judgment to Jesus?
Are you willing to ask Jesus to step aside so you can take the
position that the Father has entrusted to him? Satan wanted that
position too and it just has not worked out well for him. Have you
thought about the seriousness of judging the salvation of others?
Mark Bassett
Ray,
I admit to being truly mystified by some of what you write - simply because
I am not sure I am reading what you were intended to write nevertheless, I
like much of what you say, often enough.
Raymond
Thank you, then maybe it is mystified because you are looking at what I say,
from your own perspective and the doctrines you whole so dear. Then I do
not communicate often in English, as all the churches we work with are all
Chinese membership. Which provides interpretation, and they do understand,
and will word what is said, to the level that they have reached in college.
At this time I have a very educated person whose English is just great, so
even in spite of myself, they help un-mystify what I do say. No matter, you
take care.
Raymond
Pastor Winter JNAHC
and wrote:
> scriptures speak for themselves.
The hypocrisy of religious filth like Buehler astounds me!
To these devils the only thing that will appear to be good fruit
will be the sugar coated lies they have learned to love.
Some are very disappointed in me because they were expecting the
same "Catholic lite"™ false christianity that they are accustomed
to in the many sewers of false christianity. They just want
their itching ears scratched with false brotherhood and sugar
coated lies. The Bible addressed this scenario:
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables.
Then we see a clear warning against anything remotely connected
with trinitarianism or any such like tritheistic philosophies.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and
vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of
the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all
principality and power:
And this little bit regarding the RCC and her polytheistic
"Catholic lite"™ denominations or "daughters".
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,
and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a
golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her
fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE
EARTH.
Pastor Steve Winter
Kenneth Wilson
Shalom Shalom
Mark was you thinking of RAMBO?Just courious.If
so you would be correct as well!
Sabellius
>
>
Kenneth Wilson
>
> "John Sasser" <JLSass...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:4976-3EE...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > I attenended the Local sectional conference and the rumour regarding
> > Television was brought up. My Superintendent said it would take more
> > then three years to change any fundamental doctrine in the Articles of
> > Faith such as the part about TV, he also stated that he was opposed to
> > the ideal and did not feel like it would pass. I would not get alarmed
> > about it just yet but we should all be in prayer for the Unity of the
> > brethren.
>
> Then what I have seen on the TV they would do better to band it for life,
> even in members homes, what good can come from such a thing? One church
> service between all the evil and sexual terms and such, cable stations
full
> of sex and lust etc. The UPCI would do better to never let TV in to the
> Church or use such for any reason. The internet has all the same kind of
> news and reports as well as sin and lust, does the UPCI prevent the Pastor
> from having a internet connection? No, I have been to some UPCI
websites,
> which is only a mouse click away from other filthy and evil websites. I
do
> wonder how such a matter will go over in the UPCI, another breakup and
> another Apostolic group that follows "the Truth, true holiness" etc. on
and
> on again.
>
> Raymond
>
> >
>
> Shalom Shalom
Raymond ,Raymond, The Internet is FAR worse
than the Devil box in which you call the TV.Yet UPCI still hasnt seen fit to
discard that from there HOMES.Still the World looks at two examples of being
hypocritical as TWO being on TV ,REGARDLESS of the GENERAL board allowing
them to be on or not.The usage of the Internet as a Media tool to bring
ONENESS Doctrine in the Home also allows INTERNET TRASH as well right along
side of it.Who is your provider again? The point is it is most likely OTHER
than the UPCI Service.
Sabellius
Lee Harrison
UPCI was debating
the allowance of their ministers having televisions. From what I've seen, on
TV myself, I can't
see how this could ever help. But as an UPCI member in good standing, I
believe their to be
a slight difference in the Computer/ Internet ownership and use. In
comparison I'd have to say
that at least there is some control afforded the Internet user, as to the
sites that are chosen, whereas
the use of television is primarily dependant on the Hollywood endorsed
standards of role reversals,
sexual overtones, and bad language, which even if it isn't the content of
the program, it is intruded
upon the viewer during commercial interludes. Which just leaves those which
say they only watch
the weather, or religious broadcasts...to which I'd say, If you can keep it
on the weather channel
you might do OK (but if it is a local station (aired), you've still got the
commercials...and if it's
a subscribed cable service, you have to pay for and receive more than just
the weather channel...
to which most people won't pay for something they don't watch). And to those
watching the Religious
programming channels, my own experience is that, some have shown their
female Ministers in
tights/leotards in aerobics classes (sitting Yoga style in unlady like
fashion), to which I find as
a Christian to be offensive , and of questionable morals. I find that many
of the Religious Programs
have become so world-like, that it's sometime difficult to tell the
difference. That's my two cents worth.
TO: RAYMOND , Like Rev.Bassett, I also like a lot of what you say, you
do well... keep doing it,
except to that of name calling.
To: Kenneth Wilson, one with strong arguments,(though misplaced, I think),
my question to you is,
Why do you sign on and off with Sabelius, who was a Jesus Name-Oneness
Teacher, if you are so
adamantly against these beliefs?
To: Michael Oglesby, I wish my words were as elegant as yours, and I see
that your argument is one
of deep rooted beliefs, but I would ask you these things, If you judge a
person to be a false prophet,
(a teacher of a false doctrine(s) of salvation) do you still say he is your
brother? are you not binding
yourself to his false doctrine? and in conclusion to that I would ask, Did
not Peter judge that a "Jesus
Name Baptized, Believer" called Simon in Acts chapter 8 had "no part or lot
in this matter"... (of salvation)...
and that his "HEART" was not right in the sight of God; and then again did
not Peter in Acts chapter 11 in
his presentation to the Saints of the circumcision judge that the gentiles
of the house of Cornelius were
saved even as the Jews had been, (having had commanded them to be Baptized
in the name of the Lord
in the Acts chapter.10), fulfilling the words of the angel, that Peter would
tell them how that they should be
saved. It just seems to me that Peter was making those very judgments, that
you feel the Saint can't.
The examples seem to contradict your stance.
"Kenneth Wilson" <sabe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xkdJa.7449$C83.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Raymond
"Kenneth Wilson" <sabe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xkdJa.7449$C83.7...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
I do not remember calling the TV the Devils Box, since I got the
international news and report on my TV as I write. Then here in China
everything is censored anyway. They cut so much out that an hour show from
a US program is over in 35 minutes or less. I would think the internet has
everything plus all the evils of TV now, I know my inbox keeps getting SCAM
and other stuff, of filth that I keep setting up to remove so I would not
have to see any of it.
Our mind is suppose to be on the Lord always, and to pray always, and that
does happen if anyone is trying to only see the news reports, without the
trash. Then since I am not in the UPCI, I will not call them names as you
seem to have done. Then what has our provider to do with anything, I am on
cable, and I do not get anything my provider would like me to have, I just
don't have time or the want to, to watch TV. I seen a Star Trek program
last night, rerun to you all, no commercials so that cuts out that stuff.
Turned it off, and finished my postings on the Internet, and went to bed.
What I hear about the TBN and even the Trinity folks are attacking them, who
needs to put on Oneness on TV? Then TV cable, one can get the news, with
out a lot of TRASH. I do know some Churches that do have services on Cable
TV so those that want church can get it, then it would be nice to be able to
get only the group you do belong to, and want to see. I remember even in
Radio, one pastor that was Pentecostal preaching for a half hour on his
doctrine, and the very next program was by a Baptist, that point by point
each Sunday would cut into that the Pentecostal preacher had to say, just
mocked the whole thing, each program. I told the Pentecostal pastor to
change his time, then he came on after the Baptist, and that Baptist I
believe gave up, as his inspiration was gone, and he just didn't have a
ministry anymore, since they put another Baptist group on before him, and
the Pentecostal came on just before the news program. Well this is going no
where, have a nice day, and if you don't need TV toss it, only the kids will
go down to a friends house and you will have no control then over what they
see. Burn if you do, and burned if you don't. Then that is life here on
earth. Oh yes the news went off, and so did the TV. who needs it?
Raymond
>
>
>
> Sabellius
>
>
Mark Bassett
> > > > I hereby send forth an open call: if you support Steve Winter,
please
> > > reply now
> > > > and say so. All you Steve Winter supporters, please speak up.
Delurk
> for
> > > just
> > > > one post. And don't be, er, gutless anons, show your face with
pride.
> > > > Hey Winter, how many do you think will respond?
> If Mr. Winter says that Jesus is his Lord, then I must say that he must
> be my brother. I agree that my brother needs a spanking, but if he gets
> one is my Father's decision.
There's one!
Michael Oglesby
news:EVDJa.31636$8f.13...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What's the matter, are you ashamed of who calls Jesus Lord? Or is it
because you and Mr. Winter preach exactly the same false doctrine?
Mark Bassett
Mike, calm down. We just identified one Steve Winter supporter, thats all.
If another comes along, you can give the hat to him.
Michael Oglesby
Just as I support you as a brother in Christ (according to your word) I
support
Mr. Winter. However, I do not support your behavior or false doctrine just
as
I do not support his behavior or false doctine.
Neil Roy
> If you consider Winter your brother based on his profession of faith, you're
> free to do so. My Bible gives a different set of criteria by which I recognize
> a brother. How will I recognize a disciple of Christ? If he has love for his
> brother. How will I know them that labor among us? By their fruits. A mere
> profession of faith is worthless.
Very well put. I definately wouldn't call someone my brother who shows
nothing but hatred and contempt toward others and constantly throws
verbal insults at them calling them "scum", "trash" etc... this is not
showing love, it is showing hatred.
If Christ's own apostle Peter showed no hatred or contempt for the very
people putting him to death, than niether should he. (Peter's last
words were ones asking God to forgive those that were killing him!)
--
Neil Roy - http://home.cogeco.ca/~nroy15
"O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and
keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and
with their children for ever!" - Deuteronomy 5:29
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>
> Very well put. I definately wouldn't call someone my brother who shows
>nothing but hatred and contempt toward others and constantly throws
>verbal insults at them calling them "scum", "trash" etc... this is not
>showing love, it is showing hatred.
I would not claim some filthy false-christian scum like Neil Roy
a brother. Let's research how the Lord Jesus Christ related
to falsely religious scum like Neil Roy.
I believe that many of our readers have some serious
misconceptions about the Lord of the Bible, who was the perfect
example for the Christian..
I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ
also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should
follow his steps:
I Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his
mouth:
I Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he
suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that
judgeth righteously:
But let us also look at a particular situation that shows us the
Lord exhibiting unusual behaviour; and that is, when he
encountered false preachers, false religionists, deceivers etc.
Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can
ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear
beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and
of all uncleanness.
Looking carefully at verse 27. In our modern language "full of
dead men's bones and all uncleanliness" would roughly translate
as the modern term "scum". That tells me that if the Lord was
walking our streets today and encountered a denominal trinitarian
preacher, that He would call him/her/it "scum", "snake",
"hypocrite".
"Love incarnate" didn't coddle false preachers. The Apostle Paul
instructs us should we encounter anyone preaching other than the
original Acts 2:38 message:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any
other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.
(Check out Acts 19, if you have any doubts that Paul adhered to
the Acts 2:38 re-birth of WATER and SPIRIT.)
Would Jesus Christ call you and/or your preacher "scum" ? If
he's not preaching the Acts 2:38 Apostolic message and Biblical
holiness, He sure would!
I hope this helps.
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
Michael Oglesby
"Neil Roy" <m...@here.now> wrote in message
news:E8PLa.38081$b67.4...@read2.cgocable.net...
> Victor Schnapt_ wrote:
>
> > If you consider Winter your brother based on his profession of faith,
you're
> > free to do so. My Bible gives a different set of criteria by which I
recognize
> > a brother. How will I recognize a disciple of Christ? If he has love
for his
> > brother. How will I know them that labor among us? By their fruits. A
mere
> > profession of faith is worthless.
>
> Very well put. I definately wouldn't call someone my brother who shows
> nothing but hatred and contempt toward others and constantly throws
> verbal insults at them calling them "scum", "trash" etc... this is not
> showing love, it is showing hatred.
> If Christ's own apostle Peter showed no hatred or contempt for the very
> people putting him to death, than niether should he. (Peter's last
> words were ones asking God to forgive those that were killing him!)
You want Mr. Winter to apply that principle, but you want to judge his
heart. That judgement is reserved for Jesus Christ alone. When you
make a judgement of his salvation, you try to usurp the throne of Jesus
Christ. That is what Satan tried.
How much better to follow what you claim about Peter and not have your
hate to him. Of course that does not mean that you need to approve his
behavior. Correct his behavior, but his salvation is not yours to judge.
ACOxTalljim
>From: "Michael Oglesby" mi...@sky.net
>Date: 6/30/2003 5:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <NyKdnWSNVN1...@comcast.com>
>
>
>"Neil Roy" <m...@here.now> wrote in message
>news:E8PLa.38081$b67.4...@read2.cgocable.net...
>> Victor Schnapt_ wrote:
>>
>> > If you consider Winter your brother based on his profession of faith,
>you're
>> > free to do so. My Bible gives a different set of criteria by which I
>recognize
>> > a brother. How will I recognize a disciple of Christ? If he has love
>for his
>> > brother. How will I know them that labor among us? By their fruits. A
>mere
>> > profession of faith is worthless.
>>
>> Very well put. I definately wouldn't call someone my brother who shows
>> nothing but hatred and contempt toward others and constantly throws
>> verbal insults at them calling them "scum", "trash" etc... this is not
>> showing love, it is showing hatred.
>> If Christ's own apostle Peter showed no hatred or contempt for the very
>> people putting him to death, than niether should he. (Peter's last
>> words were ones asking God to forgive those that were killing him!)
>
>You want Mr. Winter to apply that principle, but you want to judge his
>heart. That judgement is reserved for Jesus Christ alone.
Trust me, Winter's heart is as black and cold as his name. He is a joke, he is
a loser with a capital L. Everyone on here laughs at him, and he is an
embarrassment to the church.
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>Trust me, Winter's heart is as black and cold as his name. He is a joke, he is
>a loser with a capital L. Everyone on here laughs at him, and he is an
>embarrassment to the church.
Sometimes the level of scum who attack me, especially the
gutless anon slime like "jim" say more in my behalf
than I ever could.
I love my neighbor enough to come against you filthy
false-christian dirt who are out here trying to play "christian".
I have enough love for the Brethren in the UPCI to point out that
you are the kind of low life spiritual scum that have dragged the
UPCI down into the sewer.
I love my Oneness brethren enough to come against scum like you
"Jim" and filth like Moon and Taylor and Bassett who are FAKES!
Interestingly here the gutless anon "Jim" is actually a spiritual
whore like his reprobate Bro Bassett their perfunctory flawed
knowledge of Oneness notwithstanding.
Gutless, cowardly, anon, false-christian filth like
"CalifTalljim" AKA j.h...@verizon.net AKA acoxt...@aol.com
(ACOxTalljim) should not at all be considered representatives
of Oneness Christianity.
See what he has endorsed and knowingly supports at
http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
Of course a supporter of Mark Bassett or Mr. Nation should be
VERY ashamed of his identity. Great support Bassett has,
reprobates and gutless, anon net trash. Very authoritative!
Don't judge Oneness Christianity by these anon trash like
"Jim" without even the guts to identify himself.
Real Oneness Christians are not cowards like Jim.
Consider his opinion of equal value with any other
anon trash on USENET.
The gutless anon scum "Jim" was also trying to defend Mr. Nation
earlier (without the guts or integrity to identify himself, of
course).
Just look at the level of low life scum aligned with reprobate
Bassett!!
UPC, please curb your dogs!
Pastor Winter
Raymond
The shame of it, is most do laugh at Mr. Winter, only he is not going
to heaven with the kind of words he uses, so everyone should not laugh
at him, but pray for his salvation. That God will send someone to
him, and convert him to the living Christ. It seems he thinks the
Water of Baptism saved him, instead of the Christ and His blood. He
seems to think he has the truth, and so our prayers are needed to save
this evil person. A so called pastor with out the Lord as his Pastor,
leading people down the path to Hell, and doesn't see it that way.
He really needs prayer then laughts.
Raymond
Pastor Winter JNAHC
>
>Raymond
You are the scum on record believing in "triunity", reprobate
Knapp.
Raymond Knapp is a reprobate spiritual slut trying to put himself
over as "Oneness missionary".
Some of his email harassment and behaviour is documented at
http://www.impsmail.org/knapp.html in case anyone is inclined
to take him seriously.
Can you say "communist sympathizer", Mr. Knapp? Of COURSE the
communists leave you alone, Mr. Knapp, you are their bubba.
Isn't it amazing the level of filth that comprise the list
of the public supporters of the reprobate Mark Bassett?
Pastor sTeve Winter
Stevewinterisaputz
<steve....@prime.org> was blabbling:
...Some of his email harassment and behaviour is documented at
...http://www.impsmail.org/knapp.html in case anyone is inclined
...to take him seriously.
and in case anyone is inclined to take this FAKE CHRISTIAN WEENIE
SERIOUSLY
READ BELOW!
The Steve Winter FAQ v3.13
This is version 3.13 of the FAQ. Thanks to those who have contributed
information. If you have information for the FAQ, please forward it to
me.
Mr. Winter's attempts to rebut this FAQ can be found on his anti-
Christian "Impsmail" site at http://www.impsmail.org/spssold.htm. It
must be noted that Mr. Winter is using a very old version (1.7 - from
Nov 1996) of the FAQ, and falsely attributing it to a corporation.
This FAQ is © 1996-2003 by Stephen M. Adams. All rights reserved.
Reproduction is permitted, so long as the author and publisher are
correctly identified and the FAQ is reproduced in its entirety. Links
to this page are welcome and encouraged.
100. Who is Steve Winter?
Steve Winter is a defrocked pastor (apparently by the same man who
ordained him - Marvin Arnold) and the operator of a system known as
"PRIME.ORG". He lives in Durham, NC, and is also a re-seller of
computer equipment1. At one point, he had begun to re-sell internet
services (presumably from PSI), though that ISP TOS'd him (see below).
He no longer lists internet access on his web page.
Mr. Winter claims to be a Pastor representing "Jesus Name Apostolic
Holiness Church, Inc." He operates a Web page (http://www.prime.org )
which describes his particular doctrinal distinctive. He claims the
page is a ministry of the aforementioned church.
Mr. Winter's known current email id's are:
steve....@prime.org
st...@prime.org
cancel...@prime.org
sup...@prime.org
stev...@prime.org
[Note: anything from prime.org is almost certainly from Mr. Winter]
Previous known email accounts (used since October 95, but not
recently):
rev...@aol.com
stev...@ix.netcom.com
stev...@cris.com
stev...@cris.com
steve....@worldnet.att.net
stev...@gte.net
steve....@ibm.net
inte...@prime.org
postm...@prime.org
po...@prime.org
sysop....@prime.org
Be warned that if you send him even a single email, it is likely that
he will complain to your provider or employer that you are harassing
him. See below for details.
Note: With regards to AOL, Mr. Winter claims that " They kept trying
to get me to take more time free." I am sure they did - everyone
receives these in the mail. In other words, he got a CD or diskette in
the mail via one of AOL's mass-mailings. Hardly proof that they wanted
him back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
101. What is PRIME?
PRIME stands for PreRapture(tm) International Message Exchange. It is
Mr. Winter's personal network of BBS's. They carry various forums for
his sect. You can access a list of the forums by downloading the file
"prime.zip" from his WWW. He also provides information on home
schooling, and his legal dealings with his ISP's.
Mr. Winter's web page used to contain articles from Reverend Marvin
Arnold, the man who ordained him. It also appears that Mr. Winter was
defrocked, though it is not clear if this was by Marvin Arnold or not.
The articles were removed after some kind of falling out between them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
102. What is "Jesus Name Apostolic Holiness Church, Inc."?
This organization does not appear to be anything other than the
corporate charter for a religious organization. This is fairly
standard practice for churches, but generally that religion
corporation then may not engage in certain businesses, or if it does,
must properly delineate its for-profit and non-profit business.
A check fo the North Carolina Secretary of State's records no longer
shows the corporate registration (03/08/03). Mr. Winter may have
dissolved the corporation, allowed it to lapse, or re-registered it in
a different state.
Mr. Winter used to use the same server for both his religious and
business operations, though his business is now hosted by Interland.
This move was apparently precipitated by an IRS investigation of his
ministry and his business.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
103. What is Mr. Winter's "modus operandi"?
Steve Winter posts lengthy duplicate messages stating his positions,
often simply reposting verbatim his scriptural citations with no
supporting exegesis. These messages are usually massively
cross-posted, without regard to whether or not the message is on topic
for the group. A careful examination of these posts will see that many
are simply "cut and paste" work from files on his website.
With the cancellation of his GTE.NET account, Mr. Winter's posting
volume had decreased dramatically. Once he gained news access again,
the volume returned to previous levels. Through it all, he has not
changed his style or methods, and continues to issue threats against
ISP's and individuals.
In the past, Mr. Winter has harassed numerous groups, including
soc.religion.quaker, uk.religion.* and christnet.*, so badly that the
Christnet groups and the uk.religion.* groups voted for moderated
status, aus.religion.christian is now retro-moderated (against
cross-posting outside of the aus groups), the Quakers discussed but
rejected moderation, and a promisekeepers group has recently been
created as a moderated group in the soc.religion hierarchy.
If anyone questions Mr Winter or his theology, he responds by:
Calling the person a "Lying, dirt, false Christian scum," or some
variation thereof.
Posting a slightly modified version of his "Acts 2:38" posting, or one
of his other "canned" responses. He modifies them just enough to avoid
the SPAM detectors. He seems to have about 10 to 12 different ones.
See item 109 below.
If the person sends him email to try and debate the issue, he sends a
"do not ever email me again" message. Similarly, any attempt to
discuss his abuse of newsgroups is treated similarly. He claims to
save such email in an "evidence file" for later prosecution. In
several cases, he sent a harassment complaint based on a single email.
On occasion, he skips this step and goes to step 4.
He emails and or calls the service provider or employer of the person
who disagrees with him to have their account pulled or service cut
off. He attempted this with me both by calling my company and by
calling my service provider. In both cases, he was more or less
laughed at. My ISP did not require me to take any action at all.
Several correspondents have reported similar action by Mr Winter,
including emails and calls to employers. In most cases, fortunately,
no action was taken. In others, employees have been asked to remove
signature lines that reflected on the company, etc. Mr Winter seems to
prefer silencing his opposition to actually trying to win debates.
If he does not get satisfaction, he either makes harassing phone calls
(several people have reported this, and I have experienced it
personally) or begins posting hate-filled falsehoods to newsgroups
about the person.
If he is unsuccessful in the above, in at least one case he has
resorted to an attempt to extort $50,000 from the employer of one of
his opponents. He has also resorted to posting false and defamatory
statements about the employer on investment and other groups. He tried
to extort money from one of my previous employers as well.
He has claimed to have filed numerous police reports and made
complaints to the FBI in an attempt to silence those who disagree with
his methods and/or theology. It does not appear that any action has
been taken by any law enforcement agency on his behalf. Mr Winter has
been repeatedly asked for case numbers or the names of the law
enforcement professionals involved, but has never given any evidence
at all that his claims are true.
In addition, Mr. Winter has claimed to have written several letters to
Senator Jesse Helms. Recently, he has claimed that he received a phone
call from Senator Helms office saying that they were looking into his
child pornography allegations. A copy of the FAQ has been sent to
Senator Helms. This appears to be his current choice of tactics, since
he was quite unsuccessful in his recent lawsuit against Concentric.
In numerous cases, Mr Winter either filed lawsuits or threatened ISP's
with lawsuits. See section 104 for details of actual and threatened
lawsuits.
Harassment of regional Newsadmins. Several Regional News
administrators who enforce the charters of their regional NON-USNET
groups report getting email and phone calls from irate users who claim
that they received email from 'cancel...@prime.org', claiming that
their article was censored from the net. This is sent not only to the
user, but also to any identifiable news host that might have carried
the original cancel. See item 110 below.
Mr. Winter is, in this case, clearly trying to drum up support against
News Admins who are doing their job. I have seen several of his email
complaints, and copies of this FAQ have been forwarded to several ISPs
and system administrators. See http://www.prime.org/cwatch.htm for Mr
Winter's version of events.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
104.Lawsuits, threats and legal complaints by Mr. Winter
For a good analysis of the legal claims and issues raised by Steve
Winter, check www.stevewinter.com, a web page created by Peter Wm.
Sachs, Esq .
UPDATE: A lawsuit has been filed!
Steve Winter has filed several lawsuits, and made at least one formal
complaint against various ISP's. These include Concentric (settled),
Netcom (settled) and Nando (dismissed). He has claimed in the past
that he intends to file against PSI, GTE, SPSS and Steve Adams (that's
me!).
Here is the status of each of these suits, as best as can be
determined:
Nando
Mr. Winter dropped this case (dismissed without prejudice) apparently
based on an agreement with someone at Nando Net. At some point
following this, Nando once again suspended his access and he states
that he is going to re-file the case. It should be noted that Nando is
no longer an independent ISP.
Netcom
This case was settled out of court. I have it on fairly good authority
that Mr. Winter received payment from Netcom to drop the suit. I do
not have written confirmation of the amount, but I have been told it
was at least $10,000.
Concentric
Concentric used several legal maneuvers to fight Mr. Winter, including
having the case removed to Federal Court and filing a counter-suit.
Mr. Winter claims the case was settled out of court.
Mr Winter has changed his web page to remove any reference to the
Concentric lawsuit (it used to say that an out of court settlement was
pending.) He also added the following text to this page:
There have been no rulings or judgments against Steve Winter or
prime.org in ANY of the legal actions undertaken by Steve Winter or
prime.org in these matters.
Based ont his comment, it would appear that Concentric was quite
successful in defending the lawsuit, and that Mr Winter agreed to some
kind of penalty (perhaps dismissing his complaint with prejudice - ie
he can't refile it) and that he wants to hide that fact by making the
statement (true, of course) that the *court* didn't rule against him
or impose any penalties. I suspect his desire to reach an out-of-court
settlement was driven by a fear that sanctions from the court would
prove that he is a net abuser
During this case, he was admonished by the Court for submitting
blatant obscenity in his filings, and was told not to repeat it on
threat of sanctions.
PSI
Mr Winter is once again threatening a lawsuit against PSI. He first
did this in late 1996, but removed most of the information when PSI
threatened to shut down his site completely, instead of just blocking
his NNTP (news) access.
He did post an article on January 18th stating that he is consulting a
lawyer about his case against PSI, as opposed to proceeding pro se as
he has in the past. In addition, since moving to a new provider, he
has restored his threats of a lawsuit to his website. See
http://www.prime.org/legal/psi for details.
GTE
Mr Winter sent a letter to (then) Senator Jesse Helms, the North
Carolina Attorney General's office and "various law enforcement
agencies" regarding GTE's "publication" of certain UseNet newsgroups.
See http://www.prime.org/legal/gte for details.
A few years ago, an employee of GTE.NET stated publicly on UseNet that
Mr. Winter's account was canceled for violation of their TOS.
IBM
Mr Winter sent a letter to (then) Senator Jesse Helms regarding IBM's
"publication" of certain UseNet newsgroups. See
http://www.prime.org/legal/ibmnet for details.
AT&T
Mr Winter has filed a formal complaint with the North Carolina
Attorney General's office about AT&T canceling his account. See
http://www.prime.org/legal/att for details.
SPSS
Mr. Winter sent a letter he was pleased to call "An out of court
settlement offer" to SPSS. Having read the letter, it is nothing more
than an attempt to extort $50,000 from SPSS. I say this because the
thrust of the letter is to say "Pay me $50K or I'll sue you." That
sure sounds like extortion to me.
His reasoning for trying to extort this money was to silence me -
since a few early versions of the FAQ were posted from SPSS. It needs
to be made clear that the FAQ is my work, it was never sanctioned by
SPSS and they would never have given their approval if I had asked. I
didn't ask. Mr. Winter has even admitted this in a post to usenet.
Click here to see it.
To date, as far as I can tell, no action has been taken on this
lawsuit. Mr. Winter did not include SPSS as a defendant in his
Multi-defendant suit (see below).
Stephen Adams
See below for the "Multi-defendant suit" that Mr. Winter has filed.
Mark Bassett
Mr. Winter has actually filed a complaint with the Durham Police
Department about alleged harassment by Mark Bassett. The report is
IR-98-11737. Note that this appears to be nothing more than a basic
complaint which can be made by any person. It is most specifically NOT
a case and NOT criminal charges as Mr. Winter has said in UseNet
posts. To date, no action has been taken by any officer of any court
to actually charge Mr. Bassett with a crime.
It appears that the dispute between Mark Bassett and Steve Winter
stems from a previous time when they were engaged in some kind of
cooperation. Mr. Winter has filed well over 75 complaints with the
Durham police, but as yet, nothing appears to have come of any of
them.
See below for the "Multi-defendant suit" that Mr. Winter has filed.
MPCS; FDMA; Spinne, Inc (and others)
Mr. Winter is once again threatening FDMA with a lawsuit for "
conspiring with the ISP's" to deny him Internet service. See his
"Cancel Watch" pages at http://www.prime.org/cwatch.htm for details.
He is also threatening any other providers that he calls "accessories
with mpcs.com" with legal action. FDMA and mpcs were not named in his
Multi-defendant suit (see below).
Multi-defendant Lawsuit Filed by Mr. Winter
On April 15, 2002, Mr. Winter filed a civil suit in the State of North
Carolina against 22 defendants::
Mark Bassett (a public rival and leading critic on the Internet)
Peter W. Sachs (publisher of www.stevewinter.com)
Michael Schidell (an internet critic)
Stephen Adams (publisher of the Steve Winter FAQ - i.e. this document)
William Cousert (an internet critic)
Camille Klein (an internet critic)
David Ratcliffe (an internet critic)
Donnie R. Hayes (involvement unknown)
William A. Miller, Jr. (involvement unknown)
Jerry Moon (an internet critic)
Carl McCaskey (an internet critic)
Mark Gwynn (involvement unknown)
Brian Boggs (publisher of a web site critical of Winter)
Andy Engle (an internet critic)
Gospel Films, Inc., (publisher of the gospelcom.net web site and
hosting service for the Apologetics Net web site)
Verizon South, Inc. (incorrectly identified as successor to the
gte.net domain who disconnected Winter’s internet access for TOS
violations)
Time Warner Telecom Holdings (incorrectly identified as operator of
the RoadRunner high-speed service [rr.com] and Steven Buehler’s
current ISP)
Steven Buehler (an internet critic and publisher of an exposé web
site
critical of Winter)
AT&T (Steven Buehler’s employer and one-time ISP via AT&T WorldNet)
PSI Net, Inc., (now-bankrupt ISP who disconnected Winter for TOS
violations)
Yahoo!
KC Data Corporation a.k.a. Slurp.net (now-defunct web hosting service
which hosted sites critical of Winter).
His original state suit alleges six causes of action including civil
conspiracy, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and failure
of ISPs to prevent actions by their users, as well as RICO law
violations; and demands a jury trial on the issues. The case has since
been removed to Federal Court by the corporate defendants.
In the course of the case, Mr. Winter's attorney missed numerous
filing and response deadlines, and he was not granted an extension by
the courts to file responses. In my case, Mr. Winter was over 90 (yes
ninety) days late in filing his response.
A selection of filings in the case:
Winter: Original Complaint
Adams: Motion to Dismiss
Adams: Motion to oppose Winter motion to extend time
Adams: Motion to oppose tardy filing by Winter
As of September 13, all timely filed motions were submitted to the
judge for disposition.
A recent Supreme Court ruling on private RICO suits appears to apply
here, and would seem to be cause for dismissal of most of Mr. Winter's
claims.
Other Actions
Besides these lawsuits and threats of lawsuits, Mr. Winter has also
filed a complaint against AT&T with the North Carolina Attorney
General's office. Nothing has come of this as far as anyone is aware.
Mr. Winter has also filed several complaints with (then) Senator Jesse
Helms office, stating that he received a letter and a telephone call
from (then) Senator Helms office. It appears that initially he
received a form letter saying that his complaints about pornography
were being forwarded to the Justice Department. Recently, as noted
above, he claims to have had a telephone call from (then) Senator
Helms' office.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
105. What kinds of tricks does Mr Winter pull?
When Mr. Winter is kicked out of a group (eg alt.org.promisekeepers),
he tries to use that as a way of harassing people. For example, when
the aforementioned group set up an anti-crosspost bot, he posted to
other groups, but set the follow-ups to include a.o.p. This would
cause replies to his posts to be auto-canceled.
Mr. Winter also would post to 10 or 15 "Big 8" and regional groups,
but set follow-ups for one "alt" group which did not have good
propagation. If the reply was restricted to 1 or 2 "on-topic" groups,
he would put back all of the off-topic groups and again restrict
follow-ups. In recent times, he has begun to honor follow-ups in the
aus.* groups, and occasionally in his usual cross-post lists, though
he (understandably) often removes alt.fan.steve-winter from his posts.
Late last fall, Mr Winter began issuing cancel messages for "NoCeM"
posts in alt.nocem.misc. The purpose of the "NoCeM" posts is to allow
those who do not wish to see any of Mr. Winter's posts to have them
automatically ignored by their newsreader. His cancels were the
proximate cause, along with his SPAM of the fl.* newsgroups for PSI
blocking his NNTP access. He has solicited an attorney in misc.legal
to represent him in a lawsuit against those sites and users who post
the "NoCeM" articles.2 Mr. Winter's claim that NoCeM posts are
censorship are patently false, in that nothing is canceled, and they
are used only by those who want to use them. They do not remove his
articles nor interfere with his articles movement from one system to
another. Since Mr. Winter's current UseNet access does not allow him
to issue cancels, he has ceased doing so. It remains to be seen what
will happen if he regains full NNTP UseNet access.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
106. Where has Mr Winter been banned?
Mr Winter has, at one time or another, been removed/banned/canceled or
had submissions rejected by the following groups/networks/ISP's:
FIDO net 3
Netcom 4
Concentric Network (cris.com) 5
AT&T ( Worldnet.att.net) 6
Nando.net 7
PSI Net (NNTP access blocked) 8
RIME, ILink & Intelec networks (for flames, personal attacks and
harassment) 9
GTE Networks (for net abuse)10
IBM.NET (for net abuse)11
alt.org.promisekeepers (robo-canceled for excessive x-posting, new
moderated soc group created)
soc.reli.christian.bible-study (some posts rejected due to charter
violations). He is welcome to post if he follows the rules.
christnet.* (became 100% moderated due to his harassment)
uk.religion.christian
aus.religion.christian (retro-moderated against cross-posts outside
aus.religion due to his harassment)
atl.*
fl.* (robo-canceled for excessive SPAM, off-topic post, failure to
follow charters, etc.)
ga.*
Note also that he may have or may in the future obtain new accounts
from these providers/networks. This list is only meant to show a
history of his accounts, not give a list of where he does or does not
have access at any given moment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
107. Why has Mr Winter been banned?
He was TOS'ed from Netcom, Concentric Networks, PSI and GTE Networks,
and the same appears to be true for AT&T Worldnet and Nando. The
newsgroups banned him either for excessive cross-posting or failure to
abide by the Charter, or both. In the case of the Bible Study group,
he refused to refrain from making personal attacks on other members of
the group. His theology was never an issue in his being banned (though
he clearly did not like being challenged on it), and anyone who
examines the content of the Bible Study (see www.google.com for
soc.religion.christian.bible-study) group will see that opinions from
every side of an issue are permitted, so long as the Charter is
followed. There have been several lengthy debates on Oneness and Acts
2:38 in the group, with a couple of Mr. Winter's BBS moderators taking
part. Mr. Winter claims that Charters have no force and he is not
bound by them. If he would agree to abide by the Charter, his posts
would be welcomed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
108. What else does Mr. Winter do that causes him problems on the net?
Mr. Winter runs a business that supplies consumer electronics and
computer-related hardware. He has, in the past, posted advertising for
his business in places which do not generally accept advertising or
where the advertising is off-topic. He has had numerous articles
canceled for this over the past several years. In addition, he posts
material to regional groups which do not want it, and have charters
which state that the material he is posting is not permitted in the
group. Most of this has to do with his business, but at times it is
religious in nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
109. What should you do?
If Mr. Winter is violating general nettiquette, contact the
administrator of the site he is posting from (generally "news@site" or
"postmaster@site"). Respond to him in the newsgroup as necessary, but
do not try to contact him directly, nor send him anything via email or
regular mail. In other words, work with the system and do not harass
him.
Prime.org and Impsmail.org appear to be hosted by Interland.
(www.interland.net). If you are referring to anything from those two
sites, and you believe that it is an abuse or violation of Terms of
Service issue, contact ab...@interland.com for assistance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
110. Is Steve Winter a SPAMMER
The answer to this question seems to be "Yes". He has deftly avoided
the automatic SPAM detectors by altering the order of his quotes, etc.
A simple examination of his responses to any deviation from his view
of theology show that it is the same canned material, slightly
altered. I have read nearly every article Mr. Winter has posted to
UseNet, and it can be verified by looking at Google and comparing the
various postings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
111. What is "Cancel Watch"?
In an attempt to gain support for his refusal to abide by charters,
regional group rules, etc, Mr Winter created something he was pleased
to call "Cancel Watch", and has posted a FAQ on this to various
groups. Mr. Winter claims that Cancel Watch is protecting people from
being canceled by notifying them of a cancel issued against their
post. His goal seems to be to eliminate controls on cross-posting and
regional newsgroups. See http://www.prime.org/cwatch.htm for a copy of
the FAQ. The most important thing to note about this is that he
doesn't notify users when HE cancels articles!
He has stated that he has stopped issuing cancels. I suspect that he
discovered that that was a quick way to lose accounts!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
112. Who is Stephen Adams?
Stephen Adams is the moderator of a
soc.religion.christian.bible-study, and is a long time participant in
UseNet (since 1985).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
113.How to Protect Yourself From Harassment by Steve Winter
The information here was compiled by " pavanas" and is reproduced here
with his permission. Please direct any comments to him.
If you are threatened or harassed by Steve Winter by telephone or
snail mail (USPS):
If you feel you are being harassed by him, and you live in another
state, you can contact your local FBI office, ask to speak with an
Internet aware agent.
If you feel you are being harassed by him, you can contact your local
District Attorney.
If he uses the telephone, you can contact your phone company.
If he uses the US Mail you can contact your local Postmaster (USPS).
If you feel that you have been harassed or threatened under the aegis
of his church you can contact the IRS and ask to speak with an
Internet aware agent.
This is mainly applicable to residents of the United States although
he has been known to to pester people in Canada.
What to do if you receive a "Lawsuit" in the mail (USPS) from Steve
Winter.
If it's just a letter from him, you can ignore it. If he files a real
lawsuit, you will receive legal notice ("service") about it and should
contact legal counsel.
If you feel harassed by him, and it is not legal process, contact your
Postmaster and report him. You might also contact your local State's
or US Attorney if you have the desire
You can always turn it over to your attorney for action.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes
1. Verified in "ProPhone 1996" from Selectphone, and backed up by
"whois" information from the NIC. The ProPhone database lists his
name, address & phone number, and the SIC code (5734B - Computer Parts
sales) for his business. The listing is for "Steve and Nancy Winter" -
his wife's name can be verified by looking at his PRIME signup kit and
seeing her name listed as a moderator. I do NOT give his address or
phone number because I'm not interested in invading his privacy or
helping anyone else to do so.
2. Reported via email and netnews postings by several persons.
3. Reported via email and netnews postings by several persons. It has
been reported that he is once again on FIDO net. Apparently he has
twice been kicked off, but by threatening lawsuits forced his way back
in.
4. Reported by Netcom administrators in UseNet posts. Verified by his
lawsuit against Netcom, as posted on his own web page.
5. Verified by his lawsuit against Concentric, as posted on his own
web page.
6. Verified by his 'Formal Complaint Against AT&T', as posted on his
own web page.
7. Verified by his 'The Nando Lawsuit', as posted on his own web page.
8. Verified by his lawsuit threat and postings on his CancelWatch
page.
9. Reported via email and netnews postings by several persons.
10. Verified by his letters to former Sen. Jesse Helms and the NC
Attorney General's office, as displayed on his web page, and by
postings to UseNet from a member of GTE.NET's staff.
11. Verified by his letter to former Sen. Jesse Helms, as displayed on
his web page.
BEFORE IT'S OVER WEENIE WINTER, I'M GONNA HAVE YOUR ON YOUR KNEES
BEGGING FOR MY MERCY!
BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAWWWW!
...Pastor sTeve Winter
WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!! WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!! WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!
WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A WEEENIE!!!WINTER IS A
WEEENIE!!!
Mark and Bev Tindall
Please answer my sincere questions:
i. Is that "true Christian scum" in your "Baptismal Dismal Bathtub"????
i. Are you a secret member of "Landover Baptist Church" (Unbelievers not
welcome!) http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ ????
it. What do you hide in your basement besides a sanctuary for the endangered
species of rabid pente ratbags????
iv. What was this week's "Fruitcake Sermoan" at your basement church ????
vot. What is that scraggle of grey lint hanging from your chin????
oi. Are your suspenders holding up your pants or beer gut????
oi oi. Can you interprtet these tongues for me? ......."Nihil curo de ista
tua stulta superstitione."
oh oh. Can I have one of your Trew Kristyun Scum Awards again???? Please,
please, please???? They are world infamous and collectors' items!!!!
vot de. Are you really insane?????
The Vampire
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_t...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f35...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Dear little Stevie Winter
>
> Please answer my sincere questions:
>
> i. Is that "true Christian scum" in your "Baptismal Dismal Bathtub"????
>
> i. Are you a secret member of "Landover Baptist Church" (Unbelievers not
> welcome!) http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ ????
>
Which picture is Sister Taffy all growed up?
--
The Vampire
"Little sister,
You left me howling at the moon... "
-Siouxsie & the Banshees
********************************************************
www.sleeping-garden.com
********************************************************
DN2799804
LOVE IT !!!!
>"Mark and Bev Tindall" m_b_t...@tpg.com.au
>Dear little Stevie Winter
Rod
More likely than not, a member of Landover and Westboro Baptist
Churches. Fred Phelps would really hit it off with winter !
Rod