Cardinal Stepinac - Documentation Part One
T254
Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
of time. I asked for documentation regarding what actually went on and both
the Roman Catholic Church and Cardinal Stepinac's involvement in it.
Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
his behalf. Because it is long (comes in two parts) I had to copy and paste
only the sections which there is documented proof. However, I would be very
glad to forward Bill's entire post to anyone interested. Due to the length
this may have to be posted in two or more parts.
Bob Tallick
(Wjo's grandfather was a Croat)
======================================================
Reprinting Stepanic's pathetic testimony before the trial chamber that found
him guilty of war crimes is indeed a ruse, especially since he was not found
guilty by Serbs, Jews or Gypsies whom priests under his jurisdiction
murdered with their own hands. Pretending he knew nothing about the
hundreds of thousands of Serbs being put to death was pure show biz.
Stepinac was tried by the allies who had more than hearsay and
circumstantial evidence against this monastic moron. I will not dwell on
the aspects of this hideous whitewash but I will quote the many people who
spoke out against the Archbishop including many of his Roman Catholic
followers.
Let's start with another ex-Catholic by the name of Avro Manhattan who wrote
numerous books about the Vatican and the Nazi church of Croatia in WWII.
The lessons we have learned from the emergence of the Independent State of
Croatia, where the religious and political totalitarianism of Catholicism
was not only made to work, but put to death more than 1.5 million Serbian
Orthodox Christians, should never be forgotten. For it happened in our
times, when the Catholic Church-then, as now, posing as a victim of
religious intolerance-was clamoring for freedom, while at the same time
suppressing that same freedom for which she was vociferating so loudly, in a
tiny state where she had set up her kind of freedom, Catholic freedom,:
i.e., freedom for herself to eliminate whatever and whoever dared to resist
her embrace. Vatican Imperialism in The Twentieth Century, Avro Manhattan,
1965.
At the end of the Holocaust 1,070 Roman Catholic priests under Archbishop
Stepanic, fled to Argentina with false passports created by Croatian priest
Draganovic who ran the infamous Vatican Ratline. In November, 2000, I was
one of the first 3 Serbs in California to file a class action suit against
the Vatican Bank for the tens of millions of dollars stolen from my Serbian
relatives in Croatia and laundered through the Vatican Bank to Swiss banks
and from Swiss banks to Argentine banks. The archives of this hideous
period of history when Roman Catholic priests by the hundreds murdered
innocent women and children with their own hands is summed up in a speech I
gave at Kingsborough College in New York in October, 1997. Most of the
following information is from that speech and from the 60 pages printed book
I donated to the college entitled: Jasenovac Then and Now: A Conspiracy of
Silence.
I began by describing Jasenovac as the Auschwitz of the Balkans in which
over 500,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were liquidated. I did not rely on
Serb archives for my presentation. I concentrated on non-Serb testimony,
especially those of Croat diplomats, politicians and authors, some of whom
were victimized by the Nazis for daring to speak out. I began by quoting
Antun Miletich, a Croatian survivor of Jasenovac who wrote a book in 1986
entitled Concentration Camp Jasenovac, 1941-1945, (p. 7). This is how he
described this liquidation center. "There is not a pen capable of describing
the horror and terror of the atmosphere at Jasenovac. It surpasses any
human fantasy. Imagine Hell, the Inquisition, a terror more dreadful than
any that ever before existed anywhere, run by bloodthirsty wild animals
whose most hidden and disgusting instincts had come to the surface in a way
never before seen in human beings—and still you have not said enough."
"Catholic clergymen not only did not take a stand for which the situation
called, but were, in fact, often the leaders of Pavelic's bandits of bloody
orgies. For a long time the politics of Pavelic's government and the
Catholic Church were identical, which greatly influenced the then
present-day Catholic bishopric with Stepinac at its head ... innocent people
are being slaughtered ... Even their clergy is involved, and they do not
raise a voice of protest. [Berislav Andelinovic, Croatian politician,
December 23, 1941.]
The following letter is by Dr. Prvislav Grizogono A Roman Catholic Croat
and former Yugoslav minister forced to escape as a refugee to Serbia
Winter of 1942 - A letter to Archbishop Stepinac
I am writing to you as a man to a man, as a Christian to a Christian. I
have been meaning to do this for months, hoping that the dreadful news from
Croatia would cease so that I could collect my thoughts and write to you in
peace. For the last ten months, Serbs have been killed and destroyed in
Croatia in the most ruthless manner and their property is being destroyed.
The blushes of shame and anger cover the face of every honest Croat. The
slaughter of Serbs began from the very first day of the establishment of the
Independent State of Croatia (Gospic, Gudovac, Bosanska Krajina, etc.) and
has continued relentlessly to this very day.
The horror is not only in the killing. The killing includes everybody: old
men, women, and children with accompanying barbaric torture. These innocent
Serbs have been impaled; fires have been lit on their bare chests, they have
been roasted alive, burned in their homes and churches while still living,
covered with boiling water and their skin peeled off and salt poured in
their wounds... Their eyes have been pulled out, their ears, noses, and
tongues cut off... The priests have had their beards and mustaches raised
together with their scalps, their sex organs severed and put into their
mouths... They have been tied to trucks then dragged across the ground...
Nails have been pressed into their hands and their heads nailed to the
floor... They have been thrown alive into wells and abyss's and grenades
have been thrown into them... Children have been thrown into flames, into
boiling water, into lime kilns... Their legs have been torn from them, their
heads have been smashed against walls, their backs have been broken against
rocks and tree stumps... And, so many other horrible tortures have been
perpetrated, such as normal people can hardly imagine...
The rivers Sava, Drava, the Danube and their tributaries have carried
thousands and thousands of the corpses. Dead bodies have been found with
the inscription: 'direction Belgrade' traveling to King Peter. In a boat
which was found on the Sava River there was a heap of children's heads with
the head of a woman (who could have been a head of one of the mothers of the
children) with the inscription: 'Meat for the Jovanova Market in Belgrade.'
Horrifying is the case of Mileva Bozinic from Stabandza, whose child was
removed from her womb. There was also the case of the roasted heads in
Bosnia, the vessels full of Serbian blood, the case of Serbs being forced to
drink the warm blood of their slaughtered kin. Countless women, girls and
children, mothers in front of their children and children in front of their
mothers, were raped or else sent off to Ustashi camps to serve the Ustashi.
Rapes even took place on the altars of Orthodox churches. In the Petrinja
country a son was forced to rape his own mother. The slaughter of the Serbs
in the Glina Orthodox church and the murder of Serbs on the altar of the
Kladusa church is without precedent in history. There are detailed and
original accounts of all these horrors. Even the Germans and the Italians
were astounded by these crimes. They photographed a huge number of cases of
such slaughter. The Germans are saying that the Croatians did this also
during the 30-Years War, and that is why there has been a saying in German
since then "God save us from the plague, hunger and the Croats." The Srem
Germans despise us because of this and behave in a more human fashion with
the Serbs. The Italians photographed a vessel with 3.5 kilograms of Serbian
eyes, as well as a Croat who wore a necklace strung with Serbian eyes and
another one who came to Dubrovnik with a belt on which cut Serbian tongues
were hanging.
The horrors of the camps in which the thousands of Serbs were killed, or
were left to die from exposure, hunger and cold weather, are too terrible to
mention. The Germans have been talking about a camp in Lika where there
were thousands of Serbs; but when the Germans got there they found the camp
empty, drenched in blood and bloody clothing. In that camp it has been said
a Serbian bishop also lost his life. Thousands upon thousands of Serbs in
the camp of Jasenovac are still being tortured as they are spending this
fierce winter in wooden Gypsy shacks with no straw or covering and with a
ration of two potatoes per day. In the history of Europe there have been no
similar cases. One would have to go to Asia at the time of Tamerlane or
Genghis-Khan or to Africa, to the countries of their bloodthirsty rulers, to
come upon similar situations. These events have shamed the name of Croatia
for centuries to come. Nothing can absolve us fully from this ever again.
We will not be able to tell even the last wretched man in the Balkans about
our thousand year old Croatian culture, because even the Gypsies never
perpetrated such cruelties.
Why am I writing this to you when you are not a political personage and can
no bear responsibility for all this? Here is why: In all these
unprecedented barbarian crimes which are more than Godless, our Catholic
Church participated in two ways. A large number of clergy, priests, friars,
and organized Catholic youth took active part in all this. It has also
happened that Catholic priests became camp guards and Ustashi accomplices
and so approved of the torture and slaughter of Christians. A Catholic
priest even personally slaughtered an Orthodox clergyman. They could not
have done all this without the permission of their bishops, and, if they
did, then they would have to lose their jobs and be taken to court. As this
did not happen, it means that their bishops granted them permission.
Secondly, the Catholic Church made use of all this to convert the surviving
Serbs. And while the soil was steaming from the innocent victims blood,
while groans shuttered the chests of the surviving victims, the priests,
friars, and nuns carried in one hand the Ustashi daggers and in the other
their prayer books and rosaries. The whole of Srem is inundated with the
leaflets written by Bishop Aksamovic and printed in his printing shop in
Djakovo, calling upon the Serbs to save their lives and property by
converting to Catholicism. It was as if our Church wanted to show that it
could destroy souls just as the Ustashi authorities destroy bodies. It is
an even greater blot on the Catholic Church, as at the same time many
Orthodox churches and all the Orthodox monasteries have been confiscated,
their property plundered as well as many historical treasures. Even the
Patriarchate church in Sremski Karlovici has not been spared. All this
violence against conscience and the spirit has brought even greater disgrace
to the Croat nation and name.
Prvilsav Grizogono
February 8, 1942.
A GERMAN SPEAKS OUT AGAINST ARCHBISHOP STEPINAC
“That character was first a volunteer in the Austrian army, then he deserted
and, as a Serbian officer, was engaged in action on the Salonika Front,
where he fought against his former homeland to which he had vowed loyalty.
Later on, he became a priest. At the conclusion of the Concordat with the
Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Stepinac, 32 at the time, was appointed the Zagreb
metropolitan (as compensation). This was one of the tricks the Vatican
opportunistically allowed itself from time to time.”—Edmund Gleise von
Horstenau German Plenipotentiary General in Zagreb April 17, 1941.
___________________________________
On November 15, 1945, after inspecting the site of the Jasenovac Death Camp,
with the evidence still very fresh, only 87 surviving victims were available
to provide eye witness testimony, a Croatian Commission concluded the
following:
“... The exact number of victims swallowed by the camp of Jasenovac will
never be
established, because of the stated reasons, but that on the basis of
investigation led by
the Commission, it can be concluded that the number of around 500,000 to
600,000
conforms to reality.”
“Crimes in the Jasenovac Camp,”
The Croatian Commission,
November 15, 1945.
TESTIMONY
“The Croats had built this crematorium by converting a brick factory. It
had a deep pit at the
bottom of which wood and coal was arranged in order to heat the pit to a
very high temperature. This ‘stove’ was enclosed and had a heavy steel door
at the end of the tunnel that led to the burning area. The Croats created
this crematorium to make it possible to destroy inmates as easily as
possible and in large numbers. But when they brought the first group of
Jewish women and children to murder them in this crematorium, they brought
them through the tunnel first and after opening the door, they tried to
push the victims into the human oven. It didn’t work the way they wanted it
to, because the women fought desperately and the children screamed. After,
that, the Croats decided to use mallets and steel rods to hit each of the
victims on the back of their heads, rendering them unconscious before
shoving them into the fire. The crematorium worked for several months but
was closed then, because the stench of burned human flesh was carried miles
and miles from the camp and the Croat civilians and Germans living in the
area began complaining. From the area of Kozara in Northern Bosnia, the
Croats took 23,858 Serbian boys and girls up to 14 years of age and sent
them to the concentration camp Jasenovac in the spring of 1942. Of these
children, the Croats executed 6,348 boys and 6,854 girls. Many were killed
on the way to Jasenovac and left at the side of the road. The rest were sent
to Zagreb for adoption by Croat families. Those who were not adopted were
poisoned to death.”
Mladen Ivekovich
Former Jasenovac inmate
TESTIMONY
“It was known to me that the Ustashe were doing various criminal acts,
burning many villages in Banija and it was known to me that they were
killing and their allies were Domobrans (regular Croatian Armed Forces). I
remember that on February 23, 1945, in the villages in Banija, 400 Domobrans
burned many houses and killed many people. I did not raise my voice against
these crimes, because others didn’t either, not even Cardinal Stepinac...”
Josip Vukelic,
Croatian Catholic Priest and
Military Chaplain for the areas
of Bjelovar, Varazdin, Gradiska,
Knin, Ogulin, Gospic and Karlovac.
TESTIMONY
“For centuries the Serbian people have stood in the Balkans as the bulwark
of Christian civilization against invaders and oppressors. As a
consequences of their stand, great losses have been inflicted on them in the
course of centuries... Genocide in its worst and most destructive form,
however, was inflicted upon the Serbs in 1941-45 by the members of the
Croatian Fascist movement, the Ustasha... The massacres carried out in the
Serbian Orthodox Church in Glina between May and August, 1941, belong
undoubtedly, to the darkest chapters of human depravity in modern times.”
Senator Herbert H. Lehman, New York
U.S. Senate, October 20, 1951.
TESTIMONY
“I am a true Croat by origin. I have never missed an opportunity to speak
highly of, cherish, and help the Croatian race. How do I express what I
feel about what happened in the ‘Forest of Katin’ in Croatia. We tortured
and most brutally slaughtered over a million Orthodox people. We made
hundreds of thousands of people homeless and left them to wander the
forests. We degraded them to something less than animal. We are all aware
of this, but we refuse to face the truth, though it’s wiser to admit one’s
sins than to hide them ... We have to bear in mind that our own survival is
jeopardized if the bloody feud with the Serbs persists. We have to bear in
mind that the Germans, Italians, and Hungarians will eventually leave, and
we will have to continue living with the Serbs on this territory. What kind
of a horrid life will we have to bear if we don’t attempt to pave the way
for a reconciliation? ... I have said all this in order to ease my
conscience and die in peace...”
Josip Mravunac,
Croatian Lawyer,
Karlovac, Croatia, 1943.
robert G Tallick
Leonidas
>Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
>successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
>his behalf.
Bob, why don't you tell Bill to open a FREE account with
http://www.newsranger.com/create.html or groups.google.com ? They're not at all
bad services and they let one work around the problem of one's ISP not carrying
a particular newsgroup. It might be enlightening to have him visit the group.
Regards,
Leonidas
Gerard Serafin
> Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
> posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
> of time. I asked for documentation regarding what actually went on and both
> the Roman Catholic Church and Cardinal Stepinac's involvement in it.
> Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
> successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
> his behalf. Because it is long (comes in two parts) I had to copy and paste
> only the sections which there is documented proof. However, I would be very
> glad to forward Bill's entire post to anyone interested. Due to the length
> this may have to be posted in two or more parts.
>
> Bob Tallick
> (Wjo's grandfather was a Croat)
>
> ======================================================
>
> Reprinting Stepanic's pathetic testimony before the trial chamber that found
> him guilty of war crimes is indeed a ruse, especially since he was not found
> guilty by Serbs, Jews or Gypsies whom priests under his jurisdiction
> murdered with their own hands.... etc etc etc etc etc
William Dorich, a first-generation Serb, seems a bit prejudiced,
wouldn't you agree?
He provides not a stitch of evidence tying Cardinal Stepinac to crimes
and murders, etc.
But I am sure, Robert, your quest for actual documentation will
continue... You are, if nothing else, rather relentless.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
"..pray for us sinners,*now* and at *the hour of our death.*"
Nicholas Trahan
minions may I suggest "The Vatican's Holocaust" by Avro Manhattan. This book
was pubished in 1986 by Ozark books. For those interested in purchasing
copies please see www.sarovpress.com
Nicholas Trahan
--
It is possible to find a word that between two views will signify both. But
a middle view between two opposite views concerning the same thing is
impossible....There is NO ROOM for COMPROMISE in matters of the Orthodox
Faith.
--St. Mark of Ephesus.
JCarew
"Nicholas Trahan" <ntr...@sarovpress.com> wrote
>For a detailed account of the crimes committed by
>Cardinal Stepinac and his minions may I suggest "The
>Vatican's Holocaust" by Avro Manhattan. This book
>was pubished in 1986 by Ozark books.
"published in 1986 by Ozark Books" Ozark books
that tells it all!
LOL
Jim Carew sfo
++
T254 wrote:
> Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
> posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
> of time. I asked for documentation regarding what actually went on and both
> the Roman Catholic Church and Cardinal Stepinac's involvement in it.
> Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
> successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
> his behalf. Because it is long (comes in two parts) I had to copy and paste
> only the sections which there is documented proof. However, I would be very
> glad to forward Bill's entire post to anyone interested. Due to the length
> this may have to be posted in two or more parts.
>
> Bob Tallick
> (Wjo's grandfather was a Croat)
Bill is no stranger to newsgroups. He knows how to access them. But, aside form
that, thank you for sending this along, Bob.
Finally we ge4t to the crux of the situation. It is, like i said, a matter of
silent complicity. The degree of complicity would depend on the degree of
knowledge and that would determine the degree of guilt upon which we could argue
the inappropriateness of him being made a saint. And this is the proof of at least
second hand knowledge that Cardinal Stepinac received upon which he hsould have
acted
> of a horrid life will we have to bear if we dont attempt to pave the way
++
Leonidas wrote:
Leonidas,
Bill has been posting heavily on the Usenet since 1993. He fully knows how to do it
when he feels like it.
Galina
T254
>form
>that, thank you for sending this along, Bob.
Apparently he can't access this one. From his initial email to me -
[This is quite extensive and a reply will take quite a bit of time. I tested
the web site address you provided and it would not let me access the site.
I would have been quite angry as using my valuable time to discover this had
I spent the necessary time only to discover the lack of access. If I can
get some time over the weekend I will try to respond but I will send it to your
email and let you deal with getting it on that site.]
And you are quite welcome Galina.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Marina
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_185000/185761.stm
Stepinac: Hero or collaborator?
Catholic World News:
http://www.cwnews.com/browse/1998/09/8514.htm
Nazi Hunters Ask Pope To Delay Croatian Beatification
T254
to access the newsgroup. Bill would like to become part of this discussion
directly if he can access the site. If someone would please email this PC
illerate (ME) on how he can access and participate I will gladly forward them
to Bill and quietly back off being the middle man.
Bob T2...@aol.com
=========================================
Everything stated in my response can be found in numerous published books,
especially the four-volume dissertation on the Ustashi Crimes of Genocide by
Dr. Milan Bulajic. Dr. Bulajic is a member of the Academy of Arts and
Sciences, Belgrade, the World Organization for Peace and the United Nations.
He is a historian and eminent authority on international law and a member
of ILA (International Law Association), and IAIPPI (World Peace by Way of
Law and Justice). He heads the Serbian Holocaust Museum in Belgrade. He is
also the author of The Principles of International Law and Development. A
Great deal of his research on the priests I have listed in my response can
be obtained from WWII archives in Dr. Bulajic's research with complete
footnotes, compiled from Serbian, Croatian, Vatican, British and American
war archives to which he was given access for his research on his 4-volume
dissertation. At the extradition of the real Butcher of the Balkans, Andrija
Artukovic.
Artukovic was the Minister of the Interior of the First Independent Nazi
State of Croatia where his signature appeared on countless thousands of
documents that put hundreds of thousands of Serbians to death. Artukovich
entered the United States through the effort of Dorothy Chandler who owned
the Los Angeles Times and through the effort of Roman Catholic circles in
Los Angeles. He entered the U.S. illegally dressed as a Roman priest under
the name of Alois Anic. He remained an illegal alien in Seal Beach,
California for over 3 decades, until he was extradited to Zagreb in 1986 to
stand trial. At his extratition hearing in Los Angeles, in Cardinal
Manning's testimony he called Artukovich, "A Great Good Man," that 'Great
Good Man' butchered hundreds of thousand of women and children. At his
trial, Dr. Bulajic represented Yugoslavia. Also at his trial Dr. Bulajic
was considered expert testimony on genocide.
It is not up to me to provide pages of footnotes tof my response, but every
fact I have stated can be backed by volumes of research readily available if
this ex-Roman priest can read.
Not mentioned in my bio is the fact that my first book, Serbian Genocide
1941-45 published on the 50th anniversary of WWII was co-authored by the
late David Martin and the late Michael Lees. In addition to The Web of
Disinformation: Churchill's Blunder, David Martin was considered by his
colleagues as the world's formost scholar on the subject of WWII and the
Genocide, his excellent and often quoted research on the infamous Cambridge
spy set that included Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, Donald Maclean and Anthony
Blunt, David Martin names as the "fifth man" in this conspiracy as James
Klugmann, by all accounts the most brilliant and enterprising mole of them
all.
David Martin was also the author of Draza Mihailovic: Ally Betrayed and the
book Patriot or Traitor: The Case of General Mihailovic.
Michael Lees was one of the British liaison officers dropped by the special
forces into Axis-occupied Yugoslavia in 1943. From his unique position
inside the war-torn country, and the year he spent with the resistance
fighters of General Mihailovic, Michael Lees witnessed an inexplicable
change in the character of Allied support promised to Mihailovic of vital
arms and supplies that was not kept; scheduled sabotage actions were
abruptly canceled by the Special Operations Executive (SOE), Cairo;
eventually Mihailovic himself was completely abandoned. After saving the
lives of 513 downed American airmen over occupied Yugoslav territory, in
1942 Congress bestowed this nation's highest award, the Legion of Merit on
Mihailovich. That act of Congress was kept secret by the State Department
for over 20 years. Little wonder we now find out that Fr. Draganovic, a
Croat Roman priest who ran the Vatican Ratline was paid by the CIA.
The full explanation for this betrayal of Mihailovic lay hidden until
mid-1980s when Lees was led to a cache of secret service files mistakenly
declassified. These files, examined in light of his own wartime experience,
enabled him to complete his book, The Rape of Serbian, a Tale of Perfidy,
prior to his death.
In a tribute to his effort and several years after his death, when I was in
London on Vidvodan, June 28th 1997, the Serb's most sacred holiday that
commemorates the Battle of Kosovo in 1398, the British government release
another cache of secret documents, this time, deliberately. These documents
provided substantial proof that General Mihailovic was duped by Tito and
Stalin and that his so-called collaboration with the Nazis was a fabrication
by these hideous leaders. Perhaps the ex-Roman priests might research those
newspaper articles in the Times and Independent in which the Serbs finally
had the truth about WWII told by British press. That is if this phoney can
stand the truth.
Bill Dorich
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
news:20011124191047...@mb-ba.aol.com..
.
> It is not up to me to provide pages of footnotes
tof my response, but every
> fact I have stated can be backed by volumes of
research readily available if
> this ex-Roman priest can read.
Nice, Bill. Real nice.
> ...Perhaps the ex-Roman priests might research
those
> newspaper articles in the Times and Independent
in which the Serbs finally
> had the truth about WWII told by British press.
That is if this phoney can
> stand the truth.
> Bill Dorich
> robert G Tallick
Nice, Bill. Real nice.
Nice, Robert. Real nice.
What a gang!!!!!! :-)
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
Steve Hayes
>T254 wrote:
>
>> Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
>> posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
>> of time. I asked for documentation regarding what actually went on and both
>> the Roman Catholic Church and Cardinal Stepinac's involvement in it.
>> Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
>> successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
>> his behalf. Because it is long (comes in two parts) I had to copy and paste
>> only the sections which there is documented proof. However, I would be very
>> glad to forward Bill's entire post to anyone interested. Due to the length
>> this may have to be posted in two or more parts.
>>
>> Bob Tallick
>> (Wjo's grandfather was a Croat)
>>
>> ======================================================
>>
>> Reprinting Stepanic's pathetic testimony before the trial chamber that found
>> him guilty of war crimes is indeed a ruse, especially since he was not found
>> guilty by Serbs, Jews or Gypsies whom priests under his jurisdiction
>> murdered with their own hands.... etc etc etc etc etc
>
>William Dorich, a first-generation Serb, seems a bit prejudiced,
>wouldn't you agree?
First-generation Serb?
You mean his parents weren't Serbs?
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Steve Hayes
>T254 wrote:
>
>> Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
>> posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
>> of time. I asked for documentation regarding what actually went on and both
>> the Roman Catholic Church and Cardinal Stepinac's involvement in it.
>> Bill tried to access the newsgroup to answer Gerard's post but was not
>> successful in accesing it. So he forwarded it to me and asked me to post it on
>> his behalf. Because it is long (comes in two parts) I had to copy and paste
>> only the sections which there is documented proof. However, I would be very
>> glad to forward Bill's entire post to anyone interested. Due to the length
>> this may have to be posted in two or more parts.
>>
>> Bob Tallick
>> (Wjo's grandfather was a Croat)
>>
>> ======================================================
>>
>> Reprinting Stepanic's pathetic testimony before the trial chamber that found
>> him guilty of war crimes is indeed a ruse, especially since he was not found
>> guilty by Serbs, Jews or Gypsies whom priests under his jurisdiction
>> murdered with their own hands.... etc etc etc etc etc
>
>William Dorich, a first-generation Serb, seems a bit prejudiced,
>wouldn't you agree?
First-generation Serb?
Jack Lane
> T254 wrote:
>
> > Regarding the discussion on the beatification of Cardinal Stepinac, I sent the
> > posts to William Dorich who has spent his entire life researching that period
Bill Doric is also not afraid to stand up for his beliefs , he is a
plaintiff suing the Vatican Bank, Franciscans, and Croatian Liberation
Movement for atrocities committed then and now.
T254
The following true events should make you sick to your stomach.
In my possession, and now in the hands of our attorney in the Vatican Bank
suit, is a photograph taken in 1943 of a mass conversion of Serbs by
Franciscan priests in Glina, within the Roman Catholic Diocese of Zagreb.Ę
Next to those criminal Catholic priests and clearly recognizable is a 9 year
old George Zivkovich of San Bernardino Country, California and his mother.Ę
They were released from Jasenovac Concentration Camp shorty before the
photograph was taken. George Zivkovich is one of the other two men here in
California that filed the original suit against the Vatican Bank with me.Ę
We now have hundreds who have joined in this class action suit.Ę The Vatican
has twice tried to throw this case out of court and twice the presiding
judge has allowed the case to go forward.
For those reading this information for the first time may I remind you that
from 1941-1945 Roman Catholic priests under the direction of Stepinac
converted more than 700,000 Serbian Orthodox Christians to Roman
Catholicism.Ę Many were promised to be spared but were
killed anyway.Ę It was a way of capturing them without having to hunt Serbs
down, much like the late Franjo Tudjman of Croatia made Serbs sign a loyalty
oath to the newly recognized state, then fired those who sige a loyalty oath
from their jobs.
Most archives from the WWII period reveal that about 230,000 of this 700,000
Serbs were spared, but look at the record it speaks for itself, over 500,000
Serb victims, none of whom died in any Croatian Concentration Camp were
simply tracked down and
slaughtered by fanatic priests and their followers.
Last year the pope apologized to the Jews for the way the Catholic church
treated them in this past century.Ę But that apology did not include any
mention of the Serbs in the Balkans where Catholics and their criminal
priests destroyed over 400 Serbian Orthodox churches, killed 740 Serbian
priests and liquidated over one million Serbian victims.Ę What a
horrific lack of morality and conscience.
On August 21, 1941 in what is described by many historians about the
Holocaust is documentation about the Bloody Baptismal Bath in a Serbian
Orthodox church in Glina where 1,030 Serbians gathered for what they
believed to be their forced conversion to Roman CatholicismŃtheir only
escape from the persecution by their Croatian neighbors.Ę After a local
Catholic priest, Fr. Franjo Zuzek, baptized a Serbian child in the group and
the group was photographed (I have a copy of that photograph which I
published in the papers presented at Kingsborough College) the chief of the
Zagreb police, Bozidar Corouski, came into the church and proclaimed to the
newly converted Serbians: "Now that you are all Roman Catholics, I guarantee
you that I can save your souls, but I cannot save your bodies."
The Ustashe entered the church, the door were locked from outside and the
blood bath began.Ę Fr. Franjo Zuzek held the child he had just baptized
while an Ustasha thug decapitated the baby to the shocked horror of those in
the church.Ę The Ustashe began their slaughter of 1,029 Serb victims.
In the chaos of knife wielding goons,Ę one of those Serbs, Ljuban Jednak
fell to the floor and pretended to be dead.Ę He nearly suffocated under the
weight of dead bodies piled over his in the truck that took them to their
mass grave.Ę When the Ustashe left the burial site to retrieve more dead
bodies from the Serbian church Ljuban Jednak escaped.Ę This was his
testimony in 1948 given to allied forces in the Balkans who had liberated
Jasenovac and other concentration camps and is in numerous archives
regarding the Holocaust in Yugoslavia:
"When there is absolutely no escape, when your friends and relatives are
being slaughtered right before your eyes, when you see a special squad who
we called the 'skull crushers'Ń it is a nightmare!Ę You hear your friends'
voices, you relive the scene over and over again.Ę The butchers are drenched
in human blood. It's almost your turn. But I am alive. How did I manage to
escape?"
In September 1991 the home of Ljuban Jednak was riddled with bullets by the
HVO Croatian nationalists ( a politically correct name for Nazis)Ńbelieving
that Mr. Jednak was insideŃhe had been warned that his name was on a list of
those to be exterminated and he fled the night before his home was
attacked.Ę This was an obvious second attempt to kill this valuable witness
to the genocide against the Serbian people committed in 1941 by those who
now seek 'freedom' and democracy' in Croatia.
Ljuban Jednak is the recipient of the Order of St. Sava, the highest award
bestowed on a lay person by the Holy Synod of Serbian Orthodox Bishops.Ę I
am also a proud recipient of that great honor. Mr. Jednak was one of the few
survivors of the Holocaust in Croatia and testified at the trial of Andrija
Artukovic in Zagreb in 1986.Ę His testimony about the Glina church were also
part of the trial records. Mr. Jednak died of natural causes in 1997.
Gerard has accused me of being a "first generation Serb" whatever that
meansŃ a kind of slur that being the first offsprint of Serbian immigrants
somehow taints the real history of the genocide my family has suffered in
this century. In 1897 my grandparents were "ethnically cleansed" from
Kosovo by Albanian goons, they resettled in the Krajina region which is now
Croatia, in the village of Vojnic where my father was born.Ę Before he
reached his 12 birthday the family was once again "ethnically
cleansed," this time by Croats who sided with the Germans in WWI.Ę My father
and my grandparents came to the United States as Displaced Persons.Ę During
the Holocaust in Croatia, 17 of my relatives were burned to death in the
Serbian church in Vojnic.Ę In 1972 when I visited Vojnic I photographed the
remains of that church including a plaque on the stone facade which told
about the 47 people burned to death by Nazis during the war. In 1991 the
HVO Croat troops blew up the remains of that church and bulldozed the site,
much like they did to the Jasenovac Memorial Museum and Concentration camp
site. President Tudjman said at the time they were going to "turn the site
into a bird sanctuary." Jews and Serbs around the world were horrified that
the evidence at Jasenovac was destroyed.
During the current war in Croatia the last 5 remaining relatives to
my name were too old and too sick to flee Operation Storm in August, 1995,
they were found several months later with their throats slit.Ę Gerard will
tell, as did our political leaders and the talking heads in the media that
these are "ancient hatreds,"Ę but as a two-time victim of genocide in my
lifetime I am here to tell you that the Nazi movement and the Islamic
movement in the Balkans and the world is alive
and well.Ę
Z Karadjordjevic
This is easy. NAZI butcher. Anyone or any institution that beatifies him is a
collaborator. He is one of hell's anti-saints.
Someone should ask Prague to unseal the SS documents seized, stored, and
apparently, forgotten in time under Soviets on the evil creep's firsthand
knowledge and direct involvement as leader.
T254
saving 3 or 4 dozen Jews. However, at the end of WWII there were 28,000 Jews
who survived the Holocaust in Yugoslavia, the vast majority of those Jews
were saved by Serbs who hid them in their barns, basements and attics. Jews
served with Chetnik forces of General Draza Mihailovich, few, if any served
with the Nazis.
Serbs risked their lives to save these 28,000 Jews. They did not do this
for some future recognition but because they had great humanity. How
compelling, too, that there are Jews who join me in the class action case
against the Vatican Bank. So Gerard can't have it both ways, the Jewish
community is outraged that the Vatican is turning Stepinac, a common Nazi
war criminal and convict into a roman saint.
We have also filed suit against the Franciscan order in San Francisco whose
members slaughter Serbs during the Holocaust. The most vicious of them all
was Franciscan friar, Miroslav Majstorovic Filipovic. He was the commandant
of Jasenovac for a period of only 4 months. At his trial Fr. Filipovic
admitted to killing 40,000 Serbian inmates at Jasenovac, all 40,000 were
children whom he sexually mutilated before putting them to death.
A relative of Fr. Filipovic who teaches at Duquesne University in
Pittsburgh, a Croatian Catholic institution, came to my defense on the New
York Times Bosnia Forum in 1993 when I was being challenged about my facts
regarding Fr. Filipovic. He said indeed what I wrote about this moronic
priest was true and he admitted on that forum that he was a relative of this
demented Catholic priest.
I remind Gerard that the first Serbian Orthodox church was dedicated in
Jackson, California in 1896. That first Serbian church in the United States
is used to this very day. Since that time, some 107 years, not one single
time has an American read in their daily newspapers that a Serbian priest
molested a child. NOT ONCE.
Contrast this to the wicked behavior of Croatian priest Petar Brzica a
Catholic cleric from the monastery of Siroki Brijeg, a member of the Great
Brotherhood of Crusaders. This notorious butcher joined other clergy on the
night of August 29, 1942 during a contest held at the Jasenovac
Concentration camp to see which priest could kill the most Serbs in one
night. Fr. Brzica won that contest and the title, "King of the Killers," by
cutting the throats of 1,350 Serbs with his own hands.
Then we have the Medjugorje "Miracle" Scam being perpetrated by Croatian
Roman priests. Perhaps we need to remind Gerard about the history of
Medjugorje? This was a Serb dominated village before WWII. They were
totally exterminated. Croatian Ustashi and their local priests loaded the
women and children of the village into boxcars and when the train reached
the mountain top the Serb victims were thrown alive off its summit.
Medjugorje where Serbian Orthodox priests were publicly tortured, castrated
and buried alive.
Medjugorje where thousands of Serbs along with three of their priests, Fr.
Dusan Blagoja, Fr. Ilarian and Fr. Sarenac were thrown alive into pits
followed by handgrenades. For my entire life Croats have denied these
crimes, always insisting that "only a few dozen Serbs were ever thrown into
pits in Croatia." Then, in 1989 the University of Belgrade sent a research
team to uncover 7 pits in Croatia which Tito cemented over and forbit any
person from going to these sites and lighting candles. The University team
which included pathologists, medical doctors and forensic experts were
lowered into these pits including the Jagodnjac pit in Medjugorje where they
brought up over 5,000 skulls. In the total of 7 pits over 120,000 skulls
and human remains were brought out of those pits. The Serbian Orthodox
church and their priests led a march from those Croatian pits into Serb
territory where the remains of these victims were finally given a proper
burial. Shame on Gerard and the war
criminal mentality of his church and its leaders whom he now defends.
I am reminded of the broadcast about Medjugorje on ABC Nightline in 1991 in
which one of the local priest of Medjugorje told the television audience
that the Virgin Mary was the "Madonna of Financial Reward." Today in
Medjugorje where the hillsides once dotted with poor shanty structures is
now full of $200,000 homes all bought and paid for by selling key
chains, Nazi momentoes and pictures of the perpetrators of this outrageous
genocide for whom the Croats are now renaming schools, streets and
libraries. And let us not forget that the Roman Catholic Diocese in White
Plains, New York named their school Archbishop Stepinac High School in the
early 1950s they, too, have no shame about liquidating over a million
Serbians, 60,000 Jews and 70,000 Gypsies along with 743 Serbian Orthodox
priests and 3 Serbian bishops put to death during the Holocaust in Croatia
and Bosnia.
I also remind Gerard that in 1991, on the 50th anniversary of WWII, the
Serbian Patriarch Paul invited the Pope to join him at Jasenovac to serve a
joint Liturgy and Mass for all of the dead at Jasenovac. The Pope refused
saying, "It is too dangerous to come to the Balkans at this time." (You
can obtain the record of this invitation from the Serbian Orthodox
Patriarcate in Belgrade). Three years later at the height of the Bosnian
Civil War the Pope went to Croatia where his first official duty, as the
first Pope in history to set foot on Croatian soil, was to lay a wreath on
the tomb of Archbishop Stepinac.
Gerard Serafin
.
> To Gerard,
> The following true events should make you sick
to your stomach.
Whether true or not, exaggerated or not, they do
not at all implicate Blessed Cardinal Stepinac.
> Gerard has accused me of being a "first
generation Serb" whatever that
> meansÑ a kind of slur that being the first
offsprint of Serbian immigrants
> somehow taints the real history of the genocide
my family has suffered in
> this century.
I found that you were "a first generation Serb" on
a webpage that was written by you.
By the way, I think the Ustache a disgrace and
truly criminal. And that the Serbian people
suffered terribly under this diabolical
government.
Stepinac early on came to the same belief.
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
Gerard Serafin
.
> How compelling indeed that a few Croat priests
have been recognized for
> saving 3 or 4 dozen Jews. However, at the end
of WWII there were 28,000 Jews
> who survived the Holocaust in Yugoslavia, the
vast majority of those Jews
> were saved by Serbs who hid them in their barns,
basements and attics. Jews
> served with Chetnik forces of General Draza
Mihailovich, few, if any served
> with the Nazis.
> Serbs risked their lives to save these 28,000
Jews. etc etc etc.
Croats = devils
Serbs = saints
> I remind Gerard that the first Serbian Orthodox
church was dedicated in
> Jackson, California in 1896. That first Serbian
church in the United States
> is used to this very day. Since that time, some
107 years, not one single
> time has an American read in their daily
newspapers that a Serbian priest
> molested a child. NOT ONCE.
Ah, the true colors show more and more.
What hatred does to a soul and a mind....
> Shame on Gerard and the war
> criminal mentality of his church and its leaders
whom he now defends.
I believe the Catholic Church the greatest
promoter of human rights and genuine peace in the
world today.
She far outshines Orthodoxy on this front.
> I also remind Gerard that in 1991, on the 50th
anniversary of WWII, the
> Serbian Patriarch Paul invited the Pope to join
him at Jasenovac to serve a
> joint Liturgy and Mass for all of the dead at
Jasenovac.Ê The Pope refused
> saying, "It is too dangerous to come to the
Balkans at this time."ÊÊ (You
> can obtain the record of this invitation from
the Serbian Orthodox
> Patriarcate in Belgrade). Three years later at
the height of the Bosnian
> Civil War the Pope went to Croatia where his
first official duty, as the
> first Pope in history to set foot on Croatian
soil, was to lay a wreath on
> the tomb of Archbishop Stepinac.
Glad to hear another Patriarch invited the Pope!
Some progress... :-)
Dushevno
>church was dedicated in
>> Jackson, California in 1896. That first Serbian
>church in the United States
>> is used to this very day. Since that time, some
>107 years, not one single
>> time has an American read in their daily
>newspapers that a Serbian priest
>> molested a child. NOT ONCE.
>
Gerard Serafin
from Bill:
> I also remind Gerard that in 1991, on the 50th
anniversary of WWII, the
> Serbian Patriarch Paul invited the Pope to join
him at Jasenovac to serve a
> joint Liturgy and Mass for all of the dead at
Jasenovac. The Pope refused
> saying, "It is too dangerous to come to the
Balkans at this time." (You
> can obtain the record of this invitation from
the Serbian Orthodox
> Patriarcate in Belgrade). Three years later at
the height of the Bosnian
> Civil War the Pope went to Croatia where his
first official duty, as the
> first Pope in history to set foot on Croatian
soil, was to lay a wreath on
> the tomb of Archbishop Stepinac.
It may not be the easiest thing to get a copy of
such an invitation from the Serbian Orthodox
Patriarchate in Belgrade. Of course, something
doesn't "ring true" with it. The Serbian Orthodox
Church has not exactly been known for its
"ecumenism" and I doubt very much that Patriarch
Paul invited the Pope to a "Joint Liturgy or
Mass."
If this is (obviously) incorrect than why should
we trust anything else you say or post?
(If you can show me the Invitation and that it
says what you say it does I will humbly admit my
mistake).
William Doric
> plaintiff suing the Vatican Bank, Franciscans, and Croatian Liberation
> Movement for atrocities committed then and now.
>
> www.vaticanbankclaims.com
You are right I am not afraid to stand up for the truth and what is
right.
Thank you for posting the Vatican Bank law suit site, that was going
to be my first post on this discussion group as your newest member.
One thing we can say about Gerard, he had the good sense to remove the
frock of the Catholic priesthood but notice how he now mocks all of
the Christian tenants we once preached.
A member of my wife's family was an Archimandrite of the Serbian
Orthodox church in the U.S. one of the highest ranking Serbian priests
in America. He served the church and the Serbian people for over 60
years, he recently died. He built two churches in the Western
Diocese, one in San Francisco and one in Butte, Montana. From that
tiny church in Butte, three priests emerged, one is now a bishop in
the Greek Orthodox church.
Gerard shows none of the qualities of Fr. Obradovich, for being a
priest come from the depth of one's soul. Gerard would have us
believe that after he was excommunicated from the Roman church he fled
to the Orthodox church who I am confident accepted him with open arms,
no questions asked. How betrayed the Orthodox Christians must now
feel.
I would like to offer the readers of this discussion group my opening
remarks in a speech I gave at Kingsborough College in New York in
1997, at the First International Jasenovac Conference and Exhibition
on the subject of the Jasenovac Concentration Camp that was run in
Croatia at a time Stepinac was Cardinal of Zagreb, a camp only miles
from his office is never mentioned in any of the remarks made by
Stepinac at the time or during his infamous trial.
A camp in which most historians, including the Holocaust Memorial
Museum in Los Angeles, places the death toll at a half million
including Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and disloyal Croats. Jasenovac, in the
early 1941 was the experimental killing lab on which Auschwitz and
other death chambers were based. Gas was not considered at the time
because bludgeoning and disemboweling victims was considered an indoor
sport by Croatians whose lust including feeding over 100,000 Serbian
children toxic soda to save bullets. That soda was administered by
Roman Catholic nuns who ran the Sisak and Stara Gradiska Camps within
the Zagreb Diocese, notorious for murdering Serbian children.
In my first book, Serbian Genocide 1941-46 published on the 50th
anniversary of WWII documents numerous witness accounts who visited
Jasenovac and what they saw firsthand were rooms of children ankle
deep in their own excrement, their bodies covered with flies, the
rooms so packs with children they could only stand, their eyes like
Keen painting were as big as their distended stomachs.
Testimonies of the period are well preserved, they include those of
such people as Dr. Velimir Dezelic, Croat Red Cross whose single visit
to Jasenovac and subsequent report on September 3, 1945 reads like
Dante's Inferno of "rooms ankle deep in blood" and "stair wells
containing dozens of corpses of Serb children." This one report states
that from July 12th to October, 1942 more than 7,336 Serbian children
were killed in this grotesque manner. For Gerard who is keep score
that represents 1,834 per month or 15.2 Serbian children per day.
Murdered by Roman CAtholic nuns under the jurisdiction of Cardnial
Stepinac and the Zagreb Diocese. Are you so blinded by your hatred
Gerard that you simply cannot see?
Part of my opening remarks at Kingsborough College:
The American lexicon of the 1940s included such repugnant words as
"Japs, Kikes, Niggers and Pollocks." I remember those days, my father
was an immigrant coal miner, and I was automatically addressed by the
bigoted word "Hunky."
Today, in more subtle ways, name calling still haunts modern society.
In the contemporary context it has been easy for Americans to deny
knowledge of the Holocaust as though Auschwitz and Jasenovac were a
mere anomaly of history. But they are naive, 170 million victims have
been liquidated since Nuremberg.
Today, it is politically incorrect to attack blacks, Asians, Arabs and
homosexuals, but perfectly acceptable to attack a Serb, a name that
has become synonymous with evil. Terminology that demonizes Serbs with
collective guilt thrives. Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleberger
said: "Serbs are not too smart," and Assistant Secretary of State
Richard Holbrooke unashamedly called Serbs "murderous a-sholes."
Morton Kondracke called Serbs "bastards" on national television, while
Senator Biden used CNN to inform the world that Serbs were
"illiterates, degenerates, rapists and baby killers."
The Serbians have been denied food and medicine for the past 5 years
in a process known as "negative earmarking." This can only be
described as GENOCIDE by SANCTIONS. This conference will surely expose
one important reality: that Jasenovac was not a symptom, but the
full-blown disease of manifest hatred.
Gerard Serafin
message
> One thing we can say about Gerard, he had the
good sense to remove the
> frock of the Catholic priesthood but notice how
he now mocks all of
> the Christian tenants we once preached.
>Gerard would have us
> believe that after he was excommunicated from
the Roman church he fled
> to the Orthodox church who I am confident
accepted him with open arms,
> no questions asked. How betrayed the Orthodox
Christians must now
> feel.
This is so absurd and odd, William, bizarre.
If this is the quality of your "research" and your
presentation of "facts" well.......
Bizarre!
And wrong... (again).
++
Z Karadjordjevic wrote:
I have never read a reason to have beatified him in the first place. He is at
least an atrocity enabler who never publically confessed his complicity.
William Doric
Notice how cleverly Gerard avoids the real issue here and with
slight-of-hand tries to distract the readers' attention from the fact
that the first thing the Pope did when he entered Croatia as the first
pope in history to visit that country was to lay a wreath at the tomb
of Archbishop Stepinac.
Accusing the Serbian Patriarchate of not being eager or forthcoming
with some kind of proof about an invitation is merely a smoke screen,
especially since we all know that the Jews and their committee doing
research at the Vatican on the Holocaust archives walked out in
protest recently because the Vatican was refusing access to many of
those WWII files. Now who is hiding what?
When Dr. Milan Bulajic went to the Vatican to research his 4-volume
dissertation on the Crimes of Genocide in Croatia he was given a great
deal of access to those WWII archives until he, too, got to close then
suddenly and without explanation he was denied further access.
In 1992, in commemoration of the first Serbian Patriarch setting foot
on American soil and in concern for the 97 Serbian churches we lost in
Croatia the previous year, I compiled the book entitled, Kosovo. The
first book published in the United States on the subject. His
Holiness Patriarch Pavle wrote the introduction to that book. When he
arrived in Los Angeles and celebrated the Liturgy at the St. Steven
Cathedral and retired to the home of the local Bishop, I went there
with my wife taking a number of the Kosovo books for His Holiness to
autograph.
During this meeting in a room full of Serbian priests and bishops the
Patriarch, through his translator since I do not speak Serbian, told
us about the invitation of the Pope to join him at Jasenovac. At that
moment this was only an aside with little meaning as everyone in the
room agreed that such an invitation would fall on deaf ears at the
Vatican. This was a year prior to the pope going to Croatia. When he
did, and laid that wreath on the Stepinac tomb I remembered this event
and what the Patriarch told us and I wrote an articles in the American
Srbobran to point out this hideous contradiction and papal hypocrisy.
Would such a holy man invent the invitation story? Hardly! So stop
the charade in your post Gerard, address the real issue here that the
first official duty of the first visiting pope to Croatia prayed at
the tomb of Archbishop Stepinac which is far more important an issue
here in the on going discussing regarding Stepinac the war criminal,
than some invitation which only has a slight relevance to the story.
Certainly your are not this transparent, or are you?
Gerard Serafin
om..
> Would such a holy man invent the invitation
story? Hardly!
Would such a holy man (as John Paul II certainly
is) beatify a war criminal? Hardly!
>So stop
> the charade in your post Gerard, address the
real issue here that the
> first official duty of the first visiting pope
to Croatia prayed at
> the tomb of Archbishop Stepinac which is far
more important an issue
> here in the on going discussing regarding
Stepinac the war criminal,
> than some invitation which only has a slight
relevance to the story.
> Certainly your are not this transparent, or are
you?
I do not know what the Pope's "first" duty was in
his first visit to Croatia.
However, if it was to lay a wreath at Cardinal
Stepinac's tomb that would hardly suprise me or
anybody really. After all, it was the Pope who
beatified Stepinac.
I fail to see what that gesture either adds or
subtracts to this discussion. No one is doubting
this Pope's conviction of the holiness of Blessed
Aloysius Stepinac.
(And those in the New York area are probably
familiar with Archbishop Stepinac High School,
opened, I think, by Cardinal Spellman).
William Doric
see the one in which I tell my own family history. For sake of
redundancy I will repeat it. But Gerard, reminding the readers that I
was a first generation Serb had sadistic tones? Does that say,
careful, he has emotional ties to Serbia and therefore should not be
trusted? You even twist the fact, the truth is, II am a first
generation American.
In 1897 my grandparents were "ethnically cleansed" from Kosovo by
Albanian goons, they resettled in the Krajina region of what is today
Croatia. Krajina is the Serbian word meaning "frontier zone" The
Krajina was given to the Serbs by the Austrian Empire in exchange for
defending the Austrian borders from advancing Ottoman Turks. Serbs
were free to worship their faith and build their churches for keeping
the advancing Turks from entering Austria. That land was given to the
Serbs in the 15th century before there was ever a though of a Croatian
state.
My father was born in the village of Vojnic. Before he reached his
12th birthday the family was once again "ethnically cleansed," this
time by Croat fanatics who sided with Germany in World War I. They
came to the United States as DPs (Displaced Persons). In WWII in the
village of Vojnic, 17 of my relatives were burned to death in the
Serbian church. The communist had placed a plaque on the remains of
the stone wall of that church and in a visit to Vojnic in 1972 I
photographed the site and that plaque. In 1991 in the cultural
genocide of my people when 97 Serbian churches were razed in Croatia
the remains of the Vojnic church were blown up and bulldozed.
In this war during Operation Storm in 1995, the U.S.secretly aided and
abetted the genocide of my people in Croatia. My last 5 remaining
relatives were too old and too sick to flee. Several months later I
was notified that my relatives were found with their throats slit.
Therefore, I have firsthand experience at being demonized, terrorized
and called by hideous racist terms. I know what it is and was like
to be foreign
and treated differently by teachers and class mates. I know too, the
pain of being demonized by one's own government.
After 9/11 politicians and our president rushed to the defense of
Muslim citizens of this nation. We were told that it was improper to
be "intolerant" or to hold these Muslims accountable, yet these are
some of the very same people who demonized Serbs with collective guilt
and still do. When two Serbian churches in Chicago and one in Phoenix
were desecrated with Swastikas and filthy Croatian words spray painted
on the walls of the churches the national media never reported the
hate crimes. When the Serbian church in Arcadia, California was fire
bombed that destroyed the church hall attached to the church, it
never made the news on Los Angeles television, although the LA Times
did write a 3 paragraph article in which they blamed the fire on the
Serbs themselves for setting the fire, an ugly accusation when the
embers were still smoking. However, the real ugly aspect of the media
is the fact that in the past ten years and the thousands of articles
and OpEd features written about Bosnia, and Kosovo, not a single
article was published in the Times that was written by a Serbian
journalist, author, scholar or political leader.
Dr. Alex Dragnich, a former American diplomat in Yugoslavia after WWII
and a scholar who is the author of a dozen books on Balkan history and
politics and who was the recipient of the Thomas Jefferson Award for
scholarship at Vanderbilt University, presented the New York Times 42
articles in 1992 and 1993, not a single one was published.
In the thousands of Bosnian forums held at colleges and universities
across the great land not once were the Serbs invited to participate
and to give their views, and quite the opposite, we were ostracized
and told we were not welcome when we offered ourselves for speeches.
Even our federal government was a pack of hypocrites. Serbs were
denied access to the government for the past 10 years. Serbs were
never witnesses before the Helsinki Commission, the Foreign Relations
Committee or any hearings on Bosnia and Kosovo as though we were not
entitled to be heard. We were muzzled by our own government.
At one point a group of Serbs were invited to the White House and we
were asked to provide our Social Security numbers, addresses and
backgrounds to be allowed to participate. I was near the top of the
list of 15 Serbs and I was uninvited by the Clinton Administration in
spite of the fact that for nearly 10 years as a commercial
photographer and my participation in the NASA projects on the West
Coast and my holding a "top Secret" security clearance for over 12
years, I was uninvited to the White House by that sexual pervert in
office. Why? Because I am the most knowledgeable, most vocal Serb in
the United States. This is what hatred, bigotry and politics do to
American citizens who dare to be heard.
And by the way, three years ago I was audited by the IRS, both
personally and my corporation. Simultaneously, I was audited the same
week by the state of California, both personally and corporate, and by
the state board of equalization for sales tax. The audit cost me
$10,000 in legal and CPA fees, and I did not pay one single dime in
back taxes to the government, my books were perfect. The IRS auditor
told my CPA "they had to find something." What are the chances of 270
million people being audited simultaneously by all the branches of the
federal and state government ....the answer is quite simple one in 270
million. Apparently Clinton learned this disgusting trait from Nixon.
That, too, is how democracy is being perverted for anyone daring to
speak out in defense of their rights.
Bill Dorich
T254
Bill: Gerard does a play on words here. Notice he says
> The Serbian Orthodox
>> Church has not exactly been known for its
>> "ecumenism" and I doubt very much that Patriarch
>> Paul invited the Pope to a "Joint Liturgy or
>> Mass."
He knows very well we are not talking about an invitation to celebrate a 'joint
Liturgy or Mass' since we do not have intercommunion with the Roman Catholic
Church. So therefore, out it's of the question. And he's well aware of it.
Then he goes on to say -
>> If this is (obviously) incorrect than why should
>> we trust anything else you say or post?
He already knows it's incorrect because it isn't what the invitation was all
about. If I remember correctly the invitation was issued by the Patriarch
because things were heating up in Bosnia and the Patriarch figured if he and
the Pope could meet and issue a joint statement they may have been successful
in avoiding the impending conflict. The Pope turned his back on it.
This guy is slick. I swear he must work for the Vatican propaganda
organization.
Ya gotta listen very carefully to the words he writes. They are designed to
intimidate and confuse. he's trying to set a trap to discredit you.
Bob
robert G Tallick
sji
You may do well to instill more credibility by removing, or requesting
removal of your name/link from
http://compuserb.com/sdl/
at the bottom of the page
Or do you endorse that site?
My gut feeling is that you do NOT endorse it and are unaware of it's
contents.......is my assumption correct?
Best regards,
Jason Glavy
Yokohama, Japan
Gerard Serafin
news:9tsepv$1lqh$1...@nwall1.odn.ne.jp...
> Dear Mr. Doric,
>
> You may do well to instill more credibility by
removing, or requesting
> removal of your name/link from
>
> http://compuserb.com/sdl/
> at the bottom of the page
>
> Or do you endorse that site?
> My gut feeling is that you do NOT endorse it and
are unaware of it's
> contents.......is my assumption correct?
Jason, my gut feeling is that Mr. Dorich is quite
aware of the link and of the contents of the
website.
His language betrayed him all along -- the
language of an ideologue and a hater.
I, at least, was not at all surprised.
arch...@erols.com
sji wrote:
I doubt anyone can confuse Boris Pribich with William
http://compuserb.com/doricvat.htm
SDL's Members Only Section
July 23, 2000
For maximum security while our subscription
membership is still relatively small, we are storing
priviliged materials off site and blind copy
Emailing the address where the material is stored. We
will periodically change locations, and if you
have not been notified, please let us know
immediately. Thank you all for joining and please
invite your friends - we welcome all people of
good will.
Boris Pribich
P.O. Box 1154
Simi Valley, CA 93062
arch...@erols.com
William Doric
I was unaware of my name or my alleged endorsement of this site.
There are many Serbian sites that re-print my articles from more than
10 as a correspondent with the American Srbobran. The only site I was
a feature writer for was www.serbianna.com and I removed myself from
that site 4 years ago. I do not endorse any site and you will not
find me as a participant on any internet site for the past several
years—in spite of the fact that articles I have written have been
posted by others. This is the first time in more than 4 years that I
signed on to a discussion group and only did so because a Roman
Catholic priest, (excommunicated or not), is trashing Serbs with
collective guilt and defending a convicted war criminal whose priests
under his jurisdiction liquidated hundreds of thousands of Serbs.
As for Gerard being not being excummicated, as someone wrote to me
privately are we to believe that he left the Roman Catholic church and
the priesthood voluntarily and was permitted to take Holy Communion
after joining the Eastern Orthodox Church, the most hated church on
earth to the vast majority of Catholic priests and the majority of
their followers?
I have a bridge for sale.
P.S.
The reason I am not participating on any web site is because my
business schedule does not provide me the luxury of this time. The
only reason I posted this response now was several people personally
emailed me today and asked me to respond knowing I have nothing to do
with compuserb.com. I will ask the webmaster of that site to place a
disclosure when using any of my past writing. I will only be able to
read/and/or respond on this site when weekend time permits.
Bill Dorich
William Doric
I called the webmaster of compuserb.com who told me in respect for my
writing and how so many Serbs respect me he placed a disclaimer on his
site numerous times when reprinting my articles that said this
reproduction is not an indorsement of his site. Gerard is using his
smoke and mirrors again folks.
Gerard Serafin
for Gerard being not being excummicated, as
someone wrote to me
> privately are we to believe that he left the
Roman Catholic church and
> the priesthood voluntarily and was permitted to
take Holy Communion
> after joining the Eastern Orthodox Church, the
most hated church on
> earth to the vast majority of Catholic priests
and the majority of
> their followers?
>
> I have a bridge for sale.
Bill, I suspect that by now Bob Tallick is
regretting his invitation to you to pariticipate
in this group.
You have, in a few posts, completely discredited
yourself and any alleged objectivity and accuracy
in the facts.
Thank you.
T254
>in this group.
Don't put words in my mouth Gerard. For the record, I commend Bill for his
honesty concerning this subject. He gave you documentation and even the
sources you can go to for verification but you choose it shrug off because it
does not conform to your idea of the Roman Catholic Church or Cardinal
Stepinac. You demand proof from us but you never provide any proof to back
up your own statements. Why not get us those tapes of Cardinal Stepinac where
he supposedly broadcast over the BBC condemning the Utashie. I'm sure they
must be on file somewhere.
You accuse Bill of hatred. What I see is total frustration in a man who loves
both his religion, his family, and his nationality. All of which have been
maligned by people like you as well as the US government & NATO. Not to
mention the Roman Catholic Church. The Croation Catholics gave their side, the
Albanian Muslims gave their side, but the Serbs have not been given the common
courtesy to tell their side. And that must be frustrating as hell for a
people who have gone thru so much in just this century alone. No one was lily
white in this and especially not Cardinal Stepinac or the Roman Catholic
Church. At least not enough to deserve eventual sainthood.
So don't try and manipulate either me or my words Gerard.
>You have, in a few posts, completely discredited
>yourself and any alleged objectivity and accuracy
>in the facts.
No he hasn't descredited himself Gerard. He has given you the facts and the
sources to check them out. You on the other hand, have just printed info from
various websites you looked up with not one iota of proof to back up the
statements you print. Yet you demand it of us. You would have loved to
discredit him Gerard but it hasn't worked.
And this is all being told to you by someone from a Croatian background...ME.
My rightful name should be Ivanisevic. And would have been if the Pope hadn't
been so greedy and demanded payment in gold grant my great grandfather an
annulment from his barren first wife so he could provide an heir to the family
estates.
Look up the name Gerard. You will find it amongst the Croation aristocracy.
My great grandfther...a Croat died cursing the Catholic Chuch.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
> My great grandfther...a Croat died cursing the
Catholic Chuch.
What a horrible way to die!
Come to think of it, what a horrible way to
*live*!
Yet some seem quite willing to live (?) this
way.....
T254
>
>Come to think of it, what a horrible way to
>*live*!
What's even worse is the cause behind it. Papal greed and hypocrisy!
Bob
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
.
> >What a horrible way to die!
> >Come to think of it, what a horrible way to
> >*live*!
> What's even worse is the cause behind it. Papal
greed and hypocrisy!
Right, Bob! The Papal greed and hypocrisy of John
Paul II I guess.
No wonder you seem to despise this Pope so much
and often question his integrity.
But, of course, I hope you die blessing and not
cursing....
...and may it not be for many years!
For either of us! :-)
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great*
books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
"..pray for us sinners,*now* and at *the
hour of our death.*"
T254
>Paul II I guess.
Putting words in my mouth again Gerard? Actually it would have been the Pope
on the throne at the end of the 19th century.
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
.
That would have been Pope Leo XIII who is famous
for his encylical on social justice, "Rerum
Novarum," and who was, from all accounts I've
read, a good and holy Pope.
Some "legends" never die, however...and continue
to blind so many to the reality of things. And
give excuses to hold on to old hatreds, etc.
T254
>for his encylical on social justice, "Rerum
>Novarum," and who was, from all accounts I've
>read, a good and holy Pope.
That doesn't surprise me coming from a church that would beatify Cardinal
Stepinac. Perhaps our definitions of 'good' and 'holy' differ.
Bob
robert G Tallick
pap...@attglobal.net
> You have, in a few posts, completely discredited
> yourself and any alleged objectivity and accuracy
> in the facts.
Gerard: You have, in a great many post---and especially your incredibly
weak defense of the Croatian cardinal war criminal---have absolutely
discredited you from any discussions, as far as I am concerned. You are a
terribly confused person.
Gerard Serafin
Maybe that's the problem. I think that Pope Leo
XIII was a good and holy Christian; you think he
was greedy and a hypocrite (quoting your own words
here).
There is a fascinating online article on this Pope
(from the 1913 Catholic encylopedia) that details
some of his contributions to the
Church and to the world and gives indication of
his goodness and sanctity:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09169a.htm
Enjoy!
T254
I try and stay away from propaganda, white wash, and revisionist history.
The experience of my family is good enough for me Gerard.
robert G Tallick
William Doric
A Pox on all of your houses! By Wm. Dorich
I promised myself that I would not respond during my work week, but
this requires attention. It means a great deal Gerard, that the first
pope to visit Croatia in history laid a wreath at Stepina's tomb,
because that sent a clear message to Nazi Croats who still harbor
unsheathing hatred of the Serbian people and are unrepentant for their
former war crimes. Now their offspring commit the very same crimes
with impunity.
Yes, it was the pope who beatified Stepinac, but it certainly would
have gone a long way to stopping the madness on all sides in the
Balkans if the pope had accepted the Serbian Patriarch's invitation.
It would have sent a signal that what was done in the past is
unacceptable in the 21st century. It would have acknowledged for the
first time since WWII that the crimes of the church would no longer be
tolerated either. But, no, in spite of hundreds of documents that
indicate that 1,070 criminal priests fled to Argentina to escape
justice and that once Pavelic went to Argentina and became the
Security Advisor to Juan Peron who granted 34,000 visas to Croatian
war criminals, that it is time to apologize for their crimes against
humanity, regardless if Stepinac condoned their behavior it or not.
In this past decade we often read that "all sides are guilty, but the
Serbs are more guilty." This hideous political double-speak means
that a Serb who kills 40 Croats is more guilty than a Croat who kills
35 Serbs and that only the Serb is to be prosecuted. What is now
happening in international jurisprudence at the Hague is exactly that
process is the judges who are also the jury are only interested in
prosecuting one side for crimes committed in a civil war in which
there were no clean hands.
In the first case against Dusko Tadic the main prosecution witness
recanted his testimony and admitted that officials in the Muslim
dominated government threatened his life if he did not lie on the
witness stand. Yet Tadic was found guilty because these immoral
judges
said they could disregard that hideous 4 days of testimony. In
civilized society that case would be thrown out of court but not this
kangaroo court and appalling legalized lynch mob.
Gerard you seem to take the position that Stepinac is not guilty of
war crimes but why did the pope apologize to the Jews for how the
church treated them in WWII? Apparently your pope does not think it
worthy of apologizing to the Serbs in Croatia where Roman Catholic
followers and their priests liquidated 740 Serbian priest whom they
butchered in some of the most appalling ways seen in history?
Is there no apology that Roman Catholics destroyed over 400 Serbian
churches during the Holocaust and helped murder 1.5 million Serb
victims but worthy to apologize for killing less than 60,000 Jews?
Apparently those Serbs had it coming? Is no one guilty for this
hideous crime of genocide 60 years ago, only Serbs today are guilty of
such crimes?
The pope is quite political, including asking President Clinton to
bomb the Serbs immediately when he was in Denver, Colorado. And the
president obliged! That act alone clearly defined how deeply this
pope believes in the Ten Commandments he preaches, it reveals the
disgusting level of hypocrisy when his views about Iraq were quite the
opposite.
The Vatican vaults are filled with religious artifacts stolen from the
Serbs in WWII, and in the destruction of 97 Serbian churches in
Croatia in 1991, many icons, priceless books and religious artifacts
were looted from those Serbian churches before being blown up. I am
confident the Vatican has these treasures.
When the pope in 1974 returned a million dollars worth of these stolen
object from WWII to the Serbian Patriarch, the Vatican, by this very
act of returning stolen church objects admitted their unholy guilt.
Now that same Vatican refuses to open its archives to let the light of
truth in to expose the individuals who personally participated in war
crimes, killings Serbs, Jews and Gypsies with their own hands, and
then giving Holy Communion to absolve those in their midst whom they
encouraged to commit murder in the name of God? And still, the pope
refused to apologize to those Serbs and Gypsies and only apologizes to
the Jews, what a mockery of human decency. What an outrageous
hypocrite.
There is no shame in the Roman Catholic church for some of the most
grotesque crimes in history, some of which even turned the stomachs of
the NAZI SS troops who were liquidating by merely gassing people to
death which they thought acceptable. Croats and their priests had to
disembowel their victims, cut off fingers and toes, pull the beards
out of the faces of priests and light fires on their chests, gouge out
eyes and cut of genitalia stuffing them into the mouth of their
victims before they expired from this inhuman torture. And not a
single perpetrator was brought to justice at Nuremberg.
You worship this unholy man and you bestow on him Godly attributes
unfit for this creature who mocks everything Christ has taught us. He
defiles the Ten Commandments when it suits the hidden agenda of the
Vatican, this kind of priest is to be despised, not worshiped. May he
burn in hell for eternity for his sins. We now through many archives
and several books about Hitler's Pope, this pope is his brother in
crime, not his brother in Christ.
Angry, hostile, upset, you bet your ass I am. When you walk in my
shoes and have twice been victimized by genocide in one lifetime and
remain the sole survivor on earth of your entire family due to the
unholy crimes from the Roman Catholic church; and when you are told in
every way that you are not entitled to be heard by your government;
that you are muzzled by the press; that you are denied access to
forums to tell your side of the tragic story; then yes, you would be
rightfully angry, too.
A pox on all of your houses.
Gerard Serafin
> The pope is quite political, including asking
President Clinton to
> bomb the Serbs immediately when he was in
Denver, Colorado. And the
> president obliged! That act alone clearly
defined how deeply this
> pope believes in the Ten Commandments he
preaches, it reveals the
> disgusting level of hypocrisy when his views
about Iraq were quite the
> opposite.
Let's have one shred of evidence for this
outrageous charge, OK.
One shred....
..of *evidence.*
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great*
books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
sji
Hello Gerard,
I am glad to see Mr. Tallick's and others' prayers have brought you back
to health. I had no idea who this guy is/was, so I did a web check. Hit
lots of Serbian nationalist sites, but the one above is REPUGNANT (that is,
http://compuserb.com/sdl/) and anyone that would support it cannot be called
"Christian". I wanted to give Mr. Doric the benefit of the doubt and clear
up any misconceptions. I try not to judge without first hearing what the
person in question has to say, so I await Mr. Doric's reply. Maybe Mr.
Tallick could kindly pass on this request to Mr. Doric?
Best regards, and I hope you remain in good health.
Jason Glavy
Yokohama, Japan
T254
>person in question has to say, so I await Mr. Doric's reply. Maybe Mr.
>Tallick could kindly pass on this request to Mr. Doric?
>
>Best regards, and I hope you remain in good health.
Jason: perhaps you are having the same problem as I am and not receiving all
the replies. Bill Doric has already answered your post. Also note the
disclaimer at the bottom of the site you give. Here is Bill's reply which you
obviously have not read -
"Gerard Serafin" <jer...@home.com> wrote in message
news:<DktM7.55970$Ze5.31...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>...
> "sji" <s...@saronix.co.jp> wrote in message
> news:9tsepv$1lqh$1...@nwall1.odn.ne.jp...
>
> > Dear Mr. Doric,
> >
> > You may do well to instill more credibility by
> removing, or requesting
> > removal of your name/link from
> >
> > <A HREF="http://compuserb.com/sdl/">http://compuserb.com/sdl/</A>
> > at the bottom of the page
> >
> > Or do you endorse that site?
> > My gut feeling is that you do NOT endorse it and
> are unaware of it's
> > contents.......is my assumption correct?
>
> Jason, my gut feeling is that Mr. Dorich is quite
> aware of the link and of the contents of the
> website.
>
> His language betrayed him all along -- the
> language of an ideologue and a hater.
>
> I, at least, was not at all surprised.
>
> Gerard Serafin
>
> Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
> A Catholic Page for Lovers:
> <A HREF="http://praiseofglory.com">http://praiseofglory.com</A>
> "Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
> <A
HREF="http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm">http://praiseofglory.com/books.h
tm</A>
I was unaware of my name or my alleged endorsement of this site.
There are many Serbian sites that re-print my articles from more than
10 as a correspondent with the American Srbobran. The only site I was
a feature writer for was www.serbianna.com and I removed myself from
that site 4 years ago. I do not endorse any site and you will not
find me as a participant on any internet site for the past several
years—in spite of the fact that articles I have written have been
posted by others. This is the first time in more than 4 years that I
signed on to a discussion group and only did so because a Roman
Catholic priest, (excommunicated or not), is trashing Serbs with
collective guilt and defending a convicted war criminal whose priests
under his jurisdiction liquidated hundreds of thousands of Serbs.
As for Gerard being not being excummicated, as someone wrote to me
privately are we to believe that he left the Roman Catholic church and
the priesthood voluntarily and was permitted to take Holy Communion
after joining the Eastern Orthodox Church, the most hated church on
earth to the vast majority of Catholic priests and the majority of
their followers?
I have a bridge for sale.
P.S.
The reason I am not participating on any web site is because my
business schedule does not provide me the luxury of this time. The
only reason I posted this response now was several people personally
emailed me today and asked me to respond knowing I have nothing to do
with compuserb.com. I will ask the webmaster of that site to place a
disclosure when using any of my past writing. I will only be able to
read/and/or respond on this site when weekend time permits.
Bill Dorich
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There were also other replies to you regarding this site -
sji wrote:
> Dear Mr. Doric,
>
> You may do well to instill more credibility by removing, or requesting
> removal of your name/link from
>
> <A HREF="http://compuserb.com/sdl/">http://compuserb.com/sdl/</A>
> at the bottom of the page
>
> Or do you endorse that site?
> My gut feeling is that you do NOT endorse it and are unaware of it's
> contents.......is my assumption correct?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jason Glavy
> Yokohama, Japan
I doubt anyone can confuse Boris Pribich with William
<A
HREF="http://compuserb.com/doricvat.htm">http://compuserb.com/doricvat.htm</A>
SDL's Members Only Section
July 23, 2000
For maximum security while our subscription
membership is still relatively small, we are storing
priviliged materials off site and blind copy
Emailing the address where the material is stored. We
will periodically change locations, and if you
have not been notified, please let us know
immediately. Thank you all for joining and please
invite your friends - we welcome all people of
good will.
Boris Pribich
P.O. Box 1154
Simi Valley, CA 93062
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[I suggest you access this site]
<A HREF="http://speculum.virtualave.net/">http://speculum.virtualave.net/</A>
sji wrote:
> Dear Mr. Doric,
>
> You may do well to instill more credibility by removing, or requesting
> removal of your name/link from
>
> <A HREF="http://compuserb.com/sdl/">http://compuserb.com/sdl/</A>
> at the bottom of the page
>
> Or do you endorse that site?
> My gut feeling is that you do NOT endorse it and are unaware of it's
> contents.......is my assumption correct?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jason Glavy
> Yokohama, Japan
robert G Tallick
JOH...@webtv.net
orthe other. In the Case of Nicholas II the entire world is
knowledgeable about the grief his despotic rule of Russia caused the
world.
Also let us not forget that the wars of aggression that Serbia conducted
against the other provinces of Yugoslavia were often refered to as
Orthodox Serbia against who ever.Also when the European powers finaly
acted to stop Serbian Aggression and Genocide.It was the Orthodox,Russia
and Greece that took Serbia's side.Even Orthodox churchs in the Unted
States were sympathetic to Serbia.
Dushevno
>In the Case of Nicholas II the entire world is
>knowledgeable about the grief his despotic rule of Russia caused the
>world.
Is that so? Would you provide some details?
T254
>or the other.
But Johnny WebTV the record is very clear regarding Cardinal Stepinac and the
role his Roman Catholic priests of the Franciscian order played in WWI. It is
just being suppressed and white washed even today. And all paid for by the
Medjugorje deception that even the Vatican won't back.
Since both you and Gerard seem to dismiss everything we post as communist,
Serbian, or Orthodox propaganda - Lets hear about it from one of your own.
Phillip Kronzer who is a very devout Roman Catholic and head of the Kronzer
Foundation for Religious Research who investigates the autrocities of WWII
along with the current medjugorge deception. Notice Mr Kronzer has made
frequent trips to the Vatican and has even met with Cardinal Ratzinger -
http://www.kronzer.org/news_visittorome.html
A Visit to Rome - January, 2001
Phillip Kronzer, a devout Catholic and relentless foe of those who
seek to pervert the doctrines of the universal Church, recently
traveled to Europe to spread his message about the religious
fraud and corruption in Medjugorje, Bosnia.
He was received at the Vatican in Rome and Fatima in Portugal
and has been a frequent visitor to the office of Cardinal Ratzinger.
Kronzer has traveled extensively throughout the United States
and Europe in his quest and has been instrumental in exposing
charlatans and scam artists who prey on the unaware.
Internationally, Phillip has brought his mission to Rome,
Medjugorje, Fatima, and London. Kronzer's investigations have
made it no longer safe for him to visit Medjugorje, but
investigators for the Kronzer Foundation maintain a presence
there and reports are received regularly on the abuses
committed.
Phillip Kronzer and the Kronzer Foundation are unique; their
privately funded efforts provide a watchdog function for the
Church. However, the Kronzer Foundation does not just catalog
abuses, it takes action to expose the wicked betrayers of the
Church and provides help to their victims.
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.kronzer.org/commentary_page_1.html
March 2, 2001: Medjugorje, Bosnia –According to the New York Times the UN
War Crimes
Tribunal at the Hague, Netherlands on February 26 sentenced Dario Kordic, who
was long a
close ally of former President Franjo Tudjman of Croatia, to 25 years in prison
for crimes
against humanity and other violations. It also convicted Mario Cerkez, a former
brigade
commander of Croatian troops in Bosnia, of similar crimes and sentenced him to
15 years in
prison. The court linked Mr. Kordic to General Blaskic, another Croat war
criminal now serving
a life sentence. The war crimes were all committed in the Lasva region of
Bosnia and
included the murder and burning alive non-Croatian men, women, and children.
The crimes of the Croatian paramilitary units echo similar atrocities committed
in Bosnia
against Serb inhabitants during the Second World War. Up to 700,000 were
slaughtered by
the Nazi inspired Croatian Ustashe bands who were usually accompanied and urged
on by
fanatical Franciscan monks. During the latest round of ethnic cleansing in
Bosnia-Herzogovina, the Franciscan Order is once again implicated. Medjugorje
or “Miracle
City” is the center of Croatian ultra nationalism in Herzegovina, here the
Blessed Virgin Mary is
said to appear nightly for crowds of gullible American and British pilgrims who
come in hope of
miracle cancer cures and divine visions. While the visions and cures are as
illusory as the
apparitions which are not recognized by the Vatican, the hard cash left behind
funds a variety
of non pious activities including legal defense of war criminals and
acquisition of munitions.
According to Phillip Kronzer of the California based Kronzer Foundation for
Religious
Research, “Dario Kordic was a tour guide at Medjugorje when he was not out
killing and raping
children. He claimed to know all the best ways to have visions of the Virgin
Mary.” Kronzer, a
successful Silicon Valley businessman, who founded the Kronzer Foundation, lost
his wife to
a Medjugorje centered cult and has dedicated himself to exposing the fraud that
surrounds
Medjugorje. “Trust me,” said Kronzer a devout Catholic, “Medjugorje is
the last place in the
world the Virgin Mary would appear, the place is soaked in the blood of the
Croats’ victims.”
The Kronzer Foundation is involved in public interest lawsuits seeking to
prevent Medjugorje
promoters from raising money in California by using deceptive fundraising
practices including
miracles on demand, sale of phony Papal indulgences, and rosaries that
seemingly turn to
gold. The Kronzer Foundation is also gathering information that will be
turned over the Hague
Tribunal that implicates the Franciscan Order in the current round of Bosnian
atrocities.
The Franciscan Order controls the shrines at Medjugorje in defiance of the
local bishop. But
Kronzer and the local bishop are not their only critics. Jonathan Levy, an
attorney suing the
Franciscan Order on behalf of World War II era victims of the Croatians, mainly
Serbs and
Jews, is not surprised at the allegations. “During WWII the Franciscans not
only blessed the
Ustashe but often joined their ranks as ritual executioners, temporarily
exchanging their
crucifixes for knives used to slit their victims throats at the infamous
Jasenovac concentration
camp. Today the Franciscans deny their Nazi past but the evidence against them
is
monumental.”
The Kronzer Foundation not only has linked Kordic to Medjugorje but also has
evidence that
high level Franciscans from Medjugorje traveled frequently to The Hague to
advise General
Blaskic and pay for his legal defense team. The Medjugorje movement collects
tens of
millions of dollars each year from its adherents, much of the money deposited
at a Franciscan
controlled bank in Mostar, Bosnia.
Other website addresses:
http://www.kronzer.org/news_postheralsarticle1.html
http://www.kronzer.org/news_cardinal.html
http://www.kronzer.org/news_article3.html
www.bosniacoverup.com
www.vaticanbankclaims.com
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
.
> >What ever Cardinal Stepinacs mistakes. The
record is not clear one way
> >or the other.
> But Johnny WebTV the record is very clear
regarding Cardinal Stepinac...
Yes, and the Pope, affirming that record, has just
beatified Stepinac.
For you or anyone to try to somehow tie Stepinac
with Medjugorje is rather desparate; but since
there is no real evidence presented to condemn
Stepinac (other than the "evidence" of the mock
communist trial), it doesn't surprise me to see
yet another attempt to discredit.
I hope, Robert, though you don't die as your
grandfather did -- cursing.
May you die -- blessing.
And not for a long time to come (ad multos
annos!).
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
"Do not read good books; read *great* books!":
T254
>there is no real evidence presented to condemn
>Stepinac (other than the "evidence" of the mock
>communist trial), it doesn't surprise me to see
>yet another attempt to discredit.
An attempt made by a Roman Catholic Gerard. As far as the evidence - it has
been presented and it was also evidence that was given to the allies not the
communists. And it was evidence given by Croats and Roman Catholics. This has
already been pointed out to you several times but you chose to ignore it. How
sad that someone is so brain washed that they can't see the forest for the
trees. And tend to block out what they don't want to hear.
>I hope, Robert, though you don't die as your
>grandfather did -- cursing.
>
>May you die -- blessing.
Low blow Gerard. And it was my great grandfather. However, my grandfather
also had little respect for that same church. But then again you are the king
of low blows. You know perfectly well that this was a figure of speech to
point out how much my great grandfather despised the Roman Catholic church for
it's greed an hypocracy. That's why he hated it until the day he died. And
with just cause.
>For you or anyone to try to somehow tie Stepinac
>with Medjugorje is rather desparate;
Was he or was he not the Cardinal of Croatia at the time all this was going on?
robert G Tallick
arch...@erols.com
sji wrote:
Frick n Frack during the Bosnian and Kosvo wars but now disassociated ?
Just a guess (concerning the disassociation).
A web posted (in the Yugoslav newsgroup) photo of an Albanian being flayed alive
upside down was attributed to the owner of compuserb (perhaps incorrectly, but I
don't recall him denying it). It hung around on the newsgroup for a few
horrifying days
Gerard Serafin
.
> >For you or anyone to try to somehow tie
Stepinac
> >with Medjugorje is rather desparate;
> Was he or was he not the Cardinal of Croatia at
the time all this was going on?
What does that have to do with alleged apparitions
of Mary *today?*
Criticize Medjugorje all you wish, Robert. As you
(gleefully) show us (and, of course, I already
knew), many Catholics criticize it too.
But just don't tie this modern phenomenon to
Stepinac, OK? He's long gone to his reward or
punishment....
It strikes me as desparate and a very "low blow."
And yet another condemnation by innuendo (as most
of the criticism of Stepinac seems to me).
T254
of Mary *today?* Criticize Medjugorje all you wish, Robert.]
You are right when you use the terminlgy 'alleged'. What does it have to do
with Medjugorie? It was in Medjugorie that 700,000 Orthodox were slaughtered.
That's what it has to do with medjugorie.
>But just don't tie this modern phenomenon to
>Stepinac, OK? He's long gone to his reward or
>punishment....
Reward OR PUNISHMENT Gerard? If he has been beatified by the Pope shouldn't
that just read 'reward'? Seems you also are having your doubts about the Holy
Father's decision.
Bob
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
.
> >But just don't tie this modern phenomenon to
> >Stepinac, OK? He's long gone to his reward or
> >punishment....
> Reward OR PUNISHMENT Gerard? If he has been
beatified by the Pope shouldn't
> that just read 'reward'? Seems you also are
having your doubts about the Holy
> Father's decision.
I thought you'd like that one, Robert.
Time to lighten up a bit perhaps.
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the romance of orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"Do not read good books; read *great*
books!":
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
arch...@erols.com
T254 wrote:
> [What does that have to do with alleged apparitions
> of Mary *today?* Criticize Medjugorje all you wish, Robert.]
>
> You are right when you use the terminlgy 'alleged'. What does it have to do
> with Medjugorie? It was in Medjugorie that 700,000 Orthodox were slaughtered.
Actually, the number was quite different, but that does not diminish the horror of
the atrocities committed there.
>
> That's what it has to do with medjugorie.
>
> >But just don't tie this modern phenomenon to
> >Stepinac, OK? He's long gone to his reward or
> >punishment....
>
> Reward OR PUNISHMENT Gerard? If he has been beatified by the Pope shouldn't
> that just read 'reward'? Seems you also are having your doubts about the Holy
> Father's decision.
>
> Bob
>
> robert G Tallick
Interior Ministry
Announcement
Skopje, November 29 (MIA) - Macedonian Interior Ministry announced that the
Albanian terrorist groups attacked between 17.00 - 18.00h Wednesday the police
stations in Jegunovce and Vratnica and the posts in Staro Selo, Odri, Ramniste and
Zelino. At 20.15h the terrorists fired flares towards Pozarna post, Teteks post as
well as towards the police stations in Miletino and Zicara.
Around 02.00h the terrorists with machineguns, automatic weaponry and flares
attacked the police posts Zicara and Teteks. Macedonian security forces
responded to the armed attack, and no casualties were reported.
In the period between 20.00 - 06.00h the Macedonian Interior Ministry registered
single shots, volleys of automatic fire and flares from Zelino, Tenovo, Celopek,
Palatica, Glogji, Strmnica, Ciflik, Dobarce, Miletino, Tearce, Odri, Gorno Orasje,
Recica and Prsovce, Tetovo settlement Tekstilna kolonija, elementary school
"Lojd", "Teke" and "Vonvardarska," "M. Paftijari," "Stipska," "Cetinska" and
"Przova bavca."
Explosive device was planted near Hairdressing studio "Natea" causing material
damage.
IM informs that during the armed provocations 11 stores, 3 houses, 7 motor
vehicles and the office of Tetovo municipality were damaged.
In Kumanovo region of crisis, shootings were registered between 17.00 - 23.00h
from Opae, Nikustak, Vistica, Matejce, Ropaljce and Otlja villages.
Just before midnight shots were registered from Vaksince, Lopate, Bukurica,
Opae, Orizare and Ropaljce villages. vj/vd/17:41
Steve Hayes
>>But just don't tie this modern phenomenon to
>>Stepinac, OK? He's long gone to his reward or
>>punishment....
>
>Reward OR PUNISHMENT Gerard? If he has been beatified by the Pope shouldn't
>that just read 'reward'? Seems you also are having your doubts about the Holy
>Father's decision.
Oh come off it.
You make it sound like "Damned if you do and damned if you don't".
First the guy gets flamed for making a lot of Roman Catholic assumptions in an
Orthodox ng, then he gets flamed when he doesn't make them.
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
June R Harton
<arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3C06AA0B...@erols.com...
> Skopje, November 29 (MIA) - Macedonian
Fyromian or West Bulgarian if you like, Gail, but not Macedonian.
MACEDONIA IS PART OF GREECE, south of Fyrom.
from: Spirit Of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
vladimir markovic
> Let's have one shred of evidence for this
> outrageous charge, OK.
This of can not serve as a valid evidence at courts of earthly kingdom of
ours, still it may be a suggestive trail of hypocrisy. And where there is
hypocrisy, there is always much more to it.
As we are thought by Holy Fathers, soul can not achieve it's peace without
first repenting sincerely and deeply for it's past sins, no matter how
remote these are.
Coming to visit Croatia for the first time, Pope Voytila had just two
alternatives of how to act:
- first, to add visit to Jasenovac concentration camp site to his schedule,
and to invite Croat Roman Catholics to repentance of sins of ethnic and
religious hatred: politically, a highly unpopular gesture it would be, but
it would purify the church on long terms
- second, realising that the first choice would cause an overwhelming
condemnation among Croat Catholics, it was much more pragmatic to accept the
beatification of a highly suspicious wartime cardinal Stepinac, which gave a
clear message to catholic believers in Croatia: "You are not that guilty."
That was the price for keeping churches in Croatia relatively full during
services, and the Vatican on good terms with the previous Croatian regime.
Pope, as we know, choose the latter...