I'd like to introduce myself the members of ARCEO. I'm Jack
Jack Riddingplot
here on alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox.
I'm doing research. Specifically, I'm doing research into the beliefs,
attitudes, opinions, fears, hopes, and dreams of Orthodox Christians
who would self-identify as being "conservative".
I'm not all that interested in "official" views -- I can get those
from "official" documents of all sorts, ecclesiastical and political.
I'm interested in "unofficial", maybe "(un)popular", but always
personal viewpoints from Orthodox Christians who are very decidedly
and proudly "conservative", in all the senses of the word
"conservative". You don't have to pretend to be speaking for some
church or political party, all I'm looking for is your own personal,
"conservative" viewpoint.
I hope I don't sound too nosy. After all, it never hurts to ask; you
can only say no. :-)
Thanks for any help you can give me.
And if you have any questions about me, don't be shy. After all, I can
only say no. ;-)
Jack R.
Alexander Arnakis
<jackrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi, I'm Jack, and I'd like to introduce myself to the people who post
>here on alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox.
>
>I'm doing research. Specifically, I'm doing research into the beliefs,
>attitudes, opinions, fears, hopes, and dreams of Orthodox Christians
>who would self-identify as being "conservative".
>
If you want Orthodox Christians, look elsewhere. This place is a
cesspool.
Catherine Jefferson
Not entirely, Alex. You're still here, after all, and so am I. ;P
However, Jack, if you're doing serious research, I'd suggest that you
check out some Orthodox Christian mailing lists and web forums. The
activity seems to be there these days, and the signal to noise ratio is
*much* better. Email me at the email address in my signature if you
need some pointers, or to ask questions. (I'm not a self-identified
conservative politically, but religiously and theologically I'm
conservative by most measures.)
Under His mercy,
--
Catherine Jefferson <ar...@devsite.org>
Personal Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
v1_0
wrote:
Jack, right off the top you have hit on a fear of mine..
Years ago, this was a pretty sedate newsgroup that had some pretty
good discussions. Now and again there were non-Orthodox Christians
that stumbled into the group and started trying to convert us to
Christianity from Judeaism.
We had our share of spirited debates, mostly about Orthodoxy,
sometimes about Greece/Macedonia, Albania sometimes. And our share
of non-Orthodox regulars that would jump into a debate when there was
opportunity to speak about their pet topics.
We got to know each other's stances pretty well. For example,
Alexander, who has already replied to your post, at one time did not
accept the teachings of Orthodoxy per-se. I don't know if this has
changed, but at the time he was "Orthodox" because it is a Greek
tradition to be Orthodox.
All in all, things were pretty sedate. A lot of discussions were
about if some news item should be posted in the Orthodox newsgroup,
when they were not specifically concerning Orthodoxy. This occured
whenever someone would post something about, say, political
legislation.. or the goings on of another religion, etc.
We had our own "moderator" by the name of James - although he didn't
have any actual authority over the newsgroup, he managed to take to
task anyone who would post items that were "not of Orthodox
interest". He was quite... energetic about it as I recall. He, and
someone called Galina, would go at it for posts upon posts - between
the two it was about "Macedonia is not Greek" or it may have been
"Albania is not Greek" or was it "should be Greek"??. This was, to
his mind, a political question and not suited to a religous
newsgroup. Galina had other ideas on the matter... Been a long time,
could be wrong about the names but I do remember this sort of thing.
I can't remember if the cross postings came first, or maybe it was the
political spam that started things off. At some point, much of it
got cross posted. This attracted attention.
The number of "drive by" threads increased as well - someone would
come in, and post something - usually a tract, sometimes a bunch of
what seemed to be randomly generated drivel, and then would never
check back to see any responses.
There were also people that posted logic that was so crazy, it seemed
like even they couldn't duplicate it - let alone understand thier own
reasoning. It is hard to discuss things under such circumstances.
But enough of my reminiscing, now I can get to the point:
At some point we started getting a number of "I am genuinely seeking
information about Orthodoxy" type postings. These very often were
solicitations to start "attack threads", usually at some point they
were cross posted as to get maximum involvement.
There seems to be a strong possibility that yours is one of this sort
- especially as you are looking for "conservatives".
But, on the chance that you are not, I would agree with Catherine -
there are better forums to work with, this one has become.. er..
rough. There are many here who would present themselves as Orthodox
while being far from it. I would not be surprised if a few would
attempt to skew your research, just because they could. After time,
you could probably come to know who is who, and to be able to avoid
this problem.
If you still feel the need to use this as a source from your research,
perhaps it would be better to ask specific questions. After all,
"beliefs/attitudes/opinions/fears/hopes/dreams" is rather a very large
topic.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>Jack, right off the top you have hit on a fear of mine..
>
>
>There seems to be a strong possibility that yours is one of this sort
>- especially as you are looking for "conservatives".
>
>But, on the chance that you are not, I would agree with Catherine -
>there are better forums to work with, this one has become.. er..
>rough. There are many here who would present themselves as Orthodox
>while being far from it. I would not be surprised if a few would
>attempt to skew your research, just because they could. After time,
>you could probably come to know who is who, and to be able to avoid
>this problem.
>
>If you still feel the need to use this as a source from your research,
>perhaps it would be better to ask specific questions. After all,
>"beliefs/attitudes/opinions/fears/hopes/dreams" is rather a very large
>topic.
Well said.
++
Dear Jack,
You sound like the occasional sociology student who shows up here from
time to time. Why not narrow down you focus and at least define how
you view the term "conservative". Even the so-called and self
proclaimed liberals here are conservative in numerous respects.
Some people writing here are not Orthodox or have left Orthodoxy or no
longer attend Orthodox services outside weddings and funerals. There
are sociological differences jurisdictionally. Orthodoxy is a
worldwide religion and this newsgroup pretty much reflects American /
Canadian and western European Orthodox churches, emphasis on the
American.
Douglas Mosier
wrote:
If you want Orthodoxy you've come to the wrong place. This is a
political jousting site for two men on the east coast, and a wannabe
blog for a Vardar Macedonia activist in DC. Little Orthodox is
discussed here; when it is, it's purely by accident.
Here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/OrthodoxWay/?
Good place.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm http://www.facebook.com/vasjpan2
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]
Douglas Mosier
Ignore vjp2, Jack. He's the resident "the soviet spies are
everywhere" loony.
Catherine Jefferson
> On Nov 19, 10:52 pm, vjp2...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>> Oh, yeah, such STalinist obscnina intolerance of dissent!
> Ignore vjp2, Jack. He's the resident "the soviet spies are
> everywhere" loony.
He is that. But when off the subject of the all-Slavic panto-conspiracy
to destroy the Orthodox Church, he does occasionally have something to
say that's worth hearing. Not always strictly about Orthodoxy, but
neither is much of what others in here discuss. <wry grin>
v1_0
> Ignore vjp2, Jack. He's the resident "the soviet spies are
> everywhere" loony.
What makes you think that they aren't? :)
The KGB had a pretty good track record, if you think about it.
There's a few books by an author named Mitrokhin, who was incharge of
the KGB archives and defected - bringing along a lot of notes and
stuff that he had hidden over the years. Seems to have credibility
in the intelligence community (not at first, I suppose it was too much
to believe...) - not being 'on the inside' of this, I cannot be sure,
though.
-V
Lucky Velotres
because they owe their disotred religion to the slavocommunists:
330 BC Great Alexander fences first Russians, Magog of Persian Gog,
with Caspian Gate of Caucasian Dervent. Scyths, Turks, and Russians
are mindless barbarian extracts of Persian steambathing deerherders,
and in sum constitute the eternal threat not only to Hellenism but all
civilization.
866 Patriarch Fotios commences schism on Rome Pope Nicholas on cause
of Bulgarian frivolities favoring Rome. This instigated orientalist
Platonic Chrysostomist black clergy overcoming Aristotelian Capadocian
whites after collapse of iconoclasm.
1235 Bulgarians declare Trnvo Third Rome, seeking Greece and
Constantinople. This adopted by Russians in in 1589, declaring
protocommunist obschina to slavify world The urban mentality is the
root of Hellenistic Civilisation, thus those seeking peasant clan
naturalism are slavseeded squatters.
1342 Communist Zealotes take Salonica, slaughtering aristocracy on
orders of Russian agent Gregory Palamas. Palamas brings Slavs and
Turks to support 1345 Cantacuzene usurpation, giving Turks knowledge
of defenses. Spread oriental demonic hyperventilatory hallucination
hesychasm, turning monks into soviet agents. Toynbe wrote that Asia
Minor farmers embraced Turks to avoid Cantacuzene taxation.
1824 Russia opposes to the creation of unique Greek state and under
orders of Minister of Exterior Nesserode (German victor for seat
against Kapodistrias) proposes to remaining powers the foundation of
three separated Greek statelets, vassal tributary simultaneously to
Turkey and Russia, as earlier with Moldovia and Georgia.
1843 On command of Nesselrode is dispatched the panslav Archimandrite
Uspensky to turn Arab-held Grecophone Christian flocks of Jerusalem
and Antioch patriarchs and finally achieves in 1847 the detachment of
Antioch who now proclaims dehellenising dissemination. Turning to
Persozoroastrian roots, Russians embrace monofysites as misunderstood
victims of Greeks, and fabricate supposed Aramaic Gospels over Greek.
These efforts consummated century later with Michael Aflaq, founder of
Saddam Assad Ba'ath Party.
1870 Panslavs assault Ecumenical Patriarchate with publication of
Turkish firman founding autocephalous Bulgarian racial parasynagogues,
supposed Exarchate, under orders of Russian ambassador Ignatief. Now
they distort the synodical anathema at racism against dispora. They
allocated five myriad rubles in 1872 to slavify Holy Mountain and
expel Greeks.
1878 Ignatief forces Turkey sign St. Stephen Treaty commencing FYROM
and creating Greater Bulgaria inclusive of Salonica. Ignatief
announces "And now if Greeks wish Constantinople, let them arrive
swimming!"
1923 Plastiras slaughters victors of Macedonia, allowing orientalists
Vafiades and Zahariades commence civil war. Meletios Metaxakis seeks
move Patriarchate to Moscow at Lenin invitation and organises supposed
panOrthodox Youth Syndesmos. In 1937 Stalin displaces 285 thousand
Russian Greeks to Archangel and Siberia and slaughters them. The black
goats force even Mataxas and Junta into Socialism
v1_0
See, Lucky welcomes you to the newsgroup too!
Guess Who
"v1_0" <v1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9cfbba0-b25d-4564...@h2g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 20, 12:18 pm, Lucky Velotres <lakisvelot...@gmail.com> wrote:
See, Lucky welcomes you to the newsgroup too!
***Hail, hail the gang's all here!!!
Jack Riddingplot
Hi Alexander. Thank you for the warning. Is it really that bad?
I've been lurking a few weeks, and, sure, there are a couple of
"characters" who suffer with psychosocial problems, but having spent
time in places, situations, and events where people ended up at room
temperature or unable to carry on anything resembling a "normal" life,
it looks tame to me. Distasteful, yes (even noxious). Nothing I've
seen would lead me to believe that Orthodox Christianity has any power
at all to change lives for the better, but perceptions are what they
are. Maybe I should have said, "self-identified Orthodox Christians"?
To me, it doesn't matter. The divide between the "official" or
"ideal", and "popular" religious spheres is often vast, but it's
precisely that divide that interests me most.
Do you self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian?
Jack
Jack Riddingplot
Hi!
Thank you (and you too Catherine!) for the suggestions and warnings,
but I'm not too worried. After you've been in situations where you've
had to throw out some of your clothes because the blood sprayed
everywhere, things seem pretty tame here by comparison.
As I responded to Alexander, the phrase "self-identified" is crucial,
for both "Orthodox Christian" and "conservative". The official picture
is easy to get through church documents, official websites, and
whatnot, but it's the social, unofficial, and -- yes -- the "rough"
picture that really interests me. And I'll be asking some very
specific questions too.
Jack
Jack Riddingplot
> Dear Jack,
>
> You sound like the occasional sociology student who shows up here from
> time to time. Why not narrow down you focus and at least define how
> you view the term "conservative". Even the so-called and self
> proclaimed liberals here are conservative in numerous respects.
>
> Some people writing here are not Orthodox or have left Orthodoxy or no
> longer attend Orthodox services outside weddings and funerals. There
> are sociological differences jurisdictionally. Orthodoxy is a
> worldwide religion and this newsgroup pretty much reflects American /
> Canadian and western European Orthodox churches, emphasis on the
> American.
Hi!
Do we stink that badly? ;-)
But that's precisely what I'm trying to avoid -- imposing my
definition. The fact that someone self-identifies as
"conservative" (as opposed to liberal or whatever) is itself
meaningful.
I look at it this way: "races" don't really exist, but we use
categories like "blacks" or "whites" in popular discourse anyhow.
They're convenient labels for a whole bundle of concepts. If a "white"
person and a "black" person have a child together, there's a process
of self-identification that goes on in and around the child that
commonly results in self-identification on way or the other (usually
as "black"). That process says nothing about race as race, but speaks
volumes about the racial labeling going on.
Jack
Jack Riddingplot
>
> If you want Orthodoxy you've come to the wrong place. This is a
> political jousting site for two men on the east coast, and a wannabe
> blog for a Vardar Macedonia activist in DC. Little Orthodox is
> discussed here; when it is, it's purely by accident.
>
> Here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/OrthodoxWay/?
>
> Good place.
Hi Douglas!
Mmm...but I'm not interested in Orthodoxy per se. In fact, the ARCEO
forum was recommended to me specifically because the political noise
to religious signal ratio is so consistently high!
Jack
Jack Riddingplot
kind.
Now that I've acquainted myself a bit with the group, I'll feel better
over the coming months as I ask questions.
Jack
Alexander Arnakis
<jackrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Do you self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian?
>
on me, whether I want it or not. Therefore, it's not important if I
self-identify as "Orthodox" (whatever that means). Orthodoxy is not
like Protestantism, where you can change religion like you change
underwear.
What *is* important, in terms of your query (read: trolling), is that
I *don't* self-identify as a conservative. Therefore, I have nothing
to tell you. (You could have gleaned my positions from my copious
posts on this newsgroup, if you had lurked like you said.)
Alexander Arnakis
<jackrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mmm...but I'm not interested in Orthodoxy per se. In fact, the ARCEO
>forum was recommended to me specifically because the political noise
>to religious signal ratio is so consistently high!
>
insist on making it so.
Guess Who
"Alexander Arnakis" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:2aeeg5h9cb07avjag...@4ax.com...
***I admire your ability to deduce.
Guess Who
"Alexander Arnakis" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
***The nuttiness is now driven by the unidentified imposter.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
*+-The KGB had a pretty good track record, if you think about it.
Back in the early 1980s I kept hearing from ROCOR that the KGB had
given up on communism and was staging a coup out of Russian patriotism
because they alone could see the facts without ideology. In
retrospect, Andropov and Gorbachev and Putin could well have done just
that. Having said that, Putin has been a big disappointment and I have
been further disappointed by RUssians' being unable to fully
appreciate Yeltsin.
My reply to Mosier's intolerance disguises the fact that I had replied
to the poster directly earlier.
++
wrote:
> ++ wrote:
> > Dear Jack,
>
> > You sound like the occasional sociology student who shows up here from
> > time to time. Why not narrow down you focus and at least define how
> > you view the term "conservative". Even the so-called and self
> > proclaimed liberals here are conservative in numerous respects.
>
> > Some people writing here are not Orthodox or have left Orthodoxy or no
> > longer attend Orthodox services outside weddings and funerals. There
> > are sociological differences jurisdictionally. Orthodoxy is a
> > worldwide religion and this newsgroup pretty much reflects American /
> > Canadian and western European Orthodox churches, emphasis on the
> > American.
>
> Hi!
>
> Do we stink that badly? ;-)
I didn't apply any value judgements. If you meant was it obvious? Yes
>
> But that's precisely what I'm trying to avoid -- imposing my
> definition.
yawn
The fact that someone self-identifies as
> "conservative" (as opposed to liberal or whatever) is itself
> meaningful.
>
> I look at it this way: "races" don't really exist, but we use
> categories like "blacks" or "whites" in popular discourse anyhow.
> They're convenient labels for a whole bundle of concepts. If a "white"
> person and a "black" person have a child together, there's a process
> of self-identification that goes on in and around the child that
> commonly results in self-identification on way or the other (usually
> as "black").
Not necessarily. The majority of people I know glory in their
multiethnicity.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
delayed gratification, learned from religious asceticism, but wreck social
structures through the same incestant tinkering that makes them achieve.
Othodox Christians, Jews and Presbyterians are the most accomplished
Americans, but they also seem to always be on the left. It was said during
the Dukakis campaign that Greeks are conservative, but their politicians are
always liberal. To read Denis Felix' bio of (Presbyterian) Condi RIce and her
parents' self-sacrificing early-dying devotion to the education of their
daughter is most instructive. THis type of extreme parenting is consistently
characteristic of overachievers. WHen I interviewed students who applied to
COlumbia, the ones who got in seemed to be mind melded with their parents.
In a social sence, these quiet kids are much more conservative that the
street thugs who later grow up to be conservatives. I complained that the
collapse of conservatism in 2008 was because the conservatives stopped acting
like conservatives in their personal behavior. A Greek professor recently
insisted to me that Aristotle was the "first Catholic", yet the dichotomy of
philosophy is totalitarian idealist Plato-Conficius-Hegel vs practical
individualistic Aristotle-Laotsu-Burke. (I prefer James Madison to Edmund
Burke in this.) When RUssia supressed the Hegelians in 1848, they fled to the
USA, and as both Protestants and Jews, feuled first the abolition of slavery,
then the rapid increase of socialism, but they also were the drivers behind
the American Industrial Revolution. How much more dichotomous than that can
you get?
Jack Riddingplot
Alexander,
I think I understand, but please correct my understanding if it's way
off base.
You yourself don't self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian
confessional adherent, i.e. you have issues with some, many, or all
policies or belief structures of the official faith communities
commonly regarded as legitimate, canonical Orthodox Christian
jurisdictions. These official communities and their members themselves
still identify you as being one of their own, albeit estranged.
It will still be interesting to read your responses, even if you don't
class yourself as a political or social conservative. It's always
helpful to establish the broader setting for narrower attitudes. I'm
not particularly after any thoughts on current situations or events.
While indicative of the broader picture, they're pretty ephemeral. I
won't be asking questions about President Obama's health care
initiatives or the bank bailouts, but things like "To a (conservative)
Orthodox Christian, what is the ideal relationship between the
official teachings and disciplines of the Church and the State?"
Jack
John Galt
> Alexander Arnakis wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:31:37 -0800 (PST), Jack Riddingplot
>> <jackrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Do you self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian?
>>>
>> I was baptized as an Orthodox Christian. That confers a certain status
>> on me, whether I want it or not. Therefore, it's not important if I
>> self-identify as "Orthodox" (whatever that means). Orthodoxy is not
>> like Protestantism, where you can change religion like you change
>> underwear.
>>
>> What *is* important, in terms of your query (read: trolling), is that
>> I *don't* self-identify as a conservative. Therefore, I have nothing
>> to tell you. (You could have gleaned my positions from my copious
>> posts on this newsgroup, if you had lurked like you said.)
>
> Alexander,
>
> I think I understand, but please correct my understanding if it's way
> off base.
>
> You yourself don't self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian
> confessional adherent, i.e. you have issues with some, many, or all
> policies or belief structures of the official faith communities
> commonly regarded as legitimate, canonical Orthodox Christian
> jurisdictions. These official communities and their members themselves
> still identify you as being one of their own, albeit estranged.
Well, I'm sure it's been pointed out already, but Alex comes from a very
traditional ethnic identity position which cannot separate "Greek" from
"Orthodox." I myself go to an Antiochian church where perhaps 5% of the
families are from an ethnic Antiochian Orthodox background, the vast
majority being converts, and therefore we DO (fortunately or
unfortunately) reserve the right to change our religion if we choose
(although I think "underwear" is an unfortunate metaphor).
We have, for example, at least three Greek families and a Greek deacon,
all of whom dislike the type of "Greekness Orthodoxy" that Alex
advances, and are not in a Greek church for that reason.
>
> It will still be interesting to read your responses, even if you don't
> class yourself as a political or social conservative. It's always
> helpful to establish the broader setting for narrower attitudes. I'm
> not particularly after any thoughts on current situations or events.
> While indicative of the broader picture, they're pretty ephemeral. I
> won't be asking questions about President Obama's health care
> initiatives or the bank bailouts, but things like "To a (conservative)
> Orthodox Christian, what is the ideal relationship between the
> official teachings and disciplines of the Church and the State?"
Ideally, they don't touch each other. In practice, we all wish to live
in a state that, even if it is secular, reflects and mirrors our desired
views and lifestyles. So, in my case, even though I don't self-identify
as a social conservative and have a great deal of criticism for them AS
A MOVEMENT in that they desire to exert some level of politicolegal
control over people's personal lives, I am unable to *not* take
emotional positions on matters such as abortion and gay marriage because
they formulate a society which, when transmitted through public
institutions such as schools to my children, are fundamentally at odds
which the religious teaching they receive at church and at home. This,
as any decent sociologist will then tell you, creates a condition we can
refer to a social dysphoria, which often becomes the basis for some
level of social dissolution in society.
JG
Jack Riddingplot
> On Nov 20, 7:15 pm, Jack Riddingplot <jackriddingp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ++ wrote:
> > > Dear Jack,
> >
> > > You sound like the occasional sociology student who shows up here from
> > > time to time. Why not narrow down you focus and at least define how
> > > you view the term "conservative". Even the so-called and self
> > > proclaimed liberals here are conservative in numerous respects.
> >
> > > Some people writing here are not Orthodox or have left Orthodoxy or no
> > > longer attend Orthodox services outside weddings and funerals. There
> > > are sociological differences jurisdictionally. Orthodoxy is a
> > > worldwide religion and this newsgroup pretty much reflects American /
> > > Canadian and western European Orthodox churches, emphasis on the
> > > American.
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Do we stink that badly? ;-)
>
> I didn't apply any value judgements. If you meant was it obvious? Yes
I understand. It's hard to hide, and I wouldn't want to. I don't think
it would be entirely ethical to pretend to be an Orthodox Christian or
to do the research on the sly. There are people who adopt "deep cover"
and enter faith communities through initiation rituals and outward
profession without any inward assent or belief whatsoever, but I have
ethical qualms about that. It's dishonest, and the personal
associations made during the process are inevitably broken -- usually
very painfully -- at the end.
> >
> > But that's precisely what I'm trying to avoid -- imposing my
> > definition.
>
> yawn
I'm just being honest. For example, "liberal" in the United State of
America in 2000s has a very different meaning than "liberal" in Europe
of the 1950s. Another example, the Republican Party in the USA
currently has a "litmus test": abortion. A few decades ago it
supported abortion rights because it was the party that stood up for
personal rights and responsibilities.
> The fact that someone self-identifies as
> > "conservative" (as opposed to liberal or whatever) is itself
> > meaningful.
> >
> > I look at it this way: "races" don't really exist, but we use
> > categories like "blacks" or "whites" in popular discourse anyhow.
> > They're convenient labels for a whole bundle of concepts. If a "white"
> > person and a "black" person have a child together, there's a process
> > of self-identification that goes on in and around the child that
> > commonly results in self-identification on way or the other (usually
> > as "black").
>
> Not necessarily. The majority of people I know glory in their
> multiethnicity.
Aside from noting that multi-racial and multi-ethnic are two different
categories, I must say you're very fortunate. Racism still lingers in
too many communities--sometimes covert, sometimes overt--but always
destructive.
Jack
Jack Riddingplot
Hi John!
I understand the Greek = Orthodox cultural equation, and have seen it
extended as a para-racial identity even among third and fourth
generation immigrants who can't speak a word of Greek and eat chaat
chole, dhal, and naan for supper. I've put this down to minority
pride--"There are so few Greeks in the world we've all got to stick
together."
On the other hand, I've seen many Chinese immigrants lose that kind of
self-identification by the third generation. They retain no language,
no cultural traditions, and eat Chinese less than I do. There's even a
derogatory word for them: bananas (yellow on the outside, white on the
inside). Aside from the epicanthic fold, nothing about them identifies
them with their cultural, ethnic, or racial origins. Intermarriage and
complete assimilation is common. I've put this down to majority
confidence--"No matter what happens to us, there are billions of us."
I understand your point about social dysphoria. Traditionalist
communities of all sorts are experiencing it.
Nice to make your acquaintance.
Jack
John Galt
I think the Arab immigrant process is even faster. "Arabness" seems to
be gone in the first generation born here. Christian Arabs, as far as
I've seen, do not seem to have any interest in influencing their
children to marry another Arab. When you say to them "Your kids will be
American (or Swedish, where I've also had this dicussion), not Middle
Eastern" they simply acknowledge the truth to the statement, considering
it obvious and not considering it worth further discussion.
It's been noted that the Middle East has been the path from "there" to
"here" for every conquering army in the region in history. Their famous
hospitality may be a simple function of a history of having to learn to
"get along."
JG
JG
Catherine Jefferson
That depends on where in the United States you live now, lived and went
to school as a kid, what ethnicities are involved, and other factors.
Most American Orthodox Christian converts I've known who have
multiethnic ancestry are proud of it, but I've lived on or near the west
coast for most of my adult life, since long before I was an Orthodox
Christian. Plenty of "born Orthodox" feel the same way -- people with
perhaps one or two Russian, Greek, or Arab grandparents, and not
infrequently a mix of them. But then, most *people* out here feel the
same way -- there's nothing unique to Orthodox Christians about this.
I've also encountered a large Russian Orthodox community that, in my
presence, complained that a Russian Orthodox convent with an active and
faithful Japanese American nun was "run from Japan". I've had Greek
Orthodox at Greek churches I've visited unable to understand why an
American whose ethnic background wasn't traditionally Orthodox would be
interested in converting except to get married. A third generation
American immigrant from Russia, born here and by my standards as
American as I am, reacted with horror when I called him American. ("I'm
*Russian*!") And I knew a few older Russian ethnic Orthodox people that
avoided a close friend of mine and her grandsons because she was "a Jew"
(she was of Romanian Jewish extraction, but had converted to Orthodox
Christianity many years earlier) and they were "black!" (Her husband had
been African American, and her grandsons' mother was from Samoa).
These people are not the norm, of course, if you look at Orthodox
Christianity in lots of places and churches. But they exist and there
are more than just a few of them. From what I've seen I think we
Orthodox Christians mirror America rather well overall. The details are
a bit different, and some aspects of who we are would look exotic in
some places at first, but the essence just isn't that different. Where
you see the unique features of Orthodoxy -- the reasons I became
Orthodox -- is elsewhere.
Alexander Arnakis
<spam...@spambouncer.org> wrote:
>
>That depends on where in the United States you live now, lived and went
>to school as a kid, what ethnicities are involved, and other factors.
When I was in elementary school in Texas (5th and 6th grades), in the
1950's, the most popular girl in the class had a Mexican-American
mother and a German-American father. But I didn't find this out until
later. Her Mexican identity was totally suppressed (she was blonde),
and even instead of "German," she claimed to be "Austrian." There were
stigmas attached to being Mexican and even to being German (because of
the War).
A couple of years earlier, I myself had kids in my class call me
"dirty Greek" to my face.
We've made a lot of progress in this country in the last 50 years.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>I think the Arab immigrant process is even faster. "Arabness" seems to
>be gone in the first generation born here. Christian Arabs, as far as
>I've seen, do not seem to have any interest in influencing their
>children to marry another Arab. When you say to them "Your kids will be
>American (or Swedish, where I've also had this dicussion), not Middle
>Eastern" they simply acknowledge the truth to the statement, considering
>it obvious and not considering it worth further discussion.
>
>It's been noted that the Middle East has been the path from "there" to
>"here" for every conquering army in the region in history. Their famous
>hospitality may be a simple function of a history of having to learn to
>"get along."
>
Catholic, etc.) are a distinct minority among the Arabs. They've also
historically been at odds with their Moslem neighbors. These factors
have tended to weaken their ethno-cultural Arab identity. In the West,
Arabs have to face a greater social stigma tha, say, Greeks or
Russians. So it's not surprising that Christian Arabs would want to
shed their Arab identity once they emigrate to the West.
BTW, I've found that non-Orthodox Greeks (Protestants and Jews) also
shed their Greek identity rather quickly once they come to the West.
I've seen this in my own family.
Catherine Jefferson
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:42:10 -0800, Catherine Jefferson
> <spam...@spambouncer.org> wrote:
>> That depends on where in the United States you live now, lived and went
>> to school as a kid, what ethnicities are involved, and other factors.
>
> When I was in elementary school in Texas (5th and 6th grades), in the
> 1950's, the most popular girl in the class had a Mexican-American
> mother and a German-American father. But I didn't find this out until
> later. Her Mexican identity was totally suppressed (she was blonde),
> and even instead of "German," she claimed to be "Austrian." There were
> stigmas attached to being Mexican and even to being German (because of
> the War).
When I was in the fifth and sixth grades, I lived in El Paso, Texas. It
was the early 1970s. A couple of years later, in high school, my
Spanish teacher was a blonde, blue-eyed Mexican woman whose maiden name
was Mueller. Her great-grandparents had immigrated to Mexico from
Germany; there were and probably still are large German ethnic
communities in northern and central Mexico. Mexico is every bit as
diverse ethnically as the United States, although the proportions of
different backgrounds are somewhat different.
El Paso wasn't much like the rest of Texas where ethnic and racial
attitudes are concerned. The population was 70% "Mexican-American"
(whatever that meant) when I lived there. We've had Mexican American
mayors and aldermen since El Paso was in Mexico, and speaking Spanish
was a necessity when I was growing up unless I was willing to live
isolated among Anglos. (I wasn't, and I still speak it fairly well
although I left when I was eighteen for college and never moved back.)
My paternal grandmother's family were heart-of-Texas anglos, though, and
I got plenty of exposure to a type of racism that would shock most
Americans nowadays. :/ They were not evil, hateful people, though --
just products of the attitudes and beliefs of their time and place.
I fit in better out west. :-)
> A couple of years earlier, I myself had kids in my class call me
> "dirty Greek" to my face.
Ick. :(
> We've made a lot of progress in this country in the last 50 years.
Definitely. We're not there yet, but we're a whole lot closer.
v1_0
wrote:
> Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:31:37 -0800 (PST), Jack Riddingplot
> > <jackriddingp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Do you self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian?
>
> > I was baptized as an Orthodox Christian. That confers a certain status
> > on me, whether I want it or not. Therefore, it's not important if I
> > self-identify as "Orthodox" (whatever that means). Orthodoxy is not
> > like Protestantism, where you can change religion like you change
> > underwear.
>
> > What *is* important, in terms of your query (read: trolling), is that
> > I *don't* self-identify as a conservative. Therefore, I have nothing
> > to tell you. (You could have gleaned my positions from my copious
> > posts on this newsgroup, if you had lurked like you said.)
>
> Alexander,
>
> I think I understand, but please correct my understanding if it's way
> off base.
>
> You yourself don't self-identify as being an Orthodox Christian
> confessional adherent, i.e. you have issues with some, many, or all
> policies or belief structures of the official faith communities
> commonly regarded as legitimate, canonical Orthodox Christian
> jurisdictions. These official communities and their members themselves
> still identify you as being one of their own, albeit estranged.
Jack,
Not to dwell on this, but I don't think Alexander would mind
being estranged from the religious aspects of the Greek Orthodox
church, so long as he could attend the social aspects.. Maybe
another way of phrasing this is that he likes the administrative role
that the church performs within the Greek community, and he likes it
as a shared tradition - but he would be happier if it would replace
church services with strictly social gatherings. Again, this may
have changed, its been a while. I don't recall the exact reasons
for his estrangement to the religion, but I do respect his honesty in
saying just where he stands.
Although I am cradle Orthodox, I have found that most of the
Greek Orthodox churches have been... innaccessable... to me. I not
Greek, therefore I am second rate. This is not unique to Greek
Orthodox. A clear sign of this is not having an english liturgy (in
an english speaking country). In this regard, I would be a
conservative - the tradition in Orthodoxy is to use the language of
the land.
>
> "To a (conservative) Orthodox Christian, what is the ideal relationship between the
> official teachings and disciplines of the Church and the State?"
>
Ah, I think this can be summed up by "Render unto Caesar". Well, at
least in theory. The trouble is that in a democracy we are all, in
part, a little bit Caesar.
++
I personally don't think of Alexander as being Orthodox. I think of
him as a person who grew u among Protestantism of some variety or
another and Orthodoxy, chose not to be an Orthodox Christian when he
became an adult, attends other faith services by choice or marital
affiliation (his wife belongs to one or another of the Episcopal
branches, does not believe as an Orthodox and whose value here on the
newsgroup is being able, from his personal knowledge bank, to know a
certain amount about the Orthodox faith.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>I personally don't think of Alexander as being Orthodox. I think of
>him as a person who grew u among Protestantism of some variety or
>another and Orthodoxy, chose not to be an Orthodox Christian when he
>became an adult, attends other faith services by choice or marital
>affiliation (his wife belongs to one or another of the Episcopal
>branches, does not believe as an Orthodox and whose value here on the
>newsgroup is being able, from his personal knowledge bank, to know a
>certain amount about the Orthodox faith.
Galina, why do you feel called upon to answer for me, when I am right
here?
Jack, Galina is our resident net-nanny and buttinsky. Her goal is to
put others down and thereby elevate herself, all for the purpose of
furthering her #1 preoccupation, Macedonian-Slav nationalism. Her
so-called Orthodoxy is a sham.
Catherine Jefferson
> Galina, why do you feel called upon to answer for me, when I am right
> here?
>
> Jack, Galina is our resident net-nanny and buttinsky. Her goal is to
> put others down and thereby elevate herself, all for the purpose of
> furthering her #1 preoccupation, Macedonian-Slav nationalism.
There is some truth to the above, but it isn't even close to the whole
picture. I remember this same woman welcoming me into the Orthodox
Church fifteen years ago. I'm not sure which forum we were both on at
the time (it was before ARCEO existed), but her "nationalism" consisted
of reminding me not to be in a hurry to judge everyone and everything in
the Church by the usual convert yardsticks. She also provided a bunch
of useful background to things that often puzzle American converts.
I've seen Alex do the same. They were both right. ;-)
> Her so-called Orthodoxy is a sham.
This is *not* true. :/ Alex, perhaps you need to relearn the art of not
judging things you really don't understand.
Under His mercy,
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
Archdiocese as a secular lobbying tool for the use of the Greek
government (as documented by Berkely Prof Paul Manolis). They really
don't like religion. Except for the Brooklyn and Boston parishes
Greek churches used to be under Russia. But Lenin got the courts to
start giving him property to sell for cash because the Tzar had funded
them. In 1922, AHEPA and the GOA were founded, Lenin won his civil war
and Greece was massacred at Smyrna. The churches were turned into
AHEPA properties becauce many states had laws defining them as
Russian. Venizelos was a leftist who turned the stable Tricoupist
Greek democracy into a banana republic with his five coups from
1909-1935, setting the stage, or rather beginning the bloody civil war
that by some accounts only ended with the arrest of the N17 terrorists
in 1998.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
religious, but Arnakis is just the one most honest about it. Many of
the Slavs want to hide from western hostility towards "the heresy of
Photius" as the Paris Archbishop justified the Crimean War, but their
goals are to create an "American Orthodoxy" that will tilt USA policy
towards Russia.
Many of the converts also joined out of political motivation. None of
them are political moderates. There are many who came to Orthodoxy out
of conservatism and who largely ended up in the Old Calendar
wings. Others, mostly outside the USA, came out of a leftist and
pro-soviet ideology.
It is also worth noting that the supposed Arabicity of Antioch was a
fabrication of the Tsarist Foreign Minister Nesselrode who sent a
Bishop named Uspensky to de-Hellenise them so that they might convince
the Arabs to Christianise and rise up against the Turks. The Ba'ath
Party (Assad & Saddam) of secular Orthodox Michel Aflaq was a direct
consequence of this.
Stephen Adams
Bingo! That's why she supports Nick Kobbs - she hopes he'll run off
anyone who disagrees with her...
-Stephen
--
Stephen Adams
crathv...@tznvy.pbz (rot13)
Alexander Arnakis
vjp...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:
>Alexander refers to the way Greek PM Venizelos created the USA Greek
>Archdiocese as a secular lobbying tool for the use of the Greek
>government (as documented by Berkely Prof Paul Manolis).
I've never "referred" to Venizelos creating the Greek Archdiocese. I
fact, I doubt that happened, because the majority of the
Greek-Americans, at that time, were probably Konstantinists rather
than Venizelists. I think the Greek Archdiocese was created for
reasons internal to the Greek-Americans.
> They really
>don't like religion. Except for the Brooklyn and Boston parishes
>Greek churches used to be under Russia. But Lenin got the courts to
>start giving him property to sell for cash because the Tzar had funded
>them. In 1922, AHEPA and the GOA were founded, Lenin won his civil war
>and Greece was massacred at Smyrna. The churches were turned into
>AHEPA properties becauce many states had laws defining them as
>Russian. Venizelos was a leftist who turned the stable Tricoupist
>Greek democracy into a banana republic with his five coups from
>1909-1935, setting the stage, or rather beginning the bloody civil war
>that by some accounts only ended with the arrest of the N17 terrorists
>in 1998.
>
First of all, the November 17 terrorists were arrested in 2002, not
1998. But even that is meaningless, because, if you've been following
the news, you know that domestic terrorism is alive and well in Greece
to this day.
Venizelos wasn't a "leftist." He was an irredentist nationalist, a
liberal centrist in his domestic policies, and an extremely astute
politician. For example, after Greece had gone into Asia Minor at the
behest of the Allies, and gotten bogged down there, he called early
elections that he knew he would lose, so that the blame for the
impending disaster would fall on his opposition. and, sure enough,
after Smyrna fell, the Gounaris government was sent to the firing
squad. The Venizelists were called back into power.
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
in its present form is a Venizelist fabrication.
Title: The History of the Greek Church in America in Acts and Documents
Author: Paul G. Manolis
Publisher: Ambelos Press
Date of Publication: January 2003
ISBN: 0972437304
Price: $135.00
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
Communism Visas. My mom's dad was killed in a mass grave on mt Olympus for
having been here illegally 1910-22, having been ethnically cleansed from his
Mt Grammos birthplace in 1885 by the Bulgarians. My dad was a supply corporal
in the battle to liberate Grammos from the reds and was introduced to my mom
by the restauraneur whose Kastorian restaurant my dad had to appropriate to
feed the troops ten years earlier. My dad, from Prussos, also in the Pindus
Mts, had been invited by a cousin who bought a dead man's passport in 1936
but who received amnestry under Ike's Registry Program. Both my parents
wanted to become chemical engineers, but my dad dropped out of CCNY when I
was born, so I became one from Columbia at the age of nineteen. In college I
led both the College Republicans (under Abramoff and Norquist) and the
Orthodox Fellowship (with Fr Stepahnopoulos as pastor). When my father wa sin
the hospital with a broken hip, my GOP chums got me a White Hous einterview
which was scuttled by a future ambassador to Greece because he felt I was too
conservative to be loyal to "Greek National Interests." So I ended up a quant
at the NY Fed Reserve and am now a "biostrategist." In my college years my
ideal view of my church was shattered when the Quackandroids got rid of our
1955 Flushing founding priest because (ABT Princeton) he was too American,
which is what led me to found the OCF. That parish, now the USA largest, was
founded in large part by students of my dad's brother whose village was
burned down by the reds. When my parents were dying the same Efram bin
Spyridon Quackandroids brought down the only Archbishop I ever knew, Iakovos,
and their purges made us have to hold my folks' memorials in different
churches. Half of my folks' siblings continued to live in Greece, where I
first walked, and where I have visited 1962, 1964, 1969,1970,1972,1975, 1976,
1977, 1981, and lastly 1988. I have relatives mostly in the Appalachian and
the Great Lakes areas of the USA. in 1966 the same Athens University graduate
teacher taught me to read and write in English, Greek and French. In 1978 the
same backstabbing Greek cabals brought down that school, which was the first
Greek American school that ran from nursery to junior college.
++
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:44:16 -0800 (PST), "++" <galja...@gmail.com>
I didn't answer for you as you are fully capable of doing so yourself,
I just provided my opinion of your Orthodoxy, or lack thereof, based
on my observations, following a string of netmember opinions of
various posters on our netgroup. It is, I think, the first time I
have offered such an opinion despite the fact you have provided your
own very skewed, off the wall and amusing (to me) opinions of
myself. :)
athair ambrois
Do not look here for too many signs of normal healthy Orthodoxy.
Because of the complete lack of censorship on these particular lists
you will find all sorts of garbage. It can be, and often is, a
cesspool where disturbed individuals can express themselves without
restraint.
Try some of the Yahoo lists, such as Orthodxo-Forum.
Fr Ambrose
Russian Orthioodx Church
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
*+-Do not look here for too many signs of normal healthy Orthodoxy.
Anywhere! No such thing!
*+-Try some of the Yahoo lists, such as Orthodxo-Forum.
Stalinist obschina intolerant coercion?!
v1_0
> Not to dwell on this, but I don't think Alexander would mind
> being estranged from the religious aspects of the Greek Orthodox
> church, so long as he could attend the social aspects.. Maybe
> another way of phrasing this is that he likes the administrative role
> that the church performs within the Greek community, and he likes it
> as a shared tradition - but he would be happier if it would replace
> church services with strictly social gatherings. Again, this may
> have changed, its been a while. I don't recall the exact reasons
> for his estrangement to the religion, but I do respect his honesty in
> saying just where he stands.
I apologize for posting this. After reviewing the posts this
morning, I see the fruits of this sort of thing are in actuality much
different than what I thought it would be.
Regardless of what disclaimers/intentions I have: Alexander should
state what he believes.
-V
v1_0
> *+-Do not look here for too many signs of normal healthy Orthodoxy.
>
> Anywhere! No such thing!
To be fair, I think that Fr Ambrose is using a figure of speech.
Similar to saying something like "The USA was angry with
Afghanistan". Or in using a phrase such as "Let's not beat around
the bush". Taken literally, these things do not make sense.
-V
Jack Riddingplot
> You will find that most people here are actually more political than
> religious, but Arnakis is just the one most honest about it. Many of
> the Slavs want to hide from western hostility towards "the heresy of
> Photius" as the Paris Archbishop justified the Crimean War, but their
> goals are to create an "American Orthodoxy" that will tilt USA policy
> towards Russia.
>
> Many of the converts also joined out of political motivation. None of
> them are political moderates. There are many who came to Orthodoxy out
> of conservatism and who largely ended up in the Old Calendar
> wings. Others, mostly outside the USA, came out of a leftist and
> pro-soviet ideology.
That's why ARCEO was recommended to me...the unabashed politics.
Jack
v1_0
wrote:
Jack,
Church deals with morality.
Morality deals with individual actions and decisions.
Democracy deals with decisions on governance. (AKA politics)
Government deals with group actions and decisions and affect
individual actions/decisions.
There is, naturally, a good deal of overlap. Both church and state
deal with individual actions/decisions. Hence, there will always be
some pressures between church and state.
Seperation applies to the organizations... God forbid we ever get to
the point where people are asking for seperation of morality and
state... And we have seen examples of the reverse, where the church
and state have become one. I believe that this *will* be a good
thing - when Jesus is head of state - but not when any single or group
of humans is both (head of church and state).
Morality should also be present in political discussions (politics),
both as part of the decision as well as in the conversations.
Orthodoxy places a great deal of stress on 'doing'/'experiencing' -
knowledge is deemed as important in that it should affect our actions:
our relationship with God, our relationships with others, our
relationship with ourselves, our relationship with creation. It
should drive our choices: what we eat, wear, how we speak, act... and
even our very thoughts: some thoughts are good and others not so good
- there are techniques to self-control there as well. And yes, our
political decisions/thoughts as well.
Of course, we are all people and are imperfect. That means we can
know all this, and yet make bad choices - deliberately, or not so
deliberately. We also have a 'blurry' view of things at best.
Until we reach a point where we have "a knowledge of the will of God
at all times", we have to do the best we can. If we want to. There
are so many distractions and things that would take away.. We can be
decieved, etc.
-V
Jack Riddingplot
Hi, Fr. Ambrose!
Thanks for your response. I was wondering if there were any members of
the clergy lurking or posting here.
Not being an Orthodox Christian, it would be a bit presumptuous of me
to think I could distinguish "normal healthy" Orthodoxy from other
kinds of Orthodoxy. Everything that I see here paints a picture, an
icon, if you will, of Orthodox Christianity as lived out in the world
by Orthodox Christians. But, as I've noted, I'm not really interested
in Orthodoxy per se, my focus is more its effects as a social and
political catalyst.
The lack of censorship, and that includes "self-censorship", is
precisely what makes ARCEO interesting. The images I get during ritual
service, or in social time afterward are, to be honest, carefully
edited. People bite their tongues and wear all sorts of polite masks
to hide the "inner man". It's all so very guarded, so proper. For
example, I can't think of a single Orthodox venue where those
participating would dare use such language as "hairy anal shot", "Male
Ass Eaters Anonymous, "bitch slapped", or "Democrap" with such free
abandon. This is what makes ARCEO so brilliant. The perception of
anonymity, the lack of social restrain, and the absence of any
meaningful consequence allows the true "inner man", and "inner woman",
to emerge.
I'm pleased to make you acquaintance.
Jack
Lucky Velotres
Orthodoxy:
http://download404.mediafire.com/lpmzswttlcdg/nnzjzzofzzq/2cyusgknw.pdf
++
We are all entitled to our opinions, and indeed, you have expressed
yours. Thanks for the apology