Jesus prayer in Russian
Phil Hanna
several forms, is there are preferred one? If not, can anyone just
supply the form that goes "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy
on me, the sinner"?
The Cyrillic form is fine, but a phonetic transliteration would be
helpful.
Thanks.
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
language of the Russian people:
Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя, грешнаго.
GOspodi I-iSUSje KhristJE, SIne BOzhi-i, poMIlui mja GRESHnago.
That is the male form. For a female, replace GRESHnago with GRESHnuju.
R.V. Gronoff
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan a e'crit:
> In Church Slavonic--which, rather than Russian, is the religious
> language of the Russian people:
>
> Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя, грешнаго.
> GOspodi I-iSUSje KhristJE, SIne BOzhi-i, poMIlui mja GRESHnago.
>
> That is the male form. For a female, replace GRESHnago with GRESHnuju.
>
Yes, but doesn't грешнаго sound more like grje'shnav@ ? At least, this is
how it's pronounced by most Russian people who pronounce church slavonic
like modern russian.
--
Merci d'enlever vos_chaussettes pour me re'pondre par mail.
Ma nouvelle adresse/My new adress: me^me nom/same name @ifrance.com
F Gerald
it no one speaks it just a method of maintaining control not
communicaton or building understanding and furthering the Church?
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <hben...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<foMNa.27494$bK5.5...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
Dmitri
the modern Russian and South Slavic languages than either Latin or (even Koine)
Greek are to their modern counterparts.
Can we say red herring?
dimo
Dmitri Mosier
Iowa City, Iowa
F Gerald
accurately it is one that has been beat sufficently...
I have talked to many Russians who are very put off by an emphasis on
Slavonic and often even more so by American "Russians" romantic views.
orth...@aol.comorzinio (Dmitri ) wrote in message news:<20030706131411...@mb-m11.aol.com>...
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
R.V. Gronoff wrote:
>
>
> [snipped for brevity]
>>
>
> Yes, but doesn't грешнаго sound more like grje'shnav@ ? At least, this
> is how it's pronounced by most Russian people who pronounce church
> slavonic like modern russian.
>
I can really only give a US perspective, since I am an American convert.
I was taught the Jesus Prayer in Slavonic by a native Russian speaker
(who also happened to be the Regent of the Cathedral choir) NOT to use
modern Russian pronunciation for Church Slavonic.
I'm not sure how it actually goes in practise. For one thing, I've been
attending a Serbian parish for the last 5 years, so, in my everyday
life, I find everybody pronouncing everything Serbian-style. And the
services switch back and forth between Slavonic, Serbian, and English.
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
a language that has "been prayed in" (i.e., is sanctified by its usage
by and in the Church), is to be preserved and learned by the faithful.
I've met quite a few Russians that are mortified by the idea of singing
the services in modern Russian.
In any case, if you are here in the USA, it's generally pretty easy to
find an English-speaking parish. If you don't want to go to a
Slavonic-services parish, don't.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>In 2003 is Church Slavonic like Church Greek and Latin few understand
>it no one speaks it just a method of maintaining control not
>communicaton or building understanding and furthering the Church?
>
The priest's job is to mumble, the more incomprehensibly the better.
If people really understood the Liturgy, they might start asking
questions. Can't have that.
After all, Orthodoxy is about being Greek, Russian, etc., and not
about being Christian. If Christianity hadn't come along, these
ethnicities would have found some other ethnically-affirming religion.
As Taras Bulba said (in the movie), "I'd rather kiss the Devil than
wear a Polish collar."
++
Gospodi, Iisuse Hriste, Sine Bozhe, Pomilui me /ne (me/us)
++
Alexander Arnakis wrote:
He was discussing Roman Catholicism
F Gerald
don't go to the Orthodox Church and some who do on occasion most put
off by the use of Slavonic. For some it keeps the sense of mystery
and distance going as well maintaining clerical control. Why should it
be important to understand the language in a service? Wasn't there a
heresy condemned that revolved around this issue? What is the growth
rate among Slavonic using parishes in the US, Europe and Russia?
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <hben...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<R84Oa.37382$bK5.7...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
Russian. What is the point in turning it into an attack on the use of
Church Slavonic? Seems like a real shame to me.
Anecdotal evidence is cheap. One can always come up with some in order
to buttress a point. You don't like Slavonic services. Fine. Go to an
Antiochian parish. Or a Greek parish. Or a Romanian parish. Somewhere
Slavonic isn't used, and you don't have to bother your head complaining
about it.
I know one thing Russians DO dislike--American converts coming up with
ways to change the Church.
Some of us like Slavonic services. And not for obscurantist purposes.
Nor for reasons of "clerical control"--whatever that means. May
I remind you that the Orthodox Church is, in fact, hierarchical?
Are you some kind of closet congregationalist, seeking to liberate the
Church from Prelacy?
If the use of Slavonic were an heresy, the Church would no longer be
using it.
Every Slavonic parish I've attended has experienced steady growth, both
from immigrants and converts. But that is anecdotal evidence.
Alexander Arnakis
>
>He was discussing Roman Catholicism
>
The thread had nothing to do with Roman Catholicism, other than a
passing reference to Latin as a means of clerical control. As we all
know, the Roman Church has largely abandoned Latin since the Vatican
II reforms.
As to Taras Bulba, you're right. The reason I mentioned Taras Bulba
was that Polish nationalism was expressed in Roman Catholicism, as
opposed to Bulba's Cossack/Russian nationalism, which was expressed in
Orthodoxy. In most of Eastern Europe, religion has been a marker for
ethnicity. That's why it doesn't matter if the priests are understood
or not -- perhaps it's better if the priests are *not* understood. If
people understand the Liturgy, they might question it, and thereby
begin to question their very identity.
vj...@biostrategist.com
<alexande...@verizon.net> on Mon, 07 Jul 2003 05:53:26 GMT we perused:
*+-After all, Orthodoxy is about being Greek, Russian, etc., and not
*+-about being Christian. If Christianity hadn't come along, these
It has been alleged (in private emails sent to me) that you
are Eframa bin Spyridon himself. It certainly would explain your
facility with "anonymisers" whatever that be.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
R.V. Gronoff
Alexander Arnakis a écrit:
> On 6 Jul 2003 05:29:25 -0700, nothan...@hotmail.com (F Gerald)
> wrote:
>
>
>>In 2003 is Church Slavonic like Church Greek and Latin few understand
>>it no one speaks it just a method of maintaining control not
>>communicaton or building understanding and furthering the Church?
>>
>
> The priest's job is to mumble, the more incomprehensibly the better.
> If people really understood the Liturgy, they might start asking
> questions. Can't have that.
>
> After all, Orthodoxy is about being Greek, Russian, etc., and not
> about being Christian. If Christianity hadn't come along, these
> ethnicities would have found some other ethnically-affirming religion.
>
It would be a very interesting question to ask who is not christian and
what it is, exactly, not to be christian.
Responses might be very surprizing, given that anybody who loves his
neighbour like himself loves God (the origin, the unending river of
life) and by this very love stands like a lamb on the altar of the true
Church of Jesus-Christ - even if he's a Jew, a Moslem or an atheist
communist.
++
I have met this person, years ago, and I met his father, a Byzantinist and
someone quite familiar with Ottoman history, as well (separate occasions) , when
he was still alive. He is not the former archbp. Spiridon
Alexander Arnakis
<regis.gronoff...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>
>It would be a very interesting question to ask who is not christian and
>what it is, exactly, not to be christian.
>Responses might be very surprizing, given that anybody who loves his
>neighbour like himself loves God (the origin, the unending river of
>life) and by this very love stands like a lamb on the altar of the true
>Church of Jesus-Christ - even if he's a Jew, a Moslem or an atheist
>communist.
>
the religion *of* Christ, not in the religion *about* Christ. And it's
been said that Communism is nothing but a Christian heresy.
You've summarized the basics of Christianity -- but apart from that,
Christianity, like every religion, has other agendas. We define
ourselves as adherents of a given religion so as to differentiate
ourselves from the "others" -- those who we conveniently get to look
down upon. Yes, we are the "saved," and the "others" are going to
damnation. We can smugly congratulate ourselves.
Alexander Arnakis
>
> It has been alleged (in private emails sent to me) that you
>are Eframa bin Spyridon himself. It certainly would explain your
>facility with "anonymisers" whatever that be.
>
Alexander Arnakis
>Dear Vasos,
>
>I have met this person, years ago,
You have? I kind of doubt it....
>and I met his father, a Byzantinist and
>someone quite familiar with Ottoman history, as well (separate occasions) , when
>he was still alive.
You did?
> He is not the former archbp. Spiridon
That's a relief to know.
++
R.V. Gronoff
Alexander Arnakis a écrit:
Remember about who Jesus calls "lambs" and who he calls "goats" ?
--
Merci d'enlever vos_chaussettes pour me répondre par mail.
Ma nouvelle afresse/My new adress: même nom/same name @ifrance.com
F Gerald
Christianity. Yep if in the US, West Europe or Australia go to a
Romania, Greek, or .... parish just learn an additional language
rather than using the language of the people - is Orthodoxy about
maintaining an ethnic identity or reaching out to the people?
I know another thing many Russians also DO dislike -- American
converts who are more Russian than thou.
Use of obsure languages only serves to keep people away not to embrace
- what is the origin and purpose of slavonic?
Heresy? - Remember the trilingual heresy what was that about?
The Slavonic parishes you visited how well did people understand the
Church Slavonic being used? Did the converts have to learn Slavonic to
convert?
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <hben...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<sFpOa.67714$ic1.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
> Nice - If you don't like it here go some where else nice version of
> Christianity. Yep if in the US, West Europe or Australia go to a
> Romania, Greek, or .... parish just learn an additional language
> rather than using the language of the people - is Orthodoxy about
> maintaining an ethnic identity or reaching out to the people?
Both of those are valid. Hence you have various parishes with various
languages. I can think of a number of parishes in driving distance
where I would probably never hear a word of Slavonic. Or Greek, Romanian
or Arabic, for that matter.
>
> I know another thing many Russians also DO dislike -- American
> converts who are more Russian than thou.
I don't claim to be more Russian than anybody else. I don't claim to be
Russian at all. I do try to maintain a respect for their culture and
traditions, and don go to their parished whining that they don't speak
English.
> Use of obsure languages only serves to keep people away not to embrace
> - what is the origin and purpose of slavonic?
Then, once again, go to an English speaking parish. Or do what many
ethnic parishes have done, and have mixed language services.
>
> Heresy? - Remember the trilingual heresy what was that about?
>
> The Slavonic parishes you visited how well did people understand the
> Church Slavonic being used?
Quite well for the most part. Certainly as well as us former Anglican
understood the 1928 BCP.
Did the converts have to learn Slavonic to
> convert?
No. But they were *ENRICHED* by learning it in 2 languages at once. We
DO have polyglot Prayer Books, you know.
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
glorified ONLY in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin.
No one that I know teaches that God can only be glorified in Church
Slavonic.
F Gerald
> The trilingual heresy, by the way, taught God could be properly
> glorified ONLY in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin.
>
> No one that I know teaches that God can only be glorified in Church
> Slavonic.
>
Not exactly - Trilingual heresy limited "preaching" of the Gospel to
three "sacred languages" – Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. It is a belief in
the superiority of the language, in a sense to make an idol of one
group's language at the expense of communication and understanding
among many.
Of course this did not involve Slavonic a method used by Cyril and
Methodius to communicate the message of salvation.
Now Slavonic is not used to communicate simply to preserve what has
been a museum piece rather than Orthodoxy as a dynamic living Church.
"If God sends sunlight, air and rain to all the peoples this is to
testify that God loves all people in the same way. Why do you think
then that God wants to be praised only in the languages of three
peoples?"
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
English?
F Gerald
> F Gerald wrote:
>
> > Nice - If you don't like it here go some where else nice version of
> > Christianity. Yep if in the US, West Europe or Australia go to a
> > Romania, Greek, or .... parish just learn an additional language
> > rather than using the language of the people - is Orthodoxy about
> > maintaining an ethnic identity or reaching out to the people?
>
> Both of those are valid. Hence you have various parishes with various
> languages. I can think of a number of parishes in driving distance
> where I would probably never hear a word of Slavonic. Or Greek, Romanian
> or Arabic, for that matter.
Multiple jurisdictions with multiple bishops in cities is not
canonical. One could drive around Frankfurt Germany area and attend
Orthodox services in a number of languages unless as I recall none are
in German. So you still say if you don't like it here - the language
is a stumbling block - go somewhere else we are here to maintain our
culture not to preach the word of God to convert the sinner to change
hearts.
> > I know another thing many Russians also DO dislike -- American
> > converts who are more Russian than thou.
>
> I don't claim to be more Russian than anybody else. I don't claim to be
> Russian at all. I do try to maintain a respect for their culture and
> traditions, and don go to their parished whining that they don't speak
> English.
Why personize this I was not discussing you. I don't go to *their*
parish whining either. Why would a Russian parish speak English
Russians speak Russian.
> > Use of obsure languages only serves to keep people away not to embrace
> > - what is the origin and purpose of slavonic?
>
> Then, once again, go to an English speaking parish. Or do what many
> ethnic parishes have done, and have mixed language services.
>
>
> > Heresy? - Remember the trilingual heresy what was that about?
>
See next post
>
> > The Slavonic parishes you visited how well did people understand the
> > Church Slavonic being used?
>
> Quite well for the most part. Certainly as well as us former Anglican
> understood the 1928 BCP.
>
> Did the converts have to learn Slavonic to
> > convert?
>
> No. But they were *ENRICHED* by learning it in 2 languages at once. We
> DO have polyglot Prayer Books, you know.
So the converts then learned Slavonic and followed along in a prayer
book that contained the English translation. As I am sure you are
aware hearing something in a language that is not native to you or one
that the individual has not truly mastered - a lot is missed.
EnsignRicki
> The trilingual heresy, by the way, taught God could be properly
> glorified ONLY in Hebrew, Greek, or Latin.
I'm curious. Why wasn't Aramaic included in this heresy?
++
F Gerald wrote:
> Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <hben...@nospam.cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<aQFQa.97831$ic1.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
> > F Gerald wrote:
> >
> > > Nice - If you don't like it here go some where else nice version of
> > > Christianity. Yep if in the US, West Europe or Australia go to a
> > > Romania, Greek, or .... parish just learn an additional language
> > > rather than using the language of the people - is Orthodoxy about
> > > maintaining an ethnic identity or reaching out to the people?
> >
> > Both of those are valid. Hence you have various parishes with various
> > languages. I can think of a number of parishes in driving distance
> > where I would probably never hear a word of Slavonic. Or Greek, Romanian
> > or Arabic, for that matter.
>
> Multiple jurisdictions with multiple bishops in cities is not
> canonical. One could drive around Frankfurt Germany area and attend
> Orthodox services in a number of languages unless as I recall none are
> in German.
Balderdash. I went to half slavonic half German services as far back as 30 years ago in Germany - charming little church in Kastel
F Gerald
> > Multiple jurisdictions with multiple bishops in cities is not
> > canonical. One could drive around Frankfurt Germany area and attend
> > Orthodox services in a number of languages unless as I recall none are
> > in German.
>
> Balderdash. I went to half slavonic half German services as far back as 30 years ago in Germany - charming little church in Kastel
I wrote Frankfurt not Kastel or Mainz Kastel... but the point was not
what is there in German was it? Perhaps things have changed in the 25
years since I left only been back for short visits.
F Gerald
themselves or were a great deal more humble :-)
As I recall those who used Aramaic by this time were Nestorian or
pseudo Nestorian and already separated.
"EnsignRicki" <ensig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kwRQa.966$KZ.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net>...
++
F Gerald wrote:
The churhc in Kastel is particularly charming. There are also churches in German language and slavonic around Frankfort. OR at least
there were.