Re: Coptic Church rejects court order on remarrying divorcees
veritas
"Serafim Tkachuk" <gentleo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142877381.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Does anyone know much the membership has really
> "dwindled"?
I lived in Stockholm , Sweden for some time in the 90's . There I befriended
a 26 yr old Coptic chap . I asked him about the status of the Church there .
I remember when there were 12 million Coptic Christians in Egypt in 90's. He
said that the Government has implemented Sharia law and is engaging
in a putsch against them by stealth , trying to make them emigrate to other
lands. Their status is officially second-class citizens.
There has been allot of Islamic terrorism directed against Copts . Their
Pope was even imprisoned by former President Anwar Saddat .
Admittedly , this is all anecdotal , but it makes sense .
Stephen Adams
>Does anyone know how to post messages from your email? Do I have to
>come on line to do that? Help!
Because of the rise of spam, there are very few mail-to-news gateways anymore,
and I'm unaware of any that are open to the public. Generally, you need to
do one of the following:
1. Post from Google or a similar web-based service
2. Obtain access to newsgroups from your Cable/DSL provider
3. Sign-up for an account with an newsgroup provider (e.g. supernews, newsguy)
If you do the first, you just use your web-browser. If you do the other two,
you can use any news reader software you like, including Outlook Express,
Thunderbird, FreeAgent, or any one of a whole host of newsreaders.
Many of the available newsreaders will let you download the messages for a
group and read them offline (ie while not connected to the internet). They
generally will allow you to compose replies offline as well.
One tip - when you respond to articles, it's traditional to include some of
the message you were responding to, as I've done in this one (and other messages
where I responded to you). It makes it easier to follow the conversation.
-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
malchu...@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
Joe Orthodox
> "olympiada" <lam...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Does anyone know how to post messages from your email? Do I have to
>> come on line to do that? Help!
>
> Because of the rise of spam, there are very few mail-to-news gateways anymore,
> and I'm unaware of any that are open to the public. Generally, you need to
> do one of the following:
>
> 1. Post from Google or a similar web-based service
> 2. Obtain access to newsgroups from your Cable/DSL provider
> 3. Sign-up for an account with an newsgroup provider (e.g. supernews, newsguy)
>
You're supposed to tell her, "No, it's not possible!", and leave it at that.
Bbd
Serafim Tkachuk wrote:
> I would not have thought that divorce would be enough to prompt someone
> to change religions. Does anyone know much the membership has really
> "dwindled"? Dwindling church memberships are popularly attributed to
> liberal teachings in Western churches, but here it seems to be the
> other way around with the conservative Coptic church.
>
Serafim,
I recall that there was controversy in Egypt a few years back because
of Coptic men who would convert to islam to obtain easy divorces, and
then convert right back to Coptic Christianity. Fundamentalist muslim
groups wanted the sharia penalty (i.e. death) for apostacy imposed in
such cases.
> http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=23034#
>
> Coptic Church rejects court order on remarrying divorcees.......
olympiada
I get the digest in my email box. When I respond from my email program
and when I forward messages and links, they do not post. Why not? I
asked Google as well.
In Christ
Olympiada
olympiada
I have been researching this morning. I don't get. I can't email
articles from Alternet. I can't forward articles from my inbox. What is
going on here?
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
It all depends on what you are using - is it Outlook Express?
olympiada
I have Entourage. I get the digest in my inbox. What do I need to do
to reply from my inbox? I belong to a newsgroup provider. This c... is
confusing!
Olympiada
olympiada
I am not interested in having communion with Egyptian Protestant
Fundamentalist Orthodox. I am a post modernist. I will maintain my
separation, thank you very much.
In Christ
Olympiada
olympiada
No, it is Entourage.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
Ah, you are a Mac user? Well, that moves you up several notches! :-)
You've emailed me directly, so I can respond there...
D. E. Evans
> Does anyone know how to post messages from your email? Do I have to
> come on line to do that? Help!
Perhaps under UUCP, but those days are mostly gone with NNTP and
TCP/IP.
--
D. E. Evans, a.k.a. Sinuhe
<URL:http://www.deevans.net>
D. E. Evans
> Fundamentalist Orthodox. I am a post modernist. I will maintain my
Post modern? That sounds Episcopalian...
olympiada
What is NNTP, and UUCP?!
O
olympiada
No I am a post modern youth parent. Ask my priest. And a San Franciscan
for most of my life. That is who I am. And a woman. I am no
Episcopalian. Never have been. Never will be.
What are you?
O
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>olympiada <lam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Fundamentalist Orthodox. I am a post modernist. I will maintain my
>
>Post modern? That sounds Episcopalian...
In what way?
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
D. E. Evans
> Episcopalian. Never have been. Never will be.
> What are you?
An Anglican looking carefully at the Orthodox in case my church
successfully, and finally, morally implodes.
Please elaborate on what you mean by post modern.
P.S. I believe one of the ecumenical councils made the decision to
restrict bishops to celibacy.
veritas
"D. E. Evans" <sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote in message
news:dvte87$t28$2...@news.xmission.com...
> olympiada <lam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Episcopalian. Never have been. Never will be.
>> What are you?
>
> An Anglican looking carefully at the Orthodox in case my church
Hi ! Welcome . Do you live in Salt Lake City ? If so you can visit the
Church of the Holy Trinity -- the Orthodox Church . Its right there next to
the Mormon Temple.
Maybe you have done so already ?
Best ,
veritas
Olympiada
I mean the culture I grew up in San Francisco is post modern, therefore
I am post modern. Now why are we discussing the celibacy of bishops in
regards to remarrying divorcees?
--
Sent via Christian Usenet
http://www.christianusenet.com
D. E. Evans
> I mean the culture I grew up in San Francisco is post modern, therefore
> I am post modern. Now why are we discussing the celibacy of bishops in
This sounds like Christians I know that were raised in a
Christian country, therefore they are Christian, even though they
never go to church, and really don't believe that said Joshua the
Galilean, a Roman criminal, came back--physically--from the dead.
Why call yourself postmodern, if you are not even aware of what
it really is, outside of your relating it to some vague cultural
fashion?
> regards to remarrying divorcees?
It doesn't relate directly, hence the postscript, but comments
on other threads you have participated in. If it's that big of a
problem, I can dig to find one of your comments on married bishops
to give you the same response, sans the postscript...
D. E. Evans
> Hi ! Welcome . Do you live in Salt Lake City ? If so you can visit the
> Church of the Holy Trinity -- the Orthodox Church . Its right there next to
> the Mormon Temple.
>
> Maybe you have done so already ?
I'd love to respond to you, but your email address is forged.
I'd be willing to respond in private.
veritas
That's why I have this bogus email . I'd love to put my real one though ,
but I think it has risks.
I'll try and find your email and post you mine .
Cheers ,
veritas
"D. E. Evans" <sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote in message
news:dvupk8$ood$1...@news.xmission.com...
Olympiada
>
>Why call yourself postmodern, if you are not even aware of what
>it really is, outside of your relating it to some vague cultural
>fashion?
>
>> regards to remarrying divorcees?
>
>It doesn't relate directly, hence the postscript, but comments
>on other threads you have participated in. If it's that big of a
>problem, I can dig to find one of your comments on married bishops
>to give you the same response, sans the postscript...
>--
>D. E. Evans, a.k.a. Sinuhe
><URL:http://www.deevans.net>
I call myself postmodern because my priest calls me postmodern and I AM
postmodern. Ok? And my bishop even has some postmodern tendencies. Why
are you criticizing me and you are not an Orthodox?
What response? I see a connection between divorcees and married bishops,
but that is my sight, not yours, right?
Olympiada
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>Olympiada <orthodo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I mean the culture I grew up in San Francisco is post modern, therefore
>> I am post modern. Now why are we discussing the celibacy of bishops in
>
>This sounds like Christians I know that were raised in a
>Christian country, therefore they are Christian, even though they
>never go to church, and really don't believe that said Joshua the
>Galilean, a Roman criminal, came back--physically--from the dead.
>
>Why call yourself postmodern, if you are not even aware of what
>it really is, outside of your relating it to some vague cultural
>fashion?
I ask again: what do you mean by "postmodern"?
In what way to you see the Episcopal Church as "postmodern" (and do you apply
that to the whole Anglican Communion, or just Ecusa?
What do you see as the characteristics of postmodernity?
I ask this because I've heard Anglicans say that the trouble with the Orthodox
Church is that it never experienced the Enlightenment.
One could go further and say that the Orthodox Church never experienced those
other two pillars of modernity, the Renaissance and Reformation, though not
for want of trying on the part of such modernisers as Peter the Great.
In manyways, therefore, the Orthodox Church remains fundamentally premodern,
while the Anglican Church was born in and with modernity.
The urge for married bishops and the like is fundamentally a desire for
modernity, a desire to fit the Orthodox Church to an age that is passing. But
if Orthodoxy remains faithful to its tradition, it might well be better
equipped to evangelise a postmodern world than Ecusa.
olympiada
I disagree. I think the urge for married bishops is an urge for a more
ancient Church. Bishops were married in the early Church. A married
episcopate is no innovation. But it is idle talk for the laity. It is
irrelevant to us. As my bishop said, if the Holy Synod wants to elevate
a married priest to the episcopate, it will do so. I urge you to seek
out his writings on the Orthodox Christianity list on this subject.
Again, it is idle for the laity to discuss the celibacy or marriage of
the episcopate. I am saying that to myself since I am a laywoman.
In Christ
Olympiada
Steve Hayes
I didn't say that married bishops were an innovation. I said that the *urge*
for them is a symptom of a desire for modernity.
D. E. Evans
> I ask again: what do you mean by "postmodern"?
I refer to the philosophical reaction to modernism, both an
epistymological position against the objective (if I may
oversimplify), and an aesthetic position extending from that.
The metaphysical foundations of post-modernism seem very much in
disarray, but perhaps that is what is intended.
> In what way to you see the Episcopal Church as "postmodern" (and do you apply
> that to the whole Anglican Communion, or just Ecusa?
Portions of the PECUSA. I'm not seeing this in significant
circles in the CofE or Church in Wales. I don't know about
other parts of the communion, though New Zealand might be post
modern in some respects.
> In manyways, therefore, the Orthodox Church remains fundamentally premodern,
> while the Anglican Church was born in and with modernity.
>
> The urge for married bishops and the like is fundamentally a desire for
> modernity, a desire to fit the Orthodox Church to an age that is passing. But
> if Orthodoxy remains faithful to its tradition, it might well be better
> equipped to evangelise a postmodern world than Ecusa.
This seems a fair analysis.
olympiada
I could use your input on an ecumenical liturgy list where they are
discussing the theology of deacons. Are you interested? There is
another Orthodox missionary on the list as well, serving in Africa.
I disagree that the "urge" for married bishops is a symptom of desire
for modernity. I think it is just the opposite. A symptom of a desire
to restore the Church to it's Biblical standpoint. Bishops were married
in the Bible. That is the OPPOSITE of modern. Why don't you invite my
bishop to this discussion? Let's hear his point of view. Or Harry Coin,
who is infamous for wanting a married episcopate. Let's hear his point
of view.
In Christ
Olympiada
D. E. Evans
>> modernity, a desire to fit the Orthodox Church to an age that is passing. But
>> if Orthodoxy remains faithful to its tradition, it might well be better
>> equipped to evangelise a postmodern world than Ecusa.
>
> This seems a fair analysis.
Let me clarify: Orthodoxy might be better equipped to evangelize
due to what you refer to as its pre-modern tradition. However,
regarding married bishops, I've never understood that the
restriction in the councils against bishops marrying was intended
to be permanent. This seems to me a distinction of discipline,
not dogma. The dogma is what is scriptural: a bishop shall not
have more than one wife. It is also scriptural to hear from Paul
suggesting that celibacy is still preferred, (interpret for
bishops).
veritas
"D. E. Evans" <sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote in message
news:e017jm$d2c$2...@news.xmission.com...
The Orthodox Church , especially that under the direct jurisdiction of the
Ecumenical Patriarchate
is staunchly conservative. More so than the Roman Catholic Church . There
won't be such reforms
in decades or even centuries to come.
As far as the Orthodox Church "missing out " on social movements due to its
occupation by muslims;
I propose that the Renaissance originated from Constantinople in the late
1300's . As far as the
Reformation goes , well aren't we better off if it had not happened ? And
the Enlightenment , well
allot of the ideas of Voltaire , Descartes ,French Revolution were spread to
Greece through
revolutionaries like Constantine Rigas ( Feraios or Valenstinlis ) and they
infused the church through
nationalism in the 19 th Century . In Russia and other eastern European
countries Marxism played a
role in carrying some of these ideas too , but only some.These have all
affected the Orthodox Church , whether
some like to admit it or not in this post-commnist age....
Just some observations...
Steve Hayes
>Deacon Stephen
>I could use your input on an ecumenical liturgy list where they are
>discussing the theology of deacons. Are you interested? There is
>another Orthodox missionary on the list as well, serving in Africa.
Possibly.. tell me more.
Can I interest you in an Orthodox mission list?
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthmiss/
>I disagree that the "urge" for married bishops is a symptom of desire
>for modernity. I think it is just the opposite. A symptom of a desire
>to restore the Church to it's Biblical standpoint. Bishops were married
>in the Bible. That is the OPPOSITE of modern. Why don't you invite my
>bishop to this discussion? Let's hear his point of view. Or Harry Coin,
>who is infamous for wanting a married episcopate. Let's hear his point
>of view.
I know Harry Coin. I've met him... but I'm not particularly interested in
discussing a married episcopate. I am, however, interested in discussing
modernity, premodernity and postmodernity.
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I ask again: what do you mean by "postmodern"?
>
>I refer to the philosophical reaction to modernism, both an
>epistymological position against the objective (if I may
>oversimplify), and an aesthetic position extending from that.
>The metaphysical foundations of post-modernism seem very much in
>disarray, but perhaps that is what is intended.
Ok, though I would distinguish between modernism and modernity.
>
>> In what way to you see the Episcopal Church as "postmodern" (and do you apply
>> that to the whole Anglican Communion, or just Ecusa?
>
>Portions of the PECUSA. I'm not seeing this in significant
>circles in the CofE or Church in Wales. I don't know about
>other parts of the communion, though New Zealand might be post
>modern in some respects.
Could you give some examples -- how does this manifest itself?
>> In manyways, therefore, the Orthodox Church remains fundamentally premodern,
>> while the Anglican Church was born in and with modernity.
olympiada
I am an ill unemployed single mother going through a divorce. What do I
have to do with missions? However here is the liturgy link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
and the blurb:
We always welcome new members, and request that they send a brief
self-introduction to the list-owner address at the bottom of this page
when requesting membership. liturgy-l is a interdenominational forum
for the discussion of issues relevant to the study and planning of
Christian worship. We welcome participation from members of all
denominations. The activities of this list range from informal
conversation to formal meeting; each contribution to the ongoing
discussion should be considered more a letter than a part of a chat. We
encourage discussion across a broad spectrum of ecclesiastical and
liturgical opinion and actively discourage the use of this list as a
forum for liturgical warfare, denominational posturing, or other
similar activities. We also discourage the use of the list for
primarily commercial purposes or fundraising."
Would you be willing to ask Harry why he wants a married episcopate? I
have only heard of his ideology from my bishop. They do not get along.
Harry does not like me either. Would you be willing to ask him to
Nicholas's thread?
In Christ
The unworthy handmaiden
Olympiada
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
I would like to make a distinction between reasons for having or not having
married bishops, and reasons for *wanting* to have married bishops. It is the
latter, rather than the former, that can be a symptom of modernity, if not of
modernism. They are similar to reasons for wanting to have pews and
cleanshaven clergy -- they are things that make the church look less
counter-cultural in the modern age, and so to modernisers beards and
long-haired monks are an embarrassment.
Steve Hayes
Right, but what do these observations signify for the Church?
How have they affected the Church, and the way in which it operates in the
world?
How do they help or hinder the Church's mission?
Steve Hayes
>Deacon Stephen
>I am an ill unemployed single mother going through a divorce. What do I
>have to do with missions? However here is the liturgy link:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
Thanks very much, I've asked to join.
>Would you be willing to ask Harry why he wants a married episcopate? I
>have only heard of his ideology from my bishop. They do not get along.
>Harry does not like me either. Would you be willing to ask him to
>Nicholas's thread?
I haven't been in touch with him for a while -- I met him on the "Indiana"
list, and then met him at a mission conference in Boston 10 years ago, and I'm
not sure if I still have the right e-mail address for him.
I haven't taken part in the married episcopate thread here -- haven't even
downloaded it, to be honest. It's really not something that interests me very
much.
About 30 years ago an Anglican priest friend of mine (who subsequently became
an Anglican bishop, and is now retiured) wrote to me, and said "what we need
in our day is not more good men, but more holy men". I found that very
significant at the time, and still do.
What the church needs is not married bishops, but holy bishops -- men who
"speak with authority and not as the scribes."
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Deacon Stephen
>I am an ill unemployed single mother going through a divorce.
Then what are you doing wasting your time on the Internet? You should
be concentrating your energies on getting a (better) job, or preparing
yourself for one through education.
olympiada
The church has holy bishops. Do you want Harry's email address?
Olympiada
olympiada
What are you doing judging me? I am ill. I am applying for work. I can
not afford to pay for education. I am not wasting my time. I am going
through a divorce. I am Orthodox. What are you doing on this thread?
Olympiada
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
Then it seems I might have misread your post. It appeared to say that
you were ill-unemployed, that is, badly unemployed. I'm sorry you're
ill. Nevertheless, I doubt that this newsgroup is doing you any good.
Possibly it might make your illness worse, by upsetting you.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Deacon Stephen
>The church has holy bishops. Do you want Harry's email address?
>Olympiada
Oh you poor deluded woman. No hierarch is "holy." Mostly, it's quite
the opposite.
olympiada
I am ill and unemployed and this newsgroup is keeping my creative fire
alive. Are you a medical doctor by any chance? Just curious.
By the way, I do not easily upset.
Good night.
Olympiada
olympiada
Ah poor I am but deluded, I think not. And you are right, I am not one
to say who is holy and who is not. But I am, however, ***quite***
devoted to ***my*** hierarch, and everyone knows this. Are you devoted
to yours?
Are you the same Alexander who was hounding me on the Re-Forum before I
left? Are you Greek? Shall I block your email?
Olympiada
Steve Hayes
wrote:
And who are you to prescribe to other people what they should be doing?
--
Terms and conditions apply.
Steve Hayes
haye...@yahoo.com
veritas
"olympiada" <lam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1143268470.5...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Allot of us are going ( or have gone ) exactly what you are going through .
Hang in there ; there is light at the end of the tunnel , you can be sure of
that . Believe in yourself and in God and all will be fine for you and your
child .
You made the right decision to come to this newsgroup .
Have a pleasant evening Olympiada of San Francisco :)
veritas
a personal story
http://diaryfromsydney.blogspot.com/
vo...@lycos.com
Olympiada appears to be "orthodox buddha", "maria skobstova", "tikhon's
sheep" in a latest reincarnation...
vo...@lycos.com
Olympiada appears to be "orthodox buddha", "maria skobstova", "tikhon's
sheep" in a latest reincarnation...
> veritas
olympiada
Been through clinical depression?! Well thank you for the
encouragement. I ***hate*** what I going through.
Olympiada
olympiada
No, those are my other yahoo profiles. I am Olympiada. The other one's
were Trojan Horses. I can be real on this group. I am not afraid, like
you.
Olympiada
olympiada
I did not come here looking for advice. Please do not advise me. I am
going through a divorce. Please keep the discussion focused on the
thread. Thank you.
Olympiada
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Alexander,
To answer your questions: I've never "hounded" you because I've never
heard of the "Re-Forum," and, until you started posting here, I'd
never heard of you. Yes, I'm Greek (can't you tell by the name?). By
all means block my email. And obviously, I'm not "devoted" to any
hierarch. I'm no longer even Orthodox.
veritas
I was separated in California barely 6 months ago -- I felt awful . Now I
live in Sydney Australia , mainly for my health .Yes I did have some
depression following my chief neurological complaint but it subsided. Don't
forget that 20 % of all Americans at some point in their life will get Major
Depression , which probably doesn't make you feel good I know . But the
SSRI's are pretty effective coupled with cognitive behavior therapy ( which
is very expensive in the US I know) . I thought of going to a support group
for separated women or men...But supporting yourself and talking things
through with close family and friends is the best treatment for what we have
and are going through.
Just my experience
All this is off topic -- so my apologies to the purists.
Steve Hayes
>All this is off topic -- so my apologies to the purists.
The day that comforting the afflicted is off-topic in an Orthodox forum is the
day that the forum ceases to be Orthodox.
Steve Hayes
I've given you no advice at all. I invited you to join a mission discussion
forum, that's all.
olympiada
Fine, you reminded me of someone on another Forum. Why are you here if
you are no longer Orthodox?
Olympiada
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
Anyway, my background is Orthodox, and I'm still trying to come to
terms with why I don't belong in the Church. I came to the conclusion
a long time ago that it's not enough to just inherit a set of beliefs;
these beliefs must be re-examined from first principles if they are to
have real meaning and significance.
vo...@lycos.com
On 26 Mar 2006 06:57:59 -0800, "olympiada" <lamp...@earthlink.net>
--- This same poster asked you the same question under one of her/his
former names on this list...
olympiada
You are not even Orthodox. Are you my hound dog or something? I want to
know what Alexander's agenda is. What's your agenda, v? At least
Alexander uses his name.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Deacon Stephen
>I disagree. I think the urge for married bishops is an urge for a more
>ancient Church. Bishops were married in the early Church. A married
>episcopate is no innovation. But it is idle talk for the laity. It is
>irrelevant to us. As my bishop said, if the Holy Synod wants to elevate
>a married priest to the episcopate, it will do so. I urge you to seek
>out his writings on the Orthodox Christianity list on this subject.
>Again, it is idle for the laity to discuss the celibacy or marriage of
>the episcopate. I am saying that to myself since I am a laywoman.
No, it's not. We are not Roman Catholics - we do not believe that the bishops
alone are the repository of the faith. The entire Church, the laity together
with the bishops, are custodians of the tradition once delivered to the saints.
We may discuss these matters and encourage our bishops to take steps we think
are necessary. When the bishops and the laity are in one accord, and are following
the teachings of the Church, THEN we have true tradition....
-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
malchu...@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
Stephen Adams
>D,
>What is NNTP, and UUCP?!
Olympiada - did you receive the email I sent you about the newsreader software?
NNTP - Network News Transport Protocol
UUCP - Unix to Unix Copy
UUCP was what computers used to move mail and news around before the Internet...
If you know where to look, you can find some posts from me that have UUCP-style
addressing from about 17 years ago! :-)
olympiada
It is not my job to encourage my bishop, it is my job to obey him.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Subdeacon Stephen
>It is not my job to encourage my bishop, it is my job to obey him.
No maam, BOTH of those things are your job. There must be synergy between
the clergy and the bishops. We obey them, yes, but we also encourage them
and aide them - and occasionally, when necessary, correct them.
olympiada
You are right, it is my job to encourage him, but not because he is my
bishop.
Olympiada
D. E. Evans
> On 26 Mar 2006 06:57:59 -0800, "olympiada" <lam...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Good Morning Alexander
>>Fine, you reminded me of someone on another Forum. Why are you here if
>>you are no longer Orthodox?
>>Olympiada
>
> This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
I completely agree. olympiada has on several occasions said that
non-Orthodox should not be posting or replying on this list. Is
she saying to me, an Anglican, that I am not welcome here, to
investigate or inquire into orthodoxy?
> a long time ago that it's not enough to just inherit a set of beliefs;
> these beliefs must be re-examined from first principles if they are to
> have real meaning and significance.
Agreed.
--
D. E. Evans, a.k.a. Sinuhe
<URL:http://www.deevans.net>
olympiada
Do not talk to me in the third person. I am saying you are not welcome
to correct the Orthodox, that is all.
O
David Goode
>
> Do not talk to me in the third person. I am saying you are not welcome to
> correct the Orthodox, that is all.
Not in your mind, maybe, but this is Usenet, love.
Dave
--
Faculty of Divinity, University of Cambridge, West Road, Cambridge, CB3 9BS
http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~djg39/ [Dave's University home page]
http://www.food-in-due-season.info/ [Dave's first book, published May 2005]
http://www.living-bread.info/ [Dave's next book, published February 2006]
Stephen Adams
>Do not talk to me in the third person. I am saying you are not welcome
>to correct the Orthodox, that is all.
Why not? With no disrespect to our inquiring friends, if God can speak
through Balaam's donkey, he can certainly speak through us sinners, be
we Orthodox or not. In fact, except for very rare instances, God ONLY
uses sinners to convey his message.
Error should be confronted. If it's an inquirer or catechumen, and they
speak the truth, who are YOU to silence them????
Olympiada, your posts reflect a lack of true Christian love and true Orthodox
theology. Perhaps you should spend more time with a priest or bishop teaching
you and less on the internet!
Stephen Adams
>Alexander Arnakis <inv...@address.none> wrote:
>> On 26 Mar 2006 06:57:59 -0800, "olympiada" <lam...@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Good Morning Alexander
>>>Fine, you reminded me of someone on another Forum. Why are you here if
>>>you are no longer Orthodox?
>>>Olympiada
>>
>> This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
>
>I completely agree. olympiada has on several occasions said that
>non-Orthodox should not be posting or replying on this list. Is
>she saying to me, an Anglican, that I am not welcome here, to
>investigate or inquire into orthodoxy?
It would appear so. And there are, unfortunately, several others who
have this same opinion. In fact, there are even some who reject the
idea of converts at all, and tell us to all go back to our old churches.
:-(
Don't listen to them. You are welcome here, and welcome to post, and
we'll do our best to answer your questions.
olympiada
You have no authority to correct me. I do not care if you are a
professor. If you are not a member of the faithful, your knowledge is
just academic and it pays the bills. Thank God for your privilege and
leave me the h... alone.
In Christ
Olympiada
olympiada
Perhaps you should silence yourself. You have no idea of the
relationship to my priest ***or*** my bishop. Write to my bishop and
ask him. Stop libeling me. Leave me alone. Go lead and provide for your
own wife. Let me suffer on my own.
In Christ
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Subdeacon Stephen
>Perhaps you should silence yourself.
This is an open public forum. You come here and make all kinds of rash
statements, then object when people correct you or reject what you have
to say. Sorry, but if you post in a public forum, you have to deal with
the consequences.
>You have no idea of the
>relationship to my priest ***or*** my bishop.
I suggest then, that you go back to them, for if what you have posted here
is representative of what you think Orthodoxy is, you have either not
understood what you are being taught, or are being taught incorrectly.
>Write to my bishop and ask him.
That's between you and your bishop.
>Stop libeling me. Leave me alone.
Well, to be blunt, we were here first. You come to this group, which is
your free choice, you have to deal with it as it exists. You do NOT get
to dictate the rules, nor say who can or cannot respond to any post,
including your own.
>Go lead and provide for your own wife. Let me suffer on my own.
Orthodoxy is about co-suffering love. I guess you missed that in your
extensive time with your priest and bishop.
It's your call - you can keep posting, and we WILL respond to you, or you
can stop posting. Those are your two choices. There isn't another.
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>> This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
>
>I completely agree. olympiada has on several occasions said that
>non-Orthodox should not be posting or replying on this list. Is
>she saying to me, an Anglican, that I am not welcome here, to
>investigate or inquire into orthodoxy?
No doubt she can explain what she is saying, and I won't presume to try and
interpret it, but as far as I am concerned, and I'm sure many others, you are
welcome here to enquire as much as you like. If you ask anything I'm able to
answer, I'll try to do so.
Steve Hayes
<sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>> This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
>
>I completely agree. olympiada has on several occasions said that
>non-Orthodox should not be posting or replying on this list. Is
>she saying to me, an Anglican, that I am not welcome here, to
>investigate or inquire into orthodoxy?
No doubt she can explain what she is saying, and I won't presume to try and
veritas
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:997j22tooj5g2vmhs...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:15:18 +0000 (UTC), "D. E. Evans"
> <sin...@kaptah.deevans.net> wrote:
>
>>> This forum is *about* Orthodoxy, not just *by* and *for* Orthodox.
>>
>>I completely agree. olympiada has on several occasions said that
>>non-Orthodox should not be posting or replying on this list. Is
>>she saying to me, an Anglican, that I am not welcome here, to
>>investigate or inquire into orthodoxy?
>
> No doubt she can explain what she is saying, and I won't presume to try
> and
> interpret it, but as far as I am concerned, and I'm sure many others, you
> are
> welcome here to enquire as much as you like. If you ask anything I'm able
> to
> answer, I'll try to do so.
Here Here ( British Parliamntary yes yes ) . I agree . Well said .
====> I'll try and reply to your 3 questions in this thread about social
movements
and the Orthodox Church . I am finding it quite complex as the Russian
Chucrh for example is different
to the African Church is its social experiences. I'll try and post it by
this weekend.
Cheers
veritas
D. E. Evans
> It would appear so. And there are, unfortunately, several others who
> have this same opinion. In fact, there are even some who reject the
> idea of converts at all, and tell us to all go back to our old churches.
> :-(
It would seem that having the market on the truth, if you will,
doesn't necessarily mean doing a good job following it. It
reminds me of a story in Tolkien's biography about his wife,
who he insisted should attend RC with him. After several years,
she returned to her CofE parish, because it was much friendlier
and caring.
> Don't listen to them. You are welcome here, and welcome to post, and
> we'll do our best to answer your questions.
I appreciate that, thank you.
Steve Hayes
>Deacon Stephen
>I did not come here looking for advice. Please do not advise me. I am
>going through a divorce. Please keep the discussion focused on the
>thread. Thank you.
>Olympiada
I am not sure what prompted this comment, as up till now I have given you no
advice at all, and I never thought you came here looking for advice.
I did invite you to join a discussion forum on Orthodox mission, but I don't
think that qualifies as "advice".
And at your invitation I joined an ecumenical forum on liturgy, but I don't
think that qualifies as "advice" either. I haven't seen much discussion on
deacons there.
But this post of yours (the one I am reaponding to) and several other
subsequent ones from you suggest that, if you didn't come here looking for
advice, you certainly came here looking for a quarrel.
You have been trying to pick a fight with everyone in this newsgroup, over
anything and nothing.
So now I DO have a piece of advice for you: go and do your trolling elsewhere.
And a piece of advice for other participants in this newsgroup: Avoid
quarrelsome persons.
--
Terms and conditions apply.
Steve Hayes
haye...@yahoo.com
olympiada
I came here to defend my bishop. I asked him to join. He thinks this
group is pornographic and licentious. Actually I came here to defend my
church, and ended up defending my bishop as well. That is why I am
here, to defend my church and my bishop, until he joins.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Deacon Stephen
Subdeacon.
>I came here to defend my bishop.
Fine. But given what you have posted, you have not done so.
>I asked him to join. He thinks this group is pornographic and licentious.
Well, those aren't the words I would use, but I don't think this group is
sweetness and light, either.
>Actually I came here to defend my church, and ended up defending my bishop
>as well. That is why I am here, to defend my church and my bishop,
Defend your church? You haven't done this in any meaningful way. The scandal
is public and there is no way to put that genie back in the bottle.
>until he joins.
It would be better if he ceased posting to the internet than add another
group.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Deacon Stephen
Good lord! In a way, I hope he starts posting to this newsgroup. That
way, a bunch of us can delight in jumping all over him! (Needless to
say, it wouldn't be advisable for him to do so.)
This group is "pornographic"? Gimme a break! Whoever said that doesn't
know squat about real pornography.
Who are you, to be a self-appointed defender of your church and
bishop? Judging from the results so far, your efforts have been, at
best, counterproductive. Are you sure you aren't an agent provocateur?
olympiada
Please leave my bishop alone.
Olympiada
Steve Hayes
I don't even know who your bishop is.
Stephen Adams
>Please leave my bishop alone.
+TIKHON has placed himself squarely in the targets. And NOONE is above criticism.
If a Bishop errs, it is the duty of the laity to note this, and respond as is proper.
olympiada
Fine. Why not criticize him to his face. This is cowardly.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Fine. Why not criticize him to his face. This is cowardly.
Hardly. He is free to respond here. It's a public group. But I wouldn't advise it.
I have communicated directly with +TIKHON in the past. He knows how to contact me
if he wishes to say something to me.
olympiada
Fine than you are the agent provocateur or however you spell that,
writing libel about a bishop out here in public cyberspace.
If the bishop has nothing to say to you, why do you continue to talk
about him?
And what does the coptic church rejecting court ordered divorce have to
do with the bishop?!
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>Fine than you are the agent provocateur or however you spell that,
>writing libel about a bishop out here in public cyberspace.
Show me ONE libelous thing I have written about +TIKHON. On the contrary, you
will find that I have asked people to treat him with respect. But that respect
does NOT include ignoring the clearly un-bishoplike things he writes to the net.
>If the bishop has nothing to say to you, why do you continue to talk
>about him?
I never said he had nothing to say to me. On the contrary, I said he knows how to
get in touch if he wishes to correct anything I have written. But I do not believe
I have inaccurately categorized his behavior as not reflecting well on the church.
>And what does the coptic church rejecting court ordered divorce have to
>do with the bishop?!
I didn't raise that issue at all. You are confused.
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>Alexander
>I am sorry. I am going through a divorce and dealing with depression,
>but I do mean to defend my church and my bishop.
>The words I have read in this group tonight have made me weep. Why do
>you attack my bishop?
>Olympiada
I don't know your bishop from Adam, so why would I want to attack him
personally? I'm against *all* bishops and *all* clerics, generically
and institutionally. I'm sure some of them are wise and decent human
beings. Unfortunately, they're caught up in a rotten system.
olympiada
What has Bishop Tikhon written that is not like a Bishop? Is he not a
Bishop? Is not what he writes the writing of a Bishop?
This thread is about The Coptic Church rejecting Court Ordered Divorce.
What does Bishop Tikhon have to do with that?
Nothing.
Why are we writing about Bishop Tikhon?
It is idle chatter.
Olympiada
Stephen Adams
>What has Bishop Tikhon written that is not like a Bishop? Is he not a
>Bishop? Is not what he writes the writing of a Bishop?
Nice parsing of words. By your logic, If he committed a murder, he
would be acting like a bishop because he did it as a bishop!!!
His behavior is not in line with the Scriptures and the traditions of
the church. Here is a good example of intemperate writing:
Commending all to Christ's love,
+Tikhon, The Bishop of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the West; The
Orthodox Church in America
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservative." (John Stuart Mill)
While I am not a conservative, I personally know a number of his flock
who are. I know several at the Cathedral on Green St. (where I have
visited many times). Is it right for him to call those who disagree
with his political views stupid? For that is what he is doing.
>This thread is about The Coptic Church rejecting Court Ordered Divorce.
I changed the subject for you. Happy?
>What does Bishop Tikhon have to do with that?
You raised his name in this thread, or referred to him by your
use of 'my bishop.' It's your own fault.
>Why are we writing about Bishop Tikhon?
I am answering your bad theology and nattering postings.
>It is idle chatter.
Physician, heal thyself.
Stephen Adams
>I made a mistake by raising his name. Why did I raise it? He is
>probably on my mind because I am going through a divorce and he is
>opposed to divorce. So I am in agony because I am doing something that
>he does not condone and I am doing it anyways.
Sin is like that. And divorce is always sin, even when done for
'good' reasons. It is sin because it breaks a union between a
man and a womnan, one that is ordained by God for life. Because
of our weakness, our bishops do permit remarriage after divorce,
but this is not condoning it. I am glad to hear that +TIKHON does
not condone divorce (I would have been surprised to hear that he
does).
>Now I have two bishops.
Each parish has one bishop. If there is an 'auxilliary' bishop, that is
not canonical - we are not supposed to have two bishops in one see. It
may be that such a thing exists, but that doesn't make it rigt.
Or are you trying to be a 'member' of two parishes? That's not proper,
either.
>And I have spoken to my other bishop about this and it is ok. However,
>I have not spoken to my first bishop about this only read his writing
>on divorce and it is in scathing opposition to it. So how do you think
>I feel?
>Simply awful.
To be blunt, this is how you should feel. Even if the divorce is 'justified'
by abuse.
>So pray for me a sinner.
I will.
>And stop libeling me in Orthodox Reforum.
Reporting your behavior here truthfully is not libel.
>That is scandalous.
You set yourself in the public eye by posting here and in other fora.
You ahve only yourself to blame for your Internet-wide bad reputation.
>I read what you wrote, what all of you wrote. I am shocked, horrified
>and disgusted. None of it is true. Absolutely none of it. I left that
>group out of obedience to an Archimandrite.
How many people are you 'in obedience' to here? You shoud have one
spiritual father, usually your parish priest, unless he or your bishop
assigns another for you. This spriritual father should be your
confessor as well, and it is only THAT person you should be in
obedience to (and your bishop, of course!)
>I am disturbed by Al Green's writing.
So, killfile him. It's simple. A lot of people here have done it.
>I emailed you about the Reforum.
>I request a response.
Alreeady sent. Tonight was the Akathist service.