Chrysostom, Against the circuses and the theatre

[leushino]

"On that very day, when it was necessary to fast and give glory, and to raise prayers of thanksgiving for the good things in the world to the one who created them, instead you left the church and the spiritual eucharist, and the assembly of the brothers, and the solemnity of the fast, and as a prisoner of the devil were you dragged off to that spectacle? Can this be tolerated? Can this be accepted?"

[pyotr filipivich]

leushino <canadagoo...@gmail.com> on Mon, 2 Feb 2015 06:48:18
-0800 (PST) typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
following:

>"On that very day, when it was necessary to fast and give glory, and to raise prayers of thanksgiving for the good things in the world to the one who created them, instead you left the church and the spiritual eucharist, and the assembly of the brothers, and the solemnity of the fast, and as a prisoner of the devil were you dragged off to that spectacle? Can this be tolerated? Can this be accepted?"

A good question.

Even if Father managed to figure out how to wear blue and green
vestments yesterday. B-)
--
pyotr
After the war two Army Chaplains were mustering out. The one said to
the other "Chaplain, it has been a real pleasure serving God with you.
You in your way, and I in His."

[nickk - not the imposter]

What you must understand about this is that directly across the street from Agia Sophia, was the entrance to the cities circus, coliseum, entertainment arena. The Emperor encouraged this entertainment for the masses to keep their minds off rebellion and general descent. While the Divine Liturgy was going on, many times the "circus" was going full blast. Not only discouraging people from attending the Divine Liturgy, but getting drunk and quite loud. The Emperess may have encouraged this as a way to get back at Chrysostom, but St. John railed against these circus "on goings" in his sermons. It wasn't that St. John was against entertainment for the people, but the circus was a place of debauchery, where women of ill-repute roamed and all sorts of sins prevailed.

[leushino]

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 8:33:07 AM UTC-8, nickk - not the imposter wrote:
> What you must understand about this is that directly across the street from Agia Sophia, was the entrance to the cities circus, coliseum, entertainment arena. The Emperor encouraged this entertainment for the masses to keep their minds off rebellion and general descent. While the Divine Liturgy was going on, many times the "circus" was going full blast. Not only discouraging people from attending the Divine Liturgy, but getting drunk and quite loud. The Emperess may have encouraged this as a way to get back at Chrysostom, but St. John railed against these circus "on goings" in his sermons. It wasn't that St. John was against entertainment for the people, but the circus was a place of debauchery, where women of ill-repute roamed and all sorts of sins prevailed.

Very good. Thanks for the context.

[nickk - not the imposter]

See this article:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/circusmaximus/hippodrome.html

[++]

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 11:33:07 AM UTC-5, nickk - not the imposter wrote:
> What you must understand about this is that directly across the street from Agia Sophia, was the entrance to the cities circus, coliseum, entertainment arena. The Emperor encouraged this entertainment for the masses to keep their minds off rebellion and general descent. While the Divine Liturgy was going on, many times the "circus" was going full blast. Not only discouraging people from attending the Divine Liturgy, but getting drunk and quite loud. The Emperess may have encouraged this as a way to get back at Chrysostom, but St. John railed against these circus "on goings" in his sermons. It wasn't that St. John was against entertainment for the people, but the circus was a place of debauchery, where women of ill-repute roamed and all sorts of sins prevailed.

Nick,

During this period of time, it has been estimated that less than 1/4 of the emperor's citizens, never mind his subjects who were not accorded citizenship, were Christians, and of that number, not all were Orthodox Christians.

[Catherine Jefferson]

Excellent example here of why context is so important to understanding
the Fathers, the Holy Scriptures, and (for that matter) most texts on
most subjects. This also makes a great deal of sense, since a "circus"
in the Roman Empire and a circus in the 20th or 21st century (at least,
in America) are very different things. Our circuses are migratory, not
permanent fixtures, and they also are rarely set up across the street
from churches where they would distract worshipers.

The greatest weakness of many traditionalist believers -- Orthodox,
other Christian, and in other religions entirely -- is that they lose
sight of the fact that the texts that they interpret were written within
a particular context and with a specific audience in mind. They often
don't bother to ask exactly what the circumstances were. This "context
blind" interpretation of religious texts often leads to applying a
reasonable teaching or example in a way that completely loses sight of
what the original author intended to say.

Most Orthodox priests and bishops (including most traditionalists)
manage to steer between letting context replace dogma entirely (as
liberal Protestantism often does) and throwing out context where it
offers important information on what a particular teaching or story
actually means. I have seen the same rigid mindset in a few corners of
the Orthodox Church that I did in my old Protestant church, though. :/
That mindset is NOT a good thing.


Under His mercy,


--
Catherine Jefferson <tw8...@ergosphere.net>
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net

[leushino]

Absolutely correct, Catherine. This is why I commended Nick for his provision of
the proper context. It is also why we can dismiss so much of the bible
interpretation of Peter and company.

[pyotr filipivich]

"++" <galj...@gmail.com> on Mon, 2 Feb 2015 11:06:45 -0800 (PST)

typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the following:

All of which offers a context for Fr John's sermons. What the
'heathen' did was of less concern than what _his_ flock was doing.
Sports nuts are sport nuts, regardless if it is the chariot races in
Constantinople, or Football Season (Arriba Real Madrid!) - and Fr John
was concerned that his Christians were not attending to eternal
matters.

[nickk - not the imposter]

St. John also railed against actors & actresses. It seems that even in days of old, those in the theater were not the highest of class people. In fact, St. John infers that the men were homosexuals and women harlots. They weren't real people, but put on false faces and enticed people by falsehood. Their morals were very low and displayed theater antics lacking Christian principles.

[leushino]

Sounds like Hollywood.

[pyotr filipivich]

nickk - not the imposter <nick...@gmail.com> on Tue, 3 Feb 2015
17:07:08 -0800 (PST) typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
following:

>St. John also railed against actors & actresses. It seems that even in days of old, those in the theater were not the highest of class people. In fact, St. John infers that the men were homosexuals and women harlots. They weren't real people, but put on false faces and enticed people by falsehood. Their morals were very low and displayed theater antics lacking Christian principles.

Part of his objection, perhaps, is that the Theatre is based on
falsehood. That is, the actors are making their living pretending to
be some one else.

[nickk - not the imposter]

It should also be mentioned here that the majority women at this time did not wear make-up. The idea of women wearing make-up was imported from Egypt and elsewhere. Originally, it was only the women of ill-repute who put on make-up and their red lips and red dresses advertised. The Empress Eudoxia thought it the "bomb" to not only dress in her regalia, but wear gobs of make-up and red lipstick. St. John openly railed against her in his sermons, even when she attended church and sat in the imperial balcony. He felt this new innovation of make-up did not become a woman to emulate the Virgin Mary, but emulated harlots. Eudoxia & St. John became enemies and her instigation had him banished where he died in exile.

[leushino]

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 5:12:15 AM UTC-8, nickk - not the imposter wrote:
> It should also be mentioned here that the majority women at this time did not wear make-up. The idea of women wearing make-up was imported from Egypt and elsewhere. Originally, it was only the women of ill-repute who put on make-up and their red lips and red dresses advertised. The Empress Eudoxia thought it the "bomb" to not only dress in her regalia, but wear gobs of make-up and red lipstick. St. John openly railed against her in his sermons, even when she attended church and sat in the imperial balcony. He felt this new innovation of make-up did not become a woman to emulate the Virgin Mary, but emulated harlots. Eudoxia & St. John became enemies and her instigation had him banished where he died in exile.

This is very interesting and helpful to learn this information. It really helps
to put things in their proper historical context.

[pyotr filipivich]

leushino <canadagoo...@gmail.com> on Wed, 4 Feb 2015 06:51:43

-0800 (PST) typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
following:

Amen.