Orthodox doctrine about saints
Andrew Kisliakov
doctrine of saints and their intercession, and in particular how we
argue it from the Bible.
Does anyone know of a resource (book or website) which presents an
outline of what we believe? Especially with any scripture references.
I had a bit of a look last night, but found surprisingly little.
In Christ
Andrew
T254
>outline of what we believe? Especially with any scripture references.
>I had a bit of a look last night, but found surprisingly little.
I highly recommend a book called - 'Dance, O Isaiah - Questions and answers on
some of the differences between Eastern Orthodox Christianity and other faiths'
by Constantine Platis.
It can be obtained by accessing Light & Life on the e-internet -
There is also a small booklet (pamphlet) available from conciliar Press on the
subject.
You might want to call them on their toll free number and they can recommend
books and or phamphlets
From Dance, O Isaiah -
Protestant: Why do you ask prayers of the saints? Christ is the only mediator
between God and man ( 1 Tim. 2:5)
Orthodox: Between God and man there is only one mediator (one who intervenes
between two disagreeing parties to reconcile them), but LOOK AT THE VERSES NEAR
IT - there are many intercessors (persons who make requests for us):
First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and
thanksgivings be made of all men (1 Tim. 2:1)
It is important to distinguish between "mediator in salvation" and "mediator in
prayer." Christ is the only mediator of salvation, but not the only mediator
in prayer.
Just because Christ is the only mediator in salvation does not mean we do not
need the prayers of other Christians. Jas. 5:16 says -
Pray for one another that you may be healed. The effective petition of a
righteous man has great power.
Protestant: But why do you ask for the prayers of dead people?
Orthodox: According to the Bible the martyrs and other departed saints are
not dead but alive in God (4 Macc. 16:25). To God, all saints are still alive
even the dead (Lk. 20:38).
1 Pet. 3-12 (quoting from Ps. 33 [34]:15 says that God listens to the prayers
of the righteous.
robert G Tallick
Lee Malatesta
There was an excellent Catholic website that detailed the scriptural
support for praying to saints, but the author took it offline because
the content of the site is going to be in his forthcoming book, A
Biblical Defense of Catholicism. The doctrines between Roman
Catholicism and Orthodoxy are very, very similiar concerning saints.
The author still has some good links that can be found at
http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS5.HTM
The logic is simple:
(1) Christians are commanded to ask each other for prayer.
(2) Saints are those Christians whom have met the first death and whom
we know are standing before the throne of the Lord.
(3) The prayers of those who are before the very throne of God are
especially effective as we know that those before the throne of God
are extremely righteous and scripture teaches that the prayer of the
righteous are exceedingly effective.
(4) [From (1), (2) and (3)] The saints are the most effective
Christians for us to ask prayers for.
The most common rebuttals are:
(a) Speaking with dead people in any form or fashion is necromancy.
(b) Saints can not hear all the people praying to them at once, so
praying to them is likely to be, at best, an excercise in futility
and, at worst, idolatry for making the saints equal to God.
(c) Saints are dead and can't pray.
Objection (a) is ridiculous because it makes Jesus a necromancer for
speaking with Moses during the transfiguation.
Objection (b) is contingent on heaven having the same constraints of
time as the present earth, which is a rather dubious premis.
Objection (c) is ridiculous. Jeremiah makes mention of Moses and
Samuel contining to intercede for Israel before God. During the
transfiguration of Christ, Moses came to earth to speak with Jesus.
The book of the Apocalypse describes saints standing before the very
throne of God.
Personally, I think that Protestant objection to the practice of
praying to saints is an implicit denial of the resurection.
Regards,
Lee Malatesta
Wilson Kerby
"Andrew Kisliakov" <a...@student.unsw.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3B2F0D8B...@student.unsw.edu.au...
> doctrine of saints and their intercession, and in particular how we
> argue it from the Bible.
>
wk
digimortal
the dead man in "Abraham's Bossum" would wants to warn his reletives who are
still living...
Andrew Kisliakov wrote in message <3B2F0D8B...@student.unsw.edu.au>...
arch...@erols.com
Andrew Kisliakov
Thanks for your consise explanation. I'll appreciate if you could
clarify:
Lee Malatesta wrote:
> Objection (c) is ridiculous. Jeremiah makes mention of Moses and
> Samuel contining to intercede for Israel before God.
I quickly searched for the word "Moses" in the book of Jeremiah, and
got verse 15:1, which I assume is what you're referring to here. (I
don't think I've ever seen this verse put forward before!)
Depending on which translation you read, it reads "Even if Moses and
Samuel were to stand before me", or "Though Moses and Samuel stood
before me", or something in between. To me, either doesn't present a
clear argument that they continue to intercede before God, although it
is certain that they did at one stage. How do you see it?
BTW thanks everyone who responded!
Andrew Kisliakov
since I'm outside the US, those toll-free numbers aren't going to be so
toll free! But I'll see if I can find them around here.
Andrew
Lee Malatesta
> Objection (c) is ridiculous. Jeremiah makes mention of Moses and
> Samuel contining to intercede for Israel before God.
Andrew Kisliakov asked for clarification:
> I quickly searched for the word "Moses" in the book of Jeremiah, and
> got verse 15:1, which I assume is what you're referring to here. (I
> don't think I've ever seen this verse put forward before!)
>
> Depending on which translation you read, it reads "Even if Moses and
> Samuel were to stand before me", or "Though Moses and Samuel stood
> before me", or something in between. To me, either doesn't present a
> clear argument that they continue to intercede before God, although it
> is certain that they did at one stage. How do you see it?
>
> BTW thanks everyone who responded!
Is it not interesting how the most widely attested scholarly
translations (KJV and RSV) translate Jeremiah 15:1 "Though Moses and
Samuel stood" while the more popular translations (NKJV, NIV, NASB)
translate "Even if"? My reading of the passage is that in this case,
even though Samuel and Moses are interceding before God, Israel is
going to receive the fruits of remaining unrepentant.
The second book of Macabbees is even more explicit, where in chapter
15, Judas Maccabeus has a vision of the dead high priest Onas who
shows him the dead prophet Jeremiah standing in heaven, interceding
for Israel. Given this verse, the cloud of witnesses in the letter to
the Hebrews, and the visit of Moses and Elijah to earth to speak with
the Christ, the KJV and RSV reading of Jeremiah makes more sense to
me. I'd hesitate to make any argument from English translations
though. It might be enlightening to see how Brenton translated this in
his English translation of the Septuagint. Best yet would be to find a
someone who knows ancient Greek person to analyze the verse in the
Septuagint for you. A Hebrew word study may or may not be
enlightening.
Regardless, the ridicularity of objection c (Saints are dead and can't
pray) doesn't depend entirely on the Jeremiah 15. The book of the
Apocalypse describes "dead" saints standing before the very throne of
God. The book of Hebrews describes a cloud of witnesses comprised of
heros of the faith that had been martyred or righteous in their
earthly life. Then Moses and Elijah came down in person to speak with
our Lord. Any single one of these passages proves the ridicularity of
objection c. Together, they obliterate it for anyone who truly holds
Scripture to be the word of God.
Regards,
Lee Malatesta
Danward44
Excuse me but I found the arguments put forth for prayer to saints to be
insufficient. For instance, the argument is not that the saints pray or
intercede for those on earth,but whether or not we (on the earth) should pray
to saints. No one addressed that. Further, in looking at the scripture, we
find that the word "saints" refers to all
Christians, and not just to persons especially noted for their piety. In 2
Cor. 1:1, Eph. 1:1, and Phil. 1:1 we see Paul using the word "saints" as a
general term for all Christians.
Second, the Bible has no references to prayer to saints or anyone who had
died in the scriptures except negative ones (see below).
The possible exception to this might be when God sent Moses and Elijah to
speak with Jesus. Some take this passage to mean that prayer to saints is
permissible. But note the special circumstances here:
1) This only happened once in Jesus' life (compare this with those who
pray to saints daily).
2) They were sent to Jesus by the father; Jesus did not call them down.
3) The father was very concerned lest equal honor be given to them as to
Jesus, objecting to Peter's proposal to build shrines to the three of them.
4) They physically appeared to Jesus. If we are to follow this example
literally, then we should expect the saints to appear to us physically as
well.
5) This is the only instance in scripture of this happening.
Another scripture in the Bible forbids praying to persons who have died,
even Christians who are in heaven.
Deut. 18:11-12 says, "There shall not be found among you
any...necromancer." The word necromancer literally means one who
communicates with the dead (Hebrew, "darash" to consult, enquire of, seek, or
pray and "muwth", the dead). God condemned Saul for contacting Saint Samuel in
after he had died (I Chron. 10:13-14).
Note that Jesus, when he taught us to pray in Matt. 6:9 said, "After this
manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven." In his own
prayers, Jesus is never recorded as praying to anyone but the Father, and he
never taught us to pray to Mary or a saint.
v1...@my-deja.com
>
>Dear listers,
>Excuse me but I found the arguments put forth for prayer to saints to be
>insufficient. For instance, the argument is not that the saints pray or
>intercede for those on earth,but whether or not we (on the earth) should pray
>to saints. No one addressed that. Further, in looking at the scripture, we
>find that the word "saints" refers to all
>Christians, and not just to persons especially noted for their piety. In 2
>Cor. 1:1, Eph. 1:1, and Phil. 1:1 we see Paul using the word "saints" as a
>general term for all Christians.
> Second, the Bible has no references to prayer to saints or anyone who had
>died in the scriptures except negative ones (see below).
Depends on which version of the Old Testament that you are using.
During Jesus' time the Jewish had at least two canons on what was
scripture. Jesus, and the Apostles, quoted mostly from what we
call today the Septuagint. The modern Jewish canon of the
Old Testament was set at around 96 AD, and is called the
Masoretic text. The Septuagint contains more books - one
that is relevant to this discussion is the book of Maccabees, where
we find reference a sin offering for the dead.
If your current translation of the Bible isn't based on the
Septuagint, you are missing this book and several others. Obviously,
this can have a tremendous impact on doctrine.
(http://www.netacc.net/~mafg/bible01.htm)
-V
Andrew Kisliakov
I won't answer your entire post - the reason I started this thread was,
after all, to get the Orthodox perspective on these objections - but I
did notice a few errors. You definitely seem to be reading things into
Scripture which aren't there, and making a few deductions which aren't
entirely logical.
Danward44 wrote:
>
> Dear listers,
> Excuse me but I found the arguments put forth for prayer to saints to be
> insufficient. For instance, the argument is not that the saints pray or
> intercede for those on earth,
Actually, yes, (part of) the argument is just that, because quite a few
times I have heard certain Protestants assert that saints cannot pray
or intercede for those on earth.
> but whether or not we (on the earth) should pray
> to saints. No one addressed that.
> Further, in looking at the scripture, we
> find that the word "saints" refers to all
> Christians, and not just to persons especially noted for their piety. In 2
> Cor. 1:1, Eph. 1:1, and Phil. 1:1 we see Paul using the word "saints" as a
> general term for all Christians.
> Second, the Bible has no references to prayer to saints or anyone who had
> died in the scriptures except negative ones (see below).
> The possible exception to this might be when God sent Moses and Elijah to
> speak with Jesus. Some take this passage to mean that prayer to saints is
> permissible. But note the special circumstances here:
> 1) This only happened once in Jesus' life (compare this with those who
> pray to saints daily).
Which begs the question: how many occurrences does it take? 2? 3? 42?
Who decides? Same applies to point (5).
> 2) They were sent to Jesus by the father; Jesus did not call them down.
How do you infer that they were sent by the Father? Reading the accounts
in Matthew, Mark and Luke, it makes no mention of this, rather, "they
appeared".
> 3) The father was very concerned lest equal honor be given to them as to
> Jesus, objecting to Peter's proposal to build shrines to the three of them.
Now I may be wrong here, but according to my understanding, Peter had
proposed to build tents (ie for habitation) rather than shrines. Please
correct me if I am wrong here.
> 4) They physically appeared to Jesus. If we are to follow this example
> literally, then we should expect the saints to appear to us physically as
> well.
Well, no. I am sure that, if Jesus wanted to talk with them at the
time, they need not have physically appeared.
> 5) This is the only instance in scripture of this happening.
> Another scripture in the Bible forbids praying to persons who have died,
> even Christians who are in heaven.
> Deut. 18:11-12 says, "There shall not be found among you
> any...necromancer." The word necromancer literally means one who
> communicates with the dead (Hebrew, "darash" to consult, enquire of, seek, or
> pray and "muwth", the dead). God condemned Saul for contacting Saint Samuel in
> after he had died (I Chron. 10:13-14).
To which the Orthodox reply is that they are no longer "dead", but alive
in Christ.
> Note that Jesus, when he taught us to pray in Matt. 6:9 said, "After this
> manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven."
Wouldn't your argument lead to the conclusion that any prayer other
than the Lord's prayer is forbidden?
> In his own
> prayers, Jesus is never recorded as praying to anyone but the Father, and he
> never taught us to pray to Mary or a saint.
Likewise, Jesus never asked his disciples or anyone else to pray for
him. He had no need to. That doesn't necessarily apply to us though.
Danward44
it may have been in the Septuagint
First of all, Jesus never referred to the apocryphal books, and they are not
quoted in the
New Testament scriptures. This is in contrast to the other Old Testament
scriptures, which were often used by Jesus and the New Testament writers, and
referred to as scripture.
Secondly, the Bible says that Jews were been given the responsibility of
preserving the Hebrew scriptures, as says Rom. 3:2, "Chiefly because to them
were committed the oracles of God." Jews did not and still do not accept the
apocryphal books as part of the Hebrew scriptures.
Thirdly, many church fathers cast doubt upon the reliability of the
apocrypha. Jerome (lived 340-420 A.D.), for instance, in his preface to the
books of Solomon, wrote:
"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but
does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom
and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the
authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
Lastly, several verses in the apocryphal books contradict the Bible. For
instance, several passages in the apocrypha state that you can buy eternal
life by giving money to the church. This contradicts Bible passages that say
eternal life is a gift of God that cannot be purchased with money. The
apocryphal passages are below, followed by the Bible passages:
Tobit 4: 8-11: "If thou hast abundance give alms accordingly: if thou have
but a little, be not afraid to give according to that little: For thou layest
up a good treasure for thyself against the day of necessity. Because that
alms do deliver from death, and suffereth not to come into darkness. For alms
is a good gift unto all that give it in the sight of the most High."
Tobit 12:9: "For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Those that exercise alms and righteousness shall be filled with life..."
Tobit 14:10-11: "Manasses gave alms, and escaped the snares of death which
they had set for him: but Aman fell into the snare, and perished. Wherefore
now, my son, consider what alms doeth, and how righteousness doth deliver."
Ecclesiasticus 3:30: "Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh
atonement for sin."
These four citations from the Apocrypha contradict the following passages
from the Bible:
Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out
devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
Acts 8:20 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because
thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life,
and this life is in his Son.
Notice especially the verses which refer to eternal life as a gift (Rom.
6:23, 1 John 5:11, John 10:28). Rom. 6:23 especially contrasts our wages
(death) with the gift of God (eternal life).
Eternal life is not something we can buy, as the apocrypha says, but it is a
gift of God given when we repent of our sins, as Acts 2:38 says:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift
of the Holy Ghost."
If indeed it is possible to pay enough money to earn heaven, then the rich
could be guaranteed eternal life. But in Luke 18:25 Jesus said, "For it is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to
enter the kingdom of God."
What Jesus meant was that no one, by his money or good deeds, can earn
heaven. We must trust in God's mercy for our salvation, as the Bible says in
Eph. 2:8-9:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Another apocryphal passage that finds no support in the Bible is the one
teaching that you can cast out a demon by burning the inner parts of a fish:
Tobit 6:6-7: "Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to
what use is the heart and the liver and the gal of the fish? And he said
unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit
trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the
party shall be no more vexed."
Tobit 6:16-17: "And when thou shalt come into the marriage chamber, thou
shalt take the ashes of perfume, and shalt lay upon them some of the heart
and liver of the fish, and shalt make a smoke with it: And the devil shall
smell it, and flee away, and never come again any more..."
The Bible shows no instance of anyone casting out demons by burning the parts
of a fish. Instead, demons are cast out in the name of Jesus:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall
they cast out devils;
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the
devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and
said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of
her. And he came out the same hour.
Another passage in the apocrypha shows a person praying to God to help them
to lie:
Judith 9:10,13: "Smite by the deceit of my lips the servant with the prince,
and the prince with the servant: break down their stateliness by the hand of
a woman....And make my speech and deceit to be their wound and stripe, who have
purposed cruel things against thy covenant..."
The Bible shows no case of someone asking God to help them to lie. The Bible
says that lying is a sin:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
Exodus 20: 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Leviticus 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to
another.
Psalms 101:7 He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who
tells lies shall not continue in my presence.
The apocrypha also refers to praying for the dead:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45: "And when he had made a gathering throughout the company
to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer
a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of
the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have
risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also
in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died
godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for
the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."
There is no example in the Bible of anyone praying for the dead. In fact, in
2 Samuel 12:23, David, in referring to his infant son who had just died, quit
praying for him, saying: "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I
bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
The Bible refers to immediate resolution of the state of persons who die.
There is no delay period for judgment mentioned in the Bible (such as 40
days) as some have believed. For instance, in Luke 23:43, Jesus, in speaking to
the repentant theif who died with him, said, "Verily I say unto thee, today
shalt thou be with me in paradise." The man went immediately to heaven.
Paul also referred to this immediate judgment in indicated the same in Phil.
1:23: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be
with Christ; which is far better."
Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:
The apocrypha also includes some evident errors, sich as the two deaths of
Antiochus Ephiphanes:
In 2 Macc. 9:5,28 it is written that he died of bowel disease:
"But the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, smote him with an incurable and
invisible plague: or as soon as he had spoken these words, a pain of the
bowels that was remediless came upon him, and sore torments of the inner
parts; Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he
entreated other men, so died he a miserable death in a strange country in the
mountains."
But in 1 Macc. 6:8-9,10,16 it says he died of grief:
"Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved:
whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it
had not befallen him as he looked for. And there he continued many days: for
his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die.
Wherefore he called for all his friends, and said unto them, The sleep is gone
from mine eyes, and my heart faileth for very care. I perceive therefore that
for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through
great grief in a strange land. So king Antiochus died there in the hundred
forty and ninth year."
Lastly, it should be added that the apocrypha itself does not claim to be
scripture. For instance, the writer of Maccabees states that his book is
simply a history of the events of the time:
"...all such things as have been comprised in 5 books by Jason of Cyrene, we
have at-tempted to abridge in one book. For considering the difficulty that
they find that desire to undertake the narrations of histories, because of the
multitude of the matter, we have taken care for those indeed that are willing
to read,...And as to ourselves indeed, in undertaking this work of abridging,
we have taken in hand no easy task, yea. rather a business full of watching and
sweat. .. Leaving to the authors the exact handling of every particular, and as
for ourselves. according to the plan proposed, studying to brief... For to
collect all that is known, to put the discourse in order, and curiously to
discuss every particular point, is the duty of the author of a history. But to
pursue brevity of speech and to avoid nice declarations of things, is to be
granted to him that maketh an abridgement." (2 Maccabees 2: 24-32). "...I will
also here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it
becometh the history, it is what I desired; but if not so perfectly, it must be
pardoned me. For as it is hurtful to drink always wine, or always water, but
pleasant to use sometimes the one, and sometimes the other, so if the speech be
always nicely framed, it will not be grateful to the readers..." 2 Maccabees
15: 39-40).
useful for historical purposes in understanding the times in which they were
written, many do not consider them to be scripture for the reasons cited
above. Insofar as the books promote false doctrines, such as the possibility
of praying for the dead or purchasing eternal life, the apocryphal books go
beyond history and become dangerous to persons seeking to obtain eternal life.
Andrew Kisliakov
>
> I don't think I would use the apocrypha as a source for doctrine, even though
> it may have been in the Septuagint
I don't think I would use these pre-written tracts from "Orthodox Light"
as a source for any reliable information. Especially considering the
lame one you posted last time.
Did you compose this document yourself? If not, would it not be
appropriate to acknowledge the source? I hope you also asked the
author's
permission before cutting out a couple of paragraphs.
> First of all, Jesus never referred to the apocryphal books, and they are not
> quoted in the
> New Testament scriptures. This is in contrast to the other Old Testament
> scriptures, which were often used by Jesus and the New Testament writers, and
> referred to as scripture.
>
> Secondly, the Bible says that Jews were been given the responsibility of
> preserving the Hebrew scriptures, as says Rom. 3:2, "Chiefly because to them
> were committed the oracles of God." Jews did not and still do not accept the
> apocryphal books as part of the Hebrew scriptures.
If they were to decide suddenly to add a new book to their scriptures,
would you accept it too?
Actually, the first quote you gave us from Tobit seems to contradict
your assertion.
> But in Luke 18:25 Jesus said, "For it is
> easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to
> enter the kingdom of God."
>
> What Jesus meant was that no one, by his money or good deeds, can earn
> heaven. We must trust in God's mercy for our salvation, as the Bible says in
> Eph. 2:8-9:
>
> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
> the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
>
> Another apocryphal passage that finds no support in the Bible is the one
> teaching that you can cast out a demon by burning the inner parts of a fish:
>
> Tobit 6:6-7: "Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to
> what use is the heart and the liver and the gal of the fish? And he said
> unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit
> trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the
> party shall be no more vexed."
>
> Tobit 6:16-17: "And when thou shalt come into the marriage chamber, thou
> shalt take the ashes of perfume, and shalt lay upon them some of the heart
> and liver of the fish, and shalt make a smoke with it: And the devil shall
> smell it, and flee away, and never come again any more..."
>
> The Bible shows no instance of anyone casting out demons by burning the parts
> of a fish.
Yes, it does. Tobit 6.
Well, you did forget to mention Jacob...
Of course, since us Orthodox never read our Bibles anyway, you're
probably
safe most of the time ;-)
> The apocrypha also refers to praying for the dead:
>
> 2 Maccabees 12:43-45: "And when he had made a gathering throughout the company
> to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer
> a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of
> the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have
> risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also
> in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died
> godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for
> the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."
>
> There is no example in the Bible of anyone praying for the dead. In fact, in
Yes there is. 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.
Looks kind of like Luke 1:1-4 come to think of it. Should we chuck that
out, then, too?
V
> I don't think I would use the apocrypha as a source for doctrine, even though
> it may have been in the Septuagint
You are not the Church.
>
> First of all, Jesus never referred to the apocryphal books, and they are not
> quoted in the
> New Testament scriptures. This is in contrast to the other Old Testament
> scriptures, which were often used by Jesus and the New Testament writers, and
> referred to as scripture.
Jesus did refer to the Septuagint more that any other Old Testament
revisions. Do you think that he wasn't aware of the rest of what
was in it?
>
> Secondly, the Bible says that Jews were been given the responsibility of
> preserving the Hebrew scriptures, as says Rom. 3:2, "Chiefly because to them
> were committed the oracles of God." Jews did not and still do not accept the
> apocryphal books as part of the Hebrew scriptures.
The Jews must have at one time - why were the books in the Septuagint,
which was used by the Jews? Beyond this, would you put Jesus in
opposition
to the Jews, with the Jews on the 'right' side? He did quote from it
after all. And, last I checked, the Jews don't accept any of the
New Testament, so by your words we should reject that as well.
But this point actually strengthens our argument, if you acknowledge
the transfer of 'Israel' from the Jews to the Christians, in which
case
the New Israel - the Church - has the responsibility of preserving
the scriptures. And it preserved the Septuagint, until the time
of the re-formation.
> Thirdly, many church fathers cast doubt upon the reliability of the
> apocrypha. Jerome (lived 340-420 A.D.), for instance, in his preface to the
> books of Solomon, wrote:
> "As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but
> does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom
> and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the
> authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
But yet the Septuagint was not revised - if all the church fathers
had felt the way that Jerome had, certainly it would have been.
> Lastly, several verses in the apocryphal books contradict the Bible. For
> instance, several passages in the apocrypha state that you can buy eternal
> life by giving money to the church. This contradicts Bible passages that say
> eternal life is a gift of God that cannot be purchased with money. The
> apocryphal passages are below, followed by the Bible passages:
>
> Tobit 4: 8-11: "If thou hast abundance give alms accordingly: if thou have
> but a little, be not afraid to give according to that little: For thou
> layest up a good treasure for thyself against the day of necessity.
> Because that alms do deliver from death, and suffereth not to come into
> darkness. For alms is a good gift unto all that give it in the sight of the
> most High."
Do these verses also contradict 'the Bible':
[34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and
clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto
you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my
brethren, ye have done it unto me.]
Since they seem to say that by feeding the hungry, giving drink to the
thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, and visiting those
in prision you will inherit the kindom.
>
> Tobit 12:9: "For alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all
> sin.
I guess that the whole thing about killing goats and sheep as sin
offerings isn't (OT) Biblical as well.
Just as animal sacrifices, stoning people for sin, and the whole
thing about dealing with mold and leprosy are - and we have
no problem with those things being in the Old Testament.
[ Snip ]
-V