Christ is Risen
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
Martyrology of Tallacht)
Having loosed souls, Jesus has arisen from the womb of the earth.
Asréracht Críst! Asréracht Hé-som co dearb! (Old Irish)
Christ is Risen! He Is Truly Risen!
Tá Críost ar éirígh! Go deimhin, tá Sé ar éirígh! (Irish)
Tha Crìosd air èiridh! Gu dearbh, tha e air èiridh! (Scot's Gaelic)
Atgyfododd Crist! Atgyfododd in wir! (Welsh)
Christus Surrexit! Vere Surrexit! (Latin)
Christos anesti! alithos anesti! (Greek)
Christos voskresye! Voistinu voskresye! (Slavonic)
--
=================================================
Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
"If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
Resuming the mission of the Saints who spread the Gospel
throughout Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas.
"Preach the Gospel to all nations"
Box 72102 Akron Ohio 44372 (330)867-3685
http://CelticChristianity.org
Wak-Wak
What Orthodox churches are the Celtic Church in communion with?
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neigbour; if we benefit our brother
we benefit ourselves, and if offend him we sin against God."
-Abba Antony the Great
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De" <epmae...@celticchristianity.org> wrote
in message news:3EB04189...@celticchristianity.org...
Charles Hohenstein
"Wak-Wak" <m.riz...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> +PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+
>
> What Orthodox churches are the Celtic Church in communion with?
I'd very much like to know that myself. Their web site is interesting. I
would certainly enjoy seeing a eucharist celebrated according to the
Stowe Missal. Al, do you know anything about these people?
Charles Hohenstein
------------------
Boycott French products!
http://www.FranceStinks.com/
http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/
Al Green
"Charles Hohenstein" <choh...@skyenet.net> wrote in message
news:chohenste-7B1F3...@news.skyenet.net...
> In article <NS%ra.5892$cS.4...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "Wak-Wak" <m.riz...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > +PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is
risen!+
> >
> > What Orthodox churches are the Celtic Church in communion with?
>
> I'd very much like to know that myself. Their web site is
interesting. I
> would certainly enjoy seeing a eucharist celebrated according to
the
> Stowe Missal. Al, do you know anything about these people?
>
> Charles Hohenstein
Charles and All,
To the best of my knowledge -- and I've tried my best over the years
to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion
with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox
Churches.
Al
Charles Hohenstein
"Al Green" <AG...@el-spam-O.com> wrote:
> To the best of my knowledge -- and I've tried my best over the years
> to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion
> with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox
> Churches.
Their web site only gives a P.O. box as an address, which makes me a
little suspicious.
++
Wak-Wak
> Charles and All,
>
> To the best of my knowledge -- and I've tried my best over the years
> to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion
> with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox
> Churches.
>
> Al
>
+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+
Unfortunately, there is a Celtic Christian going around advertising his own
Coptic Orthodox message board, and trying to tie the Celtic Church with the
Coptic Orthodox - I think he posted here too, Andrew Siddle or something
like that.
Anyway, they have no affiliation with the Coptic Orthodox Church, except
that traditionally 12 Coptic Orthodox monks brought Christianity to Ireland.
This Celtic group though talks about Joseph of Arimathea as being the one
who spread Christianity in Europe and even brought the grail with him... I
don't know, even if they have some kind of Apostolic roots, this guy claims
they believe in reincarnation and that so did the early church...so I'm not
so sure of the soundness of this group.
--
digimortal
"Al Green" <AG...@el-spam-O.com> wrote in message
news:wY7sa.69300$5f4....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Steve Hayes
<epmae...@celticchristianity.org> wrote:
>Iar túaslucud anman, asréracht Íssu a brú thalman (Old Irish from the
>Martyrology of Tallacht)
>Having loosed souls, Jesus has arisen from the womb of the earth.
>
>Asréracht Críst! Asréracht Hé-som co dearb! (Old Irish)
>Christ is Risen! He Is Truly Risen!
>Tá Críost ar éirígh! Go deimhin, tá Sé ar éirígh! (Irish)
>Tha Crìosd air èiridh! Gu dearbh, tha e air èiridh! (Scot's Gaelic)
>Atgyfododd Crist! Atgyfododd in wir! (Welsh)
>Christus Surrexit! Vere Surrexit! (Latin)
>Christos anesti! alithos anesti! (Greek)
>Christos voskresye! Voistinu voskresye! (Slavonic)
UKristu uvikile! Uvukile impela!
O Kristu o tsogile! Wa nnete o tsogile!
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
++
Wak-Wak wrote:
Charles and All, To the best of my knowledge -- and I've tried my best over the years to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox Churches. Al+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+ Unfortunately, there is a Celtic Christian going around advertising his own Coptic Orthodox message board, and trying to tie the Celtic Church with the Coptic Orthodox - I think he posted here too, Andrew Siddle or something like that. Anyway, they have no affiliation with the Coptic Orthodox Church, except that traditionally 12 Coptic Orthodox monks brought Christianity to Ireland. This Celtic group though talks about Joseph of Arimathea as being the one who spread Christianity in Europe and even brought the grail with him... I don't know, even if they have some kind of Apostolic roots, this guy claims they believe in reincarnation and that so did the early church...so I'm not so sure of the soundness of this group.
Take your pick, if you dare
Galina
Wak-Wak
They are primarily a homosexual group . The same group runs a fake
Protestant Episcopal Church, a fake Roman Cathlic , a fake Celtic, a fake
fake seminary. From what I have heard, all use a lot of incense, a lot of
hype and a lot of lavishness
Take your pick, if you dare
Galina
+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+
Oh my! How'd you find this?
Peace and grace.
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
++
Wak-Wak wrote:
I spent three days online uncovering them and their connections.
Steve Hayes
>Unfortunately, there is a Celtic Christian going around advertising his own
>Coptic Orthodox message board, and trying to tie the Celtic Church with the
>Coptic Orthodox - I think he posted here too, Andrew Siddle or something
>like that.
>
>Anyway, they have no affiliation with the Coptic Orthodox Church, except
>that traditionally 12 Coptic Orthodox monks brought Christianity to Ireland.
>This Celtic group though talks about Joseph of Arimathea as being the one
>who spread Christianity in Europe and even brought the grail with him... I
>don't know, even if they have some kind of Apostolic roots, this guy claims
>they believe in reincarnation and that so did the early church...so I'm not
>so sure of the soundness of this group.
In some circles, it's Cool to be Celtic, or at least to give the impression
that one is Celtic.
Such denominations will usually be found to be connected with "episcopi
vagantes". These were often clerics in more established religious bodies,
whose ambitions exceeded their abilities, and got themselves consecrated as
bishops by other disguntled clerics who had got themselves consecrated as
bishops. Sometikes they were consecrated several times over, to ensure their
"lines of succession".
Some of them went about promiscuously spawning new denominations. They ranged
in character from delightfully eccentric to incorrigibly imooral (some were
suspended from their ministry in established denominations for immorality -
usually sexual or financial, though drunkenness was sometimes there as well).
A Google search on "episcopi vagantes" should bring up more information.
E Kalenik
"Al Green" <AG...@el-spam-O.com> wrote in message
news:wY7sa.69300$5f4....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion
> with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox
> Churches.
>
> Al
Al,
What "Celtic Church"? It hasn't existed for centuries. To pretend
otherwise reminds me of the history of the Baptists that some tried to
promote a while back claiming that they are somehow linked to the
"anabaptists" which of course they weren't.
As for the case in point, you do recognize our old friend Fr.Dowling, don't
you?
Evan
Al Green
Fr. Dowling??? The name is familiar but I cannot recall...
Refresh my recollection!
Al
"E Kalenik" <kal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:YbGua.146387$ja4.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> I outed them before, quite literally in both senses of the term
What are you trying to imply by that statement?
The only correct sense is that we are not, nor do we seek,
intercommunion with those who are in communion with apostate churches
that have signed mutual agreements with heretics.
If you are attempting to imply anything else, you are not only
incorrect, but sick.
+Maelruain, Cele De
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> ___
> They are primarily a homosexual group . The same group runs a fake
> Protestant Episcopal Church, a fake Roman Cathlic , a fake Celtic, a fake
> Druids and Witches coven, a fake Orthodox, a fake Coptic [Orthodox] and a
> fake seminary. From what I have heard, all use a lot of incense, a lot of
> hype and a lot of lavishness
> Take your pick, if you dare
> Galina
Interesting lie. We do not ordain homosexuals. We do not claim to fun
anything but an Orthodox church. Before you libel someone, you
should check your facts.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> They are primarily a homosexual group . The same group runs a fake
> fake Druids and Witches coven, a fake Orthodox, a fake Coptic and a fake
>
> Take your pick, if you dare
>
> Galina
What site is the basis of these claims that this jursidiction is
connected with any such group? Put forth evidence or or apologize!
Check your facts before you libel someone. The only sites belonging
to this church advertise this jurisdiction. We do not ordain
homosexuals nor do we condone homosexual behavior. We do not run
Episcopal, Roman, fake Orthodox (Living Church relatives). We have a
study program for formation of men for Holy Orders. It does not
charge for its services.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
Based on a note anonymous arch...@erols.com sent me, I conclude that
they have been mislead into proliferating libel by false information
posted to this newsgroup some years ago from spoofed email addresses.
It should be noted that at that time a great many people on this
newsgroup were similarly libelled from similar sources. That is a sad
state of affairs.
God the Son, Jesus Christ, was born, lived and died so that fallen
humanity might arise from such sins.
For those who want facts about our jurisdiction, please see
http://celticchristianity.org and ask questions from the people listed
there. Don't believe everything you see scrawled upon walls!
Pax Christi
+Maelruain, Cele De
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> news:wY7sa.69300$5f4....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > To the best of my knowledge -- and I've tried my best over the years
> > to discover a connection -- the Celtic Church is not in communion
> > with ANY of the 20 autocephalous and autonomous canonical Orthodox
> > Churches.
> >
> > Al
>
> Al,
>
> What "Celtic Church"? It hasn't existed for centuries.
> As for the case in point, you do recognize our old friend Fr.Dowling, don't
> you?
Hi Evan,
Given that merely sending out a Paschal greeting evoked such a nasty,
unChristian response, it might be time to take this argument for
another go round like we did on the Indiana list some years ago.
While it is true that heretical Normans finished the suppression of
the Celtic churches in 1172, it is appropriate, even based on
authorities cited by the
OCA,(http://CelticChristianity.org/lossky.html) to restore their sees
and usages. The Eastern Orthodox mainstream churches are obviously
uninterested in doing this.
It is also true that due to signed agreements they have made with
heretics, many of them no longer meet the original Celtic churches'
criteria as Christian. Those in communion with such groups would
likewise be viewed as having rejected the Holy Spirit. So it would
not be appropriate for them to try to restore our usages anywhere.
So even with our married Bishops, which was a Celtic practice, it is
more appropriate that we do this work.
Pax Christi
Your old friend
+Maelruain, Cele De (Fr. Kristopher Dowling)
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
"Wak-Wak" <m.riz...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<MGvsa.192$L62....@news20.bellglobal.com>...___ They are primarily a homosexual group . The same group runs a fake Protestant Episcopal Church, a fake Roman Cathlic , a fake Celtic, a fake Druids and Witches coven, a fake Orthodox, a fake Coptic [Orthodox] and a fake seminary. From what I have heard, all use a lot of incense, a lot of hype and a lot of lavishness Take your pick, if you dare GalinaInteresting lie. We do not ordain homosexuals.
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
++ wrote:
Glad to hear it. A healthy change of direction
Interesting. We have never had homosexual clergy, nor advocated
homosexual behavior. We will accept thos who want to fight against
such temptations though. Love the sinner; hate the sin. Perhaps
we might help you in your desire to cling to falsehoods.
We do not claim to fun anything but an Orthodox church. Before you libel someone, you should check your facts.
nicknospamcobb
non-canonical group and has NO connection to canonical Orthodoxy. Your
church in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio (Akron) is in your garage. Just so
everyone here is clear!
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
is noteworthy. but please get it straight: our chapel is In my apartment in
Akron: I do not own a house, much less a garage.
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
Christ is Risen
Based on a note anonymous arch...@erols.com sent me, I conclude that
they have been mislead into proliferating libel by false information
posted to this newsgroup some years ago from spoofed email addresses.
It should be noted that at that time a great many people on this
newsgroup were similarly libelled from similar sources. That is a sad
state of affairs.
God the Son, Jesus Christ, was born, lived and died so that fallen
humanity might arise from such sins.
For those who want facts about our jurisdiction, please see
http://celticchristianity.org and ask questions from the people listed
there. Don't believe everything you see scrawled upon walls!
Here is info from your own pages:
Your supposed self: Abbot-Bishop Maelrúain, Céle Dé Metropolitan and Archbishop of Armagh
Yer pal Timothy, Céle Dé of Nashville and Glasgow (give us a break! ), your " Vicar General", a title which Orhtodox do not use.
Your webpages refer to both your self made bishop and your "local church". Here it is, all run out of post office boxes:
Box 72102,
Akron, Ohio 44372 - USA
Asce...@CelticChristianity.org
http://www.celticchristianity.org/churches/ascension.oh.usa/
(330)867-3685 (7-8 PM Mon-Wed)
Orthodox Mission of Dallas
Box 822223
Dallas, Texas 75382-2223 - USA
WEB SITE
AtT...@CelticChristianity.org
(214) 348-3244
Representatives of other churches are directed to our Office of External Communications Deaconess Elizabeth, Cele De, Celtic Orthodox Christian Church ,Box 72102, Akron, Ohio 44372, MtEli...@CelticChristianity.org
Yo, let's take a look at vocations in your business, run out of a Post Office Box at :
Joseph Farrell used to be aswociated with Saint Tikhon's. Why did he leave, or was he kicked out of the OCA? Is he defrokced?
-
<deleted>
- If you are interested in the intense training and other requirements for Ordination, it might be an option to start a parish. In that case, please direct your inquiries to one of our Bishops. For those who have had previous theological training, some of the study requirements may be passed by testing, although there are some strict requirements as well. Although there are constant inquiries from those who are looking for a parish, actually starting a parish requires much time, dedication, and care; dedication to God and to the people in the parish.
http://celticchristianity.org/stowe.pdf
SEMINARY OF ST. FIACC PROGRAM
for Training of Celtic Orthodox Clergy
Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
May God Bless you for your interest.
Satisfaction of the requirements of this Course is one of the prerequisites for Ordination. Previous studies and experience may satisfy some or all Course requirements. Completion of this course is not a guarantee of ordination or assignment.
No degrees are awarded through this tuition-free, non residential program. It is intended to insure the education of men called to Sacramental Ministries in the Celtic Orthodox Christian Church to the satisfaction of their Ordaining Bishop. Seminarians are required to provide their own internet access since much of the material for study will be provided online. Tutors will hold discussions online at the Seminary's forum. Seminarians are responsible for the cost of their textbooks and study materials as well as the postage for letters they send, and phone calls they place to their instructors.
Others who are interested in an in-depth study of Orthodox Christianity and its Celtic expression are free to use the Syllabus but may not claim affiliation with this Seminary.
To apply, fill out and submit all five of the following documents.
Application Form for Admission , Syllabus and Self-Evaluation Form,
Oath & Application for Membership.
Statement of Faith and Discipline & Applicant's Professions of Faith.
Background form
A reference copy may be submitted electronically, but action will be deferred until a hard copy of all material are received.
An interview with the Bishop of the Diocese will be scheduled after all paperwork has been filed.
That interview is required before any application form is processed.
All who are ordained to ranks of the Diaconate, Priesthood, or Episcopate for the Celtic Rite of the Celtic Orthodox Christian Church are Céli Dé.
Click here to read the Rule before deciding whether to apply for membership. Mail the completed Applications for Admission and Membership, Syllabus and Self-Evaluation Form,Background Documentation for your Application with any necessary supporting documents and the signed and dated Celtic Orthodox Christian Church Statement of Faith and Discipline to the mailing address on our Office Front Page. An interview with the Diocesan Bishop (see dioceses.html) is required before this or any other application can be processed.
Note: Retain a copy of all forms submitted for your personal records.
All application materials become property of the Celtic Orthodox Christian Church and will not be returned.
nicknospamcobb
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
calls from indigent Orthodox hoping for a handout. Instead, I walked them
through social services.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
It may be that your particular vagrante group has been maligned by another vagrante group - if so, how would we know? You are not a part of mainstream Orthodoxy
Why should we ask the vagrante source?
Here is info from your own pages:Your supposed self: Abbot-Bishop Maelrúain, Céle Dé Metropolitan and Archbishop of Armagh
Yer pal Timothy, Céle Dé of Nashville and Glasgow (give us a break! ), your " Vicar General", a title which Orhtodox do not use.
Yo, let's take a look at vocations in your business, run out of a Post Office Box at :
Writings, Translations, Commentaries and Course materials by Bishop Photius (Joseph P. Farrell),D.Phil.(Oxon.)
Joseph Farrell used to be aswociated with Saint Tikhon's. Why did he leave, or was he kicked out of the OCA? Is he defrokced?
Bishop Photius was never a OCA clergy. He left because of the increase false ecumenist activities of the OCA and SCOBA.
etc. Yes, you are running a seminary, of a sort. Basically, anyone your so-called bishop likes.
Actually, we have only Ordained a Deacon since the program began. No one else ever completed the course. Most found a paid degree program simpler.
++
......08/15/1954 Emile Federico Rodriguez y Durand (Fairfield)
........1) 12/02/1973 William R. Nesselrode
...........a) xx/xx/19xx Grant L. Ford
.......... b) 06/02/1974 Robert Norton (see below)
........2) 06/02/1974 Robert Norton
...........a) 09/28/1974 Francis Jerome Joachim Ladd
...........b) 02/05/1983 Martin J. Hill
...........c) 02/06/1983 Raymond Eugene Hefner
...........d) 02/05/1984 Forest Ernest Barber
...........e) xx/xx/19xx John P. Doerr
...........f) 10/08/1988 Don Bryant de Cordova
........3) 03/20/1977 Paul Christian G. W. Schultz, Jr.
........4) 06/13/1981 Michael Joseph Farrell
...........a) 06/02/1984 Gerard M. Greeley
........5) 04/17/1984 Patrick Callahan
...........a) xx/xx/19xx Howard D. van Orden
...........b) xx/xx/19xx R. Augustin Sicard
........6) 06/14/1987 Nils Bertil Mar Alexander Persson
...........a) 06/14/1987 Forest Ernest Barber (see above)
...........b) 05/28/1983 & 12/19/1987 George William Boyer
...........c) 06/15/1988 Edward Paul Raible
...........d) 09/17/1988 Robert Tau Jacques Amadou
...........e) 08/05/1989 Karl Julius Barwin (see below)
...........f) 08/31/1989 Charles-Rafael Payeur
........7) 08/05/1989 Karl Julius Barwin
........8) 05/12/1990 George Augustus Stallings
...........a) xx/xx/19xx Jude N. Egbe
...........b) xx/xx/19xx Carlos Harvin
........9) 05/21/1994 Alexander Ong Verzosa
08/15/1954 Emile Federico Rodriguez y Durand (Fairfield) (b.
in 1912; still living).
......e-mail address: ______________
Ordained a priest on 06/21/1938 at xxxxx
- by his brother Alberto Luís Rodriguez y Durand, a bishop of the Iglesia Católica Apostólica Méxicana.
Consecrated a bishop, sub conditione, on 08/15/1954 at Albuquerque, New Mexico,
- by Esteban Mayer Corradi-Sacrella, the Titular Archbishop of Nova Segovia for the Igreja Católica Apostólica Brasiliera,
- assisted by Carlos Duarte Costa, Patriarch of the National Catholic Apostolic Churches.
Later consecrated a bishop, sub conditione, on 03/12/1955 at xxxxx
- by his brother Alberto Luís Rodriguez y Durand, a bishop of the Iglesia Católica Apostólica Méxicana.
- assisted by xxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
Again consecrated a bishop, sub conditione, on 07/18/1963 at xxxxx
- by Richard Arthur Marchenna, a bishop of the North American Old Roman Catholic Church,
- assisted by Walter Xavier Brown, a bishop of the Archdiocese of the Old Catholic Church of America.
Also consecrated a bishop, sub conditione,
- 1) on xxxxx at xxxxx
- by Antoine Joseph Aneed, a bishop of the Byzantine Universal (Catholic) and Orthodox Church of the Americas;
- assisted by xxxx, a bishop of xxxx.
- 2) on xxxxx at xxxxx
- by Frederick Charles King, a bishop of the Old Roman Catholic Church;
- assisted by xxxx, a bishop of xxxx
- 3) on xxxxx at xxxxx
- by John Barwell Walker (a/k/a Edmund Basile Walker-Baxter), a bishop of the Byzantine Universal (Catholic) and Orthodox Church of the Americas;
- assisted by xxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
- 4) on 06/15/1988 at Glendale, California,
- by Francisco Pagtakhan, a bishop of the Iglesia Filipina Independiente,
- assisted by Nils Bertil Mar Alexander Persson, a bishop of xxxxx,
- and by Paul Christian Gerald W. Schultz, Jr., a bishop of xxxxx.
In 1983 Bp. Rodriguez y Fairfield became the Primate of the Iglesia Católica Apostólica Méxicana.
|
Bp. Rodriguez y Fairfield has consecrated as bishops:
|
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
++ wrote:It may be that your particular vagrante group has been maligned by another vagrante group - if so, how would we know? You are not a part of mainstream OrthodoxyIf you publish it, you should check it because a person that repeats libel is considered equally culpable under civil law.Why should we ask the vagrante source?Perhaps because it is us and not a church whose name sounds like us.Here is info from your own pages:Do you consider the Greeks and Antiochians of SCOBA, who themselves use that title for various offices, then, to be non-Orthodox?Your supposed self: Abbot-Bishop Maelrúain, Céle Dé Metropolitan and Archbishop of Armagh
Yer pal Timothy, Céle Dé of Nashville and Glasgow (give us a break! ), your " Vicar General", a title which Orhtodox do not use.
Yo, let's take a look at vocations in your business, run out of a Post Office Box at :Actually, we have only Ordained a Deacon since the program began. No one else ever completed the course. Most found a paid degree program simpler.
Writings, Translations, Commentaries and Course materials by Bishop Photius (Joseph P. Farrell),D.Phil.(Oxon.)Joseph Farrell used to be aswociated with Saint Tikhon's. Why did he leave, or was he kicked out of the OCA? Is he defrokced?
Bishop Photius was never a OCA clergy. He left because of the increase false ecumenist activities of the OCA and SCOBA.
etc. Yes, you are running a seminary, of a sort. Basically, anyone your so-called bishop likes.
=================================================
Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
Celtic saints are rather nice to contemplate. We've had long threads on Celtic Saints and Saints to the Celts.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> What about the Deaconess you talked about in your email to me?
Deaconess is not a Sacramental ministry. So Seminary is not required.
> > =================================================
> > Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
> >
>
> I still don't see how you can call yourself Orthodox. You're basically
> a do it yourself type relgion, no?
Based on Doctrine, succession and use of Liturgics from before the
Schism of 1054, yes we can. See our Bishops' Statement of Faith at
http://CelticChristianity.org/horosm.html .
Can your Bishops be said to follow the same criteria? Or are they
signatories, or in communion with signatories, of statements that
contain ideas condemned by the Ecumenical Councils like the Agreed
Statements of the early 1990s?* Instead they have to appeal to the
idea invented by the ecumenist Melitios Metaxakis who proposed that
recognition by Constantinople was sufficient to legitimize a church.
He for all intents and purposes recognized the CoE, since they had
essentially bought the Patriarchate of Constantinople for him. Did
that make the CoE an Orthodox Church before Metaxakis was run out of
Constantinople? Constantinople did not recognize the creation of the
OCA. What is the OCA by the Metaxakis standard? What is any member of
SCOBA by definition of the Councils through its continued intercommion
with those who signed the Agreed Statements of the early 1990s?*
* A good analysis of the Agreed Statements can be found at
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_athos.htm .
Pax Christi.
+Maelruain, Cele De
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
Again, you are attempting to misdirect the discussion away from your
original libel and just compounding it. None of our clergy have any
succession from those lines. Use of similar family names is no grounds
for a historical proof of anything. My family name is Dowling. That
does not mean that I am a trustee of Dowling college, or was a
character in a TV series years back.
You do shoddy research.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
Church in message news:<3EB231AC...@erols.com>
So here are a few things which might answer his/her confusion?
> They are primarily a homosexual group .
We do not ordain homosexuals, nor condone homosexuality: essay from
our Official answers document, dated late 1990s:
"Is the Church required to provide Sacraments to active homosexuals,
abusive employers or other "alternative" lifestyles because of its
commitment to those it Baptizes?
"We love the sinner, but hate the sin and pray that they are converted
from it. We do not hate the sinner, for hatred itself is a grave sin
which many follow as a way of life. That is not a Christian lifestyle.
"We all are tempted. It is part of being human and is not a sin when
the temptation is rejected. The devil even tried to tempt Christ. The
Church has been taught that we can never condone anything that we have
been told is a sin. Persons who have been Baptized are supposed to act
as responsible Christians: living their lives according to Christian
teachings. Baptized Christians are taught that it is necessary to
resist words, thoughts and acts that would cut them off from Salvation
(Matthew 15: 18-20; Mark 7: 20-23; Romans 1: 24-32). A sinful activity
is a sin regardless of source of the temptation, even if the source is
situation or genetics. Anyone who suggests that sinful behavior is
permissible by remaining silent when it occurs, advocating it,
knowingly permitting it or doing it themselves, is failing in their
Christian life and endangering others by serving as a bad example.
Their actions say that sin is permissible. Sin is forgivable, but not
permissible.
"The Church welcomes those who strive to resist temptation. The Church
may sponsor charity or pray for those afflicted by their own sin, but
the Church cannot knowingly accept membership or even contributions
from those who persist in or permit sin."
> The same group runs a fake
> Protestant Episcopal Church,
See our article on the foundation of the CoE and PECUSA:
http://celticchristianity.org/t39art.html
> a fake Roman Cathlic
"Is the Roman Catholic Church the Church of the Celts?
"The answer is "no" for two reasons. First, modern Roman Catholicism
has beliefs that differ from those of the Celtic churches. Here are
some Roman Catholic ideas which the Celtic churches did not share:
Roman Catholicism preaches that we are guilty of the sin of Adam; the
Pope can define doctrine; the ever Virgin Mary the Birthgiver of God
was conceived without ancestral sin; that the Holy Spirit originated
with the Father and the Son and not the Father alone; and the
infallibility of the Church abides in only one Bishop. Such ideas are
alien to Celtic Christian thought. The other reason Rome is not the
Church of the Celts is that Rome suppressed Celtic Christian churches
wherever it could. This first began in France under Charlemagne and
ended when Rome 'gave' Ireland to the English, by a "Donation" of an
English Pope to king Henry II ordering the suppression of the Irish
church. Before 1171 Ireland was a free country with its own churches
based on the authority of the Archbishop of Armagh. After 1172,
Ireland was under English occupation with a new church that was
obedient to Rome."
"Did the Synod of Whitby abolish all unique practices of the Celtic
churches and make the Celtic churches a part of the Roman church?
"The Synod of Whitby (664 A.D.) only affected the Celtic missions in
Northumbria in England. The primary issue was the calculation of the
date of Easter. At the time, only the communities of Iona and
Lindisfarne, whose missionaries were in Northumbria, followed a method
different from that of the rest of the Church. The rest of the Celtic
churches already followed the same method as the rest of the Church.
The Celtic churches were not brought under Roman authority at Whitby,
nor were their practices suppressed."
"What is the Orthodox position regarding the Immaculate Conception of
Mary, The Birthgiver of God?
"Participation in Redemption is offered only through the Mysteries of
Christ's Church. That Church is not present where the Faith is not
present. While the Church allows certain latitudes of interpretation,
those latitudes never cause confusion in Doctrine.
"The Holy Spirit, speaking through the Holy Seven Ecumenical Councils,
set guidelines for belief. No belief is compatible with the Truth if
it challenges the authenticity or fullness of the humanity received
and redeemed by our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son and
second Person of the Holy Trinity. No belief is compatible with the
Truth if it says that our Redemption comes through anyone other than
God.
"The union of our deficient humanity to Jesus Christ's Human and
Divine perfection is the basis of our Redemption. Jesus is the first
and only human born without original sin because He is the True God in
Whose image and likeness Adam was originally fashioned. At the moment
of His Conception at the Annunciation, Jesus Christ began the actual
restoration of our humanity to Adam's original state before the Fall.
He received our humanity from the Birthgiver of God and ever Virgin
Mary. Our redemption was completed in Jesus Christ's human Death on
the Cross when the Light of his Divinity overthrew our Death. At the
Resurrection and Ascension, humanity was raised to anew potential
higher than that of Adam, as Saint Leo the Great said, both in the
tome of St. Leo and St. Leo's prayers of the blessing of the Candle of
the Easter Vigil.
"The humanity of the Virgin had to be like ours. She shared the
deficiency of Original Sin. Otherwise, the humanity which Christ
received, renewed, and elevated to a new height is not our humanity.
"The Birthgiver of God, the ever virgin Mary is free of the stain of a
sinful life. She was also free of guilt inherited from Adam, as we all
are. Original Guilt is an error set forth by Blessed Augustine. That
error requires the error of the Immaculate Conception to explain the
Virgin Mary's freedom from the stain of that Guilt. Although Original
Sin is a fatal deficiency which makes us tend toward sin, it did not
impart guilt nor did it cut humanity off from God's Grace. Guilt is
only possible where there has been sin by the individual. We are told:
"Et in peccatis (and in sins) [interpreted as delictis (deficiencies)
by commentators] peperit me mater mea" (did my mother conceive me) [Ps
50: 7]. Deficiency is not guilt. Original Guilt confuses understanding
of our human nature and compromises belief in the humanity which
Christ received and redeemed.
"As has been shown, the ideas of the Immaculate conception and
Original Guilt are incompatible with Christian Theology of
Redemption."
>, a fake Celtic,
"Why do you call yourselves Celtic and Orthodox?
"The term "Celtic Orthodox" is not just a reference to our primary
form of worship. Like the original Celtic churchs, we hold the same
Orthodox Christian Faith and administer the same Sacraments as the
Undivided Church.
"Orthodox does not mean "Eastern"; it means "Correct Worship". So we
support all forms of Christian Worship that follow the original
Christian criteria for true Christian Ministry. Saint Irenaeus of
Lyons in Gaul, an ancient Celtic country, stated that churches are
members of the Body of Christ if they are united to it by Faith and
Grace. This means that a valid Christian church proclaims complete
Christian Doctrine without any compromise AND also administers
Sacraments by virtue of Apostolic Succession (Sacramental geneology of
Bishops back to Jesus Christ, God the Son). This is not only a
Celtic belief but once was a belief of all churches that call
themselves Orthodox Christian. Today, leaders of many churches, like
those involved with the World Council of Churches, no longer live by
that belief. They treat incorrect teachings as if they are valid
Faith. That is not Christian.
"We are Orthodox and reject any attempt, past or present, to
reinterpret the identity of Christ and His Church by altering Faith or
Sacraments. We call all who truly seek Christ and His Church to the
True, unaltered, Faith He taught and the Sacraments He instituted.
'As for those who pretend to confess the correct faith, but commune
with heretics, if they do not refrain from so doing after being
instructed, you should not only hold communion with them, but you
should not even call them brethren'
-- St. Basil the Great"
> fake Druids and Witches coven,
We run special ministries to those leaving such groups.
> a fake Orthodox,
See above under "fake Celtic".
> a fake Coptic
"Is the Coptic Church, Syrian (non-Chalcedonian) Church, or their
descendants the Church of the Celts?
"No. Those groups are monophysites who deny the fulness of the reality
of the conception and Birth of Christ as God/Man. They claim they do
not do this, but their churches always qualify their confessions of
Christ as God/Man. Therefore they are not a part of the chain of Faith
and Grace which the Celts consider an essential part of Christian
identity and necessary for valid Holy Orders and Sacraments.
"'Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if
they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
world. By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which
confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: And
every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is
Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now
already in the world.' (1 John 4: 1-3) and 'For many seducers are gone
out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the
flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist.' (2 John 7, the Epistles
of St. John.)
"This 'dissolving' of Jesus is the
'drop-of-fresh-water-in-the-vast-salt-water-ocean' analogy that is
constantly used by the non-Chalcedonians to explain their rejection of
the fulness of Christ's Incarnation even to this day. St. John knew
them for what they are: Graceless antichrists. Therefore no church
with succession from these groups are valid."
> and a fake
> seminary.
Is charging tuition a requirment for legitimacy of a seminary?
> From what I have heard, all use a lot of incense,
There are a maximum of three censings: one or two of the offerings,
and one of the Gospel. That is fewer than in the Byzantine Rite. One
need not take hearsay for this. The Missal is on line
http://celticchristianity.org/stowe.pdf .
a lot of
> hype and a lot of lavishness
The two apartments used by two of our missions are not lavish. Nor was
the side chapel used by our other mission.
Dmitri
>one else ever completed the course. Most found a paid degree program
>simpler.
Don't you mean more valid and accepted?
Dmitri Mosier
Iowa City, Iowa
++
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
>++ <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<3EC040CC...@erols.com>...
>Again, you are attempting to misdirect the discussion away from your
>original libel and just compounding it. None of our clergy have any
>succession from those lines.
>
Good to know. What IS the succession of your clergy. Please do correct
my misperception.
Wak-Wak
> descendants the Church of the Celts?
> "No. Those groups are monophysites who deny the fulness of the reality
> of the conception and Birth of Christ as God/Man. They claim they do
> not do this, but their churches always qualify their confessions of
> Christ as God/Man.
> and Grace which the Celts consider an essential part of Christian
> identity and necessary for valid Holy Orders and Sacraments.
<snip>
> 'drop-of-fresh-water-in-the-vast-salt-water-ocean' analogy that is
> constantly used by the non-Chalcedonians to explain their rejection of
> the fulness of Christ's Incarnation even to this day. St. John knew
> them for what they are: Graceless antichrists. Therefore no church
> with succession from these groups are valid."
the accusation of being a heretic." Abba Agathon said unto them, "The earlier things I accounted as profitable to my soul, but heresy meaneth separation from God, and I do not wish to be seaparated from God.""
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
-Abba Antony the Great
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
anonymous <arch...@erols.com> libeled the Celtic Orthodox Christian Church in message news:<3EB231AC...@erols.com> So here are a few things which might answer his/her confusion?They are primarily a homosexual group .We do not ordain homosexuals, nor condone homosexuality: essay from our Official answers document, dated late 1990s:
The same group runs a fake Protestant Episcopal Church,See our article on the foundation of the CoE and PECUSA: http://celticchristianity.org/t39art.html
Saint Irenaeus of Lyons in Gaul, an ancient Celtic country, stated that churches are members of the Body of Christ if they are united to it by Faith and Grace. This means that a valid Christian church proclaims complete Christian Doctrine without any compromise AND also administers Sacraments by virtue of Apostolic Succession (Sacramental geneology of Bishops back to Jesus Christ, God the Son). This is not only a Celtic belief but once was a belief of all churches that call themselves Orthodox Christian. Today, leaders of many churches, like those involved with the World Council of Churches, no longer live by that belief. They treat incorrect teachings as if they are valid Faith. That is not Christian. "We are Orthodox
and reject any attempt, past or present, to reinterpret the identity of Christ and His Church by altering Faith or Sacraments. We call all who truly seek Christ and His Church to the True, unaltered, Faith He taught and the Sacraments He instituted. 'As for those who pretend to confess the correct faith, but commune with heretics, if they do not refrain from so doing after being instructed, you should not only hold communion with them, but you should not even call them brethren' -- St. Basil the Great"fake Druids and Witches coven,We run special ministries to those leaving such groups.
a lot ofhype and a lot of lavishnessThe two apartments used by two of our missions are not lavish. Nor was the side chapel used by our other mission.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
An example of current Coptic errors: "The Nature of Christ" by Pope Shenouda. He skirts around monophysitism only to jump into another form of it: monothelitism: the denial of Jesus' human will, another denial of the fulness of his humanity.
The particular spin of the 1990's Agreed Statements' abuse of the terminology of St. Cyril of Alexandria which treats the union of Divinity and Humanity in the hypostasis of the Son as a concept rather than a reality also is a good example.
--
=================================================
Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
"If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
++ wrote:
>
>
>
>> We do not ordain homosexuals, nor condone homosexuality: essay from
>> our Official answers document, dated late 1990s:
>>
>
> Why not put that online?
Too many complaints from the SCOBA types. The problem was that the page
is more about other groups problems rather than about Christ's
ministry. So it was taken down late last year.
> This last statement seems like a form of Protestantism, open to an
> interpretation self made of what fulfills "original Christian
> criteria"
Taken out of context, perhaps, but the context is the Doctrine of the
Church, not a reinterpretation.
Actually, the belief that the majority or mainstream is the criteria for
Christianity is more of a Protestant idea.
>> There are a maximum of three censings: one or two of the offerings,
>> and one of the Gospel. That is fewer than in the Byzantine Rite.
>> One
>> need not take hearsay for this. The Missal is on line
>> http://celticchristianity.org/stowe.pdf .
>>
> 97 pages of PDF. Those who choose to leave or never join the Orthodox
> Christian Church may wish to await that very slow download to take a
> gander at it.
Then look elsewhere for it. Various sites have pirated html versions.
> Nice to hear. It would be nicer to hear that you all had joined a
> canonical jurisdiciton.
Actually, we are, based on the original criteria, and not that Anglican
stooge Metaxakis' definition (recognition by Constantinople) which
created a mutual admiration society apart from the Church.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
We do not follow the usual the secular school model for seminary training
but follow the tutor/instructor model. As a result, we do not have to
charge for instruction and Bishops know candidate's abilities since they
are involved in their training. It also prevents us from acquiring a
degree mill mentality since we have no financial interest in retaining
students. The program does not lead to a degree, nor is is a guarantee
of Ordination.
Dmitri wrote:
--
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
++ wrote:We do not ordain homosexuals, nor condone homosexuality: essay from our Official answers document, dated late 1990s:Why not put that online?Too many complaints from the SCOBA types. The problem was that the page is more about other groups problems rather than about Christ's ministry. So it was taken down late last year.This last statement seems like a form of Protestantism, open to an interpretation self made of what fulfills "original Christian criteria"Taken out of context, perhaps, but the context is the Doctrine of the Church, not a reinterpretation. Actually, the belief that the majority or mainstream is the criteria for Christianity is more of a Protestant idea.
Galina
97 pages of PDF. Those who choose to leave or never join the Orthodox Christian Church may wish to await that very slow download to take a gander at it.Then look elsewhere for it. Various sites have pirated html versions.
Nice to hear. It would be nicer to hear that you all had joined a canonical jurisdiciton.Actually, we are, based on the original criteria, and not that Anglican stooge Metaxakis' definition (recognition by Constantinople) which created a mutual admiration society apart from the Church.
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
Interesting statement as question, but no. I meant what I said. We do not follow the usual the secular school model for seminary training but follow the tutor/instructor model. As a result, we do not have to charge for instruction and Bishops know candidate's abilities since they are involved in their training. It also prevents us from acquiring a degree mill mentality since we have no financial interest in retaining students. The program does not lead to a degree, nor is is a guarantee of Ordination.
++
One of the most amusing aspects of your church is that you proclaim yourself an abbot while retaining a wife. Are y'all celebate? Have any kids?
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
One Deaconess was Ordained in 1998.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
> yourself an abbot while retaining a wife. Are y'all celebate? Have
> any kids
One child, a daughter. The title "Abbot" is not per Eastern usage but
per a Celtic convention a servant of those following a particular Rule
of Prayer and Life. I had hoped others would do that, but they did not
want the job.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
, ordaining who you likeHave you ever protested an ordination within your own group. Try it sometime and see whether the Bishop listens without good reason.
The Doctrine of the Church is within the Church.
We live it.One would hope that you would make the effort. Sadly no one in your group seems to have worked up the interest in enough people to reject the heresy that some of your leaders embrace and to which the rest give silent consent. You are far from the Church that rejected the Council of Florence or the Living Church. Until the time comes that such a movement occurs, we will pray for you and others like you but will have nothing to do with you.
GalinaA real name for a change.
There is an excellent English Orthodox website I go to sometimes with wonderful British Isles and Celtic saints lives and
Actually, we are, based on the original criteria, and not that Anglican stooge Metaxakis' definition (recognition by Constantinople) which created a mutual admiration society apart from the Church.The Orthodox Church is not run by Metaxakis. Nor is he regarded as holy. Your excuse is lame.
Yet you follow his definition that the criteria of the Church is
recognition by Constantinople. What was the OCA while Constantinople
would have nothing to do with it?
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
> I did not see a question.
The questions were on deaconesses and, since you proclaim yourself an
abbot while retaining a wife, "Are y'all celebate? Have any kids?
> Moreover, I do not recall corresponding with you about Deaconesses
> before you asked the question on this list, unless I know you by
> another name.
> One Deaconess was Ordained in 1998.
>
> <thread cleansed>
>
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
One of the most amusing aspects of your church is that you proclaim yourself an abbot while retaining a wife. Are y'all celebate? Have any kidsOne child, a daughter. The title "Abbot" is not per Eastern usage but per a Celtic convention a servant of those following a particular Rule of Prayer and Life. I had hoped others would do that, but they did not want the job.
--
=================================================
Celtic Orthodox Christian Church
"If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
Galina
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
> Self ordained? No. Interesting phantasy you have going there. The
> requisite numbers voted.
Who were these "numbers"
> The requisite numbers laid on hands.
Who were these minions?
> You are just adding to the pile of lies you set forth days ago. I not
> only worry about you but your poor father confessor who has to deal
> with your repeated sin of lying.
Don't add to your misery the burden of contemplating my miserable
worthlessness. As for my confessor, he, like God, has a fine sense of
humor.
> ++ wrote:
>
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
> ++ wrote:
>
>> , ordaining who you like
>
> Have you ever protested an ordination within your own group.
Actually, yes
> Try it sometime and see whether the Bishop listens without good reason.
There was good reasonor i wouldn't have wasted the Bishop's time
>> The Doctrine of the Church is within the Church.
>
> Yes indeed, but some have followed the Living Church movement of the
> 1920s into the WCC and left the Church entirely.
no one I know
>> We live it.
>
> One would hope that you would make the effort. Sadly no one in your
> group seems to have worked up the interest in enough people to reject
> the heresy that some of your leaders embrace and to which the rest
> give silent consent. You are far from the Church that rejected the
> Council of Florence or the Living Church.
You sho bout that, boy?
> Until the time comes that such a movement occurs, we will pray for
> you and others like you but will have nothing to do with you.
Oh, please do pray for me and I will pray for you. What's your
Christian name?
>> Galina
>
> A real name for a change.
>
>>There is an excellent English Orthodox website I go to sometimes with wonderful British Isles and Celtic saints lives and
>>
> A Byzantine run site, but a good one.
>
>>Actually, we are, based on the original criteria, and not that Anglican
>>stooge Metaxakis' definition (recognition by Constantinople) which
>>created a mutual admiration society apart from the Church.
>>
>> The Orthodox Church is not run by Metaxakis. Nor is he regarded as
>> holy. Your excuse is lame.
>
>
> Yet you follow his definition that the criteria of the Church is
> recognition by Constantinople. What was the OCA while Constantinople
> would have nothing to do with it?
>
Wherever did I ever imply that much less say it? Orthodoxy has no
infallible pope.
Wak-Wak
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
-Abba Antony the Great
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De" <epmae...@celticchristianity.org> wrote in message news:3EC162FE...@celticchristianity.org...
James+
(Abbot-Bishop Maelruain) wrote:
>"This 'dissolving' of Jesus is the
>'drop-of-fresh-water-in-the-vast-salt-water-ocean' analogy that is
>constantly used by the non-Chalcedonians to explain their rejection of
>the fulness of Christ's Incarnation even to this day.
Dear Your Grace Bishop Maelruain,
Peace and grace are with you as I
kiss your hand. Thank you for the above information. I have studied
this issue for some years and read a number of works on the debate but
am still a poor student of such deep theology. Could you please direct
me to the work/book where -any- Coptic Orthodox Bishop/Patriarch has
stated in writing or other that Christ's nature was like "a drop of
fresh water in the ocean of salt water."? Since you have above stated
that it is 'constantly' used by the Non-Chalcedonians, my request
should not be to hard to fulfill. I shall look forward to the
supplying of such important evidence.
Thanking you for your attention to this matter, I remain your son in
the faith of Jesus Christ our Lord.
James+
"If the world is against Athanasius,
then Athanasius is against the world."
St Athanasius.
leushino
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3EC1591...@erols.com...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
It's funny how that book was presented before the committee, and they didn't have a problem with it...
I would not expect a commitee sympathetic to non-Chalcedonian Christology to find objections. I was rather surprised to see such a thing published when the non-Chalcedonians are trying to impress upon the world that the whole matter was a difference over semantics. Semantics is one thing, but there is still a serious matter of concepts, as the Athonite analysis shows.
Could you point out how he skirts around? I would venture to guess that you don't really understand it or his terminology at all.
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha! "A man's life or death cometh from his neigbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God."
-Abba Antony the Great
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De" <epmae...@celticchristianity.org> wrote in message news:3EC162FE...@celticchristianity.org...Christ is Risen!
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
can discover that information, but I will not submit them to your
disrepectful, unOrthodox behavior.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
Good, it must have been serious.>> The Doctrine of the Church is within the Church.
> >
> > Yes indeed, but some have followed the Living Church movement of the
> > 1920s into the WCC and left the Church entirely.
>
> no one I know
Interesting. So you claim that you do not know the groups whose representatives are listed below?
Metropolitan Damaskinos
Co-President
(Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Prof. Vlassios Phidas
Co-Secretary
(Greek Orth. Patr. Alexandria)
Prof. Athanasios Arvanitis
(Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Metropolitan Chrysostomos
of Peristerion
(Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Ecumenical Patriarchate
Prof. Father George Dragas
Greek Orth. Patr. Alexandria
Metropolitan Petros of Aksum
Greek Orth. Patr. Antioch
Metropolitan George Khodr
Metropolitan Damaskinos
Russian Patriarchate
Mr. Nikolai Zabolotski
Russian patriarchate
Mr. Grigorij Skobej
Serbian Patriarchate
Prof. Stojan Gosevic
Bulgarian Patriarchate
Dr. Ivan Zhelev Dimitrov
Gregorian Patriarchate
Metropolitan David of Sukhum
Gregorian Patriarchate
Mr. Boris Gagua
Church of Cyprus
Horepiskopos Barnabas of Salamis
Church of Cyprus
Prof. Andreas Papavasiliou
Church of Greece
Metropolitan Meletios of Nikopolis
Church of Greece
Prof. Father John Romanides
Polish Orthodox Church
Bishop Jeremiasz of Wroclaw
per
Metropolitan Damaskinos
Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia
Bishop Christoforos of Olomouc
Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia
Father Joseph Hauser
Finish Orthodox Church
Father Heikki Huttunen
per
Metropolitan Damaskinos
These are the churches and their representatives signed the Agreed Statements with the non-Chalcedonians which set the writings
of the Councils on their head by allowing an interpretation of the Incarnation of Christ and fully human/fully Divine to be
treated as a concept rather than a reality.
>
>
> >> We live it.
> >
> > One would hope that you would make the effort. Sadly no one in your
> > group seems to have worked up the interest in enough people to reject
> > the heresy that some of your leaders embrace and to which the rest
> > give silent consent. You are far from the Church that rejected the
> > Council of Florence or the Living Church.
>
> You sho bout that, boy?
>
> > Until the time comes that such a movement occurs, we will pray for
> > you and others like you but will have nothing to do with you.
>
> Oh, please do pray for me and I will pray for you. What's your
> Christian name?
>
Maelruain after the founder of Tallaght Monastery in the 800s.
>
>
> Wherever did I ever imply that much less say it? Orthodoxy has no
> infallible pope.
A perhaps a light is at the end of this discussion.
Wak-Wak
That is why I ask you to show any heretical writings in our church from now or any century. Even St. Dioscorus himself was never condemned for heresy at the Council of Chalcedon.
"Considering, therefore, as I said, the manner of His incarnation we see that His two natures came together with each other in an indissoluble union, without blending and without change, for His flesh is flesh and not divinity, even though his flesh became the flesh of God, and likewise the Word also is God and not flesh, even though He made the flesh His own according to the dispensation. Therefore, whenever we have these thoughts in no way do we harm the joining into a unity by saying that he was of two natures, but after the union we do not separate the natures from one another, nor do we cut the one and indivisible Son into two sons but we say that there is one Son, and as the holy Fathers have said, there is one fusiV of the Word (of God) made flesh.
Therefore, as far as concerns our understanding and only the contemplation by the eyes of the soul in what manner the only begotten became man. We say that they are two natures which are united, but that Christ the son and Lord is one, the Word of God the Father made and incarnate. And, if it seems best, let us accept as an example the composition in our own selves by which we are men. For we are composed of soul and body and we see two natures the one being the nature of the body and the other the nature of the soul. But there is one from both in unity, a man. And because man is composed of two natures, this does not make two men, but one, but one and the same man through the composition." - Letter to Succensus Bishop of Diocaesarea
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neigbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God."
-Abba Antony the Great
Wak-Wak
Therefore, as far as concerns our understanding and only the contemplation by the eyes of the soul in what manner the only begotten became man. We say that they are two natures which are united, but that Christ the son and Lord is one, the Word of God the Father made and incarnate. And, if it seems best, let us accept as an example the composition in our own selves by which we are men. For we are composed of soul and body and we see two natures the one being the nature of the body and the other the nature of the soul. But there is one from both in unity, a man. And because man is composed of two natures, this does not make two men, but one, but one and the same man through the composition." - Letter to Succensus Bishop of Diocaesarea
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neigbour; if we benefit our brother we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God."
-Abba Antony the Great
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
It is sufficient that I have endured the libel of a layman.
I am sure you can discover that information, but I will not submit them to your disrepectful, unOrthodox behavior.
By the way, are you bapitized? Chrismated?
Box 72102 Akron Ohio 44372 (330)867-3685
http://CelticChristianity.org
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
I only personally know three of the above. Instead of making blanket
statements and outrageous assumptions, why not post the document and
discuss it?
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> my misperception.
As stated before it is Ukrainian (see below), however, as stated
before, although you probably could learn the names of those directly
involved, I will not offer them for your disrespect:
Patriarch GREGORIOS IV of Antioch
165th Successor to Peter the Apostle of
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
with Metropolitan ANTHONY (Khrapovitsky)ROC
and 7 other Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
Restored the Orthodox Episcopate to the vacant sees of the
Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Poland in March of 1913 by
Consecrating
Metropolitan DIONISIJ (Valedynskyj)POC
who with Archbishop FEODOSIJ (Feodosiev)POC,
Archbishop OLEKSIJ (Hromadskyj) POC,
Bishop SIMON (Ivanovskyj)POC, and Bishop SAVA (Sovyetov)POC
Restored the Orthodox Episcopate to Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox
Church in 1932 by Consecrating
Metropolitan POLIKARP (Sikorsky) of Kiev UAOC,
who with Archbishop OLEXANDER (Inozemtsev)UAOC,
and Bishop YURI (Korenastov)UAOC
With Metropolitan DIONISIJ's blessing on February 9, 1942 Consecrated
Archbishop NIKANOR (Abramovych)UAOC
who with Archbishop IHOR (Huba) UAOC, Bishop MANUYIL (Tarnavskyj)
UAOC,
Bishop MYKHAYIL (Khoroshyj) UAOC, Bishop MSTYSLAV (Skrypnyk) UAOC
and Bishop SYLVESTER (Haevskyj)UAOC on May 17, 1942 by Consecrated
Metropolitan HRYHORIJ (Ohijchuk) [Reposed 1985]UAOC
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> I've never considered do-it -yourself theology Orthodox. Why do you?
We do not make up Orthodox Theology. That is why we reject the idea
that an Orthodox church can be a member of an organization like the
WCC which says that all of its members' conflicting doctrines are
valid OR that an Orthodox church can consent to statements which
contain ideas rejected by the Ecumenical Council. However, this is
accepted by "mainstream" "Orthodox" churches such as the one you are
defending. Rather than complain about those who have, in obedience
to canons, walled themselves off from such groups, why not go to your
Metropolitan and say that you want him to sever ties from those who
are either in the WCC or signed the Agreed Statements.
> By the way, are you bapitized? Chrismated?
Yes. Both.
I see that you are not going to repudiate your original libels.
Does your "Priest" give you the "Eucharist" while you are in this
state of sin? Will you confess that you bore false witness before you
accept Christ into your mouth?
leushino
computer and pound away post after post after post. I suppose that you're
being a member of a vagante group gives you a great deal of time to play at
being something you aren't and attempting to convince others of what we all
know ISN'T. You're hilarious, really. About every year or so a character
like you comes along and fills the group with his silliness.. actually
thinking he is presenting an air-tight case for his delusions. However, in
time he tires of his game when he realizes he's convinced no one and that we
still know what he truly is: a phoney.
Anyway... I'm sure that many, like me, are highly amused with your
outlandish claims. So... I'll put on the popcorn, sit back and enjoy today's
entertainment. Carry on.
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain" <epmae...@CelticChristianity.org> wrote in
message news:3f626f72.03051...@posting.google.com...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> why not post the document and
> discuss it?
The original document:
http://pharos.bu.edu/cn/articles/OrthodoxUnityDialog.txt
Note the Severus of Antioch style spin on Cyril of Alexandria's "in
thought alone."
The Athonite analysis covers many of the objections:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_athos.htm
(see Article V. on the problem of how "in thought alone" was used in
the statement).
leushino
computer and pound away post after post after post. I suppose that you're
being a member of a vagante group gives you a great deal of time to play at
being something you aren't and attempting to convince others of what we all
know ISN'T. You're hilarious, really. About every year or so a character
like you comes along and fills the group with his silliness.. actually
thinking he is presenting an air-tight case for his delusions. However, in
time he tires of his game when he realizes he's convinced no one and that we
still know what he truly is: a phoney.
Anyway... I'm sure that many, like me, are highly amused with your
outlandish claims. So... I'll put on the popcorn, sit back and enjoy today's
entertainment. Carry on.
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain" <epmae...@CelticChristianity.org> wrote in
message news:3f626f72.03051...@posting.google.com...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
Christ is Risen!
No, it should not be hard. It is interesting to note that much on the
internet has changed since this article was originally posted on our
site some years ago. Perhaps it is having its desired effect. I will
check backup files that were downloaded, and publications that were
used as source materials and get back to you.
Pax Christi
+Maelruain, Cele De
James+ wrote in message news:<3ec1b2b2...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
leushino
computer and pound away post after post after post. I suppose that you're
being a member of a vagante group gives you a great deal of time to play at
being something you aren't and attempting to convince others of what we all
know ISN'T. You're hilarious, really. About every year or so a character
like you comes along and fills the group with his silliness.. actually
thinking he is presenting an air-tight case for his delusions. However, in
time he tires of his game when he realizes he's convinced no one and that we
still know what he truly is: a phoney.
Anyway... I'm sure that many, like me, are highly amused with your
outlandish claims. So... I'll put on the popcorn, sit back and enjoy today's
entertainment. Carry on.
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain" <epmae...@CelticChristianity.org> wrote in
message news:3f626f72.0305...@posting.google.com...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
Your note brings me back to the lament that caused this church to wall
off from the rest:
Many Copts do believe in Christian Christology and state it clearly
without equivocation. Sadly a minority that prefers vague language
that allows error insisted on language in the Agreed Statements that
all parties accepted.
That is what raised concern that the monophysite heresy was not a dead
as we all had hoped.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
not nor have I ever been, the message or "the product" I attempt to
impart. Jesus Christ is. The fact that a false Christ was accepted by
the signatories of the Agreed Statements is only taken lightly who
treat religion as an observer sport.
"leushino" <leus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vc4kdac...@corp.supernews.com>...
> LOL... you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to sit at your
Actually, initially I thought allocating some time to this because I
do not believe I should be suing arch...@erols.com who rather than
retract her original libel just repeats builds upon it.
I have informed Gail of my complaint.
I have done so in the company of others.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
thread, but was answered on a different thread.
I will state for the record:
In obedience to the canons, this church has no formal relations with
"mainstream" Orthodox churches.
This is because some hold ideas that contradict
the Doctrinal Statements of the Ecumenical Councils
and the rest are in communion them.
For an analysis of just one such contradiction see:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_athos.htm
For our Statement of Faith which is in accord
with the Fathers and the Councils see:
http://CelticChristianity.org/horosm.html
We have open doors to individuals who embrace Christian Doctrine and
wish to follow pre-Schism practices. We also seek the restoration of
the Orthodoxy of all one-time Orthodox churches through repudiation of
falsehood and rectification of their Sacraments.
We have married Bishops per the traditions of the Celtic Orthodox
Christian martyrs who died with their wives and children in internment
camps under the Roman Catholics because they refused to cooperate or
intercommune with a majority that set themselves against Christian
Doctrine.
Some might contend that their martyrdom was a failure since none of
their contemporaries were inspired to reject errors and the Byzantines
ignored their murder. Yet they motivate us to try again. Although we
draw inspiration from them we are not a nationalist or cultural
movement: the Celtic churches' primary legacy was missionary work
among all cultures.
May Christ's Peace be upon all.
May the Light of Christ illumine all.
+Maelruain, Cele De
leushino
What on earth are you talking about?
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain" <epmae...@CelticChristianity.org> wrote in
message news:3f626f72.03051...@posting.google.com...
leushino
Okay...that's cool. Well.. I'll stick with the Real thing, thank you very
much.
"Abbot-Bishop Maelruain" <epmae...@CelticChristianity.org> wrote in
message news:3f626f72.03051...@posting.google.com...
Wak-Wak
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
-Abba Antony the Great
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> LOL... you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to sit at your
not nor have I ever been, the message or "the product" I attempt to
impart. Jesus Christ is. The fact that a false Christ was accepted by
the signatories of the Agreed Statements is only taken lightly who
treat religion as an observer sport.
Actually, initially I thought allocating some time to this because I
do not believe I should be suing arch...@erols.com who rather than
retract her original libel just repeats builds upon it.
I have informed Gail of my complaint.
I have done so in the company of others.
Now I realize that this is going nowhere. The original lies were
never retracted. Instead other issues were introduced to skirt the
original issues. So I leave her to whatever her confessor can do for
her.
Yes, we have mutual issues, but not the issues that were stated in the
libel.
Yet it is treated as if those issues some how validate the initial
misstatement of facts. Like the responses to my Doctrinal questions,
it ignores reality. That is not a good example of Byzantine argument,
and is certainly not Orthodox or Christian in any form. We are
further apart than I thought.
You are correct: I am wasting a great deal of time on this. The
initial libel was answered with real facts. That is sufficient.
James+
(Abbot-Bishop Maelruain) wrote:
>Dear Father (?),
>Christ is Risen!
He Is Risen Indeed!
>
>No, it should not be hard. It is interesting to note that much on the
>internet has changed since this article was originally posted on our
>site some years ago. Perhaps it is having its desired effect. I will
>check backup files that were downloaded, and publications that were
>used as source materials and get back to you.
Thank you for your assistance in this regard. I apologise for the
trouble, but since I am a defender of the Copts/Orientals, it is only
fair for that I have all of the facts before me and if any Oriental
Bishop declared the words you said then this would be most
unfortunate.
Sinner Fr James.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+ we still kind of wince at the terminology used by the Chalcedonians -It took months to stop wincing when I heard the term "Hypostasis" since I knew its historical provenance. Before it was adopted by Greek Christian Theologians, it was used for some time to mean an emanation and thereby something lesser. St. Spyridon's lament that it was simpler to say "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" than all that talk of Hypostases..
However the danger of attempting the Incarnation without understanding of the unity of the natures united withour diminution or confusion in the Hypostasis of the Son is that one is in danger of believing that Christ's humanity assumed Divinity which is the error of Nestorios or that Divinity merely put on humanity which is the error of some other groups.
--
=================================================
Wak-Wak
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
While you might find this sinner a joke, do not misunderstand: I am, not nor have I ever been, the message or "the product" I attempt to impart. Jesus Christ is. The fact that a false Christ was accepted by the signatories of the Agreed Statements is only taken lightly who treat religion as an observer sport.
"leushino" <leus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vc4kdac...@corp.supernews.com>...LOL... you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to sit at yourActually, initially I thought allocating some time to this because I do not believe I should be suing arch...@erols.com who rather than retract her original libel just repeats builds upon it. I have informed Gail of my complaint. I have done so in the company of others.
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
>Interesting. This message was apparently duplicated under this
>thread, but was answered on a different thread.
>
>I will state for the record:
>
>In obedience to the canons, this church has no formal relations with
>"mainstream" Orthodox churches.
> This is because some hold ideas that contradict
> the Doctrinal Statements of the Ecumenical Councils
> and the rest are in communion them.
> For an analysis of just one such contradiction see:
> http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_athos.htm
> For our Statement of Faith which is in accord
> with the Fathers and the Councils see:
> http://CelticChristianity.org/horosm.html
>
>We have open doors to individuals who embrace Christian Doctrine and
>wish to follow pre-Schism practices.
>
They differed. This netgroup is a relatively academic one. That means
that most of us have read all or most the basic sources - which is a
quite large truckload of Ante and Post Nicene, Byzantine , and modern
sources., the canons themselves and have a fair knowledge of services of
various kinds, the Bible, church music, etc. You need not generalize.
you can be quite specific about your judgements of all the Orthodox
churches. Considering you are in communion with no one, no one of you
is ordained by an Orthodox bishop in a normal jurisdiction, that you
ordain women and have such unique peculiarities as married abbots (goes
against the normal reason for being a monk - my opinion and the opinion
commentary on the council as well - The reason for instituting celebacy
throughout the Church was so that the monks would not be distracted by
"worldly cares", not just putting them aside for the odd liturgy, but
every abundant hour awake.
Way I see it, you can convert to Orthodoy any time you like. But do you
like it? It doesn't seem apparent.So why are you and your St. Vlad's
dropout pal (don't get me wrong - I have a few friends I love dearly who
dropped out of St. Vlad's or finished and never became either clergy or
finished without eventually working in the Church - but all work FOR the
Church, one way or another) so intent on using the word Orthodox in the
title of your self made Protestant religion.? Why not Temple of the All
Holy Pentacostal Do-it-Yourself Jesus Affirming True Holiness Mission or
somesuch?
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
We do not make up Orthodox Theology.
That is why we reject the idea that an Orthodox church can be a member of an organization like the WCC which says that all of its members' conflicting doctrines are valid OR that an Orthodox church can consent to statements which contain ideas rejected by the Ecumenical Council. However, this is accepted by "mainstream" "Orthodox" churches such as the one you are defending.
Rather than complain about those who have, in obedience to canons, walled themselves off from such groups,
By the way, how are your donations going? What do you all do in your real jobs? ex.One "Orthodox" "priestess" I know (who said once nauseatingly fulfilled her fantasies by stating "really you ought to call me a priest not a priestess, since using priestess is catering to Patriarchal bulls''t and I do like to be called Mother but I don't want anyone to confuse me with a Mother Superior because I have a very healthy and fulfilling sex life ,,,") has a day job as a water aerobics instructor at various local area gymnasiums. She is a GREAT water aerobics instructor. But I don't think I would worship at any of here religious "events"
why not go to your Metropolitan and say that you want him to sever ties from those who are either in the WCC or signed the Agreed Statements.
By the way, are you baptized? Chrismated?Yes. Both.
Did you leave the church in which you were baptized? Chrismated. Both? Either? Are you self baptized or chrismated? (This includes other members of your church)
I see that you are not going to repudiate your original libels.
I remember how power it sounded to me to hear a recounting of a Serbian bishop recounting how the separate renewed Montenegrin Church bishop went in public to chuck his bishop's crown on his own head. But in his case it is not as shocking as the religion you and your pal made up because:
1. The Montenegrin church existed separately before political takeover by Serbia and, last but not least:
2. The bishop had previously been ordained a number of times by the Serbian Church. I hope you see the difference.
Does your "Priest" give you the "Eucharist" while you are in this state of sin? Will you confess that you bore false witness before you accept Christ into your mouth?
++
leushino wrote:
LOL... you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to sit at your computer and pound away post after post after post. I suppose that you're being a member of a vagante group gives you a great deal of time to play at being something you aren't and attempting to convince others of what we all know ISN'T. You're hilarious, really. About every year or so a character like you comes along and fills the group with his silliness.. actually thinking he is presenting an air-tight case for his delusions. However, in time he tires of his game when he realizes he's convinced no one and that we still know what he truly is: a phoney.
Anyway... I'm sure that many, like me, are highly amused with your outlandish claims. So... I'll put on the popcorn, sit back and enjoy today's entertainment. Carry on.
++
leushino wrote:
GalinaAre you certain that Fr Seraphim Rose was a homosexual? How do you know this?
He said it. He wrote it. He struggled against it. And, as I have said previously, (look back maybe one, maybe two years) he may become (dispite his zen and tollhouses) our first acknowledged gay saint?
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message news:3EC1591...@erols.com...
++
This isn't a regular lineage of bishops. But then, you know that
June R Harton
For the record, Gail Schneider is a member of the Schismatic Fyromian
''Orthodox'' group.
Way I see it, you can convert to Orthodoy any time you like. But do you
like it? It doesn't seem apparent.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> that it is 'constantly' used by the Non-Chalcedonians, my request
> should not be to hard to fulfill. I shall look forward to the
> supplying of such important evidence.
>
Father James,
Christ is Risen!
As promised, I have reviewed the sources that were used for the
article that was cited by me on this newsgroup.
Some of the sources were quite old and therefore not appropriate to
discussions about contemporary beliefs. Some sources merely contained
charges by others. Yet none of the contemporary non-Chalcedonian
sources that were used for the article embraced the "drop of fresh
water in a vast sea" metaphor that is a paraphrase of Eutychius'
metaphor for his heretical idea. Thank God. The original article
will be amended to reflect that fact.
I thank you for calling that misstatement of fact to my attention. I
apologise for quoting statements on this newsgroup to the effect that
the salt/fresh water metaphor is in use by contemporary
non-Chalcedonians. As I stated elsewhere, the issues that continue
to separate the non-Chalcedonian and Chalcedonian are not due the
Christology held by many non-Chalcedonians. It is due to the views of
a group that has, so far, insisted on vague language in any agreement
on Doctrine. With prayer, this will be resolved.
(Yes folks, this is how one apologizes.)
Pax Christi.
+Maelruain, Cele De
http://CelticChristianity.org
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
No, I do not have much time. Yet I do attempt to write notes
individually. Yes, sometimes I copy text like this, but I try to
include something specific.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain
> Huh?
> What on earth are you talking about?
Thank you for pointing out the typo. I see my typing skills are as
they always were. What I meant to say is:
"The fact that a false Christ was accepted by the signatories of the
Agreed Statements is only taken lightly by people who treat religion
as an observer sport." Sorry, but your image of people sitting about
with pop corn was most apt.
Thank you for also pointing out that I was wasting time on this
newsgroup.
Attempt was made to correct libel. That is all I should expect to
have accomplished. Sad that it all came of sending out Paschal
greetings.
Christ is Risen!
Pax Christi
James+
(Abbot-Bishop Maelruain) wrote:
Dear your Grace Bishop Maelruain,
>Father James,
>Christ is Risen!
He is Risen Indeed!
>
>As promised, I have reviewed the sources that were used for the
>article that was cited by me on this newsgroup.
Thank you for your time and effort.
>
>Some of the sources were quite old and therefore not appropriate to
>discussions about contemporary beliefs.>>>>>> Some sources merely contained
>charges by others.<<<<<<
Yes I knew that would be the case as I have myself formerly fallen
into the trap of just repeating oft told inaccuracies, which seem to
take on an air of truthfulness over time. In fact the statement is
from Eutyches the heretic whom both families of Orthodox anathematise.
It is not an Oriental Orthodox statement at all and in fact Pope
Shenouda III outright rejects it in the Book you referred to at page
14, I quote:
""D) The Heresy of Eutyches (Eutychianism)
Euthyches was an Archimandrite of a monastery in Constantinople. He
zealously opposed the Nestorian heresy, and was so highly concerned
about the unity of the two natures in Christ, which Nestorius tore
apart, that he fell into another heresy. Euthyches said that the human
nature was absorbed and dissolved in the divine Nature as a drop of
vinegar in the ocean." page 14, "The Nature of Christ" Pope Shenouda
III, 3rd Print, March, 1997
Here we see this "drop of liquid in the whole sea" analogy attributed
to Eutyches and denied as heresy by Pope Shenouda III. Since I knew
that Oriental Bishops would -never- use that statement to describe
their theology I decided to call you up on that aspect of your words.
Forgive my impertinence, but I believed that truth and honesty
necessitated my question. I note with joy your grace and humility in
acknowledging this error in thought and word and the correction. A
true example of Christian grace.
>Yet none of the contemporary non-Chalcedonian
>sources that were used for the article embraced the "drop of fresh
>water in a vast sea" metaphor that is a paraphrase of Eutychius'
>metaphor for his heretical idea. Thank God. The original article
>will be amended to reflect that fact.
Thank you your Grace. Perhaps you may also include the denial I have
supplied with relevant reference from Pope Shenouda III as well so
that this falsehood may be stopped in its tracks. It is one of the
common arguments used by some from time to time and needs to be dealt
with as it is false.
>
>I thank you for calling that misstatement of fact to my attention. I
>apologise for quoting statements on this newsgroup to the effect that
>the salt/fresh water metaphor is in use by contemporary
>non-Chalcedonians.
Forgive my impertinence in bringing the matter up publically. I
considered a private email but since the allegation was made in this
public room I thought it best that it be corrected here.
> As I stated elsewhere, the issues that continue
>to separate the non-Chalcedonian and Chalcedonian are not due the
>Christology held by many non-Chalcedonians.
Amen and amen. The Christology of the Non-Chalcedonians is -orthodox-
and -not- heretical at all. Dioscorus was anathematised at Chalcedon
for NON ATTENDANCE and NOT heresy, Of course Orientals claim he was
under imperial guard house arrest at the time. The Coptic Orthodox
Church is not a heretical Church at all.
> It is due to the views of
>a group that has, so far, insisted on vague language in any agreement
>on Doctrine. With prayer, this will be resolved.
Whilst I would disagree that they are vague unless your grace means
they refuse to give up their One Nature of Christ the Word of God
theology from St Cyril and thus speak of two Natures, apart from this
I agree prayer and a removal of pride and anathemas will solve this
issue. I might add that any monophysites -would- be heretics and St
Mark of Ephuses was right, monophysites -are- herestics. Just that
Orientals are -not- monophysites, rather miaphysites (One from Two
without any mingling, confusion or seperation). This is the same as my
calling Eastern Orthodox duophysites, by their embracing Two Natures
they do not mean 'seperate' as Nestorius did, but it can be alleged to
be so quite easily. Regarding the 'vague' language your grace has
referred to I quote the Agreed Statement on Christology between the
two families of Orthodox, which does not seem to me to be vague at all
as it confirms Christs perfect Humanity and anathematises Eutyches.
Quote:
"Agreed Statement on Christology.
"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the
Incarnate-Logos is perfect in His Divinity and >>>>>>>>>>>perfect in
His Humanity.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< He made His humanity One with His
Divinity without mixture, nor mingling, nor confusion. His Divinity
was not seperated from His Humanity even for a moment or a twinkling
of an eye. At the same time, we anathematise the doctrines of
Nestorius and Eutyches."
Page 47, Ibid.
>(Yes folks, this is how one apologizes.)
A good example for some on this board.
>
>Pax Christi.
>+Maelruain, Cele De
>http://CelticChristianity.org
Please remember my weakness in your prayers. We have spoken before
your grace in a series of emails regarding "What it is to be a
Christian" where I promoted the concept of the Holy Oil at Chrismation
being the mark of our Christianness. Your grace in that series
promoted the idea of right faith/belief being necessary. Do you
recall my weak self?
sinner James+
James+
For Information Only. Below is the agreed statement between the Greek
Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria
that they have common pastoral concerns and agreed statement on
Christolgy. From:http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state05.html
"Official Statements
Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox
Patriarchates of Alexandria
Since the Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek
Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already
accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between
the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the
two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989
in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of
anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, in
which it is stated that "In the light of our agreed statement on
Christology..., we have now clearly understood that both families have
always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological
faith, and the unbroken continuity of Apostolic tradition". It was
agreed to have mutual recognition of the sacrament of Baptism, based
on what St Paul wrote, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5)
But since up until now we are waiting for the responses of the Holy
Synods of some other churches in both families, the restoration of
full communion is not yet reached between the two sides of the
bi-lateral dialogue. And due to the pastoral consequences and
implications caued by mixed Christian marriages between the members of
the two Patriarchates of Alexandria, having the majority of their
people living in the same countries. Those marriages being difficult
to perform in both Churches at the same time or in concelebration. The
result is that mant sensitivities are created between the two families
of the partners of such marriage. Those sensitivities which can extend
even after the marriage and may affect the relation between the two
communities of churches.
For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates
have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in
either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners
not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their
origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate
from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and
indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.
Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its
other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.
It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage
shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen
concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the
unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the
year 1999.
Each Patriarchate shall preserve its right not to give its sacraments
to any persons whom she does not find fulfilling its canons according
to the Apostolic Tradition.
Petros VII
Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa
Shenouda III
Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St Mark
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
> However the danger of attempting TO UNDERSTAND the Incarnation without
Wak-Wak
+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+
Your grace,
(after kissing your right hand and offerning a metanoia)
I apologize that I avoided referring to you as your grace because I was told
that you were not actually a Bishop, and I was weary of referring to you as
such if you were not. I see that your were canonically ordained, and I ask
your forgiveness for not according to you the honour due unto your holy
order.
"However the danger of attempting the Incarnation without understanding of
the unity of the natures united withour diminution or confusion in the
Hypostasis of the Son is that one is in danger of believing that Christ's
humanity assumed Divinity which is the error of Nestorios or that Divinity
merely put on humanity which is the error of some other groups."
Naturally, this we know. Pope Shenouda and all the Oriental Orthodox
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
"A man's life or death cometh from his neigbour; if we benefit our brother
we benefit ourselves, and if we offend him we sin against God."
-Abba Antony the Great
news:3EC4546D...@celticchristianity.org...
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
As I said before, many Copts understand. They have to tell their
representatives to joint discussions that they want specific, clear language in
any and all future statements. Until then, language that permits a broad
latitude of beliefs condemns all that agree to it as well as those who maintain
Communion with them.
The Agreed Statements of the early 1990s are dangerous to all right believers
whose church leaders do not repudiate such erroneous statements.
Wak-Wak
--
Agape,
Wak-Wak
Amen, maranatha!
-Abba Antony the Great
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain wrote:
Again, what was the libel? Someone asked about your group. We discussed your group. Please
reconsider your singular path and come to the Lifegiving source of all holy Wisdom, i.e.
Orthodoxy. You know a little about it. You appear to admire it. But rather than join it , you
seem to use it as rhetoric for your cult.Consider while you rail against ecumenism that there are
many aspects of your cult that absolutely positively do not correspond to Orthodox but rathr ot a
specious interpretation of some early medieval characters. I wish you the best. I wish you life
everlasting. I hope you join us.
Galina
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
> Again, what was the libel? Someone asked about your group. We discussed your group.
No, you immediately assumed something and published it. Until yesterday, you did not even attempt
approximate a repudiation of your libel, but even then you it was "substantiated ... except the
matter of incense." The character of your entries is a good example as to why we have nothing to
do with your group.
The "mainstream" proclaims agreements with other groups but, rather than joining all involved to
the Church, those agreements introduce false ideas that separate all of the participants from the
Church. This sad love of darkness has to end.
As I said yesterday, I have wasted enough time on this matter.
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De
May God bless you and yours.
Valid question. Of concern regarding Pope Shenouda's book is that sections of it can be taken for an exposition on monothelitism, the idea that Christ lacked a human will, with a thin veneer of Chalcedonian Christology. Based on what happened with the dialogue in the early 1990's many are being very cautious.
The problems with the Agreed Statements are outlined in great detail in the Athonite document http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mono_athos.htm , but to me the primary issue trouble is odd use of St. Cyril's "in thought alone". St. Cyril stated that the unity and distinction of the Natures of Christ are to be considered in thought alone: they are reality that we can neither understand nor really even describe. Severus of Antioch was later deposed for saying that the unity and distinction "IS in thought alone" This meant we are merely speaking of a concept. Some argue that Severus did not mean to say such a thing, but that is not the point: the idea caught on in some circles and it is that idea that many readers, including the Athonites, found in the Agreed statements.
Based on such analysis as that by Athos, another set of agreements should be set forth correcting the others. Sadly I have encountered a few Coptic theologians who refused to reject the "IS in thought alone" phrasing and the idea that we are only speaking of a concept. It is those types that will continue to scuttle the agreement process since they will repeatedly attempt to introduce that idea. As I said, many believe correctly, but there are some that do not.
Pax Christi.
+Maelruain, Cele De
Wak-Wak wrote:
+PiKhristos af tonf! Khristos anesti! Al Maseeh qam! Christ is risen!+Your grace, (after kissing your right hand and offering a metanoia) To be fully honest, I didn't know anything about this conflict until I stumbled onto this newsgroup just over a year and a few months ago. Since that time, I have read tons and tons on the nature of Christ, the history of the council of Chalcedon as well as our own Secound Council of Ephesus. I learned the Orthodox stance from none other than H.H. Pope Shenouda III, whom you claim is ambiguous. As Fr. James pointed out in a post lower on this thread, the book is not ambiguous, neither are the statements. I don't know what erroneous statments weren't repudiated though, I don't mean taht as a challenge, but simply I don't understand what you're referring to.
++
Abbot-Bishop Maelruain, Cele De wrote:
>The "mainstream" proclaims agreements with other groups but, rather than joining all involved to
>the Church, those agreements introduce false ideas that separate all of the participants from the
>Church. This sad love of darkness has to end.
>
You mean like having non ordained or self ordained people who kinda
sorta like certain but not all aspects of Orthodoxy for real perform
ordination of women, each other, etc.?
How dare you characterize the Holy Orhtoodx Church as having "a sad
love of darkness"??!!
>
>As I said yesterday, I have wasted enough time on this matter.
>
It is never a waste of time to consider the truth. I believe that God
brings you occasionally to this forum for a reaspon and that that reason
is that you will one day become Orthodox.
>
>