This is the REAL Fr. Ephraim
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
problems posting I am posting it for them.
---- Name etc., removed as it was a post to me ------
There was one interesting sentence that just struck me:
"there is are series of tapes by Constantine Zalalas called "Elder Joseph the
Hesychast - The Grandfather of Greek-American Monasticism".
Why is it Greek-American Monasticism, perhaps Orthodox or Christian or ....
Jack the brother of Alban
-------------------------------------------------
Brother in Christ,
I am some having some trouble posting on the newsgroup. For now (until
I get it to work), I am sending this to a few people that might be
interested...
I don't like to gosssip, and forgive me for saying this, but the
people criticizing Elder Ephraim, the Archbishop, etc. have been
known to make up stories and lies. If you have been reading this
newsgroup you will see how they have had to apologize many times
in the past year and a half about false stories and rumors they
have reported (for example saying that the monks in Arizona were
supporting burning books) -
Dr. George Stevens apologized for that. There are many other examples.
As the Saints teach us, "believe nothing you hear, and only 1/2 of what
you see".
If you are unsure whom to believe - decide for yourself by visiting
the monasteries and getting to know the monastics. You will be very
surprised!
God bless!
(snip)
-----------------
Who is Elder Ephraim?
Elder Ephraim is the spiritual son of the great and saintly Athonite
ascetic Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Cave-dweller, who reposed in 1959
and is in the process of being glorified by the Patriarch of
Constantinople. Elder Joseph's story is incredible in itself. The book
"Monastic Wisdom" which contains his writings on the spiritual life,
the Jesus Prayer, etc. has just been translated from the Greek by
the monks at St. Anthony's Monastery in Arizona. They are now working
on the life of Elder Joseph the Hesychast. I have venerated his
fragrant relics, have seen icons of him in Greece, and have read
hymns written to him (translated into English by Fr. Seraphim
of St. Paul's on Athos who I believe is now the Dikaios at St. Gregory
Palamas in OH). Of course, being the spiritual son of a Saint doesn't
necessarily mean anything, so here is a little about Elder Ephraim:
Elder Ephraim's mother (who became Great-Schema nun Theophano) raised
her family to fear and love the Lord and His Holy Church. Elder Ephraim
answered the calling to become a monk, so he sought the great ascetic
at the time, Elder Joseph, and his co-struggler Elder Arsenios.
Elder Joseph knew Elder Ephraim by name (Johnny at the time) when he
first met him on the Holy Mountain. "Johnny" never met the Elder before,
nor did anyone know he was going to visit him. The Elder Joseph
prophesied great things would happen because of "little Johnny",
now Elder Ephraim. Elder Ephraim lived from that day on with Elder
Joseph and his synodia until the day of Elder Joseph's death
(August 15, 1959). So for 12 years, Elder Ephraim lived the hesychastic
life under complete obedience to Elder Joseph. He lived several more
years
as an ascetic and then he became the abbot of Philotheou monastery and
brought the cenobitic life back to it.
If you visit some of the monasteries or talk to some people, you will
hear of incredible stories of how they lived. For example, the monks
were not allowed to talk during Lent and were severely disciplined
f they did. Elder Joseph never used Elder Ephraim's name when he
talked to him (to keep him humble since it was clear that his
spiritual progress was amazing). He would call him "Hey you!",
"Hey monk!" but behind his back he had great things
to say about him. The lived a truly hesychastic life, having
daily vigils of the Jesus Prayer that lasted 8 hours in solitude.
As Elder Joseph has told many people before his death, Elder Ephraim
was considered the most obedient of Elder Joseph's monks and because
of this has received tremendous grace and spiritual gifts. This becomes
apparent once you meet him and spend some time with him, rather than
listening to what others have to say. Several of Elder Joseph's monks
became great abbots of Athonite monasteries, and greatly contributed to
its spiritual renewal.
Elder Ephraim has been known for decades in Greece. His name is not new
there. He is a very well respected and revered Athonite spiritual
father. He was for many years the abbot of Philotheou Monastery on
Mount Athos, as well as the spiritual father of several of the other
monasteries there. He has established monasteries outside of Athos under
his spiritual direction, both male and female, and renewed and renovated
some very old and abandoned monasteries. He was informed while in prayer
one night to establish Athonite monasteries in the U.S. and just like
St. Kosmas of Aitolos (who is from the same monastery as Elder Ephraim,
Philotheou) he humbly undertook the mission to leave the monastery for
the good of the Church and to help us.
Elder Ephraim of Katunakia, also a spiritual son of Elder Joseph, said
about his spiritual brother Ephraim "he is much, much greater than I!"
before he reposed over a year ago. He was considered a very holy
ascetic on Athos who is believed to have attained theosis, so let's
just say his opinion means something. Elder Porfirios of blessed
memory prophesied over a decade ago, that Elder Ephraim would establish
monasteries in the U.S., before it was even a thought. The list can go
on for a while as to who believes in the holiness of Elder Ephraim and
his mission here in the U.S. Of course, this will rub many people the
wrong way, especially non-traditional clergy and laypeople. The
monasteries are mirrors to our souls and perhaps we do not like
what we see. Perhaps there is also spiritual envy from other monastics
who were not able to do what the Elder has done.
Elder Ephraim has overcome great obstacles in establishing monasteries
here in the U.S. The EP, Archbishop Iakovos, and most of the bishops at
the time were adamantly opposed to him even visiting the U.S. to hear
confessions, let alone to establish monasteries. In 1991 he left the
jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which he called
"the proponents of ecumenism and the enemies of monasticism", to
retreat into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. ROCA received him
with love and open arms. Following this action, the Patriarchate,
the Greek Government (for political reasons), the Holy Mountain
(who did not want a schism on the Holy Mountain) and the Archdiocese
all violently attacked Elder Ephraim saying that he would be deposed,
he was a traitor, etc. They also threatened to revoke his green card
so that he could no longer come to the U.S. to see his spiritual
children. To prevent division in the Church, (since he had
many followers who were willing to leave the EP for ROCA), he humbly
returned to the Patriarchate who then allowed him to start the
monasteries. As a side note, he still has an excellent relationship
with ROCA and its hierarchy, whom he considers to be a canonical synod.
There are several monks in the monasteries that were allowed by ROCA
to transfer to Elder Ephraim's monasteries, and many clergy and
laypeople attend the services there. There are also some monks from
other Orthodox jurisdictions who were given the blessing of their
bishop and abbot to join one of Elder Ephraim's brotherhoods.
There are now 16 monasteries (counting ones that will officially be
opened soon), in the US and Canada: California, 2 in Pennsylvania, 2 in
Florida, 2 in North Carolina, 2 in the Chicago area, Texas, Arizona,
Washington, Michigan,2 in Canada, and soon one in NY. All of the
abbots are either American or Canadian, including one convert.
The abesses are from his monasteries in Greece, but are trying very
hard to learn English (which all now know) Most of the nuns and monks
are Americans, and many are converts. The services all follow the
Athonite Typicon, so they are in Greek.
In such few years, against the persecution of much of the hierarchy
and people, a simple, poor monk, whose only education is that of the
Desert, has done for us here in America what we have been thirsting for.
I can understand why some of this is difficult for us here in America.
We are not used to this. But we should remember that we are a young
church here in America and we have a lot to learn from our experiemced
older brothers and sisters.
Anything you may hear coming from the Elder or his monasteries is
traditional Orthodoxy. Nothing is new or made up. The Fathers of Church
have taught it, contemporary holy Elders around the world have
taught it - it is Orthodoxy. Whether the U.S. is ready for it is
another story, but we certainly need it.
After Elder Ephraim's repose (may it be 50 years from now), little by
little we will all learn more details of his struggles, his blessed
life, his miracles, etc. Until then, if you do not know him, meet him.
Why would you base your judgement on what others have to say?
My father, a typical stubborn Greek man, who vowed never to fast nor
confess to a priest, melted like wax upon meeting the Elder and
confessed to him his sins and now follows the fasts to the best of
his ability and is in a totally different mindset. While visiting the
Holy Mountain this past summer, when any monk heard that he was from
the U.S. they would ask him "How is Geronda Ephraim? You better take
good care of him there! You don't know what you have!" And this was not
from monasteries under the Elder's spiritual direction. Don't expect
a "Joint Statement of the 20 Ruling Monasteries of Mount Athos on Elder
Ephraim of Philotheou". This is not how Athos operates. The Elder's work
speaks for itself. So the does the fact that no other Athonite has
been able to do what he has done.
Do any of you notice how the Elder never defends himself? He never says
anything about those that are persecuting him. I have asked him about
this and his humble reply is "Don't worry, pray for them. It isn't
their fault, they do not know." Go and meet the man. Spend some time at
any of the monasteries. Talk to the abbot or abbess. The monasteries
are for all of us. Just like you cannot explain to anyone the beauty of
Orthodoxy and the worship unless you experience it, the same applies
here. Come and see.
I don't normally read this newsgroup, but after hearing of what was
going on, I decided to say something. If anyone replies to this,
I will not see it unless you email me personally.
If anyone is interested, there is are series of tapes by Constantine
Zalalas called "Elder Joseph the Hesychast - The Grandfather of
Greek-American Monasticism". It describes the life and teachings of
Elder Joseph based on what some of his monastic spiritual children
have said and written. Included are some stories about Elder Ephraim.
You can pick them up at some of the monasteries or I would be willing
to copy them (I have permission) and send them to anyone (for free).
Email me if you are sincerely interested.
Forgive me for any errors that I may have reported. This is all based on
my personal recollection and knowledge. I am by no means an authority on
this.
God bless!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Troyen
Please send me information on the monasteries that are in North Carolina, I
pray this was not a mistake on your part and there is such a thing, Iam
stationed here and I will visit soon.
sinner, troyen
Z and ALTR
monasteries and see/hear for themselves.
Yiasas
Zoe
ats...@my-dejanews.com
Ephraim who still remains a mystery and a source of controversy.
What I continue to fail to understand is his leaving the EP while branding
the EP a proponent of ecumenism and monasticism and going to the ROCA, then
returning the EP jurisdiction after being threatened. I still am confused
about this. Does he have a problem with authority within the Church? Is he
a loose cannon or someone who has a problem being obedient?
Hopefully, more answers will be coming shortly.
Louis Geo. Atsaves
In article <74seja$liu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
ferg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I received the following email and as the sender said it was not posted due to
> problems posting I am posting it for them.
>
> Elder Ephraim has overcome great obstacles in establishing monasteries
> here in the U.S. The EP, Archbishop Iakovos, and most of the bishops at
> the time were adamantly opposed to him even visiting the U.S. to hear
> confessions, let alone to establish monasteries. In 1991 he left the
> jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which he called
> "the proponents of ecumenism and the enemies of monasticism", to
> retreat into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. ROCA received him
> with love and open arms. Following this action, the Patriarchate,
> the Greek Government (for political reasons), the Holy Mountain
> (who did not want a schism on the Holy Mountain) and the Archdiocese
> all violently attacked Elder Ephraim saying that he would be deposed,
> he was a traitor, etc. They also threatened to revoke his green card
> so that he could no longer come to the U.S. to see his spiritual
> children. To prevent division in the Church, (since he had
> many followers who were willing to leave the EP for ROCA), he humbly
> returned to the Patriarchate who then allowed him to start the
> monasteries. As a side note, he still has an excellent relationship
> with ROCA and its hierarchy, whom he considers to be a canonical synod.
> There are several monks in the monasteries that were allowed by ROCA
> to transfer to Elder Ephraim's monasteries, and many clergy and
> laypeople attend the services there. There are also some monks from
> other Orthodox jurisdictions who were given the blessing of their
> bishop and abbot to join one of Elder Ephraim's brotherhoods.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
LADAIntnet
Meeting someone like Fr. Ephraim has been THE dream of my life.
Since I live in NY could you please let me know where his nearest monastery is
located and whether or not it would be possible to arrange a visit while he's
there.
Thank you again,
Sinner Ioann Z.
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
him with caution. One thing that does bother me is that there is so much
attention focused on him without his trying to change the focus. Did he
evergive a reason for his return to the EP? How old was he when his mother
became a monastic? How old was he when he bacsme a monastic? If he is indeed
on the up and up he may serve as a bridge for the ROCOR hopefully not a
Trojan Horse.
Jack
------------------
ats...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Thank you Jack for posting this. It sheds some badly needed light on Fr.
>Ephraim who still remains a mystery and a source of controversy.
>What I continue to fail to understand is his leaving the EP while branding
>the EP a proponent of ecumenism and monasticism and going to the ROCA, then
>returning the EP jurisdiction after being threatened. I still am confused
>about this. Does he have a problem with authority within the Church? Is he
>a loose cannon or someone who has a problem being obedient?
>Hopefully, more answers will be coming shortly.
>Louis Geo. Atsaves
>In article <74seja$liu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>>ferg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>I received the following email and as the sender said it was not posted due to
>>problems posting I am posting it for them.
>>Elder Ephraim has overcome great obstacles in establishing monasteries
>>here in the U.S. The EP, Archbishop Iakovos, and most of the bishops at
>>the time were adamantly opposed to him even visiting the U.S. to hear
>>confessions, let alone to establish monasteries. In 1991 he left the
>>jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which he called
>>"the proponents of ecumenism and the enemies of monasticism", to
>>retreat into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. ROCA received him
>>with love and open arms. Following this action, the Patriarchate,
>>the Greek Government (for political reasons), the Holy Mountain
>>(who did not want a schism on the Holy Mountain) and the Archdiocese
>>all violently attacked Elder Ephraim saying that he would be deposed,
>>he was a traitor, etc. They also threatened to revoke his green card
>>so that he could no longer come to the U.S. to see his spiritual
>>children. To prevent division in the Church, (since he had
>>many followers who were willing to leave the EP for ROCA), he humbly
>>returned to the Patriarchate who then allowed him to start the
>>monasteries. As a side note, he still has an excellent relationship
>>with ROCA and its hierarchy, whom he considers to be a canonical synod.
>>There are several monks in the monasteries that were allowed by ROCA
>>to transfer to Elder Ephraim's monasteries, and many clergy and
>>laypeople attend the services there. There are also some monks from
>>other Orthodox jurisdictions who were given the blessing of their
>>bishop and abbot to join one of Elder Ephraim's brotherhoods.
***************************************
Give the disease and offer the remedy
Pyong chu ko yak chun ta
***************************************
Mike Craney
(Elder Ephraim lives at St. Anthony's, I believe)
Monastery of St. Anthony (Men)
4784 N. St. Joseph's Way
Florence, AZ 85232
Father Paisios, Abbot
(520)868-3188
Nearest Major Airport: Phoenix
Monastery of the Holy Archangels (Men)
P.O. Box 422
Kendalia, TX 78027
Father Dositheos, Abbot
(830)833-2793
Nearest Major Airport: San Antonio
Holy Protection Monastery (Women)
RR 2 Box 64
Weatherly, PA 18255
(717)427-8296
Mother Olympiada, Abbess
(717)427-8296
Nearest Major Airport: Baltimore
Monastery of the Holy Trinity (Men)
Smithcreek, MI
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Father Joseph, Abbot
For info, call Fr. Paisios
(I have no clue where this is)
Monastery of the Nativity of the Theotokos (Women)
PO Box 536
121 St. Elias Lane
Saxonburg, PA 16056
Mother Taxiarchia, Abbess
(412)352-3999
Nearest Major Airport: Pittsburg
St. John Prodromos Monastery (Women)
5 Timmer Lane
Goldendale, WA 98620
(509)773-3667
Mother Euphraxia, Abbess
Nearest Major Airport: Portland
Monastery of the Theotokos the Life-Giving Spring (Women)
38526 Dunlap Road
PO Box 549
Dunlap, CA 93621-0549
(209)338-3110
Mother Markella, Abbess
Nearest Major Airport: Fresno
(well, it's an airport - probably better to use
Sacramento or San Jose).
Monastery of Panagia Vlahernon (Men)
9621 Alturas Babson
Parkcutoff Road
Bartow, FL 33830
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Father Chrysostomos, Abbot
(941)512-2089
Nearest Major Airport: Tampa
Monastery of the Annunciation of the Theotokos (Women)
13486 Northwest Highway 225
Reddick, FL 32686-3519
Mother Ephemia, Abbess
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
(352)591-1665
Nearest Major Airport: Orlando
There is also a men's monastery in Kenosha Wisconsin,
close to Chicago, I believe.
I also believe that land has been purchased in the Catskills, north of
Albany,
for another men's monastery.
Michael
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
Nanhwmd
In article <36727...@news.newsfeeds.com>, "Mike Craney"
<mich...@surfree.com> writes:
>Monastery of the Theotokos the Life-Giving Spring (Women)
>38526 Dunlap Road
>PO Box 549
>Dunlap, CA 93621-0549
>(209)338-3110
>Mother Markella, Abbess
>Nearest Major Airport: Fresno
>(well, it's an airport - probably better to use
>Sacramento or San Jose).
This convent is located on the property of Saint Nicholas Ranch which is
the major retreat center for the Western Diocese of the GOA. Metropolitan
Anthony is building a new monastery on the hill for them and the Philoptichos
is paying for the library. Mother Markella is loved by all who have visited
her. St. Anthony's monastery was the site for the Western diocese clergy
retreat, which included many of the signers of the protest letter. So I don't
understand where the idea is coming from that the pre-Spyridon GOA is
antimonastic or anti-Elder Ephraim. The only negative thing I ever heard about
him was people wondering how a "holy man" could be associated with Weldon and
the Ben Lomond problem. Saying that +Iakovos was against monks sounds like
gossip to me. Perhaps some of Elder Ephraim's supporters are harming him by
associating his name with unjust criticism of various GOA clerics and lay
leaders.
Nancy
Nanhwmd
>---- Name etc., removed as it was a post to me ------
Why did you remove the name, since the gentleman said he was trying to post it
here?
When he mentions "ROCA," does he mean ROCOR or the Moscow Patriarch's churches
in America?
Nancy
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
himself, which he did. Just curious why you ask?
Jack
-----------------------
(Nanhwmd) wrote:
ferg...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>>---- Name etc., removed as it was a post to me ------
>Why did you remove the name, since the gentleman said he was trying to post it
>here?
>When he mentions "ROCA," does he mean ROCOR or the Moscow Patriarch's churches
>in America?
>Nancy
***************************************
Give the disease and offer the remedy
Pyong chu ko yak chun ta
***************************************
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Walkermonk
Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church, only Orthodox Christians may be inside the
Nave during a service. For this reason, non-Orthodox visitors are asked to
participate from the Narthex. "
From Elder Ephrem's monastery in Arizona
anthony.html
----------------------------------------------
Any comments on how common this is in the variaty of jurisdictions? I am
unfamiliar with this particular canon, but then, I am unfamiliar with lots of
canons -- that not being either my office or my interest.
Grace
Fr. John Morris
Walkermonk wrote:
This sounds rather extreme to me. I find that one of the best evangelistic tools
that we have are our services. People come and are inspired. They come back and
eventually become Orthodox.
In the ancient Church those under penance and catechumens were required to leave
before the Great Entrance of the Divine Liturgy. The text still has this
dismissal, although I have never heard of any Orthodox who actually make people
leave.
Naturally, whenever we have non Orthodox, I make an announcement before Communion
that only Orthodox may receive the Sacrament.
Archpriest John W. Morris
Caedmontwo
>tools
>that we have are our services. People come and are inspired. They come back
>and
>eventually become Orthodox.
>In the ancient Church those under penance and catechumens were required to
>leave
>before the Great Entrance of the Divine Liturgy. The text still has this
>dismissal, although I have never heard of any Orthodox who actually make
>people
>leave.
>Naturally, whenever we have non Orthodox, I make an announcement before
>Communion
>that only Orthodox may receive the Sacrament.
>
I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I have read (specifically from
Marina Robb in Athens) that many of the Greek *monasteries* (not parishes and I
think it is an important distinction) maintain this tradition. If that's
correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, then St. Anthony's is simply
following the model of Greek monasticism.
The point being of course that monasteries are not directly about evangelism.
They are places where monks have *retired* from the world for the salvation of
their souls. The situation is different for a parish where the bishop, priest
and congregation are called to live in the world and thereby transform it.
Caedmon
"Attain the Spirit of peace and thousands around you will be saved"
--St. Seraphim of Sarov
(remove "ments" to reply)
Mike Craney
Traditionally, catechumens
must leave just before the Great Entrance, I believe. Also, at the monastery
chapel in Texas,
this would require that the catechumen take as little as four steps backward
reach the narthex.
This would not significantly disrupt their church experience.
Also, as for this "we want a statement from Mt. Athos" stuff generated by
the GOAL militants,
a statement is not the answer. The answer to your questions about Elder
Ephraim and
his work is located in Arizona, not Greece. I suggest you get on the phone
with the Elder,
tell him that the GOAL people would like to understand what he is doing,
make an appointment,
AND GET YOURSELVES TO ARIZONA. He knows all about you. Do you think for a
minute that
he wouldn't take the call?
The world deals through proclamations, statements, and spokespersons.
Christians deal with each
other face to face.
HarryCoin
minute that
he wouldn't take the call?>
The point is that Ephraim has made himself the center of controversy by
appearing to condone cultish behaviour which glorifies his person. He is able
to do that due to the projection by others that he carries with him the
approval and moral authority of Mt. Athos which is thought of as a great
bastion of spirituality in the world.
However, although the monestaries of Athos have made public comment and held
public events for a long time, people on this group offer with no support
"Athos doesn't work that way". But Athos has "worked that way" as various
statements with signatories from monestaries in the past have shown as well as
various exhibits and so on and so forth.
Therefore a statement from the one in the center of the controversy wouldn't
help. What is needed is for Athos to say that Fr. (Not Bishop, note) Ephraim
is here under their authority having been released with good reputation and
with their blessings to project their moral authority here in the USA.
Troyen
>The point is that Ephraim has made himself the center of controversy by
appearing to condone cultish behaviour which glorifies his person.
That is pure and unadulterated bullshit airborne and you know it.
This quasi logic is like saying that AB Spyridon created GOAL to reflect a
vibrant Greek community!
The man does not defend himself against pukes like you because he is founding
Monasteries and working with local Bishops so that the Faithful can go and get
tastes of Heaven.
Meanwhile you are sitting on your keister spewing about statements from Mt
Athos! If you had two cents of sense you would know that if the Elder was a
quack he would have been exposed by the Elders of Mt Athos. What kind of
garbage is in your head? How does a fake get to be the Abbot of a famous
Monastery on Mt Athos!? Answer that one! Are the monks there such morons that
they make a cult leader an ABbot and then send him to America!
Please tell me more!
Unlike you, I will be visiting more of these Monasteries and hopefully I will
meet the Elder sometime. I have already met Abbot Paisios in AZ and he was/is
quite impressive.
Again, all of you pleasant people please excuse my bit of rant, but this is
just to moronic for me to swallow.
Btw, jumped on Friday, landed hard on my left heel, nothing bad though.
sinner, troyen
HarryCoin
It is not, and I know it.
HarryCoin
quack he would have been exposed by the Elders of Mt Athos. >
No, I don't know that. How do you know it? Can you offer examples?
Fr. Anthony
says...
>Therefore a statement from the one in the center of the controversy wouldn't
>help. What is needed is for Athos to say that Fr. (Not Bishop, note) Ephraim
>is here under their authority having been released with good reputation and
>with their blessings to project their moral authority here in the USA.
For a while now I've told myself that Harry really just doesn't "get it," that
he really believes the above is a realistic scenario...but now I realize that
it must be another example of the determination to repeat something often
enough and loud enough so that people will buy into it (unfortunately, that's
all too true, since so many people really don't want to *think* their way
through things.
"Athos" does not, and does not have the authority to, release someone "...with
their blessings to project their moral authority here in the USA..." Now
perhaps if the above writer could *demonstrate* that such authority exists, he
and others could continue to call for such a declaration. Since that can't be
demonstrated - because it does not exist - maybe all of us could be
spared these repetitious and useless calls for that which does not exist.
Christo J. Balouris
it is clearly the rule on Mt. Athos.
Chris
Walkermonk wrote in message <19981213231302...@ng56.aol.com>...
Troyen
Never been to the cult like Monasteries have you? No? Really? You don't say?
Ever done anything besides gossip and spread hearsay about a man who had the
spiritual prominence to become and ABBOT on Athos? I bet you think anybody can
be an Abbot nowadays right?
Have any desire to "go and see" what is going on at the Monasteries? you know,
monks in robes doing that Typicon thing and praying and eating and working and
confessing..... aweful things like that.
Last I heard, Elder Ephraim was seen in Washington making sure that Clinton
would be impeached. He then will be working witht the Libertarians to
overthrow the IRS, he also is in collusion with the OPEC Bombboys, and will be
bombing all Tresuries at once on the first half moon after the wineter
solstice. It is at this time that Nicobb will be secretly detained for fear
that Nicobb could ruin the Elder's chance to topple the US Government.
Currently Delta Force is awaiting orders at Fort Bragg to assinate the Elder,
but there is not enough HARD EVIDENCE to substantiate any of the above plans.
sinner, troyen
nick cobb
Walkermonk wrote:
> "All are welcome to participate in our church services, but according to the
> Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church, only Orthodox Christians may be inside the
> Nave during a service. For this reason, non-Orthodox visitors are asked to
> participate from the Narthex. "
>
> From Elder Ephrem's monastery in Arizona
>
> anthony.html
> ----------------------------------------------
> Any comments on how common this is in the variaty of jurisdictions? I am
> unfamiliar with this particular canon, but then, I am unfamiliar with lots of
> canons -- that not being either my office or my interest.
>
> Grace
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's another good one. A pious Orthodox Christian went to Ephraim for
confession. He had his own parish and his parish priest was his Father confessor,
but he sought out Ephraim for deeper, more spiritual direction. He was told after
his confession, that as a penance, he couldn't have sex with his wife for 5 years!
Astonished and devistated, he went back to his own priest who told him that he had
to obey Ephriam.
Anyone else wish to seek out this fellow for spiritual direction?
Christo J. Balouris
someone you heard about through your famous grapevine?
nick cobb wrote in message <3675BFF1...@cris.com>...
Mike Craney
HarryCoin wrote in message <19981214090015...@ng-bw1.aol.com>...
><Do you think for a
>minute that
>he wouldn't take the call?>
>
>appearing to condone cultish behaviour which glorifies his person.
How? Just because you say he has done something doesn't make it true.
>Therefore a statement from the one in the center of the controversy
wouldn't
>help
Why not? Doesn't the Bible tell us to go directly to those we have angst
against? Doesn't the Spirit give us the
ability to test the sprits? This "give us a statement" stuff is the way the
world works, not the way Christians work.
Why is it only the GOAL militants who seem to be upset by the Elder? Is this
whole thing simply more of the
anti-clergy, pro-laity rhetoric?
Mike Craney
>Last I heard, Elder Ephraim was seen in Washington making sure that Clinton
>would be impeached. He then will be working witht the Libertarians to
>overthrow the IRS, he also is in collusion with the OPEC Bombboys, and will
be
>bombing all Tresuries at once on the first half moon after the wineter
>solstice. It is at this time that Nicobb will be secretly detained for
fear
>that Nicobb could ruin the Elder's chance to topple the US Government.
>Currently Delta Force is awaiting orders at Fort Bragg to assinate the
Elder,
>but there is not enough HARD EVIDENCE to substantiate any of the above
plans.
Rumor has it that the Elder was also responsible for the Giants upsetting
the Broncos.
:-)
Mike
Mike Craney
nick cobb wrote in message <3675BFF1...@cris.com>...
>
>|Here's another good one. A pious Orthodox Christian went to Ephraim for
>|confession. He had his own parish and his parish priest was his Father
>confessor,
>|but he sought out Ephraim for deeper, more spiritual direction. He was
told
>after
>|his confession, that as a penance, he couldn't have sex with his wife for
5
>years!
>|Astonished and devistated, he went back to his own priest who told him
that
>he had
>|to obey Ephriam.
>|
Before Nick gets totally trashed on this one, let me make a quick point.
BEFORE YOU PLACE A CANONICAL MONASTIC IN THE POSITION OF SPIRITUAL
FATHER, MAKE SURE YOU ARE WILLING TO LIVE BY THEIR RULES.
Now, I don't know whether Nick is making up stories or not, but it would not
surprise me at all
if canon law stated that this was the proper penance for adultery or other
such moral
miscarriages. I do know for a fact that canonically, should an Orthodox
divorce, they are
restricted from the Mysteries for 7.5 years, I believe.
Seems strict? Yep. Remember, the monastics are not there to please parish
councils,
keep people in the pews, keep donations flowing, and all the other noxious
things a
parish priest sometimes has to do in order to have a living, breathing
congregation.
Now, I must also point out that my beloved had confession with Elder Ephraim
about six
weeks ago and was basically aglow for a month after speaking to him. If you
live by the
spirit, no problem.
So, Nick, if this be the truth, it really wouldn't surprise me, depending on
the magnitude
of the sin. The Elder is a traditionalist. Period. Personally, I like it
when confessors are hard on
me. After all, they're just looking out for my soul.
Phil Thompson
>Last I heard, Elder Ephraim was seen in Washington making sure that Clinton
>would be impeached. He then will be working witht the Libertarians to
Yeah! Go Elder Ephraim! Where do I sign up?
Oh darn he was joking.
Phil
ats...@my-dejanews.com
abo...@orthodoxnospam.org (Fr. Anthony) wrote:
> "Athos" does not, and does not have the authority to, release someone "...with
> their blessings to project their moral authority here in the USA..." Now
> perhaps if the above writer could *demonstrate* that such authority exists, he
> and others could continue to call for such a declaration. Since that can't be
> demonstrated - because it does not exist - maybe all of us could be
> spared these repetitious and useless calls for that which does not exist.
>
If Athos does not have the authority to release him with their blessings to
project their moral authority here in the USA then why do Fr. Ephraim's
supporters keep stating that this is the case? If Athos does not have the
authority to release him here to the U.S.A. then who does? Who amongst the
heirarchs and jurisdictions of Orthodoxy here in the U.S.A. does he answer
to? Is he as some of his critics proclaim him to be, a loose cannon type?
I'm still trying to keep an open mind here, but some answers are necessary.
If Mt. Athos does not endorse him, or cannot do so, someone from Mt. Athos
should say so. If he voluntarily left Mt. Athos, or was kicked out, or was
invited by someone to come here, or instructed by the EP to come here, or the
ROCA to come here, or . . . (add any other scenerio you wish here) someone
obviously knows enough about him to say so. Silence is only adding to the
controversy.
Louis Geo. Atsaves
ats...@my-dejanews.com
tro...@aol.com (Troyen) wrote:
How does a fake get to be the Abbot of a famous
> Monastery on Mt Athos!? Answer that one! Are the monks there such morons that
> they make a cult leader an ABbot and then send him to America!
> sinner, troyen
>
I thought the biography posted recently stated that he decided to come here
to create monasteries, he was not "sent" here by the monks of Athos to create
them for them or to be somehow endorsed by them. I'm still trying to look at
this objectively but the facts are too slow in coming as they concern the
mysterious elder Ephraim. He may be the real deal, or he may not be. And I
was always under the impression that monks are not infallible but they can
also make mistakes.
Let's get some more information please to see which rant is the truth and
which rant is . . . well . . . just ranting.
Fr. John Morris
ats...@my-dejanews.com wrote:>
>
> If Athos does not have the authority to release him with their blessings to
> project their moral authority here in the USA then why do Fr. Ephraim's
> supporters keep stating that this is the case? If Athos does not have the
> authority to release him here to the U.S.A. then who does? Who amongst the
> heirarchs and jurisdictions of Orthodoxy here in the U.S.A. does he answer
> to? Is he as some of his critics proclaim him to be, a loose cannon type?
> I'm still trying to keep an open mind here, but some answers are necessary.
>
I thought that Fr. Ephraim was under the jurisdiciton of the Ecumenical Patriarch
and his exarch in the U.S., Archbishop Sypriodon. Presumably, each monastery is
under the authority of the local bishop.
Archpriest John W. Morris
ats...@my-dejanews.com
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>
> Walkermonk wrote:
>
> > "All are welcome to participate in our church services, but according to the
> > Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church, only Orthodox Christians may be inside the
> > Nave during a service. For this reason, non-Orthodox visitors are asked to
> > participate from the Narthex. "
> >
> > From Elder Ephrem's monastery in Arizona
> >
> > anthony.html
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Any comments on how common this is in the variaty of jurisdictions? I am
> > unfamiliar with this particular canon, but then, I am unfamiliar with lots of
> > canons -- that not being either my office or my interest.
> >
> > Grace
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> confession. He had his own parish and his parish priest was his Father confessor,
> but he sought out Ephraim for deeper, more spiritual direction. He was told after
> his confession, that as a penance, he couldn't have sex with his wife for 5 years!
> Astonished and devistated, he went back to his own priest who told him that he had
> to obey Ephriam.
>
>
Huh? Seek who out for spiritual direction? The Priest? The Elder Ephraim?
Louis Geo. Atsaves
Obviously confused here
ats...@my-dejanews.com
tro...@aol.com (Troyen) wrote:
> Harry, nicobb, and docgeorge,
>
> Never been to the cult like Monasteries have you? No? Really? You don't say?
>
> Ever done anything besides gossip and spread hearsay about a man who had the
> spiritual prominence to become and ABBOT on Athos? I bet you think anybody can
> be an Abbot nowadays right?
>
> Have any desire to "go and see" what is going on at the Monasteries? you know,
> monks in robes doing that Typicon thing and praying and eating and working and
> confessing..... aweful things like that.
>
> would be impeached. He then will be working witht the Libertarians to
> bombing all Tresuries at once on the first half moon after the wineter
> solstice. It is at this time that Nicobb will be secretly detained for fear
> that Nicobb could ruin the Elder's chance to topple the US Government.
> Currently Delta Force is awaiting orders at Fort Bragg to assinate the Elder,
> but there is not enough HARD EVIDENCE to substantiate any of the above plans.
>
>
Your comments remind me of an earlier posting in this thread. It would be
fun to see Fr. Ephraim spiritually advise President Clinton following his
confession not to have sex for five years! That would definitely validate
the Elder in my eyes!
Louis Geo. Atsaves
Caedmontwo
That's correct, Fr. John, as I posted before. The EP was the one who had
authority to release Fr. Ephraim from Mt. Athos, and did so. It was the EP, his
exarch Abp. Spyridon, and individual bishop in each diocese who had authority
to allow him to found monasteries and have done so (in the case where a bishop
did not give him such permission, he did not found a monastery). And the
monasteries he has founded are under the authority of the local bishops.
If I recall correctly, this round of posts started with a report that a
proposal is on the table to make those monasteries stavrophegial, in which case
they would no longer answer to the local bishops, but rather to the exarch.
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
I am not a die hard supporter or non supporter of Fr. E.
There are some excellent points presented by you, Harry, Doc and a few others.
I wonder why Fr. E just doesn't deny some of these rumors or presnt a letter
from Athos. But we all have to keep in mind that not every monastic on Athos
is "holy".
Jack
-----------------------
"Christo J. Balouris" wrote:
> Is this "pious Orthodox Christian" somebody you actually know, or perhaps
> someone you heard about through your famous grapevine?
>
> nick cobb wrote in message <3675BFF1...@cris.com>...
>
> |Here's another good one. A pious Orthodox Christian went to Ephraim for
> |confession. He had his own parish and his parish priest was his Father
> confessor,
> |but he sought out Ephraim for deeper, more spiritual direction. He was told
> after
> |his confession, that as a penance, he couldn't have sex with his wife for 5
> years!
> |Astonished and devistated, he went back to his own priest who told him that
> he had
> |to obey Ephriam.
> |
> |Anyone else wish to seek out this fellow for spiritual direction?
> |
> |
>
>
--
***************************************
Give the disease and offer the remedy
Pyong chu ko yak chun ta
***************************************
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
confession with a "bood of punishments" however the Orthodox had a less
jusicial approach with various people writing things as guides however it was
up to the spiritual father to work these things for the benefit of the
individuals soul. Can you point us to the canons for confession and clarify
if you think my statement is incorrect
Jack
------------------
"Mike Craney" wrote:
>
> nick cobb wrote in message <3675BFF1...@cris.com>...
> >
> >|Here's another good one. A pious Orthodox Christian went to Ephraim for
> >|confession. He had his own parish and his parish priest was his Father
> >confessor,
> >|but he sought out Ephraim for deeper, more spiritual direction. He was
> told
> >after
> >|his confession, that as a penance, he couldn't have sex with his wife for
> 5
> >years!
> >|Astonished and devistated, he went back to his own priest who told him
> that
> >he had
> >|to obey Ephriam.
> >|
>
HarryCoin
"GOAL militants" don't really care about +Epraim one way or the other. It is
so many clergy and heirarchs from coast to coast who have written publicly
about him (over 130) because they know whereof they speak.
And note, it is not monasticism that is disfavored or even this or that
monestary. It is these accounts of toleration of cultish behavior.
HarryCoin
proposal is on the table to make those monasteries stavrophegial, in which case
they would no longer answer to the local bishops, but rather to the exarch.>
There was recently announced a "charter" for the monestaries. Some used to be
under the Metropolitans, and this "charter" was produced without involvement of
the pastors or the laity, and hasn't been published to my knowledge. Seems
odd, since the Archdiocese has violated our earlier charter with 500 parishes
they gin one up for monestaries.
Fr. John Morris
>
> BEFORE YOU PLACE A CANONICAL MONASTIC IN THE POSITION OF SPIRITUAL
> FATHER, MAKE SURE YOU ARE WILLING TO LIVE BY THEIR RULES.
>
> Now, I don't know whether Nick is making up stories or not, but it would not
> surprise me at all
> if canon law stated that this was the proper penance for adultery or other
> such moral
> miscarriages.
I have heard similar stories about excessive penances from our clergy in
parishes near Fr. Ephraim's monasteries. One problem with a monk from abroad
hearing confessions in this country. Unless one has had pastoral experience here
in America, I frankly doubt that they can give valid advice on how one lives an
Orthodox life in our society. I would much better if Fr. Ephraim and his monks
deferred to those with more experience in helping Orthodox live an Orthodox life
in our culture and confine their spiritual advice to helping people learn how to
pray and understand the spritual traditions of the Orthodox Faith. In any case,
they should be very careful to understand the difference between the kind of
life that a monk leads and the kind of life that a layman leads. They should
also do nothing to undermine the position of the clergy out in the trenches. It
is one thing to theorize how one lives Orthodoxy from the comfort of a
monastery. It is something quite different to understand the problems of
Orthodox living in a society that is hostile towards our Faith or the problems
facing a preist who has to deal with laity, some of whom have very little real
knowledge of the Orthodox Faith, or parish councils that consider him a mere
hired hand of the parish.
Archpriest John W. Morris
ats...@my-dejanews.com
"Fr. John Morris" <frj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> ats...@my-dejanews.com wrote:>
> >
> > If Athos does not have the authority to release him with their blessings to
> > project their moral authority here in the USA then why do Fr. Ephraim's
> > supporters keep stating that this is the case? If Athos does not have the
> > authority to release him here to the U.S.A. then who does? Who amongst the
> > heirarchs and jurisdictions of Orthodoxy here in the U.S.A. does he answer
> > to? Is he as some of his critics proclaim him to be, a loose cannon type?
> > I'm still trying to keep an open mind here, but some answers are necessary.
> >
> I thought that Fr. Ephraim was under the jurisdiciton of the Ecumenical Patriarch
> and his exarch in the U.S., Archbishop Sypriodon. Presumably, each monastery is
> under the authority of the local bishop.
>
>
Father, thank you for your response. "I thought?" "Presumably?" It seems
real tough to get some real answers to some basic questions about Fr.
Ephraim.
Louis Geo. Atsaves
Joseph Allison
says...
>There was recently announced a "charter" for the monestaries. Some used to
be
>under the Metropolitans, and this "charter" was produced without involvement
of
>the pastors or the laity
Harry *still* doesn't get it.
The Orthodox Church is a *hierarchical* Church. The "pastors or the laity"
have absolutely nothing to say in the regard.
By the way, before the venom starts flowing that "...this is AMERICA..." -
that makes no difference. The Church is *not* a democracy. Period. It can't be
and won't be.
Fr. Anthony
Troyen
is all I ask at this point.
And yes, Confession to a monk when one has been living a free and easy American
lifestyle is crazy.
sinner, troyen
Troyen
Mason and not ok to have rumors of "cult-like" activity going on. Hmm, that is
one to think about. 130 letters or 130 priests? Just out of the blue do any
of the letters say things like. "Nah-ahh!, UHHUH!, No Fair!" Just asking.
I know of one family from the Tenn area that has done everything in their power
to humiliate Elder Epraim, but i don't know anyone else, save for the mongers
here on the NG.
sinner, troyen
HarryCoin
have absolutely nothing to say in the regard.>
Good point. Tell it to the people of Ferrara - Florence -- from a long way
off.
HarryCoin
have absolutely nothing to say in the regard.>
Fr. Allison noted that our is a "heirarchal" church. Except for all the times
when we tell all who care to listen that no, ours is a conciliar Church, not
like the Roman Catholic Church with infallible hierachs, and so on, and so
forth.
And because of some trying to lose sight of that difference, we are all
"getting it" now.
The Orthodox speak of a "wholistic" faith, not in keeping with the implications
of Fr.'s writing.
Caedmontwo
>That
>is all I ask at this point.
St. Gregory Palamas in Ohio
St. Irene Chrysovalantou (brought in with the Old Calendar bishops recently) in
New York
Presentation of our Lord in Pennsylvania
Nativity of St. John the Baptist in Denver
(all for men)
Troyen
the Abbot arrived.
Any more to add? That is a rather small number for 70 years.
sinner, troyen
nick cobb
Mike Craney wrote:
> ...So, Nick, if this be the truth, it really wouldn't surprise me, depending
> on
> the magnitude
> of the sin. The Elder is a traditionalist. Period. Personally, I like it
> when confessors are hard on
> me. After all, they're just looking out for my soul.
>
> Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
O.K., Mike, no sex with your wife for 7.5 years. I know you'll like this!
Christo J. Balouris
|"GOAL militants" don't really care about +Epraim one way or the other. It
is
|so many clergy and heirarchs from coast to coast who have written publicly
|about him (over 130) because they know whereof they speak.
Harry,
I've been following all of this very carefully, I believe, and have seen no
such letters. Can you either post or provide links to any such public
writings?
Chris
nick cobb
ats...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> ...Your comments remind me of an earlier posting in this thread. It would be
> fun to see Fr. Ephraim spiritually advise President Clinton following his
> confession not to have sex for five years! That would definitely validate
> the Elder in my eyes!
>
> Louis Geo. Atsaves
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE, HERE!
nick cobb
Caedmontwo wrote:
> ...That's correct, Fr. John, as I posted before. The EP was the one who had
> authority to release Fr. Ephraim from Mt. Athos, and did so. It was the EP, his
> exarch Abp. Spyridon, and individual bishop in each diocese who had authority
> to allow him to found monasteries and have done so (in the case where a bishop
> did not give him such permission, he did not found a monastery). And the
> monasteries he has founded are under the authority of the local bishops.
>
> If I recall correctly, this round of posts started with a report that a
> proposal is on the table to make those monasteries stavrophegial, in which case
> they would no longer answer to the local bishops, but rather to the exarch.
>
> Caedmon
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother. The
Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually, lets Ephraim
influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked, its only a
matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA. Say
good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
nick cobb
Joseph Allison wrote:
> ...By the way, before the venom starts flowing that "...this is AMERICA..." -
> that makes no difference. The Church is *not* a democracy. Period. It can't be
> and won't be.
>
> Fr. Anthony
---------------------------------------------------------------------
And CLERICALISM is a lie and abuse of clerical authority which has NO place in
Orthodoxy. The Bishops, priests, deeacons work WITH the laos in the Church. The
clergy don't rule against the laos. The clergy are "elected" by the laos to
fulfill their Godly service. If they should abuse their power or fail to represent
the laos, they should be deposed and returned to the laity.
Orthodoxy does not believe in some ruling class called the "clergy" (bishops). All
people in the Church have their calling and serve accordingly. When the clergy are
against the "people of God," rightfully they are to be deposed!
Totalitarianism is NOT an Orthodox concept. It is an abuse of clerical authority!
Mike Craney
Mike
nick cobb wrote in message <36771529...@cris.com>...
HarryCoin
You should read the statement signed by the clergy expressing their concern on
the topic. And nobody brought the masons or the boy scouts or the rotary club
or the IRS into the equation.
Look, the complaints are not against monasticism or this or that monestary or
that those who are complaining are all perfect or even good struggling
Christians.
Its about basic stuff like multiple eye witness accounts of cultish behaviour
to the point that clergy just want to have the background known and set
straight. That's all.
HarryCoin
such letters. Can you either post or provide links to any such public
writings?>
Its what they meant in the "rise of fundamentalism and legalisms" and so on.
Look on Voithia in the Fr. Paris complaint and in the full page ad in the Kyrix
recently and the Kyrix article specifically for details and the past article
about the episode with the boy that ended badly.
Troyen
to the point that clergy just want to have the background known and set
straight. That's all.
>
That is actually generally reasonable, but you not being an eyewitness simply
become another internet kook spreading gossip, hearsay and lies. So why don't
you call the man yourself?
sinner, troyen
Wayne Andres
Hmmm....7.5 years.....being a man? I think that might be a bit whacko, but
that's just my dumb opinion. I think this is where a married parish priest
might make a much better spiritual father.
--
Wayne
mailto:wayne...@sprint.ca
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
Jack
-----------------------
caedm...@aol.comments (Caedmontwo) wrote:
>>Can anyone name some Monasteries in the GOA not founded by Elder Ephraim?
>>That
>>is all I ask at this point.
>St. Gregory Palamas in Ohio
>St. Irene Chrysovalantou (brought in with the Old Calendar bishops recently) in
>New York
>Presentation of our Lord in Pennsylvania
>Nativity of St. John the Baptist in Denver
>(all for men)
>Caedmon
***************************************
Give the disease and offer the remedy
Pyong chu ko yak chun ta
***************************************
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
Jack
------------------
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
Can you support this idea?
What appear to be posting is that the clergy are elected (Anabaptist concept).
When the clergy are unpopular with the laity they should be defrocked.
Can you support that Fr. E is engaging in
"(1864) a policy of maintaining or increasing the poiwer of a religious
hierarchy."
It seems clear that you are anti celebate priests, and monastics.
It is also quite clear that you post "facts" you can't provide proof for.
Jack
--------------------------------------
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>Joseph Allison wrote:
>>...By the way, before the venom starts flowing that "...this is AMERICA..." -
>>that makes no difference. The Church is *not* a democracy. Period. It can't be
>>and won't be.
>>Fr. Anthony
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>And CLERICALISM is a lie and abuse of clerical authority which has NO place in
>Orthodoxy. The Bishops, priests, deeacons work WITH the laos in the Church. The
>clergy don't rule against the laos. The clergy are "elected" by the laos to
>fulfill their Godly service. If they should abuse their power or fail to
represent
>the laos, they should be deposed and returned to the laity.
>
>Orthodoxy does not believe in some ruling class called the "clergy" (bishops).
All
>people in the Church have their calling and serve accordingly. When the clergy
are
>against the "people of God," rightfully they are to be deposed!
>
>Totalitarianism is NOT an Orthodox concept. It is an abuse of clerical
authority!
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
Fr. E no longer threatens the US goverment :-)
"The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like each other."
-- Post proof.
"The Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually,
lets Ephraim influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin!
Unchecked, its only a matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in
control of the GOA."
--- Post Proof
"Say good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests."
-- Why
>CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
--- Yes lets do away with "celbate" and promote your visions of priestesses.
Jack
----------------------
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother. The
>Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually, lets
Ephraim
>influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked, its
only a
>matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA. Say
>good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
>
>CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
----------------------
>Caedmontwo wrote:
>>...That's correct, Fr. John, as I posted before. The EP was the one who had
>>authority to release Fr. Ephraim from Mt. Athos, and did so. It was the EP,
his
>>exarch Abp. Spyridon, and individual bishop in each diocese who had authority
>>to allow him to found monasteries and have done so (in the case where a bishop
>>did not give him such permission, he did not found a monastery). And the
>>monasteries he has founded are under the authority of the local bishops.
>>If I recall correctly, this round of posts started with a report that a
>>proposal is on the table to make those monasteries stavrophegial, in which
case
>>they would no longer answer to the local bishops, but rather to the exarch.
>>Caedmon
HarryCoin
become another internet kook spreading gossip, hearsay and lies. So why don't
you call the man yourself?>
Because it wouldn't settle anything. To settle this one takes a public
statement from those whose authority to act +Ephraim is operating under.
Also because I'm taking a break from all this, I handed over the last records
and boxes of stuff I had yesterday evening. I felt like Bilbo handing off
the ring.
Mike Craney
I personally agree with you. We have options. My spiritual father
is the abbott of one of the Ephraimite monasteries, and when I ask for
guidance regarding one of these pithy matters, he defers me to my
parish priest.
However, if I were to insist on his guidance, I would place myself in a
position of having to obey, and not whine about the sentence. What I
am reacting to here is the notion of "buffet style" confession, where
a person may build for himself an array of confessors, then pick the
penance that suits him the best. Not good.
On the broader issue, I have been divorced for some time, and although
I would be misleading everyone by characterizing myself as overly
spiritual, I can tell you that it is perfectly possible to substitute prayer
for sexual
activity in a satisfactory manner. (If you really want to.)
Michael>
sp...@erols.com
HarryCoin wrote:
> Also because I'm taking a break from all this, I handed over the last records
> and boxes of stuff I had yesterday evening. I felt like Bilbo handing off
> the ring.
Have an unemcumbered CHristmas, then!
Catherine Hampton
wrote:
: In article <19981215074901...@ng-bw1.aol.com>, harr...@aol.com
: says...
:>There was recently announced a "charter" for the monestaries. Some used to
:>be under the Metropolitans, and this "charter" was produced without
:>involvement of the pastors or the laity
: Harry *still* doesn't get it.
: The Orthodox Church is a *hierarchical* Church. The "pastors or the laity"
: have absolutely nothing to say in the regard.
: By the way, before the venom starts flowing that "...this is AMERICA..." -
: that makes no difference. The Church is *not* a democracy. Period. It
: can't be and won't be.
You know, this is a bit scary for me, as someone who spent ten years
in a rigidly hierarchical religious cult. (The International Church of
Christ/Boston Church of Christ.) I'm not in the GOA, and have pretty
carefully stayed out of the current dispute, but this statement involves
a lot more than the current trouble in the GOA. It sounds to me like
you are rejecting the collegial nature of the Orthodox Church, and the
role the laity plays in determining what is Orthodox.
Orthodox Tradition does =NOT= allow bishops simply to do as they please
without restraint, as I understand it, and it does give the laity a
role in determining whether something is Orthodox or not. Frankly, if
this were not the case, I would not have become Orthodox. I've spent
enough time in an authoritarian religious hierarchy for any ten
lifetimes. :(
I hope I misunderstood you, Father.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.hrweb.org/orthodox/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Troyen
I think you have misunderstood to an extent. The Orthodox Church needs strong
leaders to deal with the wolves that would ravage the flock. In an ideal
Church these leaders would come from only the most accomplished and intelligent
Archimandrites. Well, monastacism is not what it once was and some leaders are
lacking, as we all are and always have been.
However, even the greatest Bishop cannot change the nature of the Church. The
Laity will rebel if the Bishop promotes something non-Orthodox.
Example:
A "strong" Bishop declares that ALL converts will be recieved by Chrismation
and only babies born into Orthodox families are to be Baptized. Well, some
Priests would leave, maybe some Bishops would form a resistence group, but most
would stay. However, guess what? Those who stayed would continue to be
Orthodox and many would sponsor secret "camping" trips that just "happened" to
occure near running waters and of course Baptisms would occur. Then eventually
the Bishop would die and the Orthodox Church would mend and the Laity would
continue Baptizing in the open.
How does that sound? Even a truly "cultic" bishop has no power over the
Orthodox Tradition. "The gates of hell shall not prevail..."
Also, remember that the "kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent
take it by force."
sinner, troyen
nick cobb
Wayne Andres wrote:
> ...Hmmm....7.5 years.....being a man? I think that might be a bit whacko, but
> that's just my dumb opinion. I think this is where a married parish priest
> might make a much better spiritual father.
>
> --
> Wayne
> mailto:wayne...@sprint.ca
---------------------------------------------------------------------
HERE, HERE!
nick cobb
trouble with the GOA over money this past year, where do you think he got the money
to repay the GOA treasury? From Ephraim, of course!
So where did Ephraim get this money (big bucks)????????????????
What poor, unsuspecting repentants gave away their life savings??????????
And why are these accounts SECRET????????????????
nick cobb
ferg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Nick
> Can you support this idea?
> What appear to be posting is that the clergy are elected (Anabaptist concept).
> When the clergy are unpopular with the laity they should be defrocked.
>
> Can you support that Fr. E is engaging in
> "(1864) a policy of maintaining or increasing the poiwer of a religious
> hierarchy."
>
> It seems clear that you are anti celebate priests, and monastics.
> It is also quite clear that you post "facts" you can't provide proof for.
>
> Jack
> --------------------------------------
Talk to Doc, Harry, the GOA Metropolitans or the Archons of the GOA!
nick cobb
ELENI53 wrote:
> In article <36772167...@cris.com>, nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> writes:
>
> >The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother. The
> >Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually, lets
> >Ephraim
> >influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked, its
> >only a
> >matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA. Say
> >good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
> >
> >CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
>
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
> Ok, let's take the first sentence:
> >The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother.
>
> For this to be anything other than pure gossip - either Father Ephraim, or
> Patriacrch Bartolomeos would have posted it. And so Nick, once again, you are
> posting gossip....
--------------------------------------------------------------
WRONG AGAIN! If YOU don't know, go find out. Don't participate in areas you know
nothing about!
nick cobb
LADAIntnet wrote:
> Dear Eleni:
>
> Your post was very good, but unfortunately, it's absolutely useless to argue
> with Nick. He will only insult you and will use your posts to keep spreading
> heavily biased information without offering any proof whatsoever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, are you sure you're not related to Jack?
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
The bishop has certain authority e.g. baptism, ordination, the laity do not
have.
When the bishop clearly preaches herasy etc as the council of florence then it
is time to dispose him.
The Orthodox isn't the same structure as the protestant churches.
As much as Nick likes to try and talk about his Edsel model vs. Med model the
churches of Greece don't appear to be so rigid. Look at the incidents in the
life of St. Nektarios, the laity often joined in driving him out listening to
gossip. The modern church of Greece seems to be pretty fluid with all of the
current changes as well. I think we are setting up a false choice here.
Teh issue with comrade Archb and some others is not one of authoirty it is one
of corruption.
Jack
-------------------
Catherine Hampton <x...@hrweb.org> wrote:
>Joseph Allison wrote:
>:In article harr...@aol.com
>:>There was recently announced a "charter" for the monestaries. Some used to
>:>be under the Metropolitans, and this "charter" was produced without
>:>involvement of the pastors or the laity
>:Harry *still* doesn't get it.
>:The Orthodox Church is a *hierarchical* Church. The "pastors or the laity"
>:have absolutely nothing to say in the regard.
>:By the way, before the venom starts flowing that "...this is AMERICA..." -
>:that makes no difference. The Church is *not* a democracy. Period. It
>:can't be and won't be.
>You know, this is a bit scary for me, as someone who spent ten years
>in a rigidly hierarchical religious cult. (The International Church of
>Christ/Boston Church of Christ.) I'm not in the GOA, and have pretty
>carefully stayed out of the current dispute, but this statement involves
>a lot more than the current trouble in the GOA. It sounds to me like
>you are rejecting the collegial nature of the Orthodox Church, and the
>role the laity plays in determining what is Orthodox.
>Orthodox Tradition does =NOT= allow bishops simply to do as they please
>without restraint, as I understand it, and it does give the laity a
>role in determining whether something is Orthodox or not. Frankly, if
>this were not the case, I would not have become Orthodox. I've spent
>enough time in an authoritarian religious hierarchy for any ten
>lifetimes. :(
>I hope I misunderstood you, Father.
>Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
ELENI53
>The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother. The
>Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually, lets
>Ephraim
>influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked, its
>only a
>matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA. Say
>good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
>
>CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Ok, let's take the first sentence:
>The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother.
For this to be anything other than pure gossip - either Father Ephraim, or
Patriacrch Bartolomeos would have posted it. And so Nick, once again, you are
posting gossip.
Second sentence:
>The Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually,
lets
>Ephraim influence him and +Spyridon greatly.
For this to be anything other than pure gossip - either the chancellor of the
GOA (what's his name by the way?), or Archbishop Spyridon would have posted it.
Therefore, again, you are posting gossip.
Third sentence:
>Somewhat like Rasputin!
Your own opinion (?) and one, I might add, that is based on gossip and
slander... NOT first hand knowledge.
Finally:
>Unchecked, its only a matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in
control of >the GOA. Say good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married
priests.
>
>CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
Really Nick. Is it any wonder you come up with this garbage when you base your
sensationalistic theories on nonsensical gossip and slander. Is it any wonder
why few reading this take you seriously?
Love,
eleni
LADAIntnet
Your post was very good, but unfortunately, it's absolutely useless to argue
with Nick. He will only insult you and will use your posts to keep spreading
heavily biased information without offering any proof whatsoever.
Except for a couple of other Orthodoxy-haters nobody on this newsgroup takes
him seriously anymore and the only thing we can actually do is pray for him.
Sinner Ioann Z.
sp...@erols.com
LADAIntnet wrote:
Dear Ioann,
I take Nick seriously and I also take seriously putting words and actions of
others besides yourself in the future tense as in the "He will only insult you"
sentence above.
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
something allude to it being factual then when asked to back it up you wimp
out and tell others to post the proof or just get a bit more rude. If you
can't back it up - don't post it. Do you believe that doc, harry and the GOA
met support the election of clergy and bishops. do you beleive they support
your other realted causes e.g. priestess?
Jack
-------------------------------
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>ferg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>Nick
>>Can you support this idea?
>>What appear to be posting is that the clergy are elected (Anabaptist concept).
>>When the clergy are unpopular with the laity they should be defrocked.
>>Can you support that Fr. E is engaging in
>>"(1864) a policy of maintaining or increasing the poiwer of a religious
>>hierarchy."
>>It seems clear that you are anti celebate priests, and monastics.
>>It is also quite clear that you post "facts" you can't provide proof for.
>>Jack
>>-----------------------------------
>
>Talk to Doc, Harry, the GOA Metropolitans or the Archons of the GOA!
***************************************
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
you want to know if it's true go find out. I assume you are no longer a
preteen and have a sufficent grip on reality to understand what you are doing.
You do far more to discredit ideas and posts that are somewhat in agreement
with you than anything someone in an opposition could do.
Your more rcent posts allude to how you, Harry and Doc are in agreement and if
folks want proof go to them. Do you receive your information from Harry and
Doc? They have both worked hard if you can't keep from discrediting at least
discredit yourself only.
Jack
------------------------
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>WRONG AGAIN! If YOU don't know, go find out. Don't participate in areas you
know
>nothing about!>
>ELENI53 wrote:
>>In article <36772167...@cris.com>, nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> writes:
>>>The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother. The
>>>Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually, lets
> > >Ephraim
> > >influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked, its
> > >only a
> > >matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA.
Say
> > >good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
> > >
> > >CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
> >
> > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> >
> > Ok, let's take the first sentence:
> > >The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother.
> >
> > For this to be anything other than pure gossip - either Father Ephraim, or
> > Patriacrch Bartolomeos would have posted it. And so Nick, once again, you
are
> > posting gossip....
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
asked - If they are secret how do you know - What is you source or soem
kind of proof. You just post stuff again never backing anything up.
Jack
-----------------------------
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
brother and over there, just over there standing (of course never seated) is
our brother Alban.
Nick
I must say I enjoy many of your posts like much I like I use to enjoy reading
the writings of some of my patients. Well actually they were somewhat more
insightful.
Jack
-----------------------
ni...@cris.com wrote:
>LADAIntnet wrote:
>>Dear Eleni:
>>Your post was very good, but unfortunately, it's absolutely useless to argue
>>with Nick. He will only insult you and will use your posts to keep spreading
>>heavily biased information without offering any proof whatsoever.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Gee, are you sure you're not related to Jack?
***************************************
ferg...@my-dejanews.com
offensive? Do you find comparisons of our Lords cruixification and the
impeachemnt of the morally challenged president offensive? do you find
support for female clergy, elected clergy, doing away with monastic clergy
"unOrthodox"? They are not postions supported by the OCA, or Nicks bishop or
any clergy of the OCA that I know.
Jack
---------------------------
sp...@erols.com wrote:
>LADAIntnet wrote:
>>Dear Eleni:
>>Your post was very good, but unfortunately, it's absolutely useless to argue
>>with Nick. He will only insult you and will use your posts to keep spreading
>>heavily biased information without offering any proof whatsoever.
>>Except for a couple of other Orthodoxy-haters nobody on this newsgroup takes
>>him seriously anymore and the only thing we can actually do is pray for him.
>>Sinner Ioann Z.
>Dear Ioann,
>I take Nick seriously and I also take seriously putting words and actions of
>others besides yourself in the future tense as in the "He will only insult you"
>sentence above.
sp...@erols.com
ferg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> It is one of Nicks few consistencys. Do you find posts of gossip and slander
> offensive? Do you find comparisons of our Lords cruixification and the
> impeachemnt of the morally challenged president offensive? do you find
> support for female clergy, elected clergy, doing away with monastic clergy
> "unOrthodox"? They are not postions supported by the OCA, or Nicks bishop or
> any clergy of the OCA that I know.
>
> Jack
Dear Jack,
One does not have to support ALL the views of someone to take them seriously and to
enjoy their contributions.
Galina
CGL
Republican.
Manos
>> Oh, and let's not forget the SECRET bank accounts. When +Spyridon got
>> into to trouble with the GOA over money this past year, where do you think
>> he got the
> money
>> to repay the GOA treasury? From Ephraim, of course!
>>
>> So where did Ephraim get this money (big bucks)????????????????
>>
>> What poor, unsuspecting repentants gave away their life savings??????????
>>
>> And why are these accounts SECRET????????????????
>>
>>
Sounds like X-files: the truth is out there! Sorry, just kidding. But it really
was the first thing that came to my mind reading all this. I am not going to
say that you are wrong in all this and show me your proofs. I haven't got a
clue about all this... I live in Greece, right? But I want to pinpoint a couple
of things...
1. Are you angry with Fr Ephraim? You sound like you are really disliking this
person. And if this is true, I am more concerned with you than some thousand or
even million dollars. A soul is more important than all the riches in the
world, IMO.
2. If you are not aware with the story of St Nektarios you should try to get
hold of a book on his life. It is amazing how things change. He was sent away
from Alexandria in disgrace. Accusations would not let him in peace for years.
They wouldn't even let him do what he did best. He was left without a Parish
for a long time. When he was finally sent to Evia he was booed by the crowd and
he was called a hypocrite and a Pharise. You see how fast accusations travel.
It can take hours to disgrace a person for life. But it takes a lifetime of
prayer, devotion and love towards God and Man to make a Saint out of a person.
3. Even if what you say is true... what is that to you? Can that stop you from
believing the One and Only True God? Can it stop you from receiving His Grace
through the Mysteries? There are worse things happening in this world that
people loosing their money and we should thank God for not being in a worse
situation than we are today. If those people gave their money in the name of
our Lord, this is accounted. They wasted their life-time savings and gained
much much more in return. What a great deal! But If a priest has used this
money in his own interest, that's also accounted and is something you should
pity him for, because he is lost. You should pray for him, he really needs it.
God is Love, but He is also Justice. He sees all, we see nothing. Do you think
that if a Father has sinned, God is expecting a report from you or me to know
this? Do you feel capable of doing His job? A priest who advises people on
their sins and how to avoid them, who pardons them for these sins, who can tell
what is sin and what not is appointed to do so by God. The pardon is not his
but of the Holy Spirit. The rest of us have no such authority.
According to St Cosmas all priests are above all men and even kings. They are
above angels. If you invite for dinner a king and a priest, you should keep the
best seat for the priest.
--
May God be with you
Emmanouil Krokos
Manos
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:54:46 +0200, Catherine Hampton wrote
(in message <3677f3e6$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>):
> Orthodox Tradition does =NOT= allow bishops simply to do as they please
> without restraint, as I understand it, and it does give the laity a role in
> determining whether something is Orthodox or not. Frankly, if this were not
> the case, I would not have become Orthodox. I've spent enough time in an
> authoritarian religious hierarchy for any ten lifetimes. :(
I am not so sure of this. Laity has wrongfully accused innocent people in lots
of occasions. Remember St Nektarios? Do you want to take this risk? And, no,
Orthodox Church is not a democracy. Thank God for that. In my opinion, this is
the reason it has been fully functional for 2000 years, contrary to other
Churches.
Catherine Hampton
In alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Manos <mkr...@usa.net> wrote:
: On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:54:46 +0200, Catherine Hampton wrote
It's necessary to take the risk if you allow anyone (laity or clergy)
to accuse anyone else of anything -- all human beings are fallible.
And if you deny people the right to accuse others, you take a different
risk. There's no truly safe system in a fallen world. (That's a
lesson you learn well after being in a cult.)
If we really believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church, though,
then it is possible to live without hard and fast rules that try to
apply one set of parameters to all situations regardless of the people
and circumstances. This is something I love about Orthodoxy, too --
it doesn't have the legalistic mindset that makes this kind of thing
possible. (Or, perhaps, inevitable.) :/
Caedmontwo
>and to
>enjoy their contributions.
Dear Galina:
It is not about supporting any or all of the views of this "someone" or
enjoying his various forwards. It is about the repeated proof that it is
impossible to hold a constructive conversation with him because disagreement
will inevitably lead to insults, ad hominem attacks, rumor, slander, and simple
childishness.
I don't have a killfile, but I delete every post by him as soon as I see the
title because I have found that it is not worth the peace of my own soul to
read his foolishness. The only problem is that he continues to assert his
personal opinions as the position of the Church. It is bad enough when he does
so with opinions that are common, but he also does so with his own bizarre
theories and heterodox doctrines as well.
No one is saying you can't or shouldn't continue to read him. If you want to
fine. But don't expect the rest of us to give even an implicit approval to
someone who regularly drags the Church through the mud by associating his
behaviors with it.
Caedmon
"Attain the Spirit of peace and thousands around you will be saved"
--St. Seraphim of Sarov
(remove "ments" to reply)
Fr. John Morris
his followers. Let them refrain from judging others and never criticize the bishops
and priests who are out in the trenches and let everyone else refrain from judging
Fr. Ephraim and his followers. Let Fr. Ephraim not tell the clergy in the parishes
how to be parish priests, and let the parish priests not tell Fr. Ephraim how to be
a monk.
Archpriest John W. Morris
Manos wrote:
Walkermonk
>From: CGL <C...@mci.com>
>Date: 12/17/98 4:17 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <367982EB...@mci.com>
>
>Interesting this person thinks they represent everyone here. Must be a
>Republican.
>
>
Well, I am a Republican (more often than not), and I didn't write that, so . .
. try your political anology again. Once more with feeling! A one and a two!
:-)
Grace
Catherine Hampton
: It seems to me that there is a simple solution to the problem of Fr. Ephraim and
: his followers. Let them refrain from judging others and never criticize the bishops
: and priests who are out in the trenches and let everyone else refrain from judging
: Fr. Ephraim and his followers. Let Fr. Ephraim not tell the clergy in the parishes
: how to be parish priests, and let the parish priests not tell Fr. Ephraim how to be
: a monk.
Father, if you can think of a way to persuade people to go along with
this, I'll support it 100%. Not judging is something we need to practice
around here, especially in the middle of (or toward the end of, for some
of us) the Nativity Fast. :>
ELENI53
>WRONG AGAIN! If YOU don't know, go find out. Don't participate in areas you
>know
>nothing about!
How do you know *I don't know*?
How do you know I haven't gon to find out?
How dare you tell me which areas I can/cannot participate in!
Shame on you!!!!!!
eleni
ELENI53
>Eleni Eleni it it is you really you, don't you remember I am your long lost
>brother and over there, just over there standing (of course never seated) is
>our brother Alban.
It seems, dear brother, that you, me and Alban are joined at the hip in this
particular topic <grin>
Love,
eleni
ELENI53
In article <36798862...@bellsouth.net>, "Fr. John Morris"
<frj...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>It seems to me that there is a simple solution to the problem of Fr. Ephraim
>and
>his followers. Let them refrain from judging others and never criticize the
>bishops
>and priests who are out in the trenches and let everyone else refrain from
>judging
>Fr. Ephraim and his followers. Let Fr. Ephraim not tell the clergy in the
>parishes
>how to be parish priests, and let the parish priests not tell Fr. Ephraim how
>to be
>a monk.
>
>
Father Bless,
This sounds pretty sensible to me Father - we should expecially avoid judgment
of things that we do not have the entire turth at hand - or at least firsthand
knowledge.
Love,
eleni
ELENI53
Dear Manos,
You certainly have a way with words and getting to the TRUTH of the matter -
that which is most important in life. I so enjoy your contributions to the
conversation.
evfraristo poli!
Love,
eleni
<snipped Niccobb rantings>
sp...@erols.com
Caedmontwo wrote:
That is not the point. The point is ad hominem attacks, generalizations. These
are hurtful to even read
sp...@erols.com
Catherine Hampton wrote:
> In alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox Fr. John Morris <frj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> : It seems to me that there is a simple solution to the problem of Fr. Ephraim and
> : his followers. Let them refrain from judging others and never criticize the bishops
> : and priests who are out in the trenches and let everyone else refrain from judging
> : Fr. Ephraim and his followers. Let Fr. Ephraim not tell the clergy in the parishes
> : how to be parish priests, and let the parish priests not tell Fr. Ephraim how to be
> : a monk.
>
> Father, if you can think of a way to persuade people to go along with
> this, I'll support it 100%. Not judging is something we need to practice
> around here, especially in the middle of (or toward the end of, for some
> of us) the Nativity Fast. :>
>
I second that for there ought to be room at the CHristian Inn for both monk and lay
person.
sp...@erols.com
ELENI53 wrote:
And if bitscribe of Aol were here, he would be in the group too as he is a
devotee of Monk Efreem.
Christo J. Balouris
nick cobb wrote in message <367880E...@cris.com>...
|
|
|ELENI53 wrote:
|
|> In article <36772167...@cris.com>, nick cobb <ni...@cris.com>
writes:
|>
|> >The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother.
The
|> >Chancellor of the GOA is the "Prime Disciple" of Ephraim and actually,
lets
|> >Ephraim
|> >influence him and +Spyridon greatly. Somewhat like Rasputin! Unchecked,
its
|> >only a
|> >matter of time before all the Ephraimites will be in control of the GOA.
Say
|> >good-bye lay leaders, run and hide you married priests.
|> >
|> >CELIBATE CLERICALISM rules the GOA now!
|>
|> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
|>
|> Ok, let's take the first sentence:
|> >The EP does not have any use for Ephraim; they do not like eachother.
|>
|> For this to be anything other than pure gossip - either Father Ephraim,
or
|> Patriacrch Bartolomeos would have posted it. And so Nick, once again,
you are
|> posting gossip....
|
|--------------------------------------------------------------
|
know
|nothing about!
|
Fr. Ephraim is here with the EXPRESS permission and blessing of the EP.
What are you smoking?
Christo J. Balouris
nick cobb wrote in message <367874BC...@cris.com>...
|Oh, and let's not forget the SECRET bank accounts. When +Spyridon got into
to
|trouble with the GOA over money this past year, where do you think he got
the money
|to repay the GOA treasury? From Ephraim, of course!
|
Where did you get this information? Personally, I think that this is total
BS.
nick cobb
sp...@erols.com wrote:
> Dear Jack,
>
> One does not have to support ALL the views of someone to take them seriously and to
> enjoy their contributions.
>
> Galina
>
> > ---------------------------
Galina:
You must understand, this person so-called Jack, who hides behind a phony e-mail
address, has a bone to pick. If you go back and notice all of [its] posts, many are
very similar to other people on this list. For argument sake, could "Jack" by an alias
of two or three others on this NG?
This person doesn't address the topics or discussion, but attacks people. The lowest
form of intelligence. A fool is a fool is a fool!
Reader Alban Mosher
Troyen <tro...@aol.com> wrote in message news:19981217220013...@ng-cf1.aol.com...Hmm>I think I would rather deal with Saddam than with N___ C___. Saddam has a
>sense of humour.
>
BAAAHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!
I would rather shoot Sadamm then shott N___C____, One would get me prison time
the other would get me a big fat medal on my Chest!
ahhahah, that was fun, let's do it again!
sinner, troyen
nick cobb
Manos wrote:
> ...Sounds like X-files: the truth is out there! Sorry, just kidding. But it
> really
> was the first thing that came to my mind reading all this. I am not going to
> say that you are wrong in all this and show me your proofs. I haven't got a
> clue about all this... I live in Greece, right? But I want to pinpoint a couple
> of things...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Manos:
If you were to investigate who owns all the secret bank accounts and private villas
in the Mediterranean, not to mention Swiss bank accounts, you'd be quite surprised!