Non-orthodox godparent/sponsor
jsh...@my-deja.com
in a Greek Orthodox church. We have a 14 month old son we are now ready
to baptise. We have chosen Nathaniel's godparent based on many factors
(but exluding their religion) and we have chosen a fantastic, god
fearing (his father is a repsected vicar in the Church of England), kind
and caring true friend, but he is not orthodox. Now we find that the
Greek church will not allow him to stand as godfather.
We understand the theological reasons behind these rules but are now on
the point of turning our back on the orthodox church because of this. We
have asked if Nathaniel's grandmother can act as the orthodox 'helper'
but this has been refused, nor would he be able to just participate in
any of the rituals.
I find it a bit sad that we would have to literally ask a stranger to be
Nathaniel's godparent (my wife's mother is the only Orthodox person who
could be with us in the UK for a baptism). But at the same time I am
angry when I read that Prince William stood as godparent to Prince
Konstantine Alexios, grandson of King Constantine, last year and took
part in the ceremony. I hope this is not another example of one rule for
the elite and another for the masses...
Any advice or views greatly appreciated.
Jonathan.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MonkeyJo
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8pri2r$s0k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
John Peters
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8pri2r$s0k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I am a non-orthodox christian, my wife is Greek Orthodox and we married
>in a Greek Orthodox church. We have a 14 month old son we are now ready
>to baptise. We have chosen Nathaniel's godparent based on many factors
Jonathan-
There are reasons the Church insists upon an Orthodox sponsor (Godparent).
This person will be reading the Creed and vouching for the Orthodox faith
and in essense pledging that they are committed to seeing, as much as is
possible, that your son will be brought up as an Orthodox Christian.
The Church is very strict about this and has laws (canons) which deal with
the nature of this. Baptism is much more than a social event, it is first
and foremost a spiritual reality.
I feel sorry for you but think you should try to accept the wisdom of the
Church over your own very real yet personal feelings which seem to make you
see things only from your perspective.
What is the perspective of your Greek Orthodox wife, her family, your (her)
priest in all this? You did marry her and understand her faith, no?
As for Prince William, that sounds like there might have been another
sponsor, the real one (the Church requires only one) might well have been
Orthodox, as the Church requires.
John
jsh...@my-deja.com
Thanks for you reply. I am a Catholic myself and as they have the same
canons regarding sponsors so I do I understand, as I said, the theology
behind such rules. I also understand that all christian religions
worship the same god only in different ways and that these canons are
created by humans to keep people in their own denomination because they
believe that their method of worship is the correct one. In this case,
such rules could well fail their purpose. As far as we are concerned, if
Nathaniels is baptised Greek Orrthodox, he will be taught their ways and
his godparent would see to that too.
Anyway, I knew of this but understood from other orthodox christians
that if one sponsor was orthodox, any others could take part in the
ceremony. We have spoken to two priests who both say they have checked
with the church in the UK and cannot allow the non-orthodox sponsor to
take part.(I clearly saw Prince William carrying his godchild around the
alter.) They also say that the orthodox sponsor cannot be the childs
grandmother. Nor can any non-orthodox sponsors appear on the baptism
certificate, even if there was an orthodox primary sponsor. Is there
anywhere where the Greek Orthodox canons are published on the net? I
would like to see these rules myself if possible. Also, can I request a
copy of someone else's baptism certificate? I would like to see Prince
William's godson's certificate for evidence of the prince's name.
I am not anti-religion but as a human in all areas of life I truly
believe is is healthy to challenge anything I am unsure about and not
just to follow blindly where instructed. I am also vehemently against
any unfairness - hence the Prince William thing.
Jonathan.
In article <iWdw5.28240$M37.6...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
V1_0
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks for you reply. I am a Catholic myself and as they have the same
> canons regarding sponsors so I do I understand, as I said, the
theology
> behind such rules. I also understand that all christian religions
> worship the same god only in different ways and that these canons are
> created by humans to keep people in their own denomination because
they
> believe that their method of worship is the correct one.
[Much else snipped]
Not entirely. The cannons are created to keep people from wandering
down the wrong path, or to assist with spirituality. The Church has
always known that people would wander off, and heresies of all sorts
would be taught and embraced so this sort of thing is nothing new. The
cannons are focused on those who respect the Church - not those who
don't. They can only 'keep people in their own denomination' if the
people want to stay in their own denomination.
In response to the real issue in your post, it seems to me that when
you say "all christian religions worship the same god only in different
ways" you are implying that those ways are all equivilent. And
there's a whole set of doctrines and teaching that accompanies that
worship - and something that seems to be of little importance may have
a large effect. For example, many protestants deny the title "Mother
of God" to Mary - without realizing that by doing so they are impacting
the incarnation of Jesus. They reject Icons - and by doing so they
deny the incarnation of Jesus, and the foreshadowing of the Law of
Moses. They reject the continium of saints - and by doing so deny the
resurrection of Jesus. Things that look good and serve the letter of
the law, but that ultimately pervert the intent of the law. What I am
saying is that little (non external) things *can* be important and have
a major impact on the (non external) woship. Don't be deceived by the
external worship of a religion - the theology must be right too.
-V
Atsaves
wedding. And you agreed to them.
Now you want to change the "rules" to suit your own wishes. And you are
claiming that you will turn your back on the GO Church because of its "rules"
after you had previously agreed to its "rules."
And this, my friend, comes from someone who married a Roman Catholic close to
20 years ago. We knew the "rules" then too. And we agreed to abide by them.
Still do.
In this world populated by billions of people, someone exists who can be a
godparent to your soon to be baptized child that would meet these "rules."
Find one. Stop looking for loopholes.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Non-orthodox godparent/sponsor
From: jsh...@my-deja.com
Date: Thu, Sep 14, 2000 5:05 PM
Message-id: <8pri2r$s0k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
I am a non-orthodox christian, my wife is Greek Orthodox and we married in a
Greek Orthodox church. We have a 14 month old son we are now ready to baptise.
We have chosen Nathaniel's godparent based on many factors (but exluding their
religion) and we have chosen a fantastic, god fearing (his father is a
repsected vicar in the Church of England), kind and caring true friend, but he
is not orthodox. Now we find that the Greek church will not allow him to stand
as godfather. We understand the theological reasons behind these rules but are
now on the point of turning our back on the orthodox church because of this. We
have asked if Nathaniel's grandmother can act as the orthodox 'helper' but this
has been refused, nor would he be able to just participate in any of the
rituals.
I find it a bit sad that we would have to literally ask a stranger to be
Nathaniel's godparent (my wife's mother is the only Orthodox person who could
be with us in the UK for a baptism). But at the same time I am angry when I
read that Prince William stood as godparent to Prince Konstantine Alexios,
grandson of King Constantine, last year and took part in the ceremony. I hope
this is not another example of one rule for the elite and another for the
masses... Any advice or views greatly appreciated.
Jonathan.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
>>
jsh...@my-deja.com
told at the time that we could have a non-orthodox person as an
additional godparent who could take some part in the ceremony and be
included on the certificate as long as we had at least one orthodox
godparent. We were also told that my wife's mother could be that
orthodox godparent. Both things have now been taken back by our priest.
I take it from your reply that you feel that the inclusion of Prince
William as godparent to Prince Konstantine Alexios was using a
'loophole' and that he should not have been included? Or is he just not
recognised as a godparent in your eyes (but seems to have been by the
priest)? I would very much like to know if he appears on the baptism
certificate.
I also take it from your reply that you feel picking just anyone who
happens to be greek orthodox is in the best interests of our child and
his future as part of the GO church. I fail to see how if Nathaniel has
a sponsor he will probably never see again this will help him in his
christianity or any other part of his hopefully long life.
I don't want to go into the detail of our other circumstances, but the
ONLY GO person other than my wife who we know and will be able to
baptise our son is his grandmother.
If the church says the only way for our son to be baptised is by just
'finding' a GO person to do it that we do not know, the the religion is
clearly not suitable for our circumstances. This is sad because we are
both more than happy with the GO church and its teachings otherwise.
In article <20000916000236...@ng-bh1.aol.com>,
Atsaves
To answer your questions and concerns as best as I can:
1. The "inclusion" of Prince William as godparent to Prince Konstantine
Alexios, if it was as a real sponsor or godparent, is wrong. Someone not of
the Orthodox faith cannot be godfather. Otherwise, how in the world can he
responsibly meet his obligations to assist in raising and assisting the young
one in his faith? This rule also exists in my wife's Roman Catholic Church. I
cannot be a sponsor to a child baptised in the Catholic Church. I am not Roman
Catholic.
Perhaps it happened the same way when I baptized a child after my marriage.
But my name only appears on the baptismal certificate, not the name of my Roman
Catholic wife. My wife is politely referred to as a godmother in social
circles when everyone is well aware that she is not. But the responsibility
is mine, not hers. We, the parents of the child, and the Church all
understand, acknowledge and accept this. Your non-GO friend may be the most
wonderful and pious person in the world, but he cannot accept such a
responsiblity in a GO baptism. You, your wife and he all need to accept this.
I too would be curious about seeing the baptismal certificate for Prince
Konstantine Alexios under these circumstances. There are no "loopholes."
2. When I tell you to "find" a GO to serve as godparent, I didn't tell you
to merely grab the first one you see walking down the street. If I left you
with that impression, please accept my apologies. It seems from your posting
that you spent a great deal of time, thought and research in choosing your
non-GO friend to be a godfather. You can expend the same amount of time,
research and effort to find a GO sponsor. It is a stretch of belief for you to
claim that your mother in law is the "only" GO person that you both know. Your
wife has no other relatives? Do you both attend church? There is no other
person in the congregation who you would find highly capable of serving as
sponsor? There are several GO parishes in England and this newsgroup
periodically hears from them. Do your homework! This is serious business!
3. With regards to having non-Orthodox names appearing on baptismal
certificates, or as best man or maid of honor at a GO wedding, that is a first
time I have heard of this. Again, if your intention is to have a GO baptise
your child as a proxy for a non-GO, then the Church is correct in objecting to
your intentions.
Start attending Church regularly. There are plenty of capable candidates to
sponsor your child in baptism out there. Just don't pick anyone. Just don't
try to re-write "the rules." And when I was asked to serve as a sponsor, I was
both touched and honored.
It isn't easy being a member of the GO Church when you are married to a
non-Orthodox partner, even when the Church blesses your marriage. In another
thread, an egomaniac who calls himself a "bio-engineer/financier" etc. etc. is
ranting about being "raised papal" and being "papal" and spouting off other
ignorant and moronic thoughts in a thread about Orthodox funerals.
Its hard work. You and your wife seem to be up to the task of facing the
challenges of being an inter-faith couple, and even with dealing with ignorant
bigoted morons in our Church and in the Catholic Church (check out "Gerard" in
this newsgroup sometime). It will be a lifetime battle. And you both will
become stronger and live more Christ-like lives than any of those fools who
like to talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. (citing my favorite
non-theologian, The Nature Boy, pro-wrestler, Ric Flair!)
Now make it work. Face the challenge. You can do it.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
You'll see.
<< Subject: Re: Non-orthodox godparent/sponsor
From: jsh...@my-deja.com
Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 7:04 AM
Message-id: <8pvnjn$gn6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
MonkeyJo
incorrect?
If so, call the Bishop and discuss it with him.
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8pvnjn$gn6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>We were told about this and do understand the rules but we were also
>told at the time that we could have a non-orthodox person as an
>additional godparent who could take some part in the ceremony and be
>included on the certificate as long as we had at least one orthodox
>godparent. We were also told that my wife's mother could be that
>orthodox godparent. Both things have now been taken back by our priest.
>I take it from your reply that you feel that the inclusion of Prince
>William as godparent to Prince Konstantine Alexios was using a
>'loophole' and that he should not have been included? Or is he just not
>recognised as a godparent in your eyes (but seems to have been by the
>priest)? I would very much like to know if he appears on the baptism
>certificate.
>I also take it from your reply that you feel picking just anyone who
>happens to be greek orthodox is in the best interests of our child and
>his future as part of the GO church. I fail to see how if Nathaniel has
>a sponsor he will probably never see again this will help him in his
>christianity or any other part of his hopefully long life.
>I don't want to go into the detail of our other circumstances, but the
>ONLY GO person other than my wife who we know and will be able to
>baptise our son is his grandmother.
>If the church says the only way for our son to be baptised is by just
>'finding' a GO person to do it that we do not know, the the religion is
>clearly not suitable for our circumstances. This is sad because we are
>both more than happy with the GO church and its teachings otherwise.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In article <20000916000236...@ng-bh1.aol.com>,
> ats...@aol.com (Atsaves) wrote:
Alexander Arnakis
>1. The "inclusion" of Prince William as godparent to Prince Konstantine
>Alexios, if it was as a real sponsor or godparent, is wrong. Someone not of
>the Orthodox faith cannot be godfather. Otherwise, how in the world can he
>responsibly meet his obligations to assist in raising and assisting the young
>one in his faith?
Is it beyond the pale of possibility that Prince William is
"crypto-Orthodox," that is, that he secretly converted to Orthodoxy,
perhaps on one of his trips to Mt. Athos?
Of course, such a turn of events would call into question his eventual
accession to the throne, since as king he would be required to be
"Defender of the Faith" and titular head of the Church of England...
But, if Edward VIII could give up the throne for "the woman he loved,"
isn't it conceivable that William might give up the throne for the
Church he loves??
After all, the British royals aren't the smartest people in the
world...
jsh...@my-deja.com
1. They can't be put on the baptism certificate
2. They can attend at close quarters but not partake
If both of these are correct, then I fail to see how we can refer to
the the non-GO godparent as a godparent if the church refuses to
recognise them AT ALL.
As I said in the earlier post, the only GO person who could stand as
godparent that we know in this country is the child's grandmother. This
request is also being refused.
If people in the NG think that any of these points are permissable, I
would be glad to hear from you BUT I am nervous about going to the
bishop for a ruling and having this put upon the priest as this does not
make for a good relationship in the future....
In article <8q0o2h$3kh$1...@news.chatlink.com>,
Douglas Mosier
>accession to the throne, since as king he would be required to be
>"Defender of the Faith" and titular head of the Church of England...
>
Call into question, nothing! It would disqualify him. The sovreign must be a
member of the Church of England.
>But, if Edward VIII could give up the throne for "the woman he loved,"
>isn't it conceivable that William might give up the throne for the
>Church he loves??
>
Oh, let's hope not! He's the one that monarchy needs to keep going!
dmitri
Learn Esperanto.
MonkeyJo
priest/church. Does the GO church have this written down anywhere that you
can check on, can the priest give you this in writing?
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8q27kn$5r4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
>
>Oh, let's hope not! He's the one that monarchy needs to keep going!
>
good sense to abolish the monarchy. It's an institution that has long
outlived its usefulness.
Nektarios
the "convert" list and have read this one. I don't recall this
information on the other list. If it isn't I suggest you post it there
so that the issue is clearer.
Nektarios
--------------------
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Our priest is saying that we can have a non-GO godparent but:
> 1. They can't be put on the baptism certificate
> 2. They can attend at close quarters but not partake
> If both of these are correct, then I fail to see how we can refer to
> the the non-GO godparent as a godparent if the church refuses to
> recognise them AT ALL.
>
> As I said in the earlier post, the only GO person who could stand as
> godparent that we know in this country is the child's grandmother.
This
> request is also being refused.
>
> If people in the NG think that any of these points are permissable, I
> would be glad to hear from you BUT I am nervous about going to the
> bishop for a ruling and having this put upon the priest as this does
not
> make for a good relationship in the future....
>
Polichinello
jsh...@my-deja.com wrote:
If I'm intruding, feel free to ignore this Mr. Shutt.
Exactly how often do you attend Orthodox services? I ask because it
seems odd that you can't find another Orthodox to serve as Godparent.
I'm certainly no shining example of perfect church attendance, but even
with my spotty record, I can rattle off ten names for such a candidate,
and 30 more with some thought.
I think this may be the problem. With a GO Godparent, not only is the
child part of the community, but so is the family. That you can't think
of someone within your parish to stand as a Godparent means you aren't
acting as part of the community there, and most likely your child will
not be either and her prospects of remaining Orthodox will be quite
slim.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
--
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