Leaving ROCOR in Droves!!!!!!!
nick cobb
I just heard that the Priest, Deacon, reader and choir director over at
All Saints of Russia church (the Denver ROCOR parish) have all left and
intend to join the
"True Orthodox Church of Greece". My understanding is that these are
the Matthewites;
those people who think we're all heretics except them!! In his farewell
letter, Fr. Steven said that he now believed that the ROCOR
bishops had become ecumenist heretics by failing to break communion with
the Serbian
Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate. How can people fall for
this sectarian
claptrap is beyond me...
Alexander Arnakis
First of all, it sounds like ROCOR would be glad to be rid of them!
What is the "True Orthodox Church of Greece"? An Old-Calendarist
splinter group?
Jesh
Church Abroad in America - RCAA - since it is no longer really Russian)
is indeed imploding.
In a "pathology of conversion" which I read about on here, over-zealous
American converts, at first attracted to the rigorousness of RCAA,
eventually become disenchanted when their current "church" no longer
appears to be the masochistic being that these "seekers" crave. This
church in Denver has long preyed on canonical Orthodox churches in the
area, re-baptizing all they could lure into their lair of
over-zealousness. Now the leaders are moving on, to a more zealous
group, the True Orthodox Church of Greece, which had been given birth by
RCAA but which eventually found the RCAA not masochistic enough, so they
struck out on their own, as so many groups given life by RCAA chose to
do - look at HTM Brookline, Platina, Blanco, this "True Orthodox Church
of Greece" and even the St. Markella Greek group in Astoria, spawned by
ROCOR - then it turned on ROCOR/RCAA. It appears that the RCAA's
vicious, anti-canonical Orthodox actions of the past are beginning to
mount up, to turn against them. Even the insignificant readers Alban
Mosher and Cosntantine Wright have been strangely quiet since they heard
their last canonical co-celebrant, the CHurch of Serbia, had branded
RCAA as "anti-canonical." Even they will be disenchanted in their
current (or perhaps past) ecclesiastical "home."
Soon, what is good in RCAA will joyfully re-unite themselves with the
mother church, the Church of Russia. period. And an unsavory 40 years of
church history of ROCOR/RCAA in America will be..... history.
Jesh
In article <399C7947...@cris.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Gee, are they going to become flagellant groups whipping themselves
into a frenzy?
In article <8nig07$om0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
nick cobb
clergy trying to enter canonical Orthodox dioceses, accepting these people
carte blanche is a SERIOUS mistake.
Most of these clergy have little to no Orthodox theological education. Most
have held fast to the belief that only THEY are Orthodox and all other
Orthodox have fallen into heresy. They have refused other Orthodox
Christians to commune and have insisted on re-baptizing other Orthodox
Christians. This list goes on!
SCOBA needs to address these issues. Now, when the OCA and GOA need clergy,
these haters of SCOBA should not be treated as long, lost Orthodox clergy,
but as the schismatic, heretical impostors they are!
To accept ROCOR clergy by anything less than serious repentance, and
possibly chrismation and reordination is a travesty!
evagr...@my-deja.com
Would this repentance include theological education and where would
that education be given?
I've noticed that this is an ongoing crisis , ( theological education).
How many seminaries are there in the U.S. recognized by SCOBA?
( Is it only St. Vladimir's and Holy Cross?)
Isn't it about time te establish others?
In article <399DCA7F...@cris.com>,
nick cobb
very serious. Opening up more and more seminaries isn't the answer, but
seriously supporting the ones we have.
Jesh
pedestals of sanctity, whence they arose by reading one or two books of
"Monastic Letters of Direction," (like one B.T.,) as preparation for the
clergy, and set foot in the likes of St. Valdimir's, or St. Tikhon's, or
Holy Cross, or St. Sophia's, or Christ the Savior, or St. Andrew's, or
even the new Greek Seminary in Toronto?
After condemning us out of hand for so many years, after refusing
communion to so many of our brethren, after playing the "holier than
thou and my beard is longer than yours" for so many years, do you
honestly think the average RCAA clergy's pride would allow them to come
over to the canonical side?
It is like the MP clergy at the time of the OCA autocephaly; between
canonical irregularities and the pride of some of the MP clergy who had
for so many years thrown stones at the Metropolia clergy, it was
necessary for the agreements to allow for a separate organization to
shelter those "problem" priests, but with encouragement from Moscow to
join the OCA written into those agreements (as was done.) The RCAA will
have to also write into any agreement returning them to canonical
Orthodoxy some form to allow for the continued existence in some way,
those "problem" clergy. And that problem most often boils down to PRIDE.
Jesh
In article <399DD6B3...@cris.com>,
nick cobb <ni...@cris.com> wrote:
> There are: St. Vladimir's, Holy Cross, St. Tikhon's and the others
aren't
> very serious. Opening up more and more seminaries isn't the answer,
but
> seriously supporting the ones we have.
>
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Mr. Cobb,
> >
> > Would this repentance include theological education and where would
> > that education be given?
> >
> > I've noticed that this is an ongoing crisis , ( theological
education).
> >
> > How many seminaries are there in the U.S. recognized by SCOBA?
> >
> > ( Is it only St. Vladimir's and Holy Cross?)
> >
> > Isn't it about time te establish others?
Rusnak2938
official Church has acknowledged the sainthood of the Tsar and the other new
martyrs, perhaps the time is now (or very soon, say, in two years) for the
MP/ROCOR split to end.
ann_y...@hotmail.com
embrace us as brothers (and sisters), as the Pascha hymn says.
Now, that will be the biggest challenge!
Ann Yarrow
Pennsylvania
In article <20000818235511...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
james
all may be one again and that the division which need not exist will end.
<ann_y...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8nmcpr$2c5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Perhaps the end will come very soon and then those who hated us will
> embrace us as brothers (and sisters), as the Pascha hymn says.
>
> Now, that will be the biggest challenge!
>
> Ann Yarrow
> Pennsylvania
>
> In article <20000818235511...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
> rusna...@aol.comNOSPAM (Rusnak2938) wrote:
LADAIntnet
>embrace us as brothers (and sisters), as the Pascha hymn says.
>
>Now, that will be the biggest challenge!
>
>Ann Yarrow
>Pennsylvania
>
Dear Ann:
I go to an MP church and I don't know anybody (neither herre in the States, nor
in Moscow) who hates ROCOR. As a matter of fact, everybody I know loves and
respects you dearly. We admire your strength of convictions and unwillingness
to yield to the temptations of the modern world.
I know a lot of people who pray for reunification with ROCOR and would embrace
you with open arms.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of politics involved in this matter, but I hope
that whatever's dividing us now will be resolved in the nearest future.
With love in Christ,
Sinner Ioann Z.
Tamster
> you all may be one again and that the division which need not exist will end.
DING-DING-DING!!
I'm the first one to catch it!!! Yippee!
(What's the prize, again??)
There can be no argument here: admit it! "YOU ALL MAY BE ONE AGAIN . . ."!
Note: it's not "WE ALL" -- it's "YOU ALL."
Please, donate the prize to charity (preferably in the form a liturgical
transcript for James, since he so rarely -- poor thing! -- gets a chance to
attend liturgy [he is a paranoid, self-proclaimed outcast from any Orthodox
Church he sets foot in]).
james
I said you because I am not a member of the Russian Church (yet that is).
Thus I was simply hoping that the ROCOR and the MP and the OCA would somehow
come to peace with one another and be one.
Now then, Dear... run along and play in the traffic. Try not to get grass
stains on your knees, Dear. :-)
j
"Tamster" <tams...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B5C443F3.2787%tams...@hotmail.com...
Tamster
James. You said you had killfiled me (how many times now?). Tsk, tsk. How
about taking that big first baby-step: try KEEPING your promises. It really
WILL help to make a man out of you . . . eventually.
james shared:
james
for your bath and beddie.
james
"Tamster" <tams...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B5C4A60F.27F5%tams...@hotmail.com...
james
though it were my own.
your guy
"Linda" <wla...@nospampacifier.com> wrote in message
news:399f2d89....@news.pacifier.com...
> I am one month away from my baptism into the Orthodox church. I
> absolutely refused to be baptized into my ex-husband's church, the
> Christian Church. His family was "preachy" and "holier than thou"
> which I really had a problem with. As it ended up, my ex had major,
> major addiction issues which began with his upbringing in this very
> strong, religious family. My own parents did not attend church. So
> religion has not been a part of my life and I ran away from anything
> to do with religion.
>
> Now, I have met and fallen in love with the most wonderful man who is
> extremely passionate about his faith, Orthodoxy. He has explain the
> faith to me, has taken me to church (we HAVE been welcomed to attend
> the church again which is nearest to us, after OUR spiritual father
> gives us the go ahead to do so.) (aren't you suppose to follow the
> advice of your spiritual father?) Anyway, I am no longer afraid of
> religion and I am looking forward to my baptism.
>
> Or am I? If being Orthodox means being like Tamster....I think I
> don't want to be Orthodox. If she is a representative of what the
> people are like....count me out! I just can't be cruel to people. It
> just isn't in me.
>
> The people we met at church were extremely nice, as was the priest. I
> feel really fortunate that the priest who will baptize me offered to
> do so on his own, via email...the only way we have ever communicated
> since he lives across the continent from me. He made this offer
> because of my fiance'. How does he know my fiance'? Only through his
> posts to an Orthodox forum. Father clearly sees the strong faith in
> him.
>
> Father has written to me, and not once did he present himself in the
> same manner as Tamster does. This behavior reminds me of a junior
> high girl who is trying to get the boy to like her by constantly
> bugging and pestering him. So please, someone, will you reassure me
> that Tamster's behavior is not a common trait amongst Orthodox people.
>
>
> Linda
Tamster
your own reasons, so do I not wish to associate with you (primarily because
you are an illiterate).
Linda shared:
Tamster
poster.
Alexander Arnakis shared:
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:37:29 GMT, wla...@nospampacifier.com (Linda)
> wrote:
>
>> So please, someone, will you reassure me
>> that Tamster's behavior is not a common trait amongst Orthodox people.
>>
> "Tamster" never ceases to astound me with the shallowness and
> pettiness of her postings. She's not typical at all.
>
james
all posters that you are in need of some help. Please, see your priest,
Tammy. He can help you. Lin and I will pray for you this evening. Really, I
can think of many insulting things to say to you after you have hurt both me
and my fiance, but what good would that do? I think you need help. Please,
Lord have mercy and help this handmaiden of Thine. I don't know her name nor
do I know her circumstances but You see her pain and I ask you to give her
peace. Amen.
james
"Tamster" <tams...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B5C4B3C4.2808%tams...@hotmail.com...
> > bugging and pestering him. So please, someone, will you reassure me
> > that Tamster's behavior is not a common trait amongst Orthodox people.
> >
> >
holym...@mail.ru
haha!
Fr. Kalashnikov of Kursk
In article <8nkjc5$6cq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> How many seminaries are there in the U.S. recognized by SCOBA?
>
> ( Is it only St. Vladimir's and Holy Cross?)
>
> Isn't it about time te establish others?
>
Linda
Alexander Arnakis
wrote:
> So please, someone, will you reassure me
>that Tamster's behavior is not a common trait amongst Orthodox people.
>
T254
>poster.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Arnakis is a Greekadox rather than an
Orthodox. He see's the Church as nothing more than an ethnic social club whose
primary purpose is to uphold Hellenism and lobby for Greek causes in
Washington.
robert G Tallick
Daniel Kisliakov
There are many instances when people from both sides embrace each other with love.
Though communion might be broken, this does not mean that we hate each other, we
disagree.
serap...@my-deja.com
ladai...@aol.common (LADAIntnet) wrote:
> >Perhaps the end will come very soon and then those who hated us will
> >embrace us as brothers (and sisters), as the Pascha hymn says.
> >
> >Now, that will be the biggest challenge!
> >
> >Ann Yarrow
> >Pennsylvania
> >
>
> Dear Ann:
>
> I go to an MP church and I don't know anybody (neither herre in the
States, nor
> in Moscow) who hates ROCOR.
Ioann, if you think that nobody hates ROCOR, then you haven't been
reading this thread very closely.
There seem to be several people on this board who have a hobby of ROCOR-
bashing, they do it with absolute glee!
As a matter of fact, everybody I know loves and
> respects you dearly. We admire your strength of convictions and
unwillingness
> to yield to the temptations of the modern world.
>
> I know a lot of people who pray for reunification with ROCOR and
would embrace
> you with open arms.
>
> Unfortunately, there's a lot of politics involved in this matter, but
I hope
> that whatever's dividing us now will be resolved in the nearest
future.
>
> With love in Christ,
>
> Sinner Ioann Z.
>
Rusnak2938
come to peace with one another and be one.
The OCA and the MP really are one, as the former is the canonical creation of
the latter. (I understand that in SCOBA the MP exarchate is represented by the
OCA.) That leaves ROCOR vs. the MP/OCA, about which I've already written.
Prediction: when Metropolitan Vitaly, the present first hierarch of ROCOR,
dies, part of ROCOR, hierarchy and laity (Russians mostly), will reconcile with
the MP. (I can see older ROCOR churches under the MP exarchate in the US, as
this body retains a more Russian character than the OCA, and is old-calendar as
well.) ROCOR will still exist, only smaller, driven perhaps by enthusiastic
'super-Orthodox' converts. Perhaps in time it will merge with an old-calendar
Greek or other like-minded group of similar (zealous convert) makeup.
There is a lot of truth and holiness in ROCOR (un-liberal), for which everybody
should rejoice, but the time is coming to end the split in the Russian Church.
Alexander Arnakis
>["Tamster" wrote]:
>>P.S. Alexander Arnakis is, however, quite "typical" of the average Orthodox
>>poster.
>
>Nothing could be further from the truth. Arnakis is a Greekadox rather than an
>Orthodox. He sees the Church as nothing more than an ethnic social club whose
>primary purpose is to uphold Hellenism and lobby for Greek causes in
>Washington.
You're right, but "Tamster" made her remark sarcastically, as if to
imply that she's more "typical" of the average Orthodox poster than I
am.
Her petty sarcasm is one of the things I dislike about her.
Phil (Silouan) Thompson
> at All Saints of Russia church (the Denver ROCOR parish) have
> My understanding is that these are the Matthewites; those people
> who think we're all heretics except them!! In his farewell letter,
> Fr. Steven said that he now believed that the ROCOR bishops
> had become ecumenist heretics by failing to break communion with
> the Serbian Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
Fr Steven and exactly one other family left All Saints to start a rival
parish. For what it's worth, Fr Alexei strongly disagrees with Fr Steven's
position, and is staying put.
Silouan
John Peters
LADAIntnet wrote in message
<20000819131632...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>I know a lot of people who pray for reunification with ROCOR and would
embrace
>you with open arms.
>
>Unfortunately, there's a lot of politics involved in this matter, but I
hope
>that whatever's dividing us now will be resolved in the nearest future.
Ioann - I share your sentiments. There was a very interesting piece on NPR
on the new Cathedral in Moscow yesterday. God bless -
John
John Peters
NPR piece is at:
http://news.npr.org/newsNow.jhtml?groupNews=3&audioNews=58
click on "Russian church", you'll need Real player (a download program).
John
Topper.H
all others heretics, read ecumenists, is extremely unsettling.
How is life, Mr. Cobb? I will be attending the local ROCOR parrish in
droves here in the Live Music/Blues Capital of the World. Good to see you
around in a strange way.
Troyen.
Disregard my email if there is an address.
If anyone would like to drop a line I am at Troy...@hotmail.com .
"nick cobb" <ni...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:399C7947...@cris.com...
> From XXXXXXXXXX:
>
> I just heard that the Priest, Deacon, reader and choir director over at
> All Saints of Russia church (the Denver ROCOR parish) have all left and
> intend to join the
> "True Orthodox Church of Greece". My understanding is that these are
> the Matthewites;
> those people who think we're all heretics except them!! In his farewell
> letter, Fr. Steven said that he now believed that the ROCOR
> bishops had become ecumenist heretics by failing to break communion with
> the Serbian
> Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate. How can people fall for
> this sectarian
> claptrap is beyond me...
>
Steve
> Fr Steven and exactly one other family left All Saints to
> start a rival parish. For what it's worth, Fr Alexei
> strongly disagrees with Fr Steven's position, and is staying
> put.
The only way I can see referring to this as "in droves"
is if Fr. Steven *drove* the other family to the new
church in his sedan!!
/Steve
troy...@hotmail.com
the less inflamatory post that started the thread.
Do two wrongs make a right? You want to Rechrismate Priests who have
served Holy Communion? Come on, your own diatribe contains serious
logical errors. You bemoan the fact that ROCOR Priests have not
communed non-ROCOR parisoners, but then want the Priests to be
Chrismated like some new convert? Why are people going to recieve
Communion in ROCOR parishes if the Priests are of little education and
in need of Chrismation from the Nick Cobb proclaimed Cannonical
Churches? Anyway, keep dreaming. The Synod is changing and hopefully
for the better. Give it some time.
Troyen.
troy...@hotmail.com
Airplanes.
Insulting one another without regard for anything, but your own pride.
You are all pretty much guilty and you know it. If you are really
interested in being kind to one another then why not start here. Is
turning the other cheek part of our dogma or not? Enough, if ya'll
were smart you could dredge up some of the word wars I have had, but
does that make me correct and right?
When every word is held up for accountablilty by Christ do you think
that he will use Netscape or Internet Explorer? Or maybe, just maybe,
Christ
will know every word that we ever typed without having to choose.
Be nice to each other and try to ignore mean things.
I don't call Nick nicobb anymore, or something like that. I also
actually complimented him on the start of this thread. Anyway, have a
nice day. 100 degrees soon it will be here,
Galina Schneider
Nice to see you , boy, how y'all are????
Galina
Jesh
career opportunities. Joining a monastery in West Virginia would also
help. If he switched "churches" now he would have to start all over
again to become a bishop in a "spin-off" church from the RCAA.
Jesh
In article <sq18a9o...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Phil \(Silouan\) Thompson" <him...@philthompson.net> wrote:
> > I just heard that the Priest, Deacon, reader and choir director over
> > at All Saints of Russia church (the Denver ROCOR parish) have
> > all left and intend to join the "True Orthodox Church of Greece".
> > My understanding is that these are the Matthewites; those people
> > who think we're all heretics except them!! In his farewell letter,
> > Fr. Steven said that he now believed that the ROCOR bishops
> > had become ecumenist heretics by failing to break communion with
> > the Serbian Church and with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
>
> Fr Steven and exactly one other family left All Saints to start a
rival
> parish. For what it's worth, Fr Alexei strongly disagrees with Fr
Steven's
> position, and is staying put.
> Silouan
nick cobb
Phil (Silouan) Thompson
> If Fr. Alexey is celibate, staying put greatly enhances his
> future career opportunities. Joining a monastery in West
> Virginia would also help. If he switched "churches" now
> he would have to start all over again to become a bishop
> in a "spin-off" church from the RCAA.
Fr Alexei a bishop? Much as I'd love to have him for my bishop some day, I
wouldn't bet money on it.
What's in West Virginia? His health wouldn't permit him to travel there
anyway. He just faithfully keeps up the daily services at the little Russian
parish in Denver.
He's such a gentle and wise man - quite a blessing.
Silouan
Rachael K.
Matushka Ann Lardas
there, I'd been told. But to have that spun into some sort of political power
grab on Fr. A's part is just as ridiculous as, as.... as calling the departure
of two families in one parish "droves."
People leave ROCOR. It happens all the time. Besides the outright nuts and
those fleeing ecclesiastical court, we lose people to the right because they
want to be part of the only Orthodox left in the world and we lose people to
the left because they get impatient with us for not dissolving before it's time
to dissolve. It's sad, it's a reality, it's hardly news and in now way does it
imply the beginning of the end, or the middle of the end, or the advent of the
end. It's just what happens.
I know both the Fr. Stephens who've recently left us (one for Moscow, the other
for the Matthewites), and I'm sorry to see both go, and am especially sorry for
their families.
But not only will the center hold, it will hold better for not being jostled
this way and that.
May God enlighten and heal those who've felt compelled to leave us, and may He
forgive those who use these sad occasions to make some sort of political hay.
(Would that "church politics" were an oxymoron, and that "Orthodox unity" were
not.)
Not meaning to go completely off topic, has anyone read the last in the series
of Brother Cadfael mysteries? Sometimes I wonder if it will be like that when
we all finally try to reconcile.....
Matushka Ann Lardas
(mat...@aol.com)
Bryan J. Maloney
mat...@aol.combyespam (Matushka Ann Lardas) wrote:
> those fleeing ecclesiastical court, we lose people to the right because they
> want to be part of the only Orthodox left in the world and we lose people to
> the left because they get impatient with us for not dissolving before it's
The right and the left???????
Since when is Orthodoxy to be categorized by secular political tools?
--
For those in the know, potrzebie is truly necessary.
troy...@my-deja.com
How are you? Nice to hear from you also. Did you not get married or
some such thing? I can't remember everything. Indeed, it is good to
hear from you though.
Troyen
John Peters
Matushka Ann Lardas wrote in message
<20000822162922...@ng-ca1.aol.com>...
>People leave ROCOR. It happens all the time...
People also join ROCOR, and it happens all the time also.
I don't know about you all but my parish is growing and hardly anybody cares
about the issues which people talk about in this forum.
Nice to see Matushka and Troy here, bless you both -
John
Rachael K.
<troy...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Hi Rachael,
>
> How are you? Nice to hear from you also. Did you not get married or
> some such thing? I can't remember everything. Indeed, it is good to
> hear from you though.
Not married yet---I've got less than two months, though (sent off the
last of the invitations today). On some days, I think I'd rather learn to
jump out of planes! ;-)
BTW, isn't it amazing how *little* this newsgroup changes? <insert gales
of laughter>
~~Rachael
Catherine Hampton
:> rival parish. For what it's worth, Fr Alexei strongly disagrees with
:> Fr Steven's position, and is staying put.
: No no no! Facts are *not* allowed into this newsgroup! We had a
: perfectly good set of rumors to monger, and you go spoiling it all!
I know -- don't you just hate spoilsports who ruin a good argument
with the facts?
;>
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
====================================================================
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Kovalevo Children's Home * <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.iconwall.org/orthodox/>
St. Herman of Alaska * <http://www.stherman.sunnyvale.ca.us/>
Jas1382
Tomorrow these folks from Denver will be received at the church I will be at,
and it is not "The True Orthodox Church of Greece" nor the Matthewites. I am
thankful to the Lord that it is His genuine church though. You all should
follow the good example of these people and depart the modern ecumenism of
ROCA, OCA, GOAA and the other groups within what is known as "World Orthodoxy"
- it would be the best thing you ever did. Genuine Orthodoxy is the only truly
good thing in the whole world, please come and see for yourself.
John Symeon
james
are self-righteously sitting in judgment upon the Church and saying that
only YOU have found the TRUE Church? Gotcha! And how did you manage all by
yourself to stumble upon the REAL honest-to-goodness' Church? Huh? You can
tell us... we won't give your secret away. I've a hunch.. was it two tall
men with briefcases... who came up your driveway and introduced you to the
REAL Church? LOL... priceless.
Jas1382 <jas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000826195521...@ng-md1.aol.com...
Steve
> Tomorrow these folks from Denver will be received at the church I will be at,
> and it is not "The True Orthodox Church of Greece" nor the Matthewites.
Thanks for the partial clarification, John. Now that
we know two churches these folks won't be at, could you
tell us where they will be??
Thanks, /Steve
Andrew Kisliakov
What churches do you see as being genuinely Orthodox?
Jas1382 wrote:
>
> It seems you all would not know real facts if they hit you in the face.
> Tomorrow these folks from Denver will be received at the church I will be at,
Andrew Kisliakov
my news server.
Anyway, having met Fr. Alexey Young when he visited Australia in 1998,
I'm wondering what has become of him. At the time he was serving at the
Denver parish - is he still there? What is his status?
Rusnak2938
Denver church.
Gerard Serafin
Rusnak2938 wrote:
> As far as I know, Fr Alexey is a priest in good standing in ROCOR serving the
> Denver church.
That's my understanding too.
I wonder, if he caught any glimpses of the recent World Youth Day
celebrations in Rome, with two million young people gathered with the
Pope, would he still say these words he wrote a few years ago:
"Meanwhile, Pope John Paul II must do something; he must somehow shore
up his Church, his papacy. He is now turning in the direction of the
East and the ancient, historic Patriarchates of Orthodoxy. He is looking
for a blood transfusion for his dying Church."
I wonder if Fr Alexei realizes that there were more young people
gathered in Rome than there are members of his entire jurisdiction
throughout the whole world--by far. And probably more young
people--between 18 and 35--than were in Orthodox Churches throughout the
entire world on the same Sunday of the great closing Mass in Rome...
I wonder what he'd say TODAY?
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
"There is only one sadness: not to be a saint" (Leon Bloy)
Phil (Silouan) Thompson
> Rusnak2938 wrote:
> > As far as I know, Fr Alexey is a priest in good standing in ROCOR
> > serving the Denver church.
> I wonder, if he caught any glimpses of the recent World Youth Day
> celebrations in Rome, with two million young people gathered with the
> Pope, would he still say these words he wrote a few years ago...
He probably didn't. I doubt his monastic lifestyle includes a lot of TV
time. I do know that I've never heard anything about this papal event from
anybody but you, Gerard.
> I wonder what he'd say TODAY?
I suppose he'd say the words of the same Liturgy and offices he says every
Sunday. Because, unlike you, he's remained faithful to the Church. You could
still return to the Church, too, you know.
Silouan
Gerard Serafin
"Phil (Silouan) Thompson" wrote:
> "Gerard Serafin"--
> > > As far as I know, Fr Alexey is a priest in good standing in ROCOR
> > > serving the Denver church.
> > I wonder, if he caught any glimpses of the recent World Youth Day
> > celebrations in Rome, with two million young people gathered with the
> > Pope, would he still say these words he wrote a few years ago...
> He probably didn't. I doubt his monastic lifestyle includes a lot of TV
> time. I do know that I've never heard anything about this papal event from
> anybody but you, Gerard.
I don't know much about Fr Alexei's monastic life-style; I know he seems
to travel a good bit (as do many monks!). He seemed to be aware of
things in his book "The Rush to Embrace" in which he wrote the words
about "the Pope and his dying Church." So I can only presume he
considers it important to keep a watch and check his words with reality.
If he does keep up, then there's a good likelihood he caught some
glimpses of the stunning celebrations in Rome with the Pope and two
million young people.
I can understand that even you didn't hear much of it (only from
me--which makes me grateful I said something about it on this newsgroup,
since even the Wall Street Journal called it a most signfiicant event,
full of meaning).
> > I wonder what he'd say TODAY?
> I suppose he'd say the words of the same Liturgy and offices he says every
> Sunday. Because, unlike you, he's remained faithful to the Church.
Even though he has switched jurisdictions at least once...maybe even
more?
But would he still say what he said then: that the Catholic Church is
dying?
Of course, many have predicted this over the centuries. They're dead
now. The Church lives. And today she shows herself to be a youthful
Church as well.
Of course, all is not well. Of course, there are problems. So it has
always been.
But, O my God, what glorious signs of hope there are as well!
> You could
> still return to the Church, too, you know.
How can I return since I am home? And, believe me, there is no hearth
so warm and welcoming, so faithful and yet open, so interesting and
exciting, so full of treasures old and new, so loving and lovely....and,
pace Fr Alexei, so ALIVE!
--
Gerard Serafin
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Praise of Glory BookCenter:
http://praiseofglory.com/books.htm
Monastic Book&CD Center:
http://saintbenedict.org/monasticbooks.htm
Harry Coin
> I wonder if Fr Alexei realizes that there were more young people
> gathered in Rome than there are members of his entire jurisdiction
> throughout the whole world--by far.
I wonder if Gerard realizes that there were more young people not gathered in Rome
than were there? I doubt it.
T254
>in Rome
>than were there? I doubt it.
Gerard is just 'a goin fishin' and is troll baiting again. Life must be at a
low point for him.
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
Harry Coin wrote:
> > I wonder if Fr Alexei realizes that there were more young people
> > gathered in Rome than there are members of his entire jurisdiction
> > throughout the whole world--by far.
> I wonder if Gerard realizes that there were more young people not gathered in Rome
> than were there? I doubt it.
Of course I know this.
Doesn't change my comment one bit: there were more young people gathered
in Rome that Sunday, *by far*, than there are members of Fr Alexei's
jurisdiction.
Do you disagree with that observation?
--
Gerard Serafin
Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
A Catholic Page for Lovers:
http://praiseofglory.com
Jas1382
but untruths. While I was at it I thought I would encourage others to follow
the good example of those in Denver and depart anything that denies Christ,
like the modern ecumenical influences found in World Orthodox groups. I can
understand how most of you might be confused with regard to the truth,
considering the sources you listen to here. Half truth is no truth. Truth is
not confusing at all, it is only the multitude of departures from truth that
causes all the confusion. By definition "Orthodox" is supposed to mean correct
faith/worship, distinguishing itself from error. There is One Lord, One Church,
One Faith, One Baptism and One Truth. Those who accept other churches, other
faiths, other baptisms and other truths are against Christ. Several in Denver
found that faith matters, that matters of faith are totally important, so they
have joined the One Faithful Church. There is nothing wrong with the faith we
hold to, there is no confusion here, none of the Gospel has been changed. No
doubt many at the time of Christ would have labeled Him a leader of a cult, of
starting a sect, it was those that believed like that who denied the Truth.
Those who denied Him no doubt labeled His followers as self-righteous. I do not
mind being in such good company. No, we are not like those who have only their
own opinions and/or those of demons. We hold to the faith which was once for
all delivered to the saints. We are unlike those who embrace the pope and think
that there are many different churches in Christ. The faith we hold to is that
same faith which God has always taught mankind. We are not alone in faith for
this is what God has provided for all to live in. By God's grace He guided me
for 12 (seemingly long) years to His One Faithful Church. Along the way I did
see impostors in black suits and almost every other manner of dress or lack
there of. Impostors, many who claim to be Orthodox, hide the truth, changed it
in subtle ways and are able to deceive most people. I thankfully have the
church of the Dormition in Buena Vista to attend services at. There is nothing
wrong the faith they hold to. Do to the great apostasy in these times there are
not many parishes, but the Church is growing in the midst of the storm. There
are faithful over much America and the world. I know of faithful in many, many
other countries. I am with the synod of the GOC under Metropolitan Kallinikos
of Lamia. We do not think we are the only ones faithful to Christ. I think that
there are other right believing bishops in the world still besides ours. Those
right believing bishops who are not currently part of our synod are kept away
due to political or personal reasons, but not matters of faith. Hopefully those
all around the world who are in correct faith will become closer, but we do
have to admit that the last hundred years have been hard on the Church. I will
make it easy on you and let you know that ecumenism is the heresy which has
brought down World Orthodoxy. The hierarch's of World Orthodoxy have departed
from Christ in this heresy. You will not find any faithful bishops in communion
with the Ecumenical Patriarch. To say that these heretics have grace, as the
ROCOR does, is also denying Christ with them. To give communion to ecumenists
as other traditional old calendarists do is also entering into this same
apostasy. It is not acceptable for those against ecumenism to remain in
communion with heretics. It is the responsibility of each individual, clergy or
laity, to maintain correct faith, alone if need be, and to make any sacrifice
possible to join with other canonical clergy as soon as they can. I hope this
does clarify things a little more, I hope you all will look into the real truth
yourself.
evagr...@my-deja.com
So.........when's the last true Orthodox gonna pop up?
When he/she does, guess it'e the end of the world, right?
In article <20000828132218...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
Atsaves
Don't you just love the sounds of Gerard beating a dead horse of an argument he
tried to start?
Thwack! Thwack! Thwack! Thwack!
Now if he would just toss out a live one for debate once in a while . . . .
.
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
<< Subject: Re: Leaving ROCOR in Droves!!!!!!!
From: Gerard Serafin jer...@home.com
Date: Mon, Aug 28, 2000 10:42 AM
Message-id: <39AA899E...@home.com>
Silouan
> Thwack! Thwack! Thwack! Thwack!
Okay, I admit, I tried to engage Gerard in conversation. Dunno what I was
thinking.
Every time I use a different computer I lose my killfiles and sometimes I
delude myself into thinking a substantive conversation could occur.
Disengaging...
Silouan
T254
>thinking.
He's lonely. Things have been quite slow and boring on CINEAST. So it's time
to try and ruffle the Orthodox feathers again.
robert G Tallick
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote,
replying to Phil's:
> >Okay, I admit, I tried to engage Gerard in conversation. Dunno what I was
> >thinking.
About what? Must have missed the invitation somewhere. That's to
Phil/Silouan.
> He's lonely. Things have been quite slow and boring on CINEAST. So it's time
> to try and ruffle the Orthodox feathers again.
CINEAST has had quite a bit of traffic today. Maybe you haven't read
your mail today yet?
Moi?
Try to ruffle Orthodox feathers again?
Moi?
Not lonely either. In fact, expecting company any minute.
Expecting a visit from an Orthodox priest who wants to watch, on my
downloaded video, parts of Pope's meeting with the two million young
people at the Vigil and to watch parts of the Dedication of Christ the
Savior in Moscow as well...he can help me since he can translate the
Russian.
Salien...@msu.edu
Baptism, One Faith, One Truth residing in ROCOR, while not formally
denying "grace" in the excommunicated churches, and now even HIS moral
and canonical authority is trumped by failure to deny grace. And
interestingly, you even excoriate the faith of each and every bishop
in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch -- Reader Constantine never
did that. And up until the business of the "black suit imposters," I
have no problem with anything presented.
Perhaps, jas1382, you can appreciate my reluctance to accept your
presentation out of hand, given the apparent truth presented here
previously -- notably by the polemicists of ROCOR. My immediate
question is to ask clarification as to the definition of the
"ecumenism" of which you speak; and who are the "ecumenists" communed
by the "other traditional old calendarists"?
On 28 Aug 2000 17:22:18 GMT, jas...@aol.com (Jas1382) wrote:
>My only point was to show that many so called facts on the thread are not facts
>but untruths. While I was at it I thought I would encourage others to follow
>the good example of those in Denver and depart anything that denies Christ,
>like the modern ecumenical influences found in World Orthodox groups. I can
>understand how most of you might be confused with regard to the truth,
>considering the sources you listen to here. Half truth is no truth. Truth is
>not confusing at all, it is only the multitude of departures from truth that
>causes all the confusion. By definition "Orthodox" is supposed to mean correct
>faith/worship, distinguishing itself from error. There is One Lord, One Church,
>One Faith, One Baptism and One Truth. Those who accept other churches, other
>faiths, other baptisms and other truths are against Christ. Several in Denver
>found that faith matters, that matters of faith are totally important, so they
>have joined the One Faithful Church. There is nothing wrong with the faith we
>hold to, there is no confusion here, none of the Gospel has been changed. No
>doubt many at the time of Christ would have labeled Him a leader of a cult, of
>starting a sect, it was those that believed like that who denied the Truth.
>Those who denied Him no doubt labeled His followers as self-righteous. I do not
Atsaves
Gerard! Stop it already! That horse be dead a long time ago!
Thwack! Thwack! Thwack! Thwack!
Regards,
Louis Geo. Atsaves
evagr...@my-deja.com
He can't. He has the dread disease of "papal maximalism" which is a
mental disorder.
It's a sensory and emotional disorder confusing the Pope with with some
type of Unwavering Truth, the Rock of Peter, the Anchor of Stability
and so forth.
Usually, one sees the disease among Vatican residents and members of
the Blue Legion and other fringe groups within the RC.
Bishop Lefebre suffered from it until it burst and then he suddenly saw
himself as the Rock, the Anchor etc; Now he has his own church.
In article <20000828184219...@ng-fk1.aol.com>,
T254
>downloaded video, parts of Pope's meeting with the two million young
>people at the Vigil and to watch parts of the Dedication of Christ the
>Savior in Moscow as well...he can help me since he can translate the
>Russian.
My, my, my Father Gerard. I must say that you do go to such extremes at times
to get a rise out of us. But in this case I perfectly understand. For when I
was about seven or eight I had an imaginery friend too. His name was TZOR and
he was an alien. He stayed around for a few years until I discovered girls and
then he mysteriously dissapeared. Guess he must have gotten jealous and
returned to his home planet or something.
Is this the same Orthodox priest that is going to get you a menial job at one
of the Moscow Churches you mentioned?
robert G Tallick
G Schneider
Silouan wrote:
>
> "Atsaves" wrote:
> > Thwack! Thwack! Thwack! Thwack!
>
> Okay, I admit, I tried to engage Gerard in conversation. Dunno what I was
> thinking.
>
> Every time I use a different computer I lose my killfiles and sometimes I
> delude myself into thinking a substantive conversation could occur.
>
> Disengaging...
>
> Silouan
Yep, just had one with Michel. Same deal, unkillfiled everyone.
Peter E. Matthaei
1) Although "ecumenism" (i.e. those antics by some Hierarchs that do not
witness to the Truth of Orthodoxy, but adds to the general world-wide
religious confusion) is most certainly condemned by countless decisions
of previous Councils and Synods of the Orthodox Church (from earliest
times), I do not think one can say that all hierarchs in the "mainline"
Orthodox Churches are guilty of these offences. (Even though a lot of
statements, trends and actions coming from the State Church of Greece,
for example, are deeply disturbing to me, there are certainly also State
Church Hierarchs like the Metropolitans Ierotheos of Nafpaktos and
Augoustinos of Florina, who hold Patristic views of the Orthodox Church
and promote a refreshingly authentic Orthodox ethos. I personally do
not want to, nor could I, condemn these worthy Bishops!). The problem
is that many local Churches are INTERNALLY divided (or confused) as to
what ecumenism is, or should be. There are still a lot of Orthodox
(even Hierarchs) who believe that Orthodox participation in the World
Council of Churches is still based on the principles expounded by Father
Georges Florovsky (who certainly held that communion in prayer and
Eucharist is impossible when there is no unity in faith). Until such
time as the Orthodox Church decides in a serious manner to maintain our
Orthodox Tradition and our Orthodox Praxis, or if "mainline" Orthodox
Churches decide to reject OFFICIALY the Orthodox teachings on the Church
(and Grace, etc.), one cannot say that all Orthodox (clergy, laity) in
communion with Constantinople are without Grace!
2) The ROCA (and the Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili)
are often accused by some "extremist" Old Calendarist groups that they
are inconsistent with their own position of not maintaining Eucharistic
communion with "ecumenist" jurisdictions. (This is especially true of
the ROCA's good relations with the Serbian Church, notwithstanding some
postings to this newsgroup that tried hard to persuade us that this is
not the case). I think it is somewhat impossible to be WHOLLY
consistent (from a legalistic point of view). If we try to legally
consistent, what happens to basic Christian love, Christian charity,
Christian reconciliation, Christian humility? The canons are not (in a
new Orthodox cliche), veritable cannons to shoot everybody whom one
believes to be in the wrong down! Where does one draw the line? Does
one not commune with those who may have communed with ecumenists? Does
one not communune with those who may have communed with those who may
have communed with ecumenists? This is a pointless (and recursively
endless) argument!
3) The reason why some Orthodox have walled themselves off from
"mainline" Orthodox Churches is partly not to be infected by the same
"virus" that is slowly corroding the Orthodox witness (and ethos) in
some circles of the Orthodox Church. (Those who still naively claim
that Orthodox clergy do not commune Roman Catholics would do well to do
some of their own, independent, research into the matter. It is
however, as I have tried to point out, not the OFFICIAL position of any
Orthodox Church that I know of!). This walling off is also to call the
"mainline" Orthodox back to the "mainline" (and TRUE) witness and praxis
of our Holy Fathers. By calling all Orthodox (those who are in
communion directly with the EP, and those who are in communion with the
EP in some indirect way) "without Grace", one in effect destroys the
reason for walling oneself off in the first place (since are no Orthodox
to call back to Patristic Orthodoxy)! (Those who believe themselves to
be the last remnants of Orthodoxy would obviously not see themselves as
Patristically walled off from "world Orthodoxy", but that THEY
themselves in effect constitute "world Orthodoxy").
4) Although I do not like pointing this out, since it is often used
unfairly to discredit the witness of ALL Old Calendar Greek Christians,
it is a fact that those factions of the Greek Old Calendar Church which
have started believing that "mainline Orthodox" are invariably without
Grace, have fragmented into ever smaller groups. This, more than
anything else, helped to discredit the witness of ALL Old Calendar
Churches (including the Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian, the Old Calendar
Churches of Romania and Bulgaria, and the ROCA). That is an extremely
unfortunate side-effect of the somewhat radical view that all Orthodox
(except for a very exclusive little group), is without Grace.
Perhaps I am, in saying this, myself guilty of preaching some
"exclusive" form of Orthodoxy. Forgive me if I do! I do believe deeply
that Orthodoxy should allow room for at least a little bit of personal
opinion and expression. Orthodoxy does not, in my view and reading,
allow for an absolutely legalistic system of "justice of Grace".
If this makes me a closet-ecumenist, so be it!
In Christ,
Peter, sinner
Salien...@msu.edu wrote:
>
> All the months of Reader Constantine's emphatic defense of One
> Baptism, One Faith, One Truth residing in ROCOR, while not formally
> denying "grace" in the excommunicated churches, and now even HIS moral
> and canonical authority is trumped by failure to deny grace. And
> interestingly, you even excoriate the faith of each and every bishop
> in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch -- Reader Constantine never
> did that. And up until the business of the "black suit imposters," I
> have no problem with anything presented.
>
> Perhaps, jas1382, you can appreciate my reluctance to accept your
> presentation out of hand, given the apparent truth presented here
> previously -- notably by the polemicists of ROCOR. My immediate
> question is to ask clarification as to the definition of the
> "ecumenism" of which you speak; and who are the "ecumenists" communed
> by the "other traditional old calendarists"?
--
Research Assistant
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Stellenbosch
SOUTH AFRICA
Tel: +27 (21) 883 9825
E-Mail: hand...@cs.sun.ac.za
Gerard Serafin
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> He can't. He has the dread disease of "papal maximalism" which is a
> mental disorder.
Have you been reading St Justin Papovich or Fr Seraphim Rose lately?
> It's a sensory and emotional disorder confusing the Pope with with some
> type of Unwavering Truth, the Rock of Peter, the Anchor of Stability
> and so forth.
I guess Jesus was sensorially and emotionally disordered?
"You are Peter/Rock and on this Rock I will build My Church and the
gates of hell shall not prevail...and whatsoever you bind on earth shall
be bound in heaven..."
"Feed My lambs, feed My sheep."
"And after you have returned, confirm the brethren in the faith."
> Usually, one sees the disease among Vatican residents and members of
> the Blue Legion and other fringe groups within the RC.
Hey! My aunt Susie belongs to teh Blue Army!!!!! You think Susy is a
nut?????
> Bishop Lefebre suffered from it until it burst and then he suddenly saw
> himself as the Rock, the Anchor etc; Now he has his own church.
Wow! What insight you show here (into the ability of an intellegent
person to stereotype and simplify to the point of absurdity!).
Back to your Popovich and Rose books!!! :-)
Gerard Serafin
T254 wrote,
replying to Gerard's:
> >Expecting a visit from an Orthodox priest who wants to watch, on my
> >downloaded video, parts of Pope's meeting with the two million young
> >people at the Vigil and to watch parts of the Dedication of Christ the
> >Savior in Moscow as well...he can help me since he can translate the
> >Russian.
> My, my, my Father Gerard. I must say that you do go to such extremes at times
> to get a rise out of us.
Actually I was telling the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth. However, Father did not come by as planned (a few things came
up that demanded immediate attention) and so we re-scheduled for
tomorrow...along with shopping and possibly dinner together. This priest
has seen some of the WYD gatherings in Rome on EWTN (he is a great
admirer of Mother Angelica), but missed some stunning scenes as well. He
is eager, too, to see some scenes of the dedication of the Church of
Christ the Savior in Moscow (and his computer is not capable of video at
this point).
> But in this case I perfectly understand. For when I
> was about seven or eight I had an imaginery friend too. His name was TZOR and
> he was an alien. He stayed around for a few years until I discovered girls and
> then he mysteriously dissapeared. Guess he must have gotten jealous and
> returned to his home planet or something.
Thanks for sharing this poignant vignette from your childhood.
> Is this the same Orthodox priest that is going to get you a menial job at one
> of the Moscow Churches you mentioned?
A lowly position at not just any Moscow Church; but at the OCA
representation church of St Catherine's!
Yes. The same good Father.
Wayne
lost. Actually with evagrius his filter came off a month of so back but it
is going back up today. ;-)
G Schneider <a...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:39AB511E...@erols.com...
Peter E. Matthaei
> Perhaps I am, in saying this, myself guilty of preaching some
> "exclusive" form of Orthodoxy. Forgive me if I do! I do believe deeply
> that Orthodoxy should allow room for at least a little bit of personal
> opinion and expression. Orthodoxy does not, in my view and reading,
> allow for an absolutely legalistic system of "justice of Grace".
Now, I do not quite agree with myself on one unqualified detail: the
question of personal opinion in the Orthodox Church. One of the reasons
why I love Orthodoxy so much is that it gives fallen humans (e.g. me)
the opportunity to be cured of my fallen nature in a way that works for
ME. Since we as humans are all different, with different strengths and
weaknesses, our expression of the One Orthodox Spirituality in our lives
(to the degree that we make an effort to express this Spirituality) will
often be different. Also, the advice on certain details that I might
get from my spiritual Father might be different from the advice that
someone else would receive from the same Spiritual Father concerning a
similar situation.
Orthodox spirituality is not uniform. We get Saints in all kinds of
forms: monastic Saints, married Saints, Saints who were formerly
prostitutes, Saints who were born with many virtues, Saints who were
martyred by emperors, Emperors who were Saints, literary geniuses who
were Saints, illiterate peasants who were Saints... the list can go on
and on.
The Fathers of the Church (upto modern times), all emphasised different
things (to the point that some Fathers, like Saint Augustine, even
over-emphasised certain aspects of the faith at the cost, perhaps, of
others). The Orthodox Church admits that certain issues are complex
(for example, the relation between faith and works is not quite as
clear-cut as some Protestants especially would like). The relationship
between science and faith (something of special interest to me), is not
absolute, but depends on many parameters (content and intent of
"science" or "faith", conclusions that can or cannot be drawn from
either, etc.)
This is what I meant with "scope for personal opinion". There are some
aspects of the Orthodox Tradition which are of course NOT open to
personal re-interpretation. As an Orthodox Christian, I would not be at
liberty to personally opine about the Dogma of the Trinity. If I am of
the opinion that Christ was God's most magnificent Creature, I would not
be Orthodox. Or: if I decided that the Theotokos was not, in fact, a
Virgin, I would not be Orthodox.
With ecumenism, however, things are not quite black and white (even
though the Orthodox teaching surrounding the Church, on those within Her
as well as those without Her, is quite clear-cut). There are a lot of
Orthodox who quite innocently (perhaps ignorantly) believe ecumenism (in
the WCC) to be part of the Orthodox Church's calling to witness the
Truth of Orthodoxy to the world. And there was, perhaps, a time when
many Orthodox ecumenists did not really compromise the Orthodox
Tradition but did a lot to promote Orthodoxy. Then there are those
Orthodox who do commune [with] Roman Catholics, knowing the theological
implications of such actions, there are those Orthodox who do believe
quite strongly in the branch theory (including some rather prominent
hierarchs), and who are quite in favour of abandoning sober theological
discussions toward unity in favour of some pseudo-spiritual universal
"love" (which is not love). Even in the "mainline" Churches, there are
many clergy (and laypeople) who are very much in favour of the
withdrawal of the Orthodox Churches from the World Council of Churches.
The very definition of the word "ecumenism" is a bit hazy (in modern
times it seems to mean different things to different people). Until
such time as these issues have been settled by a general Orthodox
council in accord with the decisions and Traditions and Life of the
Church, how can one claim that ALL "mainline" Orthodox are without
Grace? As long as the official position of the "mainline" Orthodox
Churches remains that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ (even
though many hierarchs, and some of the laity may be opining differently
and acting contrary to this Truth), how can one declare all Orthodox in
"mainline" Churches to be, in fact, heterodox? What then of such
spiritual Luminaries as Father Justin Popovich who remained, to the best
of my knowledge, in the Serbian Orthodox Church? What of Elder Joseph
the Hesychast? What of Elder Philotheos Zervakos who died in the State
Church of Greece? What of those brave souls in the Russian Church who
died martyric deaths, yet by circumstance were in one way or another
part of the Moscow Patriarchate? Were they also not Orthodox? Saying
that these Saints, these Elders, these brave Orthodox Christians are
without salvific Grace is (to me) inconsistent (and spiritually
destructive).
Ecumenism, in its present form especially, is a heresy. Yet not all
Orthodox Churches headed by veteran ecumenist, are themselves
ecumenist. Of course, I find it somewhat inconsistent to give the kiss
of peace to those whom one believes (or knows) to be indulging in
heretical (uncanonical) activities. However, as I pointed out in my
previous posting, the aim is not legal consistency, but a return of
"mainline" Orthodox jurisdictions to the mainline of Patristic
Orthodoxy. This seems to be forgotten at times by some groups.
It is of course very much easier to just give up on what is often
(imprecisely) called "world Orthodoxy". It is much harder calling this
same "world Orthodoxy" back to the world of Patristic Orthodoxy (using
an uncompromising stance, yet being GENTLE and loving at the same time -
something that IS possible, but not always easy). Orthodoxy offers
simple answers to many problems or issues, yet it never offers (or
should not) offer simplistic answers.
Lastly, an open question: if all Orthodox but a select few are without
Grace, when did the rest of us (both within the "official" Orthodox
Churches, and those in moderate resistance to them - ROCA etc.) lose our
Grace? When the Ecumenical Patriarch issued his famous/notorious
Encyclical in the early 1920's? When most Orthodox Churches changed the
Calendar? When the first Orthodox Church joined the World Council of
Churches? When the first Orthodox hierarch communed a Roman Catholic?
(Actually, I am pretty sure that this happened quite often throughout
the past millenium, with or without official sanctioning!) When the
first Orthodox person participated in an Anglican service? (Once again,
this happened even way before ecumenism was an issue). It is a scandal
that many of these things happen, yet they do not in one big suck draw
Grace from the entire body of "mainline" Orthodoxy (and those indirectly
in communion with them).
Super-correctness is a danger! Woe unto us if we fall into that trap!
In Christ,
Peter, sinner
Wayne
Peter E. Matthaei <hand...@cs.sun.ac.za> wrote in message
news:39ABFB49...@cs.sun.ac.za...
--snipped--
>Ecumenism, in its present form especially, is a heresy.
This ecumenism of which you speak, it seems to me, does not exist.
Best wishes,
Wayne (james)
Reader Alexis
You bring up very many excellent points in your post that are not
usually considered in the "ecumenist/anti-ecumenist" argument. Your
veiws seem to be very well rounded, not outrightly condemning anyone.
Of course, the only problems with having a council to decide the
question of ecumenism is this: Who is going to decide which churches
are "Orthodox" and which are not?
About righteous men and women in "ecumenist" churches, let me relate the
following:
Years ago, when the St. Herman of Alaska Monastery was still under the
jurisdiction of the Church Abroad, Metropolitan Philaret sent an
article to them to print in "The Orthodox Word" about Elder Tavrion,
a very righteous elder, whom was under the jurisdiction of the Moscow
Patriarchate. Of course they published the article, and both the
monastery and Metropolitan Philaret received a backlash of insults,
people calling them "Sergianists," "Ecumenists," etc. However, now even
Metropolitan Philaret's relics have been found to be incorrupt.
Anyway, just another example of how we SHOULD be... Slow to judge.
With Love in Christ,
the sinful Reader Alexis
--------------------------------------------
In article <39ABFB49...@cs.sun.ac.za>,
Reader Alexis
Probably he would say something very similar. Of course, one must
realize that great numbers of people in one's church don't neccesarily
mean one's church is healthy.
Take into account also that Fr. Alexey is a convert from Roman
Catholicism, and the Roman Catholic church that he grew up with is very
much dead.
I know a number of people who are staunch Roman Catholics, but at the
same time they can't help but admit that something is wrong with their
church. Of course they are somewhat outcasts from the local Roman
Catholic parishes in the area, as they are much too "traditional" for
anyone's taste, their priest included.
They seem to be of the opinion that Vatican II "sealed," as it were, the
Roman Catholic church's fate. Ever since then the compromises that the
Roman Catholic church makes with the world only became more and more the
norm. Of course, that is only paraphrasing what has been told to me.
With Love in Christ,
Reader Alexis
In article <39A91701...@home.com>,
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Rusnak2938 wrote:
>
> > As far as I know, Fr Alexey is a priest in good standing in ROCOR
serving the
> > Denver church.
>
> That's my understanding too.
>
> I wonder, if he caught any glimpses of the recent World Youth Day
> celebrations in Rome, with two million young people gathered with the
> Pope, would he still say these words he wrote a few years ago:
>
> "Meanwhile, Pope John Paul II must do something; he must somehow shore
> up his Church, his papacy. He is now turning in the direction of the
> East and the ancient, historic Patriarchates of Orthodoxy. He is
looking
> for a blood transfusion for his dying Church."
>
> I wonder if Fr Alexei realizes that there were more young people
> gathered in Rome than there are members of his entire jurisdiction
> throughout the whole world--by far. And probably more young
> people--between 18 and 35--than were in Orthodox Churches throughout
the
> entire world on the same Sunday of the great closing Mass in Rome...
>
> I wonder what he'd say TODAY?
>
> --
> Gerard Serafin
>
> Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
> A Catholic Page for Lovers:
> http://praiseofglory.com
> "There is only one sadness: not to be a saint" (Leon Bloy)
>
Reader Alexis
Was Fr. Alexey tonsured a monk? I only ask because I keep hearing the
word "monastic" in reference to him.
With Love in Christ,
Reader Alexis
In article <sqjm1a...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Phil \(Silouan\) Thompson" <him...@philthompson.net> wrote:
>
> He probably didn't. I doubt his monastic lifestyle includes a lot of
TV
> time. I do know that I've never heard anything about this papal event
from
> anybody but you, Gerard.
>
> > I wonder what he'd say TODAY?
>
> I suppose he'd say the words of the same Liturgy and offices he says
every
> Sunday. Because, unlike you, he's remained faithful to the Church. You
could
> still return to the Church, too, you know.
>
> Silouan
Peter E. Matthaei
comment (even though one does not get many QUICK comments from me...).
We are all called to various degrees to lead a "monastic" life (the
married Saints of the first few centuries of our Christian Church lived
a life more monastic than one sometimes finds in modern monasteries!).
It seems that there is a bit of a tendency at times to leave spiritual
matters (deep prayer, strict fasting, abstaining from some worldly
pleasures, dressing "funny") to tonsured monks, and to leave watching
television, reading all sorts of less healthy literature, dressing
ultra-fashionable etc. to those living in the world. Nobody asks of us
living in the world to become "hermits in the city" (which would be
over-ambitious and unhealthy). We should inform ourselves of important
events all over the world (yes, there is a world outside the USA), to
have informed opinions and to be able to critically evaluate that which
happens around us. There is a definite temptation for some of us (and I
say this because I have to fight against this daily) to let our prayer
rules fall in with our TV viewing schedule, to neglect to become
spiritually quiet amidst the ringing of our cellphones, to gather around
ourselves all sorts of unnecessary riches whilst passing by the homeless
man sleeping on our doorstep every morning, to be overly concerned about
what others may think of us (how we look, how we act, how we talk)
instead of trying to set a humble, quiet Orthodox example... The list
of the trappings is virtually endless. It might be beneficial if we all
(especially during fasting times) take a cue from the Fools for Christ
(who were not concerned about what others thought of them) and from
monastics (who deny virtually every gift most of us take for granted,
including our much cherished "free will"). Of course, we should not
delude ourselves either into thinking that we can (or should) implement
everything in our own lives that these great Saints and men and women
do. Rather, we should acquire a bit of their "monastic" spirit. There
is a brilliant article on Orthodoxinfo.com entitled "The Orthodox
Christian in the Information Age" which mentions many of these points.
Okay, so this was not a quick comment...
In Christ,
Peter, sinner
Reader Alexis wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> Was Fr. Alexey tonsured a monk? I only ask because I keep hearing the
> word "monastic" in reference to him.
>
> With Love in Christ,
> Reader Alexis
--
Catherine Hampton
: Was Fr. Alexey tonsured a monk? I only ask because I keep hearing the
: word "monastic" in reference to him.
Not the last time I heard. He's a widower whose wife died suddenly a
couple of years ago. Two of their children are grown, but he has a
teenage daughter who lives at home and is raising her.
Fr. Alexey lives a fairly ascetic lifestyle, from what I"ve seen and
heard. He's a close friend of several people at my parish and the
spiritual father of a couple of them, so we see him once in a while.
I've been to confession with him, and he's a good, gentle but thorough
confessor.
I would not be surprised if he ended up going into a monastery
once his daughter is grown and settled in life. I don't think he'll
be able to do so until then, though.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
====================================================================
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Kovalevo Children's Home * <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
Orthodox Christian Resources * <http://www.iconwall.org/orthodox/>
St. Herman of Alaska * <http://www.stherman.sunnyvale.ca.us/>
Gerard Serafin
Reader Alexis wrote:
> Probably he would say something very similar. Of course, one must
> realize that great numbers of people in one's church don't neccesarily
> mean one's church is healthy.
This refers (I clip extra posts added on here) to Fr Alexei's comment,
in "Rush To Embrace," that the Pope is looking to the Eastern Patriarchs
to bolster of his "dying Church."
Of course, numbers alone are not enough. But vitality and aliveness--and
works of mercy and service to the poor, and holiness of life--they count
for something. On all of these fronts (as well as numbers) the Catholic
Church is far from "dying."
If Fr Alexei would say the same thing today, I think he is blinded to
reality.
> Take into account also that Fr. Alexey is a convert from Roman
> Catholicism, and the Roman Catholic church that he grew up with is very
> much dead.
I did take that into account. The Church he grew up with is the same
Catholic Church of today--the same organism and Mystical Body of Christ.
While some forms he knew may have died--thus it has ever been in the
life of the Church in her pilgrim journey--the same vital spirit (the
Holy Spirit) guides her as always in the course of history.
> I know a number of people who are staunch Roman Catholics, but at the
> same time they can't help but admit that something is wrong with their
> church. Of course they are somewhat outcasts from the local Roman
> Catholic parishes in the area, as they are much too "traditional" for
> anyone's taste, their priest included.
Of course, there will always be "somthing" wrong with the genuine Church
of Christ; read the New Testament and the epistles of Paul for that.
You, of course, know that many Orthodox think there is "something wrong"
with Orthodoxy as well. Just read Metropolitan Philip's "Right Faith,
Wrong System" for a hierarch's viewpoint. But any number of Orthodox
have recently written about some serious problems Orthodoxy is facing
today. No Church is without problems and challenges.
No Church seems more alive or interesting to me than the Catholic
Church. Even her problems seem the most interesting!!! :-)
> They seem to be of the opinion that Vatican II "sealed," as it were, the
> Roman Catholic church's fate. Ever since then the compromises that the
> Roman Catholic church makes with the world only became more and more the
> norm. Of course, that is only paraphrasing what has been told to me.
The Second Vatican Council indeed "sealed" the fate of the Catholic
Church insofar as it is a legitimate Council of the world's Catholic
episcopate, in union with the Successor of St Peter. As a Council, it
takes a good bit of time for its teachings, insights, "spirit" to
permeate the life of the Church. This is happening now in some
surprising ways.
For example, at the stunning gathering of youth in Rome last week (even
the Pope said it surpassed all expectations, indeed all "human
expectations"), at the beautiful welcoming Opening ceremony in St
Peter's Square--with youth from 160 countries present with great
enthusiasm, Cardinal Francis Stafford, president of the Pontifical
Council of the Laity, addressed the Pope. He mentioned how now hundreds
of thousands of young people were finding a welcome in the outstretched
columns of Bernini's collonade.
He mentioned how the young bishop, Karol Wotyla, so often passed by as
he went to the sessions of Vatican II (Wotyla was one of the leading
lights of Vatican II). Now, Stafford said, "behold the children of
Vatican II!"
Surprises of the Spirit indeed!
I think those who have been resistant to Vatican II will have to do some
revising sooner or later...the fruits are beginning to blossom to the
glory of God and the upbuilding of the Church and the benefit of
humanity.
Silouan
> It seems that there is a bit of a tendency at times to leave
> spiritual matters (deep prayer, strict fasting, abstaining from
> some worldly pleasures, dressing "funny") to tonsured monks,
I dress funny. But it's not because I'm a monk. I'm just sloppy.
Silouan
Peter E. Matthaei
> >Ecumenism, in its present form especially, is a heresy.
>
>
And I have some friends who give me dirty looks if I tell them that
little green men with three-pronged probes and an out-of-gas flying
saucer did not (in fact) land at Roswell.
Seriously though:
How do you mean, "this ecumenism" of which I speak does not exist? Do
you seriously believe the Eucharistic intercommunion between Roman
Catholics and so-called Eastern Orthodox to be a figment of my (and some
other people's) imagination? Do yourself a favour and read one of the
newest issue of "True Life in God", where a pilgrimage of Roman
Catholics to the Holy Land is described... Read the speach by
Archimandrite Eugene Pappas (Greek Orthodox). Read the comments by
participants. Read the comments by Vassula Ryden. Read the passages
where it explicitly states that this group of charismatically inclined
Roman Catholics received Holy Communion FROM ORTHODOX PRIESTS,
supposedly with the explicit blessing of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. I
can post these passages if you feel that my imagination ran amock when I
read the passage that "for the first time in 1000" (something not quite
true) Catholics and Orthodox communed at the same chalice.
And btw, I did not go out of my way to acquire this magazine. Actually,
it was passed to a friend of mine by a Protestant minister who felt that
this was a wonderful expression of the (existing) unity of Orthodoxy and
Roman Catholicism. (If this is how non-Orthodox perceive "genuine
Orthodox Christian love", then ecumenism has indeed succeeded in
destroying a true Orthodox witness. If Orthodox enlightenment is
perceived to be an Orthodox monk dancing with "charismatic Roman
Catholics", then I very much do not want to be part of that Church.
What happened to TRUE Orthodox love which acknowledges that communion is
only possible when full agreement in FAITH is not just wishful
thinking? What of that Orthodox love one witnesses in Orthodox
monasteries that welcome all into their midst, giving them food and
shelter asking nothing in return, bestowing their love in equal measure
on all, while at the same time if one held a gun to the abbot's head,
they would still not commune non-Orthodox or Orthodox who did not
confess? What of THEOSIS, true mystical Orthodox enlightenment by
ascesis, not some "holy rave party"?)
I find it somewhat hard to believe that Patriarch Diodoros of Jerusalem
would have given His blessing to such a spectacle, I must admit.
However: the magazine reported it. It printed pictures where one can
clearly see Orthodox priests handing out communion to members of the
pilgrimage. One can see these "charismatics" dancing with Orthodox
clergy in front of Holy Icons. Fudging pictures, distorting the facts
about "ecumenical contacts", etc. is something that some would attribute
to "Orthodox extremists", and not to avid ecumenists. Thus I am led to
believe that most of it is in fact TRUE (notwithstanding whether it
happened with the Patriarchate's blessing or not).
It is perhaps tiresome revisiting the same old tired routine time and
again. As long as there still remain Orthodox who try their best not to
acknowledge what happens at many of these "harmless" "sound Orthodox"
ecumenical gatherings, this deadlock will remain. If those who still
believe ecumenism to witness to the Primacy and Truth of Orthodoxy could
finally at least ACKNOWLEDGE the facts (reported without attempts to
fudge them, or make them fit in with some kind of sinister "Orthodox
fundamentalist agenda"), then we are one huge leap further down the road
to actually resolving the issues that sometimes divide us.
The only way one can say that the above examples of "blur blur blur"
kind of free-for-all "love" is not heretical ecumenism, is if one
believes that this intercommunion is in fact PATRISTIC ORTHODOXY. I
doubt any sober Orthodox Christian could claim that with a straight
face.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Gerard Serafin <jer...@home.com> wrote:
>
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > He can't. He has the dread disease of "papal maximalism" which is a
> > mental disorder.
>
> Have you been reading St Justin Papovich or Fr Seraphim Rose lately?
Nope. Didn't know Popovich was a saint.
Been looking at Gary Will's book. :)
>
> > It's a sensory and emotional disorder confusing the Pope with with
some
> > type of Unwavering Truth, the Rock of Peter, the Anchor of Stability
> > and so forth.
>
> I guess Jesus was sensorially and emotionally disordered?
>
> "You are Peter/Rock and on this Rock I will build My Church and the
> gates of hell shall not prevail...and whatsoever you bind on earth
shall
> be bound in heaven..."
You know that the Rock isn't Peter but his confession of faith. :)
>
> "Feed My lambs, feed My sheep."
>
> "And after you have returned, confirm the brethren in the faith."
>
> > Usually, one sees the disease among Vatican residents and members of
> > the Blue Legion and other fringe groups within the RC.
>
> Hey! My aunt Susie belongs to teh Blue Army!!!!! You think Susy is a
> nut?????
Could be. Them Blue Legion of Rasillon types are a touch kookie.
>
> > Bishop Lefebre suffered from it until it burst and then he suddenly
saw
> > himself as the Rock, the Anchor etc; Now he has his own church.
>
> Wow! What insight you show here (into the ability of an intellegent
> person to stereotype and simplify to the point of absurdity!).
Thanks.
>
> Back to your Popovich and Rose books!!! :-)
Nah. Back to reading Gary Wills and Cozzen's book. :)
>
> --
> Gerard Serafin
>
> Celebrating the Romance of Orthodoxy:
> A Catholic Page for Lovers:
> http://praiseofglory.com
> "There is only one sadness: not to be a saint" (Leon Bloy)
>
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <39AB511E...@erols.com>,
Really? A substantial conversation?????
Are you sure???????
We didn't share recipes, discussed protrastions or prayer ropes.
How could it have been substantial outside of those subjects?
Same deal, unkillfiled everyone.
Good. That meant you had to read everything.
evagr...@my-deja.com
Too bad. But then......if all you want is solipsistic activity.
In article <39abc...@news.pacifier.com>,
"Wayne" <pav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> LOL... and moi aussi! I just came off a reformat and my killfiles
were all
> lost. Actually with evagrius his filter came off a month of so back
but it
> is going back up today. ;-)
>
> G Schneider <a...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:39AB511E...@erols.com...
> >
> >
Wayne
What do I seriously believe? I believe I'm fed-up to the gills with some
folks pointing their fingers at the churches in SCOBA and crying out,
"Ecumenists!" I believe that the Antiochian Church is every bit as
"Orthodox" as the Church to which you belong. That is what I "seriously"
believe. Thanks.
Wayne
Peter E. Matthaei <hand...@cs.sun.ac.za> wrote in message
news:39ACF95D...@cs.sun.ac.za...
> Wayne wrote:
> > >Ecumenism, in its present form especially, is a heresy.
> >
evagr...@my-deja.com
In article <39ACF95D...@cs.sun.ac.za>,
"Peter E. Matthaei" <hand...@cs.sun.ac.za> wrote:
> Wayne wrote:
> > >Ecumenism, in its present form especially, is a heresy.
> >
You should check out the "True Life in God" web site. Apparently, the
founder of the movement is a Greek Orthodox woman born in Egypt who has
had visions etc; of Christ.
Interesting stuff!
>
> In Christ,
> Peter, sinner
>
> --
> Research Assistant
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of Stellenbosch
> SOUTH AFRICA
>
> Tel: +27 (21) 883 9825
> E-Mail: hand...@cs.sun.ac.za
>
Steve
> What do I seriously believe? I believe I'm fed-up to the gills with some
> folks pointing their fingers at the churches in SCOBA and crying out,
> "Ecumenists!"
I somehow doubt that Peter is pointing fingers at
"SCOBA", which is a purely western-hemisphere
"conference". He's writing from South Africa.
Regardless of which jurisdiction we associate with, I
think that we should either
1) be willing to honestly sift through rumor and fact
and come up with a picture of reality, praying the
whole while for discernment, OR
2) we should leave whatever underlying issue is being
addressed to those who are willing to sift through and
face the truth, without prejudice, no matter what it
turns out to be, OR
3) believe that the "problem" -- in this case
"ecumenism" -- is an OK thing, and not really a problem
at all.
In my own case, the second is the better choice; I have
too much to concern myself with my own salvation to
engage in this work, and I'm too young in the faith to
become preoccupied with this illness. (This is opinion
gleaned from both "SCOBA" and ROCA priests, who gave
consistent counsel.)
And, yes, I believe ecumenism is an illness; the big
question addressed by these reports (or tales) is "Just
how infested is the Church REALLY?"
However, I'm thankful to St. Justin Popovich and others
who are chosen to help keep the purity of the Church
intact.
I must confess that I simply glanced at Peter's post,
and was grateful that there are keepers of the watch.
It became my choice whether to get more involved, or to
become involved only through prayer.
/Steve
Polichinello
"Wayne" <pavil8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Mr. Matthaei
>
> What do I seriously believe? I believe I'm fed-up to the gills with
some
> folks pointing their fingers at the churches in SCOBA and crying out,
> "Orthodox" as the Church to which you belong. That is what I
"seriously"
> believe. Thanks.
Well, give him this much credit, he isn't making his case by screaming
like a few other hardliners we are acquainted with. His post is
thoughtfull and very well argued.
Best Regards,
Derek Copold
John Peters
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8ojflj$qj9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Nope. Didn't know Popovich was a saint.
>
>Been looking at Gary Will's book. :)
Read more about the saints and less of the NY Times Best sellers and then
perhaps you'll know more about your religion than Gerard!
John
Evan
> How do you mean, "this ecumenism" of which I speak does not exist?
Do
> you seriously believe the Eucharistic intercommunion between Roman
> Catholics and so-called Eastern Orthodox to be a figment of my (and
some
> other people's) imagination?
There is a big difference between what may go on in some places, and
what is approved or allowed. Roman Catholics are often surprised to
find out that, contrary to what their leaders have said or implied,
that they are not allowed to receive in the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Sometimes they go, and sometimes it happens. Are there some priests
out there who willingly give the mysteries to Roman Catholics? I am
sure there are. That doesn't mean much more than that there are some
folks out there who will do what they want.
>Do yourself a favour and read one of
the
> newest issue of "True Life in God", where a pilgrimage of Roman
> Catholics to the Holy Land is described... Read the speach by
> Archimandrite Eugene Pappas (Greek Orthodox). Read the comments by
> participants. Read the comments by Vassula Ryden. Read the passages
> where it explicitly states that this group of charismatically
inclined
> Roman Catholics received Holy Communion FROM ORTHODOX PRIESTS,
> supposedly with the explicit blessing of the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
The key word is "supposedly" isn't it? Did they say that they were
Roman Catholics or did they just forget to mention it. I have read
some of the nonsense that Vassula Ryden has written over the years.
Her popularity is more with Roman Catholics than it is for the average
Orthodox Catholic.
> I
> can post these passages if you feel that my imagination ran amock
when I
> read the passage that "for the first time in 1000" (something not
quite
> true) Catholics and Orthodox communed at the same chalice.
Again, some folks with an agenda doesn't mean that it is the norm or
acceptable.
> And btw, I did not go out of my way to acquire this magazine.
Actually,
> it was passed to a friend of mine by a Protestant minister who felt
that
> this was a wonderful expression of the (existing) unity of Orthodoxy
and
> Roman Catholicism. (If this is how non-Orthodox perceive "genuine
> Orthodox Christian love", then ecumenism has indeed succeeded in
> destroying a true Orthodox witness. If Orthodox enlightenment is
> perceived to be an Orthodox monk dancing with "charismatic Roman
> Catholics", then I very much do not want to be part of that Church.
Perhaps you are pointing your finger in the wrong direction. What you
take exception to is what some Protestant minister said. It is to him
that you should direct your comments. I discard comments about the
Orthodox Catholic Church made by Benny Hinn, I don't go after the
Orthodox Catholic Church over those comments.
> What happened to TRUE Orthodox love which acknowledges that communion
is
> only possible when full agreement in FAITH is not just wishful
> thinking?
It still exists.
> What of that Orthodox love one witnesses in Orthodox
> monasteries that welcome all into their midst, giving them food and
> shelter asking nothing in return, bestowing their love in equal
measure
> on all, while at the same time if one held a gun to the abbot's head,
> they would still not commune non-Orthodox or Orthodox who did not
> confess? What of THEOSIS, true mystical Orthodox enlightenment by
> ascesis, not some "holy rave party"?)
It is still the norm.
> I find it somewhat hard to believe that Patriarch Diodoros of
Jerusalem
> would have given His blessing to such a spectacle, I must admit.
But we don't know if he did, or what he may have given his blessing to
or about.
> However: the magazine reported it.
I would never take what a magazine reported to the bank.
> It printed pictures where one can
> clearly see Orthodox priests handing out communion to members of the
> pilgrimage.
Not everyone with a beard is an Orthodox Catholic priest. They could
have been Uniate priests or Maronite or some other Roman Catholic
group.
> One can see these "charismatics" dancing with Orthodox
> clergy in front of Holy Icons.
Again, do you know that they were Orthodox Catholic priests? Or were
they something else?
> Fudging pictures, distorting the
facts
> about "ecumenical contacts", etc. is something that some would
attribute
> to "Orthodox extremists", and not to avid ecumenists. Thus I am led
to
> believe that most of it is in fact TRUE (notwithstanding whether it
> happened with the Patriarchate's blessing or not).
Nothing may have been fudged, but it may not fairly represent who was
involved. Again, Orthodox Catholic priests are not the only one with
beards or even a three bar Cross.
> It is perhaps tiresome revisiting the same old tired routine time and
> again. As long as there still remain Orthodox who try their best not
to
> acknowledge what happens at many of these "harmless" "sound Orthodox"
> ecumenical gatherings, this deadlock will remain.
It is also tiresome to keep asking on what basis you are making some
judgments. The Patriarch "supposedly", pictures of some folks who may
or may not be Orthodox Catholic priests, etc., all give some reason to
question if you are simply looking for evidence to support your other
personal opinions, even if the "evidence" may not be as convincing to
others as it is to you.
>If those who still
> believe ecumenism to witness to the Primacy and Truth of Orthodoxy
could
> finally at least ACKNOWLEDGE the facts (reported without attempts to
> fudge them, or make them fit in with some kind of sinister "Orthodox
> fundamentalist agenda"), then we are one huge leap further down the
road
> to actually resolving the issues that sometimes divide us.
Again, that such things could happen, in isolated cases is not
something that many would deny. Should it be stopped? Sure. But it
isn't something that you can so broadly paint the whole Church with
that brush.
> The only way one can say that the above examples of "blur blur blur"
> kind of free-for-all "love" is not heretical ecumenism, is if one
> believes that this intercommunion is in fact PATRISTIC ORTHODOXY. I
> doubt any sober Orthodox Christian could claim that with a straight
> face.
While a few rotten apples can ruin the barrel, that has not happened,
nor is it likely to happen.
That is not to say that we should let our guard down, but it is not the
norm. And what is reported in the press is not always the way it
really is.
Evan
Peter E. Matthaei
Thank you for your post. I thought it was an honest critical evaluation
of what I wrote. And I agree wholeheartedly with you on most of your
points (that the media cannot always be trusted to report the facts,
etc.). The sources in this case, as Evagrius pointed out, are a bunch
of people influenced by a Greek mystic. Vassula's claims to automatic
handwriting, conversations with Christ, etc. make me very
uncomfortable. I also agree (as I pointed out in the post to which you
replied) that I find it hard to believe that the Patriarch of Jerusalm
would have given His blessing to the events that took place. I would be
somewhat less inclined though to believe that the incident of communion
between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox did not take place. (As
you rightly admit, this kind of thing DOES happen.)
In one of my previous postings I also wrote that this kind of communion,
even though it HAPPENS, is NOT the official line in any Orthodox
Church. And that is precisely the reason why I think that those
Orthodox extremists who believe "mainline" Orthodox Churches to be
without Grace are being absurd (a notion made even more absurd by their
claims that the ROCOR is without Grace for Her ties with the Jerusalem
Patriarchate and the Serbian Patriarchate).
I just want to ask you this: WHY is it that many Roman Catholics believe
that they can receive Holy Communion in Orthodox Churches?
In Christ,
Peter, sinner
Evan wrote:
>
> There is a big difference between what may go on in some places, and
> what is approved or allowed. Roman Catholics are often surprised to
> find out that, contrary to what their leaders have said or implied,
> that they are not allowed to receive in the Orthodox Catholic Church.
> Sometimes they go, and sometimes it happens. Are there some priests
> out there who willingly give the mysteries to Roman Catholics? I am
> sure there are. That doesn't mean much more than that there are some
> folks out there who will do what they want.
> Again, that such things could happen, in isolated cases is not
> something that many would deny. Should it be stopped? Sure. But it
> isn't something that you can so broadly paint the whole Church with
> that brush.
>
> While a few rotten apples can ruin the barrel, that has not happened,
> nor is it likely to happen.
>
> That is not to say that we should let our guard down, but it is not the
> norm. And what is reported in the press is not always the way it
> really is.
evagr...@my-deja.com
I mention one book and you make a generalization about my reading.
Interesting. How do you know I'm not reading, (not saint's lives,
which are, in most cases, stereotyped hagiographies), but saint's
writings?
At the moment I'm reading St. Maximus the Confessor. Do you have a
problem with that?
In article <cqir5.1985$U41.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"John Peters" <hoodp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8ojflj$qj9
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >Nope. Didn't know Popovich was a saint.
> >
> >Been looking at Gary Will's book. :)
>
> Read more about the saints and less of the NY Times Best sellers and
then
> perhaps you'll know more about your religion than Gerard!
>
> John
>
>
G Schneider
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Ms. Schneider,
>
> In article <39AB511E...@erols.com>,
> oh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > Silouan wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Yep, just had one with Michel.
>
> Really? A substantial conversation?????
>
> Are you sure???????
>
> We didn't share recipes, discussed protrastions or prayer ropes.
More's the pity. Everyone eats. Everyone's a sinner and must protrate
themself from time to time and a little repetitive prayer is very
soothing to the rough edges of the soul.
> How could it have been substantial outside of those subjects?
>
> Same deal, unkillfiled everyone.
>
> Good. That meant you had to read everything.
Why coem ot such a conclusion. Even with the killfiles off, I am still
sorting by sender and only reading the odd post.
G Schneider
saying:
"Too bad. But then......if all you want is solipsistic activity."
Then, at Thu Aug 31 16:07:02 2000 GMT
evagr...@my-deja.com
I thought that you've killfiled me. Still obsessed, eh?????
Sorright.
In article <39AEDDF2...@erols.com>,
oh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> At Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:53:25 GMT, Michel generalized about
James,
> saying:
>
> "Too bad. But then......if all you want is solipsistic activity."
This is not a generalized statement about James. It is a statement
about the type of NG James wants.
There's a subtle but effective difference. All it takes is a little
logical acumen.
>
> Then, at Thu Aug 31 16:07:02 2000 GMT
>
> evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Peters,
> >
> > I mention one book and you make a generalization about my reading.
> >
> > Interesting. H
And this is quite true. He did make a generalization about my reading.
Read his oroginal post. It mentions the N.Y. Times best-seller list. I
never consult that.
Now.......Ms. Schneider. Care to go another round????? :)
Rachael K.
<evagr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8omora$off$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Ms. Schneider,
>
>
> I thought that you've killfiled me. Still obsessed, eh?????
>
> Sorright.
Actually, Galina mentioned in another post that she took everybody out
of killfile. I do that myself, occasionally. <shrug>
~~R
G Schneider
evagr...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Ms. Schneider,
>
> I thought that you've killfiled me. Still obsessed, eh?????
Generalization not based on fact
>
> Sorright.
>
> In article <39AEDDF2...@erols.com>,
> oh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > At Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:53:25 GMT, Michel generalized about
> James,
> > saying:
> >
> > "Too bad. But then......if all you want is solipsistic activity."
>
> This is not a generalized statement about James. It is a statement
> about the type of NG James wants.
"all you want" WOULD seem to fall in that category
>
> There's a subtle but effective difference. All it takes is a little
> logical acumen.
and I suppose your sentence "All it takes is a little logical acumen> is
neither an insult implying I lack the same nor a baseless
generalization?
Galina
>
G Schneider
Yes, indeedy, Rachel the careful reader!