Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic)

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Agamemnon

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Nov 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/14/98
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Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic)

This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions, but also covers issues
that have arisen during our discussion in the group, so that visitors
and newcomers to the group can follow the discussions easier. I hope it
will be a useful primer.

In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for
food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption
of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the
Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution,
hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the
flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda
have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in
later negotiations.

The Embargo has recently been lifted but the reasoning behind it is
still relevant, and even more pressing since the assasination attempt
against FYROM's president.

But the foremost reason for this FAQ's existences is to reply to
irredentist aspirations, against Greece and its people, like the
following:


"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of Macedonia the
Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the INDEPENDENT Republic), and
Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be achieved in a peaceful manner, for
NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE OF THE MACEDONIANS TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN
STATE FREE OF FOREIGN RULE. Macedonia was divided among its neighbors in
1913; it's time it got reunified."


(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist,
posted in soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)

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CONTENTS


Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM
flag?
Why did Greece impose the embargo?
Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient
Macedons?
What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Appendix of FYROMian intransingence
Eponymous Propaganda on the Net

Other points of interest


The Macedonian Question by Maria Nystazopoulou
Macedonia by Nicholaos Martis
A report upon manufactured evidence used by NGOs on the subject of the "
Macedonians " of Greece
Infantile propaganda's compendium
More on Macedonia with pictures and referrences
A brief history of Ancient Macedonia
A brief history of Macedonia
An Essay on the Macedonian Affair , Much Juicier than this FAQ
The Vision of Greater Macedonia
Kings of Macedonia
Winners in the Olympics from Macedonia
N.G.L. Hammond's interview
Quotes From Ancient Texts
A couple of snippets from text books about the Greeks of India.
Greek Internet Radio
Henry Pozzi's.Black Hand Over Europe
Foster's Pictures From The Balkans
The Sweetest place in Macedonia
The two million oppressed " ethnic Macedonians " of Greece
Nazi colaborators in WWII Greece

The Karakasidou Case

Mrs. Karakasidou and the Cambridge University Press
More on the Karakasidou case from the ASA
Pf. Herzferld's Resignation Letter

Mail we have received

Hate Mail
Uninformed Mail

- This site's Statistics

Credits:

This site is not totally my work . It is the collective work of many
people throughout the world. Some of them are mentioned in the various
texts , but most are probably not.

Please note that there are many links inside this document that are
pointing to documents collected through USENET activity. These links are
here to emphasize a simple point. The modern inhabitants of FYROM are
rewritting history to suit their own needs, but in the process are
contradicting themselves in more than one points. Feel free to browse
around

For any comments or additions please contact the maintainer of this
site.

No hate mail please Hate mail only proves that you are too childish to
be taken seriously!

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1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just to
choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or offensive
to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols based on
International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross as their
flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to Florida, employ the
statue of Liberty as its flag and start propaganda that the Maine state
in the USA belongs to Cuba, by virtue of so many Cubans living there?)

Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto irredentist
strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping that the country,
will absorb the neighboring region.

Back to table of contents

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2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM
flag
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the birth of
our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that the Greek
mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language, culture, and
religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one league. At the
same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of its unity. And, in
this sense, we have never been apart since then. The `Sun' was excavated
in Greece in 1978, prior to that date this symbol never appeared in any
slavic motif anywhere on the planet, much less in any motif inside FYROM
even prior to its adoption by the current regime. This motif does appear
in many Greek buildings and paintings throughout the ages.

Back to table of contents

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3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years and
going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement the
partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.

Back to table of contents

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4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient
Macedonians?
We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to the
ancient Greeks of Macedonia . They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who
descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever
(ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).

Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the Great
in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian land was
part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize that the
punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as well as their
imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not necessarily
produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with boarders
extending to India. That would be most simplistic!

Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern Greek
borders.

Back to table of contents

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5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient
Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that they
need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians as Greek.
But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.

In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient
Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that
Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some 600
years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans. In any
case here is Alexander's Oath where he clearly states what he thinks he
and his compatriots are.

Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including the
discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek identity
of the ancient Macedonians categorically. We should mention that at
least as far back the the Fifth Century B.C. ,the kings of Macedonia
were hosting plays by playwrights of such prestige as Euripides.


Thousands ofitems, including columns, inscriptions,pottery, paint-
ings,icoins like the above, etc. can be found throughout the museums of
Macedonia. All without exception are of the Greek culture beyond any
doubt. To make this plain for the non history specialized individuals,
every single item's inscriptions are in Greek, every single name, on
every single item is Greek.

Even the scattered survivors of Alexander's expedition who still live in
western Afghanistan are identified, both by the indigenous people and by
themselves as Greeks without ambiguity. Of course a couple of snippets
from relevant text books about the Greeks of India are always useful.

The confusion that exists today about the Greekness of the ancient
Macedons is largely due to propaganda. Various people have taken ancient
texts out of context in trying to prove that the Ancient Macedons were
not Greek. Of course once the whole text comes to light, it becomes
quite clear that the elders thought of the Macedons as nothing but
Greeks.

Another point of interest is participation in the Olympics. It is quite
well known that the Macedons competed in the Olympics , where only Greek
peoples were allowed to participate.

As a quick test try to spot a non Greek name among the names of the
Kings of Macedonia Or alternatively you can read N.G.L. Hammond's
interview on the subject.

Back to table of contents

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6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The Macedonian
argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and their allies in
the region just prior to WWII, to create an independent greater
Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians have said that
Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying Macedonia (Greek) on
behalf of the Germans in WWII.

Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after WWII to
work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia (Greek) while we
were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the same people that now
live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the same propaganda has been
used as justification by different interests (Commintern, Bulgaria,
(S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or try to) Greece. Even today, just when
the name and flag were been adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and
Gligorof were talking about reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and
Bulgaria.

Back to table of contents

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7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of the
ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was called
Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now occupied by
FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.

The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial. Ex-Yugoslavs
will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians, Serbs, and
Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with a few
Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and
understand/speak "Macedonian".

In any case FYROM's president admitted publicly that the current
inhabitants of FYROM are slavs.

To quote your President Kiro Gligorov: "We are Slavs who came to this
area in the sixth century . . . we are not descendants of the ancient
Macedonians." ( President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov, from the Foreign
Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p.
35. )

Back to table of contents

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8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming that
Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we all
identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...

Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek). The
population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian (Greek)
same with other Greeks on this group. We don't have anything in common
with FYROM. We are Greek.Finally the recent Euro-Elections revealed only
with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM minority) 10,000! Not
fantasies of 1 million!

The latter can be found in the latest State Department report about the
Slavic minority of Greece.

Back to table of contents

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9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools for
years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian people
(Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian churches,
schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional dances and
songs.

The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same
name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches with the
same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural centers for their
minority, under a different name (than Macedonian). They have refused.

As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their nationality,
their minority in Greece cannot be recognized as such, since the same
name is used by the Greeks of Macedonia to describe themsleves for much
longer that the written history of any Slavic tribe.

Back to table of contents

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10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
There are two points of concern

In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure from the
" ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's
Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is that ASNOM had
called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other countries to unite
under Tito's rule.

Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to go
into here).

At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they have
no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in contradiction
with their preample, and it is to their benefit to rewrite those
articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in their Constitution.

Back to table of contents

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11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade FYROM.
Greece declined it.

FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria and
Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.

It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece has
the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential between
the two countries would only create problems for the richer one
(Greece).

Back to table of contents

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12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or otherwise.
However, considering that

a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;

b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in this
century to secure and defend its northern region (Macedonia);

c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;

d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near
future;

e) the FYROM is currently on a campaign to educate its youngsters on how
really "Macedonian" they are, by teaching revisionist history

The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an irredentist
name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to
establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.

Especially since the lifting of the embargo, the designations in the
FYROMIAN passports appear without the Greek cities marked as such,as if
these cities were part of FYROM. To add insult to injury the cities are
printed with the slavicized version of their name , i.e. Solun instead
of Thessaloniki, Ler instead of Florina etc.

The recent assasination attempt against the president of FYROM by
ultranationalists, on the wake of the signing of an agreement with
Greece, only enforces the belief that this newborn state is a cradle of
violence and instability.

It is very interesting to note that official FYROM circles have blamed
Bulgaria in this attempt ! It seems that this little country is
surrounded by enemies !

Back to table of contents

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13) Appendix:
All the above points are easily supported by availlable evidence, a
thimblefull of which appears below. The extent of propaganda unleashed
against Greece on this issue is simply staggering. FYROM is believed to
use the Soros development funds on an international smear campaign.

Collection of various FYROMian propaganda items.
Quotes:


"A major campaign will soon be underway to inform the rest of the
Balkans about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian people
in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and ENSLAVED after the
Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties, in their desire
to see a larger Macedonia, made no secret of their intention to bring
these territories back within the sovereign state, and do not hide their
determination that it is only a matter of days before the power of
Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia."

(Kiro Gligorov, interview in the periodical Nin, Feb. 1, 1991)


"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of Macedonia the
Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the INDEPENDENT Republic), and
Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be achieved in a peaceful manner, for
NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE OF THE MACEDONIANS TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN
STATE **FREE OF FOREIGN RULE**. Macedonia was divided among its
neighbors in 1913; it's time it got reunified."

(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist, posted in
soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)

Instances of the FYROMian misinformation campaign:


On 17 June 1990, the founding conference of VMRO-DPMNE (the 'Internal
Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation'), the extreme nationalist party
within the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia (SRM), adopted a
proclamation stating, inter alia, that it would "fight for a free,
autonomous and united Macedonia" within the framework of a prospective
"European federation " on the basis of "the Ilinden ideals". VMRO won
more seats than any other party at the elections in the SRM, with 37 out
of a total of 120.


Ljupce Georgievski, President of VMRO, has stated that he is "in favour
of the spiritual, intellectual and territorial unification of Macedonia"
(Borba, 31.12.90). On 7 November 1990 he had this to say: "The Macedonia
of Pirin, the Aegean and the Vardar is not Greater Macedonia: it is
simply Macedonia. We shall be talking of Greater Macedonia when we claim
Belgrade, Sofa, Thessaly, Valona and elsewhere".


During a tour of Canada, Vasil Tupurkovski-who represented Skopje in the
former collective Presidency of Yugoslavia-made the following statement
on television: "Europe has already proved that it can resolve the
question of unification among peoples, as happened in the case of
Germany. And if that can be done once in Europe, there is no reason why
Europe should hold itself aloof from the national ideals of a people
such as the Macedonian people ".


Asked by a journalist whether the Macedonians ought to struggle harder
for cultural and spiritual unification rather than territorial unity, he
replied: "I believe that the national ideal cannot be subjected to
constraints, and that it includes territorial unification ".


SRM deputy K. Petrov submitted a VMRO-supported proposal to the
Parliament of Skopje early in January 1991 calling for the adoption of a
declaration concerning the independence and sovereignty of the SRM and
for it to submit to the international organisations claims "for the
return of territories held by Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania,
which belong to the SRM by virtue of the fact that Macedonians live
there".


An extract from an article in the periodical Nin (1 February 1991): "The
new President of Macedonia, Kiro Gligorov, has stated that a major
campaign will soon be under way to inform the rest of the Balkans about
the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian people in Serbia,
Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and enslaved after the Balkan Wars.
The leading Macedonian nationalist parties, in their desire to see a
larger Macedonia, make no secret of their intention to bring these
territories back within the sovereign state, and do not hide their
determination that it is only a matter of days before the power of
Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia ".

Back to table of contents

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14) Eponymous Propaganda on the net:

Of course the above are but glances of the myriad fabrications and
historic falsifications that have seen the light of day. "Macedonians"
in Australia have actually printed fabricated history with no factual
base. And propaganda experts like Slavko Mangovski are heading whole
institutions that are devoted to the debasing and defamation of Greece
offline as well as on the net itself, which is proving to be very
useful, since many as yet unformed minds are browsing it daily.

Although there is ample printed evidence on the late day creation of the
so called "Macedonia Nation" , propaganda simply ignores the existence
of such evidence.

After all these failed attempts to conquer Macedonia ( the real one
inside Greece) , these people are now playing the much coveted
"Political Correctness" hand. I other words they are small and powerless
as a country therefore they are right in their claims. It does not
matter if in the past they were nazi collaborators practicing killing
sprees in northern Greece.

And of course let us not forget turn coats like Mrs. Karakasidou.

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After all history is but a book on a shelf !


But the propaganda does not stop there, being the very good Goebels
students that they are they even publish misquotations or partial quotes
from books like
Andre Vaillant on Macedonia
Grinevich. The one to read from if you are a Panslavist


Henry Pozzi's.Black Hand Over Europe


Foster's.Pictures From The Balkans

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http://web.ukonline.co.uk/argyros.argyrou/Macedon.htm

Never Say Never Again

unread,
Nov 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/15/98
to

Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic)

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Archeological finds from all over Macedonia from the museum of
Thessaloniki

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Thousands of items , including columns, inscriptions,pottery, paint-


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