What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in Hell ?
Aaron Kim
Chapter 11
THREE DEGREES OF GLORY
It has been said that the most enlightening revelation ever given to
mankind may be Section 76 in the Doctrine and Covenants (compilation of
"Thus saith the Lord" revelations written by the Prophet Joseph Smith). This
revelation explains and clarifies more about man's eternal destiny than any
other recorded revelation. It could easily put an end to the strange and
confusing precepts of men concerning heaven and hell.
Information in this chapter is divided into the following four categories:
(1) General, (2) Telestial, (3) Terrestrial, and (4) Celestial.
General
Joseph Smith: (TPJS, p. 311)
"But," says one, "I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go,
and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy."
What! where all are huddled together--the honorable, virtuous, and
murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged
according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three
glories and three heavens. He knew a man that was caught up to the third
heavens. Now, if the doctrine of the sectarian world, that there is but one
heaven, is true, Paul, what do you tell that lie for, and say there are
three? Jesus said unto His disciples, "In my Father's house are many
mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place
for you, and I will come and receive you to myself, that where I am ye may
be also."
* * * * *
[133] Brigham Young: (JD 8:154)
The sectarian world, as we call them, is a professed church of God without
the Priesthood. Sectarians have not the Priesthood; but all of them who live
according to the best light and intelligence they can obtain through
faithfulness to what they believe, as taught unto them, will receive a
kingdom and glory that will far transcend all their expectations,
imaginations, or visions in their most excited moments, whether in their
falling-down power, jumping power, or squawling power. All they have ever
desired or anticipated they will receive, and far more; but they cannot
dwell with the Father and Son, unless they go through these ordeals that are
ordained for the Church of the First born. The ordinances of the house of
God are expressly for the Church of the First born.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (JD 8:152-153)
I will read a portion of the vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had
concerning various kingdoms that God has prepared for his subjects: (See
Sec. 92:7 Doc. and Cov., the then current edition--1860. Now Sec.
76:96-113.)
I do not know that I have any particular desire to dwell upon this any more
than any other subject of the Gospel, although, this subject, in the
abstract, occupies more of my affection, adoration, and heartfelt gratitude
to our Father and God than any other that has ever been revealed to my
knowledge, from the days of Adam to the present. * * *
I can truly say that, in my estimation, no other revelation so glorious was
ever given. You may read the character of the Deity as portrayed in all that
has ever been revealed, until you come to this vision, in relation to his
justice, his judgment, his power, his life, his glory, his excellence, his
goodness, his mercy, and the fullness of every gift, of every trait, of
every principle inherent in the character of the Supreme Being, and it is
not equal in [134] magnitude, in my reflections, to that which God revealed
to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in the vision from which I have read.
We are far advanced in the things of the kingdom of God. To say nothing
about any other principle or doctrine that has ever been revealed, the
transcending glory, excellency, wisdom, goodness, virtue, and power that God
has revealed in this vision far outweigh all the Christian tenets,
doctrines, and systems they have drawn from the Bible. No cistern, to use a
figure, hewn by man, can hold water; and every human doctrine and principle,
professing to point the way of salvation, fades away. The doctrine God has
revealed here is more precious to me, and is worth more than all the
doctrines of Christendom.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (JD 17:159)
I expect one thing will be true that Joseph said when living. A gentleman
came to see him and asked him a great many questions, and among the rest he
said: "I suppose you calculate that you are just right, and that you
"Mormons" are all going to be saved and everybody else will be damned." Said
Joseph, "Sir, I will tell you this one thing, all the rest of the world will
be damned, and I expect that most of the "Mormons" will be unless they do
better than they have done." The man did not stop for an explanation. What
Joseph meant by being damned was that people will go into the spirit world
without the Priesthood, and consequently they are under the power of Satan,
and will have to be redeemed, or else they will be forever under his power.
That is all there is about that.
* * * * *
John Taylor: (JD 26:133, 1883)
We are told that if we cannot abide the law of the celestial kingdom we
cannot inherit a celestial glory. Is [135] not that doctrine? Yes. "But,"
says one, "are not we all going into the celestial kingdom?" I think not,
unless we turn round and mend our ways very materially. It is only those who
can abide a celestial glory and obey a celestial law that will be prepared
to enter a celestial kingdom. "Well," says another, "are the others going to
be burned up?" No. "Do you expect everybody to walk according to this higher
law?" No, I do not. And do I expect those that do not are going into the
celestial kingdom? No, I do not. "Well, where will they go?" If they are
tolerably good men and do not do anything very bad, they will get into a
terrestrial kingdom, and if there are some that cannot abide a terrestrial
law, they may get into the telestial kingdom, or otherwise, as the case may
be.
* * * * *
Parley P. Pratt: (Key to Theology, pp. 143-144)
The final state of man, though varying in almost infinite gradations and
rewards, adapted to his qualifications and deserts, and meted out in the
scale of exact justice and mercy, may be conceived or expressed under three
grand heads or principal spheres, viz.:
First. The Telestial, or least heaven, typified by the stars of the
firmament.
Secondly. The Terrestrial, or intermediate heaven, typified by the moon.
Thirdly. The Celestial, or third heaven, of which the sun of the firmament
is typical.
The qualifications which fit and prepare intelligences for these different
spheres or rewards are an all important consideration, and well worthy of
the sincere attention of all people.
These several kingdoms or degrees, and their comparative happiness, and
what characters are candidates for each degree, are revealed in a most
concise, clear, lucid and beautiful manner, in one of the visions of our
great Prophet and founder.
* * * * *
[136] Joseph Fielding Smith: (Doctrines of Salvation 2:287-288)
Elder Orson Pratt many years ago in writing of the resurrection and the
kind of bodies which would be raised in these kingdoms said:
"In every species of animals and plants, there are many resemblances in the
general outlines and many specific differences characterizing the
individuals of each species. So in the resurrection. There will be several
classes of resurrected bodies; some celestial, some terrestrial, some
telestial, and some sons of perdition. Each of these classes will differ
from the others by prominent and marked distinctions; yet, in each,
considered by itself there will be found many resemblances as well as
distinctions." * * *
Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the
terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of
procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these
kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to
be--neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the
resurrection.
* * * * *
Joseph Fielding Smith: (Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59, "Vision of
Redemption of the Dead")
The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances
of the house of God, and after they have paid the penalty of their
transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to
their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
* * * * *
[137] Telestial Kingdom
Times and Seasons: (p. 84)
These are they that deny not the spirit of God,
But are thrust down to hell, with the devil, for sins,
As hypocrites, liars, whoremongers, and thieves,
And stay 'till the last resurrection begins.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-90, 98-112:
And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the
lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the
moon in the firmament. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ,
neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost.
These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be
redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even
Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of
the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the
terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. And also the
telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to
minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them;
for they shall be heirs of salvation.
And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which
surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except him to whom God has
revealed it. * * *
And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is
one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one
from another in glory in the telestial world; for these are they who are of
Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of
one and some of another--some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses,
and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of
Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither
the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
[138] Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the
saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into
the cloud. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and
whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer
the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of
eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath
of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued
all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; when he shall
deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I
have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of
the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne
of his power to reign forever and ever. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory
and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as
the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; and
heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every
tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; for
they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive
according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are
prepared; and they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and
Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
* * * * *
Joseph Fielding Smith: (Doctrines of Salvation 2:297-298)
All liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers and all who love and make a lie,
shall not receive the resurrection at this time, but for a thousand years
shall be thrust down into hell where they shall suffer the wrath of God
until they pay the price of their sinning, if it is possible, by the things
which they shall suffer.
[139] These are the "spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found
under condemnation; And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not
again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of
the earth." (D. & C. 88:100-101)
These are the hosts of the telestial world who are condemned to "suffer the
wrath of God on earth"; and who are "cast down to hell and suffer the wrath
of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued
all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work." (D. & C.
76:104-106)
* * * * *
Orson Pratt: (JD 15:322)
Now let us come to still inferior glories. I have mentioned those who
inherit the glory of the stars. Who are they? They are not the heathen, for
they come up higher--into the terrestrial glory. Who are they, then, who are
permitted only to inherit a glory typified by the stars? They are the
general world of mankind, those who have heard the Gospel of the Son of God
but have not obeyed it. They are to be punished. How long? Until Jesus has
reigned here on the earth a thousand years. How much longer? Until the
"little season" has passed away after the end of the thousand years, and
then when the final end shall come and the trump of God shall sound, and the
great white throne shall appear and the heaven and the earth shall flee
away; when that time shall come, the sound of the trump shall call forth
those sleeping millions of all ages, generations and nations who have heard
the sound of the Gospel and have not obeyed it, but until then their bodies
must sleep. They are not worthy of the first resurrection.
* * * * *
[140] Terrestrial Kingdom
Times and Seasons: (p. 84)
These are they that are hon'rable men of the earth;
Who were blinded and dup'd by the cunning of men:
They receiv'd not the truth of the Savior at first;
But did, when they heard it in prison, again.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-79; 91, 97:
And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they
who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of
the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of
the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who
died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison,
whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be
judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of
Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the
craftiness of men. These are they who received of his glory, but not of his
fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of
the fulness of the Father.
Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and
differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. These are they who are not
valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over
the kingdom of our God. * * *
And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the
glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in
dominion. * * *
And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is
one.
* * * * *
[141] Cleon Skousen: (Imp. Era, July 1969, see pp. 72-75)
Verses 71-79 (of Section 76) state that if a person has an opportunity to
embrace the fullness of the gospel during earth life but postpones,
accepting it until he reaches the spirit world, then he cannot be an heir to
the celestial kingdom. He drops down to the next level, the terrestrial. Of
course, if a person never even hears the gospel until he reaches the spirit
world (and that has been the case with the majority of mankind), then he can
accept it in the spirit world without any penalty, provided he would have
accepted it in the flesh. In due time the ordinance work will be done for
him vicariously (such as baptism for the dead referred to by Paul in 1
Corinthians 15:29), and then that person will be resurrected to the
celestial glory just as though he had accepted the gospel while in earth
life.
* * * * *
Joseph Fielding Smith: (Doctrines of Salvation 2:296-297)
Following this great event, and after the Lord and the righteous who are
caught up to meet him have descended upon the earth, there will come to pass
another resurrection. This may be considered as a part of the first,
although it comes later. In this resurrection will come forth those of the
terrestrial order, who were not worthy to be caught up to meet him, but who
are worthy to come forth to enjoy the millennial reign.
It is written that the second angel shall sound, which is the second trump,
"and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who
have received their part in the prison which is prepared for them, that they
might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh." (D.
& C. 76:73-75)
This other class, which will also have right to the first resurrection, are
those who are not members of the Church of the Firstborn, but who have led
honorable lives, although they refused to accept the fulness of the gospel.
[142] Also in this class will be numbered those who died without law and
hence are not under condemnation for a violation of the commandments of the
Lord. The promise is made to them of redemption from death in the following
words: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew
no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable
for them." (D. & C. 45:54) These, too, shall partake of the mercies of the
Lord and shall receive the reuniting of spirit and body inseparably, thus
becoming immortal, but not with the fulness of the glory of God.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (Contributor 11:87)
With your mind's eye look at the millions of them in all nations who are
doing according to the best knowledge they possess. What! the Roman
Catholics? Yes, and then every one of her daughters down to the latest
Protestant Church that has been organized. They are all doing just as well
as they can, and living according to the best light they have--a great many
of them, though not all. What shall we do with them? They pass from the
world, their spirits go into the spiritual world, and their bodies go back
to their mother earth, and there sleep while their spirits are before the
Lord.
Are they happy? Every son and daughter of Adam who live according to the
best light and knowledge they have, when they go into the spiritual world,
are happy in proportion to their faithfulness. For instance, take a view of
some of our late reformers; take the best specimen of reformers that we
have, who are all the time full of glory and happiness and full of praise to
the Lord--who meet together oft to sing and pray and preach and shout and
give thanks to the Lord Almighty; and in a great many instances and in a
great degree they enjoy much of a good spirit, which is the Spirit of the
Lord, or the light of Christ, which lighteth the world.
Now, this may be singular to some. What! they enjoy the Spirit of the Lord?
Yes, every man and woman, ac-[143]cording to their faith and the knowledge
they have in their possession. They enjoy the goodness of their Father in
heaven. Do they receive the Spirit of the Lord? They do, and enjoy the light
of it, and walk in it, and rejoice in it.
What will be their state hereafter? Every faithful Methodist that has lived
up to and faithfully fulfilled the requirements of his religion, according
to the best light he had, doing good to all and evil to none, injuring no
person upon the earth, honoring his God as far as he knew, will have as
great a heaven as he ever anticipated in the flesh, and far greater. Every
Presbyterian, and every Quaker, and every Baptist, and every Roman Catholic
member--every reformer, of whatever class or grade, that lives according to
the best light they have, and never have had an opportunity of receiving a
greater light than the one in their possession, will have and enjoy all they
live for.
I am telling you the truth as it is, and you may write it down if you
please, and call it revelation if you will. But it has been revealed before
I revealed it here to-day. This is the situation of Christendom after death.
You may go among the Pagans, or among all the nations there are, and they
have their religion, their sacraments and ceremonies, which are as sacred to
them as ours are to us; they are just as precious and dear to them, though
we call them heathen. They are idolatrous worshippers; yet their religion is
as sacred to them as ours is to us. If they live according to the best light
they have in their religion, God is God over all and the Father of us all;
we are all the workmanship of His hands; and if they are ignorant, filled
with superstition, and have the traditions of the fathers interwoven like a
mantle around and over them, that they cannot see any light, so will they be
judged; and if they have lived according to what they did possess, so they
will receive hereafter.
And will it be glory? you may inquire. Yes. Glory, glory, glory to our
merciful Father in heaven; for the least glory is so great and so exquisite
that it is altogether beyond mortal perception.
* * * * *
[144] Orson Pratt: (JD 15:322)
But how about these terrestrials, can they come up into the celestial? No,
their intelligence and knowledge have not prepared and adapted them to dwell
with those who reign in celestial glory, consequently they cannot even be
angels in that glory. They have not obeyed the law that pertains to that
glory, and hence they could not abide it. But will there be blessings
administered to them by those who dwell in celestial glory? Yes, angels will
be sent forth from the celestial world to minister to those who inherit the
glory of the moon, bearing messages of joy and peace and of all that which
is calculated to exalt, to redeem and ennoble those who have been
resurrected into a terrestrial glory. They can receive the Spirit of the
Lord there, and the ministration of angels there.
* * * * *
Celestial Kingdom
Times and Seasons: (p. 84)
They are they, of the church of the first born of God,-
And unto whose hands he committeth all things;
For they hold the keys of the kingdom of heav'n, And reign with the Savior,
as priests, and as kings.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:50-70; 92-96
And again we bear record--for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony
of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the
resurrection of the just--
They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name
and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water
in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given--That
by keeping the commandments they might [145] be washed and cleansed from all
their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him
who is ordained and sealed unto this power; and who overcome by faith, and
are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon
all those who are just and true.
They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose
hands the Father has given all things--They are they who are priests and
kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests
of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order
of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of
God--Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things
present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ
is God's. And they shall overcome all things.
Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who
shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence
of God and his Christ forever and ever.
These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the
clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. These are they who
shall have part in the first resurrection. These are they who shall come
forth in the resurrection of the just. These are they who are come unto
Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the
holiest of all.
These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the
general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. These are they
whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of
all.
These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of
the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the
shedding of his own blood. These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose
glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose
glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical. * * *
[146] And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all
things--where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory
forever and ever. They who dwell in his presence are the church of the
Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having
received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power,
and in might, and in dominion. And the glory of the celestial is one, even
as the glory of the sun is one.
* * * * *
Joseph Smith: ("Vision of the Celestial Kingdom", D.H.C. 2:380-381; TPJS, p.
107; D. & C. 137:1-10)
The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God,
and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the
transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will
enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne
of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful
streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother,
Alvin, that has long since slept, and marvelled how it was that he had
obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this
life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and
had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the Voice of the Lord unto me, saying--All who have died without
a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been
permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all
that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received
it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord,
will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of
their hearts.
[147] And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the
years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
* * * * *
Joseph Fielding Smith: (Doctrines of Salvation 2:296)
In modern revelation given to the Church, the Lord has made known more in
relation to this glorious event. There shall be at least two classes which
shall have the privilege of the resurrection at this time: First, those who
"shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever"; (D. &
C. 76:62) and second, honorable men, those who belong to the terrestrial
kingdom as well as those of the celestial kingdom.
At the time of the coming of Christ, "They who have slept in their graves
shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be
caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven--They are
Christ's, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they
who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet
him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of
God." (D. & C. 88:97-98) These are the just, "whose names are written in
heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all. These are they who are
just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who
wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood."
(D. & C. 76:68-69)
* * * * *
Parley P. Pratt: (Key to Theology, pp. 168-170)
To contemplate man in his true light, we must, as it were, forget that
death is in his path; we must look upon him as an eternal, ever-living
being, possessing spirit, flesh and bones, with all the mental and physical
organs, and all the affections and sympathies which characterize [148] him
in this world. Or, rather, all his natural affections and sympathies will be
purified, exalted and immeasurably increased.
Let the candidate for celestial glory forget, for a moment, the groveling
sphere of his present existence, and make the effort to contemplate himself
in the light of eternity, in the higher spheres of his progressive
existence, beyond the grave, a pure spirit, free from sin and guile,
enlightened in the school of heaven, by observation and experience, and
association with the highest order of intelligences, for thousands of years,
and clothed with immortal flesh, in all the vigor, freshness and beauty of
eternal youth, alike free from pain, disease, death, and the corroding
effects of time, looking back through the vista of far distant years, and
contemplating his former sojourn amid the sorrows and pains of mortal life,
his passage through the dark valley of death and his sojourn in the spirit
world, as we now contemplate a transient dream, or a night of sleep, from
which we have awakened, renewed and refreshed, to enter again upon the
realities of life.
O candidates for celestial glory! Would your joys be full in the countless
years of eternity without forming the connections, the relationship, the
kindred ties which concentrate in the domestic circle, and branch forth, and
bud and blossom, and bear the fruits of eternal increase? * * *
Or, would you, like your heavenly Father, prompted by eternal benevolence
and charity, wish to fill countless millions of worlds with your begotten
sons and daughters, and to bring them through all the gradations of
progressive being, to inherit immortal bodies and eternal mansions in your
several dominions?
If such be your aspirations, remember that this present probation is the
world of preparation for joys eternal. This is the place where family
organization is first formed for eternity, and where the kindred sympathies,
relationships and affections take root, spring forth, shoot upward, bud,
blossom and bear fruit to ripen and mature in eternal ages.
* * * * *
[149] Orson Pratt: (The Seer, p. 37)
The celestial beings who dwell in the Heaven from which we came, having
been raised from the grave in a former world, and having been filled with
all the fulness of these eternal attributes, are called Gods, because the
fulness of God dwells in each. Both the males and the females enjoy this
fulness. The celestial vegetables and fruits which grow out of the soil of
this redeemed Heaven, constitute the food of the Gods. This food differs
from the food derived from the vegetables of a fallen world; the latter are
converted into blood, which, circulating in the veins and arteries, produces
flesh and bones of a mortal nature, having a constant tendency to decay;
while the former, or celestial vegetables, are, when digested in the
stomach, converted into a fluid, which, in its nature, is spiritual, and
which, circulating in the veins and arteries of the celestial male and
female, preserves their tabernacles from decay and death. Earthly vegetables
form blood, and blood forms flesh and bones; celestial vegetables, when
digested, form a spiritual fluid which gives immortality and eternal life to
the organization in which it flows.
Fallen beings beget children whose bodies are constituted of flesh and
bones, being formed out of the blood circulating in the veins of the
parents. Celestial beings beget children, composed of the fluid which
circulates in their veins, which is spiritual; therefore, their children
must be spirits, and not flesh and bones. This is the origin of our
spiritual organization in heaven. The spirits of all mankind, destined for
this earth, were begotten by a father, and born of a mother in Heaven, long
anterior to the formation of this world. The personages of the father and
mother of our spirits, had a beginning to their organization, but the
fulness of truth (which is God) that dwells in them, had no beginning; being
"from everlasting to everlasting." (Psalm 90:2)
* * * * *
[150] Orson Pratt: (JD 19:176)
The Saints then will be resurrected, and they will also be the inhabitants
of this globe. They are singing about it in heaven, while their bodies are
sleeping in the grave. Read the 5th chapter of John's Revelations, that will
give you an idea what the Saints of heaven anticipate. The words of the new
song which John heard them sing, were: "Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation. And
hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and we shall reign on the
earth!" How plain! "We shall reign on the earth!" They hope for it; they
sing about it; they expect it, just as much as we hope to go with them, and
mingle with them, and just as much as we have faith that we will, when we
lay our bodies down in the grave, go to our former abode where we once were,
to the mansions prepared, and that we will join with the heavenly hosts. We
will not forget the earth; it is our native abode; but instead of forgetting
it, we will join with them in their new song, and with them we will look
forward with joyful anticipation to the day when we shall return to reign on
the earth, having been made kings and priests unto our God.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (JD 15:137)
And when our spirits receive our bodies, and through our faithfulness we
are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both
spirit and body. But these keys we cannot receive in the flesh. Herein,
brethren, you can perceive that we have not finished, and cannot finish our
work, while we live here, no more than Jesus did while he was in the flesh.
We cannot receive, while in the flesh, the keys to form and fashion
kingdoms and to organize matter, for they are beyond our capacity and
calling, beyond this world. In the resurrection, men who have been faithful
and [151] diligent in all things in the flesh, have kept their first and
second estate, and worthy to be crowned Gods, even the sons of God, will be
ordained to organize matter.
* * * * *
Doctrine and Covenants: 131:1-4
In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to
obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood
(meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage); and if he does not,
he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his
kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
* * * * *
Cleon Skousen: (Imp. Era, July 1969, see pp. 72-75)
Modern revelation has further disclosed that the celestial kingdom is
divided into three heavens or degrees. (D. & C. 131:1) To attain the highest
degree, one must be married for time and eternity by the power of God's holy
priesthood. (D. & C. 131:2-3) Only those who qualify for this highest
discipline enjoy a continuing family relationship in the eternal worlds. (D.
& C. 132:19) And only those who qualify for this level will have the
privilege of being tutored to follow in the footsteps of the Father and
share in his infinite power. (D. & C. 132:20) To these the Father says he
will give "all things." Then the scripture adds, "They are they who are
priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory. . . .
Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God." (D. & C.
76:55-56, 58)
* * * * *
Orson Pratt: (JD 21:292)
But here arises another question,--one of the greatest importance to the
children of men of all generations, and that is, are there any marriages
that God will recognize which he is not the author of? In other words,
sup-[152]posing that two persons in the Roman Catholic church, in the Greek
church, in any Protestant church, or two persons that do not belong to any
religious denomination, are married by a minister, by a justice of the
peace, by any person professing to have authority among men, to celebrate
the marriage ceremony--have they any claim upon each other when death
separates them? According to their own covenants they do not. The minister
only married them till death should them part. When death comes along and
separates these two persons, their marriage covenant has expired; it has run
out, it is at an end. But, inquires one, will not the Lord permit them to
live together as husband and wife, after the resurrection? Why should he? If
he had joined them together, according to the marriage ceremony that was
administered to the first pair of immortality, then they could claim each
other, after the resurrection; but inasmuch as the ceremony was performed by
an uninspired man, not sent of God, and having no power to seal on earth
that it should be sealed in heaven, of course their marriage covenant
expires; that is the eternal end of their association. Now, the Latter-day
Saints are not willing to go according to the tradition of the sectarian
denominations of the earth; but we desire this great, this important
ceremony to be performed so that it may be enduring, so that it never shall
have an end, but last while eternal ages shall last.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (JD 16:166)
Now, where a man in this Church says, "I don't want but one wife, I will
live my religion with one," he will perhaps be saved in the celestial
kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of
any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come
forward and say, "Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it,
and here is the one talent," and he will not enjoy it, but it will be taken
and given to those who have improved the talents they received, and he will
find himself without any wife, and he will remain [153] single forever and
ever. But if the woman is determined not to enter into a plural marriage,
that woman when she comes forth will have the privilege of living in single
blessedness through all eternity.
* * * * *
Charles W. Penrose: (JD 25:227)
. . . but shall wed under the everlasting covenant and have their wives
given them of the Lord and sealed to them by an holy ordinance revealed from
heaven, in a holy place prepared for the purpose--sealed for time and all
eternity, so that death shall not be able to break the bond of union; that
though death may separate them for a little season, when they come up in the
resurrection, there will be no need to marry or give in marriage, because
they were married on the earth by authority of God Almighty for time and all
eternity, ...
* * * * *
Orson Pratt: (JD 15:252)
Another question. Having been married for eternity, we die and our spirits
go into celestial paradise. We come forth in the morning of the first
resurrection as immortal males and immortal females. Our wives, married to
us for eternity, come forth, and they are ours by virtue of that which God
has pronounced upon them through those whom he has appointed, and to whom he
has given authority. We have a legal claim upon them at the resurrection.
But here comes forth a person that is married outside. She comes up without
a husband, he without a wife, or any claim upon any of the blessings. Here
is the difference between these two classes of beings. One dwells as an
angel, without any power to increase their species, family or dominions,
without the power to beget sons and daughters. This class will be angels.
Perhaps many of them will be worthy of obtaining a degree of power, glory,
and happiness, but not a fullness. Why? Because they have not come up to
[154] that position of their Father and their God. He has power to beget and
bring forth sons and daughters in the spirit world; and after he has brought
forth millions and millions of spirits, he has power to organize worlds, and
send these spirits into these worlds to take temporal bodies to prepare them
in turn to be redeemed and become Gods, or in other words, the sons of God,
growing up like their father, possessing all his attributes, and propagating
their species through all eternity. Here then is the difference between
these two classes of beings--one having lost what they might have obtained
and enjoyed if they had had faith in God and been willing to obey his
commandments. But the others are worthy, as the Apostle Paul has said, to
obtain a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while the others
will be angels or servants, to go and come at the bidding of those who are
more exalted.
* * * * *
Joseph Smith: (TPJS, p. 312)
Gods have an ascendancy over the angels, who are ministering servants. In
the resurrection, some are raised to be angels, others are raised to become
Gods.
* * * * *
Orson Pratt: (JD 15:319)
. . . I wish more particularly to inquire concerning the nature of this
higher state of glory called celestial. Will there be any difference among
those who are redeemed into that glory? There will, in some respects. They
will all be equal in the enjoyment of some blessings, and so far their glory
will be the same, but yet in some respects there will be a difference. Some
who will inherit a portion of that glory will have no families; they will be
deprived of that blessing to all ages of eternity, while others will receive
an exaltation and kingdom, and will have wives, children, dominion,
greatness and power far above those I first referred to.
[155] Now why should there be this distinction in the celestial kingdom, and
what is the cause of it? It is because certain persons who have obeyed the
Gospel have become careless and indifferent in regard to securing that high
exaltation which was within their reach. God has revealed to this people
what is needful for an exaltation in his kingdom. He has revealed to us that
marriage is destined for eternity as well as time,--that the marriage
covenant between male and female must be entered into in this life, and the
ordinance performed here by those whom God has appointed and ordained to
hold the keys and authority to seal on earth that it may be sealed in
heaven; for in heaven there is neither marrying nor giving in marriage, no
such thing can be attended to there. Now persons among the Latter-day Saints
who do not enter into this covenant of marriage but prefer to lead a single
life cannot enjoy all that fullness of exaltation which will be possessed by
those who have had this covenant sealed upon them. They might not have
forfeited the blessing of celestial glory altogether, but they have
forfeited the right to have wives by which only they could have a posterity
in the eternal worlds. Who will be the subjects in the kingdom which they
will rule who are exalted in the celestial kingdom of our God? Will they
reign over their neighbors' children? Oh no. Over whom then will they reign?
Their own children, their own posterity will be the citizens of their
kingdoms; in other words, the patriarchal order will prevail there to the
endless ages of eternity, and the children of each patriarch will be his
while eternal ages roll on.
* * * * *
Franklin D. Richards: (JD 25:233-235)
He <Christ> taught the doctrine of the resurrection, saying that He was the
resurrection and the life, and that the day will come when all they that are
in their graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth. It was because He
taught this doctrine that the Sadducees sought to entangle and confuse Him
concerning this principle by bringing up the case of the woman who married a
man and he [156] died without any children; then because he died childless
she married his brother, which was according to the law of Moses. He also
died without children, and so on, each of the brothers marrying her, until
the seven brothers had her to wife, and last of all the woman died also.
These Sadducees did not believe in any resurrection, and they thought to be
very crafty with the Savior, so they put the question squarely to Him:
"Therefore in the resurrection, whose wife shall she be of the seven? for
they all had her." They evidently thought they had caught the Savior then;
but He replied to them saying: "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor
the power of God." Now, who was He talking to? He was speaking to those
Sadducees who denied there being any resurrection; who lived
contemporaneously with the seven men and this woman who had lived and died
among them. He was talking to a race of people to whom John the Baptist had
come, and many had received his testimony; but these had not.
* * * It was to this class of people, who were living under these
circumstances, that He makes the answer saying, "For in the resurrection
they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God
in heaven." Luke the Evangelist, stating this case in his 20th chapter,
says: "The children of this world marry and are given in marriage, but they
which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection
from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they
die any more; for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of
God, being the children of the resurrection." * * *
Had they hearkened to the Prophets, the Apostles, the words of the Savior,
and received the everlasting covenant, they would have been made heirs of
God and joint heirs with our Lord Jesus Christ, and would have been made
heirs of the celestial world, with power to increase eternally, being Gods,
even the sons of God, but now that they would not receive the Gospel, the
Prophets, nor the everlasting covenant which they might have received, they
can only become as the angels in heaven, who in that world neither marry,
nor are given in marriage, but are equal to the angels in heaven.
* * * * *
[157] Orson Pratt: (JD 16:177)
Says one--"What are you going to do with that Scripture which says that in
the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage?" I am going
to let it stand precisely as it is, without the least alteration. A man who
is so foolish as to neglect the divine ordinance of marriage for eternity,
here in this world, and does not secure to himself a wife for all eternity,
will not have the opportunity of doing so in the resurrection; for Jesus
says, that after the resurrection there is neither marrying nor giving in
marriage. It is an ordinance that pertains to this world, and here it must
be attended to; and parties neglecting it wilfully, here in this life,
deprive themselves of the blessings of that union forever in the world to
come. It is so with regard to baptism. We are bringing up these two divine
ordinances to show you how they harmonize. A man who, in this life, hears
the Gospel and knows that it is his duty to be baptized in order that he may
come forth in the morning of the resurrection with a celestial, glorified
body, like unto that of our Lord Jesus Christ, and neglects baptism and dies
without attending to the ordinance, cannot be baptized himself after the
resurrection of the dead, any more than he can be married after the
resurrection of the dead. Why not? Because God has appointed that both
marriage and baptism shall be attended to in the flesh, and if neglected
here, the blessings are forfeited.
* * * * *
Parley P. Pratt: (Key to Theology, pp. 180-181)
"And after death, in distant spheres
The union still renew."
The eternal union of the sexes, in and after the resurrection, is mainly
for the purpose of renewing and continuing the work of procreation. In our
present or rudimental state, our offspring are in our own image and partake
of our natures, in which are the seeds of death. In [158] like manner will
the offspring of immortal and celestial beings be in the likeness and
partake of the nature of their divine parentage. Hence, such offspring will
be pure, holy, incorruptible and eternal. They will in no wise be subject
unto death, except by descending to partake of the grosser elements, in
which are the inherent properties of dissolution or death.
To descend thus and to be made subject to sorrow, pain and death, is the
only road to the resurrection and to the higher degrees of immortality and
eternal life. It is by contrast that intelligences appreciate and enjoy. How
shall the sweet be known without the bitter? How shall joy be appreciated
without sorrow? Or, how shall life be valued, or its eternal duration
appreciated, without a contact with its mortal antagonist, death?
Hence, the highest degrees of eternal felicity are approached by the strait
gate and the narrow path which leads through the dark valley of death, to
eternal mansions in the realms of endless life. This path has been trodden
by the Eternal Father, by His Son, Jesus Christ, and by all the sons and
daughters of God who are exalted to a fullness of joys celestial.
* * * * *
Brigham Young: (JD 6:275)
After man have got their exaltations and their crowns--have become Gods,
even the sons of God--are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have
the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first
of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given
to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of
tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam
will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to
commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and
continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this
grosser matter is diffused sufficiently [159] through their celestial bodies
to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal
tabernacles for their spiritual children.
This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God;
but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my
father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not
prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I
have not a father.
* * * * *
Orson Pratt: (JD 15:220)
The increase of those who are exalted in that kingdom will endure forever;
and the bringing forth of children will not be attended with sorrow, pain
and distress as it is here: these evils have come in consequence of the fall
of man and the transgression by him of God's holy laws. But when men are
redeemed to immortality and eternal life, there will be no pain, sorrow or
affliction of body, and yet children will be brought forth, and to their
increase there will be no end. Hence the promise of God to the patriarchs
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their seed should be as numerous as the stars
of heaven, or as the sands upon the sea shore. We all know that the sand on
the sea shore is innumerable to us. If we take a handful it numbers in tens
of thousands of grains, and if Abraham's seed are to become as numerous as
the sands on the sea shore, they will fill a great many worlds like this of
ours. There is to be no end to the increase of the old Patriarch, and, as
his posterity increases, world on world will be created and brought into
existence, and those children will be sent forth from the presence of the
Patriarch to take upon themselves bodies, as we have done here in this
world. I mean their spirits. Understand me now, resurrected parents are the
parents not of bodies of flesh and bones, but of spirits the same as we were
before we came and took these mortal bodies, that is, when we lived up in
yonder world in the presence of our Father, and in the [160] company of the
thousands of millions of our brother and sister spirits. They will be of the
same class and nature, and they will have to take their position in worlds
that will be created for them the same as we came from heaven to this world,
that we might gain knowledge and experience that we could not gain in any
other way. Thus will the Lord continue his work and purposes, and there will
be one eternal round in creation, and redemption, in the formation and
redemption of worlds, and bringing them back into his presence.
* * * * *
<Note: Further recommended reading on this subject--Orson Pratt's discourse,
JD 15:312-324.>
* * * * *
--
Listen to Zion Redemption Radio hosted by Art Bulla and Aaron Kim on Sunday
from 3 to 4 (pst). Just go to
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?host_id=3513 All are invited to
call in live, email at a...@artbulla.com, or by MSM artb...@hotmail.com.
This show is dedicated to the redemption of Zion, revelations of Jesus
Christ, authority, Priesthood, Kingdom of God, doctrine discussed pertaining
to the salvation of Ephraim and Manasseh. During non broadcast hours you can
also listen to archived shows.
My Testimony of a Living Prophet:
http://www.artbulla.com/zion/Aaron's%20Page.html
Aaron Kim
<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>
> "The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
> Chapter 11
>
> THREE DEGREES OF GLORY
>
> It has been said that the most enlightening revelation ever given to
> mankind may be Section 76 in the Doctrine and Covenants (compilation of
> "Thus saith the Lord" revelations written by the Prophet Joseph Smith).
<snip remaining cultic doctrine and teaching>
Joseph Smith was no prophet - rather, he was a charlatan, a huckster,
and a fraud. Those that have fallen for his false "gospel" and
counterfeit "christian" religion does not surprise - for as it says in
Ecclesiastes chapter 1, verse 9:
"That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been
done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the
sun."
Aaron Kim
"<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"
<kasey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190164084....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 18, 3:42 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>> "The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>> Chapter 11
>>
>> THREE DEGREES OF GLORY
>>
>> It has been said that the most enlightening revelation ever given
>> to
>> mankind may be Section 76 in the Doctrine and Covenants (compilation of
>> "Thus saith the Lord" revelations written by the Prophet Joseph Smith).
>
> <snip remaining cultic doctrine and teaching>
>
> Joseph Smith was no prophet - rather, he was a charlatan, a huckster,
> and a fraud. Those that have fallen for his false "gospel" and
> counterfeit "christian" religion does not surprise - for as it says in
> Ecclesiastes chapter 1, verse 9:
The only charlatan is your sectarian ministers like Billy Graham and the
Pope and all your evangelists who build themselves up without building up
the Kingdom of God. It's your false ministers who preach that God does not
speak to us anymore as He did anciently which is no where supported in the
scriptures but God always has Prophets.
<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>
> The only charlatan is your sectarian ministers like Billy Graham and the
> Pope and all your evangelists who build themselves up without building up
> the Kingdom of God. It's your false ministers who preach that God does not
> speak to us anymore as He did anciently which is no where supported in the
> scriptures but God always has Prophets.
Hmmm...got a reference to cite where Billy Graham or any other
"sectarian ministers" or evangelists have said specifically "God does
not speak to us anymore"?
I bet you can't come up with one.
walksalone
news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com pretended to not be the
village idiot but the following shows otherwise.
From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestu
dy,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.
religion.christianity
Subject: Re: What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They
Burn in Hell ?
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:07:23 -0700
Message-ID: <di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com>
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> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com>
> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>"The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>>Chapter 11
>
> RE: Your question:
>
> What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in
> Hell ?
>
> Answer: "Not necessarily."
Necessarily, is the claim of your missing messiah that those the do not
follow him and proclaim him board would never enter onto heaven.
> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>
> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
Nice try at misdirection, according to the Hebrew Bible, they are in sheol.
That was the common fate for everybody that died prior to the Babylonian
vacation.
> Is Joshua in hell? Is Jeremiah? Is Noah? Is Jonah?
> Is Ruth? Is Esther?
You don't know, Jeremiah, probably, remain for never having heard of heaven
or hell, remained in sheol. Of course, to find that out would require you
to have knowledge about the Hebrew Bible. Instead of the Greek Testament,
then you can speak from a base of knowledge instead of making special
pleading in demanding special exceptions, that the Hebrew Bible does not
support.
> No. They're all in heaven.
No, they are not. For you claim so means it's your private interpolation,
which is pretty much everybody knows is anything except scriptural.
But nobody expects much better from you, for a biblical scholar ™ you are
not, even though you pretend to be.
> NONE of them lived long enough (or even in the right century) to
> have heard Jesus preach the gospel, or to have heard any of the
> apostles.
But they heard of yahwee and followed his word. Something you will never
understand is that your missing messiah does not triumph the God of the
Judea. For a Judean, there was only one god and its not yours. You don't
get to make the rules for god. Even though you pretend, you can.
> So there MUST be some middle ground to "You MUST have heard the
> gospel preached by Christ.
There is no middle ground and for you to pretend that there is, is for you
to demand an exception to the Word of god. You lack the authority, you
lack a lot, but the authority. You certainly do lack.
> The answer is right there in the Bible. You just have to look.
And twist, and redefine, and redefine, in redefining, and redefined, etc..
Nowhere is such a concept forwarded in the only true scripture, the Hebrew
Bible. You do not understand enough basic history or societal dynamics
before you can even begin to understand why this is so.
> And you don' t need the Book of Mormon or the NWT in order to find
> that answer.
No, all you need is the Hebrew Bible, according to it, we realize that
there is no messiah, and therefore, the Greek Testament is null and void.
To anybody is a serious student of first century Judea. However, your
fantasy world requires such a missing event. And you are welcome to it.
> john w
Which John W., the great wannabe Johnny? Or the one that pretends to be a
scholar ™. Even though he has not a clue as to what they actually do or
how they do it. You may as well, pretend to be a scholar or a xian. It
makes no difference in the long run.
I noticed your vanity would not permit you to do the right thing and remove
text. You cannot reply to, or will not reply to. I lack that vanity, and
I will do so now.
walksalone who has to wonder, is it that Johnny finds trolls irresistible,
or is it he finds chance to pretend to be a defender of the faith
irresistible. Either way he's comical.
More scholarship™ from Johnny, or at least he thinks so.
36167945...@hotmail.com
You are mixing apples and oranges. The 1st Chapter tells the order of
creation.the 2nd does not. After God gave us the order of Creation in
chapter
1, He went
on to make other points. Chapter 2 and beyond.
Reuben Hick
news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>Chapter 11
>
>
> What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in
>
> Answer: "Not necessarily."
>
> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>
> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
How do you know this?
Acts 13:36
"For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell
on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:"
>
> Is Joshua in hell? Is Jeremiah? Is Noah? Is Jonah?
> Is Ruth? Is Esther?
>
> No. They're all in heaven.
How do you know this?
Do you have a way to see in to heaven and enumerate all who are there ?
Are you just projecting your wishes?
Or is there some actual doctrine to support the assertion?
> > NONE of them lived long enough (or even in the right century) to
> have heard Jesus preach the gospel, or to have heard any of the
> apostles.
>
> So there MUST be some middle ground to "You MUST have heard the
> gospel preached by Christ.
Middle Ground = "Jesus is not required for salvation".
So this is where your "faith" has taken you to - you reject Jesus Christ as
LORD and Savior and allow for an unspecified "middle ground" that, for all
you know may be Islam, Mormanism, Humanism or any other random religious
teaching.
> The answer is right there in the Bible. You just have to look.
>
> And you don' t need the Book of Mormon or the NWT in order to find
> that answer.
Then why do you reject the Bible that you just recommended and make up a
fictious "Middle Ground"?
Reuben Hick
news:5ldgr6F...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"
> <kasey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190164084....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 18, 3:42 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>>> "The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>>> Chapter 11
>>>
>>> THREE DEGREES OF GLORY
>>>
>>> It has been said that the most enlightening revelation ever
>>> given to
>>> mankind may be Section 76 in the Doctrine and Covenants (compilation of
>>> "Thus saith the Lord" revelations written by the Prophet Joseph Smith).
>>
>> <snip remaining cultic doctrine and teaching>
>>
>> Joseph Smith was no prophet - rather, he was a charlatan, a huckster,
>> and a fraud. Those that have fallen for his false "gospel" and
>> counterfeit "christian" religion does not surprise - for as it says in
>> Ecclesiastes chapter 1, verse 9:
>
> The only charlatan is your sectarian ministers like Billy Graham and the
> Pope and all your evangelists who build themselves up without building up
> the Kingdom of God. It's your false ministers who preach that God does not
> speak to us anymore as He did anciently which is no where supported in the
> scriptures but God always has Prophets.
The problem here is that the Bible provides a mechanism for qualifying
prophets. Joseph Smith failed that test, so either the Scriptural test is
bogus and the Bible is not trustworthy, or Joesph Smith is a liar and
charlatan. Rather, by any objective inspection in the matter, Joseph Smith
perfectly fits the Scriptural caution regarding false prophets. If you
wish to follow a fraud into Hell, that is your business.
Furthermore, Billy Graham does not or did he ever pass himself off as a
prophet who felt himself to be at liberty to invent Revelation that others
were supposed to blindly accept as the authoratative as the Word of God.
And last, the Roman Catholic Religion is not Christian, it is Roman
Catholicism, so it really doesn't matter what the Pope thinks or what people
think of the Pope.
Your playground comparison is therefore sophomoric and illegitimate - to
suggest that Joseph Smith, a historical figure long dead, is validated
because of your mischaracterization of Billy Graham and the Papal office
held by many men over many centuries, is folly.
Reuben Hick
I lay odds that the statement "God does not speak to us anymore" has
different meanings. For the Mormon apologist, "speak to us" means "new
revelation" that may replace previous revelations. For others, "speak to
us" may be a colorful way to say "inspires" when one reads the canon of
Scripture and is illuminated by what is there.
Mohammed was also a prophet. In the contest between prophets, why should
Joseph Smith be taken more seriously by Aaron than he would Mohammed?
Also, there has been a very long line of false prophets who just weren't as
prolific and charismatic as ol Joe was.
The Interceptor
"15 For the Law brings about wrath. But where there is no Law, neither can
there be any violation of it. " Romans 4:15 (ISV)
Aaron Kim
"<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"
<kasey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190264990.9...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Well of course that's one of the main reasons Mormonism is attacked because
it teaches that God continues to give us new revelation as He did anciently
(I might add that a true Prophet does not teach anything that contradicts
previous Prophets. 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not
according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah
8:20). I'll cite a specific example. When Joseph Smith was 14 years old he
went to a grove of trees outside of his family's farm in Palmyra, New York
to pray to God to find out which Church he should join. At the time there
was a great deal of religious fervor in the country. As soon as he started
to pray, He saw the Father and the Son. He reported this vision to a local
minister, who said it was "of the devil," because he believed "there were no
such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things
had ceased with the apostles, and there would never be any more of them."
Afterward, he was persecuted and derided by people in his neighborhood for
reported seeing a vision.
Aaron Kim
"john w...@yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com>
> wrote:
> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>"The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>>Chapter 11
>
> RE: Your question:
>
> What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in
> Hell ?
>
> Answer: "Not necessarily."
>
> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>
> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
>
> Is Joshua in hell? Is Jeremiah? Is Noah? Is Jonah?
> Is Ruth? Is Esther?
>
> No. They're all in heaven.
>
> NONE of them lived long enough (or even in the right century) to
> have heard Jesus preach the gospel, or to have heard any of the
> apostles.
You're wrong. The Gospel was preached to the ancients starting all the way
from Adam as if the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had already occurred. They
looked forward to the day of Jesus just like we look back at it.
22 And thus it was that they became denoted by the term prophet, for the
testimony of the Son of God was given by the Spirit of the living God, his
birth among the children of men being yet many years in the future.
23 And these things were also known unto Adam, yea even the plan of
salvation was taught and revealed through the agency of the Holy Priesthood,
which is after the Order of the Son of God, and through the administration
of angels or messengers from time to time from the presence of the Gods.
24 And thus Adam's transgression in the Garden of Eden was forgiven upon
baptism for the remission of sins in the name of the Father and the Son and
Holy Ghost.
25 And he was born of God and through the plan of salvation voted upon from
before the foundation of the world, he did overcome the fall and had his
calling and election made sure and being filled with years did exhort his
children that they too might partake of Eternal Life by entering into that
path which is straight and narrow.
Revelations of Jesus Christ sec.6:22-25 (revelation given to Lord's
Anointed)
> So there MUST be some middle ground to "You MUST have heard the
> gospel preached by Christ.
>
> The answer is right there in the Bible. You just have to look.
>
> And you don' t need the Book of Mormon or the NWT in order to find
> that answer.
>
> john w
Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:3dyIi.54530$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
All the Prophets have been from the blood of the house of Israel. Mohammed
also never received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation. Joseph Smith like
the OT prophets did and true revelations though they may be new do not
"replace previous revelations". All scriptures must be in harmony. That's
how to tell a true prophet from a false one.
Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:w7yIi.54527$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Actually, the Mormons (not anymore as they have deviated from the original
teachings to become popular with the world) are the only one who actually
believe in the Bible. They are the ones who believe that you need Priesthood
authority in order to live the Gospel. What we have with current sectarians
like the Baptists, Protestants, Methodists, etc., who are off shoots of the
"Mother of Harlots" as prophesized by John the Revelator is a chaotic
situation where one sects says one interpretation of the Bible, and another
sect has their interpretation, etc. Prophet Joseph Smith said "Opinion
without revelation is no authority." He said, "All men are liars who say
they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the
Priesthood of Melchizedek, which is after the order of the Son of God."
(Teachings of the Prophet Smith pg. 376) So all these dominations, sects and
churches, none of them are authorized of God, and as God revealed to Joseph
Smith in his first vision, they are all an abomination to Him. These other
churches are counterfeits like getting a fake state ID from a guy on a
street corner rather than the DMV office.
Joseph Smith- History 1:19
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;
and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an
abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that:
"they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me,
they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of
godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever
after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalm 110
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which
was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten
Son.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:57
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he
suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all
them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:8-10
@there Vernono O
God chooses and always has.
He will make happen whatever even if He uses the stars and rocks.
Reuben Hick
Now you have a dilemma. Jacob/Israel was a grandson of Abraham so Abraham
is technically the same blood as Jacob. Why is that important? Because in
Genesis 20:7 Abraham was identified, by God, to be a prophet. But if you
allow Abraham, then you have to allow Ishmael and if you allow Ishmael, it
doesn't matter if Mohammed was of Jewish or Arab ancestry, he would be of
the same blood. So that means you have to deconstruct "blood" to have a
loose figurative feeling that is as flexible as is necessary to allow you
to gratuitously includes some and deny others.
> Mohammed also never received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation.
How do you prove a negative?
> Joseph Smith like the OT prophets did and true revelations though they
> may be new do not "replace previous revelations".
And how do we verify that Joseph Smith had a "true revelation" rather than a
visit from a demon?
There are many people who have very realistic delusions and hallucinations.
The asylums are filled with people who live in such a state much of their
lives. How do we know that Joseph Smith is any different than some brain
damaged mental ward patient? I mean was his message lucid?
"And I saw angels deliver me these golden plates that they translated for
me...." So where are these golden plates? "Oh,..um... they flew away
with them.... but they left me this cool translation that says I can be like
Mohammed and hook up with lots of little girls... God says its OK"
Yeah, that's not a hallucination.
> All scriptures must be in harmony. That's how to tell a true prophet from
> a false one.
Except that if what Joseph Smith had to say was in true harmony, his
"testimony" would be superfluous and unneccessary. Rather, he added and
thus changed the faith. For instance, Christianity does not teach that man
will be "like gods" in fact, that was the original lie in the garden. If
man was supposed to be a god, then why start off sinless in the garden?
Adam and Eve were both immortal because they had not sinned and thus had not
earned death. Yet, in their immortality, God made them of dust of the
earth and limited to the terrestial plane. Did they want to be like God?
Absolutely, because that is exactly the lie that the Serpent made to them.
If A&E were promised by God to be apprentices in the garden, or were to
somehow work their way through a probationary period, then Eve could have
told the Serpent to push off as they would earn their god status in due
time. Yet the path to being like God was to eat forbidden fruit. Since
God told them not to eat the fruit because they would surely die, which is
not what they wanted to do, then why eat the fruit? Because there was no
promise by God to be gods. They wanted something that the Serpent offered
that God didn't. Therefore when Joseph Smith comes along and offers god
status if you just do ____ then how is Joseph's words any different than
Satan's ?
Your "faith" also does not harmonize with Scripture because Joe
deconstructed biblical things. For example, Orthodox Christianity has
believed in the Trinity where God is of three persons, Joe Smith, for the
reason explained later, acknowledges a Godhead of three beings, but breaks
them up into distinct beings that only share a common purpose. If Joe
really wanted to be in harmony with Scripture, he would not have redefined
God, but in order to remove Christ's position as the Almighty, the Alpha and
Omega, the Creator of ALL things, Joseph's Christ had to be demoted to a
lower form of god. A comparison of this can be found in the military: Just
as a Major General and a General are both Generals, the latter is far fewer
in number, makes more money and regularly talks to the Commander in Chief.
When you have the Father as "God" and Jesus as "God" you sound like a
Christian, but you really mean Father is "God" and Jesus is a "Lieutenant
God" but you just say "God" because you know that will deceive Christians.
Using this desconstruction technique, Joseph can pick up from the promise of
the Serpent and then declare that we all can be god like Jesus. And this is
how Mormons diminish Christ and remove Him from His throne as Lord over all
but a lesser god than the Father. So when a Christian points this out, you
con artists try to roll up all ranks of gods into a singular title of "God"
and then lie and say that you don't do as you really do. So you say "We
believe that Jesus is [a] god" and you are thinking one thing and saying
another.
Furthermore, because just a claim that one had a vision from God only fools
gullible idiots like you and your other pals, God provided methods to
authorize and certify true prophets from God. Turn to Deut 13:1-2 and
there you see Joseph Smith, our instructions are in verse 3-4 and what
should have happened to Joe is explained in v5.
Deut 18:22
"When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen
or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the
prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. "
Why do you think that all of the prophets were not taken seriously until
they performed "nearby" miracles? In order to be trusted with the big
stuff, they had to get their bona fides by making authoratative prophecies.
Often they had to perform "signs and wonders", not crap one sees in
carnival side-shows, but good old fashioned miracles like raising someone
from the dead and calling fire down from the sky. Peter and Paul, when
fealing were replacing missing limbs with their miracles of healing which
gave them signs of authority from God. So what are Joe's miracles?
Predicting the sun will rise in the East? Claiming that in the span of a
month, it will rain? Any SuperBowl picks?
So Joseph Smith doesn't fall into the camp of confirmed prophet. He is one
because you dig the message that you can be like god. Six thousand years,
The Fall and The Flood, and people still listen to the great lie that they
will be like god.
So when you diminish Christ, you ensure your damnation. Millstone, meet
neck.
Reuben Hick
Which explains why you skip right over the Bible and find all of your
doctrine in the writings of Joseph Smith.
If you believe the Bible, then why ignore it and use something else?
Because you know Joseph Smith but don't know the Bible?
Think for a minute. Here you are trying to pass yourself off as
illuminated and spiritual - superior to everyone except your fellow
travellers. And how do you characterize fellow travellers? Because they
believe Joseph Smith. Now if you want to convince others that don't
believe Joseph Smith AND make the audacious claim that you and only your ilk
understand Scripture, why don't you use the Bible for your arguments?
[I'm really thinking that you are a troll skilled in parody]
> They are the ones who believe that you need Priesthood authority in order
> to live the Gospel.
Now for us ignorant rubes, we just turn to 1 Corinthians 2:14 and find our
answer there.
> What we have with current sectarians like the Baptists, Protestants,
> Methodists, etc., who are off shoots of the "Mother of Harlots" as
> prophesized by John the Revelator is a chaotic situation where one sects
> says one interpretation of the Bible, and another sect has their
> interpretation, etc.
As opposed to your "sectarian" cult that abandons the Bible altogether and
clings the words of a 19th century kook?
> Prophet Joseph Smith said "Opinion without revelation is no authority."
I'm sure he would say that because claiming that he has a revelation is sure
a heck of a lot easier to do than performing a miracle or two, or by making
a near prophecy that only a true prophet of God could do.
It also helps to ignore the words of a true Apostle who literally walked
with the flesh & blood Jesus Christ when he was ordered in his vision to
"seal the words of the prophecy"(Rev 22:10) and for those who added to
"these things" should be slammed with plagues (Rev 22:18) and when removing
things will be "removed from the Book of Life, the holy city and the things
which are written in this book". Being tarred and feather, imprisoned for
his heresy and later murdered makes him a prophet just like David Koresh who
was shot, defamed, immolated and driven over by a tank.
<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>
> "<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"<kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Fascinating.
Now, could you please make an effort this time to answer my question
and challenge? Here, I'll even re-post it for you:
<begin re-post>
[You said:]
> The only charlatan is your sectarian ministers like Billy Graham and the
> Pope and all your evangelists who build themselves up without building up
> the Kingdom of God. It's your false ministers who preach that God does not
> speak to us anymore as He did anciently which is no where supported in the
> scriptures but God always has Prophets.
[I replied:]
Hmmm...got a reference to cite where Billy Graham or any other
"sectarian ministers" or evangelists have said specifically "God does
not speak to us anymore"?
I bet you can't come up with one.
<end re-post>
Wanna try again?
Reuben Hick
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:22:42 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>>"The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>>>>Chapter 11
>>>
>>> RE: Your question:
>>>
>>> What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in
>>> Hell ?
>>>
>>> Answer: "Not necessarily."
>>>
>>> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>>>
>>> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
>>
>>How do you know this?
>
>
> Why do YOU doubt?
Who said I doubt? You said without reservation that King David and King
Solomon are both in heaven.
In terms of YOUR position with God its a matter of faith, but to claim to
know who is in heaven requires something OBJECTIVE outside of your faith.
IOW, you can't have faith for other people. We have Scripture
specifically stating that David followed after God's heart. We have the
bulk of the Psalms where David speaks prophetically and lovingly about the
things of our LORD. We have evidence of David's faith AND of David's
Works, AND we know that he knew the gospel and firmly believed in the coming
Messiah.
You could have stated that without even cracking open your Bible - but to
say "its in there" says nothing because you don't have a track record of
convincing Biblical knowledge.
Also, with a wave of a hand you discount a millennia old debate on Solomon's
final disposition. There is evidence that he died reprobate.
> As I said, the answer to the question is there.
Yes, I know that you said that. Apparently you are of the generation that
is void of knowledge and fashions your reality based on fantasy, wishes,
dreams, feelings and conjecture. It is one thing to make a claim, it is
another to substantiate the claim. You are quite capable of the prior but
lack dearly in the latter.
walksalone
village idiot but the following shows otherwise.
From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.bibles
tudy,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christianity
Subject: Re: What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They
Burn in Hell ?
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:41:48 -0700
Message-ID: <odi7f359o7tq98pk0...@4ax.com>
References: <5lb2ifF...@mid.individual.net>
<di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com> <C%xIi.54523$YL5.50170
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>
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> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:22:42 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
snip
>>>
>>> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>>>
>>> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
>>
>>How do you know this?
>
> There is no doubt for MANY.
Well yes, many like you can not think about their myth without the
comfort of self delusion. That does not make them correct.
> Why do YOU doubt?
Why does any thinking person not accept that you do not know what you are
pretending to know.
> As I said, the answer to the question is there.
Only if you twist it out of context, also know as lying to yourself.
snip
>>Middle Ground = "Jesus is not required for salvation".
>>
>>So this is where your "faith" has taken you to - you reject Jesus
>>Christ as LORD and Savior and allow for an unspecified "middle ground"
>>that, for all you know may be Islam, Mormanism, Humanism or any other
>>random religious teaching.
>
> "No."
No, if you can't read & understand the other myths, how can you pretend
that your no is anything but denial.
> You have mis-understood me. Again.
Try making sense next time.
>>> The answer is right there in the Bible. You just have to look.
>>>
>>> And you don' t need the Book of Mormon or the NWT in order to find
>>> that answer.
>>
>>Then why do you reject the Bible that you just recommended and make up
>>a fictious "Middle Ground"?
>
>
> ????
>
> What?
Language is not your first language then?
which wannabe this time johnniiee, the one that can not accept that the
majority of the world does not accept his version of his myth?
walksalone who accepts that johnniiee will never understand why he is
laughed at, it's to obvious to everyone else it's paifully obvious.
Johnniiee the super con artist at work.
From: john <john_weathe...@hotmail.com>
Subject: ->->->->->-> MAKE $$$$$ NOW! NO INVESTMENT REQUIRED! <-<-<-<-<-
<-
Date: 1998/10/18
Message-ID: <362ABBCC...@hotmail.com>
: 402680030
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Trace: 18 Oct 1998 21:08:28 +0700, 204.201.83.176
Organization: none
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.animals.pandas,alt.animals.paul-
hendry,alt.animals.ponies,alt.animals.rabbit
I will give you a franchise to sell valuable business
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Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:FWCIi.6169$FO2....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
The Bible supports the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Bible and
Book of Mormon are two testimonies of Jesus Christ. Who told you that the
Bible is the only word of God? Did you know that there are books of prophets
mentioned in the Bible but are not included?
29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written
in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the
Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the bseer against Jeroboam the son of
Nebat?
2 Chronicles 9:29
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had
avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of
Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go
down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they
should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not
contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John 21:25
3 And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A
Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it
shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what
thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do
the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the
pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation
unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant
people? Nay; but ye have acursed them, and have hated them, and have not
sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your
own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no
more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I,
the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are
upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the
earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even
upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know
ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am
God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the
same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall
run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday,
today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own
pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I
cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be
until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it
contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more
to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the
north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall
write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be
written I will judge the world, every man according to their works,
according to that which is written.
(Book of Mormon| 2 Nephi 29:3-11)
> Think for a minute. Here you are trying to pass yourself off as
> illuminated and spiritual - superior to everyone except your fellow
> travellers. And how do you characterize fellow travellers? Because they
> believe Joseph Smith. Now if you want to convince others that don't
> believe Joseph Smith AND make the audacious claim that you and only your
> ilk understand Scripture, why don't you use the Bible for your arguments?
>
> [I'm really thinking that you are a troll skilled in parody]
>
>> They are the ones who believe that you need Priesthood authority in order
>> to live the Gospel.
>
> Now for us ignorant rubes, we just turn to 1 Corinthians 2:14 and find our
> answer there.
>
>
>> What we have with current sectarians like the Baptists, Protestants,
>> Methodists, etc., who are off shoots of the "Mother of Harlots" as
>> prophesized by John the Revelator is a chaotic situation where one sects
>> says one interpretation of the Bible, and another sect has their
>> interpretation, etc.
>
> As opposed to your "sectarian" cult that abandons the Bible altogether and
> clings the words of a 19th century kook?
>
>> Prophet Joseph Smith said "Opinion without revelation is no authority."
>
> I'm sure he would say that because claiming that he has a revelation is
> sure a heck of a lot easier to do than performing a miracle or two, or by
> making a near prophecy that only a true prophet of God could do.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to
pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually
terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
Doctrines and Covenants 87:1
Joseph Smith received the above revelation predicting the Civil War on
December 25,1832. You are a sign seeker. Do you know what Jesus said about
sign seekers?
> It also helps to ignore the words of a true Apostle who literally walked
> with the flesh & blood Jesus Christ when he was ordered in his vision to
> "seal the words of the prophecy"(Rev 22:10) and for those who added to
> "these things" should be slammed with plagues (Rev 22:18) and when
> removing things will be "removed from the Book of Life, the holy city and
> the things which are written in this book".
When John wrote this book, the Bible didn't even exist at the time! It
wasn't until hundreds of years later all the books of the prophets were
compiled into one book. Duh. When John wrote about curses being put one
those add or remove things he was referring specifically to his book not
that God wouldn't allow any more revelations.
Being tarred and feather, imprisoned for
> his heresy and later murdered makes him a prophet just like David Koresh
> who was shot, defamed, immolated and driven over by a tank.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42 Pg.205
The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that
were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets and hence they
killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to
hide themselves "in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth," and though
the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society
as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves,
vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.
>
Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:FWCIi.6169$FO2....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
The Bible supports the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Bible and
written I will judge the world, every man according to their works,
according to that which is written.
(Book of Mormon| 2 Nephi 29:3-11)
> Think for a minute. Here you are trying to pass yourself off as
> illuminated and spiritual - superior to everyone except your fellow
> travellers. And how do you characterize fellow travellers? Because they
> believe Joseph Smith. Now if you want to convince others that don't
> believe Joseph Smith AND make the audacious claim that you and only your
> ilk understand Scripture, why don't you use the Bible for your arguments?
>
> [I'm really thinking that you are a troll skilled in parody]
>
>> They are the ones who believe that you need Priesthood authority in order
>> to live the Gospel.
>
> Now for us ignorant rubes, we just turn to 1 Corinthians 2:14 and find our
> answer there.
>
>
>> What we have with current sectarians like the Baptists, Protestants,
>> Methodists, etc., who are off shoots of the "Mother of Harlots" as
>> prophesized by John the Revelator is a chaotic situation where one sects
>> says one interpretation of the Bible, and another sect has their
>> interpretation, etc.
>
> As opposed to your "sectarian" cult that abandons the Bible altogether and
> clings the words of a 19th century kook?
>
>> Prophet Joseph Smith said "Opinion without revelation is no authority."
>
> I'm sure he would say that because claiming that he has a revelation is
> sure a heck of a lot easier to do than performing a miracle or two, or by
> making a near prophecy that only a true prophet of God could do.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to
pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually
terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
Doctrines and Covenants 87:1
Joseph Smith received the above revelation predicting the Civil War on
December 25,1832. You are a sign seeker. Do you know what Jesus said about
sign seekers?
> It also helps to ignore the words of a true Apostle who literally walked
> with the flesh & blood Jesus Christ when he was ordered in his vision to
> "seal the words of the prophecy"(Rev 22:10) and for those who added to
> "these things" should be slammed with plagues (Rev 22:18) and when
> removing things will be "removed from the Book of Life, the holy city and
> the things which are written in this book".
When John wrote this book, the Bible didn't even exist at the time! It
wasn't until hundreds of years later all the books of the prophets were
compiled into one book. Duh. When John wrote about curses being put one
those add or remove things he was referring specifically to his book not
that God wouldn't allow any more revelations.
Being tarred and feather, imprisoned for
> his heresy and later murdered makes him a prophet just like David Koresh
> who was shot, defamed, immolated and driven over by a tank.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42 Pg.205
<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>
> 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to
> pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually
> terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
> Doctrines and Covenants 87:1
>
> Joseph Smith received the above revelation predicting the Civil War on
> December 25,1832. You are a sign seeker.
> Do you know what Jesus said about
> sign seekers?
Do you know what Jesus said about false prophets and those who preach
another Gospel?
Take for instance this supposed "prophecy" mentioned above from the
D&C. Joseph Smith proclaimed that a civil war would break out between
the Northern and Southern states. Okay, we know that much did
happen. Do you realize that while making that prediction that he also
claimed to have a revelation that the same war would be "poured out
upon all nations"? If you know American history, you know that never
happened. Furthermore, six months *prior* to this so-called
"prophecy", President Andrew Jackson was already expecting hostilities
to break out over South Carolina's rejection of a tariff act by
Congress - this much was, of course, reported in all of the newspapers
of the time (papers that Joseph Smith likely read). Moreover,
President Jackson was so concerned about the advent of war that he the
U.S. Army on alert.
So much for Joseph's "prophecy" about the coming Civil War.
Did you know that according to the Bible, true prophets of God are
right - 100% of the time? According to the Bible, a true prophet does
not lie and their predictions will be fulfilled. Look at Jeremiah
28:9, "But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one
truly sent by the LORD only if his prediction comes true." A true
prophet prophesies in the name of the Lord, not in his or her own name
and is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Look at 2 Pet. 1:21, "For
prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from
God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." A true prophet
does not give their own private interpretation of prophecy. Look at 2
Pet. 1:20, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation." A true
prophet edifies the church, counsels and advises it in religious
matters. Look at 1 Cor. 14:3, 4, "But everyone who prophesies speaks
to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who
speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the
church." A true prophet's words will be in absolute harmony with the
words of the prophets that have preceded him or her. Look at Isaiah
8:20, "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according
to this word, they have no light of dawn."
Let's look at the following, considered to be prophecy by those who
follow the teachings of Joseph Smith:
Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5, 31: This "prophecy", given Sept. 1832,
says a temple would be built on the temple lot in Jackson County,
Missouri "in this generation." A century and a half has passed and yet
no temple has been built in Jackson County, Missouri.
Doctrine and Covenants 97:19: This "prophecy" says that "Zion cannot
fall, neither be moved out of her place...." But, Zion *was* moved
from Jackson County, Missouri to Salt Lake City by Brigham Young.
Furthermore, D&C 101:17-21 says "...there is none other place
appointed than that which I have appointed;..." If the previous is
true, then Salt Lake City cannot be Zion, can it?
Doctrine and Covenants 114:1: This "prophecy", given in 1838 by Joseph
Smith, says that David W. Patten (one of the twelve apostles), was to
perform a mission in the Spring of 1839. If you read The History of
the Church, Vol. 3, Page 175, you'll see that David W. Patten died in
October of 1838. Hmmm...
Doctrine and Covenants 117:12: This "prophecy" says that the name of
Oliver Granger would be held "in sacred remembrance from generation to
generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord." So, tell us, Aaron -
who *is* Oliver Granger and exactly why have most Mormons never heard
of him?
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 219: Heber C. Kimball said on
September 6, 1856, that, "The Church and kingdom to which we belong
will become the kingdom of our God and his Christ, and brother Brigham
Young will become President of the United States... and I am Vice-
President, and brother Wells is the Secretary of the Interior -- yes,
and of all the armies in the flesh... You may think I am joking; but I
am perfectly willing that brother Long should write every word of it;
for I can see it just as naturally as I can see the earth and the
productions thereof."
Yeah, riiiiight.
Now, this one is my personal favorite...
History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182: Joseph Smith said in 1835,
"...it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a
determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be
ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the
last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh -- even fifty-six
years should wind up the scene."
Did Jesus return in 1891 and we all missed it?
Consider the above carefully, Aaron. The Bible does not lie. Joseph
Smith did lie - and what I wrote above proves it. You can't make
Joseph Smith a prophet just because you *want* him to be one. He has
to pass the test for prophets that God set forth in the Bible verses
above. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith failed that test then, and he
still fails it today.
@there Vernono O
Let's see.
The bible says they are / were one of God's own.
DUHHH
God chooses.
Works has nothing to do with anything.
NONE are righteous including them EXCEPT by declaration of God.
>
> In terms of YOUR position with God its a matter of faith, but to claim to
> know who is in heaven requires something OBJECTIVE outside of your faith.
The bible.
Of course you don't even know what biblical faith is.
> IOW, you can't have faith for other people.
What has faith in other people to do with God given faith?
>We have Scripture specifically stating that David followed after God's
>heart. We have the bulk of the Psalms where David speaks prophetically and
>lovingly about the things of our LORD. We have evidence of David's
>faith AND of David's Works, AND we know that he knew the gospel and firmly
>believed in the coming Messiah.
>
> You could have stated that without even cracking open your Bible - but to
> say "its in there" says nothing because you don't have a track record of
> convincing Biblical knowledge.
You have, in this post proven conclusively that you don't.
>
> Also, with a wave of a hand you discount a millennia old debate on
> Solomon's final disposition. There is evidence that he died reprobate.
DUUHHHHH
ALL die reprobate.
NONE are righteous.
Read the bible unless John 12: 40 applies to you, personally. Then it's
useless.
Reuben Hick
>
>
> "Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
> news:FWCIi.6169$FO2....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
>> "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
>> news:5lg6bnF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
>>> news:w7yIi.54527$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>>> "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:5ldgr6F...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"
>>>>> <kasey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1190164084....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On Sep 18, 3:42 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
<propaganda snipped>
> The Bible supports the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Apparently you have a different version of the word "supports". Most of us
would say "condemns". We can say "condemns" because it can be proved. I
gave you several examples. How many times does Joseph's words have to be
found in violence to Scripture before you quit saying that the Bible
supports Joe? And isn't it a bit profane to treat Joe Smith's writings the
standard in which the Bible must be measured against?
> The Bible and Book of Mormon are two testimonies of Jesus Christ.
Yep, that is the claim. And an unsubstantiated claim. And is an outright
lie.
The truth is there are FOUR gospels or "testimonies" of Jesus Christ in the
Canon we call the Bible. There are also a number of letters written by true
apostles of Jesus Christ who were taught by Jesus Christ. We also have the
OT which in toto is a testimony of the anticipated Messiah. Right there you
have two witnesses - the OT prophets and the NT apostles. You have the OT
prophets speaking of the Christ to come, and you have the apostles
testifying of the Lord revealed. There are your two testimonies that you
feel you need - sixty-six books all bundled up in one easily managed
library.
So you have to return to the well of deconstruction and fraud to say that
Joseph Smith provides a SECOND testimony of Jesus Christ.
> Who told you that the Bible is the only word of God?
By asking that question in that manner, you either know and intend to
deceive, or you have no clue whatsoever to what is indeed "The Bible".
Your purpose is either evil or ignorant. Which is it?
Unlike you, I don't make a habit of just throwing out claims without at
least a newsgroup acceptable level of evidence.
For instance, your question treats The Bible as if some dude just sat down
and wrote the whole thing - sort of how you treat Joseph Smith's writings
or how some Muslim would treat Mohammed's works. Sure there are a number
of ancillary writings by your church leaders and by Muslim imams to expand
and comment on the foundational document.
But the Bible wasn't written in one day, but was written by several prophets
over a period exceeding fifteen hundred years in several different languages
in different cultures and times to different people and dispensations using
many different literary techniques. The apostles wrote letters that were
distributed among the churches. If you want to hear a detailed description
of how the Bible came about, tell a Roman Catholic that you are protestant
and you will be schooled in the canoninzation of the Bible. Let's put it
this way, the compilation of today's Bible was a massive undertaking, and
that is why we have a trustworthy Bible today, because of the thousands upon
thousands of man-hours of work by true men of God to reject the junk and
keep what is believed to be Divinly inspired books and letters.
Basically, the Joseph Smith letters don't even pass the most basic peer
review. Under any scholarly practice Joseph Smith's letters would be marked
as junk and quickly discarded. Joseph Smith was born and raised in an area
that was the center of the Great Revival so, due to lack of MTV and other
distractions, a little bit of hype goes a long way. Furthermore, he was
also raised in a time and place where everyone knew of buried treasure -
think "Oak Island". It was a long lasting fad to believe that pirates
buried treasure along the coast or on islands off the coast. Since money
was hard to come by, this was the equivalent of today's lottery - finding
buried treasure. What makes Joe's story absurd is that we are led to
believe that these great golden plates were buried in little Palmyra. Has
anyone bothered to ask why of all places?
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if a young impressionable lad
grows up in an area where preachers are revered and where anyone can win the
lottery by just finding that one winning treasure map, that he would
fabricate an entire religion that would enscounce himself in a position of
spiritual leadership based on him discovering hidden treasure. Today's
equivalent would be to win the lottery and then buy a political office.
So of course he found buried GOLD plates, and of course it was alleged to
have been written a "long, long time ago", and in a completely unknown
tongue that required translation by imaginary magic fairy glasses. This is
the plot line for a Raider of the Lost Ark series. This kind of story would
titilate the rubes and the hicks who didn't get their Amway position in the
last Great Revival tent carnival. I mean, since when do angels tell someone
that they aren't the "right person" and then say the "right person" is
someone who will be dead when its their time to act? This should be a major
clue that the "angels" are not of God. Furthermore, what's with the
necromancers? Didn't King Saul lose favor with God for consulting a
necromancer? This whole story about the plates receives the loud guffaws
that it deserves, and sends all but the most gullible running off.
It also explains why he made the stupid prediction that the financially
strapped struggling "church" would discover "hidden treasure". If the
parishioners believed it once with the gold plates, maybe they won't desert
him if he makes another winning lottery ticket prediction again. It was an
act of desperation, not one of proving some divine blessing.
So given that his background doesn't recommend him as a prophet, or as one
who would win the lottery ticket of allegedly discovering these gold plates
using demonic "seer stones", "necromancers", dead brothers, and greedy
treasure hunters, why, after using the tools and symbology of the occult,
would God entrust Joe to godly things? Think about it. The united States
was largely made up of reformed Christians who already had strong knowledge
and fear of the Holy Bible. Why not expand operations in a pagan area of
the world like the Far East? God hates Chinamen? What we have is wild
stories of Jesus Christ and Joe Smith preaching to the choir rather than
evangelizing the lost.
The usual procedure found in Scripture is that the child is called out into
the ministry of a prophet through revelation to the parents first, and then
the child is tutored in the ways of the LORD for many decades before that
middle-aged adult begins the ministry. Joseph Smith had NONE of that. His
own biography shows violation after violation of that Biblical manner and
path. There is a reason why God went through the parents first and had the
child go through decades of preparation before ministry - to eliminate the
possibility of charlatans popping up and claiming to be prophets. Baby
Moses, Samuel, John the Baptist and many others are shown to go down this
path. Prophets like Elijah, the Bible does not desire to show us his
character, only his ministry. Yet, we know of Elijah raising the dead and
calling down fire from the sky. What are Joseph Smith's bona fides? His
allegiance with demon and cultic talismans to discover things that are
allegedly of God (and just incidentally are written on highly valued
treasure which was the rage at that time). Did God write the Decalogue on
gold or on stone? You have more red flags than May Day in Red Square.
So now we have you and your handlers falsely telling us that the Bible is
merely one testimony. That is either profoundly ignorant or highly
deceptive characterization of the canon. Take your pick. But this claim
is absolutely necessary in order to conjure up the notion that there must be
a second testimony. Well, if there is to be a second testimony, what
happened to the "Book of Lehi"? Is this a testimony that God intended to
be translated and then consequently lost forever? What kind of screwed up
god couldn't manage to keep a translation around?
And this gets to an important part here. "For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled." - Jesus Christ as recorded by Matthew (5:18).
A prophet of the magnitude that Joseph Smith is alleged to be ranked, would
have as his job description to tell of future things, and to administer the
law. Now Jesus Christ is saying that not one jot or tittle shall pass from
the law, but we have Joseph losing not just a jot or tittle, but the whole
book of Lehi! Compare that to the enormous effort to preserve the entirety
of the OT canon over the millennia, through wars, sieges, holocausts,
dispersion and captivity. The OT canon has been preserved by God as a
testimony to the coming Messiah, while Joseph and his irresponsible clod
buddies are getting drunk and losing whole books of alleged "second
testimony".
Third, we have the canon of Scripture divinly inspired. That is, Christians
believe as an article of faith that the entire Bible has been inspired by
God and that the Spirit wrote down the revelations through men. Joseph is
alleged to have digged up some buried treasure written by some unknown
gnostic mystic on gold plates buried in the north eastern part of the united
States a sleepy little no-name town between Lake Ontario and Interstate 90,
which as we all know has been a hotbed of ancient Jewish and Christian
history and prophecy. Then he hid away in his home using magic crystals
while his face was buried in his hat to read these plates no one else has
seen. I'm sure that Elijah and Moses routinely strapped on magic fairy
rocks and cast chicken bones and eyes of newt to determine God's revealed
plan.
> Did you know that there are books of prophets mentioned in the Bible but
> are not included?
If you mean "prophets" as in any-old-prophet, of course, and those who
formed the canon of scripture have rejected those things as not being
inspired by God and thus not of God. And no, they didn't just cast lots or
look through magic fairy glasses or consult the dead and demons to determine
what book made the list or not.
The revealed word of God is not a landfill where any joker who calls himself
a prophet can stash his personal opinions and wild prognostications into.
Mohammed came along and performed even more realistic prophetic junk than
Joe and there is no one on this planet who seriously believes that these
"prophets" should have any of their works enshrined in the canon of
Scripture. That is why they get to have their own books, just like any
other fiction writer.
> 29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not
> written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah
> the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the bseer against Jeroboam the
> son of Nebat?
> 2 Chronicles 9:29
That any many other claims are used to justify why the Bible is actually a
landfill. Because these books allegedly abound, they by their mere presence
are entitled to be included and considered as Holy Writ. This is a
fundamental tenet of Gnosticism and Mysticism. That there is this body of
works that have the authority of Scripture but for some odd reason weren't
included. Therefore if someone "finds" one of these documents, it curiously
also seems to perfectly correlate with whatever sin-filled depraved idea or
"doctrine" they want to be accepted. I'm sure that some day, if not
already, some Sodomites will dig up some prophetic book and find in the
"translation" somewhere that fudge packers are ranked somewhere above men
and angels and just a little lower than God Almighty.
So the Bible isn't just this huge library of text from that region. Here is
why: The Bible isn't about "the acts of Solomon" or the visions of "Iddo"
who is speculated to be the author of genealogies (which I'm sure excites
your crowd), commentary and "visions against Jeroboam". It is about Jesus
Christ. The genealogies are in the Bible so that we can see the line from
Adam to Christ and from King David to Christ. That is why we don't have
every branch of every person that isn't related to Christ in Scriptures.
If you are geeked up about the acts of Solomon not mentioned in the Bible or
the visions against Jeroboam are what gets your attention, then go down to
your local library and see if someone dug up these tomes and translated them
for you.
<snipped demonic dreck since YOU should know that only folks like you care>
> (Book of Mormon| 2 Nephi 29:3-11)
Joe has no bona fides. His claims are self authenticating, IOW he grades
his own tests and we are expected to believe every word he utters because
that is all he has to support his claims. His history shows that even as a
child he made money as a carnival act huckster "seer" and he carried that
exact same carnival stunt into adulthood and build a religion around it.
His act belongs alongside the Bearded Lady and the Rubber Man. HIs stories
are as authentic and as provable as any one of a number of urban legends.
No one bothers to ask why Jesus Christ would come to the Americas.
No one bothers to ask why this alleged angel Moroni (or Nephi, depending on
whether you believe Joe Smith's autobiography or latter day historical
revisionists) would come to Joe when there is no similar angel in all of
Biblical history.
I mean, look at Scripture, whenever an angel came by, the person they
approached fell prostrate in fear. That is why the first words uttered by
angels was often "Fear Not" - those words just weren't a standard cultural
salutation like today's "Hi, how are you?" They said those words because
the people they stood before trembled in mortal fear. By Joseph's own
words, he wasn't scared or intimidated by the angel to the point where the
angel (whoever you guys think he/she was) had to make threats of calling
down "wrath from heaven" just to get him to stay awake and pay attention.
There are so many bogus allegations made, so many inconsistencies, so many
differences from established patterns and practices that you have to be a
persistent fool to ignore the mountain of evidence screaming that Joe Smith
was an opportunist of the like of PT Barnum and Robert Tilton.
Master the Holy Bible first. Then if you have exahusted all that there is
you need to know from that, then consider looking at Joe's works.
If you are honest and sincere, you will find, like the millions of those
have preceded you, that a lifetime is still not enough time to absorb the
things of God found in his Original Revealed Word.
<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>
> <propaganda snipped>
Excellent post. Good for you.
Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:knbJi.54693$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
> news:5livl8F...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> "Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
>> news:FWCIi.6169$FO2....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
>>> "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5lg6bnF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:w7yIi.54527$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>>>> "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:5ldgr6F...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "<~=(Hey, WhaddyaKnow;JesusSaysI'mAWhosoeverToo!)=~>"
>>>>>> <kasey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1190164084....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 3:42 pm, "Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>
> <propaganda snipped>
>
>> The Bible supports the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
>
> Apparently you have a different version of the word "supports". Most of
> us would say "condemns". We can say "condemns" because it can be proved.
> I gave you several examples. How many times does Joseph's words have to
> be found in violence to Scripture before you quit saying that the Bible
> supports Joe? And isn't it a bit profane to treat Joe Smith's writings
> the standard in which the Bible must be measured against?
You haven't said anything in the scriptures that contradicts Joseph Smith's
teachings. Name them. Paul wrote no man knows the things of man but by the
spirit of man and no man knows the things of God but by the Spirit of God.
Joseph Smith's revelations sustain the Bible and I have it by the Spirit
that he is a true Prophet. Sectarian knotheads continue to blabber their
anti-Mormonism bigotry with well God can't give us more anymore words
because of their false traditions and wickedness.
>> The Bible and Book of Mormon are two testimonies of Jesus Christ.
>
> Yep, that is the claim. And an unsubstantiated claim. And is an outright
> lie.
>
> The truth is there are FOUR gospels or "testimonies" of Jesus Christ in
> the Canon we call the Bible. There are also a number of letters written
> by true apostles of Jesus Christ who were taught by Jesus Christ. We
> also have the OT which in toto is a testimony of the anticipated Messiah.
> Right there you have two witnesses - the OT prophets and the NT apostles.
> You have the OT prophets speaking of the Christ to come, and you have the
> apostles testifying of the Lord revealed. There are your two testimonies
> that you feel you need - sixty-six books all bundled up in one easily
> managed library.
Judah and Ephraim are the two main houses of Israel.
1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the
firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was
given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to
be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler;
but the birthright was Joseph's:)
1 Chronicles 5:1-2
Joseph's sons were Ephraim and Mannessah. The Bible talks about a stick of
Judah (Bible) and a stick of Ephraim (Book of Mormon).
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For
Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another
stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the
house of Israel his companions:
Ezekiel 37:16
After King Solomon died, Israel was divided into two nations, the northern
kingdom and the southern kingdom. The
southern kingdom was Judah made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and
part of Levi. The northern kingdom was Israel made up of the tribes of
Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim,
Manasseh and Benjamin, and part of Levi. Around 750 BC, Assyria invaded
Israel and took them captive and scattered them Europe and never returned to
restore their nation. Around 600 BC, Judah was invaded by Babylon and were
taken captive for around 80 years but unlike Israel, some thousand Jews
(abbreviated pronunciation of Jew-dah) returned to restore their nation.
Jesus came only to the Jews, the ones who had the law, during his ministry.
It was the duty of his Apostles to preach to the Gentiles. Ephraim, the
birthright tribe, was gathered out of Europe and resettled on North America
and organized the Gentile nation of the USA. The fulness of the Gospel,
Mormonism, was restored through Ephraim in 1830 which you deny due to your
false sectarian traditions. As the Bible is the history of ancient Israel so
is the Book of Mormon a history of ancient North America. Zion will be
gathered out on Ephraim, on North America as prophesized below:
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down
with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and
a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down
together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned
child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth
shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for
an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall
be glorious.
Isaiah 11:6-10
If you study the verses above in 6-9, it's clearly referring to a time of
absolute peace, the milliniuem period when Jesus has returned. Now verse 10
says there will be a root of Jesse just prior to his return who will gather
Zion. Obviously this individual is not Jesus but someone else. This person
is Messiah to Ephraim as Jesus was Messiah to Judah (note: only Jesus is the
Only Begotten). This person is the Deliverer. More information on the
identity
of the Deliverer can be found at our website and radio program listed at the
bottom
walksalone
he reminded everybody that it only his opinion that counts, all others,
to include those supported by the Hebrew Bible are null and void when he
speaks.
From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.bibles
tudy,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christianity
Subject: Re: What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They
Burn in Hell ?
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:50:04 -0700
Message-ID: <ajhaf35colagjkm1n...@4ax.com>
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> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:31:59 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>news:odi7f359o7tq98pk0...@4ax.com...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:22:42 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
>>> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>>>news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
>>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim"
>>>>> <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>>>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
>>>>> post may be used anywhere else without written permission of the
>>>>> author.
>>>>>>"The Resurrection" by Ogden Kraut
>>>>>>Chapter 11
>>>>>
>>>>> RE: Your question:
>>>>>
>>>>> What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They Burn in
>>>>> Hell ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Answer: "Not necessarily."
>>>>>
>>>>> Is King David in Hell? Is his son, King Solomon?
>>>>>
>>>>> Answer: No! Neither is in hell.
>>>>
>>>>How do you know this?
>>>
>>> There is no doubt for MANY.
>>>
>>> Why do YOU doubt?
>>
>>Who said I doubt? You said without reservation that King David and
>>King Solomon are both in heaven.
>
> Yes, I did.
Which means you are speaking from a position of knowledge, a position you
demonstratably cannot support.
>>In terms of YOUR position with God its a matter of faith, but to claim
>>to know who is in heaven requires something OBJECTIVE outside of your
>>faith.
> You are quite entitled to believe as you wish.
And you are quite entitled to attempt to mislead others with your
generalities, as we, the audience, are quite entitled to disregard your
generalities. As well as your attempted superior knowledge implications,
your xianity, and other implied and unverified presentations by you
> I am equally entitled. I believe that the Old Testament prophets--
No, you know, you are not entitled to present your beliefs as statements
of fact, unless you can support them. Something you are famous for not
being able to do. What you believe versus what you can demonstrate as
true are two entirely different subjects, one is not even known to exist.
> every last one of them-- is in Heaven today.
Believe as you wish, your privilege. As long as you are a member of a
free society and not a theocracy. But once you cross that line from
believe to know, you are fair game for ridicule. A point that will
always elude you.
>>IOW, you can't have faith for other people.
>
> Agreed. And yet we each believe as we choose. It's my belief that the
> Old Testament Patriarchs are all in Heaven, waiting for us.
A belief denied by your missing messiah. But that's the beauty of
xianity in particular, nobody can prove you wrong, just as you cannot
prove you are correct.
> And it disturbs me GREATLY that anyone calling himself a "Christian"
> would believe otherwise!
Of course, it disturbs you, that means others are not following your lead
and are thinking for themselves. A situation when you find intolerable
from your point of view.
> We have Scripture
>>specifically stating that David followed after God's heart. We have
>>the bulk of the Psalms where David speaks prophetically and lovingly
>>about the things of our LORD. We have evidence of David's faith
>>AND of David's Works, AND we know that he knew the gospel and firmly
>>believed in the coming Messiah.
>
> Yep.
>>
>>You could have stated that without even cracking open your Bible - but
>>to say "its in there" says nothing because you don't have a track
>>record of convincing Biblical knowledge.
>
> I don't recall making any sort of statement that you or anyone else
> is required to agree with my point.
Required no, take at face value, that is the implication. After all, you
have declared that you have attended seminary, you had declared yourself
as a scholar ™, you declared yourself as an elder ©, you have implied
that your knowledge is deep and fast. Even though it is so shallow that
a hydrogen atom has more depth. You continue to apply that your
knowledge is vastly superior to that of others, and you continually
failed to demonstrate any validity to that insinuation/implication.
> But I will believe it regardless.
You are free to do so, just as I am free, except the fact that should
xianity be correct, you will be a full-time resident in hell.
>>
>>Also, with a wave of a hand you discount a millennia old debate on
>>Solomon's final disposition. There is evidence that he died
>>reprobate.
>
> "Ok!"
> I don't have a need to argue.
Of course you do, otherwise you'd remain silent and not display your
ignorance.
>>
>>> As I said, the answer to the question is there.
>>
>
> I believe that ONE clue we have to those who WILL meet us in heaven
> is that left us written proof.
The above sentence makes no sense as written, are you trying to say that
there is written proof as to who will and will not meet you in heaven?
Assuming you have a valid basis for the authenticity of this claim, other
than your imagination and apologetic writings, would you care share it
with the audience. I'm sure everybody could utilize a very good and long
laugh at your expense.
> I have a difficult time with the concept of some (you, for example),
> that King Solomon's writings were considered divinely ordained, but
> Solomon could not be saved.
Your difficulties are immaterial. Supposedly, your god could use anyone
he wanted to make a point. This would include Solomon, the missing
Solomon, as claimed by the Hebrew Bible.
>>Yes, I know that you said that. Apparently you are of the generation
>>that is void of knowledge and fashions your reality based on fantasy,
>>wishes, dreams, feelings and conjecture.
>
> You don't encourage either discussion or debate.
Speaking of yourself. I see nothing really changes with you.
> john w
Which wannabe this time Johnny, the pretty little girl in the yellow
duress dress, that assumes everybody just has to adore her and cannot
wait for her to lie again? As usual, your assumption is in error.
Walksalone, who hasn't no doubt, Johnny really believes his garbage, but
his gods are not as stupid as he hopes they are, or if they are, they are
definitely figments of the imagination.
Thanks. At least when I use hurtful words, it's not normally intended.
And I've told Phar Lap and some others, when they stop hounding me
with daily, post to post evil words, I'll stop fighting back.
John W
walksalone
the opinion of an uninformed undereducated individual, should be good
enough for everybody else. Of course, it is not.
From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.bibles
tudy,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christianity
Subject: Re: What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They
Burn in Hell ?
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:51:41 -0700
Message-ID: <luhaf3dc10siv46q1...@4ax.com>
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> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:33:06 -0700, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
>>news:3mSIi.28123$eY.1...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>>>
>>> "john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>> news:odi7f359o7tq98pk0...@4ax.com...
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:22:42 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
>>>> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
>>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
>>>> post may be used anywhere else without written permission of the
>>>> author.
>>>>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>>>>news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
>>>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim"
>>>>>> <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>>>>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
snip
>>>
>>> Who said I doubt? You said without reservation that King David and
>>> King Solomon are both in heaven.
>>
>>Let's see.
>>The bible says they are / were one of God's own.
>>
>>DUHHH
>>God chooses.
>>Works has nothing to do with anything.
>>NONE are righteous including them EXCEPT by declaration of God.
> Hm! Interesting take you would have on why the prophets MUST be in
> heaven! "Grace!"
Actually, that contradicts the demands any claims of your missing
messiah.
> Yet you don't believe that God's grace is sufficient to cover men
> today.
> Me, for example.
That would require it your guide to decide when they give a liar, which
according to Scripture and the Greek Testament is not going to happen.
This assumes, of course, that the God in question is smart enough to tie
its own sandals.
> You don't believe that God's grace is sufficient for ME.
No, according to its written word, you are shit out of luck, willingly
so.
Unfortunately, this would include a small child, who just got ran over by
a Mack truck and will linger, painfully, for the next three months prior
to its death. Grace, is the only way xians have of getting around. The
problem created by their messiah when he stated. You only get there from
here through him.
snip
which wannabe this time Johnny, the inarticulate rhetorical individual
who can only pretend to have a pool of knowledge that he has yet to
demonstrate. You cannot even demonstrate you know where the pool might
be located, but you have demonstrated, you would not be able to
understand it if you had to read it.
walksalone who has no doubts, Johnny will milk this thread as long as he
can, and continue only insert his claims & assertions of his so-called
biblical knowledge superiority. A superiority that has never been
established to start with.
HahahahahahA!
Christians don't debate that birds can change colors and crossbreed!
Christians debate the CLASSIC definition of evolution, which you now
deny!
Evolution REALLY says that we ALL came from an amoeba!
jw 06 Dec 2002
Gil Smith
>
> And last, the Roman Catholic Religion is not Christian, it is Roman
> Catholicism, so it really doesn't matter what the Pope thinks or what
> people think of the Pope.
Reuben, I have enjoyed your methodical and concise refuting of this
mormon apologist. I'm a 'generic' Christian now, but did grow up
Catholic. Here I disagree with you. Catholics ARE Christians. Their
position on the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus are the same as other
mainline Christians. This is a very bottom line common denominator that
must exist to be a Christian, in my opinion.
Gil Smith
jvol...@gmail.com
<outerdarkn...@warmoose.com> wrote:
> If A&E were promised by God to be apprentices in the garden, or were
> to somehow work their way through a probationary period, then Eve
> could have told the Serpent to push off as they would earn their god
> status in due time. Yet the path to being like God was to eat
> forbidden fruit. Since God told them not to eat the fruit because
> they would surely die, which is not what they wanted to do, then why
> eat the fruit? Because there was no promise by God to be gods.
> They wanted something that the Serpent offered that God didn't.
> Therefore when Joseph Smith comes along and offers god status if you
> just do ____ then how is Joseph's words any different than Satan's ?
"They wanted something that the Serpent offered that God didn't.
Therefore when Joseph Smith comes along and offers god status if you
just do ____ then how is Joseph's words any different than Satan's ?"
Very good point, Rube. In fact, this is true in general of any offer
purported to be from God of a better/higher life suspended upon some
condition to be performed: God doesn't deal in offers, and makes no
offer at all to man. Therefore any such offer must come from the
Serpent, not God, and anyone who believes that such an offer of a
higher life or salvation suspended upon a condition comes from God
has been fatally deceived by the Serpent.
It was true at the beginning in the Garden, when man had not yet
sinned. How much more is it true of today's well-meant/free offer
of salvation, when man is fallen and dead in sin?
JV
walksalone
From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.bibles
tudy,alt.religion.christian.catholic,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,
alt.religion.christianity
Subject: Re: What Happens to People Who Never Hear the Gospel ? Do They
Burn in Hell ?
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:49:01 -0700
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> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:31:59 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>news:odi7f359o7tq98pk0...@4ax.com...
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:22:42 GMT, "Reuben Hick"
>>> <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote:
>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>>>>news:di02f3tujg4fjhjqq...@4ax.com...
>>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:42:13 -0700, "Aaron Kim"
>>>>> <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote:
>>>>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
snip
>>>
>>> Why do YOU doubt?
>>
>>Who said I doubt? You said without reservation that King David and
>>King Solomon are both in heaven.
>
> "Absolutely!"
Something you cannot know, and according to the Hebrew bible is not
possible. There was no heaven until after the Babylonian vacation.
> How can YOU believe that two AUTHORS of the Bible we have wrote the
> very words of God Himself, and they're both cooking over a hot fire
> now?
They are not cooking over a hot fire, they are in sheol. Of course, this
requires you to have the ability to read more than just the parts they
give you a warm damp spot over your Kotex™®©.
The concept required being exposed to the Persian mythology, where a
heaven and hell, & a dualistic theology was developed to explain why they
so continuously got their ass kicked and sent elsewhere. Prior to the
Babylonian vacation, everybody went to sheol.
> Your "Christian Tradition" (what you've been taught by others who
> ALSO don't know) is not the Bible.
And your version of xianity is as warped as any I've encountered. You
only except the parts that possibly can be twisted to make you feel good.
And justify your hatred of others.
> Your UNDERSTANDING/ MISUNDERSTANDING of what the Bible says is not
> necessarily what it says, or what it means.
Well, you're certainly isn't. In fact, it's almost a safe bet to say
that your understanding/misunderstanding. Is anything but accurate, or
even germane to the message.
> You have been conditioned, trained, to see all scripture ONE way. I
> wasn't taught that, and even in SEMINARY, I found myself at odds with
> my profs, and that I was TEACHING THEM!
You never were taught according to your demonstrated claims. The only
thing you may have taught them is how to laugh even harder in somebody's
face. You're not smart enough, even teach somebody how to open a book.
>>In terms of YOUR position with God its a matter of faith, but to claim
>>to know who is in heaven requires something OBJECTIVE outside of your
>>faith.
> ????? Do you always over-react that way?
Do you believe you're the only one that should be allowed to overreact.
That way is by your definition, which means it's not to be trusted.
> I didn't say "I know every name and face in heaven."
No, but you did tell the lie and say you knew that David and Solomon were
in heaven, when in fact, you cannot know. What you claim is a direct
contradiction of the Hebrew bible. Of course, there's nothing new there.
> I said the prophets of Old are in Heaven! That would include David
> and his son, Solomon!
David and Solomon were not prophets, they were messiah's, by definition.
And missing, as described, by archaeology and history. Of course,
archaeology and history are things you avoid because you may accidentally
learn something you don't want to hear.
>
>>IOW, you can't have faith for other people.
> You certainly can and do go off on some MAJOR tangents!
> I'm betting you hear that A LOT!
Are you trying to say he is imitating you?
> We have Scripture
>>specifically stating that David followed after God's heart. We have
>>the bulk of the Psalms where David speaks prophetically and lovingly
>>about the things of our LORD. We have evidence of David's faith
>>AND of David's Works, AND we know that he knew the gospel and firmly
>>believed in the coming Messiah.
> There you go! ^ ^ ^ You've opened your mind, your heart, and your
> BIBLE, and it's SLOWLY coming to you!
If he had opened his bible, he went ahead and no belief in an oncoming
personal messiah, that was a tradition that had to be developed and you
don't know the history of it. Of course, all you understand is the Greek
tradition promised you a spot in heaven, if you kiss the right ass. A
task, you have applied your life to, instead of living it.
>>You could have stated that without even cracking open your Bible - but
>>to say "its in there" says nothing because you don't have a track
>>record of convincing Biblical knowledge.
>
> smirk.
Putting on airs again, but that's all you can do.
> Then don't bother with me further. I'm betting the training I've had
> (other than finishing seminary) equals yours.
You're saying he has absolutely no training, then.
> And you don't give me the impression that you're seminary trained.
You were the one that tried to peddle off the impression that you had not
only attended to seminaries, simultaneously, but you were a graduate.
Until you got pounded for your lack of knowledge and admitted to not
having graduated, you tried to keep up the front. That false façade
crumbled, and it later came out that you were given the boot. So seminary
training, you may have found in a dictionary. But you certainly cannot
display it.
>>Also, with a wave of a hand you discount a millennia old debate on
>>Solomon's final disposition. There is evidence that he died
>>reprobate.
>
> I also don't hold a gun to your head MAKING you believe as I do. You
> are quite free to disagree, and you are free to be wrong.
He's not only free to disagree, but he's free to be correct whether you
like it or not. Just because you assume everybody else is wrong does not
make it true. Frequently, it's an indicator that they are correct.
>>> As I said, the answer to the question is there.
>>
>>Yes, I know that you said that. Apparently you are of the generation
>>that is void of knowledge and fashions your reality based on fantasy,
>>wishes,
>
> I am NOT one who gives enlightenment (such as I've received) to
> people who DEMAND it without showing themselves WORTHY of receiving
> it.
You can't get enlightenment, you don't know what it means. And you can't
do that either, for you are not the judge as to who does or does not need
it. Granted, you think, you know more about than your god does, and you
think you have more authority than your god does, but your fellow xians
do not agree, what you are concerned, in either case.
> My POINT is, if you were DILIGENT, you wouldn't need to ask such
> qusetions. No one told ME! I figured it out, and then went to my
> "spiritual elders" for their feedback.
Too you know nor they understood the question. Of course, this may see
assumption, you could formulate the question in the English language,
where it would make any sense, not a very strong probability.
> Not all agreed, but all gave me kudos for coming to an understanding
> of it WITH SCRIPTURE ALONE.
Of course they did, after all, everybody admires Jonny, unless they know
him.
> And NEVER let a pastor, no matter how many degrees he has, to tell
> you the Bible is WRONG, and the pastor CORRECT.
Simply amazing, and you claim to be a grammarian.
The bible is full of errors, historically incorrect in several places,
and full of theological errors in the Greek Testament. One such is your
temple incident, where you think, the boy had a case of the ass. When in
fact, to pimp the message, it could be written no other way. Of course,
that requires knowledge of theology is beyond your ability to grasp or
even conceptualize.
> I've shot down more than a few scholars with scripture.
Then, they were not scholars. But then again, your definition of scholar
is as loose as fresh chicken shit, the kind you keep looking for your
chewing gum in.
>>dreams, feelings and conjecture.
>
> You assume and prognosticate AGAIN.
Nothing you don't do in every post, but then, what's a poser to do in
reality does not agree with them?
> It is one thing to make a claim, it is
>>another to substantiate the claim. You are quite capable of the
>>prior but lack dearly in the latter.
>
> See above. You remain unworthy.
And you remain without a clue, incapable of supporting your claims, and
in general, and all around nogoodnik, who pretends to be a xian scholar™.
> But once you have purified yourself with fasting, repenting, and
> confessing, I suggest you look up the death scene with King David,
> when his servants come and tell him his infant son has just died.
Better yet, learn to read. Learn the history, learn the reason for the
myth, and learn you are indeed a fool.
> The key to your entire dilemma is there.
Only for you, you do not even recognize your dilemma. It is
inconceivable to you, narcissistic as you are, that you could be in
error, and therefore, everybody else must be wrong. They are not. Would
you care to discuss this issue, if you can?
Which wannabe this time Jonny, the one that can only pretend to be a
scholar™, because his posting history says he's anything but a scholar,
but he is a poser, who does not mind pretending to be a scholar™, Elder,
person with an informed opinion which everyone knows is incorrect, and
all-around pompous ass.
walksalone, who does not mind johnnie's ignorance. But it would be nice
if he kept it to itself for a change. Anybody got a case of beer they
want to bet against him keeping it to itself? Be a sucker bet if they do.
And now, for a great moment in thespian as we watched johnnie play, well
something anyway.
3645155C...@hotmail.com
john w as jay west
don't know what show these are from. Wish I did.
But I noticed something interesting. I'm a body hair lover.
See in the 1st pic of the set, her unretouched hairy navel?
If her navel is that hairy, guess what else is?
hehehe
j
Aaron Kim
>> The Bible and Book of Mormon are two testimonies of Jesus Christ.
>
> Yep, that is the claim. And an unsubstantiated claim. And is an outright
> lie.
>
> The truth is there are FOUR gospels or "testimonies" of Jesus Christ in
> the Canon we call the Bible. There are also a number of letters written
> by true apostles of Jesus Christ who were taught by Jesus Christ. We
> also have the OT which in toto is a testimony of the anticipated Messiah.
> Right there you have two witnesses - the OT prophets and the NT apostles.
> You have the OT prophets speaking of the Christ to come, and you have the
> apostles testifying of the Lord revealed. There are your two testimonies
> that you feel you need - sixty-six books all bundled up in one easily
> managed library.
>
> So you have to return to the well of deconstruction and fraud to say that
> Joseph Smith provides a SECOND testimony of Jesus Christ.
I forgot to add this to my previous reply of the same post. Jesus said "...
in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
(Matt. 18:16) Like I have thoroughly explained, Judah and Ephraim are two
witnesses, two nations that are a witness of Jesus Christ.
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know
ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am
God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the
same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall
run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
2 Nephi:29
>> Who told you that the Bible is the only word of God?
>
> By asking that question in that manner, you either know and intend to
> deceive, or you have no clue whatsoever to what is indeed "The Bible".
That was a rhetorical question. I know God continues to give revelation
today as He
did 2000 years ago. Only sectarians like you insist He doesn't. The
scriptures say He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law,
happy is he. (Prov. 29:18)
You will not repent due to your false traditions and darkness of mind so you
will not acknowledge the restoral of the Priesthood authority lost when the
Apostles of the first Church died and was lost for about 1800 years before
Peter, James, and John returned and anointed Joseph Smith the Priesthood
authority and that God once again speaks to us now in the present.
> Your purpose is either evil or ignorant. Which is it?
>
> Unlike you, I don't make a habit of just throwing out claims without at
> least a newsgroup acceptable level of evidence.
>
> For instance, your question treats The Bible as if some dude just sat down
> and wrote the whole thing - sort of how you treat Joseph Smith's writings
> or how some Muslim would treat Mohammed's works. Sure there are a number
> of ancillary writings by your church leaders and by Muslim imams to expand
> and comment on the foundational document.
>
> But the Bible wasn't written in one day, but was written by several
> prophets over a period exceeding fifteen hundred years in several
> different languages in different cultures and times to different people
> and dispensations using many different literary techniques. The apostles
> wrote letters that were distributed among the churches. If you want to
> hear a detailed description of how the Bible came about, tell a Roman
> Catholic that you are protestant and you will be schooled in the
> canoninzation of the Bible. Let's put it this way, the compilation of
> today's Bible was a massive undertaking, and that is why we have a
> trustworthy Bible today, because of the thousands upon thousands of
> man-hours of work by true men of God to reject the junk and keep what is
> believed to be Divinly inspired books and letters.
>
> Basically, the Joseph Smith letters don't even pass the most basic peer
> review. Under any scholarly practice Joseph Smith's letters would be
> marked as junk and quickly discarded.
I bear my testimony that Joseph Smith is indeed a true Prophet of God, as
much of a Prophet as any in the Bible. The same Spirit that testified to me
of Jesus Christ strives with me daily. I know it does not with you but you
only spout your opinions based on your false traditions and own noodle.
A true Prophet will teach doctrines and give revelations that may be new but
will not contradict past prophets.
"I hope you will search the Scriptures to see whether these things are not
also consistent with those things which the ancient Prophets and Apostles
have written." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 29)
Another difference between a true servant of God and a false priest or
minister is by the fact that a true servant gets revelations. A false
minister will say that God cannot give revelation any more. All the prophets
in the Old Testament received "Thus saith the Lord" revelations". Joseph
Smith received over 100 revelations that were published. Also a true Prophet
will require that his followers receive a witness of his calling and
teachings by the Spirit not to just blindly follow him. Paul said no man
knows the things of God but by the Spirit of God.
"Search the scriptures--search the revelations which we publish, and ask
your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the
truth
unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting,
He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for
yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for
the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for
when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He
will save them." (TPJS, pp. 11-12)
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of
Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere
heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth
of it unto you.... (Moroni 10:4)
16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile
against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day
shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the
earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall
perish.
17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their
wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of
Hosts.
18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth,
must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must
needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his
everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of
men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that
they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and
thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to
hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell;
and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none--and thus he
whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from
whence there is no deliverance.
23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the
devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne
of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go
into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which
is endless torment.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth
the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!
27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the
truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with
gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he
shall fall.
29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we
need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men
line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and
blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my
counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will
give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be
taken away even that which they have.
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or
shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given
by the power of the Holy Ghost.
32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding
I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me;
nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will
repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long,
saith the Lord God of Hosts.
(2 Ne 28:11-32)
Joseph Smith was born and raised in an area
> that was the center of the Great Revival so, due to lack of MTV and other
> distractions, a little bit of hype goes a long way.
"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the
one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge
and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over
preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of
righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the
creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229,
George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866
Furthermore, he was
> also raised in a time and place where everyone knew of buried treasure -
> think "Oak Island". It was a long lasting fad to believe that pirates
> buried treasure along the coast or on islands off the coast. Since money
> was hard to come by, this was the equivalent of today's lottery - finding
> buried treasure. What makes Joe's story absurd is that we are led to
> believe that these great golden plates were buried in little Palmyra.
> Has anyone bothered to ask why of all places?
What? Gold plates in a stone box, you say?
http://www.artbulla.com/zion/batcreek.html
"This gold plate of Darius proclaims his majesty and the vast extent of his
Persian empire. It was buried in a neatly made stone box in 516-515 B.C. at
Persepolis. This gold plate and its duplicate silver tablet were discovered
in 1933. Similarly, the Nephites of the sixth century B.C. kept two sets of
records on gold plates, one of which was buried in a stone box in 421 A.D."
Courtesy Paul R. Cheesman.
> It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if a young impressionable lad
> grows up in an area where preachers are revered and where anyone can win
> the lottery by just finding that one winning treasure map, that he would
> fabricate an entire religion that would enscounce himself in a position of
> spiritual leadership based on him discovering hidden treasure. Today's
> equivalent would be to win the lottery and then buy a political office.
>
> So of course he found buried GOLD plates, and of course it was alleged to
> have been written a "long, long time ago", and in a completely unknown
> tongue that required translation by imaginary magic fairy glasses. This
> is the plot line for a Raider of the Lost Ark series. This kind of story
> would titilate the rubes and the hicks who didn't get their Amway position
> in the last Great Revival tent carnival.
What you call "imaginary magic fairy glasses" are called seer stones or
a.k.a Urim and Thummim. This device was the means by which Joseph Smith
translated the ancient writings on the gold plates. Here from Joseph Smith's
own words from "Joseph Smith History" is his account of the meeting with the
resurrected Prophet from the Book of Mormon (you do believe in the
resurrection, don't you?) Moroni who told him the location of the gold
plates.
(Moroni appears to Joseph Smith-Joseph's name is to be known for good and
evil among all nations-Moroni tells him of the Book of Mormon and of the
coming judgments of the Lord, and quotes many scriptures-The hiding place of
the gold plates is revealed-Moroni continues to instruct the Prophet.)
(Verses 27-54.)
27 I continued to pursue my common vocations in life until the
twenty-first of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-three, all
the time suffering severe persecution at the hands of all classes of men,
both religious and irreligious, because I continued to affirm that I had
seen a vision.
28 During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the
vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three-having been forbidden
to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender
years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have
treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored
in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me-I was left to all
kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently
fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the
foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers
temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no
one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to
commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and
sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that
character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had
been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my
youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament.
29 In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness
and imperfections; when, on the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first
of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself
to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins
and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my
state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a
divine manifestation, as I previously had one.
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light
appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter
than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside,
standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness
beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly
thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands
were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his
feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck
were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this
robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was
glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The
room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his
person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left
me.
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent
from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a
work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among
all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil
spoken of among all people.
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an
account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from
whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel
was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones,
fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and
Thummim-deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these
stones were what constituted "seers" in ancient or former times; and that
God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.
Now how would a 17 year old unschooled simple farm boy know what a "Urim and
Thummim" is ? How could he have had fabricated that ? The Bible talks about
the Urim and Thummim used by Seers in ancient times.
30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the
Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the
LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his
heart before the LORD continually.
Exodus 28:30
8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the
Urim and the Thummim.
Leviticus 8:8
And if Joseph Smith did imagine up Moroni, why would he reference Moroni
quoting the following verses from the OT books of Malachi, Isaiah, and Joel,
huh?
36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of
the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi; and
he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with
a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting
the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus:
37 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the
proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble; for they that
come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them
neither root nor branch.
38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto
you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the
hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of
the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth
would be utterly wasted at his coming.
40 In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying
that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts,
twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New
Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet
come when "they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among
the people," but soon would come.
41 He also quoted the second chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse
to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to
be. And he further stated that the fulness of the Gentiles was soon to come
in. He quoted many other passages of scripture, and offered many
explanations which cannot be mentioned here.
42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had
spoken-for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled-I
should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim
and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I
did I should be destroyed. While he was conversing with me about the plates,
the vision was opened to my mind that I could see the place where the plates
were deposited, and that so clearly and distinctly that I knew the place
again when I visited it.
43 After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather
immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it
continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around
him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven,
and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it
had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.
44 I lay musing on the singularity of the scene, and marveling greatly at
what had been told to me by this extraordinary messenger; when, in the midst
of my meditation, I suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to
get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was
again by my bedside.
45 He commenced, and again related the very same things which he had done
at his first visit, without the least variation; which having done, he
informed me of great judgments which were coming upon the earth, with great
desolations by famine, sword, and pestilence; and that these grievous
judgments would come on the earth in this generation. Having related these
things, he again ascended as he had done before.
46 By this time, so deep were the impressions made on my mind, that sleep
had fled from my eyes, and I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I had
both seen and heard. But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same
messenger at my bedside, and heard him rehearse or repeat over again to me
the same things as before; and added a caution to me, telling me that Satan
would try to tempt me (in consequence of the indigent circumstances of my
father's family), to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich. This he
forbade me, saying that I must have no other object in view in getting the
plates but to glorify God, and must not be influenced by any other motive
than that of building his kingdom; otherwise I could not get them.
47 After this third visit, he again ascended into heaven as before, and I
was again left to ponder on the strangeness of what I had just experienced;
when almost immediately after the heavenly messenger had ascended from me
for the third time, the cock crowed, and I found that day was approaching,
so that our interviews must have occupied the whole of that night.
48 I shortly after arose from my bed, and, as usual, went to the necessary
labors of the day; but, in attempting to work as at other times, I found my
strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable. My father, who was
laboring along with me, discovered something to be wrong with me, and told
me to go home. I started with the intention of going to the house; but, in
attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength
entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was
quite unconscious of anything.
49 The first thing that I can recollect was a voice speaking unto me,
calling me by name. I looked up, and beheld the same messenger standing over
my head, surrounded by light as before. He then again related unto me all
that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my
father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.
50 I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole
matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do
as commanded by the messenger. I left the field, and went to the place where
the messenger had told me the plates were deposited; and owing to the
distinctness of the vision which I had had concerning it, I knew the place
the instant that I arrived there.
51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York,
stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the
neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a
stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This
stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner
towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the
ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.
52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under
the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in,
and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the
breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was
formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of
the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay
the plates and the other things with them.
53 I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger,
and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet
arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me
that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and
that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until
the time should come for obtaining the plates.
54 Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year,
and at each time I found the same messenger there, and received instruction
and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the
Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be
conducted in the last days.
It's just the little details in the account of Smith's vision of Moroni that
help add credibility to it. It's strange that Smith said Moroni visited him
3 consecutive times that night giving the exact same message and then the
next day while working with his father on their farm, he had the same vision
of Moroni. Funny how, he said Moroni instructed him not to take out the gold
plates until exactly 4 years later but he was to visit Moroni at the
location of the plates annually up till the time of the 4th year.
(Joseph Smith marries Emma Hale-He receives the gold plates from Moroni and
translates some of the characters-Martin Harris shows characters and
translation to Professor Anthon, who says: "I cannot read a sealed
book." )(Verses 55-65.)
55 As my father's worldly circumstances were very limited, we were under
the necessity of laboring with our hands, hiring out by day's work and
otherwise, as we could get opportunity. Sometimes we were at home, and
sometimes abroad, and by continuous labor were enabled to get a comfortable
maintenance.
56 In the year 1823 my father's family met with a great affliction by the
death of my eldest brother, Alvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired
with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango
county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having
been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of
Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order,
if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took
me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I
continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking,
and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it.
Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger.
57 During the time that I was thus employed, I was put to board with a Mr.
Isaac Hale, of that place; it was there I first saw my wife (his daughter),
Emma Hale. On the 18th of January, 1827, we were married, while I was yet
employed in the service of Mr. Stoal.
58 Owing to my continuing to assert that I had seen a vision, persecution
still followed me, and my wife's father's family were very much opposed to
our being married. I was, therefore, under the necessity of taking her
elsewhere; so we went and were married at the house of Squire Tarbill, in
South Bainbridge, Chenango county, New York. Immediately after my marriage,
I left Mr. Stoal's, and went to my father's, and farmed with him that
season.
59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and
Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one
thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of
another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly
messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be
responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through
any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my
endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them,
they should be protected.
60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to
keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had
done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was
it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get
them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for
that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and
multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible.
But by the wisdom of God, they remained safe in my hands, until I had
accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to
arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and
he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one
thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight.
61 The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand
tongues was all the time employed in circulating falsehoods about my father's
family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it
would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that
I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to
Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to
start-being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was
no probability that we would ever be otherwise-in the midst of our
afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris,
who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr.
Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New
York, and a farmer of respectability.
62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination
in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying
the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and
by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did
between the time I arrived at the house of my wife's father, in the month of
December, and the February following.
63 Sometime in this month of February, the aforementioned Mr. Martin
Harris came to our place, got the characters which I had drawn off the
plates, and started with them to the city of New York. For what took place
relative to him and the characters, I refer to his own account of the
circumstances, as he related them to me after his return, which was as
follows:
64 "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had
been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon,
a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated
that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen
translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet
translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and
Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate,
certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that
the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I
took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the
house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found
out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered
that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.
65 "He then said to me, 'Let me see that certificate.' I accordingly took
it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to
pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels,
and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I
informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden
to bring them. He replied, 'I cannot read a sealed book.' I left him and
went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said
respecting both the characters and the translation."
So from reading the account of Martin Harris' showing the translated
characters and the translation from the gold plates to Professor Charles
Anthon who verified the the characters and the translation of the characters
are authentic with a certificate (although due to his sectarian tradition
bigotry like your kind have he tore up the certificate) and second
verification by Dr. Mitchell we know on top of the other analysis of Joseph
Smith's experience with Moroni that there is nothing to find fault with
Smith's experience (except in the eyes of anti-Christ wannabe servants of
Christ sectarians.)
But this wasn't the end of Joseph Smith's early run of visions as a young
Prophet. He was anointed the Aaronic Priesthood along with Oliver Cowdery
and they baptized each other for the remission of sins and not too much time
later they received the fulness of the Gospel by both receiving the
Melchizedek Priesthood which was necessary to restore the Church of Jesus
Christ as existed almost 1800 years before the apostasy of the Church. The
Martin Luther Protestant Reformation was a prepratory stage for the return
of the Priesthood.
(Oliver Cowdery serves as scribe in translating the Book of Mormon-Joseph
and Oliver receive the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist-They are
baptized, ordained, and receive the spirit of prophecy. )(Verses 66-75.)
66 On the 5th day of April, 1829, Oliver Cowdery came to my house, until
which time I had never seen him. He stated to me that having been teaching
school in the neighborhood where my father resided, and my father being one
of those who sent to the school, he went to board for a season at his house,
and while there the family related to him the circumstances of my having
received the plates, and accordingly he had come to make inquiries of me.
67 Two days after the arrival of Mr. Cowdery (being the 7th of April) I
commenced to translate the Book of Mormon, and he began to write for me.
* * * * * *
68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month
(May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of
the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found
mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed,
praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a
cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the
Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and
of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission
of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons
of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands
for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us
hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions
that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize
me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and
afterwards he baptized me-after which I laid my hands upon his head and
ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on
me and ordained me to the same Priesthood-for so we were commanded.*
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this
Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called
John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction
of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of
Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on
us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he
(Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that
we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been
baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly
Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell
upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly
come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had
the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise
of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this
generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and
rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid
open to our understandings, and the btrue meaning and intention of their
more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could
attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we
were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the
Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution
which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.
75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this,
too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only
counteracted by the influence of my wife's father's family (under Divine
providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to
mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of
translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us
protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay.
Something to think about it that is already surely in your minds. Who else
talks about so strenuously for baptism for remission of sins than the
Mormons and the need for the Melchizedek Priesthood? No one. Could Joseph
Smith just made all this up? Having considered all the facts only a
disingenuous person would continue to blabber false accusations against the
Prophet Joseph Smith.
I mean, since when do angels
> tell someone that they aren't the "right person" and then say the "right
> person" is someone who will be dead when its their time to act? This
> should be a major clue that the "angels" are not of God. Furthermore,
> what's with the necromancers? Didn't King Saul lose favor with God for
> consulting a necromancer? This whole story about the plates receives the
> loud guffaws that it deserves, and sends all but the most gullible running
> off.
Why is believing in angels in the past from the Bible so much more
believable ? How about the account of Jacob wrestling an angel all night
long and being renamed by the angel Israel? Or the angel who stopped
Balaam's donkey from moving as they were moving forward? Or the burning bush
speaking to Moses? Or the angel holding up a sword standing in air in front
of David? Or an angel appearing in front of Samson's parents telling them
that the mother would conceive of a child who would deliver Israel from
bondage from the Philistines? Or an angel appearing in front of Zacharias,
John the Baptist's father, telling him that his wife Elizabeth would
conceive despite their old age? Why in your false opinion were the
ministering of angels more viable back then? You are like sectarian
preachers described below:
(Some preachers and other professors of religion reject account of First
Vision-Persecution heaped upon Joseph Smith-He testifies of the reality of
the vision.)(Verses 21-26.)
21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with
one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned
religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I
took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was
greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only
lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there
were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such
things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more
of them.
22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great
deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause
of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an
obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my
circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world,
yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public
mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among
all the sects-all united to persecute me.
23 It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very
strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age,
and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty
maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient
importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular
sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most
bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was
often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
24 However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have
thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before
King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a
light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him;
some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and
reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen
a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not
make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he
knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and
heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think
or believe otherwise.
25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of
that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and
though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet
it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking
all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my
heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a
vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think
to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew
it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do
it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under
condemnation.
26 I had now got my mind satisfied so far as the sectarian world was
concerned-that it was not my duty to join with any of them, but to continue
as I was until further directed. I had found the testimony of James to be
true-that a man who lacked wisdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be
upbraided.
> It also explains why he made the stupid prediction that the financially
> strapped struggling "church" would discover "hidden treasure". If the
> parishioners believed it once with the gold plates, maybe they won't
> desert him if he makes another winning lottery ticket prediction again.
> It was an act of desperation, not one of proving some divine blessing.
>
> So given that his background doesn't recommend him as a prophet, or as one
> who would win the lottery ticket of allegedly discovering these gold
> plates using demonic "seer stones", "necromancers", dead brothers, and
> greedy treasure hunters, why, after using the tools and symbology of the
> occult, would God entrust Joe to godly things? Think about it. The
> united States was largely made up of reformed Christians who already had
> strong knowledge and fear of the Holy Bible. Why not expand operations
> in a pagan area of the world like the Far East? God hates Chinamen?
> What we have is wild stories of Jesus Christ and Joe Smith preaching to
> the choir rather than evangelizing the lost.
Ephraim is the birthright tribe. United States is Ephraim. Through Ephraim
the Gospel has been preached around the world.
> The usual procedure found in Scripture is that the child is called out
> into the ministry of a prophet through revelation to the parents first,
> and then the child is tutored in the ways of the LORD for many decades
> before that middle-aged adult begins the ministry. Joseph Smith had NONE
> of that. His own biography shows violation after violation of that
> Biblical manner and path. There is a reason why God went through the
> parents first and had the child go through decades of preparation before
> ministry - to eliminate the possibility of charlatans popping up and
> claiming to be prophets. Baby Moses, Samuel, John the Baptist and many
> others are shown to go down this path. Prophets like Elijah, the Bible
> does not desire to show us his character, only his ministry. Yet, we know
> of Elijah raising the dead and calling down fire from the sky. What are
> Joseph Smith's bona fides? His allegiance with demon and cultic talismans
> to discover things that are allegedly of God (and just incidentally are
> written on highly valued treasure which was the rage at that time). Did
> God write the Decalogue on gold or on stone? You have more red flags
> than May Day in Red Square.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:29
Paul who in practically all his writings was inspired by the Spirit wrote
the above and knows the verse to be true better than anyone because he was
in an unrepentant state persecuting the Saints when on road to Damascus with
some follower he saw Jesus Christ in a vision that his followers saw as
well.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he
that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:34-37
Apostle John who wrote the last book in the NT in your Bible was handpicked
by Jesus. So were all His other 12 Apostles. What about Jeremiah, Isaiah,
Ezekiel, or Amos? They were all called of God personally. So you're just
fabricating your own doctrine on what a prophet should be misleading people.
We have the written testimonies of three credible witnesses, Martin Harris,
Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer who saw an angel turn over the pages of
the gold plates in bright daylight. Even though at one point each left the
church (2 came back except Whitmer), they never in their absence from the
Church ever denied their testimonies. Never.
I am not a Mormon and never have been but do believe in Mormonism (I believe
the modern Mormon Church are in apostasy that they have departed from the
correct teachings of the early Mormons.) I have mainly posted to only Mormon
newsgroups but have decided now to make a foray into many Christian
newsgroups. I am not trying to be intrusive or impose myself upon others but
sincerely believe that there are many doctrines of Mormonism that can answer
many of the questions that Christians have about their faith. I know there
must be many Christians out there who are curious of the Mormon faith as
there are a lot of misinformation spread about it so I would like clarify
these issues. I believe in an open dialogue and hope these posts can be of
great benefit.
THE THREE WITNESSES
A Response to the Utah Evangel
by
Ogden Kraut
Ever since the restoration of the Gospel of Christ and the re-establishment
of His Church, there have been a multitude of anti-Mormon writers pouring
out their venom against it. Most of this opposition comes from apostate
Mormons. That is understandable because Christ also suffered most from
apostates. Nevertheless, there should be some response made in vindication.
Oliver Cowdery said it best:
Since then our opposer, have been thus kind to introduce our cause before
the public, it is no more than just that a correct account should be given;
and since they have invariably sought to cast a shade over the truth, and
hinder its influence from gaining ascendancy, it is also proper that it
should be vindicated by laying before the world a correct statement of
events as they have transpired from time to time. (Letters by Oliver Cowdery
to W. W. Phelps, p. 15
This response is very brief in comparison to the volumes that could be
written in answer to the many publications by the anti-Mormons and
ex-Mormons. These people publish newspapers, books, pamphlets and produce
films and videos with a critical and negative attitude of the liberal left
wing of our "modern counterfeit Christians." their entire gospel is
anti-Mormonism. The following article comes from one such newspaper:
[2] The Three Witnesses
by Robert McKay
In the front of every Book of Mormon is found a statement called the
Testimony of Three Witnesses. It is signed by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer,
and Martin Harris. The Testimony says in substance that these three men saw
an angel holding the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was
supposedly translated.
The Mormon church claims that these three men were sober, steady
individuals who would not lie, who could not be easily fooled, and whose
word was reliable. The facts are otherwise. Rather than being unimpeachable,
these witnesses and their testimony are worthless in determining the truth
about the Book of Mormon.
Oliver Cowdery, the first the three witnesses, was not an upstanding
citizen. Among other things, he was a counterfeiter. A booklet published in
Warsaw, Illinois, states, "Joe (Joseph Smith) told me, that in Ohio he...and
Oliver Cowdery...were engaged in a bogus establishment" (The Adventures and
Experience of Joseph H. Jackson, pg. 15). A letter signed by 84 Mormons
declared that "Oliver Cowdery...united with a gang of counterfeiters"
(quoted in Senate Document 189, pg. 8). In 1838 Cowdery was tried before the
Far West (Missouri) High Council. The eighth charge against him was, "For
disgracing the Church by being connected in the bogus business." This charge
was "sustained" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, pgs. 16-17).
The LDS church claims that not one of the witnesses ever denied his
testimony. Yet a poem publishes in 1841 asks if it proves "Book of Mormon
not his (God's) word Because denied, by Oliver?" (Times and Seasons, Vol. 2.
pg. 482). Apparently Cowdery wasn't as sure of his statements as Mormons
would like to think.
David Whitmer was also involved in counterfeiting. His character is further
revealed by Joseph Smith's statement that Whitmer was a "dumb ass" (History
of the Church, Vol. 3. pg. 228). Whitmer himself declared, "if you believe
my testimony to the Book of Mormon...then I tell you that in June, 1838, God
spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens, and told me to
`separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints (sic)...'" (An Address to
All Believers in Christ, pg. 27). According to this statement, if Whitmer's
testimony to the Book of Mormon is true then the LDS church has apostatized.
But the church denies that what Whitmer says here is true, thus casting
doubt on his testimony to the Book of Mormon.
The third witness, Martin Harris, was no better. It was Harris who lost the
116 pages of the book of Lehi, forcing Joseph Smith to start "translating"
all over again. Because of this incident. Harris was called "a wicked man,
Who...has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God"
(Doctrine & Covenants 3:12-13). An affidavit made in 1833 declares, "I have
been acquainted with Martin Harris, about thirty years... his moral and
religious character was such, as not to entitle him to respect among his
neighbors...He was first an orthadox (sic) Quaker, then a Universalist, next
a Restorationer, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon"
(Mormonism Unvailed, pgs. 260-261). An official Mormon publication said of
Harris, "he changed his religious position eight times" after accepting the
Book of Mormon (Improvement Era, March 69, pg. 63). One of the groups he
joined was the Shakers, who had their own "latter day scripture." At one
point Harris claimed that he believed in the Shakers more strongly than he
did his own testimony to the Book of Mormon (Martin Harris - Witness and
Benefactor to the Book of Mormon, pg. 52).
All three of these witnesses were excommunicated from the Mormon church.
Joseph Smith wrote, "Such characters as...David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and
Martin Harris, are too mean to mention, and we had liked to have forgotten
them" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, pg. 232).
Thus we see that the Testimony of Three Witnesses was signed by men who
were unreliable, who denied their testimony, and who were condemned by those
they aided. To hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as
proof that the Book of Mormon is of God is analogous to letting one
rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted.
THE UTAH EVANGEL
Aug.-Sept. 1985
[3] To recap, then, Robert McKay's article makes the following charges
against the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon:
1. Oliver Cowdery denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon.
2. Oliver Cowdery was a counterfeiter.
3. David Whitmer was a counterfeiter.
4. David Whitmer was told by God to leave the Saints, inferring that the
Church had apostatized.
5. Martin Harris's "moral and religious character was such, as not to
entitle him to respect among his neighbors, . . . " and also that "he
changed his religious position eight times...."
6. The three witnesses were unreliable, denied their testimony, and were
condemned by those they aided. Their testimony is like "letting one
rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted."
Oftentimes such accusations are false, overemphasized, or without real
proof, as is the case with the above charges. Without delving extensively
into the subject, here are a few explanations and clarifications that should
be considered in response to these charges by McKay.
Charge 1. Oliver Cowdery denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon.
In addition to the testimony given in the Book of Mormon, Cowdery made
similar positive statements even after he had left the LDS Church. The
following report was printed in 1910 by Judge C. M. Nielsen of Salt Lake
City. He stated that while he was traveling as a missionary in Minnesota
during the year of 1884, he met a wealthy farmer who became especially
interested in him because he came from Utah. The farmer stated that when he
was 21, an interesting event occurred at the time he was working on his
father's farm in Michigan. On one of his days off, he went to town where the
following incident occurred, as retold by Judge Nielsen:
"Near the courthouse I saw a great many people assembling and others
walking that way, so I went over to see what was up. There was a jam in the
courtroom, but being young and strong, I pushed my way close up to the
center, where I found the prosecuting attorney addressing the court and jury
in a murder trial. The prosecuting attorney was Oliver Cowdery, and he was
giving his opening address in behalf of the state. (After he was
excommunicated from the Church, Oliver Cowdery studied law, practicing in
Ohio, Wisconsin and then Michigan, where he was elected prosecuting
attorney.) After Cowdery sat down, the attorney representing the prisoner
arose and with taunting sarcasm said: `May it please the court and gentlemen
of the jury, I see one Oliver Cowdery is going to reply to my argument. I
wish he would tell us something about that golden [4] Bible that Joe Smith
dug out of the hill; something about the great fraud he perpetrated upon the
American people whereby he gained thousands of dollars. Now he seems to know
so much about this poor prisoner, I wonder if he has forgotten all about Joe
Smith and his connection with him.' The speaker all the while sneering and
pointing his finger in scorn at Cowdery in the hope of making him ridiculous
before the court and jury.
"Everybody present began to wonder if they had been guilty of making such
a mistake as choosing a Mormon for prosecuting attorney. Even the judge on
the bench began looking with suspicion and distrust at the prosecuting
attorney. The prisoner and his attorney became elated at the effect of the
speech. People began asking, `Is he a Mormon?' Everybody wondered what
Cowdery would say against such foul charges.
"Finally Oliver Cowdery arose, calm as a summer morning. I was within
three feet of him. There was no hesitation, no fear, no anger in his voice,
as he said: `May it please the court, and gentlemen of the jury, my brother
attorney on the other side has charged me with connection with Joseph Smith
and the golden Bible. The responsibility has been placed upon me, and I
cannot escape reply. Before God and man I dare not deny what I have said,
and what my testimony contains as written and printed on the front page of
the Book of Mormon. May it please your honor and gentlemen of the jury, this
I say, I saw the angel and heard his voice--how can I deny it? It happened
in the daytime when the sun was shining bright in the firmament; not in the
night when I was asleep. That glorious messenger from heaven, dressed in
white, standing above the ground, in a glory I have never seen anything to
compare with--the sun insignificant in comparison--and this personage told
us if we denied that testimony, there is no forgiveness in this life nor in
the world to come. Now how can I deny it--I dare not; I will not!'"
The man who related this to me was a prominent man in that state; he was a
rich man, a man who has held offices of trust from the people--a man of
respect, one when you look into his face you will not doubt. To strengthen
his statement this man, who knew nothing of "Mormon" history, said Oliver
Cowdery mentioned something he wanted me to explain--that the angel took
back a part that was not translated. We know this and that part of the gold
plates then withheld will be revealed at some future time.
"Since I heard Oliver Cowdery speak," continued my host, "I have not had
peace for these many years. I want to know more about your people. I felt
when I listened to Oliver Cowdery talking in the courtroom, he was more than
an ordinary man. If you can show us that you have what Oliver Cowdery
testified to, we shall be glad to receive it." (Liahona, August 30, 1910)
From this account it is very clear that even after Oliver left the Church,
he still did not deny his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Furthermore, he
had no intention of denying it in the future.
[5] Ten years after Oliver left the Church he returned to it. In October
1848 he arrived in Kanesville, Iowa, with his wife and daughter. He attended
a Church conference there and was invite to speak. Bishop Reuben Miller made
this verbatim account of Oliver's testimony:
"Friends and Brethren--My name is Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery. In the early
history of this Church I stood identified with her, and was one in her
councils. True it is that the gifts and callings of God are without
repentance. Not because I was better than the rest of mankind was I called;
but, to fulfill the purposes of God, He called me a high and holy calling.
"I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as
it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated it by
the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or, as it
is called by that book, `holy interpreters.' I beheld with my eyes and
handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also
saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the `holy interpreters.' That
book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it; Mr. Spaulding did not write
it; I wrote it myself as it fell frown the lips of the Prophet. It contains
the Everlasting Gospel, and came forth to the children of men in fulfillment
of the revelations of John, where he says he saw an angel come with the
Everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It
contains the principles of salvation; and if you, my hearers, will walk by
its light and obey its precepts, you will be saved with an everlasting
salvation in the kingdom of God on high. Brother Hyde has just said that it
is very important that we keep and walk in the true channel, in order to
avoid the sand-bars. This is true. The channel is here. The holy Priesthood
is here.
"I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from
heaven and conferred on us, or restored, the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood,
and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while
the earth stands.
"I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood
was conferred by holy angels from on high. This Priesthood we then conferred
on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was
then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of
time. This holy Priesthood, or authority, we then conferred upon many and is
just as good and valid as though God had done it in person.
"I laid my hands upon that man--yes, I laid my right hand upon his head
(pointing to Brother Hyde), and I conferred upon him this Priesthood, and he
holds that Priesthood now. He was also called through me, by the prayer of
faith, an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ."
In the early part of November following, Elder Hyde called a High Council
meeting in the log Tabernacle to consider the case of Oliver Cowdery; having
been cut off by the voice of a High Council, it was thought that, if he was
restored, he should be restored by the voice of a similar body. Before this
body Brother Cowdery said:
[6] "Brethren, for a number of years I have been separated from you. I now
desire to come back. I wish to come humbly and to be one in your midst. I
seek no station; I only wish to be identified with you. I am out of the
Church. I am not a member of the Church, but I wish to become a member of
it. l wish to come in at the door. I know the door. I have not come here to
seek precedence. I come humbly and throw myself upon the decisions of this
body, knowing as I do that its decisions are right and should be obeyed."
Brother George W. Harris, President of the Council, moved that Brother
Cowdery be received. Considerable discussion took place in relation to a
certain letter which, it was alleged, Brother Cowdery had written to David
Whitmer. Brother Cowdery again rose and said:
"If there be any person that has aught against me, let him declare it. My
coming back and humbly asking to become a member, through the door, covers
the whole ground. I acknowledge this authority." (Mill. Star 21:544-546)
At this conference Orson Hyde made a motion that Oliver Cowdery be received
back into the Church, which was seconded and carried unanimously. Shortly
afterwards Oliver was again baptized and confirmed a member of the Church.
Here again Oliver gave a strong confirmation of his previous testimony.
There were no qualms, side-stepping or excuses, which would have been the
case if he had previously denied that testimony.
After Oliver Cowdery had rejoined the Saints, he desired to journey out
west to Salt Lake City. However, a severe snow storm compelled him to remain
in Iowa for a couple of weeks. Samuel W. Richards was privileged to spend
much of this time with Oliver, and he wrote the following account of those
visits:
I had but the fall before returned from my first mission to the British
Isles, and was in the spirit of inquiry as to all matters of early history
and experiences in the Church, and soon found there was no reserve on the
part of Oliver in answering my many questions. In doing so his mind seemed
as fresh in the recollection of events, which occurred more than a score of
years before, as though they were but of yesterday. * * *
To hear him describe, in his pleasant but earnest manner, the personality
of those heavenly messengers, with whom he and the Prophet had so freely
held converse, was enchanting to my soul. Their heavenly appearance, clothed
in robes of purity; the influence of their presence, so lovely and serene;
their eyes, that seemed to penetrate to the very depths of the soul,
together with the color of the eyes that gazed upon them, were all so
beautifully related as to almost make one feel that they were then
present....
Before taking his departure he wrote and left with the writer of this, the
following statement, which we believe to be his last living testimony,
though oft repeated, of the wonderful manifestations which brought the
authority of God to men on the earth:
[7] "While darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people; long
after the authority to administer in holy things had been taken away, the
Lord opened the heavens and sent forth His word for the salvation of Israel.
In fulfillment of the sacred scriptures, the everlasting gospel was
proclaimed by the mighty angel (Moroni) who, clothed with the authority of
his mission, gave glory to God in the highest. This gospel is the `stone
taken from the mountain without hands.' John the Baptist, holding the keys
of the Aaronic Priesthood; Peter, James and John, holding the keys of the
Melchizedek Priesthood, have also ministered for those who shall be heirs of
salvation, and with these administrations, ordained men to the same
Priesthoods. These Priesthoods, with their authority, are now, and must
continue to be, in the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. Blessed is the Elder who has received the same, and thrice blessed
and holy is he who shall endure to the end.
"Accept assurances, dear brother, of the unfeigned prayer of him who, in
connection with Joseph the Seer, was blessed with the above ministrations,
and who earnestly and devoutly hopes to meet you in the celestial glory.
(Oliver Cowdery, to Samuel W. Richards, January 13, 1849; see Improvement
Era 2:90-96)
Edward Stevenson also relates the following:
"I have often heard him <Oliver Cowdery> bear a faithful testimony to the
restoration of the gospel by the visitation of an angel, in whose presence
he stood in company with the Prophet Joseph Smith and David Whitmer. He
testified that he beheld the plates, the leaves being turned over by the
angel, whose voice he heard, and that they were commanded as witnesses to
bear a faithful testimony to the world of the vision that they were favored
to behold, and that the translation from the plates in the Book of Mormon
was accepted of the Lord, and that it should go forth to the world, and no
power on earth should stop its progress. Although for a time Oliver Cowdery
absented himself from the body of the Church, I never have known a time when
he faltered or was recreant to the trust so sacredly entrusted to him by an
angel from heaven." (Mill. Star 48:420)
Oliver Cowdery died on March 3rd, 1850, at Richmond, Missouri. Phineas
Young, who was present at his death, wrote the following:
"His last moments were spent in bearing testimony of the truth of the
gospel revealed through Joseph Smith, and the power of the holy Priesthood
which he had received through his administrations."
And . . .
Oliver Cowdery's half-sister, Lucy P. Young a widow of the late Phineas H.
Young, relates that Oliver Cowdery just before breathing his last, asked his
attendants to raise him up in bed, that [8] he might talk to the family and
his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the
teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would
do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, "Lay me down and
let me fall asleep." A few moments later he died without a struggle.
(Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen, 1:251)
In 1878 David Whitmer told Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith that:
"Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw. After shaking hands with the
family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, `Now I lay me down for
the last time: I am going to my Savior;' and he died immediately with a
smile on his face." (Mill. Star 40:774)
As a witness to the Book of Mormon, Oliver died faithful to his testimony.
There are many accounts of that testimony given while he was a member of the
Church, after he left the Church, and when he returned. There are no
conclusive proofs that he ever denied his witnessing the golden plates. Any
accounts otherwise were based on rumor and are without verification.
Charge 2. Oliver Cowdery was a counterfeiter.
From all available research concerning Oliver's involvement in some bogus
money charge, there seems to be only rumors and accusations against him
without any definite proof. His name had been slandered by it, and it
somewhat dampened the reputation of the Church, but I can find no facts to
bear it out. Cowdery never went to prison for such a "crime"; there were no
trial or sentence held against him; nor has there since been any evidence to
prove his "guilt". It is difficult to defend or expose a charge which has no
evidence either for or against it.
But let's consider the type of characters who originated these charges--The
84 "Mormons" who signed the statement charging Oliver Cowdery as being
connected with counterfeiters were not those considered to be orthodox
Mormons. Many of these "Mormons" who testified in the Senate Document were
Sampson Avard, Reed Peck, George Hinkle, John Corrill and others of like
character. A statement by Nancy Rigdon sheds light on the character of
Sampson Avard:
I have heard Sampson Avard say that he would swear to a lie to accomplish
an object; that he had told many a lie, and would do so again. (Senate
Document 189, p. 40)
The same document contained testimony against Joseph Smith and all the
Twelve Apostles, accusing them of "high treason against the State for
murder, burglary, arson, robbery, and larceny." These were charges, too, but
proof was another thing.
[9] The key figure in pressing these counterfeit charges was Joseph H.
Jackson who published them in a booklet in Warsaw, Illinois. By his own
confession, he was a fugitive from the law, and had "committed the darkest
crimes", probably even being guilty himself of counterfeiting. The Warsaw
Signal, with its editor, T. C. Sharp, was a constant source of anti-Mormon
propaganda. Nearly every apostate had joined hands with the mobocrats and
anti-Mormons. These were the "men who had used their uttermost endeavors for
more than two years to incite the people to acts of mob violence against the
saints, . . ." (C.H.C. 2:235) Sometimes they would set fires to buildings
and blame the Mormons for it. From the little evidence available, it appears
that counterfeiting was another false charge against the leaders of the
Church.
In a special Nauvoo City Council session "Theodore Turley, a mechanic, who
being sworn, said that the Laws (William and Wilson), had brought bogus dies
to him to fix." (D.H.C. 6:435) They were apostates trying to bring about the
destruction of Joseph and Hyrum, along with most of the other leaders of the
Church. In that same meeting Hyrum Smith declared that he knew that "Jackson
was engaged in trying to make bogus, which was his principle business."
(Ibid., 6:435) Another witness, Lorenzo Wasson was sworn in and said,
"Joseph H. Jackson had told witness that bogus-making was going on in the
city; but it was too damned small business. Wanted witness to help him to
procure money, for the General (Smith) was afraid to go into it; and with
$500 he could get an engraving for bills on the Bank of Missouri, and one on
the State of New York, and could make money." (D.H.C. 6:436)
The City Council was aware of the bogus money being made in and around
Nauvoo and was trying to get evidence of who was responsible for it. Another
witness was called up by the name of Warren Smith, who stated:
F. M. Higbee came to him, and proposed to have him go in as a partner in
making bogus money. Higbee said he would not work for a living; that witness
might go in with him if he would advance fifty dollars; and showed him
(witness) a half-dollar which he said was made in his dies. (D.H.C. 6:447)
Joseph Smith, as Mayor of Nauvoo, wanted this counterfeiting press to be
dispatched as he did the press of the Nauvoo Expositor. Both were apparently
being operated by the same people. The Warsaw Signal newspaper was
constantly hurling malicious and slanderous attacks against the Saints,
occasionally inciting mob action against them. As a result, Joseph made the
following announcement:
Proclamation
By virtue of my office as Mayor of the city of Nauvoo, I do hereby
strictly enjoin it upon the municipal officers and citizens of said city to
use all honorable and lawful means in their power to assist me in
maintaining the public peace and common quiet of said city. As attempts have
already been made to excite the jealousy and prejudice of the people of the
surrounding country, by libels and [10] slanderous articles upon the
citizens and City Council, for the purpose of destroying the charter of said
city, and for the purpose of raising suspicion, wrath, and indignation among
a certain class of the less honorable portion of mankind, to commit acts of
violence upon the innocent and unsuspecting, in a certain newspaper called
the Nauvoo Expositor, recently established for such purposes in said city,
and which has been destroyed as a nuisance, according to the provision of
the charter. I further call upon every officer, authority, and citizen to be
vigilant in preventing, by wisdom the promulgation of false statements,
libels, slanders, or any other malicious or evil-designed concern that may
be put in operation to excite and ferment the passions of men to rebel
against the rights and privileges of the city, citizens, or laws of the
land; to be ready to suppress the gathering of mobs; to repel, by gentle
means and noble exertion, every foul scheme of unprincipled men to disgrace
and dishonor the city, or state, or any of their legally-constituted
authorities; and, finally to keep the peace by being cool, considerate,
virtuous, unoffending, manly, and patriotic, as the true sons of liberty
ever have been, and honorably maintain the precious boon our illustrious
fathers won.
In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and affixed the seal of
said corporation at the city of Nauvoo, this 11th day of June,
1844. --Signed Joseph Smith, Mayor. (D.H.C. 6:449)
In the session of the City Council, Jackson was exposed as a counterfeiter
and a murderer. Brigham Young spoke at the trial of Sidney Rigdon and
declared:
John C. Bennett said in his exposure, he knew all of Brother Joseph's
secrets, and he would publish them. Joseph H. Jackson, says he has published
all Joseph's secrets, but nobody believes their tales, because they lie! And
if Sidney Rigdon undertakes to publish all of our secrets, as he says, he
will lie the first jump he takes.... Any man that says the Twelve are bogus
makers, or adulterers, or wicked men, is a liar; and all who say such things
shall have the fate of liars, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Who is there that has seen us do such things? No man. (Times and Seasons
5:664)
The publishers of the Nauvoo Expositor were friends of Joseph Jackson and
they defended him when they wrote:
We have reason to believe, from our acquaintance with Mr. Jackson, and our
own observation, that the statements he makes are true; and in view of these
facts, we ask, in the name of heaven, where is the safety of our lives and
liberties, when placed at the disposal of such heaven daring, hell
deserving, God forsaken villains. (Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, p. 3)
[11] It is interesting to note the method they have of twisting things
around because as they were talking about fear for their "lives and
liberties", they themselves were in the process of plotting to kill Joseph,
Hyrum and others, and driving the Saints from the state in the middle of
winter.
Oliver Cowdery was aware of some others in and around Nauvoo that had made
an attempt to create bogus money according to Frederick G. Williams.
<Frederick G.> Williams, who vacillated between being a dissenter and a
faithful member of the Church, testified that Oliver had personally informed
him of a man in the Church by the name of Davis who would compound metal and
make dies which could print money that could not be detected from the real
thing. (A History of the Latter-day Saints in Northern Missouri from 1836 to
1839, BYU, 1965, p. 146)
Claims were made that Cowdery was an accessory and that he had a warrant
issued against him, but according to all available information, he was never
convicted or proven guilty.
Most of the counterfeit coins were turning up in Warsaw, as admitted by the
Warsaw Signal. Could it be that the bulk of counterfeiting was actually done
in Warsaw? Perhaps those who produced most of the counterfeit money actually
lived in Warsaw and were not Mormons at all. Or, could it be that the Mormon
apostates, anti-Mormons, and others used Nauvoo as headquarters for their
bogus operation? It would be an ideal place for it because if discovered,
they could blame the Mormon Church and its leaders.
There is a species of counterfeit, extensively circulated in this
community, called Nauvoo Bogus. They are half dollars, dated 1828. They are
a pretty good imitation of the genuine coin--so good, that some of our
business men have been imposed upon by them. It is said they are
manufactured in the City of the Saints. (Warsaw Signal, April 24, 1844, p.
2)
Only a few Mormons, or Mormon apostates, were actually involved or aware of
the bogus money, but the Mormons and their leaders were being charged with
the crime of originating it. Some Mormon people became innocent victims of
this bogus money, but it did not mean they were guilty of producing or
sanctioning it. (If you look along the edges of a dime, quarter or
half-dollar today, you will see that we too are the innocent victims of a
poor imitation of real money.)
Even if a Mormon had any association with someone who was or eventually
became connected with the bogus money, their names and reputation were
attached to counterfeiting by the Warsaw Signal. But how strange that all
the people in Warsaw found with most of the bogus money were never mentioned
by name--whether they were innocent or guilty.
[12] Some of those guilty of counterfeiting were eventually caught and
arrested.
We extract the following from the St. Louis Reviele:
Counterfeiters-- Mormon Certificates. Yesterday morning, a boy named
Theron Terrill was arrested, having in his possession twelve American half
and eight Spanish quarter dollars, all counterfeited in some sort of base
metal. On examination by the Marshal, he stated that many had been given to
him by one George Reader, with whom he had lived in former years, but who he
had only recently seen again. For a long time the boy maintained secrecy,
but, eventually, he yielded, and so told his story, Reader was caught and
arrested on board the Ospery, having taken passage for himself and the boy
to Nauvoo.... (Warsaw Signal, June 5, 1844)
It was also later discovered that John Long admitted that he had hidden
"two bogus presses" and stated that the presses belonged to Edward Bonney.
Governor Ford attended the trial of Bonney.
I, Thomas Ford, late Governor of Illinois, do certify that I was present
during the whole trial of Edward Bonney for counterfeiting, . . . I was
fully persuaded from the evidence adduced, that the prosecution was put on
foot, so far as Haight and the other witnesses against Bonney were
concerned, to be revenged on him for ferreting out and bringing to
punishment the murderers of Col. Davenport. And for the further object of
stopping Bonney from pursuing the residue of said murderers, then and yet at
large.--Thomas Ford, Jan. 6, 1847. (The Banditti of the Prairies, p. 259)
Another man called "Eaton" had been accused of making the bogus money, but
the final arrests of the guilty parties were announced in 1845:
Counterfeiters Arrested. Two of the Nauvoo Saints were arrested in
Burlington, Iowa, on the 20th ult., for passing counterfeit money. Their
names were Cyrus Chase and Rufus Adams, and each had passed on the same day
a $10 bill on the Lafayette Bank of Cincinnati. Other counterfeit money was
found upon them. They were both committed for trim. (St. Louis American,
Dec. 2, 1845)
However, Oliver Cowdery was never arrested, tried or found guilty of any of
these nefarious bogus operations. Neither were any of the other General
Authorities of the Church.
Charge 3. David Whitmer was a counterfeiter.
The same charge against Oliver Cowdery included David Whitmer, and evidence
is also lacking in his behalf.
[13]
Charge 4. David Whitmer was told by God to leave the Saints, inferring that
the Church had apostatized.
Church history records many interesting events connected with David
Whitmer. During some very trying times one of the Elders, William McLellin,
lost faith in the leaders of the Church, and "quit praying" and "quit
keeping the commandments of God" and "indulged himself in his lustful
desires." He was excommunicated from the Church at Far West. (D.H.C. 3:31)
From then on--
. . . he took an active part in the persecution of the Saints in Missouri,
and at one time expressed the desire to do violence to the person of Joseph
Smith, while the latter was confined in Liberty prison. Subsequently he
attempted what he called a reorganization of the Church, and called upon
David Whitmer to take the presidency thereof, claiming that he was ordained
by Joseph Smith on the 8th of July, 1834, as his (the Prophet Joseph's)
successor. (D.H.C. 3:32)
The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote about these events while in Liberty Jail and
said:
But behold the words of the Savior: "If the light which is in you become
darkness, behold how great is that darkness." Look at the dissenters. Again,
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own." Look at Mr.
Hinkle--a wolf in sheep's clothing. Look at his brother John Corrill. Look
at the beloved brother Reed Peck, who aided him in leading us, as the Savior
was led, into the camp of His enemies, as a lamb prepared for the slaughter,
as a sheep dumb before his shearers; so we opened not our mouths.
But these men, like Balaam, being greedy for reward, sold us into the
hands of those who loved them, for the world loves his own. I would remember
William E. McLellin, who comes up to us as one of Job's comforters. God
suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job--but it never entered into their
hearts that Job would get out of it all. This poor man who professes to be
much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to
forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel; and this ass not being
of the same kind as Balaam's, therefore, the angel notwithstanding appeared
unto him, yet he could not penetrate his understanding sufficiently, but
that he brays out cursings instead of blessings. (D.H.C. 3:228)
Whitmer, like many of the men at that time, was severely tried and tested.
He was mortal and had weaknesses which led him into a wayward position
resulting in his being excommunicated from the Church. But during his trials
and temptations, he did not waver from nor deny his testimony of the Book of
Mormon and its truthfulness. It was in his darkness that he made the
following statement, as referred to in McKay's article:
If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon . . . then I tell you
that in June, 1838, God spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens,
and told me to `separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints.... '
[14] This is a strong possibility, as when men get into that much darkness,
it is reasonable that God would not want them to remain any longer with the
Saints. If Joseph Smith likened Whitmer to "a dumb ass", then God certainly
would not want any of those in His Church! In fact, all these modern
Evangelist preachers who were once Mormons, claiming to be "Christians" but
acting more like dumb asses, were probably told by God to "separate
themselves" from the Latter-day Saints, as well. It would also be better for
them to leave the Saints alone, but they have done just as Joseph said they
would do--
Renegade "Mormon" dissenters are running through the world and spreading
various foul and libelous reports against us, thinking thereby to gain the
friendship of the world, because they know that we are not of the world, and
that the world hates us; therefore they <the world> make a tool of these
fellows <the dissenters>; and by them try to do all the injury they can, and
after that they hate them worse than they do us, because they find them to
be base traitors and sycophants.
Such characters God hates; we cannot love them. The world hates them, and
we sometimes think that the devil ought to be ashamed of them. (D.H.C.
3:230)
David Whitmer made the mistake of falling in with some of these dissenters
and he himself became confused on certain issues in the Church. However, he
never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. In fact, he strongly
refuted those rumors that he and the other two witnesses had ever denied
their testimonies of this sacred scripture:
It is recorded in the American Cyclopaedia and the Encyclopaedia
Britannica, that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the
three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon; and that the other
two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to
that Book. I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any
time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world,
that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their
testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity
of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and
his last words were, "Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book
of Mormon." He died here in Richmond, Mo., on March 3d, 1850. Many witnesses
yet live in Richmond, who will testify to the truth of these facts, as well
as to the good character of Oliver Cowdery. The very powers of darkness have
combined against the Book of Mormon, to prove that it is not the word of
God, and this should go to prove to men of spiritual understanding, that the
Book is true. (Address to All Believers in Christ by a Witness to the Divine
Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, by David Whitmer, 1887, p. 8)
[15] In spite of all of Whitmer's straying from Church doctrines, his
difficulties with Joseph Smith, and being influenced by apostates, David
continued to bear a straight-forward testimony of seeing the plates. In 1878
Apostles Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith went to visit him and reported as
follows:
Orson Pratt: "Do you remember what time you saw the plates?"
David Whitmer: "It was in June, 1829, the latter part of the month, and
the Eight Witnesses saw them, I think, the next day or the day after (i.e.,
one or two days after). Joseph showed them the plates himself, but the angel
showed us (the Three Witnesses) the plates, as I suppose to fulfill the
words of the book itself. Martin Harris was not with us at this time; he
obtained a view of them afterwards (the same day). Joseph, Oliver and myself
were together when I saw them. We not only saw the plates of the Book of
Mormon, but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the
plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of
the people of the world down to the time of their being engraved, and many
other plates. The fact is, it was just as though Joseph, Oliver and I were
sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light. It was not
like the light of the sun, nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and
beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the
midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C.
Whitmer, sitting a few feet from him), there appeared, as it were, a table
with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of
Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors (i.e., the ball which Lehi
had) and the interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed
(striking the bed beside him with his hand), and I heard the voice of the
Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the
records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and
power of God." (Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen, 1:266)
Before he died, David Whitmer made the following public announcement of his
testimony:
"Unto all Nations, Kindreds, Tongues and People, unto whom these presents
shall come:
"It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County,
Missouri, that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my
testimony as one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon,
"To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then;
and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in
the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once <and> for all to make
this public statement:
"That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof,
which has so long since been published with that book, as one of the Three
Witnesses. Those who know me best well know that I have always adhered to
that testimony. And that no man may [16] be misled or doubt my present views
in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all my statements as
then made and published.
"`He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear;' it was no delusion; what is
written is written, and he that readeth let him understand. * * *
"`And if any man doubt, should he not carefully and honestly read and
understand the same before presuming to sit in judgment and condemning the
light, which shineth in darkness, and showeth the way of eternal life as
pointed out by the unerring hand of God?'
"In the Spirit of Christ, who hath said: `Follow thou me, for I am the
life, the light and the way,' I submit this statement to the world; God in
whom I trust being my judge as to the sincerity of my motives and the faith
and hope that is in me of eternal life.
"My sincere desire is that the world may be benefited by this plain and
simple statement of the truth.
"And all the honor to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is
one God. Amen!
"DAVID WHITMER SEN., Richmond, Mo., March 19, 1881."
(Missouri Conservator, March 25, 1881)
A weekly Missouri newspaper called The Richmond Democrat printed the
following item concerning the death of David Whitmer:
"David Whitmer bore his long illness with great patience and fortitude,
his faith never for a moment wavering, and when the summons came he sank
peacefully to rest, with a smile on his countenance, just as if he was being
lulled to sleep by sweets music. Just before the breath left the body, he
opened his eyes, which glistened with the brightness of his early manhood.
He then turned them toward heaven, and a wonderful light came over his
countenance, which remained several moments, when the eyes gradually closed
and David Whitmer was gone to rest. On Monday last (Jan. 23, 1888), at 10
o'clock a.m., after awakening from a short slumber, he said he had seen
beyond the veil and saw Christ on the other side. His friends, who were
constantly at his bedside, claim that he had many manifestations of the
truths of the great beyond, and which confirms their faith beyond all shadow
of doubt. On Sunday evening, at 5:30 (Jan. 22, 1888), Mr. Whitmer called his
family and some friends to his bedside, and addressing himself to the
attending physician, said: `Dr. Buchanan, I want you to say whether or not l
am in my right mind, before I give my dying testimony.' The doctor answered:
`Yes, you are in your right mind, for I have just had a conversation with
you.' He then addressed himself to all around his bedside in these words:
`Now you must all be faithful in Christ. I want to say to you all, the Bible
and the record of the Nephites (Book of Mormon) is true, so you can say that
you have heard me bear my testimony on my death-bed. All be faithful in
Christ, and your reward will be according to your works. God bless you all.
My trust is in Christ forever, worlds without end. Amen.'" * * *
[17]
Charge 5. Martin Harris's "moral and religious character was such, as not to
entitle him to respect among his neighbors. . . ", and also that "he changed
his religious position eight times...."
In answer to the last part of this charge, it is easy to understand why
anyone would wander around from church to church before becoming a Mormon.
That's like searching for a gourmet dinner in a 7-11 store. Then, when
Mormons somehow become disaffected with Joseph Smith or with the Church,
they again wander around without finding satisfaction in any of the
organized churches.
Any man on the brink of apostasy will experience feelings of doubt,
dissatisfaction and disappointment. The three witnesses of the Book of
Mormon were no exception; however, they never publicly denied their
testimony of the plates. Martin Harris made public and private statements
about the Book of Mormon, but they were not denials.
The following incident was recorded by David B. Dille, who visited Martin
Harris in 1853. Dille was on his way to fulfill a mission in Great Britain
and stopped enroute to see Harris.
"What do you think of the Book of Mormon? Is it a divine record?"
Mr. Harris replied and said, "I was the righthand man of Joseph Smith, and
I know that he was a Prophet of God. I know the Book of Mormon is true."
Then smiting his fist on the table, he said, "And you know that I know that
it is true. I know that the plates have been translated by the gift and
power of God, for His voice declared it unto us; therefore I know of surety
that the work is true. For," continued Mr. Harris, "did I not at one time
hold the plates on my knee an hour and a half, whilst in conversation with
Joseph, when we went to bury them in the woods, that the enemy might not
obtain them? Yes, I did. And as many of the plates as Joseph Smith
translated I handled with my hands, plate after plate." ***
Mr. Harris further said, "I took a transcript of the characters of the
plates to Dr. Anthon, of New York. When I arrived at the house of Professor
Anthon, I found him in his office and alone, and presented the transcript to
him, and asked him to read it. He said if I would bring the plates, he would
assist in the translation. I told him I could not, for they were sealed.
Professor Anthon then gave me a certificate certifying that the characters
were Arabic, Chaldaic, and Egyptian. I then left Dr. Anthon and was near the
door, when he said, `How did the young man know the plates were there?' I
said an angel had shown them to him. Professor Anthon then said, `Let me see
the certificate!'--upon which I took it from my waistcoat pocket and
unsuspectingly gave it to him. He then tore it up in anger, saying there was
no such thing as angels now--it was all a hoax. I then went to Dr. Mitchell
with the transcript, and he confirmed what Professor Anthon had said."
(Mill. Star 21:545)
[18] Edward Stevenson also recorded an interview with Martin Harris:
In the year 1869 I was appointed to a mission to the United States. Having
visited several of the Eastern States, I called at Kirtland, Ohio, to see
the first temple that was built by our people in this generation. While
there, I again met Martin Harris, soon after coming out of the temple. He
took from under his arm a copy of the Book of Mormon, the first edition, I
believe, and bore a faithful testimony, just the same as that I heard him
bear 36 years previously. He said that it was his duty to continue to lift
up his voice, as he had been commanded to do, in defense of the Book that he
held in his hand, and offered to prove from the Bible that just such a book
was to come forth out of the ground--and that, too, in a day when there were
no prophets on the earth--and that he was daily bearing testimony to many
who visited the temple. (Mill. Star 44:79)
Martin Harris, like Oliver Cowdery, eventually came back into the Church.
When he arrived in Utah, the Deseret News published the following:
He is remarkably vigorous for one of his years, his memory being very
good, and his sight, though his eyes appear to have failed, being so acute
that he can see to pick a pin off the ground.... He has never failed to bear
testimony to the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. He says it is
not a matter of belief on his part, but of knowledge. He with the other
witnesses declared, and their testimony has accompanied every copy of the
book, that "an angel of God came down from heaven, and brought and laid
before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings
thereon." This declaration he has not varied from in 41 years .... We are
glad to see Martin Harris once more in the midst of the Saints. (Des. News,
Aug. 31, 1870)
During his lifetime, Martin frequently related his unwavering testimony;
and up to the time of his death, he was still actively bearing testimony of
the Book of Mormon.
Brother Martin visited many of the wards, continuing to bear his testimony
both of what he had beheld with his own eyes, and verily knew to be true. He
publicly said that many years ago, in Ohio, a number of persons combined and
sought to get Martin to drink wine for the purpose of crossing him in his
testimony. At the conclusion they asked him if he really believed the
testimony that he had signed in the Book of Mormon to be true. He replied
no, he did not believe it, but, much to their surprise, he said he knew it
to be true!
Soon after receiving his blessings in the house of the Lord, he went to
Smithfield, Cache Valley, and lived with his son until he left this mortal
life. Just before he breathed his last, he sat up in his bed, holding the
Book of Mormon in his hand, and bore his last testimony to those who were
present. <Salt Lake City, November 30, 1881> (The Three Witnesses, by
Preston Nibley, p. 133)
[19] William Homer visited Martin Harris at the time of his death and made
the following statement:
The next day, July 10, 1875, marked the end. It was in the
evening--milking time--and Martin Harris Jr., and his wife, Nancy Homer
Harris, had gone out to milk and do the evening chores. In the house with
the stricken man were left my mother, Eliza Williamson Homer, and myself,
who had had so interesting a day with Martin Harris at Kirtland. I stood by
the bedside holding the patient's right hand and my mother at the foot of
the bed. Martin had been unconscious for a number of days. When we first
entered the room, the old gentleman appeared to be sleeping. He soon woke up
and asked for a drink of water. I put my arm under the old gentleman, raised
him, and my mother held the glass to his lips. He drank freely, and then he
looked up at me and recognized me. He said, "I know you. You are my friend."
He said, "Yes, I did see the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written;
I did see the angel; I did hear the voice of God; and I do know that Joseph
Smith is a Prophet of God, holding the keys of the Holy Priesthood."
This was the end. Martin Harris, divinely chosen witness of the work of
God, relaxed, gave up my hand. He lay back on his pillow, and just as the
sun went down behind the Clarkston mountains, the spirit of Martin Harris
passed on. --Signed, William Harrison Homer. (Imp. Era, March 1926)
Edward Stevenson adds another statement about an interview with Martin
Harris:
At an evening visit of some of my friends at my residence in Salt Lake
City, to see and hear Brother Harris relate his experience (which always
delighted him), Brother James T. Woods, who is now present while I am
writing this article, reminds me that himself and G. D. Keaton were present
on that occasion, and asked him to explain the manner in which the plates
containing the characters of the Book of Mormon were exhibited to the
witnesses. Brother Harris said that the angel stood on the opposite side of
the table on which were the plates, the interpreters, etc., and took the
plates in his hands and turned them over. To more fully illustrate this to
them, Brother Martin took up a book and turned the leaves over one by one. *
* *
On the afternoon of his death he was bolstered up in his bed, where, with
the Book of Mormon in his hand, he bore his last testimony to those who were
present. Brother Harris was over ninety years of age at the time of his
death, and had always enjoyed good health. Bishop Rigby, who preached his
funeral sermon, placed the Book of Mormon on his breast, while he lay in his
coffin, and it was buried with him. --Signed, Edward Stevenson. (Mill. Star,
June 21, 1886)
A prayer and final resume of Martin Harris's life and testimony were
published in the Deseret News at the time of his death, including the
following excerpt:
[20] Notwithstanding these great favors shown to this remarkable man he
had, like all of Adam's race, his imperfections. He did not follow up his
brethren in all their persecutions in the states of Missouri and Illinois,
but remained for many years in Ohio; this gave rise to many conjectures that
Mr. Harris had apostatized. But it can truly be said that Mr. Harris never
faltered nor swerved in the least degree from the great testimony given in
the Book of Mormon. (Des. News, July 17, 1875)
Martin Harris and the other two witnesses had their faults and weaknesses.
They may have differed in some of their beliefs, and they did not all return
to the Church, but they never publicly denied their testimony as printed at
the beginning of the Book of Mormon.
Now to answer the first part of Charge No. 5, McKay took this quote from E.
D. Howe's book Mormonism Unveiled:
"I have been acquainted with Martin Harris about thirty years. .... his
moral and religious character was such, as not to entitle him to respect
among his neighbors...." (pp. 260-261)
Howe was a master anti-Mormon. Getting a character reference of Martin
Harris from him would be like asking the Mafia for a character reference of
the Police Department. Talk about one rattlesnake vouching for another!
In spite of his personal weaknesses, Martin Harris was a man of veracity as
a witness to the Book of Mormon. He displayed weakness by continuing to ask
Joseph for the manuscript of 116 pages even after the Lord had forbid it.
However, after losing the manuscript, the Lord later permitted him to assist
in the work.
He contributed much time to the restoration, and gave $3,000 towards
publishing the first edition of the Book of Mormon. When the United Order
was first established, Martin Harris was the first one called of God by name
to set an example before the Church in laying his money before the Bishop.
(see D. & C. 58:35)
In 1835 he assisted in electing, ordaining and instructing the first quorum
of Twelve Apostles in this dispensation. He was active in the Church all the
while the Saints were in Kirtland.
When the Saints moved to Missouri, Martin chose to remain in Ohio. This
display of weakness caused him to become influenced by the Strangites, an
offshoot of the Mormons. However, his venture with them in 1846 didn't last
long.
After residing in Kirtland for many years, he left to emigrate to Salt Lake
City in 1870. His years in Kirtland did not prove "his moral and religious
character was such, as not to entitle him to respect among his neighbors."
[21] An Elder making a visit to New York said:
I found there an aged gentleman, 74 years old, who knew Martin Harris, and
said that he was known in that neighborhood as an honest farmer, having
owned a good farm three miles from that place. (see Mill. Star 44:78)
Martin tells about his relationship with his neighbors in Ohio during an
incident previously referred to in this section:
He <Martin Harris> said that on one occasion several of his old
acquaintances made an effort to get him tipsy by treating him to some wine.
When they thought he was in a good mood for talk, they put the following
question very carefully to him: "Well, now, Martin, we want you to be frank
and candid with us in regard to this story of your seeing an angel and the
golden plates of the Book of Mormon that is so much talked about. We have
always taken you to be an honest, good farmer and neighbor of ours, but
could not believe that you ever did see an angel. <Martin went on to tell
them he did not believe it, he knew it.> (Biographical Encyclopedia, Jensen,
p. 274)
Because Martin visited with other churches in Ohio after becoming a Mormon,
it is an indication of his good moral and religious character. When people
refuse to associate with churches or religion, then there can be justifiable
doubts about their character.
Charge 6. The three witnesses were unreliable, denied their testimony, and
were condemned by those they aided. Their testimony is like "letting one
rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted."
In his article of the three witnesses, Robert McKay tries to set a pattern
for judging the validity of these men at witnesses. He casts doubt upon
their testimony of the Book of Mormon by casting aspersions upon their
character and judgment. By exposing and exaggerating upon their moral and
ethical weaknesses, McKay assumes that their testimony of the Book of Mormon
is such that "they cannot be trusted."
Every crafty lawyer will attempt to discredit the testimony of a person by
attacking their character and by exposing any personal weaknesses or
failings. If a lawyer can destroy, or make the appearance of destroying, the
integrity and character of a person, then he can assume to destroy their
testimony as well. Such lawyers care nothing about validity. Truth is
immaterial to men who are so avid in the defense of their own case. However,
this means of judging is certainly not correct nor wise.
As has been mentioned several times already in this response, in spite of
the human weaknesses evident in each of these three witnesses, they never
did deny their testimonies of the Book of Mormon.
[22] Testimony of Bible Witnesses
If we were to use McKay's method of logic for doubting men's testimonies,
we could apply it to anything else--even the Bible itself. For instance,
let's use this anti-Mormon tactic by applying it to three of the witnesses
of Christ. We will judge the testimonies of John the Baptist, Simon Peter,
and Judas Iscariot by examining the imperfections of their characters as a
means of determining the credibility of their testimonies.
John the Baptist
The first consideration of John the Baptist could be concerning his
background. He was not educated in the "approved" theological schools of his
day. In fact, John was living "in the uninhabited country bordering on
Antipas' realm." He lived like a recluse, even away from the house of
Israel. In the Qumran scrolls there is evidence that the only contact John
had with the outside world was with the Essenes. Most ministers of today
must be students of some Christian seminary to qualify as a minister of
Christ, but not John. How could he qualify as a critic against the great
Pharisees and the Roman empire?
I am sure that if Oliver Cowdery had come out of the wilderness the way
John did, and wore a hairy camel's hide and ate locusts and wild honey, it
could have been used as further ammunition and "evidence" to discredit
Cowdery's testimony. The anti-Mormons would have said he was some kind of a
nut!
The Lord once spoke of John in the following terms:
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a
greater prophet than John the Baptist.... (Luke 7:28)
However, if this would have been said (in a revelation in the Doctrine and
Covenants) about Oliver Cowdery, the anti-Mormons would certainly question
the source of that revelation or else Oliver's abilities as a prophet. There
was not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, yet nowhere in scripture
did he ever make a prophecy!
Continuing further, there is also the question of John's identity. When
John was approached by a party from Jerusalem, he was asked, "What then? Art
thou Elias? And he saith, I am not." (John 1:21) But Jesus was telling
people, "if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."
(Matt. 11:14) Didn't John know who he was?
In a very short time John lost confidence in Christ and "hesitated for a
time in his wholehearted support of Jesus's claims for Himself because Jesus
did not appear to be exactly the kind of Messiah he had expected."
(Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, 3:645) John, the first and
foremost witness of Christ, began to doubt his own testimony!
[23] From the Mandean sources of historical works (a sect still existing
today, and who claim their perpetuation from John the Baptist), there is a
recorded rivalry between John and Jesus. They claim that Jesus first came
under the ministry of John, but as Jesus rose in fame and honor, John's
diminished and he supposedly resented it.
Whatever John's feelings were towards Jesus, it appears that he had serious
doubts that Jesus was the Messiah. When John was sent to prison "he sent two
of his disciples, And said unto him (Jesus), Art thou he that should come,
or do we look for another?" (Matt. 11:3) This was John--the one who was
first to herald the announcement of Christ, who was the "forerunner" of the
Messiah, who baptized Jesus and heard the voice of God declaring that Jesus
was the "Only Begotten Son". According to the scriptures, John went to
prison and lo'/st his head still wondering if Jesus was the real Messiah!
Based upon McKay's own method and criteria of determining a valid
testimony, he certainly should not believe in the "witness" called John the
Baptist.
Simon Peter
Simon, or Peter, was another "witness" for Christ and a leader of the
Twelve Apostles. Peter, or "Rock", was the name given to him by Jesus. But
he was "not always stable and reliable as his name implies." He was very
well aware of his own weaknesses and once exclaimed, "Depart from me, for I
am a sinful man, O Lord." (Luke 5:8) The anti-Mormons would say that the
Lord could never use such sinners, but He did--He chose Peter as a chief
apostle.
In the New Testament we read that Jesus spoke to Peter saying: "And I say
also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:19)
Peter did not prove to be as stable as a rock, nor did the church prove
stable. Within a few hundred years the Church had suffered destruction,
apostasy and a complete departure from its original doctrines. Ignatius, in
his letter to the Romans, affirms that Peter actually held positions in the
Roman Catholic Church before his death. Marcarius of Magnesia states that
Peter was crucified in Rome after being a leader of the church there for
only a few months. The Roman episcopal lists make Peter the first Bishop of
that city. The film Quo Vadis portrays the story of Peter leaving his duties
in the church to save his life, but enroute he had a revelation that said,
"I had a disciple who was imprisoned and was to be put to death. He is
escaped, and is free. l go to die, a second time, for him." Peter cried out,
"Lord, go not; I will return and die!" He went back the next day, and
according to Origen, Peter was crucified upside down.
Regardless of the statements of the apocraphal writers about the apostasy
of the church from the time of Peter, the Protestants began to protest an
apostasy. They denounced the corruptions of the Catholic Church. The church
[24] was shattered into a thousand little pieces, all claiming to be right
and the others all wrong. It doesn't seem right to blame Peter for the mess
the Protestants brought about, but the scriptures said that Peter was given
the responsibility to keep the church from the gates of hell. It is evident
that the gates of hell have swallowed up nearly all of Christianity. Thus,
did Peter fail?
Following the conversion and baptism of Cornelius at Caesarea, Peter had to
return to Jerusalem to answer criticisms for the way he had conducted his
ministry. (see Acts 11:1-18) Paul also reprimanded Peter for the way he
handled his calling in the ministry. Paul said, "But when Peter was come to
Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." (Gal.
2:11) Poor Peter was getting chastised from the Lord, the disciples, and now
even Paul. Consider the following incidents showing that Peter was not
always as solid as a "rock":
1. Jesus told Peter, "Thou savourest not the things that be of God, but
those that be of men." (Matt. 16:23)
2. Jesus upbraided him for being a man "of little faith" and having "doubt".
(Matt. 14:31)
3. At one of the most critical periods in the life of Christ, Peter was
caught sleeping on the job and was chastised for it. (Matt. 26:40, Mark
14:37)
4. Both Mark and Luke mentioned the time of the transfiguration when Peter
carried on a conversation and didn't know what he was talking about. (Mark
9:5; Luke 9:33)
5. At the essential washing of the feet, Peter's impetuousness nearly cost
him his chance of ever remaining with the Savior. (John 13:8)
6. After the crucifixion, Peter apparently left the ministry. He said to the
other disciples, "I go a fishing," which even influenced the others to
follow him. (John 21:3)
7. Three times the Lord had to admonish Peter that if he loved Him, he
should "feed my sheep". (John 21:15-18)
8. Peter was over-confident, and boastful for he said though all men would
deny the Lord, he alone would remain faithful. Jesus said that before the
rising of the sun, he would be offended in Him. (Matt. 26:33-34)
9. Though Peter held the keys of the ministry of Christ, he took up a sword
and cut off a man's ear, for which he was rebuked by the Lord. (Matt. 26:52)
10. The most tragic scene in the life of Peter is when he denied knowing the
Savior. This was verified by all four Gospel writers. (Matt. 26:69-75; Mark
14:66-72; Luke 22:54-62; John 18:25-27)
[25]
11. Peter not only denied knowing Jesus once, but three times! In his third
denial he became so infuriated that he cursed and swore! (Matt. 26:74; Mark
14:71)
12. The most shocking rebuke Peter ever received was towards the end of his
ministry. Jesus "turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:
thou art an offence unto me...." (Matt. 16:23) What had happened to the
Rock? Had it turned into a Prince of Darkness? When Jesus called Peter a
Satan, that was certainly much worse than Joseph calling Whitmer a dumb ass!
Scholars of the Zondervan Publishing House summarized Peter's weaknesses
best when they stated that his life--
. . . illustrates, however, the danger of misdirected and superficial
enthusiasm. Some of the sharpest rebukes in the New Testament were directed
at him. His positive traits are inspiring and challenging; his negative
traits are a warning. Enthusiasm and devotion must be tempered by a balanced
and informed perspective. Peter could be overconfident in his enthusiasm, at
time bordering on the arrogance (as in the Upper Room)." (Zondervan
Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible 4:739)
If the Lord would have given a revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants
calling either Cowdery, Whitmer or Harris "Satan", then McKay would have a
more valid argument than the one he proposes. How could McKay ever
acknowledge the testimony of a man the Lord called "Satan"?
Judas Iscariot
There is little doubt that Judas, called Iscariot, became a Christian in
good faith and with good intentions. He aspired, and probably qualified, to
occupy the position of one of the Twelve Apostles--the highest position of
trust among the disciples of Jesus. However, he began to display certain
weaknesses of the flesh. The first incident of his mortal failings is
recorded thus:
Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed
the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was
filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples,
Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this
ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? (See Matt.
26:6-13; Mark 14:3-10; John 12:1-8)
The Apostle John was very certain in explaining that Judas was not really
interested in caring for the poor, but rather to satisfy his own avarice.
When Judas was complaining about the costly oil to be sold, John wrote:
This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief,
and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. (John 12:6)
[26] According to John, Judas wanted the money turned over to him to give to
the poor, but his intentions were to steal it for himself. Judas was a
thief, and he could and perhaps should have been sent to jail. He was
stealing from all the other disciples and even from Jesus, too! That's worse
than Oliver's supposed bogus money scandle.
Judas became a "thief", yet Jesus did nothing, or at least very little, to
disfellowship or excommunicate the man for his thievery. Jesus was usually
the first to recognize the weaknesses of men and to help them overcome. All
through the New Testament we read of the mercy and forgiving nature of the
Gospel message. Personal weaknesses were tolerable to Christ and forgivable;
but when men turn traitor, they commit wilful, intentional and deliberate
sins, causing trouble or harm to those they once called friends. It was
these unrepentant evils which persisted in Judas that debased him and
resulted in his becoming a traitor. When men expose themselves to the spirit
of unrighteousness, they soon become servant to the master of all
unrighteousness. Judas, like most traitors, became an aspiring spirit,
undoubtedly considering himself better or more intelligent than the other
disciples.
From the scriptures we can ascertain that the plot and execution of
betrayal were ingeniously carried out with minutest detail. It was the
craftiest lawyers, the learned Pharisees, and the wisest sages of the Jews
that tried and failed so many times to trap the Messiah. Not until Judas
performed the act of a traitor was Christ brought into a position to be
murdered.
The Prophet Joseph Smith once said:
I am exposed to far greater danger from traitors among ourselves than from
enemies without, although my life has been sought for many years by the
civil and military authorities, priests and people of Missouri; and if I can
escape from the ungrateful treachery of assassins, I can live as Caesar
might have lived, were it not for a right-hand Brutus. I have had pretended
friends betray me. All the enemies upon the face of the earth may roar and
exert all their power to bring about my death, but they can accomplish
nothing, unless some who are among us, who have enjoyed our society, have
been with us in our councils, participated in our confidence, taken us by
the hand, called us brother, saluted us with a kiss, join with our enemies,
turn our virtues into faults, and, by falsehood and deceit, stir up their
wrath and indignation against us, and bring their united vengeance upon our
heads. All the hue and cry of the chief priests and elders against the
Savior could not bring down the wrath of the Jewish nation upon his head,
and thereby cause the crucifixion of the Son of God, until Judas said unto
them: `Whomsoever I shall kiss he is the man; hold him fast.' Judas was one
of the Twelve Apostles, even their treasurer, and dipped with their Master
in the dish, and through his treachery, the crucifixion was brought about;
and we have a Judas in our midst, (Life of Joseph Smith, by George Q.
Cannon, p, 430)
In fact, there always have been Judases in the midst of the Mormons.
[27] Even though Judas was acknowledged to be an Apostle of Christ--a most
high and holy calling--sin overtook him and rather than fulfilling his
calling as an Apostle, he became an adversary. At the Last Supper, Jesus
said, "Ye are not all clean" (John 13:11), because He was aware of how far
Judas had transgressed. Though He washed their feet, He knew their hearts
and He saw filth in the heart of Judas. It would not wash away. The
traitorous character of Judas was not discernable to the other Apostles, but
Jesus knew he would betray Him.
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders
of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
and consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief
priests, and said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him
unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from
that time he sought opportunity to betray him. (Matt. 26:3-4, 14-16)
The Scribes and Pharisees were eager to take advantage of the offer by
Judas. "And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him
money." (Mark 14:11) If greed for money was the reason that Judas acted the
traitor in the betrayal, it was a most paltry sum, for Judas sold Christ for
the price of a slave. (Ex. 21:32) So, "they took the thirty pieces of
silver, the price of him that was valued." (Matt. 27:9) In our money, this
is about $18.00.
Judas was aptly described by Christ as "a devil" (John 6:70), and also a
"son of perdition" (John 17:12). These two names were the worst possible
titles that Christ could put upon a mortal being.
The Gospel writers and the apostles also referred to him as, "Judas
Iscariot, which also was the traitor...." (Luke 6:16) The appellation was
earned and well attached to Judas, for it was his most famous act. Betrayal
or traitorous acts are all solemn and saddening. Those who forsake or turn
against their family leave broken hearts; those who betray the confidence of
an organization prove to be unworthy of trust by any other company; and he
that betrays or acts as traitor to his country is often worthy of death. But
the sin of betrayal to God is more serious, more terrible and worse in the
final judgment than man has conceived of.
Within the character of Judas we have an Apostle, or witness, of Jesus
Christ. Also within this person is a thief, a traitor, a liar, a betrayer
and a man who initiated the death of the Savior. However, the fact that he
had been a thief and worse during his ministry did not negate his work or
testimony of Christ. His early ministry was performed with good intention,
in faith and with certain testimony. His acts of sin were done in the hour
of temptation. His failure as an Apostle did not destroy his work of the
ministry--it only destroyed himself.
Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer also had their personal
weaknesses, but they never turned traitor to their testimony, nor did they
ever deny or betray Christ.
[28] CONCLUSION
To reiterate then, McKay makes this observation concerning the three
witnesses to the Book of Mormon:
The Mormon Church claims that these three men were sober, steady
individuals who would not lie, who could not be easily fooled, and whose
word was reliable. The facts are otherwise. Rather than being unimpeachable,
these witnesses and their testimony are worthless in determining the truth
about the Book of Mormon.
Yet, on the other hand, McKay would want you to believe that John the
Baptist and Simon Peter were "sober, steady individuals who would not lie,
who could not be easily fooled, and whose word was reliable." The facts are
otherwise. Using the same criteria, these witnesses and their testimony,
(according to McKay's reasoning) are worthless in determining the truth
about Christ and the Bible.
McKay, who was once a Mormon himself, summarizes his article by saying:
Thus we see that the testimony of Three Witnesses was signed by men who
were unreliable, who denied their testimony, and who were condemned by those
they aided. To hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as
proof that the Book of Mormon is of God is analogous to letting one
rattlesnake vouch for another. They cannot be trusted.
According to the assumptions made by Robert McKay, one would probably
consider the witnesses of Christ to be "unreliable, who denied their
testimony, and who were condemned by those they aided." Shall we also say
that "to hold these three men and their testimony up to the world as proof"
that the Bible is of God, would be "analogous to letting one rattlesnake
vouch for another?"
If Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer, who once claimed membership in the L.D.S.
Church, but left it and thus became "unreliable and who denied their
testimony," were to be likened to rattlesnakes, then let us include all the
other Mormon apostates who became anti-Mormon writers. But since there are
so many variations and kinds of Mormon apostates, they can't all be
classified as rattlesnakes--we should brand them as Cobras, Cottonmouths,
Diamondbacks and Sidewinders!
But these three witnesses of Christ--John, Peter and Judas--also displayed
weaknesses and faults in their characters, just as did Oliver, Martin and
David.
Consider these three witnesses of Christ--John died with a message of doubt
about the identity of Christ. Peter denied knowing Jesus just before His
crucifixion, and Judas died right after betraying Christ.
[29] On the other hand, consider the three witnesses of the Book of
Mormon--all three on their deathbed bore testimony to their witness of the
Book of Mormon plates and the angel who showed them.
But as the personal weaknesses of the witnesses of Christ did not
invalidate their testimony of Christ, neither did the personal weaknesses of
the witnesses of the Book of Mormon invalidate their testimony of the Book
of Mormon.
If men "cannot be trusted" who lived about two hundred years ago because
they exhibited weaknesses and failings, then men who lived 2000 years ago
"cannot be trusted" because they displayed similar weaknesses.
If McKay scorns the testimony of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon
because of frailties in their character, he should consider in the same
light these other three witnesses of Christ and their frailties. On this
basis, how could Robert McKay ever swallow the story of Christianity?
It seems so strange to me that the anti-Mormons can be so zealous in
discovering any discrepancy, error or human weakness in the background of
the Latter-day Saints, yet they can gloss over the same things in the Bible!
Is this an occasion where they see a sliver in another's eye, but miss the
beam in their own?
But, did the testimony of these witnesses of the Book of Mormon as well as
the witnesses of Christ become invalid because of personal failings?
Absolutely not! God has no one but imperfect beings to work with, and His
mercy extends beyond the meager limits so often set by mortal men. Too often
men misjudge the things of God by their condemnation of the men who bear
that message. Oliver Cowdery perhaps said it best:
But in reviewing the lives and acts of men in past generations, whenever
we find a righteous man among them, there always were excuses for not giving
heed or credence to his testimony. The people could see his imperfections;
or, if no imperfections, supposed ones, and were always ready to frame an
excuse upon that for not believing. No matter how pure the principles, nor
how precious the teachings--an excuse was wanted, and an excuse was had. * *
*
One of two reasons may be assigned as the cause why the messengers of
truth have been rejected--perhaps both. The multitude saw their
imperfections, or supposed ones, and from that framed an excuse for
rejecting them; or else in consequence of the corruption of their own
hearts, when reproved, were not willing to repent but sought to make a man
an offender for a word, or for wearing camels' hair, eating locusts,
drinking wine, or showing friendship to publicans and sinners!
When looking over the sacred scriptures, we seem to forget that they were
given through men of imperfections and subject to passions. It is a general
belief that the ancient prophets were [30] perfect--that no stain or blemish
ever appeared upon their characters while on earth, to be brought forward by
the opposer as an excuse for not believing. * * * And that even our Saviour,
the great shepherd of Israel, was mocked and derided, and placed on a
parallel with the prince of devils; and the prophets and apostles, though at
this day looked upon as perfect as perfection, were considered the basest of
the human family by those among whom they lived. (Letters by Oliver Cowdery
to W. W. Phelps, pp. 12-14)
Good men, wayward men, and bad men all may give a true testimony. On one
occasion even the devils bore testimony of Jesus. When Jesus came into the
country of the Gergesenes, he met "two possessed with devils", who spoke to
him and cried, "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God?," and
asked to be cast into a herd of swine. (Matt. 8:28-31)
If good men, bad men, and devils alike confess the truth, we should be
willing to acknowledge it. John, Peter, Judas, Oliver, Martin and David all
bore valid testimonies, even though they displayed the frailties of mortal
men. The Mormons, more than anyone else, know the honor and calling of John
the Baptist even after his death. Oliver Cowdery's last breath of life was a
testament of seeing John the Baptist in glory. Peter's burst of denial was
not said in sincerity but in grief. As evidence that the Lord made no issue
of it, Peter was the first man to witness the resurrection of Christ. Judas
was a witness of the miracles of Christ and stood by Him during most of His
ministry, but he became an apostate who opposed what he once professed as
true. Let his life be a warning to those who become traitors to their faith.
How many Latter-day Saints have become traitors to their faith, acting as
Judas by writing and preaching against Mormonism and selling their betrayal
for pieces of silver?
Christians should be engaged in doing good, promoting the doctrines of
Christ, and administering to the needs of others. The real Gospel of Christ
is not negative, as anti-Mormon literature demonstrates, but its message
aims high, exalts men, and proclaims freedom and truth.
One Mormon beautifully describes true Christianity and Priesthood:
This, then, is true priesthood--to be images of the living God, exhibiting
in our characteristics His brightness and His strength; to be girt and
endowed with the purity of His nature; to be insullied in heart and mind; to
stand by the strength of redeeming, saving qualities; to bless, and bless,
and bless again, notwithstanding ingratitude in some--building, sustaining,
and protecting all the time; to fight all spirits of division and all
principles of death; to help the weak, the downtrodden, and the helpless,
till helping becomes our natural food, working on all principles that yield
nourishment, support, and strength--till our very presence is as the sun,
cheering and blessing all. So shall God increase within us, refreshing our
own spirits, and watering all around, and the characteristics of the Holy
Priesthood will grow out from us like the branches of a fruitful tree that
yield shelter, shield, and fruit. (Mill. Star 20:641-644)
[31] We are grateful to the men who were witnesses of Christ and those who
were witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Understanding both their frailties and
testimony helps us overcome our own weaknesses and failings. The tolerant
mercy we extend to others, we hope the Lord will extend to us. It is a great
consolation to know the mercy and kindness of God towards weak fallible
mortals. And how loving He is to continue to work with and for us in spite
of so many failings. In that hope and faith we anticipate the day when we
shall see and hear for ourselves the testimony of many others besides those
"Three Witnesses" in the Kingdom of God.
Aaron Kim
"Aaron Kim" <aa...@artbulla.com> wrote in message
news:5m80c1F...@mid.individual.net...
Joseph Smith said scripture can be technically any words inspired by the
Holy Spirit. Sectarians like you like to refer to the writings of Paul in
the NT so much but I wonder what lost of words you would have suffered if
you lived in a time just before he wrote his epistles. You have to get
revelation from God and stop making up your own doctrine. Joseph Smith and
Paul said the same thing. The former said, "Opinion without revelation is no
authority." And the latter said no man knows the things of God but by the
Spirit of God. You do not rely on the Spirit because you not think the
Spirit is even offered by God anymore. It's okay to pray to God but it's
loco if He answers back, is that it?
Jesus said in John 10:16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this
fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall
be one fold, and one shepherd." Who did He mean by other sheep? He was
referring to the Nephites in the Americas:
13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath
given it unto you.
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should
tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should
tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the
Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must
bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one
shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my
word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this
thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I
tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their
iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of
you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father
separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not
of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep
I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall
hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles;
for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their
preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and
they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my
voice-that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy
Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard amy voice, and seen me; and ye are my
sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
(Book of Mormon |3 Nephi 15:13-24)
>> No one bothers to ask why this alleged angel Moroni (or Nephi, depending
>> on whether you believe Joe Smith's autobiography or latter day historical
>> revisionists) would come to Joe when there is no similar angel in all of
>> Biblical history.
>>
>> I mean, look at Scripture, whenever an angel came by, the person they
>> approached fell prostrate in fear. That is why the first words uttered
>> by angels was often "Fear Not" - those words just weren't a standard
>> cultural salutation like today's "Hi, how are you?" They said those
>> words
>> because the people they stood before trembled in mortal fear. By
>> Joseph's own words, he wasn't scared or intimidated by the angel to the
>> point where the angel (whoever you guys think he/she was) had to make
>> threats of calling down "wrath from heaven" just to get him to stay awake
>> and pay attention.
>>
>> There are so many bogus allegations made, so many inconsistencies, so
>> many
>> differences from established patterns and practices that you have to be a
>> persistent fool to ignore the mountain of evidence screaming that Joe
>> Smith was an opportunist of the like of PT Barnum and Robert Tilton.
There are many inconsistencies in the Bible as well which is why the Prophet
Joseph Smith said that We (Mormons) believe in the Bible as much as it is
translated properly." He was inspired by God to retranslate those
contradictions found in the Bible. He would have done more but unfortunately
a crazed mob killed him along with his brother Hyrum in a jail cell in
Carthage, Illinois in 1844. Many who took part in that mob were Protestant
self righteous ministers along with apostate Mormons. These are the source
of the many lies said against the Prophet.
from: Ogden Kraut's RESPONSE
to the
EX-MORMONS
FOR JESUS
* * * * *
THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE DENIED
"Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt
priests have committed many errors--many plain and precious things were
deleted, in consequence of which error and falsehood poured into the various
churches. One of the great heresies of modern Christendom is the unfounded
assumption that the Bible contains all of the inspired teachings now extant
among men." Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp 82, 83.
THE BIBLE: The Bible says of itself that God@s Word therein will stand
forever (Isaiah 40:8; I Peter 1:25) Ask the Mormon to show you exactly where
the errors exist. Since most of the doctrines added by Mormonism are not in
the Book of Mormon either (which is claimed to contain the "fullness of the
everlasting gospel," the "plain and precious things" did not make it in
there either!
If you fellows are not aware of any errors in the Bible, it is evident that
you have never read it carefully. There is a train of errors that could be
mentioned, but it is certainly not worth the time or effort to list them
here. However, in response to your request, a few examples are--
Reporting Errors: The crucifixion was the most important event in the
history of the world. Four disciples of Christ were supposed to have been
witnesses, or at least to have correctly reported that event. However, they
each reported a different inscription on the cross:
Matthew: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews". (27:37)
Mark: "The King of the Jews." (15:26)
Luke: "This is the King of the Jews". (23:38)
John: "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews". (19:19)
Contradictional Errors:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (I John 4:12)
Jacob said, "I have seen God face to face." (Gen. 32:30)
"And the Lord appeared unto" Abraham. (Gen. 18:1)
"And Noah walked with God." (Gen. 6:9)
"The Lord spoke unto Moses, face to face." (Ex. 33:11)
"And I saw the Lord standing upon the altar." (Amos 9:1)
"I saw the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of
God." (Acts 7:56)
Quoting Errors:
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man,..." (Gen. 6:6)
"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of that he should
repent." (Num. 23:19)
[7] Mistaken Identity Errors:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Gen. 1:1)
"<God> hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath
appointed heir of all thing", by whom also he made the worlds." (Heb. 1:2)
English Errors:
"And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden." (Gen.
3:8)
If anyone is really interested in locating all the errors in the Bible,
there are books written on the subject. There is a popular paperback edition
being sold for $4.95 called Discrepancies in the Bible that you should read
if you are still not convinced that there are Biblical errors.
There are over 1,000 Christian churches in the United States alone, all
with the same Bible, but all claiming the others are wrong and they are
right. This is a clear manifestation that either the Bible is incomplete and
contains errors, or that the ministers are all in error. However, it is
probably both.
Some claim that we must be baptized under the water; others by sprinkling,
or by pouring; and some believe only in baptism of the spirit. Yet, some
contend that we need no baptism at all--that Jesus did it for us. Such
confusions exist with every other principle and ordinance, also.
Even the translators have trouble. They have been tirelessly trying to get
an error-proof Bible for many centuries, with new ones being published
constantly. We now have over 450 different Bibles to choose from--they are
either to correct errors of previous editions or to convince others of their
personal beliefs.
Out of all this confusion, contention and corruption, it is no wonder that
God sent a prophet like Joseph Smith to help people understand the true
Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Aaron Kim
"Reuben Hick" <outerd...@warmoose.com> wrote in message
news:knbJi.54693$YL5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Oh, just another reminder to you there are scriptures outside the Bible if
isn't obvious to people by now:
6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a ahundredth part of the
things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;
3 Nephi 26:6
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they
should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not
contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John 21:25
Don't you think Adam or Noah for example would have received revelations
that they would have written down? Joseph Smith translated new books, the
Books of Moses and Abraham. So you are wrong that the Bible is the only word
of God.