Why Catholics are not Christian!

Douglas Nicholson

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97

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In my studies of the word of our Lord Jesus Christ I have been
blessed with many great teachers of the word of God. I have sought
to learn what a Christianity is and what it is not. Many Christians
teachers have shared that the Catholic faith is not a Christian one
but an evil, bloody, greedy, sick, perverted institution. Hitler was
a Catholic, Muzzolini and many other sick control freaks creeps!

Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org has pounded
over and over again at his lectures that Christians need to read a well
done book by Dave Hunt called "A Women Rides the Beast!" I have and it
expose's a lot things about the EVIL Catholic church. There are many
well done books on the subject too and I encourage everyone to learn
more about this terible pagan cult! An expose it for what it is!

Jack Chick has a web site with much information about the evil
Catholic Church! Check it out... please read all the chapters to learn
more about this evil organization.

http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm

Here is a sampel from this site...

CHAPTER ONE

THE WAFER-GOD

There are some Christians who are awake to what is going
on, but there are many Christians today who believe everything is
just fine. Everybody loves everybody else. The Christians,
Mormons, Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moslems are all serving
the same God, but in different ways.

If I asked, "Can you partake of the Lord's Supper with
Catholics?" They'd say, "Why not?" Let's find out if there is a
difference between the Lord's Supper and the mass. Before I go
on, let me explain that the bread, or wafer, used in the mass is
called the host. When the host has been consecrated and offered
as a sacrifice in the mass, it then becomes the eucharist. I am
going to try to put into everyday language what is one of the great
motivating forces behind the Roman Catholic Institution. It is the
eucharist. I call it the little Jesus cookie. I know Catholics are
going to be offended by this, but I can't help it. The Protestants
have to realize where they stand on this thing.

Catholic Twin Circle
The Roman Catholic Institution in their Canon laws state:

"If any one shall deny that the body and blood, together with
the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore
entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the
sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is
only in it as a sign, or in a figure, let him be accursed." (Accursed
means to be damned, under a curse.)

"If any one shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of
God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the
Eucharist,.... and that He is not to be publicly set before the
people to be adored, and that His adorers are idolaters, let him
be accursed!"

Photo from "The Service of Love"
John Paul II

That's when, beloved, the priest walks out holding up the
cookie in the monstrance, which looks like a sunburst, and people
come up and kiss it and adore it. And if any Protestant would say,
"Hey, that's idolatry," that Protestant is to be accursed.

The eucharist in the monstrance being carried in a
procession

Catholic Twin Circle

Perpetual Adoration - Two Bendictine Sisters at the
Convent of Perpetual Adoration kneel before the
Blessed Sacrament exposed in a monstrance in the
convent chapel. Whether at work or at prayer, the nuns
focus their lives on Jesus present in the Eucharist.

Now, to sum this up, the Roman Catholic Institution teaches
that you must believe that the bread, or host, consecrated in the
mass actually becomes Jesus Christ and it is to be worshipped as
God Almighty. This is why, back in 1554, a priest carrying the
eucharist (the little Jesus cookie) could stand before a family of
Christians in Scotland, tied to posts with dried brush up to their
waists. He'd hold that piece of bread before them and ask if what
he held in his hand was actually the body, blood and deity of
Jesus Christ. When they said, "No, it is only a symbol," the
priest's assistant placed his flaming torch into the brush and set
those Bible-believers on fire. As the victims screamed in agony,
the priest held up his crucifix and said, "All this is for the greater
glory of God."

It holds firm, just as strong today, as it did in the time of the
Middle Ages, that anyone who ridicules it, or says that it only
represents Christ, is damned. The Vatican II Council re-affirmed
this. Pope John XXIII said, "I do accept entirely all that has been
decided and declared at the Council of Trent."

That Canon law is in effect today, beloved.

Table of Contents
Next: Chapter 2 - The Hand of Rome

Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97

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Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com> wrote:

>Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org has pounded
>over and over again at his lectures that Christians need to read a well
>done book by Dave Hunt called "A Women Rides the Beast!"

Missler is anti-Catholic? Doug? Is this true?

I really did think that Calvary Chapel pastors weren't into this sort of
egregious Catholic bashing.

Deana (really really surprised...I thought this stuff was limited to the
Jack Chicks of the world)

Deana M. Holmes
alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
mir...@xmission.com

Scott Pierce

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC2FA3.300A7E20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com> wrote in article
<33279C...@northlink.com>...

> In my studies of the word of our Lord Jesus Christ I have been
> blessed with many great teachers of the word of God. I have sought
> to learn what a Christianity is and what it is not. Many Christians
> teachers have shared that the Catholic faith is not a Christian one
> but an evil, bloody, greedy, sick, perverted institution. Hitler was
> a Catholic, Muzzolini and many other sick control freaks creeps!

Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. Sorry. But thanks for playing our game. We have
some lovely parting gifts for you...like a BRAIN and a history book. And
the correct answer is...? Anyone? Right! Mussolini and Hitler were
atheists, after the fashion of Nietzsche, the "God is Dead" guy. Those of
you who gave the correct answer can now move on...

Douglas, are you a fool, or do you just play one in the NG? (Hey, look!
Scott can stoop to below the belt swipes and can also lower the level of
the debate! I fit in, I fit in! But please note, I do not call the
original poster a "fool". I merely ask him if he is one. His post should
suffice for his answer. Thank you.)

> Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org has pounded
> over and over again at his lectures that Christians need to read a well
> done book by Dave Hunt called "A Women Rides the Beast!"

Isn't "a well done book by Dave Hunt" sort of oxymoronic?

BTW, if you like THAT book, you ought to read Fr. Ralph Chiniquy's 19th
treatise on the Jesuits. Fr. Chiniquy was an ex-Catholic who wrote a
sensationalist book on the Catholic church, specifically the Jesuits. The
comedic and later mentioned Jack Chick did a comic book series on Fr.
Chiniquy. (It, like other Chick screeds, truly fits the definition of
"comic" in the fullest sense). BTW, Fr. Chiniquy claimed to prove that the
Jesuits were behind the assassination of Lincoln (after all, Booth was a
Catholic, Dr. Mudd was educated at a Jesuit school [Georgetown -- although
I don't think Mudd played for the Hoyas], Mary Surratt was a Catholic,
Davey Herold went to Georgetown, etc.). Chick is ludicrous, as is your
posting here, Mr. Nicholson.

> I have and it
> expose's a lot things about the EVIL Catholic church. There are many
> well done books on the subject too and I encourage everyone to learn
> more about this terible pagan cult! An expose it for what it is!
>
> Jack Chick has a web site with much information about the evil
> Catholic Church! Check it out... please read all the chapters to learn
> more about this evil organization.
>
> http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm
>
> Here is a sampel from this site...

I don't enjoy engaging in ad hominem arguments or off-topic snipes, but
would you either learn to spell or use a spell checker?

[BTW, snipped the "sampel" -- it's trash]

If you want to discuss REAL substantive problems with Catholic doctrine,
then you could probably drum up some debate on the subject. I'm not a
Catholic, so I might even take your side, as painful as it might be to me.
But when all you can do is reprint Jack Chick's laughable and lamentable
screeds, you only make yourself look laughable and lamentable.

> Table of Contents
> Next: Chapter 2 - The Hand of Rome

Please spare us the drivel. I already have enough to do on my hands, what
with reading the menace's spam...
--
Scott Pierce
spi...@huthwaite.com

"Non est interpretatio, sed divinatio, quae recedit a litera."
...Francis Bacon (uh-oh. Wasn't he a Catholic?? Yikes! I
better change my sig to one by David Duke...or maybe Jack Chick)

------=_NextPart_000_01BC2FA3.300A7E20
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com> wrote in article <33279C...@northlink.com>... > In my studies of the word of our Lord =
Jesus Christ I have been > blessed with many great teachers of the =
word of God. I have sought > to learn what a Christianity is and =
what it is not. Many Christians > teachers have shared that the =
Catholic faith is not a Christian one > but an evil, bloody, =
greedy, sick, perverted institution. Hitler was > a Catholic, =
Muzzolini and many other sick control freaks creeps! Bzzzzt. =
 Wrong answer.  Sorry.  But thanks for playing our game. =
 We have some lovely parting gifts for you...like a BRAIN and a =
history book.  And the correct answer is...?  Anyone? =
 Right!  Mussolini and Hitler were atheists, after the fashion =
of Nietzsche, the "God is Dead" guy.  Those of you who =
gave the correct answer can now move on... Douglas, are you a =
fool, or do you just play one in the NG?  (Hey, look!  Scott =
can stoop to below the belt swipes and can also lower the level of the =
debate!  I fit in, I fit in!  But please note, I do not call =
the original poster a "fool".  I merely ask him if he is =
one.  His post should suffice for his answer.  Thank =
you.) > Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org =
 has pounded > over and over again at his lectures that =
Christians need to read a well > done book by Dave Hunt called =
"A Women Rides the Beast!" Isn't "a well done =
book by Dave Hunt" sort of oxymoronic?   BTW, if you =
like THAT book, you ought to read Fr. Ralph Chiniquy's 19th treatise on =
the Jesuits.  Fr. Chiniquy was an ex-Catholic who wrote a =
sensationalist book on the Catholic church, specifically the Jesuits. =
 The comedic and later mentioned Jack Chick did a comic book series =
on Fr. Chiniquy.  (It, like other Chick screeds, truly fits the =
definition of "comic" in the fullest sense).  BTW, Fr. =
Chiniquy claimed to prove that the Jesuits were behind the assassination =
of Lincoln (after all, Booth was a Catholic, Dr. Mudd was educated at a =
Jesuit school [Georgetown -- although I don't think Mudd played for the =
Hoyas], Mary Surratt was a Catholic, Davey Herold went to Georgetown, =
etc.).  Chick is ludicrous, as is your posting here, Mr. =
Nicholson. > I have and it > expose's a lot things about =
the EVIL Catholic church. There are many > well done books on the =
subject too and I encourage everyone to learn > more about this =
terible pagan cult! An expose it for what it is! > > Jack =
Chick has a web site with much information about the evil > =
Catholic Church! Check it out... please read all the chapters to =
learn > more about this evil organization. > > http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm > > Here is a sampel from this =
site... I don't enjoy engaging in ad hominem arguments or =
off-topic snipes, but would you either learn to spell or use a spell =
checker? [BTW, snipped the "sampel" -- it's =
trash] If you want to discuss REAL substantive problems with =
Catholic doctrine, then you could probably drum up some debate on the =
subject.  I'm not a Catholic, so I might even take your side, as =
painful as it might be to me.  But when all you can do is reprint =
Jack Chick's laughable and lamentable screeds, you only make yourself =
look laughable and lamentable. >     Table =
of Contents >     Next: Chapter 2 - The Hand =
of Rome Please spare us the drivel.  I already have enough =
to do on my hands, what with reading the menace's spam... -- =
 Scott Pierce spi...@huthwaite.com "Non est =
interpretatio, sed divinatio, quae recedit a litera." =
         ...Francis Bacon =
 (uh-oh.  Wasn't he a Catholic??  Yikes!  I better =
change my sig to one by David Duke...or maybe Jack Chick)
</body></h=
tml>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC2FA3.300A7E20--

Doug Gilliland

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97

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In article <33279C...@northlink.com>, Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com> wrote:

>Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org has pounded
>over and over again at his lectures that Christians need to read a well
>done book by Dave Hunt called "A Women Rides the Beast!" I have and it
>expose's a lot things about the EVIL Catholic church. There are many
>well done books on the subject too and I encourage everyone to learn
>more about this terible pagan cult! An expose it for what it is!

While I may or may not agree with the above statements, I do know one thing.
Chuck Missler is an unreliable source of information. This is well documented
on my site.

Scudder would not allow the discussion about the Catholic Church in his
private listserve. He shut it down. I'm ROTFL because the site is ultimately
hosted by Chuck Missler. So if you repeat something that Missler has said on
his site, you'll get in trouble with Scudder.

I wonder if Missler realizes what Scudder is doing in promoting Roman
Catholicism on his private listserve.

Doug Gilliland
Read the CC FUAQ at : http://village.ios.com/~dougg/calvary/calvary.htm
The Truth is Out There - X Files

Doug Gilliland

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97

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In article <332916d6...@news.xmission.com>, mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) wrote:

>Missler is anti-Catholic? Doug? Is this true?

His bestest buddy Dave Hunt has written a Catholic bashing book called Woman
Rides the Beast. The Beast is? The Woman is? The book presents a connection
between the beast, the woman, the Anti Christ and the Roman Catholic Church.
Who's who?

>I really did think that Calvary Chapel pastors weren't into this sort of
>egregious Catholic bashing.

I'm sure that you are saying that tongue in cheek, right? It's a main pastime.
I count the attacks against the Catholic church on a per hour rate. Remember,
many of their converts are from Catholicism. They view the Catholic church as
a vast mission field to be converted to Calvary Chapelism.

>Deana (really really surprised...I thought this stuff was limited to the
>Jack Chicks of the world)

Chick and Chuck are so close on some many things that you'd really be
surprised. Anti-Catholic, KJV-Only, etc.

>Deana M. Holmes
>alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
>April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
>mir...@xmission.com

Doug Gilliland

starshadow

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97

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mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) wrote:

(snip)

>Deana (really really surprised...I thought this stuff was limited to the
>Jack Chicks of the world)

Though I don't know about CCs bashing Catholics, one way or another,
you shouldn't be surprised, Deana. Lots of non Catholics but other
brands of Christians use inflammatory words to describe Catholics,
"idolators" being one of the mildest..

>Deana M. Holmes
>alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
>April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
>mir...@xmission.com

Bright Blessings,
Starshadow star...@aa.net

"Feminism: the radical notion that women are people, too."

Bernard A. Wojcik Jr.

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97

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Doug Gilliland wrote:
>
> In article <332916d6...@news.xmission.com>, mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) wrote:
>
> >Missler is anti-Catholic? Doug? Is this true?
>
> His bestest buddy Dave Hunt has written a Catholic bashing book called Woman
> Rides the Beast. The Beast is? The Woman is? The book presents a connection
> between the beast, the woman, the Anti Christ and the Roman Catholic Church.
> Who's who?

And Dave Hunt is also anti-Calvinist. Guilt by association can cut both
ways.

> >I really did think that Calvary Chapel pastors weren't into this sort of
> >egregious Catholic bashing.
>
> I'm sure that you are saying that tongue in cheek, right? It's a main pastime.
> I count the attacks against the Catholic church on a per hour rate. Remember,
> many of their converts are from Catholicism. They view the Catholic church as
> a vast mission field to be converted to Calvary Chapelism.

Careful Doug. If you call pointing out the doctrines of RCism 'Catholic
bashing' then your detractors are justified in calling you a 'CC basher'
for doing the same. I disagree with both charges.

> >Deana (really really surprised...I thought this stuff was limited to the
> >Jack Chicks of the world)
>

> Chick and Chuck are so close on some many things that you'd really be
> surprised. Anti-Catholic, KJV-Only, etc.

All I've ever seen in regards to a rejection of Chick publications et
al, is a scoffing and ridiculing of them. I've read most of the
'investigative' pieces on the basic claims advanced and don't think they
hold any water.

To me usually all the wrangling about the alleged hypocrisy and lies and
etc gets away from the basic question: "What saith the Scriptures?"
Y'all can keep the opinions of men (and wymyn for that matter), I'll
take what the Scripture says over them any day.

> >Deana M. Holmes
> >alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
> >April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
> >mir...@xmission.com
>

> Doug Gilliland
> Read the CC FUAQ at : http://village.ios.com/~dougg/calvary/calvary.htm
> The Truth is Out There - X Files

- Bernie

e-mail:
woj...@freenet.msp.mn.us

Bernie's Home Page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bawojcik/

(Unofficial) American Staffordshire Terrier Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5161/

The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt,
they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
(Psalms 14:1, KJV).

'The issue between believers and non-believers in Christian theism
cannot be settled by a direct appeal to "facts" or "laws" whose nature
and significance is already agreed upon by both parties to the debate.
The question is rather as to what is the final reference-point required
to make the "facts" and the "laws" intelligible. The question is as to
what the "facts" and "laws" really are. Are they what the non-Christian
methodology assumes they are? Are they what the Christian theistic
methodology presupposes they are?' (Van Til, Defense of the Faith,
Philadelphia, 1967).

gear...@aol.com

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97

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In article <5gc979$3...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>, do...@village.ios.com (Doug Gilliland) writes:

>In article <332916d6...@news.xmission.com>, mir...@xmission.com (Deana
>M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) wrote:
>
>>Missler is anti-Catholic? Doug? Is this true?
>
>His bestest buddy Dave Hunt has written a Catholic bashing book called Woman
>Rides the Beast. The Beast is? The Woman is? The book presents a connection
>between the beast, the woman, the Anti Christ and the Roman Catholic Church.
>Who's who?
>

>>I really did think that Calvary Chapel pastors weren't into this sort of
>>egregious Catholic bashing.
>
>I'm sure that you are saying that tongue in cheek, right? It's a main
>pastime.
>I count the attacks against the Catholic church on a per hour rate. Remember,
>
>many of their converts are from Catholicism. They view the Catholic church as
>
>a vast mission field to be converted to Calvary Chapelism.
>

I wanted to qualify that statement of yours, Doug. My pastor and several others I know of do not engage in attacks on the RCC. In fact, I remember a couple of years ago, when we were reading through the seven letters to the seven Churches in Revelation, that Ray Bentley gave what I thought was a very even handed accounting of all churches, taking into account two possible interpretations of those letters (e.g. 1) that the letters speak to different sorts of ministries and 2) that the letters speak to different ages in the historicity of the church). He and others I know of are not into putting down other ministries. I, myself, shy away from that sort of rhetoric and think it terribly abhorrent. I have Baptists and RCC in my family...and I think they are regenerate too.

>>Deana (really really surprised...I thought this stuff was limited to the
>>Jack Chicks of the world)
>
>Chick and Chuck are so close on some many things that you'd really be
>surprised. Anti-Catholic, KJV-Only, etc.
>

>>Deana M. Holmes
>>alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
>>April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
>>mir...@xmission.com
>
>Doug Gilliland
>Read the CC FUAQ at : http://village.ios.com/~dougg/calvary/calvary.htm
>The Truth is Out There - X Files

Danny Smith
(Imposters are living dangerously...)

Douglas Nicholson

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97

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>Subject: Re: Why Catholics are not Christian!
>From: "Scott Pierce" <spi...@huthwaite.com>
>Date: 1997/03/13
>Message-Id: <01bc2fcd$18e08620$3cfb...@spierce.huthwaite.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.calvary-chapel

Dear Scott, in response to your remarks

>Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. Sorry. But thanks for playing our game. We have
>some lovely parting gifts for you...like a BRAIN and a history book. And
>the correct answer is...? Anyone? Right! Mussolini and Hitler were
>atheists, after the fashion of Nietzsche, the "God is Dead" guy. Those of
>you who gave the correct answer can now move on...

Scott you are correct in saying that they did not believe in God!
Hitler, Mussolini thought themselves to be gods and thus became godless!
Why is it the history books in the school systems of the United States
don't expose the evil Roman Catholic church for what it is and what it
has done in the past nor its evil connections with Hitler or Mussolini?
Maybe it has something to do with why they served those fish lunches on
Friday.

>Douglas, are you a fool, or do you just play one in the NG?

Gosh golly Scott I thought any ol fools where allowed to participate in
the a.r.c.c-c NG? Scott are you trying to "Scudder" me out of here?

SP>(Hey, look! Scott can stoop to below the belt swipes and can also
lower the level of
SP>the debate! I fit in, I fit in! But please note, I do not call the
SP>original poster a "fool". I merely ask him if he is one. His post
should
SP>suffice for his answer. Thank you.)

DN> >Chuck Missler of Khouse ministries http://www.khouse.org has
pounded
DN> >over and over again at his lectures that Christians need to read a
well
DN>> done book by Dave Hunt called "A Women Rides the Beast!"

SP>Isn't "a well done book by Dave Hunt" sort of oxymoronic?

Have you read this book? I like Dave Hunt as a Christian author.
Dave has authored many fine books and also publishes a fine newsletter
too.

SP>BTW, if you like THAT book, you ought to read Fr. Ralph Chiniquy's
19th
SP>treatise on the Jesuits. Fr. Chiniquy was an ex-Catholic who wrote a
SP>sensationalist book on the Catholic church, specifically the
Jesuits.The
SP>comedic and later mentioned Jack Chick did a comic book series on Fr.
SP>Chiniquy. (It, like other Chick screeds, truly fits the definition
of
SP>"comic" in the fullest sense).

Scott I am glad to see that you do read books other then those magazines
you keep under your bed.

SP>BTW, Fr. Chiniquy claimed to prove that the
SP>Jesuits were behind the assassination of Lincoln (after all, Booth
was a
SP>Catholic, Dr. Mudd was educated at a Jesuit school [Georgetown --
although
SP>I don't think Mudd played for the Hoyas], Mary Surratt was a
Catholic,
SP>Davey Herold went to Georgetown, etc.).

In November 1855 Abraham Lincoln drew down upon him fire of Rome when he
answered a
Telegram from Charles Chiniquy, a Catholic priest, of Kankakee,
Illinois. Chiniquy had been engaged in a series of law suits with the
Bishop of Chicago who was trying to destroy him with false accusations.
Lincoln accepted the case as he believed that Chiniquy was innocent.
Chiniquy described his first meeting with Mr. Lincoln as follows " It
was impossible to converse with him five minutes with loving him. There
was such an expression of kindness and honesty in that face, and such an
attractive magnetism in the man; that after a few moments conversation,
one felt as tied to him by all the noblest affections of the heart."
from his book "Fifty Years in the Chruch of Rome" Father Chiniquy 1890
p.627

On the night before verdict of the trial with Father Chiniquy was on his
knees interceding that his innocence might be established. At 3:00 in
the morning Chiniquy answered a knock on his door and there stood Mr.
Lincoln, "his face beaming with joy" as Chiniquy expressed it. Mr.
Lincoln said to Chiniquy "Cheer up Mr. Chiniquy, I have the perjured
priests in my hands. Their diabolical plot is now known and if they do
not fly away before the dawn, they will surely be lynched. Bless the
Lord, you are saved!"

General TM Harris authored a book too called "Rome's Responsibility for
the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln 1897.

>Chick is ludicrous, as is your posting here, Mr. Nicholson.

I like Chick! It took some guts on his part to do what he did to expose
the truth about the RCC. Those Catholics sure are a bunch of sick
sadistic butchers. Chick's tracks sure can get someone thinking about
things! If God can use Balaams ass He certainly can use any one of ours
for His glory!

DN>> Here is a sampel from this site...

S>I don't enjoy engaging in ad hominem arguments or off-topic snipes,

but
>would you either learn to spell or use a spell checker?

>[BTW, snipped the "sampel" -- it's trash]

Dear Scott would you either learn how to spell or use a spell checker
{BTW, snipped "hominem " } The correct spelling is homonym!

If God can use Balaams ass He certainly can use are ass for His glory!
Do you know what kind of fish the Pope eats on Fridays? Nun!

>If you want to discuss REAL substantive problems with Catholic doctrine,
>then you could probably drum up some debate on the subject. I'm not a
>Catholic, so I might even take your side, as painful as it might be to me.

What are you Scott? Where do you put your faith and trust into? Scott
there is sure a lot of bizarre things that can be discussed about the
Roman Catholic Church in it's practices, history and agendas. The RCC is
real a monster. It wants to appear as something that's it not! One of
the best words I heard used to describe the Roman Catholic Church is
that it's a "counterfeit" to Christianity!

>But when all you can do is reprint Jack Chick's laughable and lamentable
>screeds, you only make yourself look laughable and lamentable.

I have been called worse how about you? Have you browsed Jack Chick web
site?

>Please spare us the drivel. I already have enough to do on my hands, what
>with reading the menace's spam...

Everyone please forgive me for taking excerpts from Jack Chick's web
site. I do know that there are folks who follow this user group who do
not have the capabilities to browse to Jack Chick web site
http://www.chick.com and I just wanted share a little of what that web
site has to offer. Those interest can go direct and view for themselves
at http://www.chick.com/books/books.htm#catholcm for a book list.
http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm is an online book called
Smokescreens
by Jack Chick. http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm also an online
book called Understanding Roman Catholicism

Now let's us all sing that classic Monty Python song! " Spam"
Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam …….

Take care and God bless
With lots of love in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ
Douglas Nicholson for Jesus Christ !
noah...@northlink.com

Doug Gilliland

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Mar 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/22/97

to

In article <19970315191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gear...@aol.com wrote:

>I wanted to qualify that statement of yours, Doug. My pastor and several
> others I know of do not engage in attacks on the RCC.

I suspect you realize and would admit that most CC pastors do not share that
sentiment. Most vigorously denounce Catholicism from the pulpit quite
regularly.

> In fact, I remember a
> couple of years ago, when we were reading through the seven letters to the
> seven Churches in Revelation, that Ray Bentley gave what I thought was a very
> even handed accounting of all churches, taking into account two possible
> interpretations of those letters (e.g. 1) that the letters speak to different
> sorts of ministries and 2) that the letters speak to different ages in the
> historicity of the church).

Neither of them work for me. I like the 3rd possibility. They were written to
7 churches that existed in the first century. Nothing more nothing less. I
really hate to add to the words of THAT book.

> He and others I know of are not into putting down
> other ministries. I, myself, shy away from that sort of rhetoric and think it
> terribly abhorrent. I have Baptists and RCC in my family...and I think they
> are regenerate too.

That's a grand admission as compared to most CCers. I think you realize that?

>Danny Smith
>(Imposters are living dangerously...)

As usual a voice for tolerance.

gear...@aol.com

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Mar 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/22/97

to

In article <5gvccm$g...@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, do...@village.ios.com (Doug Gilliland) writes:

>In article <19970315191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gear...@aol.com
>wrote:
>
>>I wanted to qualify that statement of yours, Doug. My pastor and several
>> others I know of do not engage in attacks on the RCC.
>
>I suspect you realize and would admit that most CC pastors do not share that
>sentiment. Most vigorously denounce Catholicism from the pulpit quite
>regularly.
>

Well, I know that Raul Rees does ridicule the RCC, but I do not listen to him often enough to say anything about the frequency of such comments. Pastor Chuck, whom I do like to listen to has said one thing that I remember clearly. It had to do with the fact that the RCC holds to the belief that Mary was a virgin her whole life. He states that the references to brothers and sisters in Matthew 13.55 are indeed proof that Mary had other children. I think that this is probable, but I also think that cousins were refered to, at times, as brothers and sisters in Judaism. Whether Matthew 13.55 is proof or not, I think it improbable that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth. I will say that usually, CC pastors that have something negative to say about RC, it is done so in a mature manner. Raul has not done so at times and that is one of the many reasons (and maybe the least so) that I do not deign to tune in to his broadcast.

>> In fact, I remember a
>> couple of years ago, when we were reading through the seven letters to the
>> seven Churches in Revelation, that Ray Bentley gave what I thought was a
>very
>> even handed accounting of all churches, taking into account two possible
>> interpretations of those letters (e.g. 1) that the letters speak to
>different
>> sorts of ministries and 2) that the letters speak to different ages in the
>> historicity of the church).
>
>Neither of them work for me. I like the 3rd possibility. They were written to
>
>7 churches that existed in the first century. Nothing more nothing less. I
>really hate to add to the words of THAT book.
>

Yes, I should have mentioned the obvious one. He did state that, "3rd posibility," first.

>> He and others I know of are not into putting down
>> other ministries. I, myself, shy away from that sort of rhetoric and think
>it
>> terribly abhorrent. I have Baptists and RCC in my family...and I think
>they
>> are regenerate too.
>
>That's a grand admission as compared to most CCers. I think you realize that?
>

Heck! Ain't that why we are Protestants? <grin>. But seriously, I know that the folks I fellowship with at home bible study and at my men's prayer group are inclusive of the RCC. Though, when I do hear CC folks bashing the RCC, I try to find some time to talk to them privately. This always has been fruitful, IMO, in that they see my point.

>>Danny Smith
>>(Imposters are living dangerously...)
>
>As usual a voice for tolerance.
>

:) Amen.

>Doug Gilliland
>Read the CC FUAQ at : http://village.ios.com/~dougg/calvary/calvary.htm
>The Truth is Out There - X Files

Danny Smith
(Imposters are living dangerously...)

Douglas Nicholson

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Mar 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/22/97

to

gear...@aol.com wrote:

>In article <19970315191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gear...@aol.com

Danny Smith wrote:

DS>>I wanted to qualify that statement of yours, Doug. My pastor and
several
DS>> others I know of do not engage in attacks on the RCC.

>In article <5gvccm$g...@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, do...@village.ios.com (Doug Gilliland) writes:

DG> I suspect you realize and would admit that most CC pastors do not
share that
DG>sentiment. Most vigorously denounce Catholicism from the pulpit quite
DG>regularly.

Danny Smith wrote:
DS>I know that Raul Rees does ridicule the RCC, but I do not listen to
him often enough DS>to say anything about the frequency of such
comments. Pastor Chuck, whom I do like DS>to listen to has said one
thing that I remember clearly. It had to do with the fact DS>that the

RCC holds to the belief that Mary was a virgin her whole life. He

states DS>that the references to brothers and sisters in Matthew 13.55
are indeed proof that DS>Mary had other children. I think that this is
probable, but I also think that DS>cousins were refered to, at times,
as brothers and sisters in Judaism. Whether DS>Matthew 13.55 is proof
or not, I think it improbable that Mary remained a virgin DS>after

Jesus' birth. I will say that usually, CC pastors that have something

negative DS>to say about RC, it is >done so in a mature manner.

You mean CC Pastors don't sing songs like:
"enee meanee minee mo catch a Catholic by the toe!"

DS> Raul has not done so at times and that is one of the many reasons
(and maybe the DS>least so) that I do not deign to tune in to his
broadcast.

What the Catholic Catechism says about the Virgin Mary

This has been copied from Jack Chicks Christian web site from his online

book called
"Understanding Roman Catholicism"

http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm

About the Catholic view point http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_17.htm
--------------------------- Catholic Catechism
----------------------------
Mary: Perpetual Virgin

The Catechism records that Mary remained a virgin throughout her entire
life:

"Mary remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a
virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a
virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin." Pg.
128 #510

"And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as
Aeiparthenos, the 'Ever-virgin.'" Pg. 126, #499
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
**********from the book online book "Understanding Roman
Catholicism"*********
Either Mary remained a virgin or she didn't. The position you will
take depends upon who you believe... the traditions of men, or
God's Word.
**********************************************************************************

DS> Heck! Ain't that why we are Protestants? <grin>. But seriously, I
know that the DS>folks I fellowship with at home bible study and at my
men's prayer group are DS>inclusive of the RCC. Though, when I do hear
CC folks bashing the RCC, I try to DS>find some time to talk to them
privately. This always has been fruitful, IMO, in DS>that they see my
point.

See what point! No, the CC's you talk to just don't like to argue with
idiots!
So to pacify you Mr. Smith these CC'ers just nod there heads, smile and
say to themselves "doesn't this guy read any books or go to Bible
studies or do his homework!"

Danny go read a well done book called "A Women Rides the Beast" by Dave
Hunt. Chuck
Missler has a tape briefing package out called "The Kingdom of Blood"
with lectures by
both Chuck Missler and Dave Hunt. It can be ordered through Khouse
ministry at
http://thesource.khouse.org/cgi-bin/vsc/kob.html?L+thesource+prwj4971
you can also listen to a real audio sample of this lecture at
http://thesource.khouse.org/kob.ram

Will keep you in prayer Danny boy!

blessing to all
Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com

gear...@aol.com

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Mar 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/23/97

to

In article <33345A...@northlink.com>, Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com> writes:

>See what point! No, the CC's you talk to just don't like to argue with
>idiots!
>So to pacify you Mr. Smith these CC'ers just nod there heads, smile and
>say to themselves "doesn't this guy read any books or go to Bible
>studies or do his homework!"
>

[snip]

>
>Will keep you in prayer Danny boy!
>
>blessing to all
>Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com
>
>

Ahhhh....gee thanks, Douglas...I think... So will you be prefacing your prayers for me by telling God you are praying for the "idiot?" Just wondering...

Douglas Nicholson

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Mar 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/24/97

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC37D8.657BB140

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

gear...@aol.com wrote in article
<19970323221...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

If that's what you like Danny? No problemo! There are lots of idiots in
this world Danny and we all need to be in constant prayer for one another
and yes indeed we all are a bunch of idiots! All of us are lacking in
knowledge, wisdom and love need to be in prayer all the more. All of us
also need to be doing our homework more diligently. Not only reading and
studying the Word of God our Lord Jesus Christ but need to read the works
of those which can shed more light on the subjects that our Lord Jesus
Christ has spoken about.

Danny I still want to encourage you to do some serious homework about the
RCC before you go and rebuke some one about bashing the RCC. Would you say
its bad for someone to bash Hitler and
Nazi Germany! Would you go up to them and say "Stop bashing Hitler and Nazi
Germany because you see Hitler was not in his right mind and the rest them
Nazi's were just following orders so give them poor
SoB's a break OK!"

Danny go ask the Jews what they think about Hitler and Nazi Germany! Ask
the Jews how many Jews
have been murdered by the RCC so far? Ask Christians how many Christians
have been murdered by the
Roman Catholic Church?

Who do you think the is "whore" is in Revelation 17. Who do you think our
Lord Jesus Christ is
referring to where it is written "Come out of her, my people, that ye be
not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" in
Revelation 18:4 and what will happen to those who don't come out?

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my
people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of
her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath
remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and
double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath
filled fill to her double.

Who do you think is behind all this deceit?

Danny I still encourage you and everyone to read a well done book called "A
Women Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt. It is offered for sale at
http://www.chick.com/books/woman.htm

Chuck Missler has a tape briefing package out called "The Kingdom of Blood"
with lectures by both Chuck Missler and Dave Hunt. It can be ordered
through Khouse ministry at
http://thesource.khouse.org/cgi-bin/vsc/kob.html?L+thesource+prwj4971

You can also listen to a real audio sample of this lecture at
http://thesource.khouse.org/kob.ram

Another book worth reading is "Babylon Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow
ISBN 0-916938-12-3 It is also available in Spanish. Available better
Christian bookstores.

Jack Chick offers two online books on the internet about the Roman Catholic
Church
http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm "Smokescreens" and
http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm "Understanding Roman
Catholicism"

For a free (GREAT) Catalogue of those sometimes hard to find Christian
books about cults etc contact
Bible Baptist Bookstore (904) 477-8812. They offer all sorts of books about
the Roman Catholic Church,
other cults and lots of other good stuff. Most if not all of these books
you won't find in any Catholic book store. I wonder why? One of those
censorship things you know!

Can we say the word CENSORSHIP here on a.r.c.c-c.

Why would any body engage in censorship or cover up or deceit!

John 3:19 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were
evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth
cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are
wrought in God.

Thank you Lord Jesus Christ for all your blessings indeed!
Blessings to all!

Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com
------=_NextPart_000_01BC37D8.657BB140

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"> gear...@aol.com wrote =

in article <<font =

color=3D"#0000FF">19970323221...@ladder01.news.aol.com<fo=
nt color=3D"#000000">>... > In article <33345A...@northlink.com>, Douglas Nicholson <<font =

color=3D"#0000FF">noah...@northlink.com<font =

color=3D"#000000">> writes: > > >Will keep you in =
prayer Danny boy! > > > >blessing to all > =
>Douglas Nicholson      <font =

color=3D"#0000FF">noah...@northlink.com<font =

color=3D"#000000"> > > Ahhhh....gee thanks, Douglas...I =
think...  So will you be prefacing your prayers for me by telling =
God you are praying for the "idiot?"  Just =
wondering... > Danny Smith > (Imposters are living =
dangerously...) If that's what you like Danny? No problemo! There =
are lots of idiots in this world Danny and we all need to be in constant =
prayer for one another and yes indeed we all are a bunch of idiots! All =
of us are lacking in knowledge, wisdom and love need to be in prayer all =
the more. All of us also need to be doing our homework more diligently. =
Not only reading and studying the Word of God our Lord Jesus Christ but =
need to read the works of those which can shed more light on the =
subjects that our Lord Jesus Christ has spoken about. =
  Danny I still  want to encourage you to do some =
serious homework about the RCC before you go and rebuke some one about =
bashing the RCC. Would you say its bad for someone to bash Hitler =
and Nazi Germany! Would you go up to them and say "Stop bashing =
Hitler and Nazi Germany because you see Hitler was not in his right mind =
and the rest them Nazi's were just following orders so give them =
poor SoB's a break OK!" Danny go ask the Jews what they =
think about Hitler and Nazi Germany! Ask the Jews how many Jews have =
been murdered by the RCC so far? Ask Christians how many Christians have =
been murdered by the Roman Catholic Church? Who do you think =
the is "whore" is in Revelation 17. Who do you think our Lord =
Jesus Christ is referring to where it is written "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her =
sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" in =
Revelation 18:4 and what will happen to those who don't come =
out? 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, =
saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her =
sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have =
reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward =
her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to =
her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. =
 Who do you think is behind all this deceit? =
 Danny I still encourage you and everyone to read =
a well done book called "A Women Rides the Beast" by Dave =
Hunt. It is offered for sale at http://www.chick.com/books/woman.htm Chuck Missler has a tape briefing package =
out called "The Kingdom of Blood" with lectures by both =
Chuck Missler and Dave Hunt. It can be ordered through Khouse ministry =
at http://thesource.khouse.org/cgi-bin/vsc/kob.html?L+t=
hesource+prwj4971 You can also listen =
to a real audio sample of this lecture at http://thesource.khouse.org/kob.ram Another book worth reading is =
"Babylon Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow ISBN =
0-916938-12-3 It is also available in Spanish. Available better =
Christian bookstores. Jack Chick offers two online books on the =
internet about the Roman Catholic Church http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm =
 "Smokescreens" and http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm =
 "Understanding Roman =
Catholicism" For a free (GREAT) Catalogue of those =
sometimes hard to find Christian books about cults etc contact Bible =
Baptist Bookstore (904) 477-8812. They offer all sorts of books about =
the Roman Catholic Church, other cults and lots of other good stuff. =
Most if not all of these books you won't find in any Catholic book =
store. I wonder why? One of those censorship things you know! =
 Can we say the word CENSORSHIP here on a.r.c.c-c. Why =
would any body engage in censorship or cover up or deceit! John =
3:19 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come =
into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their =
deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, =
neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But =
he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made =
manifest, that they are wrought in God. =
 Thank you Lord Jesus Christ for =
all your blessings indeed! Blessings to all! Douglas Nicholson =
  noah...@northlink.com
</f=
ont></font=
></body></=
html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC37D8.657BB140--

gear...@aol.com

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Mar 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/24/97

to

In article <01bc381b$739ef140$7020...@netcom.ix.netcom.com>, "Douglas Nicholson" <noah...@northlink.com> writes:

>If that's what you like Danny? No problemo! There are lots of idiots in
>this world Danny and we all need to be in constant prayer for one another
>and yes indeed we all are a bunch of idiots!

Feel free not to utilize that appelation for me.

Frankly, Douglas, I am always very underwhelmed by the arguments that call for the RCC to be identified with the Whore of Babylon. As to your juxtaposing of Hitler's Nazi Germany with the RCC, I find that extremely irresponsible and beligerent on your part. Next I suppose you will be telling me the Pope is the anti-christ. Tell me, what line of reasoning do you use, Douglas? Stream of Unconsciousness? Whatever it is, this sort of rhetoric is very reminscent of cultic ideologies like the Chritian Identity Movement and others that claim they have the true revelation that their church is the true church and others are false "whores."

Although I cannot come out with a blazing endorsement of RCC doctrine, I do contend that they hold fast to the essentials of historic Christianity and I challenge you to show me one ministry under the sun that does not have some doctrinal imbalances. Calvary Chapel, of which I am a member, has its imbalances. Not enough that I want to leave, but they are still there.

My encouragement to us all is that we worry about the beam in our own eye, before we go picking saw dust out of our brothers' eyes. After all, I have met many RCC's that are strong in faith and practice "pure religion, undefiled" to such a degree that I was challenged and encouraged in my own walk. Conversely, I have met many so-called evangelicals whose doctrine and walk are so far off, that I would really hesitate to call them brother.

Furthermore, in doctrinal discussions with anyone, whether they be Christians or nonbelievers (which I prefer to think of as, pre-Christians, because I was once a nonbeliever), it is very important that one remember gentleness, meekness and respect. We need to esteem others before ourselves. Speaking the truth in love is very important. Without love, truth can be pompous declaration, ill-received. Without truth, love is empty.

[snip]
>
>Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com

Sean Roberts

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Mar 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/28/97

to

You can not judge people by their Religion. God does not judge your
religion he judges all people personally by their heart. I do disagree with
the Cathlic Religion for several reasons mainly because most people of that
Religion follow the Religion not God and the Bible and because some of the
things said in the Cathlic Religion are opposite that of the Bible but a
person doesnt have to have a Religion to get to be a Christian . God is not
Religion he is life, love, joy, hapiness, fun, etc... And Jesus was not
Religious he abollished some of the Religious rules that the people back
then made. Seek God Not Religion and dont judge people by their Religion
judge them by there life.

Rev. Steve Winter

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Mar 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/28/97

to

I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.

To be a happy catholic one must simply close one's mind to historical
events. One must reject most of the Bible that pertains to the new
testament church (including the teachings of Peter). The RCC must
simultaneously claim Peter as "infallable pope" while declaring that
he disobeyed Jesus by teaching JESUS NAME baptism (Acts 2:38). They
must teach that Acts 2:38 is disobediance to Matt 28:19 (rather than
the FULFILLMENT that it *really* was).

They must disregard the mentions of Jesus' earthly flesh brothers to
continue their "mother god" cultism (which is actually the worship of
Diana). It is no wonder that they found needful to murder much of the
early Christian church (who knew only one God, Jesus[Jehovah Saviour]).

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the
Lord's brother.
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication,
with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

They must attempt to Biblically prove three gods, while knowing that
they are going to tack a "one god" disclaimer on the end to try to appear
"scriptural". Yet their gods are a "they" rather than a "he".

When pinned down concerning areas of gross disobediance they want to
talk about "love" and try to appear gentle and "loving", while their
cup still drips with the blood of thousands of true Christians.

There's nothing "Christian" about the RCC.

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of
her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication
with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the
abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come

out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that
ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath
remembered her iniquities.

The RCC is the Great Whore. It is no suprise when her members
brazenly blaspheme against God, it is the nature of a harlot.

Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and
wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE
GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The church of "mystery trinity"

Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-3606 USR-H16/V.34

--

The information presented by me should be considered on the basis of
its factual content rather than any initial impression. For additional info:
-={ PreRapture BBS 919-286-2100 33600bps / Telnet to PRIME.ORG }=-
http://www.prime.org Home of the PRIME Christian Network
Are the false christians pitching fits because I call them names,
or because I am proving my allegations from their own Bibles?
(New feature on web site of trinity cults embracing canine morals)

Michael W. Christy

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Mar 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/28/97

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Rev. Steve Winter wrote:

>
> Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-xxxx

Oh...boy...Stevy is here...another wacko christian nut.

:)

_____________________________
( )
( Wow! They even let Mike )
( Have a Site! )
(______________ ___________)
(_)
O
o
\\\\\//
|_ _|
(.) (.)
+=====================oOO==(_)==OOo========================+
| |
| Mike W. Christy |
| http://home.earthlink.net/~mwchristy/ |
| |
| oooO Oooo |
| ( ) ( ) |
+========================\ (==) /==========================+
\ )( /
~ ~

.

Christopher Beattie

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Mar 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/28/97

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People of the Roman Catholic Faith do not simply follow "the Religion."
Nor do we do anything that is the opposite of the Bible. Now it is true
if you take the Bible, like many fundamentalists seem to do, put it in
a blender, shread it to pieces, and take from it, partial quotes
completely out of context, then you could paste an argument that we
do not follow those quotes, but you could paste almost any argument
you want.

But if you want to look at the Bible, then look at the whole Bible,
in proper context. Paul instructs his readers to hold fast to the
traditions which were given to them, both written and oral. Paul
instructs his readers in another place that they should listen to
the Church of God, which is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Jesus didn't simply go about abolishing rules. Rather, he looked
at what the rules were and what they were supposed to do, to make
you holy, to help you to love God and love neighbor. He detested
those who followed the law simply for show and who failed to follow
the true spirit of the law.

Still it is true, one needs to jude a person by his actions, not
by any religious affiliations. While I believe that the Catholic
Church is the institution that Jesus Christ established for the
whole world, I have met very holy men and women who were not
Catholic. Some were not even Christians.

Douglas Nicholson

unread,

Mar 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/28/97

to

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Sean Roberts <se...@timetrend.com> wrote in article
<01bc3b17$a5f4c620$4e591bcc@seanr>...

> You can not judge people by their Religion. God does not judge your
> religion he judges all people personally by their heart.

Care to quote scripture on your position?
Sean sounds like your trying to say that if your a good person you get to
go to heaven! Simply not the case my friend.

As for the RCC it has a lot of followers but it is not Christian!

By their teaching you will know who they are.

2 John 7-11

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look
to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but
that we receive a full reward.

( Read this part carefully Sean!)

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father
and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not
into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God
speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Now Sean if you want a further look at Catholic doctrine take a gander at
RCC Catechism and see
how it stacks up to the Word of God our Savior Lord Jesus Christ!

Here is just one example of bogus doctrine from the RCC. I have borrowed
this from the Jack Chick
web site. see http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_03.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
Catholicism teaches that it has the power and authority to
forgive
people's sins. Here are a few quotes from the Catechism.
(Please
note that whenever the Catechism mentions the "Church," it is
referring to the "Roman Catholic church" ):

"There is no offense, however serious, that the Church
cannot forgive." Pg. 256, #982

"By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to
forgive the sins of the baptized..." Pg. 257, #986

"The Church, who through the bishop and his priests
forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ..." Pg.
363-364, #1448

Does the Catholic church have power to forgive sins? Let' s
see
what the Scriptures say:

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can
forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted,
forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake
hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32

According to Scripture, God wants His children to come
straight
to Him for forgiveness of sins, not to a church:

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of
grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to
help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

This verse loudly proclaims that forgiveness of sins comes
from
God's throne, not from a church. Still, Catholicism teaches a
contrary doctrine:

"Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the
sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive
all sins 'in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Spirit.' " Pg. 367, #1461

"The Church must be able to forgive all penitents their
offenses, even if they should sin until the last moment
of their lives." Pg. 255, #979

However, this man-made doctrine contradicts God' s written
Word. Many Bible characters freely approached God's throne for
forgiveness of sins. The psalmist went straight to God:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee... I said, I will
confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou
forgavest the iniquity of my sin..." Psalm 32:5

King David went directly to God to ask forgiveness for his
sins:

"Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive
all my sins." Psalm 25:18

In Psalm 51, David asks God for forgiveness again:

"Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse
me from my sin. Against thee, thee only, have I
sinned, and done this evil in thy sight..." Psalm 51:2,4

King Solomon was also aware that he and all the children of
Israel could go straight to God to receive forgiveness for
their
sins:

"Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy
servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall
make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling
place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest,
forgive." 2 Chronicles 6:21

God tells people to come to Him for forgiveness:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall
humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and
turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from
heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal
their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

God never requires anyone to go through a church to receive
forgiveness for their sins.

"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and
plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon
thee." Psalm 86:5

"... if any man have a quarrel against any: even as
Christ forgave you, so also do ye." Colossians 3:13

Why then would the Catholic church insist that forgiveness of
sins
is only available through her? The following Catechism quote
provides the answer:

" Were there no forgiveness of sins in the Church,
there would be no hope of life to come or eternal
liberation. Let us thank God who has given his Church
such a gift." Pg. 256, #983

Rather than looking to Jesus for forgiveness of sins and
eternal
life, Roman Catholics are taught that their sins can only be
forgiven through the Catholic church. Whether intentional or
not,
this doctrine keeps people in bondage to the Catholic church.

Conclusion

Once again, God' s Word stands on one side, while the
traditions
of men stand on the other. God says He alone forgives sins,
while
Catholic tradition contends that the Catholic church has the
power
to forgive sins. Which side will you choose?

If you want to learn more about why Catholics are not Christian there is a
nice list of books
you can read in your spare time at
http://www.chick.com/books/books.htm#catholcm

Books On Catholicism/Ecumenism

A Woman Rides the Beast, by Dave Hunt
All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen
Answers To My Catholic Friends, by Thomas Heinze
Born-Again Catholics and the Mass, by William C.
Standridge
50 Years in the "Church" of Rome, by Charles Chiniquy
Secret History of the Jesuits, by Edmond Paris
Smokescreens, by Jack T. Chick ** Read this book online.
http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm
The Myth of Mary, by César Vidal
Understanding Roman Catholicism, by Rick Jones ** Read
this
book online. http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm
Vatican Billions, by Avro Manhattan
What's Happening in the Roman Church, by William C
Standridge

Blessing to all
yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ
Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com

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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"> Sean Roberts <se...@timetrend.com> =
wrote in article <01bc3b17$a5f4c620$4e591bcc@seanr>... > You can not judge people by their =
Religion. God does not judge your > religion he judges all people =
personally by their heart.      Care to =
quote scripture on your position? Sean sounds like your trying to =
say that if your a good person you get to go to heaven! Simply not the =
case my friend.  As for the RCC it has a lot of followers =
but it is not Christian! By their teaching you will know who =
they are. 2 John 7-11 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, =
who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a =
deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to =
yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but =
that we receive a full reward. =
            &=
nbsp;    ( Read this part carefully =
Sean!) 9 Whosoever =
transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. =
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the =
Father and the Son. 10 If =
there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not =
into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 =
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil =
deeds. Now Sean if you want a =
further look at Catholic doctrine take a gander at RCC Catechism and see =
 how it stacks up to the Word of God our Savior Lord Jesus =
Christ! Here is just one example of bogus doctrine from the RCC. =
I have borrowed this from the Jack Chick web site. see =
http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_03.htm -------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------ =
            C=
atholicism teaches that it has the power and authority to forgive =
            p=
eople's sins. Here are a few quotes from the Catechism. (Please =
            n=
ote that whenever the Catechism mentions the "Church," it =
is =
            r=
eferring to the "Roman Catholic church" ): =
            &=
nbsp;    "There is no offense, however serious, =
that the Church =
            &=
nbsp;    cannot forgive." Pg. 256, #982 =
            &=
nbsp;    "By Christ's will, the Church =
possesses the power to =
            &=
nbsp;    forgive the sins of the baptized..." =
Pg. 257, #986 =
            &=
nbsp;    "The Church, who through the bishop =
and his priests =
            &=
nbsp;    forgives sins in the name of Jesus =
Christ..." Pg. =
            &=
nbsp;    363-364, #1448 =
            D=
oes the Catholic church have power to forgive sins? Let' s see =
            w=
hat the Scriptures say: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Why doth this man thus speak =
blasphemies? who can =
            &=
nbsp;    forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 =
 =
            &=
nbsp;    "And be ye kind one to another, =
tenderhearted, =
            &=
nbsp;    forgiving one another, even as God for =
Christ's sake =
            &=
nbsp;    hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32 =
 =
            A=
ccording to Scripture, God wants His children to come straight =
            t=
o Him for forgiveness of sins, not to a church: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Let us therefore come boldly unto the =
throne of =
            &=
nbsp;    grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find =
grace to =
            &=
nbsp;    help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16 =
 =
            T=
his verse loudly proclaims that forgiveness of sins comes from =
            G=
od's throne, not from a church. Still, Catholicism teaches a =
            c=
ontrary doctrine: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue =
of the =
            &=
nbsp;    sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to =
forgive =
            &=
nbsp;    all sins 'in the name of the Father, and of =
the Son, and =
            &=
nbsp;    of the Holy Spirit.' " Pg. 367, =
#1461 =
            &=
nbsp;    "The Church must be able to forgive =
all penitents their =
            &=
nbsp;    offenses, even if they should sin until the =
last moment =
            &=
nbsp;    of their lives." Pg. 255, #979 =
 =
            H=
owever, this man-made doctrine contradicts God' s written =
            W=
ord. Many Bible characters freely approached God's throne for =
            f=
orgiveness of sins. The psalmist went straight to God: =
            &=
nbsp;    "I acknowledged my sin unto thee... I =
said, I will =
            &=
nbsp;    confess my transgressions unto the LORD; =
and thou =
            &=
nbsp;    forgavest the iniquity of my sin..." =
Psalm 32:5 =
            K=
ing David went directly to God to ask forgiveness for his sins: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Look upon mine affliction and my =
pain; and forgive =
            &=
nbsp;    all my sins." Psalm 25:18 =
            I=
n Psalm 51, David asks God for forgiveness again: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Wash me thoroughly from mine =
iniquity, and cleanse =
            &=
nbsp;    me from my sin. Against thee, thee only, =
have I =
            &=
nbsp;    sinned, and done this evil in thy =
sight..." Psalm 51:2,4 =
            K=
ing Solomon was also aware that he and all the children of =
            I=
srael could go straight to God to receive forgiveness for their =
            s=
ins: =
            &=
nbsp;    "Hearken therefore unto the =
supplications of thy =
            &=
nbsp;    servant, and of thy people Israel, which =
they shall =
            &=
nbsp;    make toward this place: hear thou from thy =
dwelling =
            &=
nbsp;    place, even from heaven; and when thou =
hearest, =
            &=
nbsp;    forgive." 2 Chronicles 6:21 =
 =
            G=
od tells people to come to Him for forgiveness: =
            &=
nbsp;    "If my people, which are called by my =
name, shall =
            &=
nbsp;    humble themselves, and pray, and seek my =
face, and =
            &=
nbsp;    turn from their wicked ways; then will I =
hear from =
            &=
nbsp;    heaven, and will forgive their sin, and =
will heal =
            &=
nbsp;    their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14 =
 =
            G=
od never requires anyone to go through a church to receive =
            f=
orgiveness for their sins. =
            &=
nbsp;    "For thou, Lord, art good, and ready =
to forgive; and =
            &=
nbsp;    plenteous in mercy unto all them that call =
upon =
            &=
nbsp;    thee." Psalm 86:5 =
            &=
nbsp;    "... if any man have a quarrel against =
any: even as =
            &=
nbsp;    Christ forgave you, so also do ye." =
Colossians 3:13 =
            W=
hy then would the Catholic church insist that forgiveness of sins =
            i=
s only available through her? The following Catechism quote =
            p=
rovides the answer: =
            &=
nbsp;    " Were there no forgiveness of sins in =
the Church, =
            &=
nbsp;    there would be no hope of life to come or =
eternal =
            &=
nbsp;    liberation. Let us thank God who has given =
his Church =
            &=
nbsp;    such a gift." Pg. 256, =
#983 =
            R=
ather than looking to Jesus for forgiveness of sins and eternal =
            l=
ife, Roman Catholics are taught that their sins can only be =
            f=
orgiven through the Catholic church. Whether intentional or not, =
            t=
his doctrine keeps people in bondage to the Catholic church. =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;      Conclusion =
            O=
nce again, God' s Word stands on one side, while the traditions =
            o=
f men stand on the other. God says He alone forgives sins, while =
            C=
atholic tradition contends that the Catholic church has the power =
            t=
o forgive sins. Which side will you choose? If you want to =
learn more about why Catholics are not Christian there is a nice list of =
books you can read in your spare time at   http://www.chick.com/books/books.htm#catholcm <br=

> =

&=
nbsp;  Books On Catholicism/Ecumenism =
            &=
nbsp;   A Woman Rides the Beast, by Dave Hunt =
            &=
nbsp;   All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen =
 =
            &=
nbsp;   Answers To My Catholic Friends, by Thomas Heinze =
 =
            &=
nbsp;   Born-Again Catholics and the Mass, by William C. =
Standridge =
            &=
nbsp;   50 Years in the "Church" of Rome, by =
Charles Chiniquy =
            &=
nbsp;   Secret History of the Jesuits, by Edmond Paris =
 =
            &=
nbsp;   Smokescreens, by Jack T. Chick ** Read this book =
online. =
            &=

nbsp;   <font =

color=3D"#0000FF">http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm <f=
ont color=3D"#000000"> =
            &=
nbsp;   The Myth of Mary, by C=E9sar Vidal =
            &=
nbsp;   Understanding Roman Catholicism, by Rick Jones ** =
Read this =
            &=
nbsp;   book online. http://www.chick.com/books/160/160cont.htm =
            &=
nbsp;   Vatican Billions, by Avro Manhattan =
            &=
nbsp;   What's Happening in the Roman Church, by William =
C Standridge =
            &=
nbsp;      Blessing to all yours in =
our Savior Lord Jesus Christ Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com

</f=
ont></font=

></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC3B8A.43D09500--

ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 04:51:14 GMT, stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter)
wrote:

>I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
>of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
>much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
>deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.

Steve, you might be surprised to note that murder has been an aspect
of all Christian denominations at some time or other. Perhaps there
are one or two honourable exceptions, the Mennonites and the Amish,
but the majority of the Christian world has at one time or another
engaged in murder to further their beliefs. Just like the Catholic
church stood by and watched while the Nazis committed mass genocide,
many the good Protestant folk of the American South either ignored or
supported the KKK and their activities.

>To be a happy catholic one must simply close one's mind to historical
>events. One must reject most of the Bible that pertains to the new
>testament church (including the teachings of Peter). The RCC must
>simultaneously claim Peter as "infallable pope" while declaring that
>he disobeyed Jesus by teaching JESUS NAME baptism (Acts 2:38). They
>must teach that Acts 2:38 is disobediance to Matt 28:19 (rather than
>the FULFILLMENT that it *really* was).

Steve, I take it that you have not yet finished studying Acts 2:38.
When you have, and when you have read the remainder of the book you
purport to believe in, then maybe we will take you seriously.

>The information presented by me should be considered on the basis of
>its factual content rather than any initial impression.

Rating -----
Factual Content : 0%
Hysterical Ranting : 100%

Rev Noel
(ULC)

William Viteri

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

When I see and read about such pillars of fundamental Christian
Evangelistm such as Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Tim Baker and other
tele-evangelists, I know your Reverend Winter Christianity. You use your
bible interpretation to extort money for such false pretenses as charity
(from the poor brain-washed followers for personal enrichment. Your
attacks and insults on other churches indicate yout hypocrisy. Why
don't you grow up and stop attacking others for your own inadequacies,
low I.Q. level and moronic attitude.

Untroubled

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

Michael W. Christy wrote:
>
> Rev. Steve Winter wrote:
>
> >
> > Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-xxxx
>
> Oh...boy...Stevy is here...another wacko christian nut.
>

> :)13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and
save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they
shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not
be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy
merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter;
none shall save thee. Regards, Untroubled.

> _____________________________
> ( )
> ( Wow! They even let Mike )

> ( Have a Hot Seat. )

Rev. Steve Winter

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk spake thusly and wrote:

>Steve, you might be surprised to note that murder has been an aspect
>of all Christian denominations at some time or other. Perhaps there

The true Church was never a trinity denomination. The true Christian Church
did not denominate down from the RCC. The false church is following a manmade
teaching. They have to go to "denominal opinions of men" that originated in
the 2nd and 3rd century to explain and discuss their beliefs. It is also
interesting that the same bunch at Rome that dreamed up the trinity, also
ushered in the dark ages by killing people for possessing Bibles.

It is important to realize that the Catholic Church is the "Great Whore" in
the book of Rev. and the "mother of harlots" (the harlots being the
denominations that retain the trinity heresy). The harlot wants relationship
with man, but will not "take the man's name" and will not forsake her
worldly loves for her husband. Just as the harlot churches will not use
Jesus name in baptism, and will not forsake the sins of the world.

Here I will show some of the apostles writing that exposes certain of
the false doctrines taught by the harlot churches.:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one
of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye
shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

* (the harlot trinity denom churches use the titles of their 3 gods if they
even baptise at all. They ignore Matt 28:19 in which Jesus said to use a
"name," and they just "parrot" the command instead of obeying it). *

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be
preached in his NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and
vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the
world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

* (the harlot trinitarian church doesn't believe that the fullness is in
Jesus,
they don't believe that "ye are complete in him", they teach the
tradition of men from the 2nd and 3rd century) *

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in HIM, which is the head of all
principality and power: Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any
other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved. Also Acts 8:16, 10:48, 10:43, 19:5, Col 3:17

* Here now are some historical references showing where tradition
replaced apostolic truth.: *

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA, 11th Ed. Vol. 3 Page 365-366, "The baptismal
formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father,
Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the 2nd Century." Vol. 3
Page 82 "Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took
place in the Name of Jesus Christ."

CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church always
baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development of the trinity
doctrine in the 2nd Century."

1913 CATHOLIC ENCYCLPEDIA, Vol. 2, page 365, Here the Catholic
acknowledge that baptism was changed by the Catholic Church.

HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Vol. 2 pages 377-378-389, "The
Christian baptism was administered using the Name of Jesus. The use of
the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early
church history, baptism was always in the Name of the Lord Jesus, until
the time of Justin Martyr when the trinity formula was used." Hastings
also said in Vol. 2 Page 377, commenting on Acts 2:38, "NAME was an
ancient synonym for person. Payment was always made in the name of
some person referring to ownership. Therefore one being baptized in
Jesus Name became his personal property." "Ye are Christ's." I Cor. 3:23.

NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol. 22 Page 477, "The term "trinity"
was originated by Tertullain, Roman Catholic Church father."

TYNDALE NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARIES: "... the true explanation why the
early church did not at once administer baptism in the threefold name is that
the words of Mat 28:19 were not meant as a baptismal formula. [Jesus] was not
giving instructions about the actual words to be used in the service of
baptism, but, as has already been suggested, was indicating that the baptized
person would by baptism pass into the possession of the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost."

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS, James Hastings, p.384, "there is no
evidence [in early church history] for the use of the triune name."

Rev. Steve Winter 919-286-3606 PreRapture BBS
check out http://209.36.41.2
--

The information presented by me should be considered on the basis of

Roxanne

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Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:14:36 -0500, Christopher Beattie
<chr...@Tansoft.com> wrote:
>
>Still it is true, one needs to jude a person by his actions, not
>by any religious affiliations. While I believe that the Catholic
>Church is the institution that Jesus Christ established for the
>whole world, I have met very holy men and women who were not
>Catholic. Some were not even Christians.

Thank you!

(Oh, BTW, I'm one of those very holy non-Christian women.)

Roxanne

E-mail address altered to thwart automatic replies and
knee-jerk responses.

steve

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is
going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???

stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter) wrote:

Rev. Steve Winter

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

steve <sm...@hotmail.com> spake thusly and wrote:

>Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is
>going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???

I am confident that Dahmer was deceived by false christian scum. I have heard
nothing to convince me that he ever obeyed Acts 2:38. He and all other
non-christians like you mentioned will toast with the popes.

the...@gte.net

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

Rev. Steve Winter wrote:
>
> steve <sm...@hotmail.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is
> >going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???
>
> I am confident that Dahmer was deceived by false christian scum. I have heard
> nothing to convince me that he ever obeyed Acts 2:38. He and all other
> non-christians like you mentioned will toast with the popes.

> Not for nothing but faith without works is dead... as for the heaven or
hell arguement....I'm still at a loss for where in the scriptures does
it say that God created hell, let alone it being a fiery torment.
Wailing and gnashing of teeth I can find, Gehenah I can find... Ecc.
9:5,10 I CAN find (no devising, wages, work, pleasure, pane in the
grave{sheol, elsewhere translated hell}); but HELLs creation and
location I can't find...Tartarus I can find (2Peter 2:?)(refering to the
angels in Noahs time being imprisoned {could those have been the
imprisoned souls that Jesus visited and spoke the good news to})

But i digresss (I think),... oh yeah...was it "don't eat of the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil or you will surely die" or "was it don't
eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or you will surely
BURN for ETERINTY because I'M a real JERK!!!!!" I'd swear it was the
former, because Jehovah is a LOVING God... Besides the jews had no
heavenly promise... they were only rewarded with good fortune.

Christians, however are promised a reward of ETERNAL LIFE, no strings
attached... you can choose to play the game or go away.... God doesn't
punish the guy that came in last place, he rewards those that run the
fine race, and forgets those that don't.... BTW who ran against Lincoln,
Taylor, McKinley, Gates..... we don't remember the losers because they
don't count... If you don't play the game by the rules.. you lose....
and in most places you don't eternally torment the guy who came in
second or third or last... but you do remeber and reward the winner!

Professor

Charles

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to steve....@prime.org

GOOD WORD!!!!!!!

ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk

unread,

Mar 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/29/97

to

On 28 Mar 1997 22:22:42 GMT, "Douglas Nicholson"
<noah...@northlink.com> wrote:

>Care to quote scripture on your position?
>Sean sounds like your trying to say that if your a good person you get to
>go to heaven! Simply not the case my friend.

Please elaborate.

> As for the RCC it has a lot of followers but it is not Christian!

And you have scriptural evidence to support that claim?

>By their teaching you will know who they are.

Aha!

>Now Sean if you want a further look at Catholic doctrine take a gander at
>RCC Catechism and see
>how it stacks up to the Word of God our Savior Lord Jesus Christ!

So that Roman Catholics were foolish enough to put their beliefs in
print. Throughout every protestant denomination (and I should know, I
unfortunately grew up as one) there is tendency to twist, distort and
misuse scripture. It's not written down anywhere, but it does happen
all too frequently. As an example, the protestant 'renewed' churches
had the doctrine of 'shepherding' during the seventies. In the
eighties ninteties we've had the weird off-beam doctrines of the
Vineyard movement.

Don't be too quick to point the finger, as there'll be four more
pointing back at you.

Rev Noel
(ULC)

Paul Duca

unread,

Mar 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/31/97

to

steve wrote:
>
> Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is
> going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???

That is very likely...if Dahmer hadn't been murdered, he was going to
bleat to Dr. James Dobson how porn made him do all that, letting the
good doctor make a nice pile of moola by selling the tape of that
meeting in his Focus on the Family catalog--right next to the Ted Bundy
tape.

Ken Smith

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

In <19970401124...@ladder01.news.aol.com> jmari...@aol.com
writes:
>In article <33407D...@tiac.net>, Paul Duca <toms...@tiac.net>
writes:

Which was sold next to the Ronco Vegematic, for the amazing price of
$29.95.... Are there any *clean* Christians left in the media???

D.L. Scott

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

Rev. Steve Winter <stev...@gte.net> wrote in article
<333c4d5...@news2.gte.net>...

> I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
> of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
> much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
> deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.

Here we go again. Another narrow minded and misguided soul who believes
that, unless you believe EXACTLY as they do, you are going to hell. When
will these people EVER learn that we all have a right to our own faiths -
including our own forms of Christianity.

I am a Christian but I am not a Catholic. I am also happy to say that I am
not a member of the narrow minded religious right. I suspect that these
intolerant people are going to get a HUGE shock when they get to heaven and
see so many of those they hated and denegrated there with them.

In God's Peace,
Deni Scott

jmari...@aol.com

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

In article <33407D...@tiac.net>, Paul Duca <toms...@tiac.net> writes:

>steve wrote:
>>
>> Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is
>> going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???
>
> That is very likely...if Dahmer hadn't been murdered, he was going to
>bleat to Dr. James Dobson how porn made him do all that, letting the
>good doctor make a nice pile of moola by selling the tape of that
>meeting in his Focus on the Family catalog--right next to the Ted Bundy
>tape.

Why not both? See, I disagree that Catholics are not CHristian. I believe that the RC church has taught some very bad doctrine and that their teachers will have some answering to do, but that there
is a remnant there that will be just fine.

This is also a good case for faith vs. works. Mother Theresa's works seem to be done within the desire to serve God and are works through faith.

Just my 2 centavos.
Notice: I am not a pastor, deacon, or elder of any Calvary Chapel or affiliate church. My opinions and posts are my own, and should not be considered official Calvary Chapel positions.

May God bless you all.

Joe
<><

Lura Langenback

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

And there will be an even BIGGER shock when some find that even though
they said they were christian, they wont be in heaven (I am NOT assuming
that Deni Scott is not going to be in heaven. I suspect that she will be
there) And a shock when some get there, they will see many that they
thought were NOT christian will also be there. Interesting thought.
--
Lura Langenback (aka Sent1) bible...@centuryinter.net

Home page: http://members.tripod.com/~apostle1/index.html

steve

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

And an EVEN BIGGER shock to see Jesus was not a white man!!!!!!

Roger Cox

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

Christopher Beattie wrote:

> > You can not judge people by their Religion.

You're not suppose to judge at all. "Who knows the hearts of men, men
don't even know their own hearts". Only Jesus is able to judge. "Judge
not and you will not be judged. Condemn not and you will not be
condemned".

but a person doesnt have to have a Religion to get to be a Christian .
God is not Religion he is life, love, joy, hapiness, fun, etc...

Christian is defined as believing that Jesus Christ was God's Only Son
who saved the world by dying for our sins. Unless you believe this, you
are not a Christian. Then ...... "If you believe in Me, you will
believe the things I taught you and you will follow them. If you love
Me, you will obey My commmandments. The two greatest commandments are
To love God with all your heart, soul mind, strength, and might and to
Love your neighbor as yourself. Pray for your enemies. If anyone asks
you for your coat, give them your shirt as well. Lend to the people who
cannot pay you back. ....." Live according to the "Way", and people
will know you are a Christian and you belong to Me.

Paul Duca

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to D.L. Scott

D.L. Scott wrote:
>
> Rev. Steve Winter <stev...@gte.net> wrote in article
> <333c4d5...@news2.gte.net>...
> > I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
> > of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
> > much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
> > deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.
>
> Here we go again. Another narrow minded and misguided soul who believes
> that, unless you believe EXACTLY as they do, you are going to hell. When
> will these people EVER learn that we all have a right to our own faiths -
> including our own forms of Christianity.
>
> I am a Christian but I am not a Catholic. I am also happy to say that I am
> not a member of the narrow minded religious right. I suspect that these
> intolerant people are going to get a HUGE shock when they get to heaven and
> see so many of those they hated and denegrated there with them.
>
> In God's Peace,

How right you are, Brother! Although it may not happen for quite a
while even up there...since those kind of people will wall themselves
off immediately upon entrance, lest anyone else get the adoration of God
that is SUPPOSED to be theirs alone.

P.D.

Lapsed Catholic, for many reasons, but NOT because they're some kind of
un-Christian cult.

Tom Urban

unread,

Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to D.L. Scott

D.L. Scott wrote:
>
> Rev. Steve Winter <stev...@gte.net> wrote in article
> <333c4d5...@news2.gte.net>...
> > I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
> > of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
> > much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
> > deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.
>
> Here we go again. Another narrow minded and misguided soul who believes
> that, unless you believe EXACTLY as they do, you are going to hell. When
> will these people EVER learn that we all have a right to our own faiths -
> including our own forms of Christianity.
>
> I am a Christian but I am not a Catholic. I am also happy to say that I am
> not a member of the narrow minded religious right. I suspect that these
> intolerant people are going to get a HUGE shock when they get to heaven and
> see so many of those they hated and denegrated there with them.
>
> In God's Peace,

> Deni Scott

You say, "I suspect that these intolerant people are going to get a HUGE

shock when they get to heaven and see so many of those they hated and
denegrated there with them."

Where in your widest dreams do you feel that these bigoted fools would
ever share in a heaven? Again, the incredible arrogant bigot sees
himself as the only righteous person around.

No doubt, when he is playing with himself in front of a mirror, he sees
a saint! Blinded by years of isolation in a closed mind, he spews his
hate out on those who would welcome him.

The Jerry Faldwell's are here!. Hopefully the world will see them for
what they are......ignorant, intolerant, bigoted, self righteous,
terrorists of the extreme right!

Tom Urban

ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97

to

On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:29:59 GMT, stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter)
wrote:

>The true Church was never a trinity denomination. The true Christian Church

>did not denominate down from the RCC. The false church is following a manmade
>teaching. They have to go to "denominal opinions of men" that originated in
>the 2nd and 3rd century to explain and discuss their beliefs. It is also
>interesting that the same bunch at Rome that dreamed up the trinity, also
>ushered in the dark ages by killing people for possessing Bibles.

Steve, post some *real* evidence and we might just pay some attention
to your rantings.

Rev Noel
(ULC)

Timothy Consodine

unread,

Apr 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/2/97

to

Roger Cox wrote:
>
>
> Christian is defined as believing that Jesus Christ was God's Only Son
> who saved the world by dying for our sins. Unless you believe this, you
> are not a Christian. Then ...... "If you believe in Me, you will
> believe the things I taught you and you will follow them. If you love
> Me, you will obey My commmandments. The two greatest commandments are
> To love God with all your heart, soul mind, strength, and might and to
> Love your neighbor as yourself. Pray for your enemies. If anyone asks
> you for your coat, give them your shirt as well. Lend to the people who
> cannot pay you back. ....." Live according to the "Way", and people
> will know you are a Christian and you belong to Me.

Then why do you not believe what He taught about the Holy Eucharist? You
are in effect saying that "one is not a Christian" unless he is among
those who walked away and went with Him no more in John 6:66.

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in
you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I
will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and
my
blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood
abides
in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because
of
the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the
bread
which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he
who
eats this bread will live for ever."

John 6:60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a
hard
saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his
disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62
Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was
before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words
that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of
you
that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that
did
not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

John 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to
me
unless it is granted him by the Father." 66 After this many of his
disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to
the
twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68 Simon Peter answered him,
"Lord,
to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have
believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70
Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you
is a
devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of
the
twelve, was to betray him.

Matt 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and
broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my
body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to
them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the
covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it
and
gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do
this
in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying,
"This
cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. 21 But
behold the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. 22 For
the
Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom
he
is betrayed!" 23 And they began to question one another, which of them
it
was that would do this.

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you,
that
the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when
he
had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for
you.
Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the cup, after
supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as
often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat
this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he
comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in
an
unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the
Lord.

Scott David Smith

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Apr 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/2/97

to

Steve,

I am real sorry you have this understanding of Catholics. I am a
protestant minister. I can tell you Protestants are not the only poeple
going to heaven. That simply is an incorrect idea. I have come to know
several Catholics since the beginning of my ministry. Their
faithfullness to Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit is
unmistakeable. Yes I too have met Catholics I worry for, but I do the
same for folks who claim the Prostestant heritage. God can reveal
himself to the his children in any way he wants to. It is not for us to
limit God's power. Jesus' love is to powerful for us to make claims to
deny entire groups the ability to have a personal relationship with God.
Please do not put the love and power of God in a box and do not dictate
who God can and con not touch.

Prayerfully speaking I am,

Scott Smith

On
Tue, 1 Apr 1997 ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk wrote:

> Date: Tue, 01 APR 1997 22:27:09 GMT
> From: ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk
> Newgroups: alt.religion.christian.calvary-chapel, alt.bible.prophecy,
> alt.christnet, alt.religion.christian, alt.christnet.atheism,
> alt.christnet.bible, alt.christnet.christianlife,
> alt.christnet.evangelical, alt.christnet.hypocrisy,
> alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.christnet.public,
> alt.christnet.theology, alt.christnet.ethics,
> alt.religion.christian.last-days,
> alt.religion.christian.anabaptist.brethren,
> alt.religion.christian.20-something, alt.fan.steve-winter
> Subject: Re: Why Catholics are not Christian!

>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:29:59 GMT, stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter)
> wrote:
>

> >The true Church was never a trinity denomination. The true Christian Church
> >did not denominate down from the RCC. The false church is following a manmade
> >teaching. They have to go to "denominal opinions of men" that originated in
> >the 2nd and 3rd century to explain and discuss their beliefs. It is also
> >interesting that the same bunch at Rome that dreamed up the trinity, also
> >ushered in the dark ages by killing people for possessing Bibles.
>

Steve Adams

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Newsgroups restored. Mr Winter's attempts to deflect accurate criticism
caught.

stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter) wrote:

>Timothy Consodine <timo...@flash.net> spake thusly and wrote:
>
>>Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the cup, after
>>supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as
>>often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat
>>this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he
>>comes.
>> 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in
>>an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the
>>Lord.
>

>In remembrance, NOT a literal re-slaughter of God!!! ALL trinity filth are
>guilty of the above because they are not born again according to
>Acts 2:38/John 3:5 and are NOT CHRISTIAN and are NOT WORTHY since
>they have REJECTED the Name of Jesus in baptism.

1) The Roman church does NOT teach the "re-slaughter" of Christ. Period.
This is a falsehood, and you know it. What the Roman Church teaches is
that the sacrifice of the mass is linked timelessly to that moment in
history when Jesus died on the cross. It is NOT a resacrifice.

2) While the Roman church teaches transubstantiation, not all Trinitarians
practice or believe this. Most non-Catholics believe that the
Lord's Supper is memorial in purpose (Lutherans have a middle
position on this one).

3) Acts 2:38 is meaningless without Matthew 28:19. And very early writings
(early 2nd century) support the Trinitarian baptismal formula.

>I just had a thought that I'd like to share with you. It dawned
>on me what might be the basic misunderstanding of those that adhere
>to the antichrist system. They merely misunderstand what "serving
>God" means.
>
>Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
>Psa 100:2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence
>with singing.
>
>They got confused somehow (maybe too much time spent reading *about*
>the Bible, rather than reading *the* Bible).

I agree that Roman Catholics do not generally read the bible enugh...but
you are the one who is confused here. You don't understand what the Roman
Catholic Church teaches and mistate things. Why? Because your ideas are
bankrupt.

>They seem to think that
>"serving god" means turning their god(s) into cookies
False. The wafer becomes God in Roman Theolgy, not the other way around.
And "serviing God" to a Catholic means doing His will and His work.

>and then serving the cookies to the congregation (explaining to the
>congregation that the cookies are really god,
> the "call no man father" guy says so, so
>it *must* be, right?).
This is true - the wafer retains the "accidents" of bread, but is stated to
be the actual body of Christ. As for calling priests father, I do agree
that there are problems with the verse you cite.

See, I can actually agree with you when you get it right - you, on the
other hand, have NEVER acknowledged truth posted by another person.

>Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is
>your Father, which is in heaven.
>
>But actually "serving God" means obeying His commandments and
>living holy and trying to help others to escape the snare of the devil.
>
>It has nothing whatsoever to do with trying to turn God into
>snack food and then "serving him".
A play on words. But something that no Catholic believes.

>I wonder how some of these guys can actually convince people that
>they can call the God of heaven down, turn Him into a cookie and
>then re-break His body week after week.

Too bad you don't understand the RCC theology. You have it backwards and
make false statements about "re-breaking" and "re-slaughter" that simply
aren't true.

-Steve
The opinions expressed above are those of the author
---NASCAR-#7-#28-#51---
sad...@mcs.net "Space-age cybernomad" Steve Adams
http://www.inil.com/users/adams

Douglas Nicholson

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC3FA2.ECEDF1C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Timothy Consodine <timo...@flash.net> wrote in article
<3342FC...@flash.net>...

> Roger Cox wrote:
> >
> >
> > Christian is defined as believing that Jesus Christ was God's Only Son
> > who saved the world by dying for our sins. Unless you believe this,
you
> > are not a Christian. Then ...... "If you believe in Me, you will
> > believe the things I taught you and you will follow them. If you love
> > Me, you will obey My commmandments. The two greatest commandments are
> > To love God with all your heart, soul mind, strength, and might and to
> > Love your neighbor as yourself. Pray for your enemies. If anyone asks
> > you for your coat, give them your shirt as well. Lend to the people
who
> > cannot pay you back. ....." Live according to the "Way", and people
> > will know you are a Christian and you belong to Me.
>
>
> Then why do you not believe what He taught about the Holy Eucharist? You
> are in effect saying that "one is not a Christian" unless he is among
> those who walked away and went with Him no more in John 6:66.

Dear "Hannibal the Cannibal" please visit these fine web sites and find out
why Christians don't eat
the little Jesus cookie like the Catholics do. Read these fine online
books!

http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm The Wafer God?

http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_12.htm Transubstantiation: During the
mass, priests allegedly have the power to supernaturally turn the bread and
wine into the actual and literal
body and blood of Jesus Christ:

http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_13.htm Does partaking of the
Eucharist have power to cleanse Catholics

http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_14.htm Partaking of the Eucharist
purportedly gives Catholics who are still alive an opportunity to help the
dead:

http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm This online book blows away the
ecumenical smoke so you can see the truth...

blessing to all

yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ
Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com>

------=_NextPart_000_01BC3FA2.ECEDF1C0

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"> Timothy Consodine <timo...@flash.net> =

wrote in article <<font =

color=3D"#0000FF">3342FC...@flash.net>... > Roger Cox wrote: > > > =
> > > Christian is defined as believing that Jesus Christ =
was God's Only Son > > who saved the world by dying for our =
sins.  Unless you believe this, you > > are not a =
Christian.  Then ...... "If you believe in Me, you =
will > > believe the things I taught you and you will follow =
them.  If you love > > Me, you will obey My commmandments. =
 The two greatest commandments are > > To love God with =
all your heart, soul mind, strength, and might and to > > Love =
your neighbor as yourself. Pray for your enemies. If anyone asks > =
> you for your coat, give them your shirt as well.  Lend to the =
people who > > cannot pay you back. ....."  Live =
according to the "Way", and people > > will know you =
are a Christian and you belong to Me. > > > Then why =
do you not believe what He taught about the Holy Eucharist? You > =
are in effect saying that "one is not a Christian" unless he =
is among > those who walked away and went with Him no more in John =
6:66. Dear "Hannibal the Cannibal" please visit these =
fine web sites and find out why Christians don't eat the little =
Jesus cookie like the Catholics do.  Read these fine online =
books! http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm =
   The Wafer =
God? http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_12.htm =
   Transubstantiation: During =
the mass, priests allegedly have the power to supernaturally turn the =
bread and wine into the actual and literal body and blood of Jesus =
Christ: http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_13.htm =
   Does partaking of the =
Eucharist have power to cleanse Catholics http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_14.htm =
  Partaking of the Eucharist =
purportedly gives Catholics who are still alive an opportunity to help =
the dead:    http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm =
 This online book blows away the =
ecumenical smoke so you can see the truth... blessing to =
all yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com><font =

color=3D"#000000"> 
</f=

ont></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC3FA2.ECEDF1C0--

RevMike

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Tom Urban <thoma...@aol.com> wrote in article <3341B0...@aol.com>...

> You say, "I suspect that these intolerant people are going to get a HUGE
> shock when they get to heaven and see so many of those they hated and
> denegrated there with them."
>
> Where in your widest dreams do you feel that these bigoted fools would
> ever share in a heaven? Again, the incredible arrogant bigot sees
> himself as the only righteous person around.

Those of us that are Christians HAVE no righteousness, except for the
Righteousness that Jesus brings when He comes into a life.

> No doubt, when he is playing with himself in front of a mirror, he sees
> a saint! Blinded by years of isolation in a closed mind, he spews his
> hate out on those who would welcome him.

I find it interesting in this day and age that telling someone that "Jesus
is the Way, the Truth and the Life" and that Jesus died for their sins is
"spewing hate". It would be the ultimate in "hate" not to tell them, since
we would be condemning them to an eternity in Hell. A closed mind? Well, I
guess if you call having escaped the cesspool of the philosophies of this
world and being unwilling to jump in the next sewer having a closed mind, I
plead guilty.

> The Jerry Faldwell's are here!. Hopefully the world will see them for
> what they are......ignorant, intolerant, bigoted, self righteous,
> terrorists of the extreme right!
>
> Tom Urban

I love the way that you folks have formulated in your mind the above image
of Christians. See, if you label us with the negatives, then you get the
positives for yourself and, oh what a good person you are!! If you believe
Christians to be ignorant, then you don't know many real Christians (such
as Dr. Duane Gish). The other attributes are pure hogwash (we've already
dealt with the self righteous bit). Can you seriously think that anyone who
has the Love of Jesus in their heart and is trying to walk in His Footsteps
could possibly be a terrorist? Show me anywhere in scripture where Jesus
said to be a terrorist.

--
Rev. Mike and Virgie Bugal
Heartland Chapel
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5349
A.I.I.M.
http://www.seanet.com/~revmikeb/

John Lauzon

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Paul Duca (toms...@tiac.net) wrote:
: steve wrote:
: >
: > Im sure you also believe that born-again Jeffrey Dahmer is

: > going to Heaven while Catholic Mother Theresa is going to Hell, right???

: That is very likely...if Dahmer hadn't been murdered, he was going to

: bleat to Dr. James Dobson how porn made him do all that, letting the
: good doctor make a nice pile of moola by selling the tape of that
: meeting in his Focus on the Family catalog--right next to the Ted Bundy
: tape.

Whether your Catholic or not, those who know the teachings of Jesus and
don't practice them are not likely to go to Heaven.

Our Lady of Medjugorje's Message to Humanity
As Received by the Visionary
Maria Pavlovic Lunetti
From Medjugorje, Bosnia-Hercegovina

"Dear children!

Today, in a special way, I invite you to take the cross in the hands and
to meditate on the wounds of Jesus. Ask of Jesus to heal your wounds,
which you, dear children, during your life sustained because of your sins
or the sins of your parents. Only in this way, dear children, you will
understand that the world is in need of healing of faith in God the
Creator. By Jesus' passion and death on the cross, you will understand
that only through prayer you, too, can become true apostles of faith;
when, in simplicity and prayer, you live faith which is a gift.Thank you
for having responded to my call."

*^*^*^*^**^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^**^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

If you would like to receive contemporary messages of The Blessed Virgin
Mary, please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list...

God bless
John :)
--
\ [P] / o<<<<<>>>>> "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<>>>>>o \ [P] /
-- [[[R]]] -- I extend to you who is reading this .sig the -- [[[R]]] --
/ [A] \ "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE" / [A] \
/ [Y] \ o<<<<<>>>>>"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<>>>>>o / [Y] \

Rev. Steve Winter

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Timothy Consodine <timo...@flash.net> spake thusly and wrote:

>Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the cup, after
>supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as
>often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat
>this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he
>comes.
> 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in
>an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the
>Lord.

In remembrance, NOT a literal re-slaughter of God!!! ALL trinity filth are
guilty of the above because they are not born again according to
Acts 2:38/John 3:5 and are NOT CHRISTIAN and are NOT WORTHY since they have
REJECTED the Name of Jesus in baptism.

I just had a thought that I'd like to share with you. It dawned

on me what might be the basic misunderstanding of those that adhere
to the antichrist system. They merely misunderstand what "serving
God" means.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 100:2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence
with singing.

They got confused somehow (maybe too much time spent reading *about*

the Bible, rather than reading *the* Bible). They seem to think that
"serving god" means turning their god(s) into cookies and then serving

the cookies to the congregation (explaining to the congregation that
the cookies are really god, the "call no man father" guy says so, so
it *must* be, right?).

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is

your Father, which is in heaven.

But actually "serving God" means obeying His commandments and
living holy and trying to help others to escape the snare of the devil.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with trying to turn God into
snack food and then "serving him".

I wonder how some of these guys can actually convince people that
they can call the God of heaven down, turn Him into a cookie and
then re-break His body week after week.

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived.

(I in no way refer to the true Church observing the Lord's Supper
in "remembrance", but rather the heathen whore's claims to turn
wafers into one of her "god persons".)

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he
had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do
ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The RCC is The Great Whore. The harlot daughters are the trinity
abominations, oops, I mean "denominations".

I hope this helps...

Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-3606 USR-H16/V.34

avenger

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

In <01bc3fe5$fb1131c0$8820...@netcom.ix.netcom.com>, "Douglas Nicholson" <noah...@northlink.com> writes:
>Dear "Hannibal the Cannibal" please visit these fine web sites and find out
>why Christians don't eat
>the little Jesus cookie like the Catholics do. Read these fine online
>books!
>
>http://www.chick.com/books/153/153_01.htm The Wafer God?
>
>http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_12.htm Transubstantiation: During the
>mass, priests allegedly have the power to supernaturally turn the bread and
>wine into the actual and literal body and blood of Jesus Christ:
>
>http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_13.htm Does partaking of the
>Eucharist have power to cleanse Catholics
>
>http://www.chick.com/books/160/160_14.htm Partaking of the Eucharist
>purportedly gives Catholics who are still alive an opportunity to help the
>dead:
>
>http://www.chick.com/books/153/153cont.htm This online book blows away the
>ecumenical smoke so you can see the truth...
>
>blessing to all
>yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ
>Douglas Nicholson <noah...@northlink.com>

And in return, Doug, would you be so kind as to check out

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

It has the Scriptural defense of over three dozen Catholic teachings,
including one page with 25 printed pages of Scripture supporting the
Catholic teaching on the Eucharist. If you want some of the Scriptural
foundations of Catholicism, check it out.

Steve Kellmeyer
Network Analyst, Turner SSB
kell...@uiuc.edu
----------------------------------------------------
"It is a very great poverty that a child must die so you
may live as you wish." - Mother Theresa

avenger

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

In <3343D9...@Tansoft.com>, Christopher Beattie <chr...@Tansoft.com> writes:

>Steve Adams wrote:
>>
>> This is true - the wafer retains the "accidents" of bread, but is stated to
>> be the actual body of Christ. As for calling priests father, I do agree
>> that there are problems with the verse you cite.

1 Cor. 4:14-16 I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish
you as my beloved children. 15 Even if you should have countless
guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father
in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 Therefore, I urge you, be
imitators of me.

IN addition to Chris's excellent exegesis below, we should consider that
Paul not only called himself "father", he insisted that we imitate him.

Catholics are thus only following what Scripture commands through Paul's
commandments to us in Scripture.

>
><G> The "Reverend" makes a "father" joke. To bad he doesn't realize
>the irony. <G> Well let's look at all of Matthew 23:8-12.
>
> 8 But you are not to be called rabbi,
> for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
> 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have
> one Father, who is in heaven.
> 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master,
> the Christ.
> 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;
> 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever
> humbles himself will be exalted.
>
>Thus anyone who calles them selves "worthy of reverence" is
>exaulting himself. Anyone who uses the title of "Doctor" is
>guilty of calling themselves a "teacher." (for that is what
>it means in latin) Even the Apostle Paul is guilty of a
>over strict interpertation of these verses since he refered
>to himself as the "spiritual father" of those he preached to.
>
>Thus "reverend" "doctor" or "father" is not the issue, but
>those who use these titles to "exault" himself is the issue.
>We are all called to be humble. But in exaulting himself,
>Rev Winter winds up only humbled.

>--
>| _______ |Christopher Beattie | 801 Eisenhower Dr|
>| /__ __\ Peace |Tantalus Inc. | Key West, FL 33040|
>| / \ and |Development Div. |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
>| /___\ Good |chr...@Tansoft.com | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
>| |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp> |

Mike Maturen

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Christopher Beattie wrote:

>
> Steve Adams wrote:
> >
> > Newsgroups restored. Mr Winter's attempts to deflect accurate criticism
> > caught.
>

> Newsgroups restored evern better. alt.fan.steve-winter removed as well as
> alt.christnet.hypocrisy.

>
> > stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter) wrote:
> >

> > >In remembrance, NOT a literal re-slaughter of God!!! ALL trinity filth are
> > >guilty of the above because they are not born again according to
> > >Acts 2:38/John 3:5 and are NOT CHRISTIAN and are NOT WORTHY since
> > >they have REJECTED the Name of Jesus in baptism.
> >

> > 1) The Roman church does NOT teach the "re-slaughter" of Christ. Period.
> > This is a falsehood, and you know it. What the Roman Church teaches is
> > that the sacrifice of the mass is linked timelessly to that moment in
> > history when Jesus died on the cross. It is NOT a resacrifice.
>

> I would also like to point out what rememberance means from the perspective
> of what Jesus, and the Apostles would have known it to be. When the Jewish
> people celebrate the Passover, they are not calling the Angel of Death on
> the Egyptian people again, but they are in remebering, placing themselves
> with those who celebrated the feast for the first time, under the yoke of
> Egypt, preparing for their flight into freedom.
>
> In the same way, every Eucharist is not just a "hey that was great, let's
> do it again," but is fundamentally united to the first Eucharist which
> Jesus himself proclaimed "do this in rememberance" of me, just as the
> Passover celebration was done in rmeberance of that same historic event.
>
> Moreover this event is tied to the cross and ressurection in the days that
> follows. On the other hand, just as the Eucharist is intemately tied to
> Jesus' death, so is Baptism. Yet Jesus is not crucified every time someone
> is baptized.

Ahhh.....so you are saying that baptism and eucharist are SYMBOLS,
right!

Just as we Protestants teach!

>
> > 2) While the Roman church teaches transubstantiation, not all Trinitarians
> > practice or believe this. Most non-Catholics believe that the
> > Lord's Supper is memorial in purpose (Lutherans have a middle
> > position on this one).
>

> It is very difficult not to read the eucharistic discourse in John's gospel
> without getting the impression that Jesus is talking literally, not
> symbolically. Paul's epsiles make it also clear as well. Looking back at
> the Passover we see that it was not only important to kill the pascal lamb,
> but that its flesh had to be eaten. (John 6:52-58)
>
> 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying,
> "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

> 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to
> you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man
> and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
> 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
> eternal life, and I will raise him up at the
> last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my
> blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh
> and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
> 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live
> because of the Father, so he who eats me will
> live because of me. 58 This is the bread which
> came down from heaven, not such as the fathers
> ate and died; he who eats this bread will live
> for ever."
>

> Catholics believe that when Jesus said "This is my body" he meant it.
> He didn't mean, "this is a symbol of my body," as many Protestants
> would want, or "this is both my body and a piece of bread, as long
> as the service lasts, but then its just a piece of bread again," as
> the Lutherans would insist with "consubstantiation." Rather it is
> the "flesh of the Son of Man."

Let me ask you this. When you draw a map to your home for someone and
point to the box you've drawn to represent your house and say "OK, this
is my house...take South St three block...etc,etc" do you REALLY
believe that drawing becomes your house? Of course not. Just as Jesus
said "this is my body".

By the way, NOWHERE does the Bible teach (as Catholics do) that if you
fail to receive communion at least once or twice per year, you will go
to hell.

>
> > 3) Acts 2:38 is meaningless without Matthew 28:19. And very early writings
> > (early 2nd century) support the Trinitarian baptismal formula.
>

> Correct. Moreover, Acts does not contain rubrics per se. The actual
> baptisms are not described in as much detail as many would want. Acts
> also uses "Baptized in Jesus' name" to distinguish from the older Baptism
> of John in several cases. The lack of definitive rubrics in Acts has
> lead to all sorts of questions, which under sola scrtura remain unanswered.
>
> Were children baptized in Acts? Clearly whole households were baptized,
> but as for children and infants it does not specifically say. Were any
> baptized by other than immersion? Possibly, but not definitely.
>

The very word "baptize" MEANS to submerse.

> > >and then serving the cookies to the congregation (explaining to the
> > >congregation that the cookies are really god,
> > > the "call no man father" guy says so, so
> > >it *must* be, right?).

> > This is true - the wafer retains the "accidents" of bread, but is stated to
> > be the actual body of Christ. As for calling priests father, I do agree
> > that there are problems with the verse you cite.
>

> <G> The "Reverend" makes a "father" joke. To bad he doesn't realize
> the irony. <G> Well let's look at all of Matthew 23:8-12.
>
> 8 But you are not to be called rabbi,
> for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
> 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have
> one Father, who is in heaven.
> 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master,
> the Christ.
> 11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;
> 12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever
> humbles himself will be exalted.
>
> Thus anyone who calles them selves "worthy of reverence" is
> exaulting himself. Anyone who uses the title of "Doctor" is
> guilty of calling themselves a "teacher." (for that is what
> it means in latin) Even the Apostle Paul is guilty of a
> over strict interpertation of these verses since he refered
> to himself as the "spiritual father" of those he preached to.
>
> Thus "reverend" "doctor" or "father" is not the issue, but
> those who use these titles to "exault" himself is the issue.
> We are all called to be humble. But in exaulting himself,
> Rev Winter winds up only humbled.
>

> > >I wonder how some of these guys can actually convince people that
> > >they can call the God of heaven down, turn Him into a cookie and
> > >then re-break His body week after week.
> >

> > Too bad you don't understand the RCC theology. You have it backwards and
> > make false statements about "re-breaking" and "re-slaughter" that simply
> > aren't true.

Hmmm....according to the Vatholic catechism, Steve hasd it exactly
right....

>
> Unfortunately there are many people out there, who have similiar
> misbelies about the Catholic Church. They assume that the Church
> believes X because they were told so by another non-Catholic.
>
> Enough to say Bishop Sheen was right, "There isn't one
> in a thousand that hate the Catholic Church, but there
> are many who hate what they think is the Catholic Church."

avenger

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

In <334401...@cris.com>, Mike Maturen <mmat...@cris.com> writes:

>Christopher Beattie wrote:
>>
>> In the same way, every Eucharist is not just a "hey that was great, let's
>> do it again," but is fundamentally united to the first Eucharist which
>> Jesus himself proclaimed "do this in rememberance" of me, just as the
>> Passover celebration was done in rmeberance of that same historic event.
>>
>> Moreover this event is tied to the cross and ressurection in the days that
>> follows. On the other hand, just as the Eucharist is intemately tied to
>> Jesus' death, so is Baptism. Yet Jesus is not crucified every time someone
>> is baptized.
>
>
>
>Ahhh.....so you are saying that baptism and eucharist are SYMBOLS,
>right!
>
>Just as we Protestants teach!
>

It's a symbol in the same way that a Chevy S10 pickup is a symbol for
a Chevy S10 pickup. The best symbol for a thing is the thing itself.
The Eucharist is the fulfillment of symbol - it is an efficacious symbol,
a complete symbol, it is Christ Himself, represented as bread to our
senses, but in reality the Living Bread that came down from heaven.

>> Catholics believe that when Jesus said "This is my body" he meant it.
>> He didn't mean, "this is a symbol of my body," as many Protestants
>> would want, or "this is both my body and a piece of bread, as long
>> as the service lasts, but then its just a piece of bread again," as
>> the Lutherans would insist with "consubstantiation." Rather it is
>> the "flesh of the Son of Man."
>
>
>Let me ask you this. When you draw a map to your home for someone and
>point to the box you've drawn to represent your house and say "OK, this
>is my house...take South St three block...etc,etc" do you REALLY
>believe that drawing becomes your house? Of course not. Just as Jesus
>said "this is my body".

Oddly enough, the argument you present here is precisely the same argument
Catholics use to demonstrate why the use of statues are acceptable. But,
more to the point, Christ didn't just draw the map, He provided Himself
as the way. By partaking of His Body, we become part of His body, and
so enter into heaven. Again, if you want Scriptural evidences from the
OT and the NT, check out:

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

It's got 25 pages of Scripture on the Eucharist alone.

>
>By the way, NOWHERE does the Bible teach (as Catholics do) that if you
>fail to receive communion at least once or twice per year, you will go
>to hell.

That's true. Of course, nowhere in Scripture does Scripture teach (as
fundamentalists/evangelicals do) that Scripture alone is the sole authority.
That's the cool thing about being Catholic. Our theology is self-consistent.
We don't say Scripture is the only authority, we recognize that Scripture
sees the Church as the pillar and foundation, of truth, becuase the Church
is One Body with the source of truth, Jesus Christ. Sola Scriptura people
run into all sorts of theological difficulties because they attempt to set up
as a sole authority something which can never be the sole authority, and
which itself witnesses that it is not itself the sole authority.

The teaching on how often one must receive the Eucharist comes from
the authority of the Bride of Christ.

>> > >I wonder how some of these guys can actually convince people that
>> > >they can call the God of heaven down, turn Him into a cookie and
>> > >then re-break His body week after week.
>> >
>> > Too bad you don't understand the RCC theology. You have it backwards and
>> > make false statements about "re-breaking" and "re-slaughter" that simply
>> > aren't true.
>
>
>Hmmm....according to the Vatholic catechism, Steve hasd it exactly
>right....

Quote the Catechism and I'll believe you.

>> --
>> | _______ |Christopher Beattie | 801 Eisenhower Dr|
>> | /__ __\ Peace |Tantalus Inc. | Key West, FL 33040|
>> | / \ and |Development Div. |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
>> | /___\ Good |chr...@Tansoft.com | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
>> | |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp> |

Christopher Beattie

unread,

Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

Steve Adams wrote:
>
> Newsgroups restored. Mr Winter's attempts to deflect accurate criticism
> caught.

Newsgroups restored evern better. alt.fan.steve-winter removed as well as
alt.christnet.hypocrisy.

> stev...@gte.net (Rev. Steve Winter) wrote:
>
> >In remembrance, NOT a literal re-slaughter of God!!! ALL trinity filth are
> >guilty of the above because they are not born again according to
> >Acts 2:38/John 3:5 and are NOT CHRISTIAN and are NOT WORTHY since
> >they have REJECTED the Name of Jesus in baptism.
>
> 1) The Roman church does NOT teach the "re-slaughter" of Christ. Period.
> This is a falsehood, and you know it. What the Roman Church teaches is
> that the sacrifice of the mass is linked timelessly to that moment in
> history when Jesus died on the cross. It is NOT a resacrifice.

I would also like to point out what rememberance means from the perspective
of what Jesus, and the Apostles would have known it to be. When the Jewish
people celebrate the Passover, they are not calling the Angel of Death on
the Egyptian people again, but they are in remebering, placing themselves
with those who celebrated the feast for the first time, under the yoke of
Egypt, preparing for their flight into freedom.

In the same way, every Eucharist is not just a "hey that was great, let's

do it again," but is fundamentally united to the first Eucharist which
Jesus himself proclaimed "do this in rememberance" of me, just as the
Passover celebration was done in rmeberance of that same historic event.

Moreover this event is tied to the cross and ressurection in the days that
follows. On the other hand, just as the Eucharist is intemately tied to
Jesus' death, so is Baptism. Yet Jesus is not crucified every time someone
is baptized.

> 2) While the Roman church teaches transubstantiation, not all Trinitarians

Catholics believe that when Jesus said "This is my body" he meant it.

He didn't mean, "this is a symbol of my body," as many Protestants
would want, or "this is both my body and a piece of bread, as long
as the service lasts, but then its just a piece of bread again," as
the Lutherans would insist with "consubstantiation." Rather it is
the "flesh of the Son of Man."

> 3) Acts 2:38 is meaningless without Matthew 28:19. And very early writings

> (early 2nd century) support the Trinitarian baptismal formula.

Correct. Moreover, Acts does not contain rubrics per se. The actual
baptisms are not described in as much detail as many would want. Acts
also uses "Baptized in Jesus' name" to distinguish from the older Baptism
of John in several cases. The lack of definitive rubrics in Acts has
lead to all sorts of questions, which under sola scrtura remain unanswered.

Were children baptized in Acts? Clearly whole households were baptized,
but as for children and infants it does not specifically say. Were any
baptized by other than immersion? Possibly, but not definitely.

> >and then serving the cookies to the congregation (explaining to the

> >I wonder how some of these guys can actually convince people that

> >they can call the God of heaven down, turn Him into a cookie and
> >then re-break His body week after week.
>
> Too bad you don't understand the RCC theology. You have it backwards and
> make false statements about "re-breaking" and "re-slaughter" that simply
> aren't true.

Unfortunately there are many people out there, who have similiar
misbelies about the Catholic Church. They assume that the Church
believes X because they were told so by another non-Catholic.

Enough to say Bishop Sheen was right, "There isn't one
in a thousand that hate the Catholic Church, but there
are many who hate what they think is the Catholic Church."

Mike Maturen

unread,

Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to Christopher Beattie

Christopher Beattie wrote:
>
> Mike Maturen wrote:
> >
> > Christopher Beattie wrote:
> > >
> satifify the command "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man?"

>
> > By the way, NOWHERE does the Bible teach (as Catholics do) that if you
> > fail to receive communion at least once or twice per year, you will go
> > to hell.
>

> No it doesn't. Well not directly. Paul does tell his followers to look
> to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church
> does make rules to allow the faithful to become holy. So if you thumb
> your nose at the Church, which Paul states is the pillar and foundation
> of truth, then that is somewhat sinfull. On the other hand, if you got
> yourself trapped on a deserted island for a year or two, then you are
> certanly not responsible for not receiving communion.
>
> The sin, is deliberatly disobeying the Church, not the number of times you may
> receive communion or not. The Church encourages frequent reception
> of the sacraments, far more often than once or twice per year. But
> it doesn't require it. Once a year is a pretty good minimum.
>
> --
>

The Bible is the final authority, NOT the church. The Bible is NOT
legalistic. The ONLY requirement to get to heaven is TRUST IN CHRIST.
There is no requirement to take communion, there is no requirement to
give money or light candles.

I am not speaking--necessarily--from a purely Protestant viewpoint. I
spent over 18 years as a Catholic. In fact, I was thinking about
entering the priesthood.

I do not agree with the concept that Catholics are not Christians. They
can be...I am. My two best friends are/were Catholic. They trusted
Christ as Savior...and are now saved (Christian).

I think the problem here is one of definition. Catholics and most
mainstream Protestant may define "Christian" as attending a "christian"
church, believing in God, etc.

Biblical Christians define "Christian" as one who has put their full
faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Not works or
candles or tithes or anything else...but Christ. And that, my friend,
is biblical!

I would love to discuss this with you further...providing we can both
keep cool heads. It does nobody good to get into a spittin' match.

In Christ,

Rev. Mike Maturen
founder, Upon This Rock Ministries

Frik Kraamwinkel

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97

to

As far as I an concerned, there is no other
religion or believe other than christianity.

Anon

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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In article <E81y0y.2y...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John Lauzon) wrote:
>Paul Duca (toms...@tiac.net) wrote:

>Whether your Catholic or not, those who know the teachings of Jesus and
>don't practice them are not likely to go to Heaven.
>

>

>"Dear children!
>
>Today, in a special way, I invite you to take the cross in the hands and
>to meditate on the wounds of Jesus. Ask of Jesus to heal your wounds,
>which you, dear children, during your life sustained because of your sins
>or the sins of your parents. Only in this way, dear children, you will
>understand that the world is in need of healing of faith in God the
>Creator. By Jesus' passion and death on the cross, you will understand
>that only through prayer you, too, can become true apostles of faith;
>when, in simplicity and prayer, you live faith which is a gift.Thank you
>for having responded to my call."
>
>
>*^*^*^*^**^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^**^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
}

Matthew 17-20:

17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have
come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until
heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from
the Torah—not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever
disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called
the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will
be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your
righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P<rushim, you
will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

To follow Yeshua (Jesus) you must become Jewish.

A. LeJeune

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk wrote:
: On 28 Mar 1997 22:22:42 GMT, "Douglas Nicholson"
: <noah...@northlink.com> wrote:

: >Care to quote scripture on your position?
: >Sean sounds like your trying to say that if your a good person you get to
: >go to heaven! Simply not the case my friend.

: Please elaborate.

: > As for the RCC it has a lot of followers but it is not Christian!

: And you have scriptural evidence to support that claim?
:
: >By their teaching you will know who they are.

: Aha!

: >Now Sean if you want a further look at Catholic doctrine take a gander at
: >RCC Catechism and see
: >how it stacks up to the Word of God our Savior Lord Jesus Christ!

: So that Roman Catholics were foolish enough to put their beliefs in
: print. Throughout every protestant denomination (and I should know, I
: unfortunately grew up as one) there is tendency to twist, distort and
: misuse scripture. It's not written down anywhere, but it does happen
: all too frequently. As an example, the protestant 'renewed' churches
: had the doctrine of 'shepherding' during the seventies. In the
: eighties ninteties we've had the weird off-beam doctrines of the
: Vineyard movement.

: Don't be too quick to point the finger, as there'll be four more
: pointing back at you.

: Rev Noel
: (ULC)

That is why we are justified through faith in Jesus, not man made
doctrines.

ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 04:01:40 GMT, sad...@mcs.net (Steve Adams) wrote:

>I agree that Roman Catholics do not generally read the bible enugh...but
>you are the one who is confused here. You don't understand what the Roman
>Catholic Church teaches and mistate things. Why? Because your ideas are
>bankrupt.

Not only are his ideas bankrupt, but he is also very severely deluded.

>Too bad you don't understand the RCC theology. You have it backwards and
>make false statements about "re-breaking" and "re-slaughter" that simply
>aren't true.

Somewhere along the line, Winter has been programmed to hate Roman
Catholics. His distorted contorted views are probably an attempt to
find a reason for this hatred.

Rev Noel
(ULC)

tammy...@aol.com

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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In article <5i1qjf$acb$1...@news.iag.net>, an...@truth.net (Anon) writes:
Matthew 17-20:

<17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have
come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until
heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from
the Torah—not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever
disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called
the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will
be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your
righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P<rushim, you
<will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

>To follow Yeshua (Jesus) you must become Jewish.

I don't know what bible you are reading but mine does not have Torah
whatever in it. It would be easy to be more righteous than the
Pharisees and the teachers of the law, because they were not
all that righteous. They were the ones that stood out in the
temple and prayed so everyone could see how "religious" they
were. The teachers of the "laws" were so caught up in the laws
that they did not listen to Jesus' teachings. So we just have to
follow Jesus and His examples and except Him as our Lord and
Savior to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
"
I am sure the man on the cross went to a Jewish church and
converted just before death, I am sure he practiced all the
Jewish tradistions also. No, wait a minute, "Father remember
me in Heaven", "Surely this day you will be with me in paradise"
yep, Jewish to the bone, not! Anyone can become a Christian
and follow Jesus and go to Heaven. John 3:16 "for God so loved
the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, for WHO SO EVER
believes in Him shall NOT perish but have eternal life".

avenger

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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In <334473...@cris.com>, Mike Maturen <mmat...@cris.com> writes:
>Christopher Beattie wrote:
>>
>> Mike Maturen wrote:
>> >
>> > Christopher Beattie wrote:
>> > >

>> satifify the command "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man?"

>>
>> > By the way, NOWHERE does the Bible teach (as Catholics do) that if you
>> > fail to receive communion at least once or twice per year, you will go
>> > to hell.
>>

>> No it doesn't. Well not directly. Paul does tell his followers to look
>> to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church
>> does make rules to allow the faithful to become holy. So if you thumb
>> your nose at the Church, which Paul states is the pillar and foundation
>> of truth, then that is somewhat sinfull. On the other hand, if you got
>> yourself trapped on a deserted island for a year or two, then you are
>> certanly not responsible for not receiving communion.
>>
>> The sin, is deliberatly disobeying the Church, not the number of times you may
>> receive communion or not. The Church encourages frequent reception
>> of the sacraments, far more often than once or twice per year. But
>> it doesn't require it. Once a year is a pretty good minimum.
>>
>> --
>>
>
>The Bible is the final authority, NOT the church. The Bible is NOT
>legalistic. The ONLY requirement to get to heaven is TRUST IN CHRIST.
>There is no requirement to take communion, there is no requirement to
>give money or light candles.

All you have to do is find the Scripture verse which states that Scripture
is the final authority. Not just an authority (everyone agrees that it is
the word of God, and therefore is authoritative). You must find a Scripture
verse which states the Scripture is the final authority - say, something
along the lines of "Scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth" or
"if he disagrees even with Scripture, then treat him as you would a
tax collector or a Gentile" - you know, something like that.

>
>I am not speaking--necessarily--from a purely Protestant viewpoint. I
>spent over 18 years as a Catholic. In fact, I was thinking about
>entering the priesthood.

Good thing you didn't. You need to spend more time thinking about what it
means to be Catholic.

If you want the Scriptural basis for the Catholic teachings you have rejected,
check out:
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

It's got 500 KB of Scripture verses supporting over three dozen Catholic
teachings. The Eucharist alone runs to 25 printed pages of Scripture verses.

>
>I do not agree with the concept that Catholics are not Christians. They
>can be...I am. My two best friends are/were Catholic. They trusted
>Christ as Savior...and are now saved (Christian).
>
>I think the problem here is one of definition. Catholics and most
>mainstream Protestant may define "Christian" as attending a "christian"
>church, believing in God, etc.
>
>Biblical Christians define "Christian" as one who has put their full
>faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Not works or
>candles or tithes or anything else...but Christ. And that, my friend,
>is biblical!

Really? Square it with Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats. The saved in
that passage didn't even recognize Christ, but they did what they knew God
wanted of them, and so were saved. Again, check out the Web site. I've
got about 10 printed pages of Scripture which insist works are important.

>
>I would love to discuss this with you further...providing we can both
>keep cool heads. It does nobody good to get into a spittin' match.

True enough. That's why I would be very interested in your commentary
on the Web pages I've referred you to. Those pages are Scripture, Scripture,
and more Scripture, and Scripture doesn't agree with what you've said.

All you need do is find me the Scripture verses which tell me that Scripture
is the sole and/or the final authority. That's all. Find that verse or verses
and I'll join your church.

>In Christ,
>
>
>Rev. Mike Maturen
>founder, Upon This Rock Ministries

Christopher Beattie

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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Anon wrote:
>
> 17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have
> come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until
> heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from
> the Torah—not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever
> disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called
> the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will
> be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your
> righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P<rushim, you
> will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
>
> To follow Yeshua (Jesus) you must become Jewish.

No. That was settled in the very early Church.

Acts Chapter 15

1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren,
"Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and
Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles
and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they
passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles,
and they gave great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were
welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that
God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees
rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them,
and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you
know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles
should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore
witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no
distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore
why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which
neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall
be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as
they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people
for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
16 'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has
fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, 17 that the rest of men may
seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, 18 says the Lord,
who has made these things known from of old.' 19 Therefore my judgment is that we
should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to
them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is
strangled and from blood. 21 For from early generations Moses has had in every city
those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church,
to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.
They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders,
to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting.
24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words,
unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good
to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved
Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus
Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the
same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to
us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you
abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is
strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

Christopher Beattie

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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Mike Maturen wrote:
>
> The Bible is the final authority, NOT the church. The Bible is NOT
> legalistic. The ONLY requirement to get to heaven is TRUST IN CHRIST.
> There is no requirement to take communion, there is no requirement to
> give money or light candles.

Let's take this one step at a time. First of all, let us assume that
the Bible is the final authority. Let's look at the Bible, then to
see who is the final authority. 1 Timothy, Chapter 3: "14 I hope to
come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the
household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar
and bulwark of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery
of our religion:" Paul cals the household of God, the church of the
living God, and he calls the church of the living God the pillar and
foundation of truth.

The Bible has many covenants and laws. Some laws are universal and
are for all time. Thou shall not kill, applies especially to the
Christian, and Jesus exapands the commandment not reduces it. Some
laws were only for a time, for example the deuturonimcal covenant of
the abstaining from the eating of certain things and the detailed
observation on what was clean and unclean, was given to the Jewish
people until the comming of the Messiah.

There are a few more requirements than simply Trust in Christ, although
Trust in Christ is a very important one. The greatest commandments are
"You should love the Lord your Heart with your whole heart, and your
whole soul, and you should love your neighbor as yourself."

For communion, the Eucharistic Discourse in John says otherwise,
1 John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you,

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood,
you have no life in you;"

For giving money, tithing was not something started in the in the
law of Moses. Even Abraham tithed to Malkisedec. The law of the
Church to "contribute" to the local church is within the keeping
of the traditions of the Old and New testaments.

As for "lighting candles." No, there is no law requiring anyone
to light a single candle.

> I am not speaking--necessarily--from a purely Protestant viewpoint. I
> spent over 18 years as a Catholic. In fact, I was thinking about
> entering the priesthood.

Well many people can be Catholic without really understading what
their faith is. And while I would not want to speculate on any
case sight unseen, one could also suppose that some people who
do not fully understand their faith might think about entering
the priesthood as well.

> I do not agree with the concept that Catholics are not Christians. They
> can be...I am. My two best friends are/were Catholic. They trusted
> Christ as Savior...and are now saved (Christian).

So you seem to be saying that although you don't explicitly say that
Catholics are not Christians that Catholics must somehow do somethig
else, to be Christian. "and are now saved (Christian)"

> I think the problem here is one of definition. Catholics and most
> mainstream Protestant may define "Christian" as attending a "christian"
> church, believing in God, etc.

You know the old saying about putting words in other people's mouths...
Allow me to quote to you the Catholic definition of Christian.

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible

Christian

A name first given to the followers of our Lord at Antioch (Acts 11:26).
Since the rise of Protestantism the name has been used in so many different
senses as to have become almost meaningless: it may indicate a Catholic or
a Unitarian, or even be applied to an infidel who displays some virtue
which is associated with Christ. It may reasonably be applied to the
members of all the ancient churches, whether in communion with the Holy
See or not, and to those Protestants who profess, explicitly or implicitly,
the Nicene creed in its traditional interpretation. The Church puts no
definite official meaning on the word, as she does on Catholic.

> Biblical Christians define "Christian" as one who has put their full
> faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Not works or
> candles or tithes or anything else...but Christ. And that, my friend,
> is biblical!

Sola Fide biblical? (Time to bring out James I suppose:)

James 2:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has
faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother
or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you
says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving
them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works."
Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will
show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown,
you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not
Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son
Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with
his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture
was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned
to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by
works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
so faith apart from works is dead.

Note that this is the only passage in all of scripture with the
words "faith alone." So much for sola fide.

> I would love to discuss this with you further...providing we can both
> keep cool heads. It does nobody good to get into a spittin' match.

Well I hope I have kept a cool head as well. I can get excited at
times, especially after trying to search through the bible for every
verse I need.

> Rev. Mike Maturen
> founder, Upon This Rock Ministries

Well, if you ever decide you want to come back to the Church, I can
always try to locate a good RCIA program in your area.

Gary M.Avrett

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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I do attend a Catholic Church with my wife and children. I have not heard
this statement "you will go to hell if you don't partake in communion" as
you say, however they do teach "it is a sin not to attend mass"...the
church DOES state for one NOT to receive communion if their are sins are
left untouched( has not asked Christ to forgive) ....true some Catholics in
certain areas of the globe may be mis-guided into some superstitions or
beliefs that are not scriptural...I have seen this in many different
denominations. We are one body in Christ Jesus...albeit sometimes
judgemental, fighting amongst ourselves while the real enemy runs amuck
vertually unscathed, and probably laughing at us poor representatives of
the Son of God who should be spreading his truth & light, but are caught up
in an endless debate on theology as the pharisees were.
My prayer...may the peace of Christ Jesus be with ALL of his Church.....
Gary M. Avrett gav...@airmail.net
Mike Maturen <mmat...@cris.com> wrote in article
<334473...@cris.com>...

> Christopher Beattie wrote:
> >
> > Mike Maturen wrote:
> > >
> > > Christopher Beattie wrote:
> > > >

> > satifify the command "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man?"

> >
> > > By the way, NOWHERE does the Bible teach (as Catholics do) that if
you
> > > fail to receive communion at least once or twice per year, you will
go
> > > to hell.
> >

> > No it doesn't. Well not directly. Paul does tell his followers to
look
> > to the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church
> > does make rules to allow the faithful to become holy. So if you thumb
> > your nose at the Church, which Paul states is the pillar and foundation
> > of truth, then that is somewhat sinfull. On the other hand, if you got
> > yourself trapped on a deserted island for a year or two, then you are
> > certanly not responsible for not receiving communion.
> >
> > The sin, is deliberatly disobeying the Church, not the number of times
you may
> > receive communion or not. The Church encourages frequent reception
> > of the sacraments, far more often than once or twice per year. But
> > it doesn't require it. Once a year is a pretty good minimum.
> >
> > --
> >
>

> The Bible is the final authority, NOT the church. The Bible is NOT
> legalistic. The ONLY requirement to get to heaven is TRUST IN CHRIST.
> There is no requirement to take communion, there is no requirement to
> give money or light candles.
>

> I am not speaking--necessarily--from a purely Protestant viewpoint. I
> spent over 18 years as a Catholic. In fact, I was thinking about
> entering the priesthood.
>

> I do not agree with the concept that Catholics are not Christians. They
> can be...I am. My two best friends are/were Catholic. They trusted
> Christ as Savior...and are now saved (Christian).
>

> I think the problem here is one of definition. Catholics and most
> mainstream Protestant may define "Christian" as attending a "christian"
> church, believing in God, etc.
>

> Biblical Christians define "Christian" as one who has put their full
> faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Not works or
> candles or tithes or anything else...but Christ. And that, my friend,
> is biblical!
>
>

> I would love to discuss this with you further...providing we can both
> keep cool heads. It does nobody good to get into a spittin' match.
>
>

> In Christ,

JONATHAN

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC40D7.46B14420

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Religion and History?. The RCC?.
Faith?. When one kills in the name of the God who said "Thou shalt not
kill".
Faith?. When one persecutes in the name of Him who commandeds us to
"Forgive our enemies".
Faith?. When one propagates darkness in the name of Him who tell us not to
"Hide the light under a bushel". We have a choice, The RCC or any other
confusion, or seek the truth.
Jonathan.
--
Jonathan R Dooling
joh...@icon.co.za

------=_NextPart_000_01BC40D7.46B14420

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Religion and History?. The =
RCC?. Faith?. When one kills in the name of the God who said =
"Thou shalt not kill". Faith?. When one persecutes in the =
name of Him who commandeds us to "Forgive our =
enemies". Faith?. When one propagates darkness in the name of =
Him who tell us not to "Hide the light under a bushel". We =
have a choice, The RCC or any other confusion, or seek the truth. =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;        Jonathan. -- =
 Jonathan R Dooling joh...@icon.co.za 
</body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC40D7.46B14420--

Rev. Steve Winter

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97

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Scott David Smith <sd...@acpub.duke.edu> spake thusly and wrote:

>I am real sorry you have this understanding of Catholics. I am a
>protestant minister. I can tell you Protestants are not the only poeple
>going to heaven. That simply is an incorrect idea. I have come to know

Protestants will not be going to heaven either since they worship the three
headed idol of their "Great Whore" mama, the RCC. Please allow me to
elaborate and explain in this brief post why every trinitarian will
die in their sins and spend eternity in a devils' hell.

Remission of sins is essential for sinful humanity to be
"sin free". The word "salvation" means free from sin.

In Acts 2:38 we can see plainly stated that sins are remitted (washed away) by
Jesus name baptism. Now the trinitarian is not really worshipping the Jesus
of the Bible, so they see no need to be baptised in Jesus name (even though
the Bible clearly commands it). They think that their three gods need three
separate "titles" in baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This is because Jesus is the Great "I AM" of the Bible.
Jesus's name is the ONLY saving name.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So, you see, all trinity preachers really are deceiving people into hell.
We don't just say that to be mean, but rather in the service of truth.

Both of the following statements were spoken by the same person, the same One
God of Heaven!

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily , verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.

Now the false christian will not accept that Jesus is "I AM". They
"don't believe". They are "non-believers".
That is why Jesus said that those who would not accept that He really
was the "I AM" would die in their sins.

1. Those who do not see Jesus as "I AM" see no need to be baptized
in the name of Jesus.
2. Sins are remitted by Jesus name baptism.
3. Those who don't believe in Jesus will refuse Jesus name
baptism and will die with their sins UN-REMITTED.

That is why Jesus said:

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Sins are washed away by Jesus name baptism. That is why the Bible
commands it, so you can "put on Christ".

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.

Trinitarians are deceived by their filthy preachers into refusing
to "put on Christ".

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his
name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism
of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe
on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name
of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I hope this helps....

Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-3606 USR-H16/V.32T

Jim Garlits

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97

to

Douglas Nicholson wrote:

I would fully expect a person with these sentiments to have gotten his
information from Jack Chick. Hahahahahaha.

J Garlits

You must see mdr

unread,

Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97

to JONATHAN

Catholics are Catholics as Mormons are Mormons and as Christians are
Chriastians.
You can argue and argue hours days and years; most wrong believers will
not take the Bible as 100% to be the Word of God. Many so called
christians when asked; Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?
will answer "some of it is".
You then close the book and stop casting pearls before swine. Do not
waste your time.
How could someone be a Christian not knowing his identity to be a child
of God and to have assurance of a eternal life.

Read the Daily Light it is pure;

I never thought to have such a positive response from Christians and non
Christians.
Our most favorite and daily visited page is the DAILY LIGHT followed by
the SUNDAY MESSAGE.
A most interesting page come for a visit, there are many reasons to
bookmark this page.
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mdr

Fr. John W. Morris

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97

to

Mike Maturen <mmat...@cris.com> wrote in article
<334473...@cris.com>...
>
>

> The Bible is the final authority, NOT the church. The Bible is NOT
> legalistic. The ONLY requirement to get to heaven is TRUST IN CHRIST.

Christ is the final authority. The Bible is an expression of His teachings,
but so also is the Holy Tradition of the Church because the Church is the
Body of Christ.

To be saved one must follow Christ. Our Lord said, "Not every one who says
to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the
will of my Father who is in heaven." St. Matthew 7:21.
Our Lord also said, John 6:53 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat

the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;"

We are not saved by belief or theological opinion, but by living a life
committed to Christ.

+ Archpriest John W. Morris

norm lenhart

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97

to

Michael W. Christy wrote:
>
> Rev. Steve Winter wrote:
>
> >
> > Rev. Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-xxxx
>
> Oh...boy...Stevy is here...another wacko christian nut.
>

I know what you mean. Kinda hard to figuer if we should quake in fear of
his "Holey"(sp intentional) wrath, or bust a gut laughing at him ;-)

Alt.fan.steve-winter added
--
Norm Lenhart

Rowland Croucher

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

Scott David Smith wrote:
>
> I am real sorry you have this understanding of Catholics. I am a
> protestant minister. I can tell you Protestants are not the only poeple
> going to heaven. That simply is an incorrect idea. I have come to know

> several Catholics since the beginning of my ministry. Their
> faithfullness to Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit is
> unmistakeable. Yes I too have met Catholics I worry for, but I do the
> same for folks who claim the Prostestant heritage. God can reveal
> himself to the his children in any way he wants to. It is not for us to
> limit God's power. Jesus' love is to powerful for us to make claims to
> deny entire groups the ability to have a personal relationship with God.
> Please do not put the love and power of God in a box and do not dictate
> who God can and con not touch.
>
> Prayerfully speaking I am,
>
> Scott Smith

I couldn't have said it better.

I'm sometimes accused of being anti-Catholic (by sensitive Catholics) which
ain't true, folks. Despite the critical articles about some aspects of
Catholicism on my homepage, I've had four Catholic Spiritual Directors,
and would choose a 'preached retreat' at a Catholic centre anytime for
my annual retreat.

And my favorite author (here's a Baptist speaking... Ready?) is Richard Rohr,
whom I reckon is the English-speaking world's #1 prophet. And guess what,
he's (still) a Catholic Franciscan!

--

Shalom! Rowland Croucher

Director, John Mark Ministries - resources for pastors/leaders.
(Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post)
Home Page (now 300 articles): http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm
CLERGY/LEADERS' LIST: clergy-...@pastornet.net.au
('SUBSCRIBE' on subject-line)

RevMike

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

Dave <d...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5i8rv4$r...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>...
> "D.L. Scott" <dsc...@pgh.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Rev. Steve Winter <stev...@gte.net> wrote in article
> ><333c4d5...@news2.gte.net>...
> >> I guess I find it kind of amazing that, given the historical accounts
> >> of the murderous roots of the RCC, AND the blatant disregard for so
> >> much of the Bible's commandments; that so many people can be so
> >> deceived into a blind loyalty to such a filthy, ungodly cult.
>
> >Here we go again. Another narrow minded and misguided soul who believes
> >that, unless you believe EXACTLY as they do, you are going to hell. When
> >will these people EVER learn that we all have a right to our own faiths
-
> >including our own forms of Christianity.
>
> >I am a Christian but I am not a Catholic. I am also happy to say that I
am
> >not a member of the narrow minded religious right. I suspect that these

> >intolerant people are going to get a HUGE shock when they get to heaven
and
> >see so many of those they hated and denegrated there with them.
>

> >In God's Peace,
> >Deni Scott
>
> We're not all arbitrarily intolerant. I have a great deal of respect
> for the Pope and the RCC. John Paul is aces in my book. :-)
>
> Dave
> http://FundChristianCharities.com/
>
John Paul is aces and eights in my book.

JONATHAN

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC4269.A5777540

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Bible is the word of God. But the spreading of the word of God is
hypocrisy, every one has his own transalation, building a bridge to heaven
is wrong, that is why we are struck in confusion.

Jonathan.
--
Jonathan R Dooling
joh...@icon.co.za

------=_NextPart_000_01BC4269.A5777540

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><font size=3D2 =

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">The Bible is the word of God. But the =
spreading of the word of God is hypocrisy, every one has his own =
transalation, building a bridge to heaven is wrong, that is why we are =
struck in confusion. =

&=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;        Jonathan. -- =
 Jonathan R Dooling joh...@icon.co.za<font =

color=3D"#000000">

</body></html>

------=_NextPart_000_01BC4269.A5777540--

Father Tex

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

I too agree. I know my posts often appear anti-catholic but that is
not so. I am anti-go-through-the-motions-Catholic in the same way I'm
anti-go-through-the-motions-protestant. If you truly love God and
find Catholocism to be your best way to have a relationship with God,
then great. If you truly love God and find protestant worship to
bring you closer to God, then great too. God made us all
different--why do we all have to worship the same way?

TEX

OCEAN DIG

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

" As for the RCC it has a lot of followers but it is not Christian!"

Doug, thanks for your scholarly remarks on the Catholic faith. It amazes
me the something so plainly anti-scripture can be such a huge, worldwide
religion. I will look into the books you've cited as sources for learning
more about this.

Holy water, praying to Mary, purgatory, confession...none of it in the
Bible.
Amazing.
OCEAN DIG.@aol.com
(T Hartman)(SFForever)

Lester

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97

to

: I love the way that you folks have formulated in your mind the above
image
: of Christians. See, if you label us with the negatives, then you get
the
: positives for yourself and, oh what a good person you are!! If you
believe
: Christians to be ignorant, then you don't know many real Christians
(such
: as Dr. Duane Gish). The other attributes are pure hogwash (we've
already
: dealt with the self righteous bit). Can you seriously think that
anyone who
: has the Love of Jesus in their heart and is trying to walk in His
Footsteps
: could possibly be a terrorist? Show me anywhere in scripture where
Jesus
: said to be a terrorist.

There is that thing with the money changers.

avenger

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97

to

Because God ordained it?

Look, you think of worship as praise and prayer. In that sense, you *don't*
all have to worship the same way. There are Catholic contemplatives and
Catholic charismatics and everything in-between. But in terms of REAL
worship, the only way to worship God is through sacrifice. That is what
God ordained. I don't know why He did, but He did. We must be united to
the sacrifice of Calvary in order to worship in spirit and in truth. The only
way to do that is to attend a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Mass
every Sunday, because those are the only places where the sacrifice of
Cavalry is made present (not re-enacted, but made present). Check out

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

for the Scriptural support of the assertion in th

avenger

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97

to

In <33460D...@ns.sympatico.ca>, You must see mdr <m...@ns.sympatico.ca> writes:
>Catholics are Catholics as Mormons are Mormons and as Christians are
>Chriastians.
>You can argue and argue hours days and years; most wrong believers will
>not take the Bible as 100% to be the Word of God. Many so called
>christians when asked; Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?
>will answer "some of it is".
>You then close the book and stop casting pearls before swine. Do not
>waste your time.
>How could someone be a Christian not knowing his identity to be a child
>of God and to have assurance of a eternal life.
>

If you'd like to see the Scriptural supports for Catholic teachings, check out:

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

It is Scripture, Scripture, and more Scripture, with very little else - the
Scriptural supports for over three dozen Catholic teachings and traditions.
Read it and think.

Tony Tharp

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97

to

Scott David Smith wrote:
>
> Steve,

>
> I am real sorry you have this understanding of Catholics. I am a
> protestant minister. I can tell you Protestants are not the only poeple
> going to heaven. That simply is an incorrect idea. I have come to know
> several Catholics since the beginning of my ministry. Their
> faithfullness to Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit is
> unmistakeable. Yes I too have met Catholics I worry for, but I do the
> same for folks who claim the Prostestant heritage. God can reveal
> himself to the his children in any way he wants to. It is not for us to
> limit God's power. Jesus' love is to powerful for us to make claims to
> deny entire groups the ability to have a personal relationship with God.
> Please do not put the love and power of God in a box and do not dictate
> who God can and con not touch.
>
> Prayerfully speaking I am,
>
> Scott Smith
>

I agree with you to the core!!

Tony Tharp

Kevin Clark

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97

to

This article may have already been around for a while, so I am not too
sure if I misunderstood something. But tell me, why does your title
say Why Catholics are Not Christian!? I did not see anything in the
article that addresses this issue.
Also, may I add that your reply Christopher Beattie, was very good.

Roger Cox <rc...@icanect.net> wrote:

>Christopher Beattie wrote:

>> > You can not judge people by their Religion.

>You're not suppose to judge at all. "Who knows the hearts of men, men
>don't even know their own hearts". Only Jesus is able to judge. "Judge
>not and you will not be judged. Condemn not and you will not be
>condemned".

>but a person doesnt have to have a Religion to get to be a Christian .
>God is not Religion he is life, love, joy, hapiness, fun, etc...

avenger

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Apr 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/8/97

to

In <3347fff9...@betanews.compulink.co.uk>, ad...@remove.atlantic.to.compulink.reply.co.uk writes:
>On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:24:45 -0500, Christopher Beattie
><chr...@Tansoft.com> wrote:
>
>>Newsgroups restored evern better. alt.fan.steve-winter removed as well as
>>alt.christnet.hypocrisy.
>>Moreover this event is tied to the cross and ressurection in the days that
>>follows. On the other hand, just as the Eucharist is intemately tied to
>>Jesus' death, so is Baptism. Yet Jesus is not crucified every time someone
>>is baptized.
>
>Exactly.
>
>>It is very difficult not to read the eucharistic discourse in John's gospel
>>without getting the impression that Jesus is talking literally, not
>>symbolically. Paul's epsiles make it also clear as well. Looking back at
>>the Passover we see that it was not only important to kill the pascal lamb,
>>but that its flesh had to be eaten. (John 6:52-58)
>
>It can be read either way. Many believe that the pascal lamb was
>intended to be symbolic, very much in the way you have described in
>the first paragraph.

It might be more accurate to say that many believe that God uses
empty symbols, symbols devoid of any real effects. After all, if
the Eucharist is not really Jesus Christ, if baptism does not really
wash away sin, then both of those actions are empty symbols,
not efficacious symbols. At it's very essence, theology which rejects
the sacraments is a theology which says God requires us to do
useless things.

You might argue that baptism is a sign of obedience, and this is true.
But if the symbol of baptism has no effect on us, than the choosing of
that symbol is completely arbitrary - He might change His mind and
decide that twenty jumping jacks is a better way of showing obedience.

The whole idea behind sacramental theology is that the symbols are
both efficacious (they MEAN something) and non-arbitrary. The sacraments
are bound up in our very existence. Baptism washes away sin because
God requires us to wash away our sin. The Eucharist is the living Bread
who came down from heaven because it has the appearance of bread.
God undertakes the saving actions which are the sacraments. We submit
ourselves to those saving actions. The actions save because of the One
Sacrament, Jesus Christ, Incarnated and Crucified.

>
>>Catholics believe that when Jesus said "This is my body" he meant it.
>>He didn't mean, "this is a symbol of my body," as many Protestants
>>would want, or "this is both my body and a piece of bread, as long
>>as the service lasts, but then its just a piece of bread again," as
>>the Lutherans would insist with "consubstantiation." Rather it is
>>the "flesh of the Son of Man."
>
>The reality is that there is little to substantiate any of these
>positions.

I've got 25 pages of Scripture on my web site which substantiates the
Eucharist, and another 200 beyond that for other teachings of the Church.

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

>
>>Correct. Moreover, Acts does not contain rubrics per se. The actual
>>baptisms are not described in as much detail as many would want. Acts
>>also uses "Baptized in Jesus' name" to distinguish from the older Baptism
>>of John in several cases. The lack of definitive rubrics in Acts has
>>lead to all sorts of questions, which under sola scrtura remain unanswered.
>
>Many questions posed by the scriptures remain unanswered regardless of
>belief in sola scriptura.
>
>Rev Noel
>(ULC)
>

The questions of Scripture only remain unanswered if you deny the witness
of Scripture to a greater authority than Scripture. Scripture witnesses a
greater authority than itself - that authority is the Church, the pillar and
ground of truth, the authority who can cause you to be treated like a Gentile
or a tax collector by those who follow Christ if you ignore Her. The Church
answers the questions that Scripture raises but fails to answer.

Scott T. Mikusko

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Apr 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/8/97

to

will...@wanweb.net wrote:

: > I too agree. I know my posts often appear anti-catholic but that is
: > If you truly love God and find protestant worship to

: > bring you closer to God, then great too. God made us all
: > different--why do we all have to worship the same way?
: >
: > TEX

: No matter how many people God made and how many personalities they have we
: should all strive to worship Jesus and follow His Word completely.

: We need to read His Word before we can follow it. Not have someone else read
: it and tell us what it means. That is often distortion at it's finest.

Then you better take a good look at many evangelicals out there, as they
are just listening to what their ministers are saying to them.

It cuts both ways. People can't be bothered to find the answer themselves,
they want SOMEONE to tell them.

-Scott
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Scott T. Mikusko "I'm a citizen of Legoland
Systems Administrator traveling incommunicado..."
Concentric Network Corporation
"The Internet Guerilla"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

ron harris

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Apr 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/10/97

to

avenger@ wrote:

> We must be united to
> the sacrifice of Calvary in order to worship in spirit and in truth. > The only
> way to do that is to attend a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Mass
> every Sunday, because those are the only places where the sacrifice of
> Cavalry is made present (not re-enacted, but made present).

to put it very candidly, you are decieved...

you have made the perverse teachings of men who dwelt in darkness and
had no understanding into doctrines of God.

the deception has occurred because you have chosen to make as your
foundation the perverse teachings themselves, and not the scriptures.
therefore, any interpretation of scripture you have is tainted by your
errant beliefs, which you hold in higher esteem than the bible itself.

later,
ron

Christopher Beattie

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Apr 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/12/97

to

Lester wrote:
>
> : Show me anywhere in scripture where Jesus

> : said to be a terrorist.
>
> There is that thing with the money changers.

Well I must have missed a post or two, but there is nothing in
the money changers story which relates to terrorism.

Terrorism is acts of violence designed to keep a population in
fear. Hijackings for example, make the population afraid of
using the airplanes, as does bombing.

There is nothing in the money changers story which gives the
slightest indication of terrorism. Yes, Jesus was upset at
the blatent commercialism within the house of God, trying to
rob the visitors who were required to come there of every
coin they had, but it was certanly not an incident of terror.
Increase the temple guards and that "mad gallelian" would
not be able to do that again. (In the possible minds of the
temple priests.) Actually the incident was probably a minor
event in the day to day activity of the city.

Michael Margarit

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Apr 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/13/97

to les...@wr.com.au

Lester wrote:
>
> : I love the way that you folks have formulated in your mind the above
> image
> : of Christians. See, if you label us with the negatives, then you get
> the
> : positives for yourself and, oh what a good person you are!! If you
> believe
> : Christians to be ignorant, then you don't know many real Christians
> (such
> : as Dr. Duane Gish). The other attributes are pure hogwash (we've
> already
> : dealt with the self righteous bit). Can you seriously think that
> anyone who
> : has the Love of Jesus in their heart and is trying to walk in His
> Footsteps

> : could possibly be a terrorist? Show me anywhere in scripture where

> Jesus
> : said to be a terrorist.
>
> There is that thing with the money changers.

What planet are you from? Explain yourself, so others from the
the planet Earth can understand you.

John Lauzon

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Apr 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/14/97

to

avenger@ wrote:

: In <3347F2...@uiuc.edu>, Father Tex <t...@uiuc.edu> writes:
: >I too agree. I know my posts often appear anti-catholic but that is

: >not so. I am anti-go-through-the-motions-Catholic in the same way I'm
: >anti-go-through-the-motions-protestant. If you truly love God and
: >find Catholocism to be your best way to have a relationship with God,
: >then great. If you truly love God and find protestant worship to

: >bring you closer to God, then great too. God made us all
: >different--why do we all have to worship the same way?
: >
: >TEX

: Because God ordained it?

: Look, you think of worship as praise and prayer. In that sense, you *don't*

: all have to worship the same way. There are Catholic contemplatives and

: Catholic charismatics and everything in-between. But in terms of REAL
: worship, the only way to worship God is through sacrifice. That is what

: God ordained. I don't know why He did, but He did. We must be united to

: the sacrifice of Calvary in order to worship in spirit and in truth. The only
: way to do that is to attend a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Mass
: every Sunday, because those are the only places where the sacrifice of

: Cavalry is made present (not re-enacted, but made present). Check out

: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

: for the Scriptural support of the assertion in the previous sentence.

: Steve Kellmeyer

: Network Analyst, Turner SSB
: kell...@uiuc.edu
: ----------------------------------------------------
: "It is a very great poverty that a child must die so you
: may live as you wish." - Mother Theresa

This is what the Blessed Mother, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady "Queen
of Peace" says about the Church...

APRIL 25, 1988: "Dear children, God wants to make you holy.
Therefore, through me He is calling you to complete surrender.
Let the Holy Mass be your life. Understand that the church is
God's palace, the place in which I gather you and want to show
you the way of God. Come and pray! Neither look to others nor
slander them, but rather let your life be a testimony on the way
of holiness. Churches deserve respect and are set apart as holy
because God, Who became Man, dwells in them day and night.
Therefore, little children, believe and pray that the Father
increases your faith, and then ask for whatever you need. I am
with you and I rejoice because of your conversion and I am
protecting you with my motherly mantle. Thank you for having
responded to my call."

========================================================================

If you would like to receive contemporary messages of The Blessed Virgin
Mary, please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list...

God bless
John :)

--
\ [P] / o<<<<<>>>>> "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<>>>>>o \ [P] /
-- [[[R]]] -- I extend to you who is reading this .sig the -- [[[R]]] --
/ [A] \ "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE" / [A] \
/ [Y] \ o<<<<<>>>>>"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<>>>>>o / [Y] \

Richard Szpyt

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Apr 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/14/97

to

Tony Tharp <tha...@nevada.edu> wrote in article
<334914...@nevada.edu>...

Ditto !

We recognize only that with which we are familiar. What we often accuse or
attribute to others is what we ourselves have within us.
Tolerant people speak of tolerance whilst the intolerant can only speak of
what they are familiar with.
When will people realise that their words give away their true thoughts.

--
Richard Szpyt
richar...@ukonline.co.uk
Keep your goal out of reach but not out of sight.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/richard.szpyt/contents.htm

KingN0thing

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

to

you have made the perverse teachings of men who dwelt in darkness and
had no understanding into doctrines of God.

<snip>

you have made the perverse teachings of men who dwelt in darkness and
had no understanding into doctrines of God.

<snip>

So...yer sayin that Catholics are fools who dwell in darkness?
Bwahahah, why i was just about the say the same about you!
I was raised Catholic...i'd say that they were sheep but compared to
some other Christian groups they aren't half bad. They interpret the
bible instead o' takin it as fact...they aren't as strict as you would
think...in fact since my pal Pope JP the Second, the Catholic Church
seems damned near progressive. Now as to the Catholic church dwelling
in darkness? Well thats because when good old Paul the Apostle showed
up in Rome it was illeagal to be a Catholic...in fact they fed you to
lions or burned you alive on posts(lightpost?) Catacombs were the only
way to worship....
Besides i say we all should worship in our own way...I believe in the
Great Spirit, you believe in God and Jesus...All this is fine...Let
it be...Let it be.

Shawn Robert Lee Gilbreath

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

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It is known amongst biblical scholars that the Apostle John said, in his
last days, "love your brethren and that is enough". It is known throughout
history that the Roman Catholic Church was overzealous with greed for power
prior to the Reformation. Jesus said that his body was the temple of God.
Hence, that is the place of worship.

avenger

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

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Correct. Christ is the place of worship. That's what the Eucharist is all about.
Have you been to Mass recently?

You need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in order to have
eternal life - the Catholic relationship is so personal that we eat His Flesh
and drink His Blood.

Tim Haynes

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

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In article <01bc4a2b$48610be0$5c1443a4@shawn>,

Shawn Robert Lee Gilbreath <sgil...@ucla.edu> wrote:
>It is known amongst biblical scholars that the Apostle John said, in his
>last days, "love your brethren and that is enough". It is known throughout
>history that the Roman Catholic Church was overzealous with greed for power
>prior to the Reformation. Jesus said that his body was the temple of God.
>Hence, that is the place of worship.

While it might be true (well, actually, it seems to actually BE true)
that the RCC needed a bit of a change-of-direction prior to the
Reformation, it's probably NOT the case that the Reformation was the right
way to do it. 23,000 Protestant denominations doesn't bespeak of a
whole lot of "unity in the Body of Christ" does it? Even Luther seemed
to regret the schismatic effects of his work...

Tim

--
Tim Haynes | And Adam called his wife's name Eve,
4B CS/IS at University of Waterloo | because she was the mother of all
www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/tshaynes | living.
* Send no unsolicited email * | -- Genesis 3:20 [KJV]

Doug Gilliland

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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In article <E8vxy...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, tsha...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Tim Haynes) wrote:

Clipped out the other newsgroups to conserve bandwidth.

>Someone else said:

>>I also believe
>>He taught us to "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me" I believe the Eucharist
>>to be essential if we are to be saved from a lost eternity but only so
>>that it focuses our minds on our sinful nature and Christs sinless
>>perfect scarifice made for MY sake and yours.

>The word Jesus used was not "remembrance". It was "anamnesis" (well,
>actually, it was the Hebrew "zikkaron". Anamnesis is the Greek
>rough-equivalent). The difference is that "anamnesis" refers to taking
>an event and experiencing it as though you were one of the original
>participants. It is "active remembrance", intimately tying the present to
>the past and the past to the present. It is not just remembering -- it
>is participating. The Eucharist does more than just focus your mind...
>it lets you participate in the original Communion!

This seems to check out on one level. Since the the word is not too widely
used, it's hard to compare it to many places to get a feel for the meaning.
However, the word is also used in the Septuagint on several places; Lev 24:7,
and Num 10:10.

Lev 24:7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it
may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto
the LORD.

Num 10:10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days,
and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets
over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace
offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I
am the LORD your God.

In both of these usages there is a continuing sacrifice, but that's not what
is being memorialized. The later events were to remind the people of the first
event (the deliverance from Egypt if I follow the passages correctly). There
was a continuing sacrifice as they were also looking forward to the future
sacrifice of the Messiah, but the memorial aspect seems to be the deliverance.

There seems to be no easy answer in the Greek (in my limited understanding).
The Jews did not re-enter Egypt and re-leave each year and the memorial aspect
reminded them of what God had already done for them in releasing them the
first time. In some way, the future Jews would be participating in the
deliverance from Egypt which required the death of the first born son.
However, this could easily be said to ONLY be a remembrance and not a
re-visiting of the event itself.

In what manner does this mystical thing happen? Does the soul of the person
travel back in time to the cross? Is there some fantasic escape from time (by
which man is normally held)? Is this some mystical secretive procedure that is
not detailed in the scriptures?

In other words, how does the RC eucharist involve "taking an event and
experiencing it as though you were one of the original participants"? If it's
some mystical participation, then why couldn't the Protestant punt to the same
mystery as an answer? We remember it and we participate in it. We can't
explain how we participate in it, but we do.

It's this part of the claim that bothers me the most "It is not just
remembering -- it is participating. The Eucharist does more than just focus
your mind... it lets you participate in the original Communion!". In what
sense is this true?

Doug Gilliland
Read the Calvary Chapel FUAQ at : http://idt.net/~dougg/cc.htm
1 Cor 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Doug Gilliland

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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In article <01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>, "carson lauffer" <car...@essex1.com> wrote:
>Bless you avenger and all the rest. I am a protestant minister.

After reading the rest, I realize that you have stop protesting and gone back
to Rome.

> I believe
>what the Bible teaches and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about the
>Holy Eucharist.

I believe that they stand in opposition in many ways.

> Jesus said, "This is my body...this is my blood." He did
>not say "this represents my body...my blood."

Let's go that route. I believe that Jesus is the door. Jesus did not say that
he represented a door. Do we worship a door as an image or icon? We should.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto
you, I am the door of the sheep.

Not only that but he is the door to a sheepfold.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be
saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Does this Jesus have hindges and a knob?

> There is a world of
>difference between remembering a story and living in the presence of
>Christ.

There is a world of difference between thinking you are living in the presence
of Christ and really remembering a historical event.

> Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some
>others brings us into the presence of Christ. Our Western mindset has put
>far too much emphasis upon head knowledge and has almost eliminated any
>sense of mystery.

The Roman Catholic church put far too much emphasis upon mysteries and has
almost eliminated any head knowledge. (I love these blanket meaningless
statements).

> Are some of the things protestants do (or refuse to do)
>to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in our country. I hope not. But I
>suspect that we must share some of the blame.

Atheists are not avoiding the church because we put too much emphasis on head
knowledge. They are avoiding it because we spend too much time on intangible
mysteries that are really just logical contradictions in disguise.

>Thank God that we can partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every week
>and more often when opportunity arises. There are very few serious matters
>that separate Christians. I suppose one could say that there really are
>none. One of these days we are all going to have to quit protesting and
>get on with winning the world. Carson car...@essex1.com

RevMike

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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carson lauffer <car...@essex1.com> wrote in article
<01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>...
>
> Bless you avenger and all the rest. I am a protestant minister. I

believe
> what the Bible teaches and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about
the

> Holy Eucharist. Jesus said, "This is my body...this is my blood." He
did
> not say "this represents my body...my blood." There is a world of

> difference between remembering a story and living in the presence of

> Christ. Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and

some
> others brings us into the presence of Christ. Our Western mindset has
put
> far too much emphasis upon head knowledge and has almost eliminated any

> sense of mystery. Are some of the things protestants do (or refuse to

do)
> to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in our country. I hope not. But
I
> suspect that we must share some of the blame.

You know, this sounds very pre-Vatican II. Only the RCC has the true
religion and anyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell. It's hard to hide
your true feelings toward those of us that came out of the RCC, isn't it?
Only by taking the Tammuz wafer are we brought into the presence of Christ.
I don't think so. You should study the history of ancient religions and see
where the doctrine of "transubstantiation" really came from.

> Thank God that we can partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every week
> and more often when opportunity arises. There are very few serious
matters
> that separate Christians. I suppose one could say that there really are
> none. One of these days we are all going to have to quit protesting and
> get on with winning the world. Carson car...@essex1.com
>

I agree that one day soon there will be a single church, but it will WIN
nothing. Those who will be a part of it will have LOST everything, most
especially their own souls.

--
Rev. Mike and Virgie Bugal
Heartland Chapel Ministries
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5349
A.I.I.M.
http://www.seanet.com/~revmikeb/

MarcMySimp

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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>> eternal life - the Catholic relationship is so personal that we eat
>>His Flesh and drink His Blood.
>

> Sort of like cannibals.
>
>Like Hannibal the cannibal!

Interesting that you elect to group yourselves with the early Roman
persecutors of the Church. Christians martyred by the Romans were charged
with either atheism (refusing to recognize caesar as god) or cannibalism
(participating in the eucharistic celebration) or both. When your
arguments lead you into such company as Nero, perhaps it is time to
rethink your position.

Marc Simpson

avenger

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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In <01bc4da1$ae6bb920$19810ccf@gypsy95>, "RevMike" <gyp...@seanet.com> writes:
>carson lauffer <car...@essex1.com> wrote in article
><01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>...
>>
>> Bless you avenger and all the rest. I am a protestant minister. I
>believe
>> what the Bible teaches and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about
>the
>> Holy Eucharist. Jesus said, "This is my body...this is my blood." He
>did
>> not say "this represents my body...my blood." There is a world of
>> difference between remembering a story and living in the presence of
>> Christ. Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and
>some
>> others brings us into the presence of Christ. Our Western mindset has
>put
>> far too much emphasis upon head knowledge and has almost eliminated any
>> sense of mystery. Are some of the things protestants do (or refuse to
>do)
>> to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in our country. I hope not. But
>I
>> suspect that we must share some of the blame.
>
>You know, this sounds very pre-Vatican II. Only the RCC has the true
>religion and anyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell. It's hard to hide
>your true feelings toward those of us that came out of the RCC, isn't it?

Reverend, what you say is extremely mis-leading. While the RCC *does*
teach that there is no salvation outside the Church, she is very careful
about what this means. For instance, anyone who is baptized with a
Tri-Une baptism is baptized Catholic; whether the baptizer or the baptizee
recognize that fact is not material. All baptized Christians are "in the Church"
even if they refuse to recognize the authority of the Church (that's one of
the reasons that the RCC never re-baptizes. At most, it will conditionally
baptize, if the person is uncertain of whether or not they were ever baptized
with the Tri-Une formula).

Furthermore, she recognizes that Scripture says all things are created through
Jesus Christ, and that we can come to know of God's existence simply by
observing the created world (i.e., observing the fruits of Christ's bounty), so
people who follow the laws of God written in their heart because of their
innate knowledge of the good, can be saved through Jesus Christ even if
they don't happen to know His specific name. They *would* have accepted
baptism if there would have been a way for them to understand it's
necessity, they accepted everything of God which they knew, and that is
sufficient to be part of the Church through faith. Even those who specifically
reject Catholic teaching, assuming that they do it out of real ignorance and
truly desire to follow God insofar as their own limited and distorted
understanding of God allows, may attain salvation. They may have been badly
taught, badly influenced, and may have had no real way to apprehend or correct
the misinformation they were given. They made the best, most honest and
God-directed choices they could with the best information they had,
and that is all God asks.

>Only by taking the Tammuz wafer are we brought into the presence of Christ.
>I don't think so. You should study the history of ancient religions and see
>where the doctrine of "transubstantiation" really came from.

It is not the case that partaking of the Eucharist is the only way to be
brought into the presence of Christ. It is simply the best way.

>
>--
>Rev. Mike and Virgie Bugal
>Heartland Chapel Ministries
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5349
>A.I.I.M.
>http://www.seanet.com/~revmikeb/

Try

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

Timothy Consodine

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

to RevMike

RevMike wrote:

> You know, this sounds very pre-Vatican II. Only the RCC has the true
> religion and anyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell. It's hard to hide
> your true feelings toward those of us that came out of the RCC, isn't it?

> Only by taking the Tammuz wafer are we brought into the presence of Christ.
> I don't think so. You should study the history of ancient religions and see
> where the doctrine of "transubstantiation" really came from.

It really came from Christ Himself. Where did your teaching come from?

When Jesus spoke symbolically, like the "Leaven of the Pharisees" He
always explicated His teaching by explaining what he meant:

Matt 16:6 Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the
Pharisees and Sadducees." 7 And they discussed it among themselves,
saying, "We brought no bread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "O men
of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves the fact that you
have no bread? 9 Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five
loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10 Or
the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets you
gathered? 11 How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak
about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12
Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven
of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Why doesn’t Jesus explicate His teaching like he did with the Leaven of
the Pharisees if he was speaking symbolically?

Jesus Christ , c. A.D. 33, said:
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in
you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I
will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and
my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood
abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live
because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58
This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers
ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

John 6:60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a
hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself
that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at
this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he
was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no
avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But
there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the
first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would
betray him.

John 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to
me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66 After this many of his
disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to
the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68 Simon Peter answered him,
"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and
we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of
God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one
of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for
he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.

Matt 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and
broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my
body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to
them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the
covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it
and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do
this in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after supper,
saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my
blood. 21 But behold the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the
table. 22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to
that man by whom he is betrayed!" 23 And they began to question one
another, which of them it was that would do this.

St. Paul the Apostle, A.D. 56:
1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you,
that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and
when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which
is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the
cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do
this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often
as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death
until he comes. 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup
of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body
and blood of the Lord.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, A.D. 110:
"those who hold heterodox opinions ... abstain from the Eucharist and
from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh
of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which
the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (6:2; 7:1).

St. Justin Martyr, A.D. 150:
"Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since
Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had
both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught,
the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic
prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh
is nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus"
(First Apology 66:1-20).

Origen: A.D. 244
"I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are
accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when
you have received the body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every
care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated
gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so
believe, if any of it be lost through negligence" (Homilies on Exodus
13:3).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem: 4th century:
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they
are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of
Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make
you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by
faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and
blood of Christ" (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4, 22:9).

Theodore of Mopsuestia, 5th Century:
"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my
body,' but, 'This is my body.' In the same way, when he gave the cup of
his blood he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my blood', but, 'This
is my blood,' for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements]
after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not
according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and
blood of our Lord" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).

Tim Haynes

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Apr 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/21/97

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In article <01bc4da1$ae6bb920$19810ccf@gypsy95>,

RevMike <gyp...@seanet.com> wrote:
>carson lauffer <car...@essex1.com> wrote in article
><01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>...
>>
>> Bless you avenger and all the rest. I am a protestant minister. I believe
>> what the Bible teaches and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about the
>> Holy Eucharist. Jesus said, "This is my body...this is my blood." He did
>> not say "this represents my body...my blood." There is a world of
>> difference between remembering a story and living in the presence of
>> Christ. Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some
>> others brings us into the presence of Christ. Our Western mindset has put
>> far too much emphasis upon head knowledge and has almost eliminated any
>> sense of mystery. Are some of the things protestants do (or refuse to do)
>> to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in our country. I hope not. But I
>> suspect that we must share some of the blame.
>

>You know, this sounds very pre-Vatican II. Only the RCC has the true
>religion and anyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell.

Perhaps you should try to stay current? This is not the RCC position.

>It's hard to hide
>your true feelings toward those of us that came out of the RCC, isn't it?

I don't think our brother here is harbouring any ill will towards those
who have left the RCC. He is making a statement about Western mindsets.

>Only by taking the Tammuz wafer are we brought into the presence of Christ.
>I don't think so.

It's not the only way, but it's the way espoused by Jesus, is it not?
I'm not much of a gambler -- if I know a certain approach is going to
work, I generally take it. Especially in matters of such import.

>You should study the history of ancient religions and see
>where the doctrine of "transubstantiation" really came from.

Hmmm... well, we have Justin Martyr (100-165AD) who was a pretty
influential guy in the primitive church, stating the following:

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in
like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the
Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise we
have been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His
word, and from which our blood and flesh by *transmutation* [emphasis
mine] are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

Our flesh and blood are nourished by the transmutation of the Eucharist
elements, in other words. (For a bit of fun context, Justin wrote this
to try to explain the Catholic practises to the Roman authorities
so that certain rumours about eating children's flesh would be
squelched. Most early Christians were incredibly secretive about their
gatherings, and this is a rare writing that describes their liturgy
reasonably fully.)

So, it would appear that transubstantiation (or, transmutation) was
taught quite early in the church's history. Actually, it's pretty clear
from Jesus that we are to literally partake of His flesh and blood. (If it
was all symbolic, why didn't He call after those disciples who left Him and
his "hard teaching", reassuring them that His description of the Eucharist
transformation was just symbolic?)

>> Thank God that we can partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every week
>> and more often when opportunity arises. There are very few serious matters
>> that separate Christians. I suppose one could say that there really are
>> none. One of these days we are all going to have to quit protesting and
>> get on with winning the world. Carson car...@essex1.com
>
>I agree that one day soon there will be a single church, but it will WIN
>nothing. Those who will be a part of it will have LOST everything, most
>especially their own souls.

Quite a bit of speculation there. Care to back it up with some sort of
analytical thinking?

>Rev. Mike and Virgie Bugal

May God open your mind with wisdom and discernment

Tim
--
Tim Haynes | I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for
4B CS/IS at University of Waterloo | the Lord sustained me.
www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/tshaynes | -- Psalms 3:5 [KJV]

Douglas Nicholson

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Apr 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/22/97

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Doug Gilliland <do...@idt.net> wrote in article
<5jdah5$2...@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>...

> In article <01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>, "carson
lauffer" <car...@essex1.com> wrote:

> >Bless you avenger and all the rest. I am a protestant minister.
>

DG> After reading the rest, I realize that you have stop protesting and
gone back
DG> to Rome.

>
> > I believe
> >what the Bible teaches and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about
the
> >Holy Eucharist.
>

DG> I believe that they stand in opposition in many ways.

>
> > Jesus said, "This is my body...this is my blood." He did
> >not say "this represents my body...my blood."
>

DG> Let's go that route. I believe that Jesus is the door. Jesus did not
say that
DG> he represented a door. Do we worship a door as an image or icon? We

should.
>
> John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say
unto
> you, I am the door of the sheep.
>

DG> Not only that but he is the door to a sheepfold.

>
> John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be
> saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
>

DG> Does this Jesus have hindges and a knob?

Just a side note about doors and hinges!

The highest ranking official next to the Pope(pontifex maximus in the pagan
Catholic religion
are a group called the cardinals! The original cardinals were a group of
leading pagan priests in the ancient pagan religion of Rome, long before
the Christian era. In ancient times the cardinals were the chief clergy of
Rome. The Latin word "cardo" means "hinge" and thus referred to those who
were the pivotal member of the clergy. But why were they linked with the
word hinge? They were the priest of the pagan god "Janus", the pagan god
of doors and hinges! Janus was the god of beggings thus we have January the
begging month of our "Roman Calendar." As god of the doors, he was their
protector or caretaker. Even today the keeper of doors is called a
"janitor" a word from the name Janus!
Janus was known as the "opener and shutter" Because he was worshipped
in Asia minor we can under stand the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in His
address to the church of Philadelphia from which we read in Revelation 3:7
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith
he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that
openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know
thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut
it:

The pagan god Janus was a counterfeit! Just like the pagan Catholic Church
has been a counterfeit all along!

The garments worn by the Cardinal of the Catholic church are red. The Bible
mentions certain princes of Babylon who dressed in red garments:

Ezekiel 23:14
14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed
upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion, 15
Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their
heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians
of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

From ancient of times the color red or scarlet has been associated with
sin. In Isaiah we read from Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins
be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson, they shall be as wool.

The color red is sometimes associated with prostitution as in the
expression
"red light district"

The priests of the pagan "hinge" religion were known as the "flamens." The
word flare meaning one who blows or kindles the sacred fire. They were the
keepers of the pagan holy flame which they fanned with the mystic fan of
Bacchus! They were the servants of pontifex maximus, a title of the Pope
today! The flamens were divided into three distinct groups and so are the
cardinals. Cardinal bishops, cardinal priests and cardinal deacons!

More insight about the pagan Catholics religion

yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ
Douglas Nicholson noah...@northlink.com

>
> > There is a world of
> >difference between remembering a story and living in the presence of
> >Christ.
>

> There is a world of difference between thinking you are living in the
presence

> of Christ and really remembering a historical event.
>

> > Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some
> >others brings us into the presence of Christ. Our Western mindset has
put
> >far too much emphasis upon head knowledge and has almost eliminated any
> >sense of mystery.
>

> The Roman Catholic church put far too much emphasis upon mysteries and
has

> almost eliminated any head knowledge. (I love these blanket meaningless
> statements).
>

> > Are some of the things protestants do (or refuse to do)
> >to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in our country. I hope not.
But I
> >suspect that we must share some of the blame.
>

> Atheists are not avoiding the church because we put too much emphasis on
head
> knowledge. They are avoiding it because we spend too much time on
intangible
> mysteries that are really just logical contradictions in disguise.
>

> >Thank God that we can partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every week
> >and more often when opportunity arises. There are very few serious
matters
> >that separate Christians. I suppose one could say that there really are
> >none. One of these days we are all going to have to quit protesting and
> >get on with winning the world. Carson car...@essex1.com
> >
>

> Doug Gilliland
> Read the Calvary Chapel FUAQ at : http://idt.net/~dougg/cc.htm
> 1 Cor 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found
faithful.
>

------=_NextPart_000_01BC4E7B.752F2860
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Doug Gilliland <do...@idt.net> wrote =
in article <5jdah5$2...@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>... > In article <01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com<fo=
nt color=3D"#000000">>, "carson lauffer" <car...@essex1.com> =
wrote: > >Bless you avenger and all the rest.  I am a =
protestant minister.   > DG> After reading the rest, I =
realize that you have stop protesting and gone back DG> to =
Rome. > > > I believe > >what the Bible teaches =
and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about the > >Holy =
Eucharist.   > DG> I believe that they stand in =
opposition in many ways. > > > Jesus said, "This is =
my body...this is my blood."  He did > >not say =
"this represents my body...my blood."   > =
 DG> Let's go that route. I believe that Jesus is the door. Jesus =
did not say that DG> he represented a door. Do we worship a door =
as an image or icon? We should. > > =
        John 10:7  Then =
said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto > =
        you, I am the door of =
the sheep. > DG> Not only that but he is the door to a =
sheepfold. > > =
        John 10:9  I am the =
door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be > =
        saved, and shall go in =
and out, and find pasture. > DG> Does this Jesus have =
hindges and a knob? Just a side note about doors and =
hinges! The highest ranking official next to the Pope(pontifex =
maximus in the pagan Catholic religion are a group called the =
cardinals! The original cardinals were a group  of leading pagan =
priests in the ancient pagan religion of Rome, long before the Christian =
era. In ancient times the cardinals were the chief clergy of Rome. The =
Latin word "cardo"  means "hinge" and thus =
referred to those who were the pivotal member of the clergy. But why =
were they linked with the word hinge?  They were the priest of the =
pagan god "Janus", the pagan god of doors and hinges! Janus =
was the god of beggings thus we have January the begging month of our =
"Roman Calendar."  As god of the doors, he was their =
protector or caretaker. Even today the keeper of doors is called a =
"janitor" a word from the name Janus! =
   Janus was known as the "opener and shutter" =
Because he was worshipped in Asia minor we can under stand the words of =
our Lord Jesus Christ in His address to the church of Philadelphia from =
which we read in Revelation 3:7 	7 And to the angel =
of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, =
he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no =
man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, =
and no man can shut it: The pagan =
god Janus was a counterfeit! Just like the pagan Catholic Church has =
been a counterfeit all along! The garments worn by the Cardinal =
of the Catholic church are red. The Bible mentions certain princes of =
Babylon who dressed in red garments: Ezekiel 23:14 14 And that  she =
increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, =
the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion, 15 =
Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed =
attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the =
manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity: =
 From ancient of times the color red or scarlet has been =
associated with sin. In Isaiah we read  from Isaiah 1:18 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though =
your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be =
red like crimson, they shall be as wool. The color red is =
sometimes associated with prostitution as in the expression "red =
light district" The priests of the pagan "hinge" =
religion were known as the "flamens." The word flare meaning =
one who blows or kindles the sacred fire. They were the keepers of the =
pagan holy flame which they fanned with the mystic fan of Bacchus! They =
were the servants of pontifex maximus, a title of the Pope today! The =
flamens were divided  into three distinct groups and so are the =
cardinals. Cardinal bishops, cardinal priests and cardinal =
deacons! More insight about the pagan Catholics =
religion yours in our Savior Lord Jesus Christ Douglas =
Nicholson noah...@northlink.com > > > There is a =
world of > >difference between remembering a story and living =
in the presence of > >Christ.   > > There is =
a world of difference between thinking you are living in the presence =
 > of Christ and really remembering a historical event. > =
 > > Only the Eucharist as taught by the Roman Catholic Church =
and some > >others brings us into the presence of Christ. =
 Our Western mindset has put > >far too much emphasis upon =
head knowledge and has almost eliminated any > >sense of =
mystery.   > > The Roman Catholic church put far too =
much emphasis upon mysteries and has > almost eliminated any head =
knowledge. (I love these blanket meaningless > =
statements). > > > Are some of the things protestants do =
(or refuse to do) > >to blame for the rising tide of Atheism in =
our country.  I hope not.  But I > >suspect that we =
must share some of the blame.   > > Atheists are not =
avoiding the church because we put too much emphasis on head > =
knowledge. They are avoiding it because we spend too much time on =
intangible > mysteries that are really just logical =
contradictions in disguise. > > >Thank God that we can =
partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every week > >and more =
often when opportunity arises.  There are very few serious =
matters > >that separate Christians.  I suppose one could =
say that there really are > >none.  One of these days we =
are all going to have to quit protesting and > >get on with =
winning the world.  Carson car...@essex1.com > > > > Doug Gilliland > =
Read the Calvary Chapel FUAQ at : http://idt.net/~dougg/cc.htm > 1 Cor 4:2  Moreover it is required in =
stewards, that a man be found faithful. > 
</f=
ont></font=
></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC4E7B.752F2860--

MarcMySimp

unread,

Apr 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/22/97

to

>> The Eastern Orthodox and the RCC have true Apostolic Succession.
>> The Lutherans clearly do not, as Luther is the source of their
>>priesthood, and he was never in the line of apostolic succession, having
been a >>monk (which is not an apostolic position) prior to his apostasy.
Anglicans
>>also are not in the line of Apostolic succession, although I must admit
that I >>don't know the rationale behind this. No other denomination has a
claim
>>towards apostolic succession which is even as strong as Luther's, and
>>Luther
>> has none.

>>
>> Steve Kellmeyer
>> Network Analyst, Turner SSB
>> kell...@uiuc.edu
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> "It is a very great poverty that a child must die so you
>> may live as you wish." - Mother Theresa
>>

>>Steve:

>The some Lutherans above are exactly in the same position as the
Anglicans.
> When Henry VIII left the Roman Church in a huff over the small matter of
>an anullment that the Bishop of Rome would not grant for political
reasons,
>bishops and archbishops went with him. At the time of the Reformation in
>Sweden the secular government *and* the bishops including the archbishop
>came over to the Evangelical (Lutheran) side.

>BTW before you get too deep with accusing Martin Luther of apostasy you
>might want to read some of the more recent statements about him from
Roman
>historians and theologians. You also might want to read Luther's Small
and
>Large Catechisms. You also might want to read the Augsburg Confession.
>The AC was written by Philipp Melanchthon with considerable input from
>Luther. The AC along with the Small and Large Catechisms are considered
to
>be the defining documents of the Lutheran Church, second only to
Scripture.
>Luther was not at Augsburg in May-June 1530 because it was not safe.
>Charles V would have fricasseed him if he had had the chance.
>
>Bob

A good friend of mine, who is an Episcopalian Priest, defends the
apostolic succession of the Anglican church thusly: "Nothing changed in
the Anglican Church save the sign on the door. Those who had been
ordained as bishops and priests, remained bishops and priests, there
exists an unbroken laying on of hands."

Fine. This, like some of the arguments above, however, begs the
question. Is there not more to apostolic succession than the above
legalistic interpretation. The Arians, who are definately heritics, and
were declared to be so by the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, shared in the
same ordination as the rest of the clergy of their time. Does this make
them authoritative heirs to the apostles? Most certainly not!

In order for there to be true apostolic succession, there must be,
conconmitant with the ordination and laying on of hands, a fidelity to
those things which the apostles taught and have been believed by all
christains in all places at all times.

Is this too difficult an obstacle for any sect or denomination to
overcome? How can we know what "all christians in all places and at all
times have believed?" These things are, of course, matters of historical
record. Do we begin searching for apostolic succession or the christian
Tradition in Geneva 500 years ago? Or do we look to Augsburg in 1530?

Christianity is 2000 years old. If we know this, why do we look only 500
years back to discover its roots? Was all of Chistendom corrupt before
the rationalist of the reformation came into being? To some, their
presuppositons regarding history, skewed as they are by the enlightment,
may well think so. The truth, however, is to be found again in the
historic record. By definition, it is only through a study of patristics
that we can see what the early church taught. Once this is undertaken
then perhaps we will have something important to say about apostolic
succession.

To show, not necesarily bias, but more where my conclusions on these
issues have lead me; I would recomend that people read "The History of the
Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware, published by Penguin.

Marc Simpson

avenger

unread,

Apr 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/22/97

to

In <5jhrep$n...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ir...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark C. Craig) writes:

>
>
>In a previous article, gyp...@seanet.com (RevMike) says:
>
>>carson lauffer <car...@essex1.com> wrote in article
>><01bc4cfd$4fd49520$e47b...@default.essex1.com>...
>>>
>

>Satan is the "author-of-confusion," and loves to divide the Church.
>We are justified through faith in Jesus Christ: not through man-made
>doctrines.

Well, if that is true, then certainly you can find me one verse in Scripture
which says that we are "saved by faith alone".

In fact, the phrase "faith alone" appears only once in Scripture - in James,
when it states that "we are NOT saved by faith alone". The idea that faith
alone saves is a man-made doctrine.

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~kellmeye/welcome.html

has the Scripture verses which prove it.

Carson Lauffer

unread,

Apr 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/23/97

to

"Rev?" Mike, You should not attempt to take me on without at least some
reference to Christ and His teachings. It brings our Lord great sadness
when people argue from their own oft' repeated prejudices rather from the
Word of God. "There is no redemption without the shedding of blood." Why
do so many of my fellow Protestants continue to insist upon arguing from
the Reformation almost exclusively. While the Reformers brought about many
needed corrections they also brought into the church many new errors. One
of these errors is the denial of the words of Christ Himself about the
Eucharist. Mike, please, do not insult the intelligence and devotion of
the Bible believing believers who take Christ's words seriously. Your
"head only" religion does not cut it. The Eucharist isn't just an
ordinance offering fond memories of days gone by. The Eucharist is a
participation with Christ in the divine drama of life. Carson
car...@essex1.com

> You know, this sounds very pre-Vatican II. Only the RCC has the true
> religion and anyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell.

I have never been a member of the Roman Catholic Church. When the Lord
returns all true believers will be catholic. No, that is not exactly
correct. All true believers are catholic now. That you lacked a sense of
mystery and an appreciation of the supernatural does not therefore, make
the Eucharist of none effect.

It's hard to hide
> your true feelings toward those of us that came out of the RCC, isn't it?

> Only by taking the Tammuz wafer are we brought into the presence of
Christ.

There may be some who argue that the only way to be brought into the
presence of Christ is through the Eucharist. I am not one of them.
However, all presence is related to our relation to the Holy Eucharist. The
day by day relation of the believer to the Holy Meal is the same as the day
by day relation to Holy Baptism. When John and James/ or their mother in
the alternate reading, ask Christ if they may sit at his right hand in the
coming kingdom, He responds, "Are you able to baptized with the same
baptism that I face?" That baptism was of death, just as all baptism is of
death so that we may rise again with Christ. The Holy meal, the Body and
Blood of Christ, is our day by day nourishment. If the Holy Eucharist is
of tertiary importance, as the modern anabaptists teach, then why did they
receive it daily? Read Acts 2:42-27 for the pattern of daily worship in
the early church. Do you contend that the Scripture has no authority for
the modern church? If so, what is our authority for the Christian life?
Your opinion? The Reformation? Let's admit that we have all drifted far
from the purity of the faith. The way back though is not to turn our backs
upon Scripture and Holy Church but to turn and embrace them and struggle
with the differences we have.

> I don't think so. You should study the history of ancient religions and

see
> where the doctrine of "transubstantiation" really came from.

I know that the Christian's opponents in the early church accused them of
cannabalism. Was this because they ate bread and grape juice? Why wasn't
everyone, pagan, Christian, and Jew, accused of cannabalism then? It might
be interesting to see what you have come up with about the rise of
transubstantiation but even if some pagan myths have found their way into
common practice and superstition does not negate the clear teachings of
Christ that the bread and wine consecrated is the Body and Blood of Christ.

>
> > Thank God that we can partake of the Body and Blood of Christ every
week
> > and more often when opportunity arises. There are very few serious
> matters
> > that separate Christians. I suppose one could say that there really
are
> > none. One of these days we are all going to have to quit protesting
and
> > get on with winning the world. Carson car...@essex1.com
> >

> I agree that one day soon there will be a single church, but it will WIN
> nothing. Those who will be a part of it will have LOST everything, most
> especially their own souls.

Rather than vitriolic nonsense please substantiate this. Don't just
blather the foolishness of mankind. Back it up with Scripture.
>
>
>
> --

> Rev. Mike and Virgie Bugal