Oakland Promise Keepers Tickets Available
Tim Snellings
I have 15 tickets available for purchase at $60 each to the Promise
Keepers event this Friday and Saturday (28th and 29th) in Oakland. If
you are interested in any or all of these, please send me an e-mail ASAP
or call me at (916) 477-5974.
Thanks, Tim
Deana M. Holmes
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Tim Snellings <net...@oro.net> wrote:
Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
expensive? If my understanding is correct, they cost more than to go
to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
cost more than the face value of Rolling Stones tickets from a couple
of years ago.
Does PK give scholarships to men who can't afford $60 bucks a head?
Do they have free tickets? Where does all the money go? Is there any
accountability here?
A female who asks too many questions <grin>,
Deana Holmes
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Deana M. Holmes
alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
mir...@xmission.com
Ken Smith
In <31CFE8...@oro.net> Tim Snellings <net...@oro.net> writes:
>
>I have 15 tickets available for purchase at $60 each to the Promise
>Keepers event this Friday and Saturday (28th and 29th) in Oakland. If
>you are interested in any or all of these, please send me an e-mail
ASAP >or call me at (916) 477-5974.
>
You should be able to get them at the door for half that. It seems
that a lot of PK men haven't been keeping their promises this year....
Douglas Gilliland
I did not know that PK tickets cost $$. Am I being joked with, or is it
true? Even Harvest is free to participants.
--
Doug Gilliland
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
George Hillman
>Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
>expensive? If my understanding is correct, they cost more than to go
>to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
>cost more than the face value of Rolling Stones tickets from a couple
>of years ago.
Forget the concerts and the meetings... I recommend that every man take the
$60 bucks, get a baby sitter and take the wife out on the town! If more guys
did that perhaps there would be less of a need for promise keepers!
;-)
Geo
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John C. Straffin
mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes) wrote:
> Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
> expensive? If my understanding is correct, they cost more than to go
> to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
> cost more than the face value of Rolling Stones tickets from a couple
> of years ago.
Well, when you consider that PK doesn't get any money from corporate
sponsorship and that they give you a casette full of music ($8 value),
a meal ($5 value), and a follow-up video ($10 value - I think there's
a video this year, isn't there?), I think the price is more than fair.
Add in 7 fantastic speakers, 2 special speakers for youth and single
men, and great musicians and you have a bargain!
> Does PK give scholarships to men who can't afford $60 bucks a head?
> Do they have free tickets? Where does all the money go? Is there any
> accountability here?
I don't know about PK scholarships, but I know alot of churches have
scholarships of their own. Last year, PK and a men's retreat occurred
within about 6 weeks of one another. Shortly after I expressed to the
"men's pastor" (the guy who coordinates the men's stuff) that I
couldn't really justify $60 for PK *and* $80+ for a two day retreat, I
was told that an "anonymous donor" was sponsoring me for all but $20
of the retreat cost. This year, I know that several men from our
church are going to PK on "reduced price" tickets, most of which were
"sponsored" by guys who've gone in the past and want others to have
the chance to go as well.
As for the fiscal accountability, I know there's an organization that
most public Christian charities/ministries voluntarily report to, but
I can't remember its name. Regardless, I'm sure PK reports to them so
that their entire financial dealings are on public record. (Can
anyone help me out with the details here?)
> A female who asks too many questions <grin>,
I'd rather have that than one that asks too few! :)
> Deana Holmes
>
>
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What are you supposed to do with these PGP sigs anyway?
- John (stra...@best.com)
================================================================================
"...You can take my life, my land , my liberty. Lock me up, I'll still be free
'Cause you can't take God from me!" - Audio Adrenaline, "Can't Take God Away"
Deana M. Holmes
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g...@316csi.com (George Hillman) wrote:
>In article <31d03559...@news.xmission.com>, mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes) wrote:
>
>>Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
>>expensive? If my understanding is correct, they cost more than to go
>>to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
>>cost more than the face value of Rolling Stones tickets from a couple
>>of years ago.
>
>Forget the concerts and the meetings... I recommend that every man take the
>$60 bucks, get a baby sitter and take the wife out on the town! If more guys
>did that perhaps there would be less of a need for promise keepers!
>
>;-)
You know, George, this is about the first thing I can agree with you
on. Perhaps there's hope yet.
Deana (who lives in a virtually PK-free zone in Utah)
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Deana M. Holmes
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
--Galatians 4:16
mir...@xmission.com
Jeff Yackley
My apologies to those on alt.religion.calvary-chapel -- I wouldn't normally
crosspost, but this is in response to a question that was crossposted.
In article <31d03559...@news.xmission.com>
mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes) writes:
>Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
>to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
>cost more than the face value of Rolling Stones tickets from a couple
>of years ago.
>
>Do they have free tickets? Where does all the money go?
Included in the $60 is a worship cassette, Rental of the Stadia (don't forget
set-up/teardown days and associated expenses). -- Speakers Friday night
and all day Saturday, Lunch on Saturday, and a professionally produced
Video of highlights from the event. Let's not forget salaries for those
who make their livelihood as an employee of PK (The founder, Bill McCartney,
does not take a salary from PK) -- Plus there is a weekly radio program,
wakeup calls, Keyman/Ambassador training, plus many other ministries that
PK performs.
>Is there any accountability here?
Accountability. While this does not guarantee 100% financial integrity,
it does mean that an organization submits itself to strict audits and that
the financial data is available to anyone who requests it.
Also, men are encouraged to tithe to their local church before donating
another dime to PK. -- Because PK is really about supporting the local church.
>A female who asks too many questions <grin>,
>Deana M. Holmes
Press ON!
jeff.y...@industry.net
http://www.whitedove.com/GSCC/integrity.html
Deana M. Holmes
Anton Hein wrote:
>Well, this may be one of the few issues on which we agree.
<rest of an extremely good post snipped>
Yep. Very good post, Anton. I agree with the assessment of that
writer.
The thing I don't understand is why PK does it this way. Is it just
an ego trip?
Deana
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Deana M. Holmes
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>
>> Do Rolling Stones concerts last for two days? Do they provide
>> lunch? Do they give a free tape and video of the concert?
>
>No, didn't know that PK lasted for two days. I can see why they
>provided lunch. But the $8 figure quoted in another post for the
>value of the tape is overvalued by a factor of about 4. (It probably
>cost no more than $2.00 to make that tape, is what I am saying.
>Tapes, especially lots of tapes, are cheap.)
There's a Friday night session of about two hours, and the gig goes on
all day on Saturday. The cold chicken, etc. couldn't have cost them more
than $5.
>
>As for the Rolling Stones and Lollapalooza, I was using them as
>examples of similar or comparative ticket prices. I haven't been to
>either event...
>
>That said, I rather don't appreciate the slam against the Stones or
>Lollapalooza. Their intent is to make music and make money. They're
>not in the business of preaching...which apparently is a business.
The business is selling vapid and grossly overpriced books and tapes.
"Preaching" is arguably a loss leader. The good news was that at this
year's Denver PK, the tent was more or less empty.
>
>Maybe if Christian music weren't so vapid...but that's another
>subject, for another group.
Christian music is for those garage bands who can't make it in the bigs.
They need a league of their own. Witness George Hillman....
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>jop...@m5.enet.dec.com () wrote:
>
>> Do Rolling Stones concerts last for two days? Do they provide
>> lunch? Do they give a free tape and video of the concert?
>
>provided. Neither do free tapes and videos of the concerts. (I can
>buy blank cassettes in bulk for less than 10 cents a piece - videos
>for less than 30 cents).
>
>> Do the Rolling Stones commit to giving $1million to the
>> rebuilding of burned churches?
>
>It would be a wonderful publicity stunt. Come to think of it, though,
>they also don't promote PK values.
>
>> And I wonder what redeeming social value the Rolling stones
>> (or Lollapalooza) provide to society... Truly, PK seeks to
>> unwind the twisting of society's morality by modern trappings
>> such as the entertainment industry.
>
>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these bands
made the crossover? The only person I know of to make the transition is
Amy Grant. And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
love his work -- when he became a Christian, his music went to hell in a
handbasket....
Why is it that Xian music is an intellectual wasteland? Why do Xian
musicians have to co-opt popular musical styles like thrash, metal, rap,
et al., as opposed to _inventing their own_? Does accepting Jesus into
one's life rob you of creativity?
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>
>That sounds like a good investment. Other people already have made
>the point that the Promise Keepers movement merely does what the local
>church should have been doing all along - at a "cost" of far less than
>$60 per person.
If 10% of your income is less than $60 per person, you're in the wrong
country....
jop...@m5.enet.dec.com
|>
|>ah...@cts.com (Anton Hein) wrote:
|>>
|>>Harvest Crusades last for 3 days... Lunch does not have to be
|>>provided. Neither do free tapes and videos of the concerts. (I can
|>>buy blank cassettes in bulk for less than 10 cents a piece - videos
|>>for less than 30 cents).
Sure, lunch does not have to be provided, but the point is that
lunch *IS* provided. People are asking why it costs $60, and
that is one reason.
As for the tapes and videos, the point of PromiseKeepers is to
instill a lifestyle change -- forever -- in the man. A 2-day
event is just that -- an event. Being able to take home the
tape and the video allows the man to replay EVERY DAY if needed
the messages and the inspirations.
There was a Harvest Crusade in Colorado Springs. It was held
in a stadium that could not hold 50,000 people. PromiseKeepers
was held at Mile High stadium (Denver Broncos) and they also
used McNichols Arena (professional hockey and basketball) across
the street for the youth breakout. Such facilities do not come
cheap. Were I to attend a Broncos game, I'd end up paying $30
per seat. Considering that I actually attended a 2-day 'game'
at that same stadium, I do not feel robbed at all by the price
I paid.
I really don't understand the objection to this price. Whether
a man is charged $60 or $zero for this life-changing event (and
in the long run a world-changing event), the results that this
movement will reap is fully worth the price! I think that those
who are objecting to the cost simply do not understand what the
movement is achieving.
|>>> Do the Rolling Stones commit to giving $1million to the
|>>> rebuilding of burned churches?
|>>
|>>It would be a wonderful publicity stunt.
Please tell me that I am misinterpreting your statement... Are
you saying that PK is donating the money as a publicity stunt?
How cynical! That offends me.
--
Joe Oppelt
*************
The opinion of my employer should not be inferred from my posting.
George Hillman
.
>
> Christian music is for those garage bands who can't make it in the bigs.
>They need a league of their own. Witness George Hillman....
>
Against my better judgement I'll answer you though I perceive that you
are making a vain attempt to agitate me more than you wish to discuss this
topic...
Christian Music is for Christians. Just like Christmas music is for Christmas... Easter music is for Easter, Jingle music is for advertising, Film scores are for soundtracks, etc.
In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant
illustration of only being good enough for the minor leagues... to me, playing
music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I had a secular music career and
left it!
It may be of some opinion that many Christian artists are not as good as
secular artists, but then again most secular artists cannot lead a worship
service or express any truth or conviction when doing "gospel" music...
Geo
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3.16 Computer Services, Inc.
The Web Presence Provider for the RE$T of U$!!
(800) 411-7377 (in New Jersey [201] 857-5985)
in...@316csi.com (auto e-mail) off...@316csi.com (human) http://www.316csi.com/
George Hillman
>>
>>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
>>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
>
> In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these bands
>made the crossover?
Since when has "crossing over" been the object of pursuing Christian music?
>The only person I know of to make the transition is
>Amy Grant.
Since when has Amy been the template for ALL Christian music? She's only doing
what SHE feels is right... not what all Christians should do... There are tons
of ministries and worship leaders included as part of "Christian music". Amy
does not represent everyone!
Will God reward her above all other Christian musicians because she landed a
secular record deal?
>And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
>love his work -- when he became a Christian, his music went to hell in a
>handbasket....
> Why is it that Xian music is an intellectual wasteland? Why do Xian
>musicians have to co-opt popular musical styles like thrash, metal, rap,
>et al., as opposed to _inventing their own_? Does accepting Jesus into
>one's life rob you of creativity?
You are confusing their musical style, your taste and the public's preference
with Christianity...
Imagine Randy Travis sitting in with Miles Davis?? How about Pavoratti singing
with Boys to Men?
Point is,
1) different artists styles and genre's may not mix well - and shouldn't! One
person's strength is another's weakness. Perhaps Mr. Lightfoot spent his life
perfecting his style of singing and writing that you love as opposed to his
brief (and perhaps unneccesary) effort at performing "Gospel" music. The same
thing can be said of that "moondance" song guy (i don't remember his name -
sorry!)
2) my personal experience and observations of others shows that style and
genre have nothing to do with Christianity - Any music can be
considered Christian merely because it reflects a Christian perspective, is
enjoyed by Christians - and ideally because it's made by Christians.It's
quality - like ALL music is judged by the artists' competance and the
preference of those who hear it.
Unlike the "twang" in country, the "thump" in r&b, the "moodiness" of
alternative, the "noisy-ness" of rap - even the decency and order in
classical, Christian music has no traditional sound - only a topic and / or
perspective.
Ron Stephens
(oneiric) wrote:
>church" every other scripture on marriage is a variation on that theme. I
>don't need Promise Keepers to make it work; as a for accountability, my wife
>is who keeps me accountible to God. When you look at it, isn't Promisekeepers
>just another religious form of sexism (i.e. "I can tell things to my brothers
>that I can't tell to my other half.)? I'm trying to obey God in freeing up my
>wife to be everything she can be, and I'm enjoying that a great deal. I think
>that's the way a marriage was designed by God to work. This covering thing is
>at best a cultural limitation to Paul's consumate revelation, and at worst
>the most damaging thing that has ever been foisted upon the church. We
>finally evolved out of slavery, when are we going to outgrow chattle
>relationships when it comes to women? (And Deana, if you're reading this,
>I've asked my wife a have dozen times to get in contact with you. She will
>eventually, but she has a hard time sitting at the computer. Might be an
>indictment toward me. :-})
There's a lot about P.K. that should bother us, but this aint it. In
regard to the things you commented on, you've either been misinformed or
have misunderstood.
What you desicribe positively - "I'm trying to obey God in freeing up my
wife to be everything she can be, and I'm enjoying that a great deal. I
think that's the way a marriage was designed by God to work." - is right
in line with P.K. thinking.
Regarding the "covering"/headship thing, understanding what Paul meant
when he instructed us to submit to one another, would difuse your disdain.
A "chattel relationship" between man and women is precisely what
Christianity destroys.
In other words, we are in agreement as to principals. How is it that you
don't see the Bible supporting those principals?
Ron
A.J. Nadeau
>
>Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
>>>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
>>
>> In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these bands
>>Amy Grant. And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
>>handbasket....
>> Why is it that Xian music is an intellectual wasteland? Why do Xian
>>musicians have to co-opt popular musical styles like thrash, metal, rap,
>>et al., as opposed to _inventing their own_? Does accepting Jesus into
>>one's life rob you of creativity?
>
>Lewis draws Christians and non-Christians alike. Eric Clapton once
>said that Phil Keaggy is one of the best guitar players in the world.
>Dennis Agajanian... well, I don't like country music at all, but if he
>plays in garages at all they'd better be huge garages as he is well
>loved.
>
>I agree that there are lots of Christian groups that would never make
>it as secular bands (the reverse is true as well, of course). Back in
>the seventies, I was the first person to introduce Christian rock
>music to Dutch Christian radio. It was a wild ride. Basically, some
>Christians have a hard times with all things they consider secular.
>
>As for me, I'd rather listen to Pink Floyd (sorry, getting older...),
>than any number of Christian bands. Still, to call all Christian
>music an "intellectual wasteland" is to admit that you are very, very
>biased.
>
>Anton
>
...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular
business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a
guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who
composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to
mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head
East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time
vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
Anton, I think Ken's bitterness is rearing it's ugly head again...
God's Grace and Peace Be With You All...
A.J. Nadeau
Douglas Gilliland
> George Hillman wrote:
> >Forget the concerts and the meetings... I recommend that every man take the
> >$60 bucks, get a baby sitter and take the wife out on the town! If more guys
> >did that perhaps there would be less of a need for promise keepers!
> >
> >;-)
>
> You know, George, this is about the first thing I can agree with you
> on. Perhaps there's hope yet.
>
> Deana (who lives in a virtually PK-free zone in Utah)
>
> Version: 2.6.2
>
> r5nRvbvlDh+xzUNvv1WOG2/dXXz9zrruiSMB6l8J67YVc5Imt8BqEMPyQbEeYHad
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> fdNX2NisiL4=
> =FyLL
>
> Deana M. Holmes
> --Galatians 4:16
> mir...@xmission.com
Wow, I agree too.
It does not matter what Deana thinks about PK since she is a girl anyway and this
is a boy thing :)
frank dever
>ah...@cts.com (Anton Hein) wrote:
>>jop...@m5.enet.dec.com () wrote:
>>
>>> Do Rolling Stones concerts last for two days? Do they provide
>>> lunch? Do they give a free tape and video of the concert?
>>
>>Harvest Crusades last for 3 days... Lunch does not have to be
>>provided. Neither do free tapes and videos of the concerts. (I can
>>buy blank cassettes in bulk for less than 10 cents a piece - videos
>>for less than 30 cents).
>>
>>> Do the Rolling Stones commit to giving $1million to the
>>> rebuilding of burned churches?
>>
>>It would be a wonderful publicity stunt. Come to think of it, though,
>>they also don't promote PK values.
>>
>>> And I wonder what redeeming social value the Rolling stones
>>> (or Lollapalooza) provide to society... Truly, PK seeks to
>>> unwind the twisting of society's morality by modern trappings
>>> such as the entertainment industry.
>>
>>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
>>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
>
> In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these bands
>made the crossover? The only person I know of to make the transition is
>Amy Grant. And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
>love his work -- when he became a Christian, his music went to hell in a
>handbasket....
> Why is it that Xian music is an intellectual wasteland? Why do Xian
>musicians have to co-opt popular musical styles like thrash, metal, rap,
>et al., as opposed to _inventing their own_? Does accepting Jesus into
>one's life rob you of creativity?
>
>
The reason for the lack of energy: most people who are truly
zealous in pursuing the Lord are so exhausted by the life they were
recently engaged in, that they can't spare any. They are
ex-alcoholics, ex-addicts, ex-cons, ex-theives, ex-buttheads, ex...
etc.. and are spending all their time trying to get themselves back
into life.
The bands know this, and want to give them what they want - a
taste of the dog that bit them. A little beer in the morning to help
them recover from their hangover. In this analogy, their life is
represented by a wild-drunken party the night before, and though
they've sworn off bad living, they return to their old vomit. However,
they are now so filled with regret at having eaten that filth in the
first place, that they only eat the big chunks.
That came out well, didn't it? <g>
-frank
-----
I'm always right. How can that be? It's a miracle!
eric kimball
>eric kimball <eric.bible.ba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> Wow, Maybe I should start reading that rag. Who wrote the piece?
>>It must be someone with some understanding of ekklesiology(sp). Anton,
>>nice catch.
>
>Try ecclesiology. By the way, the word has two distinctly different
>meanings:
>
Sometimes my greek and english get mixed, there was a time when I
would read the english in greek and the greek in english.
>1) the study of church architecture and adornment
>2) theological doctrine relating to the Church
Thanks, Anton. Didnt the context determine which one I was
refering to?
>Reduced even further, you could say some people are interested in that
>which is on the outside, while others focus on that which is on the
>inside. Language is a wonderful thing :)
Yes, it is. I prefer the later but the former is cool also.
>
>The "rag" - one of the meanings of which indicates quality paper with
>a high linen or cotton content - is a monthly, tabloid size, Christian
>newspaper printed on ordinary newsprint. Cal Thomas has called it the
>best Christian newspaper in America.
I feel as if I could purchase some quality letterhead now. Could
you explain to me why on a package of say, 60# offset, it has two sets of
numbers that look like this '24/60'? Any help would be greatly
apreciated.
>
>As the name indicates, the Southern California Christian Times is
>distributed throughout Southern California. You can also subscribe by
>mail, at $19.95 for one-year, 12 issues. For info, call:
>619-440-6397, or fax: 619-440-6515.
>
>Oh, the letter writer's name is Howard DuBois.
Thanks, did you say "letter"? As in a letter to the editor type
thing? I had hoped it was from a staff writer.
>
>Anton
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Links to Christian News Sources,
>Plus links to Apologetics Sites,
>and San Diego County's Christian Events Calendar
>at: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/a/ahein
Eric
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>ah...@cts.com (Anton Hein) wrote:
>>>
>
>Also, you assume that most Christians agree the Bible teaches we
>should tithe 10%.
>
What does the word "tithe" mean, Anton?
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>In article <4qu3ih$s...@tribune.concentric.net>, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> Christian music is for those garage bands who can't make it in the bigs. >>They need a league of their own. Witness George Hill=
man....
>
>Against my better judgement I'll answer you though I perceive that you
>are making a vain attempt to agitate me more than you wish to discuss this >topic...
>
>Christian Music is for Christians. Just like Christmas music is for Christmas... Easter music is for Easter, Jingle music is for ad=
vertising, Film scores are for soundtracks, etc.
>
>In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant >illustration of only being good enough for the mino=
r leagues... to me, playing >music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I had a secular music career and >left it!
>
>It may be of some opinion that many Christian artists are not as good as
>secular artists,
I'll take that as a confession.
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel >through music, as well as some committed Christians i=
nvolved in the secular >business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a >guest on Joe Satriani's latest =
CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who >composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to >menti=
on John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head >East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all=
-time >vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
Mark Farner? MARK FARNER?!? To state the case is to refute it.
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>In article <4qu3ih$s...@tribune.concentric.net>, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> Christian music is for those garage bands who can't make it in the bigs. >>They need a league of their own. Witness George Hill=
man....
>
>Against my better judgement I'll answer you though I perceive that you
>are making a vain attempt to agitate me more than you wish to discuss this >topic...
>
>Christian Music is for Christians.
Most of the Christians I know think CCM is warmed-over elevator music.
Hell, even Anton would rather listen to Pink Floyd.
>Just like Christmas music is for Christmas... Easter music is for Easter, Jingle music is for advertising, Film scores are for soun=
dtracks, etc.
>
>In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant >illustration of only being good enough for the mino=
r leagues... to me, playing >music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I had a secular music career and >left it!
Like Bob Larson (who claimed to have had written a hit song at 13, but
the only surviving member of _his_ garage band didn't know what it was)?
Were you a garden-variety lounge lizard?
>It may be of some opinion that many Christian artists are not as good as
>secular artists,
I'll take that as a concession.
>but then again most secular artists cannot lead a worship >service or express any truth or conviction when doing "gospel" music...
The same goes for a lot of ministers....
Jason
>>Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
>>>>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
>>>
>>> In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these bands
>>>made the crossover? The only person I know of to make the transition is
>>>Amy Grant. And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
>>>love his work -- when he became a Christian, his music went to hell in a
>>>handbasket....
<snip>
>....And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
>through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular
>business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a
>guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who
>composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to
>mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head
>East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time
>vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
Some more additions to the groups that made the "crossover": U2 (remember the
song, "Gloria"? Its not about a woman), Pat Benitar, Whitney Houston, Mark
Knofler (of Dire Straits), Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Randy Travis, Glen
Campbell, Hank Williams, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Frankin, Dianna
Ross, and Elvis Presley as well as a few others that I can't think of at the
moment.
And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I offer
a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't been going too well since he became
a muslim.
Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most of
what's on the top 40 these days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Mohler j_mo...@wmc34b.wmc.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will give you my food, I will give you my heart, but I will not give you
my country. - Author Unknown
A.J. Nadeau
>
>ajna...@worldnet.att.net (A.J. Nadeau) wrote:
>
>>...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
>>through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular
>>business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a
>>guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy
who
>>composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to
>>mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head
>>East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time
>>vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>
>the Lord! I just wish Pink Floyd would follow their lead...
>
>>Anton, I think Ken's bitterness is rearing it's ugly head again...
>
>talked in the past. I published some of his articles, and I can - up
>to a point - understand where he is coming from. However, it is hard
>to see what bitterness and unforgiveness can do to a person. Keep him
>in your prayers :)
I will, Bro', and God Be With Ya!!
>Anton
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Links to Christian News Sources,
>Plus links to Apologetics Sites,
>and San Diego County's Christian Events Calendar
>at: http://www.users.cts.com/sd/a/ahein
In His Love,
A.J. Nadeau
A.J. Nadeau
>
>ajna...@worldnet.att.net (A.J. Nadeau) wrote:
>
>>...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
>nvolved in the secular >business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton,
>CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who >composed "Dust In the Wind"
>on John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head >East)...And
>-time >vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>
>
>
God Bless Ya!
A.J. Nadeau
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>In article <4qusfq$e...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, ajna...@worldnet.att.net (A.J. Nadeau) writes:
>>>Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
<remarks concerning "_MR._ Mark Farner" (giggle) snipped>
>
>Some more additions to the groups that made the "crossover": U2 (remember the >song, "Gloria"? Its not about a woman), Pat Benita=
r, Whitney Houston, Mark >Knofler (of Dire Straits), Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Randy Travis, Glen >Campbell, Hank Williams, Ray C=
harles, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Frankin, Dianna >Ross, and Elvis Presley as well as a few others that I can't think of at the >moment.=
Elvis Presley? ELVIS PRESLEY?!? Now, there's an example of a Christian
who lived like hell! "Elvis died on the throne for your sins...."
I'm not disputing the fact that there are Christians in the music world.
What I am saying is that contemporary Christian music ("CCM") is, by and
large, not up to the standards of secular music in terms of creativity and
content. A good CCM song should attract a secular audience as well, since
the U.S. market is 85-90% Christian. A decent CCM act (e.g., Amy Grant)
should be able to make the transition to the secular market. But very few
do. You have people like Used-CAR-sales-MAN pumping out elevator music.
>
>And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I offer >a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't been g=
oing too well since he became >a muslim.
In Lightfoot's case, he probably got the better of the bargain. He was
this close from being a full-blown alkie. I didn't even know Stevens was
still a performer. But if he is, and he is playing "Muslim Contemporary
Music" (presuming that there even _IS_ such a thing), I doubt it would be
welcomed by a Western market.
>
>Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most of >what's on the top 40 these days.
Guess you must be getting old....
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>ajna...@worldnet.att.net (A.J. Nadeau) wrote:
>
>There are so many well-known artist who have found peace and joy with
>the Lord! I just wish Pink Floyd would follow their lead...
>
>>Anton, I think Ken's bitterness is rearing it's ugly head again...
>
>It's too bad. Honest, I believe Ken to be a nice guy. Him and I have
>talked in the past. I published some of his articles, and I can - up
>to a point - understand where he is coming from. However, it is hard
>to see what bitterness and unforgiveness can do to a person. Keep him
>in your prayers :)
I'm not saying that there aren't "Christians" in contemporary music but
rather, that _Christian contemporary music_ ("CCM") doesn't measure up to
secular standards in terms of creativity or content. The evidence for my
thesis is the lack of crossover -- if Petra's videos had sufficient tech-
nical and aesthetic merit, MTV would play them on their own motion. Why?
Their audience would _DEMAND_ it.
Where is the "bitterness" in that?
Anton, your ad misericordiam line of argument is getting a trifle old.
Rather than dealing with the issues I raise, you seek instead to dismiss
them by painting them with the broad brush of my alleged bitterness. If
I were of a similar mind-set, what I might say could be absolutely deva-
stating. But I haven't done it yet, out of respect for you as a person.
J.D. Ferguson
>
>>....And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
>>through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular
>>business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a
>>guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who
>>composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to
>>mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head
>>East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time
>>vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>
>Some more additions to the groups that made the "crossover": U2 (remember the
>song, "Gloria"? Its not about a woman), Pat Benitar, Whitney Houston, Mark
>Knofler (of Dire Straits), Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Randy Travis, Glen
>Campbell, Hank Williams,
Hank Williams?, I Love his music, but HANK WILLIAMS?!?!?!?!
Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Frankin, Dianna
>Ross, and Elvis Presley as well as a few others that I can't think of at the
>moment.
>
>And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I offer
>a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't been going too well since he became
>a muslim.
>
>Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most of
>what's on the top 40 these days.
>
J.D. Ferguson
(Oh no, I feel another thread coming on.......)
R57,
Are you assuming (yes tithe means tenth) that Christians are under
the O.T. obligation *to* tithe?
J.D.
Bob Doyle
>In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant
>illustration of only being good enough for the minor leagues... to me, playing
>music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I had a secular music career and
>left it!
>
>It may be of some opinion that many Christian artists are not as good as
>secular artists, but then again most secular artists cannot lead a worship
>service or express any truth or conviction when doing "gospel" music...
A hearty agreement here. When I first starting attending church, a
Vineyard...about 1982....I was a pretty darn good guitar player. I immediately
joined the wednesday night worship practices. There was only one guitar player
there who was anywhere near as good as me. He was better, in fact. Anton
will remember him. Name was Gene. After 3 or 4 weeks of trying to impress
people with my superior guitar techniques, this fellow took me aside and
explained the difference between playing music and playing worship. I left the
practices for 6 months, thinking that they just didn't appreciate me.
When I came back, humbled and slightly wiser, they received me with open arms.
I played with the Sunday morning team for the next 7 years, but I NEVER led
the worship team. I knew I wasn't qualified. I was (and am) content to play
backup guitar, second fiddle if you will, behind others whose skills may not
be top-notch, but who know how to lead worship.
God bless those rare folks in churches all over the world who are skilled at
both musicianship and worship leading.
bob doyle
Shaun A. Maher
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Tim Snellings <net...@oro.net> wrote:
>>I have 15 tickets available for purchase at $60 each to the Promise
>>Keepers event this Friday and Saturday (28th and 29th) in Oakland. If
>>you are interested in any or all of these, please send me an e-mail ASAP
>>or call me at (916) 477-5974.
>Does anyone ever question why these tickets are so incredibly
>expensive? If my understanding is correct, they cost more than to go
>to Lollapalooza (alternative college music festival). I *know* they
No wonder - Lollapalooza does feature such a life changing schedule of
speakers and events!
>A female who asks too many questions <grin>,
>Deana Holmes
Well, I have been to the most recent PK event in D.C. and I say its
well worth the money and a bargain in my opinion. In addition to
getting one and a half days worth of great Christian speakers
(Franklin Graham, Jack Hayford, Gary Smalley) and enlightenment
(sessions on parenting, being a better husband, tearing down the walls
of racism), you get an excellent, well-produced audio cassette of
fantastic Christian Contemporary Music (the Maranatha Praise Band -
I'd price that at about $15 bucks these days) and you get lunch on
Saturday (a decent box lunch with chicken and assorted side dishes -
in D.C. that's about $10 for the type of food they provide). Not a
bad deal for $60 - I'd have paid a lot more for the type of experience
that PK provides - its truely life changing! 50,000 men praying and
signing hymns at the top of their lungs is an incredible experience!
Shaun Maher
Douglas Gilliland
> Maybe if Christian music weren't so vapid...but that's another
> subject, for another group.
Maybe you would like a list of groups that aren't dead/lifeless. CC has
some pretty good groups in their Maranatha Music record company with a
range of musical types. What style do you like?
As to their exploitation of their artists, that's a whole other thread.
George Hillman
>g...@316csi.com (George Hillman) wrote:
>>>
>>> Christian music is for those garage bands who can't make it in the bigs.
> >>They need a league of their own. Witness George Hill=
>man....
>>
>>Against my better judgement I'll answer you though I perceive that you
>>are making a vain attempt to agitate me more than you wish to discuss this
> >topic...
>>
>>Christian Music is for Christians.
>
> Most of the Christians I know think CCM is warmed-over elevator music.
>Hell, even Anton would rather listen to Pink Floyd.
>
I agree too- but CCM is a small percentage of ALL Christian music in the
world!
>>Just like Christmas music is for Christmas... Easter music is for Easter,
> Jingle music is for advertising, Film scores are for soun=
>dtracks, etc.
>>
>>In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant
> >illustration of only being good enough for the mino=
>r leagues... to me, playing >music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I
> had a secular music career and >left it!
>
> Like Bob Larson (who claimed to have had written a hit song at 13, but
>the only surviving member of _his_ garage band didn't know what it was)?
>Were you a garden-variety lounge lizard?
>
No, I played in a "post-punk" (which is apparently is grunge and
alternative these days!) band that played all original music mostly in the
downtown Manhattan (NY) clubs that spawned a number of bands like Talking
Heads, NY Dolls, and all that other "eighties" stuff!
I didn't claim any fame or hits, but it was my career nonetheless...
>>It may be of some opinion that many Christian artists are not as good as
>>secular artists,
>
> I'll take that as a concession.
>
>>but then again most secular artists cannot lead a worship >service or express
> any truth or conviction when doing "gospel" music...
>
> The same goes for a lot of ministers....
>
>
Point is that you cannot measure Christian and Secular artists by the same
standards... they have different objectives and functions...
George Hillman
> Elvis Presley? ELVIS PRESLEY?!? Now, there's an example of a Christian
>who lived like hell! "Elvis died on the throne for your sins...."
>
His last words were "Thankyou... Thankyou verymuch...."
> I'm not disputing the fact that there are Christians in the music world.
>What I am saying is that contemporary Christian music ("CCM") is, by and
>large, not up to the standards of secular music in terms of creativity and
>content.
My point again is that #1 CCM is not a good representation of ALL Christian
music. Like most secular pop, it reflects what record execs feel they can make
money at more than the taste or needs of the record buying public...
There is so much more to Christian music than what most station put on to kill
time between the teaching ministries!
>A good CCM song should attract a secular audience as well, since
>the U.S. market is 85-90% Christian. A decent CCM act (e.g., Amy Grant)
>should be able to make the transition to the secular market. But very few
>do. You have people like Used-CAR-sales-MAN pumping out elevator music.
>>
>>And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I
> offer >a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't been g=
>oing too well since he became >a muslim.
>
> In Lightfoot's case, he probably got the better of the bargain. He was
>this close from being a full-blown alkie. I didn't even know Stevens was
>still a performer. But if he is, and he is playing "Muslim Contemporary
>Music" (presuming that there even _IS_ such a thing), I doubt it would be
>welcomed by a Western market.
>>
I also submit that both of these "stone-age" musicians are bad examples -
they probably would be making out of date crummy music today regardless of
their religious beliefs! Most older music and musicians were for a past "era"
and would not be considered appealing by today's standards!
Very few make a successful come-back...
>>Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most of
> >what's on the top 40 these days.
Case and point - Christian music is appealing because it's Christian - not
because it makes people shake their butts like secular music... You cannot
judge spiritual things by carnal means - see 1st Corinthians chapter 2...
George Hillman
>Some more additions to the groups that made the "crossover": U2 (remember the
>song, "Gloria"? Its not about a woman), Pat Benitar, Whitney Houston, Mark
>Knofler (of Dire Straits), Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Randy Travis, Glen
>Campbell, Hank Williams, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Frankin, Dianna
>Ross, and Elvis Presley as well as a few others that I can't think of at the
>moment.
I'd like to add more recently the rapper MC Hammer - but in this case all
Christians rejoiced that he crossed over and left us out of it!!!
Geo!
•
George Hillman
>In article <4queps$f...@tribune.concentric.net>, g...@316csi.com (George Hillman)
> wrote:
>
>>In general Christian musicians CHOOSE THEIR FIELD. It's not like your ignorant
>
>
>>music that Glorifies God is the "big" league! I had a secular music career and
>
>>left it!
>>
>
>Vineyard...about 1982....I was a pretty darn good guitar player. I immediately
>joined the wednesday night worship practices. There was only one guitar player
>there who was anywhere near as good as me. He was better, in fact. Anton
>will remember him. Name was Gene. After 3 or 4 weeks of trying to impress
>people with my superior guitar techniques, this fellow took me aside and
>explained the difference between playing music and playing worship. I left the
>practices for 6 months, thinking that they just didn't appreciate me.
>
>When I came back, humbled and slightly wiser, they received me with open arms.
>I played with the Sunday morning team for the next 7 years, but I NEVER led
>the worship team. I knew I wasn't qualified. I was (and am) content to play
>backup guitar, second fiddle if you will, behind others whose skills may not
>be top-notch, but who know how to lead worship.
>
>God bless those rare folks in churches all over the world who are skilled at
>both musicianship and worship leading.
>
>bob doyle
Excellent!
We are all different members in the same body! Music and musicians all have
different callings and abilties... there's more to music than what MTV says
there is!
Geo
A.J. Nadeau
That's for sure, George!!!
oneiric
>Oneiric wrote:
>
>> I don't need Promise Keepers to make [my relationship with my wife] work;
>>as a for accountability, my wife is who keeps me accountible to God. When
>>you look at it, isn't Promisekeepers just another religious form of sexism
>>(i.e. "I can tell things to my brothers that I can't tell to my other
>>half.)? I'm trying to obey God in freeing up my wife to be everything she
>>can be, and I'm enjoying that a great deal. I think that's the way a
>>marriage was designed by God to work. This covering thing is at best a
>>cultural limitation to Paul's consumate revelation, and at worst the most
>>damaging thing that has ever been foisted upon the church. We"ve finally
>>evolved out of slavery, when are we going to outgrow chattle relationships
>>when it comes to women?
>There's a lot about P.K. that should bother us, but this aint it. In
>regard to the things you commented on, you've either been misinformed or
>have misunderstood.
>
<snip>
>
>Regarding the "covering"/headship thing, understanding what Paul meant
>when he instructed us to submit to one another, would diffuse your disdain.
"All persons are created equal, but some are more equal than others." What if
a woman exhibits an anointed gift of pastoring a church? I know a few, and
their fellowships are bearing wonderful fruit. But they wouldn't be
recognized in most evangelical churches, including Calvary.
>A "chattel relationship" between man and women is precisely what
>Christianity destroys.
No, should be destroying. And at one time Paul set the ball in motion, given
the limitations of his culture. I believe Paul pushed the envelope as much as
he could get away with. But slavery and the chattel role of women were too
ingrained in the world to outright destroy in Paul's day. I believe Paul made
a reluctant concession on both counts, believing that the Spirit of God would
have His ultimate way. Paul's declaration in Ga 3:28 has yet to be realized,
but didn't Jesus pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it
is in heaven."? What makes you think God's will is complete in this area?
I've heard numerous attempts over the years to reconcile the subordinate
status of women in the church with Ga 3:28, when solid scholarship has shown
that it's not necessary to do so.
>In other words, we are in agreement as to principals. How is it that you
>don't see the Bible supporting those principals?
>
>Ron
It's not the Word I struggle with, Ron. It's the institutions that use it to
justify behavior that is contrary to God's heart. Simple questions. Is
slavery wrong? According to a literal interpretation of Paul's letters, it
appears to me that Paul endorsed slavery. Is the Bible contradicting itself,
or is there another way we can understand these passages of scripture? And if
these scriptures can be understood in such a way as to not stand in the way
of a righteous condemnation of slavery, then why can't the same hermeneutical
tool be used to take the yoke of our sisters backs? I've got my explanations,
and they require repentance on the part of Christian men, but I'll defer to
you.
Oneiric
"Ideology breeds contempt"
one...@teleport.com
по
Bob Doyle
>Ah, the memories. Yes, I remember Gene. But.... I don't know if
>anyone ever told you, Bob... It was not so much the guitar playing we
>objected to, but your singing... :)
I guess there's only room for one Bob Dylan...
Gary once told me, in his ever so gentle way, that my voice was "Dylan-esque".
What he meant to say was that I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, but he was
far too kind to say that :-)
bob doyle
Ron Stephens
> Mark Farner? MARK FARNER?!? To state the case is to refute it.
Don't be too quick my friend. Mark's last ablum, "Some Kinda Wonderful"
set a new standard: that music that glorifies Jesus doesn't have to be
wimpy.
BTW: I've heard unsubstantiated reports that Michael McDonald and Joe
Walsh are our brother in Jesus now. Anybody know about this?
Perry Robinson
On 28 Jun 1996 Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> ajna...@worldnet.att.net (A.J. Nadeau) wrote:
>
> >...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel >through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular >business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a >guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who >composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to >mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head >East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time >vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>
> Mark Farner? MARK FARNER?!? To state the case is to refute it.
>
>
>
>
Ken, whats the deal with Mark Farner? Why does that name ring a bell?
want to fill me in?
NIKA ICXC
PCR
Perry Robinson
But the Church will still be here. Why not work for the Church, rather
for some man made organisation?
The Jerusalem Above is our Mother Gal 4:21ff
NIKA ICXC
PCR
Perry Robinson
music generally sux
NIKA ICXC
PCR
Ron Stephens
(oneiric) wrote:
>It's not the Word I struggle with, Ron. It's the institutions that use it to
>justify behavior that is contrary to God's heart.
I understand this point, and agree wholeheartedly.
Jeffrey W. Mortenson
alt.org.promisekeepers and alt.religion.christian.calvary-chapel did one over
on both groups. Now it's like this:
If the TOPIC is relevant to both groups, post to both, if it isn't DON'T. I
could really care less about which church is right or how you feel about
Promisekeepers, I like PK and subscribe for PK news. Rev Steve Winter is gone,
so MASSIVE cross-posting is too, let's try to clean up the cross postings
unless they are absolutely necessary. I know some of you are going to be upset
with me and think "Wow, what a jerk, who does he think he is?!" Well, I'm just
another voice in the wilderness, nobody in particluar, just another person who
is tired of arguements across "boundries".
Before you reply to a message, check the addressing and remove the newsgroup
that this topic doesn't pertain to. Before you know it, the PK board and the
Church board will be back to "normal?" (actually another bonehead will come
around and try to stir up something else on both). Remember we are supposed to
be proclaiming the word not fighting between each other, that's saved for the
heathens.
Thanks for your time.
________________________________________________________________________
[
[|\ jwm...@datasync.com
B*<#########[|+>-==================================================-----
[|/ Ocean Springs, Mississippi
[ Pray for President Clinton (Psalms 109:8)
Personal Homepage: http://www.datasync.com/~jwmort/welcome.html
________________________________________________________________________
oneiric
(Somebody wrote)
>>Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most
>>what's on the top 40 these days.
>
> Guess you must be getting old....
Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like if
they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not being
facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
Oneiric
"Ideology breeds contempt"
oneiric
по
Douglas Gilliland
> ...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel
> through music, as well as some committed Christians involved in the secular
> business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a
> guest on Joe Satriani's latest CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who
> composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to
> mention John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head
> East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite all-time
> vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>
>
> A.J. Nadeau
Any Kings-X fans out there? They are rad dude. They are crossover.
My favorite artist of any sort is Rich Mullins. He has some pretty deep lyrics.
He does a road show concert that is unforgetable.
Deana M. Holmes
[alt.org.promisekeepers snipped from the Subject: line]
one...@teleport.com (oneiric) wrote:
>Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like if
>they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not being
>facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
>going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
>and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
Heh. I'm waiting for the day that Amy Grant cuts her hair, gets a
couple of tattoos and a nosering and starts recording covers of Alanis
Morrisette, Joan Osborne, Courtney Love, and Melissa Etheridge
[substitute in whoever you like].
Now that album I would run out and buy. :)
Deana
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Deana M. Holmes
alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995
April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness
mir...@xmission.com
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>In article <4r0mr9$b...@tribune.concentric.net>, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
our sins...."
>>
>His last words were "Thankyou... Thankyou verymuch...."
>
("CCM") is, by and >>large, not up to the standards of secular music in terms of creativity and >>content.
>
execs feel they can make >money at more than the taste or needs of the record buying public...
Which is generally one and the same. If the stuff isn't saleable, the
record execs won't make money.
>
>There is so much more to Christian music than what most station put on to kill >time between the teaching ministries!
>
>>A good CCM song should attract a secular audience as well, since
>>the U.S. market is 85-90% Christian. A decent CCM act (e.g., Amy Grant)
>>should be able to make the transition to the secular market. But very few >>do. You have people like Used-CAR-sales-MAN pumping =
out elevator music.
>>>
>>>And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I >> offer >a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't b=
een g=
>>oing too well since he became >a muslim.
>>
>> In Lightfoot's case, he probably got the better of the bargain. He was >>this close from being a full-blown alkie. I didn't ev=
en know Stevens was >>still a performer. But if he is, and he is playing "Muslim Contemporary >>Music" (presuming that there even _=
IS_ such a thing), I doubt it would be >>welcomed by a Western market.
>
>I also submit that both of these "stone-age" musicians are bad examples -
>they probably would be making out of date crummy music today regardless of>their religious beliefs! Most older music and musicians =
were for a past "era" >and would not be considered appealing by today's standards!
Lightfoot in particular was a balladeer -- and a _very_ competent one, I
might add. That kind of music doesn't come in and out of style like disco
or rap (thank God!). If he was making good music today, it would sell.
>
>Very few make a successful come-back...
>
>>>Personally, I would rather listen to a spirit-filled garage band than most of >> >what's on the top 40 these days.
>
>Case and point - Christian music is appealing because it's Christian - not >because it makes people shake their butts like secular =
music... You cannot >judge spiritual things by carnal means - see 1st Corinthians chapter 2...
Translated, it doesn't measure up ... I'll take that as a concession....
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>In article <4qvid1$q...@tribune.concentric.net>, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>set a new standard: that music that glorifies Jesus doesn't have to be
>wimpy.
Farner sucked when I used to pass under the shadows of the Grand Trunk
Railroad, half a lifetime ago.
Chuck Fisher
Da Ranger wrote:
>g...@316csi.com (George Hillman) wrote:
[snip]
>>My point again is that #1 CCM is not a good representation of ALL Christian >mu
>sic. Like most secular pop, it reflects what record =
>execs feel they can make >money at more than the taste or needs of the record bu
>ying public...
> Which is generally one and the same. If the stuff isn't saleable, the
>record execs won't make money.
No it isnUt. We have fractured/Balkanized record buying public.
Hardly monolithic. If we are talking about the Christian buying
public, we are talking about a fraction of the total buying public for
the nation. And this Christian market is also Balkanized, as well.
For example: ain't no way I am going to buy anything rap. So DC Talk
may be the Second Coming, but I won't buy it, cause it's rap.
[snip]
> Lightfoot in particular was a balladeer -- and a _very_ competent one, I
>might add. That kind of music doesn't come in and out of style like disco
>or rap (thank God!). If he was making good music today, it would sell.
Show me ANY balladeer selling records today. Lightfoot was part
of what folk music devotees like to call the Great Folk Scare of the
late 60's and the early 70's. Balladeers haven't been able to make
a go of it since. Which is why so many have taken to writing
childrenUs books (Pete Seeger, Tom Paxton, etc.)
[snip]
>>Case and point - Christian music is appealing because it's Christian - not >bec
>ause it makes people shake their butts like secular =
>music... You cannot >judge spiritual things by carnal means - see 1st Corinthian
>s chapter 2...
> Translated, it doesn't measure up ... I'll take that as a concession....
DonUt break your arm patting yourself on the back just yet.
It don't translate. As I said, with the Balkanized music market,
Christian music will appeal to only those who want it and its
message.
If one were to take your argument, that is, *that which sells is
good, that which doesn't, isn't*, to its logical extension,
then you would have to say that Snoop Doggy Dog is
better than Chris Parkening, only the premier classical
guitarist in the world, and a born-again Christian.
Care to make that argument?
To counter your argument, there is one solid argument:
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence or
taste of Americans.
Chuck Fisher
------------
Coming soon - Great Big Stupid World
Rang...@ix.netcom.com
>>
>> >...And there are some rather fine musicians involved with sharing the gospel >through music, as well as some committed Christian=
s involved in the secular >business...Nathan East, a regular with Eric Clapton, and also recently as a >guest on Joe Satriani's late=
st CD, is one example...Kerry Livgren, the guy who >composed "Dust In the Wind" as one of the founding members of Kansas, not to >me=
ntion John Schlitt, Petra's lead singer (who used to be with Head >East)...And let's not forget Mr. Mark Farner, one of my favorite =
all-time >vocalists (formerly of Grand Funk Railroad)...
>>
>>
>want to fill me in?
You're a bit to young to remember. Farner was the "vocalist" (and I use
that term advisedly) for a Flint, MI (if memory serves)-based band called
Grand Funk Railroad, which had several hits in the early '70s. They were,
as I recall, _savaged_ by the musical press of their day for their general
lack of musical competence.
>
>NIKA ICXC
>PCR
Warren.J.Eckels
.net>
Distribution:
Unfortunately, contemporary Christian music does seem bland to
devotees of the various styles (thrash, rap, alternative), and not
just because many such devotees like anti-Christian lyrics.
Can it be claimed that Bach, Mozart and Handel wrote second-rate
music in ther field? Is it not reasonable to ask that artists who
write Christian rock write better music? If they were to innovate
musically, people would seek out the music and hear the message.
Warren Eckels
Schererville, IN
A.J. Nadeau
In article <clcc-29069...@news.pacifier.com>, cl...@pacifier.com
uttered...
>
>set a new standard: that music that glorifies Jesus doesn't have to be
>wimpy.
>
>Walsh are our brother in Jesus now. Anybody know about this?
Joe Walsh??? Cool if true...He one of my favorite "axe-grinders" from
waaayyyy back!
A.J. Nadeau
In article <Pine.SCO.3.91.96062...@delta1.deltanet.com>,
st_a...@deltanet.com uttered...
Why am I not surprised at your musical preferences, Perry...And BTW, Mark
Farner was the lead vocalist and guitarist for Grand Funk Railroad...
In Him,
A.J.
Shaun A. Maher
Perry Robinson <st_a...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>BTW about Promise Keepers, ever wonder where they will be in 1,000 yrs? Dust.
>But the Church will still be here. Why not work for the Church, rather
>for some man made organisation?
Define "Church" - is not PK a "Church" in that sense?
Shaun
Stuart Toepke
4qusfq$e...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4qvoi5$r...@umt.umt.edu> <4r0mr9$b...@tribune.concentric.net> <4r4f1s$e...@nadine.teleport.com>
Organization: Alternative Network Generation
Distribution:
oneiric (one...@teleport.com) wrote:
: Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like if
: they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not being
: facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
: going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
: and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
Yes, I'm 19 and I identified with what Nirvana sang about (I say
"sang" because Curt Corbain, the lead singer, commited suicide and thereby
effectively disbanding Nirvana.
At the very least, men, read the lyrics of the Nirvana CD's. It isn't as
"vulgar" as some punk rock bands, but it will give you an idea what a
great portion of America's youth feels like today.
Or listen to the first two Soundgarden CD's. Their latest one, however,
is lyricly only "painting a fantasy" and probably isn't about anything
personal in the band members lives.
Or Green Day. Although I really don't like Green Day's sound (it sounds
like the drummer can't control his muscle spams) it is nevertheless,
represenative of the basic depravity of our youth in America.
To quote from the Sex Pistols, a punk band from England in the '70's,
"We're so pretty, Oh! so pretty! We're vacant!" Sadly, that sums up what
many young people feel like in America.
If we don't reach out and minister to them, men, we will lose them. Take
my word as someone who's been in the pack in the past.
A Promise Keeper...
Stuart D Toepke
ea...@courtney.altie.org
http://www.altie.org/~eagle
$15/month full internet access! All day long low LD rates! Mega earnings!
http://www.freedomstarr.com/TO2220019.rep
Ron Goers
In article <4qu42a$s...@tribune.concentric.net>,
Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
#>7 different artists and bands (top names in the Christian music
#>industry) provide entertainment at the Harvest Crusades.
#
# In other words, seven different garage bands. Have any of these
bands
#made the crossover? The only person I know of to make the transition
is
#Amy Grant. And when I think of people like Gordon Lightfoot -- used to
#love his work -- when he became a Christian, his music went to hell in
a
#handbasket....
# Why is it that Xian music is an intellectual wasteland? Why do Xian
#musicians have to co-opt popular musical styles like thrash, metal,
rap,
#et al., as opposed to _inventing their own_? Does accepting Jesus into
#one's life rob you of creativity?
#
Oh, Pleeeeeese! You speak from whence you know nothing! Many Christian
bands are cutting-edge in their style and creativity, and top-notch
musically! I think of Jars of Clay, who have taken the music industry
(both Christian AND secular) by storm in the past couple years. You'll
even find their videos on MTV, and hear their music on top rock stations
across the USA. Musicians/producers like Charlie Peacock are brilliant
artists by any measure. If you're deliberately NOT looking for talent,
you'll not find it. On the other hand, if you're open enough to
really explore the world of Christian music, you'll find talent out
there which puts the secular music world to shame.
ron
Debra Milner
On 28 Jun 1996 13:31:21 GMT, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>And as for Gordon Lightfoot going Christian and his music going to pot, I offer
>a counter-example: Cat Stevens. He hasn't been g=
>oing too well since he became >a muslim.
I thought Cat Stevens had become a member of the B'Hai faith....
De Colores,
Debbie Milner
Debra Milner
On 30 Jun 1996 12:28:16 GMT, Rang...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> You're a bit to young to remember. Farner was the "vocalist" (and I use
>that term advisedly) for a Flint, MI (if memory serves)-based band called
As a native of Flint, who, BTW, used to date Mark's cousin, I can
state that your memory serves you well.....
>Grand Funk Railroad, which had several hits in the early '70s. They were,
>as I recall, _savaged_ by the musical press of their day for their general
>lack of musical competence.
But, I liked them then and still do....what can I say?
Did you say that Mark Farner has a Christian album out?
De Colores,
Debbie Milner
oneiric
Stuart Toepke wrote:
>Yes, I'm 19 and I identified with what Nirvana sang about (I say
>"sang" because Curt Corbain, the lead singer, commited suicide and thereby
>effectively disbanding Nirvana.
>
>At the very least, men, read the lyrics of the Nirvana CD's. It isn't as
>"vulgar" as some punk rock bands, but it will give you an idea what a
>great portion of America's youth feels like today.
>
>Or listen to the first two Soundgarden CD's. Their latest one, however,
>is lyricly only "painting a fantasy" and probably isn't about anything
>personal in the band members lives.
>
>Or Green Day. Although I really don't like Green Day's sound (it sounds
>like the drummer can't control his muscle spams) it is nevertheless,
>represenative of the basic depravity of our youth in America.
>
>To quote from the Sex Pistols, a punk band from England in the '70's,
>"We're so pretty, Oh! so pretty! We're vacant!" Sadly, that sums up what
>many young people feel like in America.
>
>If we don't reach out and minister to them, men, we will lose them. Take
>my word as someone who's been in the pack in the past.
>
>
>A Promise Keeper...
>
>Stuart D Toepke
>ea...@courtney.altie.org
>http://www.altie.org/~eagle
Do whatever it is God gives you to do, but prepare yourself. You're going to
be a part of a radically different church in the future, not to be confused
with the pop-Christian organizations created by entrepreneurial Christianity.
Read anything you can find by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Carl Hollomon
oneiric wrote:
>
> Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like if
> they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not being
> facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
> going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
> and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
>
Don't take it as a given that Nirvana, et. al. IS "pop culture". The
popularity they had/have is the popularity of moments, not decades; the
popularity of bored teenagers connecting with people who seem as lonely
and confused as they are. There is nothing to learn there, and little to
fear. Don't play ball on their field; it only validates that which
has no validity.
Most teenage scum-wanna-be's wearing a Black Sabbath tee-shirt wouldn't
know Satan if he walked up and bit them on the leg. Responsible adults
hate it, so some teenagers who don't expect to ever join the ranks of
"responsible adults" promote things like that as a way of saying "it
doesn't look like I'm gonna make it -- don't leave me here alone."
Take it from someone who's seen this up close.
Carl
Carl Hollomon
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Christian rock stinks
because it's rock; Christian "rockers" set out to invade anothers
territory with their message. Christian Country (or gospel as it's
usually called) stinks because it's country, and country stinks. Good
lyrics with rotten music equals rotten music. The best Christian
"modern" music I've heard has been that of the Maranatha! Promise Band
with PK.
Mozart, BTW, remains the greatest composer in history, followed by J.S.
Bach.
Russ Leonard
mir...@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes) wrote:
>one...@teleport.com (oneiric) wrote:
>>Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like if
>>they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not being
>>facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
>>going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
>>and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
Hey what about Greenday, Offspring, and Bad Religion? ;) I'm not sure what the
pop-Christian church is. I missed the rest of the thread. But don't assume
that Christians don't listen to the current culture. Come on how else can we
make the Gospel relevant?
Russ Leonard Rio Linda,CA leon...@calweb.com
Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A: The Preacher who preaches to the choir!
oneiric
Carl Hollomon wrote:
>oneiric wrote:
>>
>> Old and irrelevent. Christians should be listening to Nirvana and the like
>>if they want to address what's going on in the culture right now. I'm not
>>being facetious. The pop-Christian church doesn't have a clue about what's
>>going on in this post-Christian culture. We've got to get out of the ghetto
>> and face the world, otherwise we're useless.
>>
>
> Don't take it as a given that Nirvana, et. al. IS "pop culture". The
>popularity they had/have is the popularity of moments, not decades; the
>popularity of bored teenagers connecting with people who seem as lonely
>and confused as they are.
Being lonely and confused is an indictment against the world they live in,
which is the world we are forfeiting in our preoccupations with the
construction of our own homogenized ghetto. Remember the Warsaw ghetto.
>There is nothing to learn there, and little to
>fear. Don't play ball on their field; it only validates that which
>has no validity.
Nothing to learn, nothing to fear. But a lot of people to hang with and tell
about Jesus.
>Most teenage scum-wanna-be's wearing a Black Sabbath tee-shirt wouldn't
>know Satan if he walked up and bit them on the leg.
That's not an indictment either. The folks you're referring to are pretty
ignorant of spiritual things. The question is why.
>Responsible adults hate it, so some teenagers who don't expect to ever join
>the ranks of "responsible adults" promote things like that as a way of
>saying "it doesn't look like I'm gonna make it -- don't leave me here
>alone."
Are they speaking for others, or are they just making it up? If they are
articulating to hearts of those who support them, then shouldn't we be
listening and responding.
>Take it from someone who's seen this up close.
>
>Carl
Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.
Oneiric
"Ideology breeds contempt"
one...@teleport.com
2
по
Ricardo Hector Gonzales
oneiric
In article <4rch6n$a...@nadine.teleport.com>,
I need to add something. I was being facetious when I repeated the line,
"Nothing to learn". What Christians have to learn about suffering - their own
or other's - is what the Bible refers to as "the fellowship of Christ's
suffering". Isn't that the nature of the preisthood of the believer, to
extend the ministry of the Paraclete - to come alongside and comfort, affirm,
advocate on behalf of? That's something to deep too learn. "The wind blows
where it will..."
Oneiric
"Ideology breeds contempt"
one...@teleport.com
по
Stuart Toepke
oneiric (one...@teleport.com) wrote:
: Do whatever it is God gives you to do, but prepare yourself. You're going to
: with the pop-Christian organizations created by entrepreneurial Christianity.
: Read anything you can find by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
I'll check out Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writtings, but I'm afraid I don't
follow what you're warning against. Are you refering to the apostate
churches that are going to appear near the ending of this age?
--
Stuart D Toepke
ea...@courtney.altie.org
http://www.altie.org/~eagle
$15/month full internet access! All day long low LD rates! Mega earnings!
http://www.freedomstarr.com/TO2220019.rep
Phil Webb
Stuart Toepke was chattering on about <4r99rh$e...@news.corpcomm.net> on 1
Jul 1996 19:44:49 GMT so I took scribe in hand and wrote this:
>If we don't reach out and minister to them, men, we will lose them. Take
>my word as someone who's been in the pack in the past.
Too totally true. The church at large needs to pull its collective head
out of the sand and minsiter relevantly to the culture around it.
Francis Schaeffer and Os Guiness should be required reading for anyone
even dreaming about thinking about getting involved in ministry,
especially ministry to young people (below say 30-35).
>A Promise Keeper...
"...Its not the promises we make its the ones that we keep..."
from focused's BOW CD.
>Stuart D Toepke
>ea...@courtney.altie.org
>http://www.altie.org/~eagle
>
>$15/month full internet access! All day long low LD rates! Mega
earnings!
>http://www.freedomstarr.com/TO2220019.rep
--
Grace and Peace
Phil Webb
SysOp The Struggle
CalvaryNet Hub
One_Net Node
Agape Family Network Node
phil...@cyberhighway.net
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~philwebb/struggle
Douglas Gilliland
frank dever wrote:
> The reason for the lack of energy: most people who are truly
> zealous in pursuing the Lord are so exhausted by the life they were
> recently engaged in, that they can't spare any. They are
> ex-alcoholics, ex-addicts, ex-cons, ex-theives, ex-buttheads, ex...
> etc.. and are spending all their time trying to get themselves back
> into life.
What's an ex-butthead? Maybe I have found my past calling (and a bit of my
present one too).
Nashpresby
In article <31D95C...@richnet.net>, Carl Hollomon
<holl...@richnet.net> writes:
>
> Don't take it as a given that Nirvana, et. al. IS "pop culture". The
>popularity they had/have is the popularity of moments, not decades; the
>popularity of bored teenagers connecting with people who seem as lonely
>and confused as they are. There is nothing to learn there, and little to
>fear. Don't play ball on their field; it only validates that which
>has no validity.
"People who seem as lonely and confused as they are" IS "pop culture".
As Christians, this is the world we MUST witness to. We don't listen to
this to agree to it, we listen to witness to it. A lot of Christian youth
listen to this because they don't see anything addressing these issues in
Christian music.
>Most teenage scum-wanna-be's wearing a Black Sabbath tee-shirt wouldn't
>know Satan if he walked up and bit them on the leg.
These teens listen because satan DID "walk up and bite them on the leg",
whether it was growing up in a "good", but alcoholic family, or not
getting a Christian answer to personal tragedy, or whatever.
They know satan all too well, or they wouldn't be into that music.
>Carl
>
>
David Trotz jr
Dear Oneiric,
great reply. I agree whole heartily.
forgive me for not responding earlier. I'm going out to buy the book
today. I have been away spying out the land in San Francisco area for two
weeks.
will be in touch tommorow. reading each chapter on line would be great
with further discussion in this newsgroup.
may God richly Bless you today.
I love you in Jesus
In His Sevice....Joe
Bernie Wojcik
I still have a bunch of books I must sell, check out my web page or send e-mail for the
latest list.
----------------------------------------------------------------
- Bernie Wojcik (Ephesians 2:8-10) - woj...@freenet.msp.mn.us -
> Used Christian books for sale: http://members.aol.com/woj1611/
> Looking for some extra money? http://www.freedomstarr.com/WO4253020.rep
----------------------------------------------------------------