hurting the faith
.,@compuserve.com
i am an ex-member of the icoc(indpls,in) and i just wanted to say that in many ways i am greatful to the icoc for reaching out
to me and teaching me how to love god and be a disciple of christ,i agree that there have been abuses of authority within the
church and i also agree that they are off base scripturally in a couple of very important issues but i must also say that many of
the posts i,ve seen on this and other usenet grps has been anything but christlike and is doing much harm to many people and
is not constructive(ie icoc jokes home page that mocks our lords crucifixion) this from a supposed christian,my suggestion to all
involved is that if you feel the icoc is doing so much harm what are you doing thats constructive,in order to share the good news
of the gospel, at least the icoc is sharing their faith,teaching alot of good things,yes i left the icoc because i could not support
their teachings any longer,it's been a very difficult time but i have not left the lord. again i would say as the scriptures do that if
this movement is not of god it will fail,if it is it will continue to grow and nothing will stop it, i still consider them my brothers and
sister's in christ,who are doing many good things and i pray that god will bring about the needed changes within the icoc,perhaps
the i can rejoin them in the many positive things they are doing,but again let's be more christ centered on these pages.
thank you jesus for the family you have given me,thank you for using the icoc to teach me about your word,thanks for the good
of the icoc
peace in christ
alan r
Catherine Hampton
Hi, Alan, and welcome to a.r.c.b-c. :)
I agree there have been some rude posts, on both sides. Most of the
former members here don't have as positive a view of the ICOC as
you do, some of them for good reasons, at least in my opinion. But
the ICOC is a big organization, has been around at least since 1979,
and it stands to reason that people will have had different
experiences in it.
When you get a group of people together who went through a difficult
time, you'll often get "inappropriate" jokes and a lot of outright
rage. Perhaps it would be better in some ways if this were expressed
in a support group than here. But some people here have had nowhere
else to talk. I'm a veteran of Alanon (both parents are alcoholics)
and some other support groups, and most of what I've seen here that
seems to bother you so much looks quite familiar to me.
Please stick around, listen, talk, post serious stuff, post funny
stuff, whatever. ;>
Catherine
SpeakerForTheDead
For me at least, membership in the Icoc has made it nearly impossible to
believe in christianity. When I joined, I knew very little about the
bible, though I had attended a baptist church until I was 14 (I joined
the ICoC 4 years later). So most of my understanding of christianity has
been framed in the context of the ICC. And even though I am no longer a
member, haven't been for over a year, there's a difference between
separating oneself from a hostile environment, and deconstructing deeply
ingrained beliefs.
It's a loss I feel deeply. I come from an african american family with
very deep religious traditions; traditions I can no longer take part in
because I disagree very strongly with their foundation (the bible). A
disagreement born, in part, of my experience with the ICC. So in this
regard, membership in the ICC has definitely hurt (more like decimated) my
faith. For me, christianity was an all-or-nothing thing; mainstream
protestant groups never interested me, I'd find myself wondering, "Why
would anybody get out of bed early on a sunday for this?" I'm sure I'm
not the only person who has ever felt this way (which is no sleight against
anyone else religious beliefs, just an honest expression of my own).
karen liu
On 6 Aug 1996, it was written:
[snipped, because my server will not allow me to reply if there is a
certain amount of text already in the post]
> involved is that if you feel the icoc is doing so much harm what are you doing thats constructive,in order to share the good news
> of the gospel, at least the icoc is sharing their faith,teaching alot of good things,yes i left the icoc because i could not support
> their teachings any longer,it's been a very difficult time but i have not left the lord. again i would say as the scriptures do that if
> this movement is not of god it will fail,if it is it will continue to grow and nothing will stop it, i still consider them my brothers and
> sister's in christ,who are doing many good things and i pray that god will bring about the needed changes within the icoc,perhaps
> the i can rejoin them in the many positive things they are doing,but again let's be more christ centered on these pages.
> thank you jesus for the family you have given me,thank you for using the icoc to teach me about your word,thanks for the good
> of the icoc
>
> peace in christ
>
> alan r
>
i just wanted to say thank you alan, for that compassionate letter...and
that yes, if it is not a movement of God, God will take care of it since
he is the one in control (Acts 5 somewhere! my bible is in my room so i
can't grab it for the right verses rigth now, sorry!) and if it is a
movement of God, God will make it grow and not make it stop at all
i am sorry to hear that you have left the church, and it may help if you
email me the problems you have had with it and maybe we can deal with them
and find a solution to these problems...often, and not in all cases mind
you, that a lot of problems could have been resolved only if the person
voiced them and took the time to deal with them and find the
solution..then they wouldn't have left in the first place
again i thank you for understanding alan
karen
Mjaybird7
"thank you for using the icoc to teach me about your word,thanks for the
good
of the icoc"
Dear fellow ex-member:
I appreciate your heart for those in the ICOC/ but I do not think it is
the people themselves that those here on the newsgroup are attacking: Its
the system. This is not a sytem that is "helping" people spiritually but
causing much harm/ masked by Phariseeism. This is a sytem that needs
confronted. Jesus confronted the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law :
Matt 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you hypocrites.
You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he
becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."
Matt 23:13" You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves
do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
Matt 23: 23 " You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill, and cummin.
But you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice,
mercy and faithfulness."
Matt 23: 28 " In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as
rightous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
vs. 33 "You snakes! You broad of vipers! How will you escape being
condemned to hell?"
The ICOC needs confronted in the same way Jesus confronted Pharisees and
Teachers of the Law: Those who thought they were above reproach and based
their rightousness on what they did: on not on Christ.
Galatians 2:21 " I do not set aside the grace of God, for if rightousness
could be attained through the law, Christ died for nothing."
Also see Luke 18:9- talking about the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
praying to God.
" For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled"
I love the people too/ but I cannot encourage or justify their "system"
which pulls people away from God rather than leading them into his arms.
A few years ago I was attacked by a man who entered my home (raped). But
I tell you, nothing, including that experience compares the the "Spiritual
Rape" I experienced while in the ICOC for six years.
So I say to myself often:
" It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then and do
not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Gal 5:1
IN the same way I approach the LDS Church (Mormon) ( I grew up mormon) I
used to sympathize with them and their so called "persecution" they
received. But no more. They too enslave people to a lie. And I say flee
it like the plague.
Many people, like yourself, who are ex-members "walkaways" and "Kick-outs"
have a right to be heard and to proclaim the truth about their
experiences.
And what about how they "bash" and "persecute" anyone outside the
church?
Mjaybird7
oops!
R.L. Measures
In article <4u8jke$e...@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>, <.,@compuserve.com>
wrote:
> i am an ex-member of the icoc(indpls,in) and i just wanted to say that
in many ways i am greatful to the icoc for reaching out
> to me and teaching me how to love god and be a disciple of christ,i
agree that there have been abuses of authority within the
> church and i also agree that they are off base scripturally in a couple
of very important issues
If they are scirpturally off base, how can they teach you to love God.
They teach deception of others. Christ taught that we should love
others. Does love=deception?
--Rich--
805-386-3734
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <Pine.SUN.3.94.960808...@tuzo.erin>, karen liu <e0fk...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>i just wanted to say thank you alan, for that compassionate letter...and
>that yes, if it is not a movement of God, God will take care of it since
>he is the one in control (Acts 5 somewhere! my bible is in my room so i
>can't grab it for the right verses rigth now, sorry!) and if it is a
>movement of God, God will make it grow and not make it stop at all
This is rather naive. Was Gamaliel a prophet of God?
Do numbers = God's approval? Yes or no? Why or why
not?
>i am sorry to hear that you have left the church, and it may help if you
>email me the problems you have had with it and maybe we can deal with them
>and find a solution to these problems...often, and not in all cases mind
>you, that a lot of problems could have been resolved only if the person
>voiced them and took the time to deal with them and find the
>solution..then they wouldn't have left in the first place
>again i thank you for understanding alan
>karen
>
Been there, done that....
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
R. L. Measures
In article <4ucfrn$r...@netnews.upenn.edu>, cla...@blue.seas.upenn.edu
(SpeakerForTheDead) wrote:
> For me at least, membership in the Icoc has made it nearly impossible to
> believe in christianity.
The person who started the faith taught people to' judge not'. The ICoC
teaches people to judge. The person who started the faith said "...I am
the truth...". The ICoC teaches people to deceive.
Despite its stentorian claims, the ICoC hardly seems to Christian by any
stretch of the imagination. The window dressing is similar, but the
teachings are upside down, Clayton. IMO, it is not possible to equate
the teachings of Prophet McKean with the teachings of the person who
started the faith.
The four gospels warn that this sort of thing will eventually take place.
--Rich-- (805) 386 3734
Chris Garland
karen liu <e0fk...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>On 6 Aug 1996, it was written:
>
>[snipped, because my server will not allow me to reply if there is a
>certain amount of text already in the post]
>
>> involved is that if you feel the icoc is doing so much harm what are you doing thats constructive,in order to share the good news
>> of the gospel, at least the icoc is sharing their faith,teaching alot of good things,yes i left the icoc because i could not support
>> their teachings any longer,it's been a very difficult time but i have not left the lord. again i would say as the scriptures do that if
>> this movement is not of god it will fail,if it is it will continue to grow and nothing will stop it, i still consider them my brothers and
>> sister's in christ,who are doing many good things and i pray that god will bring about the needed changes within the icoc,perhaps
>> the i can rejoin them in the many positive things they are doing,but again let's be more christ centered on these pages.
>> of the icoc
>>
>>
>> alan r
>>
>that yes, if it is not a movement of God, God will take care of it since
>he is the one in control (Acts 5 somewhere! my bible is in my room so i
>can't grab it for the right verses rigth now, sorry!) and if it is a
>movement of God, God will make it grow and not make it stop at all
>email me the problems you have had with it and maybe we can deal with them
>and find a solution to these problems...often, and not in all cases mind
>you, that a lot of problems could have been resolved only if the person
>voiced them and took the time to deal with them and find the
>solution..then they wouldn't have left in the first place
>again i thank you for understanding alan
>karen
<Sigh>. Karen, a couple thoughts. There are plenty of *movements* on
earth that are prospering quite well; even better than the ICC, yet
they are not of Christ. Look at Islam, which is the fastest growing
religion on the planet. There is no evidence that God dries up *every*
movement that claims to be His but isn't. It is dangerous to look for
signs from God; you could be mislead. Instead, I suggest you "test the
spirits" as per the scriptures.
Secondly, while I appreciate your heart, most of us on this newsgroup who
are former members have done everything possible to rectify the various
situations we were in. Some of us were thrown out for voicing our
opinion. Others of us (myself) kept running into brick walls, and were
called all kinds of names (wrongly) because we were speaking our
opinions, even in a respectful way. You see, your church doesn't accept
criticisim -- even corrective criticism. When someone sees something
wrong, and voices their concern over it, they are usually made to feel
that they are evil. The scenario usually goes that they are called first
divisive, then prideful, then whatever other nasty name insecure leaders
can throw at them. Most of our concerns are real, but the tables are
turned on us, rather than listening to what we have to say. This is
wrong. And it is not a rare occurance; it happense to people from all
over the globe (hence, this newsgroup).
Karen, you appear to have a wonderful heart. It pains me to think about
the disappointment you will feel one day when you start to see what kind
of church you really joined.
RICK & SARAH BAUER
karen liu <e0fk...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> you, that a lot of problems could have been resolved only if the person
> voiced them and took the time to deal with them and find the
> solution..then they wouldn't have left in the first place
Karen,
This is exactly what so many former members have tried to do. I
went to my discipler, to her discipler, and even to the evangelist
of the Boston church. I went to anyone and everyone I could
think of to try and get help for the problems I wanted resolved,
but there was no help to be found.
Leaders within the ICC are unwilling to deal with issues that hit
to close to home. If you make too many waves, you are history.
What's one to do? When solutions don't occur what alternative
does one have?
Sarah
Clinton Williams
>This is exactly what so many former members have tried to do. I
>went to my discipler, to her discipler, and even to the evangelist
>of the Boston church. I went to anyone and everyone I could
>think of to try and get help for the problems I wanted resolved,
>but there was no help to be found.
If the ideas and people are important enough, then you go through it. You
talk to the right people and you pray and things don't get thrown out. I am
reading Nelson Mandela's book and he went through hell to change his South
Africa. He didn't run away and neither will I. Build your networks of
motivated people and change them. There were plenty of storys how Kip would
go into a strongly structured churches and change them from the inside. Maybe
you should imitate leaders a bit better. It doesn't mean walk with a limp
etc.
>Leaders within the ICC are unwilling to deal with issues that hit
>to close to home. If you make too many waves, you are history.
I have challenged leaders on things that they assumed were without question,
asked most of the questions that can be asked and I was not transported to
any concentration camp. Hell, I changed quite a few things. The idea is to
change people's paradigms not to win arguments - a subtle difference.
>What's one to do? When solutions don't occur what alternative
>does one have?
Maybe I am different! After all, I work for many companys finding solutions
for their problems but I have never told a large company that because of a
small problem that they would have to close down the firm.Also I think that
you can't make significant changes from afar.
>Sarah
>
>
Lots of Love,
Clint.
RICK & SARAH BAUER
clin...@iconz.co.nz (Clinton Williams) wrote:
>
> If the ideas and people are important enough, then you go through it. You
> talk to the right people and you pray and things don't get thrown out.
That was exactly how I felt. I talked to the "right people, and (I)
prayed," but things *DID* get "thrown out." It's not that simple.
Clint, I've led churches in the movement. I've been a Woman's
Counselor. I've been at the top levels of leadership. I'm not
speaking from ignorance.
> I am
> reading Nelson Mandela's book and he went through hell to change his South
> Africa. He didn't run away and neither will I.
I have gone through "hell" to try and affect change within the ICC.
I did not "run away." I was cut off, exiled, put into a form of
prison. This is what has happened to many top leaders who have
tried to affect change from within the ICC. Have you spoken to
any of them to understand their perspective?
> Build your networks of
> motivated people and change them.
This is considered "devisive" within the Kingdom. Have you tried
it? If you see a serious problem within the doctrinal teachings
and ethical practices of the ICC, and communicate this to others,
you will be dealt with strongly. I have been rebuked when I
shared questions and concerns with others.
There are many other former members who have not been able to do
what you are claiming to be so easy. Have the tens of thousands
who have left the ICC just blown it? Are they all hard hearted,
with bad attitudes, unwilling to affect change from within?
> There were plenty of storys how Kip would
> go into a strongly structured churches and change them from the inside. Maybe
> you should imitate leaders a bit better. It doesn't mean walk with a limp
> etc.
Is Kip the standard?
I spent 16 years imitating very well, thank you very much.
BTW, where does the Bible teach that one must imitate their leaders?
> >Leaders within the ICC are unwilling to deal with issues that hit
> >to close to home. If you make too many waves, you are history.
>
> I have challenged leaders on things that they assumed were without question,
> asked most of the questions that can be asked and I was not transported to
> any concentration camp. Hell, I changed quite a few things. The idea is to
> change people's paradigms not to win arguments - a subtle difference.
Have you challenged Kip McKean? Have you told Al Baird you believe
there are unscriptural things being taught in the ICC?
Have you confronted Gordon Ferguson, or Randy McKean? Have you asked
to be heard by Doug Arthur, Steve Johnson, or any of the other World
Sector Leaders?
How high up in leadership have you questioned? How serious are the
issues that you've brought to their attention? Who has heard you,
and what have they changed due to your influence? I'm really eager
to know.
Would you like more details about our communication with the leadership
of the ICC? We were not the average member having a complaint about
being told what to do with our time, or how to spend our money.
We were leaders that were discipled by Kip McKean while he was in
Boston. Rick was asked to be one of the scholars of the movement.
Kip asked him to train the Evangelist in understanding Greek
and Hebrew. To help those being sent out into the ministry to be
fully trained in digging deeper into scripture and passing that
understanding along to others.
When Rick challenged some teachings and practices, he was labeled
rebellious and critical. When you go high enough and deep enough,
you will run into trouble.
There are other Elders and Evangelists who have also left the ICC,
trying to change things from within. We were not alone.
> >What's one to do? When solutions don't occur what alternative
> >does one have?
>
> Maybe I am different! After all, I work for many companys finding solutions
> for their problems but I have never told a large company that because of a
> small problem that they would have to close down the firm.Also I think that
> you can't make significant changes from afar.
You see Clint, the problems are not "small." Are there not companies
that you've worked with or know of that have had to shut their doors
due to *large* problems? How about Chapter 11 companies? Some times
a business needs to be built back up from the foundation, and simply
started again from scratch. Have you never seen that in your career?
If there are large enough problems, more drastic measures will need
to be taken.
I was part of the movement for over 16 years. I was in the thick of
it, at the highest levels of leadership. I know how the company runs,
and it has some large problems. I did not "run away" from these
problems. It was not by intention to try and change things from
"afar."
Was it Nelson Mandela's intention to be put into prison? Or did his
fight for justice cause others to put him there?
Sarah
Scott W. Schreiber
clin...@iconz.co.nz (Clinton Williams) wrote:
>Maybe you should imitate leaders a bit better.
Aren't you the one who posted about being thrown down on teh ground,
and your discipler throwing his drink in your face, making a 20 minute
disertation on what he hates about you?
I can't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was you. You used to
sign "Radical Love" didn't you.
IF it was you, do you now immitate those leaders???
I HOPE not!
EOshiro
Rich writes:
>The person who started the faith taught people to
>' judge not'. The ICoC teaches people to judge.
What exactly do you mean by judging? For some people this means not being
able to tell anyone else when they're screwing up. Well guess what, Paul
told entire churches when they were doing things wrong. Read what he says
in 1 Cor. 5:12. I don't using the Bible as a standard counts as
"judging." Like, "Here's what the Bible says a Christian is..." and
"Here's what the Bible says sin is..." Too often those who choose to take
a stand are seen as judgemental. And Jesus himself says, "If your brother
sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." (Luke 17:3)
>The person who started the faith said "...I am
>the truth...". The ICoC teaches people to deceive.
Give me an example. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall
ever being told, "Here's an unbiblical teaching we have, now go out and
deceive others."
Chris G. writes:
>Karen, you appear to have a wonderful heart. It pains me to think about
>the disappointment you will feel one day when you start to see what kind
>of church you really joined.
Of course you realize that you're doing everything you can to bring about
that pain. Must not hurt that much, then.
SpeakerForTheDead
Clinton Williams (clin...@iconz.co.nz) wrote:
: If the ideas and people are important enough, then you go through it. You
: motivated people and change them. There were plenty of storys how Kip would
: go into a strongly structured churches and change them from the inside. Maybe
: you should imitate leaders a bit better. It doesn't mean walk with a limp
: etc.
Nelson mandela was imprisoned for 25+ years; before that, his
involvement with the then-banned ANC's military wing was one of the major
allegations against him at the time. Like so many totalitarian systems
(the ICC included) South Africa changed it's system mostly because of the
international pressure put on them; under apartheid it still enjoyed the
highest standard of living on the continent. In other words, (no offense)
this is a pretty bad analogy.
As to changes, just how would you suggest getting them
implemented? Once you're in the church for more than a few months, you
begin to adopt the mentality that your leader's interpretation of the
bible is what the bible says, that this "fired up church" is the only
movement of god, and oh yeah, dont forget to invite at least 5 people
today, report the anticipated visitor stats to your BT leader, order one
of the sister's out on a date for the weekend, organize your gossip for
the leader's meeting, etc. Some other problems with changing the ICC
from the bottom is that authority flows in the other direction; top to
bottom. Unless you can convince someone higher up in the chain that your
idea is correct (and no one higher up than him disagrees), it wont get
past the 2 or more on 1 gang-bang discipling session the immediate leader
calls should you press your case. The ICC also has a very powerful
weapon at it's disposal; if there's anything sinful going on in your
life, then your ideas (if they go against ICC status quo) are the result
of this sin, so when you get the sin out, you'll see it the ICC way.
Of course, since everyone sins, this leads to an ICC practice; whenever a
member is making waves, the problem is their own sin. I even had my
discipler tell me once something to the effect of, "If you baptize one
person this month, you can take sister X out on a date as many times as
you want". Changing the ICC from within will not work because the ICC is
right. I dont even know how you would explain it to a member; if this is
god's church, and it's the only one following the bible (which is what
ICC members believe), then there aren't likely any mistakes (hence even
when confronted with evidence, a lot of ICCers will disregard wholesale
anything proceeding from the mouth of a former/non-member) and any
mistakes that are made will be taken care of.
: I have challenged leaders on things that they assumed were without question,
: asked most of the questions that can be asked and I was not transported to
: any concentration camp. Hell, I changed quite a few things. The idea is to
: change people's paradigms not to win arguments - a subtle difference.
What specifically, are some of these things you challenged a
leader on and saw changed? I've seen leader's challenged who took the
challenge humbly and changed; usually it was on an issue that didn't
involve a church practice, but rather a personal attribute. This is
something I see as inconsistent in the ICC; if, based on my own study of
the bible I can conclude that a personal attribute of a leader needs
changing, inform him/her, and he/she respond accordingly, then why can't
that be done with church practices? All the slickness in recruitment;
the 2 or more on 1 disguised intro-sessions; the unreal pressure to
produce an increase in membership, at all costs, the hidden costs of
membership (i.e., while I was a member, during the so-called "counting
the cost" study, whoever was leading the study would look at the
side-kick/yes-man who was sitting in and say that he'd die for him and
expected the same. Of course, we weren't told to let the prospective
convert know that this eternal devotion was contingent upon his/her
active,continual membership in the ICC).
There are plenty of questionable practices someone such as
yourself should have no problem changing. How about all the events where
the church's position is obscured? i.e., the immunization drives (the
evangelist here said explicitly that the main purpose of hope's
immunization drives was to get people to join the church), the fake
invitation to a non-denominational bt (when in reality it's neither
informal nor non-denominational), the campaigns where everyone in the
church is following an explicit schedule/quota system for "invites", and
any of the other shady dealings that the ICC requires of it's members.
You start touching the church's bread and butter, numbers, then you'll
probably find the leader's a lot less congenial.
ChrisGarland
eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) wrote:
>Rich writes:
>
>>The person who started the faith taught people to
>>' judge not'. The ICoC teaches people to judge.
>
>What exactly do you mean by judging? For some people this means not being
>able to tell anyone else when they're screwing up. Well guess what, Paul
>told entire churches when they were doing things wrong. Read what he says
>in 1 Cor. 5:12. I don't using the Bible as a standard counts as
>"judging." Like, "Here's what the Bible says a Christian is..." and
>"Here's what the Bible says sin is..." Too often those who choose to take
>a stand are seen as judgemental. And Jesus himself says, "If your brother
>sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." (Luke 17:3)
You seem to have forgotten verse 4, in which we see that Jesus is
speaking about your brother sinning against YOU, not sinning in general.
Big difference. You've taken it out of context and changed the meaning.
>>The person who started the faith said "...I am
>>the truth...". The ICoC teaches people to deceive.
>
>Give me an example. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall
>ever being told, "Here's an unbiblical teaching we have, now go out and
>deceive others."
>
>Chris G. writes:
>
>>Karen, you appear to have a wonderful heart. It pains me to think about
>>the disappointment you will feel one day when you start to see what kind
>>of church you really joined.
>
>Of course you realize that you're doing everything you can to bring about
>that pain. Must not hurt that much, then.
I am not to blame that Karen is in a cult. I am not to blame for the pain
she will endure when she leaves. By helping her see the truth sooner,
rather than later, her pain is lessened.
Clinton Williams
Sarah wrote,
>Clint, I've led churches in the movement. I've been a Woman's
>Counselor. I've been at the top levels of leadership. I'm not
>speaking from ignorance.
I am very sorry. Sometimes I am arrogant in the manner in which I speak. I am
sure that you know many things.
>I have gone through "hell" to try and affect change within the ICC.
>I did not "run away." I was cut off, exiled, put into a form of
>prison. This is what has happened to many top leaders who have
>tried to affect change from within the ICC. Have you spoken to
>any of them to understand their perspective?
I have read many accounts of their trying to change things and it seems to me
that the common theme is that they are trying to stop things, people. From
another person's perspective, it seems more like sabotage.
>
>> Build your networks of
>> motivated people and change them.
>
>This is considered "devisive" within the Kingdom. Have you tried
>it? If you see a serious problem within the doctrinal teachings
>and ethical practices of the ICC, and communicate this to others,
>you will be dealt with strongly. I have been rebuked when I
>shared questions and concerns with others.
It depends on who you are talking to. Talking to people with no positive
action would be in my eyes to be devisive. Telling people that you have
repented of the item and are helping others with it shows people that you are
not just being rebellious. I have noted comments also which just bring the
"enemy" down such as that he is basically psychotic.
>
>There are many other former members who have not been able to do
>what you are claiming to be so easy. Have the tens of thousands
>who have left the ICC just blown it? Are they all hard hearted,
>with bad attitudes, unwilling to affect change from within?
No! I never said that it is easy. It ripped my heart apart sometime to go
against leaders with set paradigms. I have been threatened with loss of
leadership and with being kicked out of the church on many occasions. True,
it has never actually come to that point but I beleive in my leaders and I
have no ambition to take them out, only challenge the sin and change their
minds.
>Is Kip the standard?
>
>I spent 16 years imitating very well, thank you very much.
>
>BTW, where does the Bible teach that one must imitate their leaders?
"Must"? I imitate the good in all people. Even some of the most ardent
opposition have given me great insights. The question though is why do you
follow leaders? Why are they leaders in the first place? Is it not because
they hold qualities that are important to us?
>Have you challenged Kip McKean? Have you told Al Baird you believe
>there are unscriptural things being taught in the ICC?
>Have you confronted Gordon Ferguson, or Randy McKean? Have you asked
>to be heard by Doug Arthur, Steve Johnson, or any of the other World
>Sector Leaders?
>
>How high up in leadership have you questioned? How serious are the
>issues that you've brought to their attention? Who has heard you,
>and what have they changed due to your influence? I'm really eager
>to know.
These paragraphs bring up so many thoughts and questions! The main problem
with going to leaders with problems is that virtually all of my problems have
been solved. Some of them affected me so much that when leaders informed me
that changes had taken place, I wept with joy.
One "problem" is that the leaders are careful with money so that we don't get
too many people visiting us down here in New Zealand. I have talked to Doug
Arthur for example on many heavy things but he only gave honest and
thoughtful answers. Unusual in the fact that I can normally insult everybody
and I don't even try to that often.
>
>Would you like more details about our communication with the leadership
>of the ICC? We were not the average member having a complaint about
>being told what to do with our time, or how to spend our money.
I would love to hear more!
>You see Clint, the problems are not "small." Are there not companies
>that you've worked with or know of that have had to shut their doors
>due to *large* problems? How about Chapter 11 companies? Some times
>a business needs to be built back up from the foundation, and simply
>started again from scratch. Have you never seen that in your career?
>If there are large enough problems, more drastic measures will need
>to be taken.
Sorry, most of the problems that people have shown me were small ones. I
would love to hear about some major problems! There are a lot of Christians
who are excited to make the church even better! Some problems that were
evident and important to others were:
a) Giving to the poor. We were not giving enough and leadership admonished
us for it. I refuted this in saying we were not inspired by them to give and
pleaded for a long time for a food bank. This was set up!
b) "Advice = permission or command." I showed over this again and again to
leaders and refuted their scriptures by explaining that King david's subjects
gave advice but would never have ordered the king about. This obviously
caused conflicts and many of the threats against me. I have not heard this
idea used for a long time. All of the leaders I know acknowlege that advice
is advice. We still will not let sin get away but we give the freedom to
think.
c) "You must obey your leaders without question." I went against what I
thought was the wrong thing to do many times. Sometimes I realized that I had
chosen badly. I would refuse and many times surprise the person by getting
advice from someone else straight away. The leader normally ended up shocked
or inspired to change. There are some leaders who can sometimes be
overbearing but all now inspire more than command.
There were others and we fought and won. In leadership meetings, my
evangelist commented on times when he fought for something and no-one at all
would listen to him - wife, discipler, friends, church. He related his
frustration at not being able to do what was right. He prayed for it over a
long period and things changed.
>
>I was part of the movement for over 16 years. I was in the thick of
>it, at the highest levels of leadership. I know how the company runs,
>and it has some large problems. I did not "run away" from these
>problems. It was not by intention to try and change things from
>"afar."
Look I want to say again that I apologize for my arrogant outbursts. Please
be patient with me. Many Christians read your storys and are inspired by
them. We do pick up from where many of you ended your battles but you refuse
to beleive that we exist and move things to change. If we fight for what is
right, for what God showed us in his book, what do we have to fear.
Psalm 27:1-3
>
>Was it Nelson Mandela's intention to be put into prison? Or did his
>fight for justice cause others to put him there?
Both can be means to an end. His rallys would phone the police so that they
would be able to arrest them with little fuss. What he was challenged on very
early on was his fear of prison. When you fear the consequences more than you
love the thing you are fighting for then you start talking and stop acting.
I personally do not fight for the act of fighting. When you care for
something enough, nothing is really sacrifice!
Clint.
ChrisGarland
clin...@iconz.co.nz (Clinton Williams) wrote:
>One "problem" is that the leaders are careful with money so that we don't get
>too many people visiting us down here in New Zealand.
Careful with money? One service, Steve Johnson did a live satellite feed
from Australia to New York just as a gag. This was a VERY expensive gag.
I don't find that to be careful with money; I find it to be a complete
waste of the hard-earned contribution that I gave THINKING it was to
"advance the Kingdom."
nancy
On Aug 12, 1996 01:25:29 in article <Re: hurting the faith>, 'ChrisGarland
such as Knights of Columbus, Elks or whatever. If the only reason they
don't want to build a church building is because they think it's too
expensive, then why are they renting ballrooms at the Marriott, Park Plaza,
Danvers Ferncroft, etc??? Talk about an extravagant waste of money!!! Don't
forget, they also rent out about 10 smaller rooms too for child care! No
wonder we were always giving special contributions!!!
nancy
>
Gintas Jazbutis
>No! I never said that it is easy. It ripped my heart apart sometime to go
>against leaders with set paradigms. I have been threatened with loss of
>leadership and with being kicked out of the church on many occasions. True,
>it has never actually come to that point but I beleive in my leaders and I
>have no ambition to take them out, only challenge the sin and change their
>minds.
>
Well then, you haven't resisted to the point of "shedding blood"
(so to speak), as Mr. and Mrs. Bauer did, now have you?
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <4um169$5...@news.ios.com>, ChrisGarland <chr...@village.ios.com> wrote:
>clin...@iconz.co.nz (Clinton Williams) wrote:
>
>>too many people visiting us down here in New Zealand.
>
>from Australia to New York just as a gag. This was a VERY expensive gag.
>I don't find that to be careful with money; I find it to be a complete
>waste of the hard-earned contribution that I gave THINKING it was to
>"advance the Kingdom."
>
Yeah, but it sure impressed us techno-geeks like
nothing else could!
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Gintas Jazbutis
>Clinton Williams (clin...@iconz.co.nz) wrote:
>: I have challenged leaders on things that they assumed were without question,
>: asked most of the questions that can be asked and I was not transported to
>: any concentration camp. Hell, I changed quite a few things. The idea is to
>: change people's paradigms not to win arguments - a subtle difference.
>
You haven't changed your cussing, gosh darn it!
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <4um8fd$g...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>, n1...@usa.pipeline.com(nancy) wrote:
>
>I always wondered why the ICC doesn't rent out halls for their services,
>such as Knights of Columbus, Elks or whatever. If the only reason they
>don't want to build a church building is because they think it's too
>expensive, then why are they renting ballrooms at the Marriott, Park Plaza,
>Danvers Ferncroft, etc??? Talk about an extravagant waste of money!!! Don't
>forget, they also rent out about 10 smaller rooms too for child care! No
>wonder we were always giving special contributions!!!
It's a special contribution, for a very special place.
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
nancy
On Aug 12, 1996 05:03:58 in article <Re: hurting the faith>,
The ICC has got to be the most materialistic religous organization I've
ever seen!!!
nancy
EOshiro
Chris G writes:
>eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) wrote:
>>Rich writes:
>>
>>>The person who started the faith taught people to
>>>' judge not'. The ICoC teaches people to judge.
>>
>>What exactly do you mean by judging? For some people this means not
being
>>able to tell anyone else when they're screwing up. Well guess what,
Paul
>>told entire churches when they were doing things wrong. Read what he
says
>>in 1 Cor. 5:12. I don't using the Bible as a standard counts as
>>"judging." Like, "Here's what the Bible says a Christian is..." and
>>"Here's what the Bible says sin is..." Too often those who choose to
take
>>a stand are seen as judgemental. And Jesus himself says, "If your
brother
>>sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." (Luke 17:3)
>
>You seem to have forgotten verse 4, in which we see that Jesus is
>speaking about your brother sinning against YOU, not sinning in general.
>Big difference. You've taken it out of context and changed the meaning.
To quote Luke 17:3-4 (NIV):
> "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents,
>forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day,
>and seven times comes back and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
I disagree with your statement. I think if he was talking exclusively
about someone sinning against you, he would have said so in the first
sentence, not the second. However, even without this verse, my argument
still holds up. You should not sit and twiddle your thumbs if you see
your brother in sin.
Nancy writes:
>I always wondered why the ICC doesn't rent out halls for their services,
>such as Knights of Columbus, Elks or whatever. If the only reason they
>don't want to build a church building is because they think it's too
>expensive, then why are they renting ballrooms at the Marriott, Park
Plaza,
>Danvers Ferncroft, etc??? Talk about an extravagant waste of money!!!
Don't
>forget, they also rent out about 10 smaller rooms too for child care! No
>wonder we were always giving special contributions!!!
To my knowledge, special contribution goes to support churches in OTHER
countries, like the third world ones. Like the ones in Africa, whose
weekly contribution can barely cover the cost of the bread and juice for
the Lord's Supper. Special contribution covered HOPE, evangelism/new
church planitngs, and supporting other churches that needed it, like the
ones in poorer nations.
>The ICC has got to be the most materialistic religous organization I've
>ever seen!!!
So, where do you rank Pat Robertson & Co.?
Scott W. Schreiber
eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) wrote:
>So, where do you rank Pat Robertson & Co.?
ASsuming you know *anything* about Pat Robertson, given your recent
posts, what about him and his group is materialist? Is it the fact
that they took an airplane, gutted it, and rebuilt it as a flying
hospital, then flew it to third world nations and provided FREE
medical care and minor surgeries?
Please, enlighten us.
DAnder9518
In article <4unh9l$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, eos...@aol.com (EOshiro)
writes:
>
>> "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents,
>>forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day,
>>and seven times comes back and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
>
>I disagree with your statement. I think if he was talking exclusively
>about someone sinning against you, he would have said so in the first
>sentence, not the second.
Well, it's hard to tell, but this passage in Luke could be a parallel
Scripture to Mt 18:15, which says "If your brother sins against you..."
FYI, the ICC misuses Mt 18 as a protocol for member sins in *general*, not
sins between individuals. (once again, I can back this up from First
Principles).
>However, even without this verse, my argument
>still holds up. You should not sit and twiddle your thumbs if you see
>your brother in sin.
There's probably a difference between correcting someone's wrongdoing, and
*judging* them. As someone on the NG correctly pointed out, judging
involves *condemning* people, which is a responsibility that only rests
with a Heavenly Judge.
----->Dave
R. L. Measures
> Chris G writes:
>
> >eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) wrote:
> >>Rich writes:
> >>
> >>>The person who started the faith taught people to
> >>>' judge not'. The ICoC teaches people to judge.
> >>
> >>What exactly do you mean by judging?
......casting the first stone at the adulterous woman.......
> Nancy writes:
> >The ICC has got to be the most materialistic religous organization I've
> >ever seen!!!
>
> So, where do you rank Pat Robertson & Co.?
I watched part of his show a couple of days ago. He appears to devote
much of his program to the pursuit of mammon. In the early days, Pat used
to do talking in tongues, but he dropped it when a market researcher told
him he would do better without. Maybe Pat should have given talking in
tongues a go during his run for President. According to what I have been
seeing on TV lately, any gimmick is worth a try.
--Rich-- (805) 386 3734
Chris Lee
Sarah Bauer <rgb...@umd.edu> said:
>I have gone through "hell" to try and affect change within the ICC.
>I did not "run away." I was cut off, exiled, put into a form of
>prison. This is what has happened to many top leaders who have
>tried to affect change from within the ICC. Have you spoken to
>any of them to understand their perspective?
To which Clinton Williams <clin...@internet.co.nz>
>I have read many accounts of their trying to change things and it seems to me
>that the common theme is that they are trying to stop things, people. From
>another person's perspective, it seems more like sabotage.
Certainly, to one man, his motives and actions can seem pure to him; to another,
what he does may seem like sabotage. How does the godly man react?
I would certainly hope that the godly man would instead of dismissing the first
man, the man who seeks reform outright, that he sits down and has a discussion.
From that discussion, I'm sure the two would have a lot to talk about to each
other, including techniques and improving rapport and I'm sure both could learn a
lot.
How does the godly man react to accusations or information telling him that he
needs to change, or how he needs to improve something? Well, one could have a
prideful response. One could have a 'I'm going to blow you off' response. One
could attack the messenger. (Now where have we seen these things?) I believe
that a godly man would go away thinking and praying about these things, and see
the truth behind the message, evaluate it, read the Bible, pray some more, and
try to become the proverbial better person because of it. Maybe the message was
wrong or misdirected. Maybe the message was off-base or the messenger may have
been sinful or misguided. That doesn't stop God from teaching us what He wants
us to learn.
Well then, you might ask whether what people tried to change about the ICC was
valid. Go ahead. Talk to the people who left the church and what things they
wanted to change. There's a lot of people. Now why does the ICC not want you to
talk to them? Are the leaders of the ICC afraid of the truth? Are they afraid
of what you don't know? Are they afraid that you might find out?
Furthermore, how have leaders of the ICC reacted when change, reform, improvement
have been suggested? I think that the stories of the people who are ex-members
on a.r.c.b-c are enough to substantiate a very strong claim that the ICC has no
intention of changing. Moreover, the message was dismissed and ignored; the
people who have attemped to bring about change have been put out of the church.
There are plenty of stories outside of a.r.c.b-c about change and what happened
to these people; they range from horror stories like Milan, to inspirational
stories like Indianapolis.
I would encourage ICC members to find out more about why ex-members left, or were
put out of the ICC.
-Chris :)
RICK & SARAH BAUER
clin...@iconz.co.nz (Clinton Williams) wrote:
>
> Sarah wrote,
> >Clint, I've led churches in the movement. I've been a Woman's
> >Counselor. I've been at the top levels of leadership. I'm not
> >speaking from ignorance.
>
> I am very sorry. Sometimes I am arrogant in the manner in which I speak. I am
> sure that you know many things.
You are forgiven.
> I have read many accounts of their trying to change things and it seems to me
> that the common theme is that they are trying to stop things, people. From
> another person's perspective, it seems more like sabotage.
My intent has been to communicate truth in my expierence within the
ICC and to promote change within the leadership. Unfortunately, the
leadership has been unwilling to change the issues that have been
brought to their attention time and time again, especially by peers
who are very familiar with ICC practices and teaching.
> No! I never said that it is easy. It ripped my heart apart sometime to go
> against leaders with set paradigms. I have been threatened with loss of
> leadership and with being kicked out of the church on many occasions. True,
> it has never actually come to that point but I beleive in my leaders and I
> have no ambition to take them out, only challenge the sin and change their
> minds.
May I ask why the leaders threatened to kick you out? Do you see
a verse in scripture that warrants this type of practice?
> >Would you like more details about our communication with the leadership
> >of the ICC? We were not the average member having a complaint about
> >being told what to do with our time, or how to spend our money.
> I would love to hear more!
I will post more at another time. I appreciate your willingness to
listen and learn.
> Look I want to say again that I apologize for my arrogant outbursts. Please
> be patient with me.
I will be patient with you, as I would hope you'd be patient with me.
Sarah
Bryan Erik Slatner
In article <4unh9l$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) had
the following to say:
>To quote Luke 17:3-4 (NIV):
>
>> "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents,
>>forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day,
>>and seven times comes back and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
>
>I disagree with your statement. I think if he was talking exclusively
>about someone sinning against you, he would have said so in the first
>sentence, not the second. However, even without this verse, my argument
>still holds up. You should not sit and twiddle your thumbs if you see
>your brother in sin.
Not that in the second sentence, it is "sins against YOU" [emphasis] added.
This strongly suggests that the context of the first sentence also means "sins
against YOU" as opposed to merely "sins."
Even if you don't buy that, consider this:
Only God can forgive sins. Only God. I can't do it, you can't either. So when
my brother comes and asks for forgiveness for sinning against me, I can only
forgive the wrong against *me*...the blood of Christ and the grace of God is
required to forgive the actual sin. As such, this passage cannot *possibly* be
talking about the literal "forgiveness" of sin and it cannot *possibly* mean
"generic" sin since I can *only* forgive wrongs done against me, not against
others, or against God in general.
Love in Christ,
Bryan