Former Leaders Listings
RICK & SARAH BAUER
Recently Roger challenged me to post at least 200 names of top
leaders who had left the ICC. I posted almost 20 names of people
that were listed in Jerry's 2nd volume, "What Does the Boston
Movement Teach." And added some from my own knowledge. Several
of you continued to add those you were familiar with.
I'm sure there are hundreds more top level leaders than any of us
are even aware of, and I don't believe Roger would be satisfied, or
that it would change anything if we listed 800 former leaders.
But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with. Remember, some
would not want their names posted on such a document, please be
sensitive to that.
BTW, Roger, Bible Talk leaders are fundamental to the structure
of the ICC. Kip has said that the Bible Talk leader is such.
In LA the Shepherding couples are Bible Talk leaders, and have
only that "title," but are considered top level leaders. Please
don't minimize any level of leadership in the ICC. Kip doesn't.
Even evangelists are Bible talk leaders. Some former evangelists
are Bible talk leaders. To achieve this "position" a member must
be doing very well spiritually and producing fruit.
Roger, do not ignore the over 50,000 people who have left your
organization. Is it inconceivable to believe that even 1% of the
50,000 were leaders at one time in the ICC?
What will you do with the information that is given through this
thread? Will you check out both sides of these people's stories?
You know when top level management spoke out about the tabacco
industry they were made the scapegoat as well. It couldn't be
that tabacco is bad, and that the idustry has lied to the public.
It's those bitter, former employees. They simply have "bad hearts."
Check it out for yourself. Get both sides of the story.
Sarah
RICK & SARAH BAUER
RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
>snip>
> But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
> that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with.
Russ Hulbert - elder, 1984
Jerry/Claudette Jones - elder/evangelist/WC, 1987
Glenn Redmond - elder/intern, 1987
Jim Krause - evangelist/WC, 1987
Ben Holt - elder, 1987
Ronnie Worsham - evangelist,1988
Jerome Williams - Jesus in "UpsideDown Musical", 1988
Monique Antoine - Cairo mission team, 1988
Dave Cloutier - German mission team, 1988
Ron Gholston - house church leader, 1988
Jim/Sue Condon - evangelist/WC, 1990
Ed Burrow - house church leader/Deacon, 1990
Rick Pittman - elder/intern, 1990
Andy/Rita Lindo - evangelist/WC, 1990
Tom/Ann Turnbull - evangelist/WC, 1990/91
Daniel Eng - evangelist, 1990/91
Rex/Janice Boykin - evangelist/WC, 1990
Rick/Sarah Bauer - evangelist/WC, 1991
Campus Leader/house church leader
Rich Uhrlaub - evangelist, 1991
Steve/Joann Cassidy - evangelist/WC, 1991
Scott/Robin Deal - evangelist/WC, 1991
(many others on staff left during this time)
John/Sandy Owen - evangelist/WC, 1992
Alex Prezenza - evangelist, 1993
(many others on staff left during this time)
Ed/Bobbie Powers - evangelist/WC, 1994
(many others on staff left during this time)
Patrick Kylen - evangelist, 1995
This is in no way is an exhaustive listing. Roger, I didn't even
begin to list Sector Leaders, Zone Leaders or House Church Leaders,
let alone Bible Talk Leaders.
As it is, it's overwhelming. How much smoke needs to poor from the
gun before you will recognize the evidence?
Sarah
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
From netcom.com!rognmich Tue Oct 15 12:24:45 1996
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.boston-church
Path: netcom.com!rognmich
From: rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann)
Subject: Re: tape recordings (was Re: The Last Post)
Message-ID: <rognmichD...@netcom.com>
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Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:00:07 GMT
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Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : Catherine Hampton (ar...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: : : RICK & SARAH BAUER (rgb...@umd5.umd.edu) wrote:
: : : : Roger is not giving a clear picture of those who have tried to
: : : : influence change while effective leaders in the kingdom. Hundreds
: : : : of top level leaders have left the ICC, because their conscience
: : : : would not allow them to remain in an abusive, authoritarian system.
Current List of 200 Top-Level Leaders (evangelist/women's counselors)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Krause, Ronnie Worsham, Jim/Sue Condon, Rick Pittman, Tom/Anna
Turnbull, Andy/Rita Lindo, Scott/Robin Deal, Steve/Joann Cassidy,
Rick/Sarah Bauer, Daniel Eng, Russ Hulbert(e), Jerry/Claudette Jones(e),
Glenn Redmond(e), Ben Holt(e), Richard Poe, B. Kniceley, Rich Urhlab,
Ed/Bobbie Powers, Jim/Tanya Lloyd, Rex/Janice Boykin, John/Sandy Owen,
Patrick Kylen, Alex Prezenza.
Total names: 34 out of a claimed 200.
: When Bob Dole would debate his brother Kenny, "the great exaggerator," he
: would take each claim and divide it by 6.
Well, I'm proud to announce the the critics of the ICC can safely be
called "great exaggerators" now!
According to this list, it looks as if the International Churches of
Christ, a worldwide movement with attendances of 120,000+ in over 200
congregations around the world, sees one top-level leader leave the
church every six months.
Critics of the church would like you to think that someone who hosts a
30-minute Bible discussion in their home each week is a "top-level
leader" in the church, and a mover and shaker in the worldwide movement.
Since this makes as much sense as saying the attendant at the gas station
is a top level executive at Exxon, I've limited the list to elders and
evangelists--people who are full-time employees of the church who
actually lead staff meetings, perform weddings, preach sermons, and are
truly "top level" leaders in the church. To be sure, Bible Talk leaders,
house church leaders, deacons, etc. work very hard in their volunteer
work for the church in additional to holding down a full-time job.
However, both they as well as interns cannot be defined as "top-level
leaders" who oversee congregations of hundreds or thousands of people.
The point here is not, "See, people left, so there are problems in the
church". Every church has problems.
Instead the point is, CAN YOU TRUST THE CRITICS? They claim "hundreds of
top level leaders" have left, but they can't even come up with 200
names. They're at 34 now. "Hundreds" is a gross exaggeration.
I say check out the church for yourself, get to know the people that are
in the church, that have involved with it on a daily basis. Listen to
the critics, hear out their claims....and divide by 6.
Roger Poehlmann
member, SF Church of Christ
(International Church of Christ)
Benjamin Raymond
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
<snip>
>The point here is not, "See, people left, so there are problems in the
>church". Every church has problems.
>Instead the point is, CAN YOU TRUST THE CRITICS? They claim "hundreds of
>top level leaders" have left, but they can't even come up with 200
>names. They're at 34 now. "Hundreds" is a gross exaggeration.
<snip>
Roger, please stop it. Stop it.
NOT ALL CRITICS HAVE MADE THIS STATEMENT.
I will not be discredited because I cannot back up the statements of
other critics. They can handle their own claims.
PLEASE stop lumping us together like mashed potatoes.
Thank you.
In Christ,
Ben
RICK & SARAH BAUER
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Krause, Ronnie Worsham, Jim/Sue Condon, Rick Pittman, Tom/Anna
> Turnbull, Andy/Rita Lindo, Scott/Robin Deal, Steve/Joann Cassidy,
> Rick/Sarah Bauer, Daniel Eng, Russ Hulbert(e), Jerry/Claudette Jones(e),
> Glenn Redmond(e), Ben Holt(e), Richard Poe, B. Kniceley, Rich Urhlab,
> Ed/Bobbie Powers, Jim/Tanya Lloyd, Rex/Janice Boykin, John/Sandy Owen,
> Patrick Kylen, Alex Prezenza.
>
> Total names: 34 out of a claimed 200.
> called "great exaggerators" now!
Roger, you have neglected to include the staff in Indianapolis, the
staff in Milan, and some of the staff in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale.
You are not dealing with the names that are listed. Why don't you
call Patrick Kylen, an evangelist, who just left the ICC last year
and ask him about his expierence?
You mentioned in another post that you wanted to "confirm" the names
that would be listed. How do you plan to "confirm" their expierences?
> According to this list, it looks as if the International Churches of
> Christ, a worldwide movement with attendances of 120,000+ in over 200
> congregations around the world, sees one top-level leader leave the
> church every six months.
And even if the stat was that small - are you boasting? "One top
level leader every 6 months," and you are proud of that?
Believe me, Kip is not happy with those odds.
> Critics of the church would like you to think that someone who hosts a
> 30-minute Bible discussion in their home each week is a "top-level
> leader" in the church, and a mover and shaker in the worldwide movement.
Not all Bible Talk leaders are considered "movers and shakers."
"LA is sending 10 Bible Talk leaders, and these are the kinds of
leaders that we send out on Mission Teams...I want you to feel
grateful for the sacrifice that the LA leadership is making for
you in Indianapolis." Kip McKean, Indianapolis, 1994
But some are, and Kip McKean considers some Bible Talk leaders as
"movers and shakers." Not just anyone goes out on a Mission Team.
These leaders is considered "top level leaders!"
> Since this makes as much sense as saying the attendant at the gas station
> is a top level executive at Exxon,
"That's why I challenge, specifically teach and have taught in the
Bible Talk leaders meeting..." Kip McKean, Indianapolis, 1994
Let's see the CEO of the ICC is taking his time to train and "teach"
the low level grunts in the ICC. I don't think so. Kip does not
waste his time on such Bible Talk leaders if they are not at
a top level of leadership. He does not send out low level leaders
to Mission plantings.
> I've limited the list to elders and
> evangelists--people who are full-time employees of the church who
> actually lead staff meetings, perform weddings, preach sermons, and are
> truly "top level" leaders in the church.
Why are you setting such "limited" parameters? Kip considers Bible
Talk leaders as more crucial to the leadership of the ICC than
you do, and you've always claimed "not to be a spokeman for the
ICC." Who are you to make such a "limit."
> To be sure, Bible Talk leaders,
> house church leaders, deacons, etc. work very hard in their volunteer
> work for the church in additional to holding down a full-time job.
> However, both they as well as interns cannot be defined as "top-level
> leaders" who oversee congregations of hundreds or thousands of people.
Really? Again, some house church leaders are paid by the church.
Are you saying a Deacon is not a top level leader? My, My. Don't
tell that to the Deacons that are on paid staff in Boston. Call
Tom Bogle and ask him if he considers himself a top level leader.
I believe Roger is now drawing lines, because he knows that his
argument is falling apart.
> The point here is not, "See, people left, so there are problems in the
> church". Every church has problems.
The Titanic had problems. Does that justify the tragedy?
> Instead the point is, CAN YOU TRUST THE CRITICS? They claim "hundreds of
> top level leaders" have left, but they can't even come up with 200
> names. They're at 34 now. "Hundreds" is a gross exaggeration.
No exaggeration, indeed. There is no former members headquarters
where these people are logged into a data base. Noone can push
a button and spit out names of people who have left this organization
over the last 16 years.
Why is Roger not dealing with the 34 names he's already received?
Why is his ship sinking?
Houston, we have a problem!
Sarah
Ovum
In article <54024j$l...@news.internetmci.com>, RICK & SARAH BAUER
<rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> writes:
>But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
>that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with. Remember, some
>would not want their names posted on such a document, please be
>sensitive to that.
Weren't Chris Garland and Martin "The De-Marked" Hinves leaders in the
ICC?
Also, how far back are you going? Will you count people from "the
movement" days, before the ICC changed its name? Robert Hatch comes to
mind, and Trudy Plunkett, Charlotte ____, former Women's Counselor in New
York, etc.
DAnder9518
In article <rognmichD...@netcom.com>, rogn...@netcom.com
(Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) writes:
>Instead the point is, CAN YOU TRUST THE CRITICS? They claim "hundreds of
>top level leaders" have left, but they can't even come up with 200
>names. They're at 34 now. "Hundreds" is a gross exaggeration.
Many of Roger's recent posts are reminiscent of "Dispensing of Existence",
one of Robert J. Lifton's 8 psychological themes of Thought Reform.
"Dispensing with Existence" means that, in the eyes of a member, a person
who disagrees with the group's idealogy metaphorically loses their right
to "exist".
Roger dispenses with the existence of lots of people on this Newsgroup --
people who tell "crazy stories" from half-way around the globe (Martin,
Jani, etc.), people who don't attend at least 15 ICC services a year (me),
or people who have been "marked" (dispensed with) by ICC leaders (Sarah,
Ben). No anti-ICC opinion has the right to exist.
Now, Roger has made it his mission to discredit someone over the phrase
"hundreds of top level leaders have left the ICC".
Whether the person mistated their point should not even be the issue. If
Roger was really seeking the truth, he'd be addressing important issues on
this Newsgroup, not making credibility attacks.
$.02,
----------->Dave Anderson
nbogard
DAnder9518 <dande...@aol.com> wrote in article
<543cf0$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
| Dave Anderson wrote:
| Whether the person mistated their point should not even be the issue. If
| Roger was really seeking the truth, he'd be addressing important issues
on
| this Newsgroup, not making credibility attacks.
|
I am new to this NG, but I have read the posts for the last two weeks. It
seems that most people are into personally slamming Roger. I do not see
where Roger is actually singling out individuals; maybe I missed something.
Nicole
RICK & SARAH BAUER
ov...@aol.com (Ovum) wrote:
>
> In article <54024j$l...@news.internetmci.com>, RICK & SARAH BAUER
> <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> writes:
>
> >But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
> >that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with. Remember, some
> >would not want their names posted on such a document, please be
> >sensitive to that.
>
> Weren't Chris Garland and Martin "The De-Marked" Hinves leaders in the
> ICC?
By all means, anyone who posts or reads this NG is welcome to
add their names or names of those whom they are aware of who were
leaders in the ICC. I'm uncertain of Chris and Martin's level
of responsibility in the group.
> Also, how far back are you going? Will you count people from "the
> movement" days, before the ICC changed its name? Robert Hatch comes to
> mind, and Trudy Plunkett, Charlotte ____, former Women's Counselor in New
> York, etc.
I doubt Roger would recognize anyone from the "Crossroads Movement"
days, but I think they count as people who have left the movement.
They aren't included in the number (+50,000) having left the ICC
since 1979. If we included Campus Ministers and their wives and
old Crossroaders from the old days, my my....
BTW, I'm in touch with Trudie, she is living overseas, and her
brother Joe is worshipping with us in Maryland. :)
Trudie Plunket was a vital part of the woman's ministry at Crossroads,
and she is no longer affliated with the ICC.
Former Campus Ministers no longer associated with the ICC (sent
out from Crossroads from 1976 to 1980)
Joe/Vickie Hoffman; Rober/Brenda Hatch; Guy/Maureen Hanson;
John/Sandy Owen; Adrian Carr; Jeff/Diane Hill; Dave/Marilyn
Valiente; and Rick/Sarah Bauer.
There may be others that I've forgotten. This doesn't even
begin to included the many "movers and shakers" that moved from
Crossroads to these various cities to support these couples.
As well, when Crossroads disassociated themselves from the Boston
Movement in 1988, men like Richard Whitehead (Jeannie Shaw's father)
and Rogers Bartley (the elders at Crossroads during Kip's training)
were no longer part of the movement.
This would include women like Martha Peacock, one of the first
Woman's Counselors at the Crossroads. Martha was involved in
training each any every woman who left to go out to work Campus
Ministry, including myself. Rita Newcomb Lindo was also involved
in this training process.
I'm drawing no "limits" on who is listed on this thread, other than
those who wish privacy.
Sarah
RICK & SARAH BAUER
dande...@aol.com (DAnder9518) wrote:
<snip>
> Now, Roger has made it his mission to discredit someone over the phrase
> "hundreds of top level leaders have left the ICC".
I was the one who made this statement, and I agree with Dave's
$.02. Is Roger simply attacking the messenger, and ignoring
the message?
> Whether the person mistated their point should not even be the issue. If
> Roger was really seeking the truth, he'd be addressing important issues on
> this Newsgroup, not making credibility attacks.
I agree, and I do not intend to retract my statement, nor do I
believe I "mistated" by point. I believe my point is a very *valid*
one.
Roger, ask your leaders, ask Kip - How many "top level leaders"
have left our movement since 1979? Then check out who and why.
Will your leaders come close to giving you the names of those
that have even been listed on the NG.
"Brother, why are you asking such a negative question? Who has
put such things in your head? These former leaders had *bad
hearts.* They are evil, do not have anything to do with them.
You need to quit thinking so much, and just get busy being
evangelistic. How many people did you invite to church today,
brother?"
Roger's options are to attack the point, ignore the point, or agree
with the point, and he has chosen the former. It is his persecution
complex, and of course that of the ICC leadership.
"If you disagree with God's servant, you disagree with God."
Kip McKean, Indianapolis, 1994
Sarah
Catherine Hampton
nbogard (bog...@castles.com) wrote:
: I am new to this NG, but I have read the posts for the last two weeks. It
: seems that most people are into personally slamming Roger. I do not see
: where Roger is actually singling out individuals; maybe I missed something.
Roger does get slammed plenty. The people you see slamming Roger
are just those who haven't given up on him completely, though.
Most of the current members here actually respond to conversation
with something that indicates they read what they are responding
to.
Roger generally ignores any point he doesn't have an answer to (his
preferred method -- I don't think he enjoys hurting people) or,
if someone manages to back him into a corner, starts attacking
either their honesty and integrity or the honesty and integrity
of the sources of their information. A couple of weeks back his only
response to a detailed list of criticisms/alleged abuses from
Sarah Bauer, a former member who participates here quite a bit, was
to state that citing the Bauers about the ICC was akin to citing
Benedict Arnold about the United States. :(
Roger doesn't often sink to these levels, but at best he is the
finest example of mind control I've seen here. He =WILL NOT= see
the truth if it reflects negatively on his church. And perhaps
he can't -- extreme mind control does this to people. A lot of
people equate mind control with brainwashing, and assume that
someone who isn't a zoned out zombie can't be under mind control.
Human beings in their natural state tend to justify things and
rationalize things, so it takes some work to figure out whether
a person is doing this out of their normal sinful nature or
because of outside influences. It takes a tremendous amount of
work to spot it in yourself, perhaps not so much to spot it in
someone else, just like a lot of other sins. <wry grin>
If Roger's critics look harsh, it may be because most of us have
been there. There was a time when I would no more have listened
to or stood for someone criticizing the current leaders of the ICC
than he will. I got kicked out of a Master's Degree program at
Pepperdine University in 1983 because I was "tainted with
Crossroads". ("Crossroads" is the movement out of which the
ICC came.) And, like most movement people, I equated criticism
of him or other movement figures with jealousy or pride. I knew
people who could have told me plenty, but I couldn't hear it.
I hope Roger sticks around -- he's doing the former members a favor
by serving as a living example of exactly what we've been saying.
<wry grin>
Catherine
Gaylynn S. Yoder
This is my first posting to this newsgroup and I couldn't agree more with
Catherine's comments. (g) When I was first "lurking" here, reading some of
Roger's comments reminded me of one of the reason's my husband and I left
the Seattle Church of Christ. I remember saying some of the exact same
responses to the same type of questions/critisisms. The one that I still
can't believe I used was "..if this is a cult, then I am glad I am part of
a cult for Jesus...." and I wasn't a young high school or college student
at the time, either, I was in my early 30's. Anybody else "out there"
from the Seattle Church of Christ? We were there until 10/94.
Gaylynn S. Yoder
former member of the Seattle Church of Christ
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <01bbbbea$af8cc400$7138b8ce@bogzzz>, "nbogard" <bog...@castles.com> wrote:
>
>
>DAnder9518 <dande...@aol.com> wrote in article
><543cf0$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
>| Dave Anderson wrote:
>
>| Roger was really seeking the truth, he'd be addressing important issues
>on
>| this Newsgroup, not making credibility attacks.
>|
>
>seems that most people are into personally slamming Roger. I do not see
>where Roger is actually singling out individuals; maybe I missed something.
>
Roger is just a big, lumbering dirigible of a target. It really is
too easy to slam on him.
What's really happened is that there is no two-way discussion with
him, it's his way or the highway, and he _is_ smugly cynical. I think
we've resorted to slamming to try to get through his thick skull.
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Catherine Hampton
Gaylynn S. Yoder (gsy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: This is my first posting to this newsgroup and I couldn't agree more with
: Catherine's comments. (g) When I was first "lurking" here, reading some of
: Roger's comments reminded me of one of the reason's my husband and I left
: the Seattle Church of Christ. I remember saying some of the exact same
: responses to the same type of questions/critisisms. The one that I still
: can't believe I used was "..if this is a cult, then I am glad I am part of
: a cult for Jesus...." and I wasn't a young high school or college student
: at the time, either, I was in my early 30's. Anybody else "out there"
: from the Seattle Church of Christ? We were there until 10/94.
Well, I'm "out there" from the Northwest Church of Christ. I left Seattle
in 1987, the year the Seattle Church of Christ was planted. Kip and
Milton had a little disagreement earlier that year, or maybe it was
the year before.... <wry grin> Apparently there is a hybrid Church
of Christ that formed after a bunch of people left both Northwest and
the Seattle Church of Christ, called the "Fellowship Church of Christ"
or something like that. Several people I knew at Northwest are there.
Anyway, email me if you want to talk about Seattle. :>
Catherine
j marshall pittman
RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
>RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
>>snip>
>> But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
>> that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with.
><snip>
Noel Scott -
played Barnabas in "Upside Down" and King Saul in "Slingshot"
also produced an album for Teresa Davis
I believe he left ca. 1993 after moving from NY/Boston to Orlando.
-marshall
RICK & SARAH BAUER
"Gaylynn S. Yoder" <gsy...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> This is my first posting to this newsgroup and I couldn't agree more with
> Catherine's comments. (g) When I was first "lurking" here, reading some of
> Roger's comments reminded me of one of the reason's my husband and I left
> the Seattle Church of Christ. I remember saying some of the exact same
> responses to the same type of questions/critisisms. The one that I still
> can't believe I used was "..if this is a cult, then I am glad I am part of
> a cult for Jesus...." and I wasn't a young high school or college student
> at the time, either, I was in my early 30's. Anybody else "out there"
> from the Seattle Church of Christ? We were there until 10/94.
There are two folks I'm aware of in the Seattle area, but I don't
believe they read or post to this NG. Jill Jury has in the past,
but my server might not pick her up. The other gentleman I know
is Patrick Kylen, he's a former overseas evangelist. If you're
interested in contacting them, please e-mail for their phone
numbers.
BTW, welcome to the NG. Thanks for posting. :)
Sarah
rgb...@umd5.umd.edu.
DJRTX
In article <54024j$l...@news.internetmci.com>, RICK & SARAH BAUER
<rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> writes:
(15 Oct 1996 13:04:19 GMT)
>Recently Roger challenged me to post at least 200 names of top
>leaders who had left the ICC. I posted almost 20 names of people
>that were listed in Jerry's 2nd volume, "What Does the Boston
>Movement Teach." And added some from my own knowledge. Several
>of you continued to add those you were familiar with.
>
>I'm sure there are hundreds more top level leaders than any of us
>are even aware of, and I don't believe Roger would be satisfied, or
>that it would change anything if we listed 800 former leaders.
>
>But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
>that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with. Remember, some
>would not want their names posted on such a document, please be
>sensitive to that.
>
>BTW, Roger, Bible Talk leaders are fundamental to the structure
>of the ICC. Kip has said that the Bible Talk leader is such.
>
>In LA the Shepherding couples are Bible Talk leaders, and have
>only that "title," but are considered top level leaders. Please
>don't minimize any level of leadership in the ICC. Kip doesn't.
>Even evangelists are Bible talk leaders. Some former evangelists
>are Bible talk leaders. To achieve this "position" a member must
>be doing very well spiritually and producing fruit.
>
>Roger, do not ignore the over 50,000 people who have left your
>organization. Is it inconceivable to believe that even 1% of the
>50,000 were leaders at one time in the ICC?
>
>What will you do with the information that is given through this
>thread? Will you check out both sides of these people's stories?
>
>You know when top level management spoke out about the tabacco
>industry they were made the scapegoat as well. It couldn't be
>that tabacco is bad, and that the idustry has lied to the public.
>It's those bitter, former employees. They simply have "bad hearts."
>
>Check it out for yourself. Get both sides of the story.
>
Roger/Jayne Hendricks -- Indianapolis staff
Ron Gholsten
Todd/Jennifer M. -- LACOC -- (e-mail me if you want to know
their last name for verification purposes)
[See also Re: tape recordings (was Re: The Last Post) for additional
listings]
Joanne
Martin Hinves
RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
>ov...@aol.com (Ovum) wrote:
>>
>> In article <54024j$l...@news.internetmci.com>, RICK & SARAH BAUER
>> <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> writes:
>>
>> >But, I would like this thread to be a listing of former leaders
>> >that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with. Remember, some
>> >would not want their names posted on such a document, please be
>> >sensitive to that.
>>
>> Weren't Chris Garland and Martin "The De-Marked" Hinves leaders in the
>> ICC?
>By all means, anyone who posts or reads this NG is welcome to
>add their names or names of those whom they are aware of who were
>leaders in the ICC. I'm uncertain of Chris and Martin's level
>of responsibility in the group.
I have to be honest, I never rose to any positions of leadership.
I refused.
I did however have the "priviledge" of having as a mentor and teacher
a long serving Zone leader who was the NO 2 man in Sydney.
When he regarded me as being at the correct level of spirituality,
more inner ICC doctrine was revealed to me.
I once had a disciple, I did not want him, but they gave him to me as
a "test".
They took him away from me when I refused to order him around, and
tell him what to do.
I attended pre-leadership talks, pre-dating talks and some other crazy
talks like the time they wanted to send people to Iraq to kill
Iraqui's around the time of the Gulf War.
I was offered bribes, threatened and even assaulted to.
Sydney has a very fast turnaround of members.
I could name quite a few middle level leaders, bible talk and such who
have left.
Considering in 1992 (I was told that there were 1000 baptisms that
year starting with I was told 750 odd but I have evidence it was
really only about 690-700 : (again we were lied to) and ending with
450 odd. That's a loss of over 1300 people.
You had to be part of it to beleive it.
It was like rats leaving a sinking ship....
But I digress.
I could never have been an ICC leader, I would have had to betray that
which I held dear to me, and I could not do that.
Neither could I betray my freinds.
BBerggoetz
The leaders always used to tell us in Indy, "If anything in your life does
not match what the Bible says then it is your responsibility to repent
immediately. Do not follow the leaders of this movement but only the
Bible." I for one listened to that teaching. And when the practices and
methods of the ICOC movement were questioned and then clearly exposed as
deviating form what the Bible teaches I left. (Really, I got kicked out.
I can't claim great courage on this issue. The teachings of the ICOC had
me held strongly.....many times I swore I would never leave. Many of
those teaching still hold me from experiencing FREEDOM in Christ. This is
changing......slowly.) It seems to me that several "issues" in the lives
and doctrines of leaders of the ICOC do not match the Bible's
teaching.....yet the leaders continue in their ways, refusing to repent or
even listen to sincere individuals who just desire to follow the Bible.
And yet YOU ask who is to be trusted? Certainly not you or your leaders
who twist scriptures around for their own benefit to justify your cause.
You are no better off now than before you got in the ICOC. You have
merely exchanged all the "pagan" sins of the world (sexual sin, lust or
anything in the sin passages" for "religious" sins of the ICOC (pride).
What a liar you are Roger. I will never trust you or anyone else who is a
current member of the ICOC. You are blind as a bat. Incedently, I DID
check it out.....for 8 YEARS!!!!!!!!
I guess you can now start with the character & spiritual
assasination now. But let me save you the trouble. I admit it. I sin,
everyday. Not proud of it but none the less it is a fact. Does that
automatically disqualify my criticisms? Probably yes in your mind. Never
the less when I saw the opportunity to repent and change from the wrong
ways of the ICOC, I took it, eventhough it meant losing all my close
relationships and friends. I doesn't seem like you want to put everything
you ever believed to be right on the line to obey God does it?
Brad Berggoetz
Smlleecat6
In article <54flu5$g...@news.aus.world.net>, hin...@world.net (Martin
Hinves) writes:
>I attended pre-leadership talks, pre-dating talks and some other crazy
>talks like the time they wanted to send people to Iraq to kill
>Iraqui's around the time of the Gulf War.
What? The ICC wanted to send people off to kill Iraqis?
Starr
smlle...@aol.com (Smlleecat6) wrote:
Ancient Martin secret, Cat. He's told this tale before. Please,
please don't prompt it again..... :)
jzztp...@gmail.com
> RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> >RICK & SARAH BAUER <rgb...@umd5.umd.edu> wrote:
> >> that anyone posting to this NG is familiar with.
>
> Noel Scott -
> played Barnabas in "Upside Down" and King Saul in "Slingshot"
> also produced an album for Teresa Davis
> I believe he left ca. 1993 after moving from NY/Boston to Orlando.
>
> -marshall