ICC view on Gifts of the Spirit: Hypocritical, or just dumb irony.
Scott W. Schreiber
Do you members think it is strange that your church will condemn
charismatic churches. You do so saying "gifts of the Spirit are not
for today. There is no toungues or miracles etc." But your own
leader, Kip Mckean has said (in a wav file available on this NG) "I
believe I am a prophet."
Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit, is it not? How then, can you
continue under such a hypocritical system of inconsistency?
ATredway1
The ICC doesn't say that gifts of the HS are absent today. What it talks
about are when certain gifts are used and how. It condemns some churches'
and groups use of HS gifts that contradicts the Bible's use of them.
David Mark Das
I don't mean to defend Kip, but in this case your claim is not fully
backed up. There are many fundamentalist Christians (usually extreme
fundamentalist) who would agree with that because of what
dispensationalism teaches -- that only the "sign" gifts passed away with
the completion of the canon. Actually it is cessationalism (which is a
part of dispensationalism, usually).
There's a lot of cloudiness over the gifts anyway. I just gotta keep
reminding myself to go back to the Bible, clear my head of
preconceptions, and read what God left for me to read. :) Sometimes the
clouds really get large when you get around people who have strong
opinions in one direction or another...
In Christ,
David
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+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-.OOOo----oo-----oOOO.-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| David Das dd...@jove.acs.unt.edu |
| Denton, Texas (USA) http://www.unt.edu/~ddas |
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oooO ( )
( ) ) /
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\_)
Chris Garland
Tony, when I was studying the bible with the ICC, I was told that the
bible specifically said that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit
would stop -- including prophecy. Is the church now teaching something
different?
DAnder9518
In article <4u7ceh$b...@madrid.visi.net>, sco...@nhr.com (Scott W.
Schreiber) writes:
>But your own
>leader, Kip Mckean has said (in a wav file available on this NG) "I
>believe I am a prophet."
>Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit, is it not? How then, can you
>continue under such a hypocritical system of inconsistency?
Well, the ICC teaches that the *miraculous* gifts have passed away. But
prophecy is not necessarily a "miraculous" gift (as you know, "prophecy"
means more than just telling the future). So I don't see an inconsistency
in Kip calling himself a prophet.
---->Dave
Scott W. Schreiber
dd...@nfs-jove.acs.unt.edu (David Mark Das) wrote:
>I don't mean to defend Kip, but in this case your claim is not fully
>backed up.
The ICC teaches that "the gifts of the Spirit do not occur today."
That is what I was told by a member. Prophecy is listed, in the Bible
as a gift of the Spirit. Therefore, we have doctrinal contradiction
in the ICC.
Scott W. Schreiber
dande...@aol.com (DAnder9518) wrote:
>But prophecy is not necessarily a "miraculous" gift
Prophecy is recieving direct insight from God himself, right?
That sounds pretty miraculous to me.
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
Here we go again with the "I was told by a member" being equated with
"The ICC teaches". Why don't we look at what the Bible says instead of
following the teachings of men?
Romans 12:6-8 discusses spiritual gifts such as prophesying...but also
ones of "faith, encouraging, teaching, leadership, contributing to the
needs of others", etc. I hope those did not pass away, or that anyone
feels exempted from encouraging or having faith because, "that's not my
gift". Some people do that when challenged with evangelism--it is really
sickening to see someone misquote Scriptures to justify their selfishness.
However, we're not seeing people able to speak in Japanese who have never
studied the language, children dead for hours being raised to life, and
the miraculous gifts that were present in the 1st Century and transferred
by the laying on of the apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). I wish we did; boy,
it would make studying the Bible with people in far-off lands much, much
easier. As it is, we have to find someone who speaks the language and
then pick a mission team from that small group.
Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God. I
can't tell the future, but I can use the Bible to teach others what God
says. I imagine Kip does pretty much the same.
Roger Poehlmann
member, SF Church of Christ
(International Church of Christ)
Ian Euguene Charleton
On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Roger/Michelle Poehlmann wrote:
> Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
> : dd...@nfs-jove.acs.unt.edu (David Mark Das) wrote:
>
> : >I don't mean to defend Kip, but in this case your claim is not fully
> : >backed up.
>
> : The ICC teaches that "the gifts of the Spirit do not occur today."
> : That is what I was told by a member. Prophecy is listed, in the Bible
> : as a gift of the Spirit. Therefore, we have doctrinal contradiction
> : in the ICC.
>
> Here we go again with the "I was told by a member" being equated with
> "The ICC teaches". Why don't we look at what the Bible says instead of
> following the teachings of men?
>
Let's quote FP again. In the "Baptism With the Holy Spirit" Study it
says:
"3. The Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit (next lesson)
A. Recieved by the apostle's laying on of hands
B. No longer present today"
In the next lesson, "prophecy" is listed as one of the miraculous gifts
that is no longer present today.
If the ICC puts it in black and white, is it safe to say that the ICC
teaches it?
--Ian
Scott W. Schreiber
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>Here we go again with the "I was told by a member" being equated with
>"The ICC teaches".
So there you have it. Not even the words of members of your own
church bear any weight with you eh Roger? That is REALLY strange.
I was told this by Bret Eugene Fisher, member of the Norfolk branch of
the ICC. His email addx is br...@as39.navy.mil, and I can get you his
phone number so you can talk to him yourself to see what a liar he is,
seeing as how you imply he would mislead me. I can assure you that
nothing is father from the truth. I have NO reason not to believe
him, I wonder why you do...
>Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God.
The word of God that they speak comes directly from God Himself! A
prophet isn't someone who reads a book and then says "I have a
prophecy from God...well actually, it's here in this book." A prophet
get's the skinny straight from the SOURCE! THAT is pretty MIRACULOUS!
I sure wish it happened to me!!
David Mark Das
> However, we're not seeing people able to speak in Japanese who have never
> studied the language, children dead for hours being raised to life, and
> the miraculous gifts that were present in the 1st Century and transferred
> by the laying on of the apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). I wish we did; boy,
> it would make studying the Bible with people in far-off lands much, much
> easier. As it is, we have to find someone who speaks the language and
> then pick a mission team from that small group.
Roger, it's a weak argument to say that, well, I haven't seen them, so
they must have passed away in the 3rd century (or whenever your chosen
cutoff date is). You obviously haven't read or had much contact with
contemporary third-world missionaries. If you want to go back to the
Bible, tell me where it says the miraculous gifts will cease, then we'll
talk.
> Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God. I
> can't tell the future, but I can use the Bible to teach others what God
> says. I imagine Kip does pretty much the same.
Speaking the word of God, as well as being a calling on every Christian,
is essentially the job of pastors and teachers, which are other gifts.
Does the Bible give any indication that "prophet" means just what Old
Testament prophets were -- speaking direct and specific words from God at
a given time in a given place (as opposed to teaching God's written Word).
In Jesus,
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <4ufa51$d...@hermes.acs.unt.edu>, dd...@nfs-jove.acs.unt.edu (David Mark Das) wrote:
>> However, we're not seeing people able to speak in Japanese who have never
>> studied the language, children dead for hours being raised to life, and
>> the miraculous gifts that were present in the 1st Century and transferred
>> by the laying on of the apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). I wish we did; boy,
>> it would make studying the Bible with people in far-off lands much, much
>> easier. As it is, we have to find someone who speaks the language and
>> then pick a mission team from that small group.
>
>Roger, it's a weak argument to say that, well, I haven't seen them, so
>they must have passed away in the 3rd century (or whenever your chosen
>cutoff date is). You obviously haven't read or had much contact with
>contemporary third-world missionaries. If you want to go back to the
>Bible, tell me where it says the miraculous gifts will cease, then we'll
>talk.
>
Are there people being raised from the dead? Are legs being
lengthened?
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
David Mark Das
> >> However, we're not seeing people able to speak in Japanese who have never
> >> studied the language, children dead for hours being raised to life, and
> >> the miraculous gifts that were present in the 1st Century and transferred
> >> by the laying on of the apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). I wish we did; boy,
> >> it would make studying the Bible with people in far-off lands much, much
> >> easier. As it is, we have to find someone who speaks the language and
> >> then pick a mission team from that small group.
> >
> >Roger, it's a weak argument to say that, well, I haven't seen them, so
> >they must have passed away in the 3rd century (or whenever your chosen
> >cutoff date is). You obviously haven't read or had much contact with
> >contemporary third-world missionaries. If you want to go back to the
> >Bible, tell me where it says the miraculous gifts will cease, then we'll
> >talk.
> >
> Are there people being raised from the dead? Are legs being
> lengthened?
You'd be surprised. Have you ever read any of John Wimber's books (e.g.
Power Evangelism) or the excellent anthology The Kingdom And The Power?
In Christ,
RICK & SARAH BAUER
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
> Here we go again with the "I was told by a member" being equated with
> "The ICC teaches". Why don't we look at what the Bible says instead of
> following the teachings of men?
Roger, are you not speaking out of both sides of your mouth when you
say "look at what the Bible says," and then turn around and spout
the party-line of the ICC?
What you believe and teach in regard to Matthew 28 is "following the
teachings of men."
Why do you say one thing and then do another?
Sarah
Scott W. Schreiber
Ian Euguene Charleton <iec...@jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote:
>If the ICC puts it in black and white, is it safe to say that the ICC
>teaches it?
Oh. Here you go with the "I read it in an ICC published study guide"
being equated to "The icc teaches."
EOshiro
(NOTE: The first time I tried to post this, I got 3 e-mails, all saying
the same thing, that it didn't post. Hopefully, this doesn't double up.)
Scott asks:
>Do you members think it is strange that your church will condemn
>charismatic churches. You do so saying "gifts of the Spirit are not
>for today. There is no toungues or miracles etc." But your own
>leader, Kip Mckean has said (in a wav file available on this NG) "I
>believe I am a prophet."
>
>Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit, is it not? How then, can you
>continue under such a hypocritical system of inconsistency?
From my on-line dictionary:
>PROPHET (n.)
> 1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter
> through whom the will of a god is expressed.
> 2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional
> powers of expression.
> 3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
> 4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
Now prophecy, as in the first and third definitions should no longer be
needed. However, the second and fourth definitions could certainly apply
to Kip. (I know, some you don't agree with #2, but #4 fits.)
According to ICC doctrine, several miracles (such as prophecy, tongues,
healing) are not needed any more because they were to confirm the messages
that were being preached at the time. (Mark 16:15-20; Hebrews 2:1-4) Now
we have the Bible, which fully equips us with everything we need to know,
so no new revelations are being made, so no signs are needed to accompany
them. Contrast this to Mormons, for instance, who supposedly have
prophecy, but no confirming gifts. Also, miracles can be fake (2 Thes.
2:9-10). Besides, several people personally witnessed Jesus doing
miracles, yet still refused to beleive.
Gintas Jazbutis
>> Are there people being raised from the dead? Are legs being
>> lengthened?
>
>You'd be surprised. Have you ever read any of John Wimber's books (e.g.
>Power Evangelism) or the excellent anthology The Kingdom And The Power?
>
I sure would be!
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
RICK & SARAH BAUER
> > Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God. I
> > can't tell the future, but I can use the Bible to teach others what God
> > says. I imagine Kip does pretty much the same.
>
> Speaking the word of God, as well as being a calling on every Christian,
> is essentially the job of pastors and teachers, which are other gifts.
> Does the Bible give any indication that "prophet" means just what Old
> Testament prophets were -- speaking direct and specific words from God at
> a given time in a given place (as opposed to teaching God's written Word).
Roger, the Bible does not teach that "prophets are just men who are
called by God to speak the word of God." Look the word up in your
Vines Expository Dictionary.
"one who speaks forth or openly; a proclaimer of a divine message,
deonoted among the Greeks an interpreter of the oracles of the gods...
the prophet was one who had immediate intercourse with God...in
general, the prophet was one upon who the Spirit of God rested..."
It's not as simple a definition as your leaders would like you to
believe. Check out the verses that are listed in Vines, Old and
New Testament.
1 Sam. 3:19-21 - "Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord."
1 Sam. 9:9 - "the prophet of today was called a seer."
Matthew 10:41 - What was the difference between a prophet and a
righteous man?
Mt. 21:46 - "people held that Jesus was a prophet."
Mark 6:4 - Jesus intimates himself as a prophet.
Acts 13:1 - A list of prophets and teachers - not every leaders was
concerened a prophet.
The Holy Spirit spoke to these men. They saw into the future. They
spoke in tongues. They healed the sick.
Ephesians 2:19-20 - "God's household, built on the foundation of
the apostels and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief
cornerstond."
And I've only begun my study on this subject.
A prophet is described as more than just a man with a message
in the scriptures.
Sarah
Scott W. Schreiber
eos...@aol.com (EOshiro) wrote:
>However, the second and fourth definitions could certainly apply
>to Kip. (I know, some you don't agree with #2, but #4 fits.)
>According to ICC doctrine, several miracles (such as prophecy, tongues,
>healing) are not needed any more because they were to confirm the messages
>that were being preached at the time.
Let's look at Kip's words once again:
"we've gone so *_Church of Christ_* that we don't wanna say there are
prophets today."
Going "Church of Christ" was not a reference to def #4, being the head
spokesman. It is refering the the Mainline COC doesn't beleive in
prophets today either. So Kip was speaking in the context of
definition #1, receiving divine inspiration.
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
If you're correct in your speculation, Scott, then where is the document
where these revelations of "divine inspiration" can be found? What new
teachings are there that are of equal value with Scripture? What new
book, scroll, or parchment do we find the teachings of Kip or some other
man which is treated within the ICC as of equal weight with Scripture?
What other source is quoted from the pulpit, meditated on by Christians
during their Quiet Times, and comprises the 67th book of the Bible?
THERE ISN'T ONE! Therefore, Scott is incorrect in his speculation.
Anyone reading this post can come to an ICC church service and probably
won't hear Kip's named mentioned once. In my being here in San
Francisco, he has not addressed the full congregation even once!
What's happening here is that the critics are making every attempt to
discredit the disciples. You'd so much like people to think the ICC is
just like David Koresh, Jim Jones, or some other wacky self-proclaimed
messiah figure who just makes stuff up as he goes along. I've been in
this church for 7 years, and we have one Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
David Mark Das (dd...@nfs-jove.acs.unt.edu) wrote:
: > However, we're not seeing people able to speak in Japanese who have never
: > the miraculous gifts that were present in the 1st Century and transferred
: > by the laying on of the apostles' hands (Acts 8:18). I wish we did; boy,
: > it would make studying the Bible with people in far-off lands much, much
: > easier. As it is, we have to find someone who speaks the language and
: > then pick a mission team from that small group.
: Roger, it's a weak argument to say that, well, I haven't seen them, so
: they must have passed away in the 3rd century (or whenever your chosen
Historians record that the gifts passed away when the apostles and those
whom they had laid their hands on also passed away. Acts 8:18 teaches us
that the apostles were able to transfer these gifts, however, even those
who had them (like Phillip) could not pass them on.
: cutoff date is). You obviously haven't read or had much contact with
: contemporary third-world missionaries.
Being a first-world missionary, I see the miracle of changed lives and
transformed families. We have had frequent contact with those in the
third-world, and we see the same explosive growth of the churches
there, people's lives transforming to despair and hopelessness to joy and
faith in God.
However, I don't see people being raised from the dead, leprous arms
being restored, and people speaking fluently foreign languages they have
never studied. If you know of people who can do these things, by all
means, take them down to the county morgue and you will certainly reap a
great harvest amongst the unbelieving doctors and nurses, to say nothing
of the corpses there. We can call in the cameras from Nightline and 60
Minutes, and document this bonafide miracle in front of everyone. The
miracles in the Bible were undisputable and done in front of everyone,
for all to see, not off in some corner of the world.
If you want to go back to the
: Bible, tell me where it says the miraculous gifts will cease, then we'll
: talk.
1 Cor 13:8, but you knew that. Acts 8:18 would also lead you to that
conclusion also.
: > Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God. I
: > can't tell the future, but I can use the Bible to teach others what God
: > says. I imagine Kip does pretty much the same.
: Speaking the word of God, as well as being a calling on every Christian,
: is essentially the job of pastors and teachers, which are other gifts.
: Does the Bible give any indication that "prophet" means just what Old
: Testament prophets were -- speaking direct and specific words from God at
: a given time in a given place (as opposed to teaching God's written Word).
David, I was making a direct reference to the way Kip used the words.
Some critics of the ICC have intentionally distorted his words, hoping to
fool people into thinking that we disciples are a bunch of morons who
believe that Kip can predict the future and add new revelation as he sees
fit. The direct and specific words from God we have is the Bible, the
whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible.
Scott W. Schreiber
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>Some critics of the ICC have intentionally distorted his words, hoping to
>fool people into thinking that we disciples are a bunch of morons who
>believe that Kip can predict the future and add new revelation as he sees
>fit. The direct and specific words from God we have is the Bible, the
>whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible.
How do you distort "I believe I'm a prophet" ??????
Scott W. Schreiber
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>: Let's look at Kip's words once again:
>: "we've gone so *_Church of Christ_* that we don't wanna say there are
>: prophets today."
>
>: Going "Church of Christ" was not a reference to def #4, being the head
>: spokesman. It is refering the the Mainline COC doesn't beleive in
>: prophets today either. So Kip was speaking in the context of
>: definition #1, receiving divine inspiration.
>
>If you're correct in your speculation, Scott, then where is the document
>where these revelations of "divine inspiration" can be found? What new
>teachings are there that are of equal value with Scripture? What new
>book, scroll, or parchment do we find the teachings of Kip or some other
>man which is treated within the ICC as of equal weight with Scripture?
>What other source is quoted from the pulpit, meditated on by Christians
>during their Quiet Times, and comprises the 67th book of the Bible?
First Principles.
David Mark Das
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
> Historians record that the gifts passed away when the apostles and those
> whom they had laid their hands on also passed away. Acts 8:18 teaches us
> that the apostles were able to transfer these gifts, however, even those
> who had them (like Phillip) could not pass them on.
Historians record...? I thought you trusted in the Bible, not historians
(who of course can disagree). I can name plenty of historians who show
proof that the gifts did not pass away.
Acts 8:18 is an instance of Simon seeing someone being prayed for with the
laying on of hands and the receiver receiving the Spirit (OK, at a stretch
we could assume they were actually receiving some kind of gifts). This by
no means says that gifts were exclusively passed on by this method, and
even if they were, it doesn't say they were only passed on by this method
to a point.
> However, I don't see people being raised from the dead, leprous arms
> being restored, and people speaking fluently foreign languages they have
> never studied. If you know of people who can do these things, by all
> means, take them down to the county morgue and you will certainly reap a
> great harvest amongst the unbelieving doctors and nurses, to say nothing
> of the corpses there. We can call in the cameras from Nightline and 60
> Minutes, and document this bonafide miracle in front of everyone. The
> miracles in the Bible were undisputable and done in front of everyone,
> for all to see, not off in some corner of the world.
Your attitude is not a Christian one. You are being a Pharisee, just like
those in Jesus's day who were at first skeptical of his miracle-working
power. Then when they actually saw it, they either wanted to kill him or
wanted the gifts but not his lordship in their lives. It is an immature
attitude to taunt Christians who believe in healing prayer (for example)
who believe GOd can answer that prayer into spending the rest of their
lives in hospitals. God can call a person to that, but that's not what
every believrer is called to do.
> If you want to go back to the
> : Bible, tell me where it says the miraculous gifts will cease, then we'll
> : talk.
> 1 Cor 13:8, but you knew that. Acts 8:18 would also lead you to that
> conclusion also.
As discussed above, Acts 8:18 does not show anything of the sort. You
can't even extract the implication of such a thing from Acts 8:18. As for
1 Cor 13:8:
"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done
away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it
will be done away." (1 Cor 13:8)
Has knowledge passed away?? What is a sensible interpretation of this
passage? If you read it in its context, Paul goes on to say, "For we know
in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial
will be done away...for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to
face..." (1 Cor 13:9-12) Does it not make better sense to conclude that
when Jesus returns, there will not be a need for miraculous gifts? It is
true that some conclude the "perfect" is referring to the completed canon
of the Bible, but this is nowhere implied or inferred by the passage nor
anywhere in the context.
> David, I was making a direct reference to the way Kip used the words.
> Some critics of the ICC have intentionally distorted his words, hoping to
> fool people into thinking that we disciples are a bunch of morons who
> believe that Kip can predict the future and add new revelation as he sees
> fit. The direct and specific words from God we have is the Bible, the
> whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible.
Kip is going to have a lot of answering to do when he faces God.
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
: > Historians record that the gifts passed away when the apostles and those
: > whom they had laid their hands on also passed away. Acts 8:18 teaches us
: > that the apostles were able to transfer these gifts, however, even those
: > who had them (like Phillip) could not pass them on.
: Historians record...? I thought you trusted in the Bible, not historians
: (who of course can disagree). I can name plenty of historians who show
: proof that the gifts did not pass away.
During the second century (156-7 according to Epiphanius, and 172
according to Eusebius) the Motanists attracted attention in their
asserting that the gifts had not passed away, and they were still
receiving revelation via tongue-speaking. At the time, Motanism was
condemned by the Church as a heresy. After the Imperial laws of
Constantine they disappeared. (source: "The Early Christian Church" by
Nigel Davies, pp.89-91)
: > However, I don't see people being raised from the dead, leprous arms
: > being restored, and people speaking fluently foreign languages they have
: > never studied. If you know of people who can do these things, by all
: > means, take them down to the county morgue and you will certainly reap a
: > great harvest amongst the unbelieving doctors and nurses, to say nothing
: > of the corpses there. We can call in the cameras from Nightline and 60
: > Minutes, and document this bonafide miracle in front of everyone. The
: > miracles in the Bible were undisputable and done in front of everyone,
: > for all to see, not off in some corner of the world.
: Your attitude is not a Christian one. You are being a Pharisee, just like
: those in Jesus's day who were at first skeptical of his miracle-working
: power. Then when they actually saw it, they either wanted to kill him or
: wanted the gifts but not his lordship in their lives. It is an immature
: attitude to taunt Christians who believe in healing prayer (for example)
: who believe GOd can answer that prayer into spending the rest of their
: lives in hospitals. God can call a person to that, but that's not what
: every believrer is called to do.
I'm a Berean. I check things out and see if they are true. I read in
the Bible that Satan does counterfeit miracles to deceive the elect. I
haven't seen what you claim to see, so I can neither confirm nor deny
it. I just don't see people checking out of the morgue around here, or
amputees growing back new limbs.
: > 1 Cor 13:8, but you knew that. Acts 8:18 would also lead you to that
: > conclusion also.
: As discussed above, Acts 8:18 does not show anything of the sort. You
: can't even extract the implication of such a thing from Acts 8:18. As for
: 1 Cor 13:8:
: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done
: away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it
: will be done away." (1 Cor 13:8)
: Has knowledge passed away?? What is a sensible interpretation of this
: passage?
That it is in response to the Gnostic heresies that were ripping the
church apart. This is a big can of worms and really has nothing to do
with the ICC. If you've got people that can speak in foreign languages
without having studied them, bring them on, let's do some recording on
tape, and then play the tape for 10 different people who you believe have
the gift of interpretation. If they all come up with the same message,
call Ted Koppel.
Until then, I'm more impressed with a group of 30 rag-tag disciples who
multiply into an international movement of 120,000+ people worshipping on
Sunday mornings. That sounds more like the book of Acts to me than does
hearsay miracles and unintelligible glossolalia.
Smlleecat6
Roger wrote:
> We have had frequent contact with those in the
>third-world, and we see the same explosive growth of the churches
>there
If this is true (there is no documentation to back it up), then pretty
soon you will see the same explosive growth in those who call themselves
former members just as is happening now in the "first-world". Just hang
tight.
Smlleecat6
Roger wrote:
>Anyone reading this post can come to an ICC church service and probably
>won't hear Kip's named mentioned once.
However, when you go to the table selling the books and tapes, you will
see a box set of "the best of Kip." This is something I found quite
disturbing.
Starr
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
<snip>
> We can call in the cameras from Nightline and 60
>Minutes, and document this bonafide miracle in front of everyone. The
>miracles in the Bible were undisputable and done in front of everyone,
>for all to see, not off in some corner of the world.
Of course, all the people who actually witnessed these things are, of
course, conveniently *dead*, as are the translators of the original
manuscripts, as is the original language the manuscripts were actually
*written* in, not to mention the fact that the world has gotten a lot
bigger...oh, but why go into those little tangents? Everyone knows
the Bible is totally completely the inerrant word of God.
>: > Prophets are just men who are called by God to speak the word of God. I
>: > can't tell the future, but I can use the Bible to teach others what God
>: > says. I imagine Kip does pretty much the same.
Yah, well I can use Tarot cards pretty to foretell the future, and I
can read my horoscope and say "hey, that's pretty accurate". Doesn't
mean I accept it as holy writ.
>David, I was making a direct reference to the way Kip used the words.
>Some critics of the ICC have intentionally distorted his words, hoping to
>fool people into thinking that we disciples are a bunch of morons
You know, Roger, we "critics" really don't have to hope to fool people
into thinking you're a bunch of morons: you speak for *yourself*
quite well.
>who believe that Kip can predict the future and add new revelation as he sees
>fit. The direct and specific words from God we have is the Bible, the
>whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible.
And the world once was flat, and protestants were burned for heresy,
and crusades were launched to reclaim the holy land, and old women
were burned at the stake for knowing which herbs would cure which
disease. Aristotle and Plato were heretics. The mormons have a
second revelation of Jesus Christ. The Jehovah's Witnesses have the
Watchtower. The Muslims have the Koran. yadda, yadda yadda.
You should get a tape recorder, Roger, and just hook it up to your pc.
Then you wouldn't even have to reply to a message. Just set up
"denial" and you're there!
EOshiro
smlleecat writes:
For some people, it would be disturbing because they can find nothing good
about Kip.
Actually, our book table is fairly sparse. There have been times when
there weren't even Bibles for sale (gasp!)
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
EOshiro (eos...@aol.com) wrote:
: smlleecat writes:
: >Roger wrote:
: >
: >>Anyone reading this post can come to an ICC church service and probably
: >>won't hear Kip's named mentioned once.
: >
: >However, when you go to the table selling the books and tapes, you will
: >see a box set of "the best of Kip." This is something I found quite
: >disturbing.
These tables are only set up at the once-a-month congregational service,
so perhaps if I looked for it carefully, I could see Kip's name once a
month at such events. In the ICC, the Lord Almighty in heaven is God, and
the rest of us are human beings trying to do the best we can.
: For some people, it would be disturbing because they can find nothing good
: about Kip.
If you want to see something really scary, go into a record store and
you'll see albums like "The Best of Depeche Mode", "Barbara Mandrell's
Greatest Hits", etc. Depeche Mode = God? Barbara Mandrell = God? I
think not. Kip's a very powerful preacher who can communicate points out
of God's Word the Bible very effectively. What is truly disturbing is
that country music sells so many records. :)
Gintas Jazbutis
>Actually, our book table is fairly sparse. There have been times when
>there weren't even Bibles for sale (gasp!)
Check out the "lost and found" bin, there're probably a bunch of
bibles there... Just reminiscing from days when I was the lost
and found man in the church. Some people would lose their
heads if they weren't attached.
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Raymond Tam
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
<snip--real issues deleted>
: If you want to see something really scary, go into a record store and
: you'll see albums like "The Best of Depeche Mode", "Barbara Mandrell's
: Greatest Hits", etc. Depeche Mode = God? Barbara Mandrell = God? I
: think not. Kip's a very powerful preacher who can communicate points out
: of God's Word the Bible very effectively. What is truly disturbing is
: that country music sells so many records. :)
I'm afraid I must apologize for Roger's poor taste in music.
Unfortunately, he has not yet come to realize that in this world, there
are only two kinds of *real* music: country & western. :-)
raymond
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time or die by suicide."
-Abraham Lincoln
Catherine Hampton
Raymond Tam (rt...@crl.com) wrote:
: Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: <snip--real issues deleted>
: : If you want to see something really scary, go into a record store and
: : you'll see albums like "The Best of Depeche Mode", "Barbara Mandrell's
: : Greatest Hits", etc. Depeche Mode = God? Barbara Mandrell = God? I
: : think not. Kip's a very powerful preacher who can communicate points out
: : of God's Word the Bible very effectively. What is truly disturbing is
: : that country music sells so many records. :)
: I'm afraid I must apologize for Roger's poor taste in music.
: Unfortunately, he has not yet come to realize that in this world, there
: are only two kinds of *real* music: country & western. :-)
I don't believe it. I agree with Roger about something. ;>
Of course, I'll listen to Josquin Dez Prez or Keith Jarrett in preference
to any of this. ;>
Catherine