Oahu Church of Christ-Different?
chemi
(This is my second attempt to post so if the first one appears-sorry
about repeats!)
I have some questions directed at both current and ex ICC members,
particularly Oahu Church of Christ members. I have been attending the
Oahu Church of Christ(OCC)--as a frequent "visitor" not a member!--since
about October 1995. I went through the 5 part bible study(what is it
called now-"First Principles"?) and nearly became a member earlier this
year but I decided not to go through with it, for various reasons--- I
could not seem to reach the same understanding with their
"interpetation" of scriptures, and their "doctrines"(ie, only committed,
baptized disciples are "saved" and "we are the most committed
church/other churches are not as committed as we are" type statements.)
BUT I did NOT see the same "abuses" that I had read and heard about that
was happening in other ICC churches. (which also made me continue to
investigate the ICC more carefully--so thank you all for making me aware
of possible problems!!) But I did notice they were rather legalistic and
I detected a little "elitism" there too. Also, when I did bring up what
I had heard about the ICC, for the most part it was kind of dismissed as
the grumbling of "disgruntled ex-members" or as "persecution". Anyways,
since my decision not to join, they did express a little disapointment
and concern, but no one shunned me or dropped me--which was one of my
greatest worries, because I valued the friendships I made at OCC. But my
conscience bothered me and I felt that I could not join a particular
church just because I enjoyed the fellowship! Which brings me to my
questions:
1. Was my ICC experience at Oahu Church of Christ different from what
others have experienced there? It seems to me that OCC is a "kinder
and gentler" ICC church, but then, I was never officially a MEMBER!
(Although I did participate in bible studies, mid-week services, prayer
groups, etc.) And several members including some in leadership positions
were aware of my decision not to join and yet I was not dropped or
avoided. I am still invited to different activities and church services
and I continue to attend Sunday services from time to time, but they are
aware that I go to other Churches services and bible study groups.
Are they hoping I may still join?? Were they easy on me because I never
became a member??
2. I attended OCC services yesterday (Sunday) and I heard that Brock
Roby, (the lead evangelist) was out of town, visiting the Tokyo Church
of Christ. Because Oahu is part of the same sector as the Tokyo Church
so I guess he was participating in a meeting with other church leaders.
Which got me worried. Does this mean some changes ahead for OCC???Should
I be concerned?? My close friend is a group leader in the OCC. Will this
affect the leadership there--will things get more harsh? (Rick Bauer-I
have read your article"Responding to the Boston Movement/ICC" regarding
"kinder and gentler" ICC groups)
Although I decided not to join the Oahu Church, I must admit, as a
result of going to OCC, I have become much more committed in my
relationship with Christ. Before going to OCC I had sort of "fallen
away", had "backslid" for a number of years, so I am grateful to my
friends at OCC to get me back on track! Of course, at the same time I
really began to doubt if I had really even been a Christian the past few
years, as a result of studying the bible with them--because I wasn't
living the life I should have been.(But I still feel I was-because I did
have a real "heart-change" many years ago when I made my decision for
Christ.) But now I am much stronger in my faith, yet I have not joined
any one church. I just decided to let God direct me to where He feels I
should be. I just know that at this time, it is NOT the OCC. And I've
gone to a several other churches, all with committed, active members of
the Body of Christ, so I KNOW that its not just the ICC churches with
the "committed disciples"!! I just pray that the OCC will become a
little more humble and open, and less legalistic and less prideful about
themselves, and hopefully break away from the ICC leadership, ICC
doctrine and biblical "interpetations"! I just felt I wouldn't be
comfortable bringing potential Christians into the OCC and that would
NOT make me a very good witness for Christ, now would it?
Plus I think they make too many "man-made" requirements before somebody
is deemed "ready" to be a "Christian" (OOPS!-I mean "disciple")And why
do they put so much emphasis on water baptism being the point you are
"saved" Shouldn't the focus be on Christ?-on your faith in Him, on
making Him Lord of your life? And I haven't read anywhere in the bible
where EVERYONE must go thru a five part bible study before you are
allowed to be baptized! (But thats OK because I probably would have
ended up a member already, but part way thru the bible studies I started
thinking something wasn't quite right, and started "investigating")And
because I feel everyone's growth as a christian is different, it may
discourage others who "grow" more slowly. Or scare away others who are
not ready to take on so many requirements all at once!
Well, I hope to be a objective, hopefully unbaised, contributer to this
newsgroup, and I would like to help or encourage others who are/were
involved in the ICC. And I welcome answers/comments that current or ex
members/visitors have about the questions/observations I mentioned in
this post. Hope to hear from you all soon!
In Christ,
Chemi
kkr...@naic.org
In article <3324E7...@ibm.net>,
chemi <ch...@ibm.net> wrote:
<some pruning for brevity>
>
> 1. Was my ICC experience at Oahu Church of Christ different from what
> others have experienced there? It seems to me that OCC is a "kinder
> and gentler" ICC church, but then, I was never officially a MEMBER!
It may be that Oahu is "kinder and gentler" - if you talk to Eric, that
is. :)
> Are they hoping I may still join?? Were they easy on me because I never
> became a member??
Yes and kind of. :) I can say this from experience - it was similar for
me, in the KC church - as long as it appeared I was "open" to membership,
then people treated me in a quasi-member fashion. There was, however,
never total acceptance - until it appeared that I would be imminently
(re)baptized. And if you haven't read my post "A Chariot Ride" - you
should. It is the history of about two weeks of "breaking" - and my
ultimate decision to bail out.
> 2. I attended OCC services yesterday (Sunday) and I heard that Brock
> Roby, (the lead evangelist) was out of town, visiting the Tokyo Church
> of Christ. Because Oahu is part of the same sector as the Tokyo Church
> so I guess he was participating in a meeting with other church leaders.
> Which got me worried.
Just the fact that you were concerned that your lead evangelist was
meeting with ICC leaders should be a clue to what you really feel about
the ICC. If there is nothing to be worried about, why does your gut tell
you to worry?
> Although I decided not to join the Oahu Church, I must admit, as a
> result of going to OCC, I have become much more committed in my
> relationship with Christ.
I have heard it said that the ICC is full of many sincere people who are
sincerely deceived. I believe this to be true.
> Plus I think they make too many "man-made" requirements before somebody
> is deemed "ready" to be a "Christian" (OOPS!-I mean "disciple")
I think you see pretty clearly.
luck,
kim
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
VidEOshiro
BTW, Chemi, if you happened to notice a guy selling sermon tapes at the
far end of the book table, that was me.
Chemi writes:
>BUT I did NOT see the same "abuses" that I had read and heard about that
>was happening in other ICC churches.
Haven't I been saying that myself? :-)
>But I did notice they were rather legalistic and
>I detected a little "elitism" there too.
OK, I'll grant you that some people I know can be like that. But then,
another good portion of the people I know also are pretty much the
opposite. Just as a side note, we've been studying the book of 1
Corinthians in our mid-week services. One of the points I've heard
_twice_ now is that you can be motivated by a number of things. Guilt,
concience, pressure, compulsion, etc. But unless you're motivated by
love, you'll never be happy. And I took that statement as a challenge to
make being motivated by love our goal.
>Also, when I did bring up what
>I had heard about the ICC, for the most part it was kind of dismissed as
>the grumbling of "disgruntled ex-members" or as "persecution".
Well, in all fairness, it could be. Some people are nothing but grumblers
and whiners. [However, they tend to disappear off this newsgroup, or
change, within a few months. :-) ] Not that this justifies it, but it is
fairly easy to dismiss complaints and accounts of abuses when it has never
happened to you. Of course, if people do that, it doesn't say much for
their open-mindedness. I can accept other people's accounts of their
experiences, but in doing so, I expect (or at the very least, hope) that
they will accept my accounts as well.
>Anyways,
>since my decision not to join, they did express a little disapointment
>and concern, but no one shunned me or dropped me--which was one of my
>greatest worries, because I valued the friendships I made at OCC.
In my experience, I've seen it to be pretty much a standard not to shun
people. At least, not a standard practice. There are bound to be certain
circumstances where some people are completely closed and want nothing to
do with us, and we respect their wishes. Maybe it's just part of the
"aloha spirit" here that helps us not to dismiss friendships so easily.
>But my conscience bothered me and I felt that I could not
>join a particular church just because I enjoyed the fellowship!
Good choice, regardless of the church. Do a little more soul-searching if
that's your concern.
>1. Was my ICC experience at Oahu Church of Christ different from what
>others have experienced there?
In some cases (such as mine), OCC experiences are not anywhere near some
experiences at other ICC churches. To be fair, however, I did run into an
ex-member here once, and he said he was collaborating with someone to do a
radio program against our church _here._ Also, I think a book recently
came out here with criticisms about the OCC in it.
>It seems to me that OCC is a "kinder
>and gentler" ICC church, but then, I was never officially a MEMBER!
>(Although I did participate in bible studies, mid-week services, prayer
>groups, etc.) And several members including some in leadership positions
>were aware of my decision not to join and yet I was not dropped or
>avoided. I am still invited to different activities and church services
>and I continue to attend Sunday services from time to time, but they are
>aware that I go to other Churches services and bible study groups.
>Are they hoping I may still join?? Were they easy on me because I never
>became a member??
From my personal experience, I can say that things seemed a bit rougher
after I was baptized than they do now. I think the people that have dealt
with me here have honestly had it on their heart to _teach_ me things that
are important to God, things that are displeasing to God, things that will
keep me strong spiritually, etc. But after a certain point, they realize
that they can't do much more. Pretty much the same way that parents
eventually have to learn to let go of their children. They know they
can't control your life, and they don't really try. (Remember, these are
MY experiences & perceptions.) The sermons aren't watered down, however.
Maybe just the expectations are lowered. Personally, I'm don't think
that's a really good thing, but at the very least, it's realistic.
>2. I attended OCC services yesterday (Sunday) and I heard that Brock
>Roby, (the lead evangelist) was out of town, visiting the Tokyo Church
>of Christ. Because Oahu is part of the same sector as the Tokyo Church
>so I guess he was participating in a meeting with other church leaders.
>Which got me worried. Does this mean some changes ahead for OCC???Should
>I be concerned?? My close friend is a group leader in the OCC. Will this
>affect the leadership there--will things get more harsh? (Rick Bauer-I
>have read your article"Responding to the Boston Movement/ICC" regarding
>"kinder and gentler" ICC groups)
This was briefly discussed at our mid-week service. These changes will
probably affect us very little, if at all. Previously, the OCC was in the
same World Sector as the L.A. church. Things like our HOPE contribution
went to places like the former Soviet Union. [Or for those of you keeping
up with current events, the Commonwealth of Independant States. :-) ] Now
we are in the same World Sector as churches like Tokyo, Manila, other
Pacific Rim churches, and San Francisco. Our HOPE contributions will go
towards needy programs in our new World Sector. (I'm sure there are a
number of them in the Philipines.) Also, the couple that used to disciple
the Robys for the past 5 years no longer does so, since they're part of
the L.A. church. Some couple in the S.F. church does now. I will admit
that certain changes do provoke a slight increase in intendedly
inspriational messages, but this may or may not happen.
>Although I decided not to join the Oahu Church, I must admit, as a
>result of going to OCC, I have become much more committed in my
>relationship with Christ.
Amen! (no sarcasm here.)
>Of course, at the same time I
>really began to doubt if I had really even been a Christian the past few
>years, as a result of studying the bible with them--because I wasn't
>living the life I should have been.(But I still feel I was-because I did
>have a real "heart-change" many years ago when I made my decision for
>Christ.)
I'd just like to point out that a "heart-change" is not necessarily the
issue. No one's saying you're incapable of being committed. I mean,
millions of happy, fulfilling, non-Christian marriages must have occured
through the centuries. But the point is, that you can be sincerely wrong.
You can believe certain things about God and Jesus and the Bible that are
just plain not true, and you may have been putting your faith in one (or
more) of Satan's lies. I'm not saying anything about your beliefs, one
way or the other, prior or current, because I don't know what they are.
I'm just stating part of the issue.
>I just pray that the OCC will become a
>little more humble and open, and less legalistic and less prideful about
>themselves, and hopefully break away from the ICC leadership, ICC
>doctrine and biblical "interpetations"!
I'm with you for the first half, but would you rather the rest of the ICC
change? Breaking apart churches is not exactly a Biblical concept.
>And why
>do they put so much emphasis on water baptism being the point you are
>"saved" Shouldn't the focus be on Christ?-on your faith in Him, on
>making Him Lord of your life?
Primarily, faith in Christ is what you need. If you have no faith in
Christ, baptism is irrelevant. However, the Bible does show that baptism
is the faith-based response that proves to God that you are willing to
accept his grace. If you'd like, and if you're planning on coming this
Sunday (the Tri-Region service at UH, that is), come find me (Eric Oshiro,
the guy selling tapes by the book table), and I'll give you a copy of
"Born of Water: What the Bible Really Says About Baptism." It's not
available at the book table yet, but I've ordered a few copies through the
net. It's by Rex Geissler, a L.A. ICC member. Or, you can check out
http://www.greatcommission.com for the full text available on a web page.
>And I haven't read anywhere in the bible
>where EVERYONE must go thru a five part bible study before you are
>allowed to be baptized!
Well, there's not much in the way of what the Apostles preached on the day
of Pentecost. All we know is that Peter preached that "they had killed
the Christ," "Repent & be baptized," and "many other words." There's no
real Biblical guidelines on exactly how much is an adequate foundation for
faith, or anything like that. But somebody's managed to come up with a
study series that works pretty well so far. (Well, depending on who you
ask.)
>Well, I hope to be a objective, hopefully unbaised, contributer to this
>newsgroup, and I would like to help or encourage others who are/were
>involved in the ICC. And I welcome answers/comments that current or ex
>members/visitors have about the questions/observations I mentioned in
>this post. Hope to hear from you all soon!
Objective? Unbiased? Hmm, you haven't been around very long, have you?
;-) Keep that hope, though. (Please!)
Kim writes:
>> Are they hoping I may still join?? Were they easy on me because I never
>> became a member??
>
>Yes and kind of. :) I can say this from experience - it was similar for
>me, in the KC church - as long as it appeared I was "open" to membership,
>then people treated me in a quasi-member fashion. There was, however,
>never total acceptance - until it appeared that I would be imminently
>(re)baptized. And if you haven't read my post "A Chariot Ride" - you
>should. It is the history of about two weeks of "breaking" - and my
>ultimate decision to bail out.
Personally, I went through the studies 2 1/2 times. The first time
through, I didn't have much of a grasp about the Bible or being a
Christian. I didn't have much of any sort of drive to do anything except
keep coming around. Later, I decided I wanted to go through the studies
again. We got through the first two, but the attempts after that slowly
fell apart. (Just from laziness--we kept falling asleep waiting for
somebody to get there & the study to start, so it just fizzled out.) The
last time I went through the studies, it was a lot more intense &
challenging after Light & Darkness. But that was fine with me, because I
had a better grip on things by then. No, I didn't always feel
comfortable--but I never felt they were teaching me anything unbiblical.
But during all that time, I was never made to feel that I wasn't part of
the fellowship just because I wasn't a member.
>> 2. I attended OCC services yesterday (Sunday) and I heard that Brock
>> Roby, (the lead evangelist) was out of town, visiting the Tokyo Church
>> of Christ. Because Oahu is part of the same sector as the Tokyo Church
>> so I guess he was participating in a meeting with other church leaders.
>> Which got me worried.
>
>Just the fact that you were concerned that your lead evangelist was
>meeting with ICC leaders should be a clue to what you really feel about
>the ICC. If there is nothing to be worried about, why does your gut tell
>you to worry?
Nothing personal, but perhaps a slight tinge of paranoia? I have a broad
(and sometimes strange) immagination. My head swims with possibilities
sometimes. Especially in potential situations that I might be afraid of.
I don't like to get into something without knowing what I'm getting into.
Again, just something to think about.
>> Although I decided not to join the Oahu Church, I must admit, as a
>> result of going to OCC, I have become much more committed in my
>> relationship with Christ.
>
>I have heard it said that the ICC is full of many sincere people who are
>sincerely deceived. I believe this to be true.
Funny, I've heard the same thing about the world. And I also believe it
to be true.
Fredrick McConnell
In article <19970313101...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
VidEOshiro <video...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm with you for the first half, but would you rather the rest of the ICC
>change? Breaking apart churches is not exactly a Biblical concept.
Eric, you are a wise man - but do you realize you have just completely
discredited every single one of Kip's Reconstructions with that statement?
The reconstructions broke churches apart with wrecking balls and sledge
hammers. (I haven't been through one personally, but I trust the words of
those who have.)
What other "not-exactly-Biblical concepts" may exist within the Church?
I'm not going to spout the regular list of grievances, but just ask you to
think...which I know from your posts that you are completely capable! :)
:)
Fred
--
Fred McConnell - QMS Court Choirmeister @@@@@
2020 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, #119 @@:-) <- The Brian May Smiley
Washington, DC 20006 @@@@@
http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~fredmc Yeah, the guitarist for Queen!
(202) 737-5209
I need a twenty-year-old blonde that I can gaze at fondly
to rediscover love.
---the emptys
dande...@aol.com
>Which brings me to my questions:
>
>1. Was my ICC experience at Oahu Church of Christ different from what
>others have experienced there? It seems to me that OCC is a "kinder
>and gentler" ICC church, but then, I was never officially a MEMBER!
Actually, your experience sounds real similar to mine! *All* ICC churches seem pretty kind and gentle when you're being recruited, because you're being shown all the positive aspects of the group.
>(Although I did participate in bible studies, mid-week services, prayer
>groups, etc.) And several members including some in leadership positions
>were aware of my decision not to join and yet I was not dropped or
>avoided. I am still invited to different activities and church services
>and I continue to attend Sunday services from time to time, but they are
>aware that I go to other Churches services and bible study groups.
>Are they hoping I may still join?? Were they easy on me because I never
>became a member??
I'd say as long as you're attending services, you are still viewed as a potential member.
>2. I attended OCC services yesterday (Sunday) and I heard that Brock
>Roby, (the lead evangelist) was out of town, visiting the Tokyo Church
>of Christ. Because Oahu is part of the same sector as the Tokyo Church
>so I guess he was participating in a meeting with other church leaders.
>Which got me worried. Does this mean some changes ahead for OCC???Should
>I be concerned??
Out of town leaders meetings are nothing out of the ordinary. They don't always result in drastic changes in policy.
>Although I decided not to join the Oahu Church, I must admit, as a
>result of going to OCC, I have become much more committed in my
>relationship with Christ.
Same thing happened to me. It's nice that something good can come out of the experience, isn't it?
----->Dave
jimp...@earthlink.net
I think your perceptions as a "potential member" were very similar to
mine. This is a wonderful church! I had never seen such dedication and
spirit before. I attended a ICC church in Florida. However after my
wife joined (has since left) everything changed. They are showing the
icing on the cake-looks good at first glance. The minister discussed
my personal life with others that left me bitter and angry.They turn
on you like a snake when you question they program, there is no
middle ground. In 20 years of going to church this was to be my
firrst (and last) expierence with fanatics. I hope in time the memory
will fade away.I feel sorry for the young people they target for
recruiting, they dont have the life expierences to help guide them
and look at both sides .For the present they have a great money
generating machine extracted from 70-80% college students as their
core.I remember one sunday service when the "minister" gave out
plaques to the corporate sponsers,he told us "the church is also a
business!" JR
Gintas Jazbutis
>>Also, when I did bring up what
>>I had heard about the ICC, for the most part it was kind of dismissed as
>>the grumbling of "disgruntled ex-members" or as "persecution".
>
>Well, in all fairness, it could be.
And in all fairness, the stories might be true.
> Some people are nothing but grumblers
>and whiners.
And some people are rationalizers and justifiers. I guess the ICC
has none of them?
Gintas
|-------------------------------------
|
| Gintas Jazbutis
| gin...@concentric.net
| http://www.concentric.net/~gintas
|
|-------------------------------------
Gintas Jazbutis
In article <5g8rbg$s...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, fre...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Fredrick McConnell) wrote:
>In article <19970313101...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>VidEOshiro <video...@aol.com> wrote:
>>change? Breaking apart churches is not exactly a Biblical concept.
>
>discredited every single one of Kip's Reconstructions with that statement?
>The reconstructions broke churches apart with wrecking balls and sledge
>hammers. (I haven't been through one personally, but I trust the words of
>those who have.)
>
My wife could testify to what happened in Atlanta. To sum up,
the BM church went on as if nothing had happened, happy as
all get out. As if one day, you get a divorce and just completely
forget about your wife and children.
ov...@aol.com
> My wife could testify to what happened in Atlanta. To sum up,
> the BM church went on as if nothing had happened, happy as
> all get out. As if one day, you get a divorce and just completely
> forget about your wife and children.
Gintas,
Forgive me if you have explained this before, but could you
detail what happened in Atlanta?
Thanks.
VidEOshiro
I wrote:
>If you'd like, and if you're planning on coming this
>Sunday (the Tri-Region service at UH, that is), come find me (Eric
Oshiro,
>the guy selling tapes by the book table), and I'll give you a copy of
>"Born of Water: What the Bible Really Says About Baptism."
Scratch that. Sorry. I have to work. Major bummer.
Gintas Jazbutis
There was a discipling ministry called the Atlanta-Highlands
Church of Christ. Sam Laing was the evangelist. Someone
(I don't know who; I think Jerry Jones decided he needed to
leave over the planning of this whole thing up in Boston) got
a notion to take it higher. All of a sudden, the members get
calls that the church is meeting at <such-and-such place>,
which is not the church building. Lots go, and they have
a crankin' assembly. No acknowledgement of what's going on.
I think Kip preached. Meanwhile, the _true_ remnant had an
open meeting that night, where the leaders calmly explained all that
was happening, and opened the floor for questions.
Eventually Andy Lindo, who I think ended up out of the movement
selling cars in Ohio or somewhere, took over while Sam Laing went
to Boston for further training.
ov...@aol.com
> There was a discipling ministry called the Atlanta-Highlands
> Church of Christ. Sam Laing was the evangelist. Someone
> (I don't know who; I think Jerry Jones decided he needed to
> leave over the planning of this whole thing up in Boston) got
> a notion to take it higher. All of a sudden, the members get
> calls that the church is meeting at <such-and-such place>,
> which is not the church building. Lots go, and they have
> a crankin' assembly. No acknowledgement of what's going on.
> I think Kip preached. Meanwhile, the _true_ remnant had an
> open meeting that night, where the leaders calmly explained all that
> was happening, and opened the floor for questions.
>
> Eventually Andy Lindo, who I think ended up out of the movement
> selling cars in Ohio or somewhere, took over while Sam Laing went
> to Boston for further training.
Gee Gintas, I think you need to be a wee bit more cryptic.
After all, someone might get the gist of what actually
happened from this account ;->
Are you saying Kip called all the "cool" Christians and had them
form another congregation without telling the "uncool" Christians
what was happening? And the "uncool" Christians were, on the
other hand, up front about what was being done to them?
Are you saying a whole slew of bathed-in-the-blood-of-Jesus
brethren were dismissed from the Kingdom of God with no
warnings, and not so much as a Matthew 18?
Are you saying these relatives of Jesus were then viewed as,
and taught against as non-Christians by Kip, when they had
been heartily welcomed as fellow disciples a month before?
Is that what you're saying?
JGowan1112
****note: I added one paragraph that I feel was important. **** So you
might see this twice,.. look at paragraph marked with "**"....
Chemi:
In your posting, you ask if the Oahu COC is a kinder, gentler ICC
affiliation. Who can say, w/o actually having been a Oahu church member?
I can't (I am an EX-NYC ICC member), but then, you can't either.... even
though you've been going there for quite some time.
* You are NOT a member.
* You ARE treated differently.
* You HAVE NOT been coerced into giving your money and time to the ICC.
* If you want to go on vacation w/o saying a word to someone in the Oahu
church, you just GO.
* If you want to stay home during Christmas vacation and not return to
Oahu until several days past the NEW YEAR, then that's what you do.
* If you meet a beautiful girl and ask her out, although YOU probably will
be warned to "Be careful", you might not OUT-AND-OUT be discouraged
(though, you very well might be.)....
You see, Chem, until you make the decision to be a full fledged member of
the church, you are not going to be given the whole agenda... by the way
there are more studies than 5... by my count, you still need to do about
2 or 3 more (depending on if they "double-up" on a couple.) You certainly
haven't "counted the cost" it sounds like... believe me, if you had, you
would know what you were "up against"...
But really, a person might be in the ICC for years before they allow
themselves to questions some of the problems that experience. I
personally stuffed a lot of questions and attitudes about blantly wrong
practices because I thought the problems were probably unfounded and I was
wrong. The ICC is incredible at getting a person to doubt their own
ability to reason for themselves and to make personal decisions (bigger
than which brand of toothpaste to buy) on their own. They point to a OT
scripture that says "The heart is deceitful above all things." You get to
the point where if you don't something in the church, you think that it's
simply Satan working on your faith because that's what they will tell you.
I'm guessing here, but I don't think you've told them you've been looking
at all this negative ICC stuff, have you. They will tell you that it's
"spiritual pornography" and for you to never do it again. They will try
to discredit anyone who posts in these newsgroups or in an anti-ICC
WWWsite as disgruntled EXmembers who just didn't have what it took to be a
disciple or that they never were disciples in the first place. They will
say that EXs are just trying to discredit the church so that they don't
have to think about what they know to be true: they have left the Kingdom
of God on earth and are hell-bound!
** (added after first reply sent)
Also, you won't see or hear of any member tell you first hand of the
injustices (unless, of course that person is about ready to leave.)
Members DO feel the injustices that these EXmembers are talking about, but
they would consider telling you about these as SIN and would feel like
they would be personally responsible for your lost soul if you didn't
become a "disciple" because of their criticism. "Grumbling" and
"complaining" are not tolerated in the ICC!
** (end of addition.)
Now, I AM still a bit disgruntled, BUT I left the church because of its
manipulation and control in my God-given life. I
was tired of giving excessive amounts of time and money... I was tirled of
serving God without the heart (which I stopped having because everything
was mandatory.) One thing is for sure,....I do not make stuff up about
the ICC so that I will feel better. If I say anything negative about the
ICC it's because I was a witness to it. That's it. Period.
Without being a member, you will never know what the ICC is. But I don't
recommend trying to find out. You see the "Cult" word a lot in these
newsgroups. These EXmembers aren't just slinging that word around
haphazzardly. They don't say it because it sound glamourous that they
"survived a cult". They don't say it because they want to slander. They
say it because it is the truth.
And I do, too: the ICC (including the Oahu CoC) is a dangerous, mind
control Cult. (please note the capital "C".)
James Gowan (JGowa...@aol.com
JGowan1112
Chemi:
Now, I AM still a bit disgruntled, BUT I left the church because of its
che...@aol.com
>
>****note: I added one paragraph that I feel was important. **** So you
>might see this twice,.. look at paragraph marked with "**"....
>
>Chemi:
>
>In your posting, you ask if the Oahu COC is a kinder, gentler ICC
>affiliation. Who can say, w/o actually having been a Oahu church member?
>I can't (I am an EX-NYC ICC member), but then, you can't either.... even
>though you've been going there for quite some time.
<snipped to save space>
>You see, Chem, until you make the decision to be a full fledged member of
>the church, you are not going to be given the whole agenda... by the way
>there are more studies than 5... by my count, you still need to do about
>2 or 3 more (depending on if they "double-up" on a couple.) You certainly
>haven't "counted the cost" it sounds like... believe me, if you had, you
>would know what you were "up against"...
That could be true, but from spending time with other members, I could observe
what is generally "expected" but then again, I may not know for sure what the whole "agenda" is unless I became a member!
As far as I was told, there were 5. I went thru 4: "The Word", "Discipleship",
"Light & Darkness" (Sin), and "The Cross". The last one was supposed to be "The Church" which I was going to study the next day. But during the course of the studies, as I mentioned in my original
post, I became troubled about the ICC practices, & interpetation of scripture, etc. Right after I was to
finish "The Church" study, I was going to be baptized and become a member. Well, after a sleepless night of praying, researching, and seriously thinking about what I was about to get myself into--I
cancelled the study and the baptism. (Later I got baptized at another christian church)
We discussed "counting the cost" during the discipleship study, but I'm not sure if its the same "counting the cost" the other ex-members have described! There were no discussions on mandatory
church attendance, tithing, particpation in activities, etc.if that is what you mean. It was more like "counting the cost of being a disciple" which I was already familiar with and expecting to
follow, and I didn't have a problem with it! Maybe they were gonna really nail me with the harder stuff in "The Church" study! :)
>
>But really, a person might be in the ICC for years before they allow
>themselves to questions some of the problems that experience. I
>personally stuffed a lot of questions and attitudes about blantly wrong
>practices because I thought the problems were probably unfounded and I was
>wrong. The ICC is incredible at getting a person to doubt their own
>ability to reason for themselves and to make personal decisions (bigger
>than which brand of toothpaste to buy) on their own. They point to a OT
>scripture that says "The heart is deceitful above all things." You get to
>the point where if you don't something in the church, you think that it's
>simply Satan working on your faith because that's what they will tell you.
You know, whats funny is, during the time I was going thru the bible studies, I had been
discussing via e-mail & by telephone-- what was going on & what I was learning, with a close
christian friend. And she later remarked to me that although she had heard very little about
ICC doctrines/practices, she noticed that I was starting to doubt my own convictions/faith and
became more "accepting" of whatever the ICC members had been talking to me about, and
she started getting "alarmed" because it didn't seem to be biblical. But she didnt want to "discourage me" so she didn't speak up until I brought up my concerns just before I was to become a member.
So yes, I was starting to feel I was wrong and they were right also--until I came to my senses!-- I decided to really study the bible scriptures by myself and with others (outside the ICC) who had
been studying the bible for years, and that really helped me with understanding the scriptures.
>I'm guessing here, but I don't think you've told them you've been looking
>at all this negative ICC stuff, have you. They will tell you that it's
>"spiritual pornography" and for you to never do it again. They will try
>to discredit anyone who posts in these newsgroups or in an anti-ICC
>WWWsite as disgruntled EXmembers who just didn't have what it took to be a
>disciple or that they never were disciples in the first place. They will
>say that EXs are just trying to discredit the church so that they don't
>have to think about what they know to be true: they have left the Kingdom
>of God on earth and are hell-bound!
Yes, I have told them about the negative stuff. Yes, my friend did refer to it as "persecution"
BUT she did tell another member about the "negative stuff that *Chemi* had found on the internet"
and that she had taken a look at it herself , and concluded that "perhaps some of the ICC churches
on the mainland (continental U.S. to all of you outside of Hawaii!) were cultish" That member then told me that she would like to see the information I found! I told her I would give it to her, but
I didnt want to upset her or cause "divisiveness" . I was going to give her a copy of Rick Bauer's letter "Responding to the Boston Movement/ICC but I haven't gotten around to it yet! Actually, I
intend to give them both a copy--thats one article on the ICC that I feel is pretty unbaised and "objective" .
And it is one of the articles that truly convinced me that the negatve information wasn't a case of "disgruntled ex-members" or "persecution" and that I better really think this through before
joining.
>** (added after first reply sent)
>Also, you won't see or hear of any member tell you first hand of the
>injustices (unless, of course that person is about ready to leave.)
>Members DO feel the injustices that these EXmembers are talking about, but
>they would consider telling you about these as SIN and would feel like
>they would be personally responsible for your lost soul if you didn't
>become a "disciple" because of their criticism. "Grumbling" and
>"complaining" are not tolerated in the ICC!
I have to admit, I have not heard any current member tell me of any negative things
but I have spoken to a few former members of both the Oahu CoC and the L.A./Tokyo churches
that have had negative experiences.
>Now, I AM still a bit disgruntled, BUT I left the church because of its
>manipulation and control in my God-given life. I
>was tired of giving excessive amounts of time and money... I was tirled of
>serving God without the heart (which I stopped having because everything
>was mandatory.) One thing is for sure,....I do not make stuff up about
>the ICC so that I will feel better. If I say anything negative about the
>ICC it's because I was a witness to it. That's it. Period
I am sorry to hear of your bad experiences and I hope that it has not made you turn your back on God, and Christanity in general. I noticed there are a few people that have popped up on this
newsgroup that have done so, probably as a result of their negative experiences. My heart really goes out to them, and I just hope that they will let God back into their lives again and give them
peace!
One of the reasons I go back as a "visitor" to OCC services is to keep in touch with the members,
I want to be there for them, if they start having doubts or questions, and they need someone they could feel comfortable discussing their concerns with. I think now at this point in time, I am not
going to be swayed/influenced by the "ICC doctrines" and so I'm not in danger of getting "sucked in"!!
.And yes, I enjoy the fellowship, the sermons, and the enthusiatic worship there, and I really hope that the OCC would disassociate themselves from the ICC ("reputation" & practices)--If they would
change, I wouldn't mind like joining!!
But in its present form--"I DON'T THINK SO!"
Chemi
Ch...@ibm.net
I think I finally figured out how to use the AOL newsreader but if you want to email me,
please use this e-mail address: Ch...@ibm.net
>
>James Gowan (JGowa...@aol.com
che...@aol.com
I am (finally!) getting around to responding to the newsgroup posts-its hard trying to keep up
with reading them all, let alone respond to them! I'm still struggling trying to figure out how to work this newsgroup reply thing so sorry if it there is duplicate posts or mistakes!
EOshiro writes:
>From my personal experience, I can say that things seemed a bit rougher
>after I was baptized than they do now. I think the people that have dealt
>with me here have honestly had it on their heart to _teach_ me things that
>are important to God, things that are displeasing to God, things that will
>keep me strong spiritually, etc. But after a certain point, they realize
>that they can't do much more. Pretty much the same way that parents
>eventually have to learn to let go of their children. They know they
>can't control your life, and they don't really try. (Remember, these are
>MY experiences & perceptions.) The sermons aren't watered down, however.
>Maybe just the expectations are lowered. Personally, I'm don't think
>that's a really good thing, but at the very least, it's realistic.
The positive thing for me about studying the bible with my friend who is an OCC member was it really helped to convict me that there were many areas in my life and attitude that was not pleasing
to God and that I was not growing spiritually as I should have.
>I'd just like to point out that a "heart-change" is not necessarily the
>issue. No one's saying you're incapable of being committed. I mean,
>millions of happy, fulfilling, non-Christian marriages must have occured
>through the centuries. But the point is, that you can be sincerely wrong.
> You can believe certain things about God and Jesus and the Bible that are
>just plain not true, and you may have been putting your faith in one (or
>more) of Satan's lies. I'm not saying anything about your beliefs, one
>way or the other, prior or current, because I don't know what they are.
>I'm just stating part of the issue.
I don't think I was sincerely wrong in believing I became a christian when I put my faith in Christ.
I believe that only God truly knows a person's heart, and I don't think any of us can judge who is or isn't a christian based on some outward criteria. <take Roger P. for example, if one were to
judge by
the way he responds to some of the posts here, it would make you wonder if he is--but still the same
he is a "committed disciple" right??? :) ---sorry, I couldn't resist!>
There are people who by all outside appearance, lives/acts as a christian but in his heart, he has not changed (repented)--he is just going thru the motions. And then there are people who have truly
repented, asked for forgiveness, but are really struggling to live up to biblical standards! And that is
where I was for a while. But due to various events in in my life, & by God bringing certain people into my life (like my friend in the OCC) this all worked together to help me back to a stronger,
more commited relationship with the Lord. (Of course, I still struggle, I still sin,--everyone does-- but I'll be working on getting better for the rest of my life!) But I truly feel that it is not
His will for me to be an OCC member. There were too many troubling concerns regarding the ICC that I just couldn't become a member in good conscience. (And yes, at first I thought Satan was behind
all this, that he was making me feel this way because "Satan knows that this is the only church where I will really become committed to Christ, if I go elsehere, I will just fall away, big time!"
Guess What--It didn't happen! And I am truly grateful to God for this--he deserves ALL the credit !!
And believe me Eric, (and other ICC members) the OCC/ICC is not the only place where there
are committed Christians/Disciples--regardless of what your sector leader tells you --that he doesnt know of any outside the ICC???!!! ( I think they think that way too, because they tend not to
associate with other christians outside their church--where as usually pastors/members in other churches do associate with christians of other churches/denominations--more unity there I think as
fellow members of the Body of Christ--which is what I think the True Church really is!) This is part of the "elitism" aspects of the ICC which bothered me, as well as the legalistic aspects of the
the "works-based" conditions for salvation. (yes-I know faith w/o works is "dead faith" etc, but I do
believe that faith will produce good works, etc.) My friend in the OCC never came right out and said
they are the One True Church or that only ICC members are "saved" with OCC members--it's more subtle, but the idea is still there, in a way. (from what I perceive in conversations/sermons I've
heard.)
>I'm with you for the first half, but would you rather the rest of the ICC
>change? Breaking apart churches is not exactly a Biblical concept.
Of course I would rather see the rest of the ICC change rather than the OCC break away, but if
the ICC leadership are not willing to change, wouldn't it be better for the OCC to distance
themselves from their influence? Do you really want to contribute financially towards supporting
leadership that is hurting others and tainting the OCC by association? Even if the OCC is pretty self
supporting (as you stated in another post), a portion of your contributions are going to support the
leadership/headquarters church, where abuses are apparently still occuring. Although both of us do not see (or are aware) of any problems with the OCC leadership, we wouldn't know what really goes on
in the leaders meetings unless we were part of the leadership. (My friend attends the leaders meetings but I don't really know if she would tell me whats going on, especially if its of a negative
nature.) On the other hand, there may not be any problems with the Oahu church leaders, but some of those on the NG would assume there is, based on experiences with other ICC churches.
>
>Primarily, faith in Christ is what you need. If you have no faith in
>Christ, baptism is irrelevant. However, the Bible does show that baptism
>is the faith-based response that proves to God that you are willing to
>accept his grace.
><snipped> Or, you can check out
>http://www.greatcommission.com for the full text available on a web page.
Hey, I completely agree with you on that! But did you know -thats not what the OCC/ICC
teaches! I am quite suprised that you stated something other than the "official" ICC doctrine on Baptism!! :) Because I was discussing Baptism with my OCC member friend once and I told her
essentially the same thing, but I added that I felt (after reading/studying the bible passages concerning salvation) that baptism is not what brings salvation. Which started this rather heated
discussion about baptism in which she told me I should be careful about" teaching the wrong doctrine about salvation to others" and that "EVERYONE in the ICC/OCC believes the same way she does", and
" perhaps it was a good idea that I decided not to join her church because I didnt believe the same way"!! Really, I don't really think it matters that much whether or not you believe in
"baptimal regeneration" many christians of different denominations believe in it --RCC, lutheran, CoC
--it wasn't "re-discovered" by the ICC---I think what really matters is that we all believe that faith in Christ is what saves us! That is what should unify us all as Christians! BTW, have you ever
read
Gordon Fergeson's book "Prepared To Answer"?? I was just skimming thru it at the book table at OCC services several weeks ago, but according to what I read about baptism in the book, it appears that
we don't have the correct understanding of baptism if we believe the way we do! :) Which means our baptism is "invalid" !! :o (Well I know mine is "invalid" in the ICC view because it was done at
another church, and I have the "wrong " understanding of baptism.) But then I may be wrong about
what was written in the "Prepared to Answer" book...one of these days, I'll get the book and read it!
Also I did save the text at www.greatcommission.com and skimmed through it. It does have some
valid points for the teaching of "baptismal regeneration". But I haven't read and studied it through so I won't comment on it yet. Basically, I still tend to believe when taking all the bible
scriptures on baptism/salvation in consideration, the bible does not teach that salvation occurs at the time of baptism but rather it is at the time you place your faith in Christ. (See Ephesians
2:8-10, among many other verses) Also in Acts, note that many accounts tell of people receiving the holy spirit prior to water baptism. (Note verses in Acts re "forgiveness of sins", "receiving holy
spirit" etc.: Acts 10:43-48 , Acts 11:15-18, Acts 2 -whole chapter, etc.) And I don't think one receives the holy spirit
prior to having your sins forgiven. But that doesn't mean that baptism is not important--it is commanded by God. But at this point in time, I'm not about to get into a long discussion about
baptism--maybe in another post but this one is so long already!!
>>Kim writes:
>>Yes and kind of. :) I can say this from experience - it was similar for
>>me, in the KC church - as long as it appeared I was "open" to membership,
>>then people treated me in a quasi-member fashion. There was, however,
>>never total acceptance - until it appeared that I would be imminently
>>(re)baptized. And if you haven't read my post "A Chariot Ride" - you
>>should. It is the history of about two weeks of "breaking" - and my
>>ultimate decision to bail out.
I did read your post, and I must say, that is a rather intense "recruitment"
I would have been totally intimidated and it would have been very difficult
for me to "bail out". My experience was not like that at all, but rather I was encouraging
them by asking when I could study again. But, like you, I decided to think things through
before I committed to the ICC and that ultimately made me decide not to go thru with it.
My experience was more subtle, but I also did get the feeling that they were determined(?)
to persuade me to think "their" way. Or maybe it was just "paranoia" on my part! : )
>
>Personally, I went through the studies 2 1/2 times. The first time
>through, I didn't have much of a grasp about the Bible or being a
>Christian. I didn't have much of any sort of drive to do anything except
>keep coming around. Later, I decided I wanted to go through the studies
>again. <snipped>
I went through the first four studies (Word, Discipleship, Light & darkness, The Cross)
and cancelled the last study, which was to be on "The Church". Just prior to this, I had
brought up my concerns about what I had read/heard about the ICC. Up to this point I
even wanted to step up the pace a little because I was so eager to join! Prior to the studies,
I was fairly familiar with the bible so I understood pretty much what was presented.Just
enough for me to start questioning some of the "interpetations" and the practices of the
church. ( dating rules, attitudes/opinions of other churches & their members, involvment/unity
with other churches/other christians--rather, the lack of it! )
Okay, my last question--what is the videos they show during mid-week services that
show members giving testimonies on how happy they are to be a part of such a "dynamic &
growing church"? Just curious, because it seems to have made my friend who is in the OCC
a little more defensive about her church. Before, she used to acknowledge that "yes, perhaps
the mainland churches are a little cultish" but now it seems her opinion has changed, and she
gets defensive about any critical comment about the ICC/OCC.
dande...@aol.com
To the editor:
Since you have grouped the International Churches of Christ with some of the more apocolyptic cults ("Living on the Religious Fringe", April 7), some clarification is in order. While the ICC does
have a charismatic leader -- Kip McKean -- and a messianic fervor to plant churches in every major nation by the year 2000, it has not made any predictions about the end of the world.
As you have noted, some of the loudest criticisms of this damaging group have been voiced on college campuses. Although instances of coercive pressure to retain members certainly exist (you used the
term "blackmail"), campus administrators have likely been more concerned by the group's use of deceptive recruiting techniques, or violations of campus rules.
Thanks for shedding some light on the ICC and other groups.
Dave Anderson
VidEOshiro
Let us know if this letter gets published.
DAnder9518
In article <19970412100...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
video...@aol.com (VidEOshiro) writes:
>Let us know if this letter gets published.
Probably not, Eric. I think I sent it too late...
----->Dave