The Internet is another 'nation' to be evangelized according to the ICC
Mudpies
In article <measures-010...@term1-27.vta.west.net>,
meas...@mail.vcnet.com (R. L. Measures) writes:
>The good news is that Roger gets the last laugh when Mother Theresa, Mark
>Davis, and Richard L. Measures roast and toast for at least the next
>trillion years. The only hope is that Mark and Rich will perhaps get
some
>*consideration* for persecuting 'god's kingdom' on the Internet. To
>explain: by persecuting 'god's kingdom', Mark and Rich helped to prove
>that the icc is really and truly 'god's one true church'--just like Kip
>says--which is no doubt helping to keep "true christians" from falling
>away from 'god's kingdom'.....
Recently I read in a bulletin from the SF Church of Christ(my alma
mater)concerning the internet. It reads,
"The internet is like another nation to be evangelized and conquered for
God. It is a new culture, which is currently very dark and Godless.
Pornography and materialism are rampant. However, personal relationships
can be built on new levels, in new ways. Many people build new
friendships and maintain old ones through this medium. KCN is a mission
team to this new culture which involves people from every nation around
the world. Like a mission team, we don't always know where were going. It
is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
sacrifice. Most people don't understand why we're there or see the vision
of what can be accomplished. However we do, and God is with us!"
A friend of mine gave a lecture at a local university on the topic of
"Cults on the Internet" a clip of her lecture was shown on the news (KRON
channel 4, for the locals) I was shocked to realize that cultic groups are
using the internet as another medium to snag people. In a weird way I was
disappointed to hear that the ICC was doing the same. This of course was
months ago when I still felt some loyalty to the group and tried to
believe that they were just *different* and not a cult.
In the above article, it goes on to illustrate how a woman was met by a
guy name Mark Higuera( who is a current member in SF) via e-mail.
Eventually the woman ends up studying the Bible and becomes a member. I
wonder how this woman will be doing a year or two from now?
Thoughts and comments ...
Michelle C.
"A heart held humble will level and light your way"
Scott W. Schreiber
mud...@aol.com (Mudpies) wrote:
>It is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
>sacrifice.
Sounds like Roger talking about his leaders again.....
So now, for this NEW hard work, are they gonna pay these mission
teamers $50,000 a year for their "hard work" of chatting on the IRC?
Writing web pages?
Man, I just might join up for that!
Ovum
In article <4tr0la$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mud...@aol.com (Mudpies)
writes:
> KCN is a mission
>team to this new culture which involves people from every nation around
>the world. Like a mission team, we don't always know where were going.
It
>is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
>sacrifice. Most people don't understand why we're there or see the
vision
>of what can be accomplished. However we do, and God is with us!"
I seriously think this is why Roger posts on this newsgroup.
Scott W. Schreiber
ov...@aol.com (Ovum) wrote:
>I seriously think this is why Roger posts on this newsgroup.
I disagree. I think Roger is purposely NOT trying to evangelize here.
Just reading his posts they "sound" very different from the "Hey,
wanna study the Bible" thing....
TriciaAZ
In article <4trn8e$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ov...@aol.com (Ovum) writes:
>Subject: Re: The Internet is another 'nation' to be evangelized
according to
>the ICC
>From: ov...@aol.com (Ovum)
>Date: 1 Aug 1996 21:56:30 -0400
>
>In article <4tr0la$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mud...@aol.com (Mudpies)
>writes:
>
>> KCN is a mission
>>team to this new culture which involves people from every nation around
>>the world. Like a mission team, we don't always know where were going.
>It
>>is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
>>sacrifice. Most people don't understand why we're there or see the
>vision
>>of what can be accomplished. However we do, and God is with us!"
>
>I seriously think this is why Roger posts on this newsgroup.
>
>
Which is to accomplish something with the help of God?
Cults recruit, others use the internet for selfish purposes also. Does
that mean that anyone who uses the internet is using it for selfish
purposes or is a member of a cult? If Christian groups use the internet to
try to promote their church or to explain their points of view, is this
alone an indication of something sinister? Evangelism is not an evil
thing.
Through this newsgroup, I met EOshiro, and also had the opportunity to
visit his congregation. (Granted, I'm not likely to join the ICC any time
soon, but I did see many positive things about the Oahu church.)
People from this newsgroup have seen many destructive things happening at
the hands of others who are in the ICC. It doesn't do any good to argue
about whether or not they happened or to ask for proof that they did.
Most would agree that Christians should not harm one another. The FACT
that these things have happened and are continuing to happen in the ICC
(as well as in any other group of people) should be addressed. But if
anyone is interested in resolving these problems, it would take speaking
with those who are at fault.
I wonder if part of the reason Roger posts is 1). to defend his church
against general accusations, and 2). to facilitate the resolution of the
actual problems. My reason is more like the second, but I'm afraid I'm
starting to think it's hopeless. I guess it is best to ask directly:
What is your reason for posting, Roger? What are your reasons, everybody?
Patricia
Jason Choi
Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
: mud...@aol.com (Mudpies) wrote:
: >It is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
: >sacrifice.
: Sounds like Roger talking about his leaders again.....
: So now, for this NEW hard work, are they gonna pay these mission
: teamers $50,000 a year for their "hard work" of chatting on the IRC?
: Writing web pages?
: Man, I just might join up for that!
Sign me up, I could use the cash!
Scott W. Schreiber
tric...@aol.com (TriciaAZ) wrote:
> What are your reasons, everybody?
My reason is because the ICC has flaws in it's practice, and in it's
doctrines and theology. I post to try to shed light on the errors,
and I read to understand both views.
I think Roger posts "persecution bait." then when he's done reading he
can say "Look how much I suffered today!"
EOshiro
Patricia asks:
>What are your reasons, everybody?
Well, for one, what you wrote about why you think Roger posts:
>1). to defend his church against general accusations,
I personally have experienced very few or none of the things other people
have left the ICC for.
I'm also here as an example of an ICC member who is willing to listen and
accept people's accounts. I try not to post in ingnorance or denial, but
from a logical perspective.
If I can help in solving any problems, I'll try.
In short, I guess I'm here to balance the scales a little.
R.L. Measures
In article <4u4hf5$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tric...@aol.com (TriciaAZ)
wrote:
. . . . . .
>
> I wonder if part of the reason Roger posts is 1). to defend his church
> against general accusations, and 2). to facilitate the resolution of the
> actual problems. My reason is more like the second, but I'm afraid I'm
> starting to think it's hopeless. I guess it is best to ask directly:
> What is your reason for posting, Roger? What are your reasons, everybody?
>
I have a virulent disenchantment with people who deceive and rip off other
people in the name of god.
--Rich--
805-386-3734
R.L. Measures
. . . . . .
>
> I wonder if part of the reason Roger posts is 1). to defend his church
> against general accusations, and 2). to facilitate the resolution of the
> actual problems. My reason is more like the second, but I'm afraid I'm
> starting to think it's hopeless. I guess it is best to ask directly:
> What is your reason for posting, Roger? What are your reasons, everybody?
>
Perhaps I have a virulent disenchantment with people who deceive and rip
Jason Place
R.L. Measures wrote:
>
> In article <4u4hf5$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tric...@aol.com (TriciaAZ)
> wrote:
>
> . . . . . .
> >
> > I wonder if part of the reason Roger posts is 1). to defend his church
> > against general accusations, and 2). to facilitate the resolution of the
> > actual problems. My reason is more like the second, but I'm afraid I'm
> > starting to think it's hopeless. I guess it is best to ask directly:
> > What is your reason for posting, Roger? What are your reasons, everybody?
> >
> people in the name of god.
>
> --Rich--
> 805-386-3734
I post to discuss what my church teaches. There are some things I don't
understand or agree with. I think this is a good place to discuss them
since both members and non members can contribute. I try to talk about
these things face to face with other members but it sometimes turns into
a character/faith/struggle/sin thing. Don't get me wrong, some members
are very patient and understanding of my questions, but alas, most would
like to label me weak than question the church.
Jason
memeber SFCoC
Scott W. Schreiber
Jason Place <ja...@macmail.sonicsys.com> wrote:
>but alas, most would like to label me weak than question the church.
>
>Jason
>memeber SFCoC
THAT is the sign of a big problem
Maybe you should find Roger and ask him, face to face...I'm sure he'd
be happy to enlighten you.
Gintas Jazbutis
>> I wonder if part of the reason Roger posts is 1). to defend his church
>> against general accusations, and 2). to facilitate the resolution of the
>> actual problems. My reason is more like the second, but I'm afraid I'm
>> starting to think it's hopeless. I guess it is best to ask directly:
>> What is your reason for posting, Roger? What are your reasons, everybody?
I'm doing it so I don't have to go out evangelizing.
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
SpeakerForTheDead
Jason Place (ja...@macmail.sonicsys.com) wrote:
: I post to discuss what my church teaches. There are some things I don't
: since both members and non members can contribute. I try to talk about
: these things face to face with other members but it sometimes turns into
: a character/faith/struggle/sin thing. Don't get me wrong, some members
: Jason
: memeber SFCoC
There's the warning sign. In the ICC, what members believe is
essentially determined by those at the highest end of the hierarchy. It's
very disenchanting to find out that in the parade to save souls at all
costs, important questions are brushed aside or frowned on. If you still
disagree or dont understand a church teaching, it's frustrating to
constantly run into the standard replies; "You have a bad heart. You
really need to repent", "You're struggling with X, so of course you're not
going to be able to understand this", etc. As if there existed a
christian who's not struggling with something, who doesn't have a bad heart
(the ICC insists that all of us have bad hearts, members and non), etc.
I remember being in situations where I mentioned some verses I'd
read in romans that I thought went against what the church was teaching on
salvation. My discipler replied, basically saying that from the pattern we
see in the New Testament, predestination just didn't make sense. I replied
again, saying that there were some verses in the gospels that support
predestination, to which he replied something to the effect that I'd be
doing a lot better if I were studying the bible with somebody. Ugh, I
shiver when I remember how much pressure was put on us to go out and "Get a
study". In any event, I didn't think he answered the question, and
disagreed with his reply, so the discussion shifted to the standard safety
net (which is foolproof; all christians sin. If doctrine is unintelligible
while any sin is present, then how did kip ever figure it all out? That
and the fact that paul wrote most of the NT and calls himself the worst of
sinners dont sit well with this ICC practice).
R. L. Measures
In article <4ufcj8$a...@netnews.upenn.edu>, cla...@blue.seas.upenn.edu
(SpeakerForTheDead) wrote:
++++++++++++++++++
This is the most enlightening post I have read on arcb-c this summer.
Nice going.
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--Rich-- (805) 386 3734
Bryan Erik Slatner
In article <4tr0la$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mud...@aol.com (Mudpies) had
the following to say:
>Recently I read in a bulletin from the SF Church of Christ(my alma
>mater)concerning the internet. It reads,
>
>"The internet is like another nation to be evangelized and conquered for
>God. It is a new culture, which is currently very dark and Godless.
>Pornography and materialism are rampant. However, personal relationships
>can be built on new levels, in new ways. Many people build new
>friendships and maintain old ones through this medium. KCN is a mission
>team to this new culture which involves people from every nation around
>the world. Like a mission team, we don't always know where were going. It
>is not glamorous, and involves hard work, late nights, and personal
>sacrifice. Most people don't understand why we're there or see the vision
>of what can be accomplished. However we do, and God is with us!"
??!@??@#$?$??$?%?!?!?!
????
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dear God, I wish I'd had a copy of that bulletin at the final meeting I had
with the ICC leaders in Colorado Springs. Dave Anderson should remember well
the number of aspersions cast on the good 'ol 'net that evening (I think the
most memorable quote, from a Denver evangelist, was "I don't think most
disciples will ever get into the Internet, because being a disciple is about
building relationships with real people.")
<sigh>
Dang it, Michelle, where was this in APRIL when I needed it?!?!?! :P :P :P
Love in Christ,
Bryan
Shalon Donyale Goldsby
IF THE ICC MANAGES TO EVANGELIZE OVER THE INTERNET:
1.) The leaders will have to finger people to fill out their stats
sheets.
2.) Any disciple owning computer would have to be carefully monitored
due to the amount of pornagraphy on the Net-- both spiritual and carnal.
3.) Most disciples would have to sell their computers and give up access
to the Net due to a.) contribution money for Special Missions b.) there
is no way of monitoring someone's computer usage, and c.) it would, in
many cases, be their "Issac".
4.) It would take all the fun out of breaking sessions.
"First Principles" and the "Medical Analysis of the Crucifixion of
Christ" are all top secret documents. No way is that stuff going on the
Net. It's hard to deceive peeople when they have time and a recycling
bin icon on their side.
Benjamin Raymond
Shalon Donyale Goldsby wrote:
>
> IF THE ICC MANAGES TO EVANGELIZE OVER THE INTERNET:
>
> 1.) The leaders will have to finger people to fill out their stats
> sheets.
Wow. That's pretty good. :)
> 2.) Any disciple owning computer would have to be carefully monitored
> due to the amount of pornagraphy on the Net-- both spiritual and carnal.
Yep. They could use Net Nanny or Cyber-Discipler.
> 3.) Most disciples would have to sell their computers and give up access
> to the Net due to a.) contribution money for Special Missions b.) there
> is no way of monitoring someone's computer usage, and c.) it would, in
> many cases, be their "Issac".
Unfortunately.
> 4.) It would take all the fun out of breaking sessions.
Not at all!! CUSeeMe is in *color* now!!
> "First Principles" and the "Medical Analysis of the Crucifixion of
> Christ" are all top secret documents. No way is that stuff going on the
> Net. It's hard to deceive peeople when they have time and a recycling
> bin icon on their side.
We'll just have to provide them ourselves, I suppose. Or have they
copyrighted "God's teachings?"
in Him,
Ben
I-Chun Lin
Shalon Donyale Goldsby <sg...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>IF THE ICC MANAGES TO EVANGELIZE OVER THE INTERNET:
>
>1.) The leaders will have to finger people to fill out their stats
>sheets.
[Sarcasm On]
I had a nightmare last night, in which this newsgroup was started by
the ICC, which determined its purpose and procedures.
- The official newsgroup charter is "friendship, love and fellowship,"
in order to recruit unsuspecting readers.
- The actual charter is every aspect of your daily life. Topics such
as your checkbook, college major, hairstyle, sleep habits, dating,
etc. are fair game.
- Having joined the newsgroup, readers must read every post, post at
least once a day, and forward at least one post per day to a
potential convert. They must spend at least 36 hours a week doing
these activities.
- If you wish to take a job at a company without access to
alt.religion.christian.boston-church, you will be rebuked and
pressured to not do so.
[Sarcasm Off]
[Ms.] I-Chun ("ee-CHUN") Lin
i...@leland.Stanford.EDU
TriciaAZ
In article <323312...@together.net>, Benjamin Raymond
<fray...@together.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: The Internet is another 'nation' to be evangelized
according to
>the ICC
>From: Benjamin Raymond <fray...@together.net>
>Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 14:39:45 -0400
>
>Shalon Donyale Goldsby wrote:
>>
>> IF THE ICC MANAGES TO EVANGELIZE OVER THE INTERNET:
>>
<snip>
>> "First Principles" and the "Medical Analysis of the Crucifixion of
>> Christ" are all top secret documents. No way is that stuff going on
the
>> Net. It's hard to deceive peeople when they have time and a recycling
>> bin icon on their side.
>
>We'll just have to provide them ourselves, I suppose. Or have they
>copyrighted "God's teachings?"
>
>in Him,
>Ben
>
I've seen them available before. (Even from ICC sources, but I think they
just provided the scriptures used, and left out all the "get the person to
agree to this's".) I didn't have much success getting the actual First
Principles studies from ICC friends (other than the two I went through
with them), but I might try again. The only person who was especially
obstinate in not pointing out where I might see a copy of the studies was
a critic of the ICC. He got the notion (perhaps correctly) that I would
view them somewhat positively, and advised me to, "seek your devotionals
in the Baptist church where you attend". In the words of Chris G., "I'm
an adult", so I'll seek whatever reading material I please, for whatever
purpose I think is worthwhile, and hold whatever opinion of it that I gain
from my reading!
Patricia
jjar...@cswnet.com
I would love to see copies of these two documents if you are ever
successful in getting them!