San Francisco Church of Christ- Rating their attendance
Jason
In article <4t9iqc$e...@herald.concentric.net>, gin...@concentric.net
(Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
> In article <4t91u8$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, lkm...@aol.com (LKMSIMS)
wrote:
> >Another example of rewards and punishment mentality. I was recently given
> >a bulletin from the Berkeley sector and they had a rating scale to
> >determine the difference between good, great, and our favorite word
> >"awesome" attendance. I just had to laugh when I read it. Here it goes
> >....
> >
> >For the Campus:
> >54=(bad)
> >66=good
> >73=great
> >80=awesome
> >
> >For the Singles and Marrieds:
> >
> >Anything below 97=bad
> >97=good
> >108=great
> >119=awesome
> >
> >For this particular week the campus recieved a rating of "bad" and the
> >Singles and Marrieds received a "good" rating. I feel sorry for my
> >friends in this group that they are being subject to such a rating system.
> >You know what this says is "woe to those who miss the given mark, we're
> >going to publicly humiliate you."
> >How would someone visiting interpret this if they saw this for the first
> >time? It also sets up the tendency to be competitive.
>
> Sorry ICC members, but if this account is true, it documents
> legalism, plain and simple. The call: REPENT! Wonder
> if Roger came up with the rating system...
>
> Gintas
>
> -------------------------------
> Gintas Jazbutis
> gin...@concentric.net
It's true. I've seen similar rating system's at De Anza College in the
past.(De Anza is a community college in the South Bay Area) It is easy to
get caught up in numbers but that's not what it is about. I'm a member of
the SFCoC and I can honestly say I don't like a few things in the church.
I want them to change. Dating, extreme discipleship, eliteism, morning
enforced quiet times, and misinformation to name a few.
I'm sure there have been many ex-ICCers that have tried to do what I'm
doing. The church is right on in so many areas and has a strong fellowship
and a lot of people who *REALLY* love God.
Jason
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
LKMSIMS (lkm...@aol.com) wrote:
: Another example of rewards and punishment mentality. I was recently given
: a bulletin from the Berkeley sector and they had a rating scale to
: determine the difference between good, great, and our favorite word
: "awesome" attendance. I just had to laugh when I read it. Here it goes
: For the Campus:
: 54=(bad)
: 66=good
: 73=great
: 80=awesome
: For the Singles and Marrieds:
: Anything below 97=bad
: 97=good
: 108=great
: 119=awesome
: For this particular week the campus recieved a rating of "bad" and the
: Singles and Marrieds received a "good" rating. I feel sorry for my
: friends in this group that they are being subject to such a rating system.
: You know what this says is "woe to those who miss the given mark, we're
: going to publicly humiliate you."
Getting constructive feedback on your evangelism is not "public
humiliation". If the marrieds did a good job of reaching out to
their friends, family, classmates, etc., praying for them asking God with
faith, and brought a lot of people to hear the word of God and study the
Bible, that is good. If we were in sin, didn't pray, got distracted, and
were fearful to evangelize, then the "bad" attendance just shows that we
reaped what we sowed.
: How would someone visiting interpret this if they saw this for the first
: time? It also sets up the tendency to be competitive.
They'd conclude that this is a church that has goals for its attendance,
that the people in it are not content to sit back and let the world pass
by, but are actively working and praying for its evangelization. It is a
church where having 135% of membership in attendance is barely "Good".
(What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
members show up on a Sunday!) Sin and mediocrity are not the standard;
the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
commitment of following Jesus.
It sets up the tendency to be competitive? I think disciples are already
quite competitive--we are compteting to stop Satan from winning the
spiritual battle for the souls of this world. I hope that the campus
students feel inspired that if the marrieds, most of whom have kids and
other responsibilities of life, can rely on God, share their faith, and
bring people, that the singles and campus can do the same thing. I hope
that the marrieds see that the campus students need some encouragement
and inspiration to be successful, and help them out, and will continue to
be an example for others to imitate.
Roger Poehlmann
member, SF Church of Christ
(International Church of Christ)
Smlleecat6
>(What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
>members show up on a Sunday!)
Perhaps denominational churches should take the lead from the
"non-denominational" ICC and force their members to go.
R.L. Measures
> Another example of rewards and punishment mentality. I was recently given
> a bulletin from the Berkeley sector and they had a rating scale to
> determine the difference between good, great, and our favorite word
> "awesome" attendance. I just had to laugh when I read it. Here it goes
> ...
>
> For the Campus:
> 54=(bad)
> 66=good
> 73=great
> 80=awesome
>
> For the Singles and Marrieds:
>
> Anything below 97=bad
> 97=good
> 108=great
> 119=awesome
>
> For this particular week the campus recieved a rating of "bad" and the
> Singles and Marrieds received a "good" rating. I feel sorry for my
> friends in this group that they are being subject to such a rating system.
> You know what this says is "woe to those who miss the given mark, we're
> going to publicly humiliate you."
> How would someone visiting interpret this if they saw this for the first
> time? It also sets up the tendency to be competitive.
-----------
...Shades of Amway/Scamway and the Moonies.
If a campus rating of 80 is 'awesome', what, pray tell, does it take to
achieve the coveted 'totally-awesome' rating?
--Rich--
805-386-3734
LKMSIMS
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann)wrote:
>They'd conclude that this is a church that has goals for its attendance,
>that the people in it are not content to sit back and let the world pass
>by, but are actively working and praying for its >evangelization. It is
a
>church where having 135% of membership in attendance >is barely "Good".
Wishful thinking ...
the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
commitment of following Jesus.
Nah, their into looking good on the outside and trying to find a niche in
the popular culture within the Bay Area. In my experience with the church
it has turned more people away from Jesus and it has done an excellent job
in doing so.
Scott W. Schreiber
Ian Euguene Charleton <iec...@jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote:
>Who set up this scale?
The ICC leaders.
>Who is s/he to judge a group of people as "Bad" "Good" "Awesome" or whatever based on some number?
The ICC leaders.
>Where is the scriptural example of Jesus, Paul or anyone else judging a church on its numbers?
In the minds of the ICC leaders.
>But where is the
>scriptural foundation for this practice of being numerically judgemental?
>Or being judgmental at all?
In the ICC leaders handbook.
>The original post was about the SFCoC, not about denominational church
>attendance. Interesting sidenote, but let's stay focused here.
That's not a sidenote. It's a topic switching tactic I like to refer
to as "the dance." An attempt by a member to turn the tables or twist
the point of the thread; to "derail" a train of thought.
>> Roger Poehlmann
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ICC Leader. {Bible talk at least, no?}
"Submit and Obey" --Roger Poehlmann
Scott W. Schreiber
ja...@sonicsys.com (Jason) wrote:
>It's true.
>I want them to change. Dating, extreme discipleship, eliteism, morning
>enforced quiet times, and misinformation to name a few.
Now keep your eye out for Roger. He's gonna find you one
Sunday/Wednesday and "disciple" you about the "submit and obey"
scriptures.
Spumoni (NJ Verenini)
In article <4tc007$c...@madrid.visi.net> sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber) writes:
-Ian Euguene Charleton <iec...@jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote:
[ ... deletia ... ]
->The original post was about the SFCoC, not about denominational church
->attendance. Interesting sidenote, but let's stay focused here.
-
-That's not a sidenote. It's a topic switching tactic I like to refer
-to as "the dance." An attempt by a member to turn the tables or twist
-the point of the thread; to "derail" a train of thought.
-
->> Roger Poehlmann
- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ICC Leader. {Bible talk at least, no?}
-
-
-"Submit and Obey" --Roger Poehlmann
- member, SF Church of Christ
- (International Church of Christ)
-
Watch it, or you'll trigger a self-righteous 'persecution' rant. ;-)
I like "the dance." Especially the third and fourth steps, which are "two
giant logical leaps to the right, stick foot in mouth." Great at parties.
--
annoying .sig, version 3.1a, ©96 SpooSoft, Inc.
---
IRC: Spumoni | C7 B1 17 FA 14 5F 8B BD 08 71 68 64 3F A2 85 65
ftp: spunet.znet.com | "I have nothing to say, and I am saying it."
www: spunet.znet.com | -John Cage
James Winter
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger Poehlmann) wrote:
>Getting constructive feedback on your evangelism is not "public
>humiliation"
Roger, Roger, Roger....
Now you and I both know that this is not *con*structive feedback but
rather *de*structive because it *is* (to use your own words) public
humiliation when you do not attend some kind of service of function
because not attending a service or function according to the ICC is
SIN. period. And when I missed one midweek (for *very* good reasons
that I will not get into here, but would be happy to talk to you
about), I was told I was in sin and needed to repent of this sin and
"get advice" about my schedule from then on. And, yes it was not a
private matter between me and my discipler but rather a public matter
that members of the Fresno church asked me why I had missed and that
it was an indication of "being in sin". How humiliating! of course
it isn't constructive Roger! Those people had no idea as to my
reasons for not being there (even though I tried very hard to explain
the situation to them) Who are they and *who are you* to tell me
that being at midweek is more pleasing to God than some other
God-serving activity I was involved in?
>(What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
>members show up on a Sunday!) Sin and mediocrity are not the >standard;
>the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
>commitment of following Jesus.
This could not be more clear. You have positively linked not
attending with sin just like the Fresno church did. I am obviously
not advocating to never attend meetings but I had *never* missed
until this one time!
The jist of this issue is that you think you know what is spiritually
better for me a lot better than I and you couldn't be more wrong.
Can't the Holy Spirit work through me just as well as through you??
Of course denom churches would love to have 90% attendance. The
reason they don't is because they're not telling their members that
not attending is sin, because that is false!! Isn't that obvious??
(Now of course you will quote "do not give up meeting together..."
Where does that say I'm in sin because I missed a midweek??
As a former member of the Fresno church whose leader is discipled by
the leader of the San Francisco church I have no doubt that what has
happened to me is happening in San Fran. After all, we were
ultimately discipled by the same people weren't we??
Walter Semerenko
On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:49:56 GMT sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber)
wrote:
>That's not a sidenote. It's a topic switching tactic I like to refer
>to as "the dance." An attempt by a member to turn the tables or twist
>the point of the thread; to "derail" a train of thought.
Scott, I can certainly relate to what you are saying. The Orlando
Church of Christ used this tactic to their fullest potential. The
"dance" tactic is subtly dodging the issue, or avoiding the question.
These are situations that occured while my brief staty at the OCoC:
I questioned a member, "Are there any diciples besides those in the
ICC?"
"Well, we don't see any...look at how many baptist denominations there
are..the ICC is one church", the member responded.
"Have you been to any churches besides the ICC?"
"No."
I questioned at least 10 different disciples and asked them, "What do
I have to do to be a disciple?"
I got answers like:
"You need to have a heart for God"
"You need to be convicted on what the Word of God says"
I was talking to a member and I sensed that he was giving me a
run-around so I decided to drop a bombshell.
"In order for me to be a disciple of Christ, do I have to be a
disciple of the International Church of Christ?"
The guy looked at me and pondered for a few seconds and said, "Yes"
(I was suprised that he was being honest. Another member I talked to
continued his "dance" after I asked him this question!)
I was discussing whether baptism was necessary for salvation with the
campus leader. When I raised some problematic passages, he tried to
"break" me by saying, "Walter, you know a lot about the bible...I
don't want to get in a doctrinal debate with you...what important is
how's your life...do you have problems with jealousy...do you have
problems with lust...DO YOU MASTURBATE" The leader gave me a stern
look.
"Are you asking me a question?", I responded.
This totally threw off the campus leaders tactic.
Walter.
LeMel HW
Roger wrote:
> If we were in sin, didn't pray, got distracted, and
> were fearful to evangelize, then the "bad" attendance just shows that we
> reaped what we sowed.
I don't know about you, but I've witnessed some ICC'ers in deep sin
(immorality, deception, etc.) generate some big numbers (of visitors).
Shouldn't your rating system consist of some other benchmark of growth?
I think number of visitors is an important stat. What is harmful is that
it's usage is a small contribution to a larger problem - encouraging a
focus on numbers and performance.
Gintas Jazbutis
R.L. Measures wrote:
> If a campus rating of 80 is 'awesome', what, pray tell, does it take to
> achieve the coveted 'totally-awesome' rating?
>
> --Rich--
> 805-386-3734
Gosh, Rich, don't you know that coveting is a sin?
Gintas Jazbutis
LeMel HW wrote:
>
> Roger wrote:
>
> > If we were in sin, didn't pray, got distracted, and
> > were fearful to evangelize, then the "bad" attendance just shows that we
>
> > reaped what we sowed.
>
> I don't know about you, but I've witnessed some ICC'ers in deep sin
> (immorality, deception, etc.) generate some big numbers (of visitors).
> Shouldn't your rating system consist of some other benchmark of growth?
>
> I think number of visitors is an important stat.
What might be some more important stats, and some
less important stats?
R. L. Measures
In article <4te4gv$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, lkm...@aol.com (LKMSIMS) wrote:
>
>. . . In my experience with the church
> it has turned more people away from Jesus and it has done an excellent job
> in doing so.
Yes.
--Rich-- (805) 386 3734
Scott W. Schreiber
sw88...@ucflink.com (Walter Semerenko) wrote:
>.DO YOU MASTURBATE
Ahhh yes. The old mastubation issue. Love that one.
Scott W. Schreiber
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>James Winter (James_...@msn.com) wrote:
>: And when I missed one midweek (for *very* good reasons
>: that I will not get into here, but would be happy to talk to you
>: about), I was told I was in sin and needed to repent of this sin and
>: "get advice" about my schedule from then on.
>Your sin affected the whole church-
So Roger, without knowing his reason for not being there, you condemn
it as sin. That's too bad for fellows like Bret. He works 2nd shift,
so he can't go to practically anything during the week, and when he
moves to day shift, he won't make it to Sundays but once every 6
weeks, due to the nature of the current duty rotation.
Bret, did you know you were in such grievous sin?
When the Bible speaks of "fellowship," it doesn't mean you must attend
every service ever put on by your church. It means fellowship. Do
you know what that is, or does the ICC teach that it means church
services? I can fellowship with other Christians almost any time of
any day (and I usually do when I get the chance).
You can't just tell someone they're in sin if they miss a service.
Like I said, you're putting an imense burden on my buddy Bret.
>I don't mean to sound harsh; it's just that if you're going to call
>yourself by the name of 'disciple' or 'Christian' there comes with it a
>deep devotion and commitment and love for God that you committed
>yourself to on your baptism day.
Why do you assume his devotion to God is any less just because he
didn't or couldn't get to the service?
I think you're confusing devotion to God with devotion to the ICC and
it's attendance stats.
nancy
On Jul 30, 1996 01:03:15 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
Rating their attendance>, 'rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann)'
wrote:
>: rogn...@netcom.com (Roger Poehlmann) wrote:
>Hey, when I sat down to study the Bible, we looked at Acts 2:42 ("they
>devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship").
>Devoted. I'm devoted to my wife. She's the one I'm committed to. I
>took my marriage vows, and made my decision. Likewise, when I joined the
>ICC, I devoted myself to God and to serve his kingdom. I don't cheat on
>my wife one day a month, and I don't miss church services.
Oh and I suppose all non ICC members do???
Hey Rog, remember what Jesus said..."If there is anyone here who is without
sin, let him cast the first stone!"
Can you read people's minds Roger? How can you judge people like this when
you have no idea what is in their hearts???
<snip>
>Your sin affected the whole church--you are a part of the church, and you
>didn't show up.
Boy, he is SUCH a sinner, not going to church one time!!! I guess he's
going to burn in hell for that huh Roger??
>The Bible actually links not attending meetings with leaving God
>(Hebrews 10:24-30), not just "sin". Hebrews 3:12-13 likewise talks about
>the need for daily encouragement, so as not to be hardened by sin's
>deceitfulness. Yes, there is a link between not attending church
>services and becoming weak spiritually--it is borne out by these
>Scriptures as well as the examples.
Yes, we've all seen those regular churchgoers in the ICC, you know, the
ones who judge everyone else but themselves...
>I don't mean to sound harsh; it's just that if you're going to call
>yourself by the name of 'disciple' or 'Christian' there comes with it a
>deep devotion and commitment and love for God that you committed
>yourself to on your baptism day. If you're an Oakland Raider, you come
>to the practices and the games. If you're a Marine, you show up for
>duty. If you're a disciple of Jesus, you go to church.
Oh Roger,
You cannot force people to go to church by bullying them into it, people go
because they want to. Do you really think God wants you there worshipping
him if you only went because your discipler guilted you into it???
nancy
Jan Sloan
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann wrote:
>
> LKMSIMS (lkm...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Another example of rewards and punishment mentality. I was recently given
> : a bulletin from the Berkeley sector and they had a rating scale to
> : determine the difference between good, great, and our favorite word
> : "awesome" attendance. I just had to laugh when I read it. Here it goes
> : ...
>
> : For the Campus:
> : 54=(bad)
> : 66=good
> : 73=great
> : 80=awesome
>
> : For the Singles and Marrieds:
>
> : Anything below 97=bad
> : 97=good
> : 108=great
> : 119=awesome
>
> : For this particular week the campus recieved a rating of "bad" and the
> : Singles and Marrieds received a "good" rating. I feel sorry for my
> : friends in this group that they are being subject to such a rating system.
> : You know what this says is "woe to those who miss the given mark, we're
> : going to publicly humiliate you."
>
> their friends, family, classmates, etc., praying for them asking God with
> faith, and brought a lot of people to hear the word of God and study the
> were fearful to evangelize, then the "bad" attendance just shows that we
> reaped what we sowed.
>
Roger, just becasue people do not show up does not necessarily mean that
*anyone* was "in sin", etc. Roger, I see you equating numbers of visitors with
spirituality.
When I first saw that "new and improved" stat sheet here in the DC church I
really thought it was a bad joke. It is more complex that some of my company's
accounting sheets! Many folks that I know hate the sheet. (I can't stand it
myself). Some voice their opinion, some do not.
> : How would someone visiting interpret this if they saw this for the first
> : time? It also sets up the tendency to be competitive.
>
> They'd conclude that this is a church that has goals for its attendance,
> that the people in it are not content to sit back and let the world pass
> by, but are actively working and praying for its evangelization. It is a
> church where having 135% of membership in attendance is barely "Good".
> (What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
> members show up on a Sunday!) Sin and mediocrity are not the standard;
> the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
> commitment of following Jesus.
Roger is that your opinion or is it based on you actually showing the sheet
to someone outside the church? The non-members that I know who have seen that
sheet think the sheet is very odd.
I'm sure whoever came up with the idea of that sheet had good intentions, but
it really is more complex and (to me) rediculous that it needs to be.
>
> It sets up the tendency to be competitive? I think disciples are already
> quite competitive--we are compteting to stop Satan from winning the
> spiritual battle for the souls of this world. I hope that the campus
> students feel inspired that if the marrieds, most of whom have kids and
> other responsibilities of life, can rely on God, share their faith, and
> bring people, that the singles and campus can do the same thing. I hope
> that the marrieds see that the campus students need some encouragement
> and inspiration to be successful, and help them out, and will continue to
> be an example for others to imitate.
On competitiveness (in the context of the original note) - Us mission group
leaders also had a "decathalon" sheet to fill out last week. This sheet
basically listed the studies and baptisms over the last month. One sister, who
has a tendancy to focus on people way too much (she also leads a mission group
i.e., house church), made a special effort to check out every other mission
group's statistics for the decathalon. You know, she was hanging around the
sheet collector to get a glance of how the other groups were "doing" compared
to hers. Now, is she focused on God or numbers???
Jan Sloan
Current Member of the DC Church of Christ
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
: >Getting constructive feedback on your evangelism is not "public
: >humiliation"
: Now you and I both know that this is not *con*structive feedback but
: rather *de*structive because it *is* (to use your own words) public
: humiliation when you do not attend some kind of service of function
: because not attending a service or function according to the ICC is
: SIN. period.
Hey, when I sat down to study the Bible, we looked at Acts 2:42 ("they
devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship").
Devoted. I'm devoted to my wife. She's the one I'm committed to. I
took my marriage vows, and made my decision. Likewise, when I joined the
ICC, I devoted myself to God and to serve his kingdom. I don't cheat on
my wife one day a month, and I don't miss church services.
: And when I missed one midweek (for *very* good reasons
: that I will not get into here, but would be happy to talk to you
: about), I was told I was in sin and needed to repent of this sin and
: "get advice" about my schedule from then on.
: And, yes it was not a
: private matter between me and my discipler but rather a public matter
: that members of the Fresno church asked me why I had missed and that
: it was an indication of "being in sin". How humiliating! of course
: it isn't constructive Roger! Those people had no idea as to my
: reasons for not being there (even though I tried very hard to explain
: the situation to them) Who are they and *who are you* to tell me
: that being at midweek is more pleasing to God than some other
: God-serving activity I was involved in?
Your sin affected the whole church--you are a part of the church, and you
didn't show up. From what you said, all the other Christian brothers and
sisters were saying was that you should "get advice about your schedule"
and repent. What's so wrong with that? Why not just repent and say,
"You know, I wasn't sitting at home watching T.V., I was doing something
truly worthwhile with the time. But you're right--since I'm part of the
Fresno Church of Christ, when the Fresno Church of Christ meets, I need
to be there to encourage the other disciples, to help out in the
children's ministry, to help with ushering, to assist my discipleship
group leader, to read the Scriptures, pray with the disciples, give a
ride to my friend who I'm studying with to become a disciple. I wasn't
there, I missed out, and I hurt a lot of people by my unfaithfulness, so I
repent."
: >(What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
: >members show up on a Sunday!) Sin and mediocrity are not the >standard;
: >the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
: >commitment of following Jesus.
: This could not be more clear. You have positively linked not
: attending with sin just like the Fresno church did. I am obviously
: not advocating to never attend meetings but I had *never* missed
: until this one time!
The Bible actually links not attending meetings with leaving God
(Hebrews 10:24-30), not just "sin". Hebrews 3:12-13 likewise talks about
the need for daily encouragement, so as not to be hardened by sin's
deceitfulness. Yes, there is a link between not attending church
services and becoming weak spiritually--it is borne out by these
Scriptures as well as the examples.
I don't mean to sound harsh; it's just that if you're going to call
yourself by the name of 'disciple' or 'Christian' there comes with it a
deep devotion and commitment and love for God that you committed
yourself to on your baptism day. If you're an Oakland Raider, you come
to the practices and the games. If you're a Marine, you show up for
duty. If you're a disciple of Jesus, you go to church.
Roger Poehlmann
member, SF Church of Christ
(International Church of Christ)
LeMel HW
>> I think number of visitors is an important stat.
>>What might be some more important stats, and some
>>less important stats?
>>
>>Gintas
>>-------------------------------
>> Gintas Jazbutis
>> gin...@concentric.net
Now you got me a'thinkin'. I think number of visitors (read: any stat) is
important in that it demonstrates a concern for how effective a church is
being at outreach, or even retention.
Of course, how can you ever hope to pin a measurement on something so
esoteric, but gathering data (e.g. temperature, heart rate) is a way to
help paint a picture of the health of the organism, though these "stats"
don't implicitly define the individual.
In the case of the ICC, you *are* defined by your stats. ("bad, good,
awesome" as per the scale)
I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
individual worth (or state of salvation).
Smlleecat6
>Jan Sloan
Wow! It is *very* refreshing to see an ICC member and leader who is
"real" (AKA not a plastic people pleaser). I know there are a lot of
people like this but unfortunately many keep their thoughts to themselves
because they are afraid of being rebuked for being divisive.
Does anyone remember going to or hearing a tape of the friday night
congregational devotional where Al Baird became the lead evangelist of the
BCC? He talked about the ICC changing from being an aircraft carrier to a
battleship. Or maybe it was the other way around. He talked about
meeting the needs of Boston instead of sending all the 'trained' people
out on mission teams. He talked about a lot of things that would have
made the church 'a kinder and gentler' church. He may have even used
those terms.
Well I was in the audience and as he was speaking about these changes that
were somewhat radical and for the better, people were cheering very, very
loudly and saying things like ' amen' and 'wow, it's about time'. To me
it seemed like a giant burden had been removed from these people. But the
thing is that up until that point, many of these people who were so
excited were just going along with the status quo and not saying anything
about things they knew were wrong.
But then of course they removed him from the lead evangelist position and
went back to 'Kip's Kingdom'.
Catherine Hampton
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: I can't read people's minds, but I can see if someone's not at church.
: If I'm not at church, I'm in sin. It's the same standard for everyone,
Oh, that sinful flu I had earlier this summer.... <wry grin>
Roger -- are you capable of seeing anything in other than absolute
terms? And do you realize how =dumb= you sound when you say stuff
like this.
A lot of good ideas, like any other good tool, can become bad things
when misused or used to extremes. Fasting is a good idea and an old
practice of the Church. Fast too much and you risk destroying your
physical health and warping your spiritual perspective. (The Desert
Fathers, in particular, have a lot to say about this.) Giving money
and other material goods away to help support the Church or feed
the hungry is a good thing. Overdoing it leads to poverty and becoming
dependent on others for your support, and can also lead to pride and
arrogance if you base your self-image on what you do.
I could go on just about forever on this theme, because there is almost
nothing good that can't be made into something bad if it's taken to
extremes. As C. S. Lewis had the demon Screwtape put it, the devil
believes that "all extremes are good, except extreme love for the
Enemy." (The devil in this story calls God "the Enemy".)
I get the impression that there is no place for balance, reason, or
compromise in anything you believe. This is not right.
Catherine
COneill182
>>: rogn...@netcom.com (Roger Poehlmann) wrote:
>
>>Devoted. I'm devoted to my wife. She's the one I'm committed to. I
>>took my marriage vows, and made my decision. Likewise, when I joined
the
>>ICC, I devoted myself to God and to serve his kingdom. I don't cheat on
>>my wife one day a month, and I don't miss church services.
>>Your sin affected the whole church--you are a part of the church, and
you
>>didn't show up. From what you said, all the other Christian brothers
and
>>sisters were saying was that you should "get advice about your schedule"
>>and repent. What's so wrong about that?
Yes, Roger, you're right - we all have many devotions and
commitments. Along with a commitment to God, there are also commitments
we all have to spouses, children, family, friendships, and jobs, etc. But
if you truly have a relationship with God, you carry him with you in ALL
that you do. Going to all church services doesn't make you a christian or
a disciple, it's how you actually live your life.
In my experience with the ICC, " getting advice about your schedule",
actually meant "don"t schedule ANYTHING that might interfere with being
able to attend all church functions". So in your eyes, my husband
sinned when he missed two church services while out of town on a business
trip. In your eyes I sinned when I went to my 2nd grader's School program
rather than attend yet another "Meet Your Neighbor" potluck. If I work
weekends and can't go to my bible talk's prayer walk, am I now in sin and
in need of repentance? I sinned when I missed midweek because my son had
his tonsils out, and this affected the whole church???
I don't mean to sound harsh, Roger, ... but I'm concerned about
what this says about your heart.... <G>
karen liu
On 30 Jul 1996, LeMel HW wrote:
>
> In the case of the ICC, you *are* defined by your stats. ("bad, good,
> awesome" as per the scale)
>
> I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
> simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
> individual worth (or state of salvation).
>
yes...on staff...who have never brought out people to church (as in
baptism or even were consistent with having people visit) but it was
obvious that they did try to have people out...
it's more of a matter of whether you have tried or "no, i didn't invite
anyone out" and therefore there were no visitors...then that becomes a
question of the heart
i also want to point out that many people who have been able to bring out
many people and see them become members have not been put on staff or put
in a position of leadership...
it's a person's character/spirituality that determine how "awesome" the
person is doing in terms of spirituality...and it is usually noticeable in
terms of impact
i hope that explains the whole stats thing....
from the everlasting
clouseau hiding from the lunatic dreyfus in an igloo....
just a little inside joke i do..for the pink panther/inspecteur clouseau
impaired (hahaha..politically correct now?)
please forgive my typing...there is a lot of lag on this server
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
nancy (n1...@usa.pipeline.com) wrote:
: On Jul 30, 1996 01:03:15 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-: >Hey, when I sat down to study the Bible, we looked at Acts 2:42 ("they
: >took my marriage vows, and made my decision. Likewise, when I joined the
: >ICC, I devoted myself to God and to serve his kingdom. I don't cheat on
: >my wife one day a month, and I don't miss church services.
: Oh and I suppose all non ICC members do???
: sin, let him cast the first stone!"
: Can you read people's minds Roger? How can you judge people like this when
: you have no idea what is in their hearts???
If I'm not at church, I'm in sin. It's the same standard for everyone,
my Bible every day, I wouldn't have asked to be baptized. It is right
and good to expect people to make good on their commitments before God,
and to help them to be successful. What *did* Jesus say to the woman who
was caught in adultery? He didn't condemn her to death or to hell, but told
her to repent: "Go and leave your life of sin" (John 8:11). There was no
question in Jesus's mind that she was in sin.
: >I don't mean to sound harsh; it's just that if you're going to call
: >yourself by the name of 'disciple' or 'Christian' there comes with it a
: >deep devotion and commitment and love for God that you committed
: >yourself to on your baptism day. If you're an Oakland Raider, you come
: >to the practices and the games. If you're a Marine, you show up for
: >duty. If you're a disciple of Jesus, you go to church.
:
: Oh Roger,
: You cannot force people to go to church by bullying them into it, people go
: because they want to. Do you really think God wants you there worshipping
: him if you only went because your discipler guilted you into it???
Nancy. The ICC is a church of disciples. It's not a group of
guilted-out, wimpy whining spectators who have to be forced to pursue
spiritual things. When I started coming to the ICC, I was amazed to see
for the first time in my life a group of committed people who were
serious about God's word, hard-lined on sin, and who didn't make excuses
for their shortcomings, but prayed, fasted, and believed in faith that
God would give them the power to change. They had bad days too, but
having friends around them to encourage, correct, and rebuke them helped
them to find strength in God even then.
God seeks worshippers who worship in spirit and in truth. That's what a
disciple is. If that's not for you, fine! Just don't climb into the
baptistry and say "Jesus Is Lord" if he's not going to be Lord of all in
your life.
Really, what if Peter, James, John, or Paul were reading this debate
about whether a disciple of Jesus is supposed to be at church or not.
(Don't ask what "public humilation" doubting Thomas underwent after he did
not meet with the disciples *just once*.) People died for their faith in
the first Century, much less showed up to sit in a pew on Wednesday night.
R. L. Measures
In article <jason-26079...@jason.sonicsys.com>, ja...@sonicsys.com
(Jason) wrote:
>. . . . and I can honestly say I don't like a few things in the church.
> I want them to change. Dating, extreme discipleship, eliteism, morning
> enforced quiet times, and misinformation to name a few.
>
> I'm sure there have been many ex-ICCers that have tried to do what I'm
> doing. The church is right on in so many areas and has a strong fellowship
> and a lot of people who *REALLY* love God.
>
----------------
Before you head too far down this road, Jason, it might be a good idea to
covertly try to re-establish some of the friendships you had before you
joined 'god's kingdom'. If word filters up to the top of the
control-culture pyramid that you are trying to change things, your
'friends' in 'god's kingdom' may be required to cut you off. If this
happens, nonconditional/real friends are the lifeline to prevent drowning
in a sea of loneliness.
--Rich-- (805) 386 3734
Jason
Roger wrote,
> Your sin affected the whole church--you are a part of the church, and you
> didn't show up. From what you said, all the other Christian brothers and
> sisters were saying was that you should "get advice about your schedule"
> and repent. What's so wrong with that? Why not just repent and say,
> "You know, I wasn't sitting at home watching T.V., I was doing something
> truly worthwhile with the time. But you're right--since I'm part of the
> Fresno Church of Christ, when the Fresno Church of Christ meets, I need
> to be there to encourage the other disciples, to help out in the
> children's ministry, to help with ushering, to assist my discipleship
> group leader, to read the Scriptures, pray with the disciples, give a
> ride to my friend who I'm studying with to become a disciple. I wasn't
> there, I missed out, and I hurt a lot of people by my unfaithfulness, so I
> repent."
I don't think not showing up to church is a sin. I don't even know what
James Winter was doing that day so I won't judge him on it. God tells us
it is important to go to church and I like going to encourage and to be
encouraged. I think I know how James felt though. When you miss a day for
whatever reason, it is automatically thought of as, "wow.. brother
so-and-so is struggling, or weak, or in sin." This is an unhealthy
presumption. It is not physical proximity that God is looking for, it is
a heart. The Bible says the kingdom is inside you. I have gone to church
with a grumbling heart and sat by myself in a little pity party. I didn't
*want* to go to church with this attitude because it wouldn't encourage
anyone. I did go with a bad attitude I felt like everyone was thinking
"cool at least he's here" and that was good enough. If I stayed at home
with a good or bad attitude then I'm "struggling and in sin." This is
wrong.
> The Bible actually links not attending meetings with leaving God
> (Hebrews 10:24-30), not just "sin". Hebrews 3:12-13 likewise talks about
> the need for daily encouragement, so as not to be hardened by sin's
> deceitfulness. Yes, there is a link between not attending church
> services and becoming weak spiritually--it is borne out by these
> Scriptures as well as the examples.
I don't think God is looking at who shows up where but how your heart is.
Being with believers can help your heart and ward off being hardened by
sin's
deceitfulness. Bottom line is that going to church with the right heart
pleases God and mutually encourages everyone. Hebrews says don't make a
habit of not showing up. It doesn't say be there all the time or
something is wrong with you.
Jason Place
member SFCoC
Mudpies
In article <31FE38...@access.digex.net>, Jan Sloan
<sl...@access.digex.net> writes:
One sister,
>who
>has a tendancy to focus on people way too much (she also leads a mission
>group
>i.e., house church), made a special effort to check out every other
mission
>group's statistics for the decathalon. You know, she was hanging around
the
>sheet collector to get a glance of how the other groups were "doing"
compared
>
>to hers. Now, is she focused on God or numbers???
>Jan Sloan
>Current Member of the DC Church of Christ
I'm glad you brought out this point a little more. When I was a leader I
felt competitive at times with the other sisters, like we were in some
type of race to baptize the most people the fastest way possible. Maybe if
they did away with the stat sheet the sister you spoke about might get her
focus back on track, who knows?
To me it felt like I was reporting my weekly sales to the corporate
office.
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
LeMel HW (lem...@aol.com) wrote:
: >> I think number of visitors is an important stat.
: In the case of the ICC, you *are* defined by your stats. ("bad, good,
: awesome" as per the scale)
: I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
: simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
: individual worth (or state of salvation).
We should clarify before we go pulling on the wrong thread, "Good",
"Great" or "Awesome" is in reference to the *attendance* for a particular
group within a church, or the whole church. It is completely possible
for a group with an "Awesome" attendance to have serious spiritual
problems that need to be addressed. Church attendance is simply one
objective barometer that is used by the ICC to see how we are progressing
in our mission to evangelize the world. If we consistently are having
"Bad" attendances, then it makes us ask, "Uh oh, what's wrong?". We know
that the 1st Century Church had explosive growth, so we expect the same
thing if we are really following in the footsteps of Jesus and the early
disciples. Growth is not equal to spirituality. Growth is an important
part of being spiritual, though.
Gintas Jazbutis
>We should clarify before we go pulling on the wrong thread, "Good",
>"Great" or "Awesome" is in reference to the *attendance* for a particular
>group within a church, or the whole church. It is completely possible
>for a group with an "Awesome" attendance to have serious spiritual
>problems that need to be addressed. Church attendance is simply one
>objective barometer that is used by the ICC to see how we are progressing
>in our mission to evangelize the world. If we consistently are having
>"Bad" attendances, then it makes us ask, "Uh oh, what's wrong?". We know
>that the 1st Century Church had explosive growth, so we expect the same
>thing if we are really following in the footsteps of Jesus and the early
>disciples. Growth is not equal to spirituality. Growth is an important
>part of being spiritual, though.
Roger, you have become _dreadfully_ tedious.
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Starr
<snip of post on sfcc rating>
<roger wrote>
>>They'd conclude that this is a church that has goals for its attendance,
>>that the people in it are not content to sit back and let the world pass
>>by, but are actively working and praying for its evangelization. It is a
>>church where having 135% of membership in attendance is barely "Good".
>>(What denominational church wouldn't love to have even 90% of their
>>members show up on a Sunday!) Sin and mediocrity are not the standard;
>>the SFCC is striving for excellence and calling people to the real
>>commitment of following Jesus.
>>
"Sin and mediocrity are not the standard...." Roger, would you
clarify this for me a little bit? I am inferring, from what you said
earlier in your paragraph, that *not* setting a goal, or *not* having
135% in attendance would be "sin and mediocrity". Did I interpret
that correctly?
>>It sets up the tendency to be competitive? I think disciples are already
>>quite competitive--we are compteting to stop Satan from winning the
>>spiritual battle for the souls of this world. I hope that the campus
>>students feel inspired that if the marrieds, most of whom have kids and
>>other responsibilities of life, can rely on God, share their faith, and
>>bring people, that the singles and campus can do the same thing. I hope
>>that the marrieds see that the campus students need some encouragement
>>and inspiration to be successful, and help them out, and will continue to
>>be an example for others to imitate.
So he who saves the most souls wins the game? That's what you make it
sound like...
Starr
sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber) wrote:
>rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>>James Winter (James_...@msn.com) wrote:
>>: And when I missed one midweek (for *very* good reasons
>>: that I will not get into here, but would be happy to talk to you
>>: about), I was told I was in sin and needed to repent of this sin and
>>: "get advice" about my schedule from then on.
>>Your sin affected the whole church-
Roger, your ignorance in this is astounding. I snipped most of
Scott's reply, he knows his friend better than I, but I *do* know the
military. It's not like you have any *choice* in your duty schedule
most of the time. And it's also not like you can just change it to
suit you, or your church. You can always ask, and it can always be
denied. That's just the way it is. How is this "sin"? I would
rather say your self-righteous judgemental comment is "sin" rather
than Bret's not being able to change his military schedule...
nancy
On Jul 30, 1996 21:58:46 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
Rating their attendance>, 'rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann)'
wrote:
>: >Hey, when I sat down to study the Bible, we looked at Acts 2:42 ("they
>: >devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship").
>: >Devoted. I'm devoted to my wife. She's the one I'm committed to. I
>: >took my marriage vows, and made my decision. Likewise, when I joined
the
>: >ICC, I devoted myself to God and to serve his kingdom. I don't cheat
on
>: >my wife one day a month, and I don't miss church services.
>:
>: Oh and I suppose all non ICC members do???
>: Hey Rog, remember what Jesus said..."If there is anyone here who is
without
>: sin, let him cast the first stone!"
>: Can you read people's minds Roger? How can you judge people like this
when
>: you have no idea what is in their hearts???
>
>I can't read people's minds, but I can see if someone's not at church.
>If I'm not at church, I'm in sin.
Where does it say that in the bible?
If you miss church because your sick, then your in sin???
What about the my bible talk leader who went on vacation for 2 weeks?? Was
she in sin because there was no ICC service where she went???(Cape Cod)
Does going to church make you a "good Christian"??
> It's the same standard for everyone, Nancy. If I didn't intend on being
at >church, sharing my faith, reading my Bible every day, I wouldn't have
asked to >be baptized. It is right and good to expect people to make good
on their commitments before God, and to help them to be successful. What
*did* Jesus say to the woman who was caught in adultery? He didn't condemn
her to death or to hell, but told her to repent: "Go and leave your life of
sin" (John 8:11).
Yes he said "Go and sin no more". He didn't tell her to go to the temple,
or even to a priest did he?
>: Oh Roger,
>: You cannot force people to go to church by bullying them into it, people
go
>: because they want to. Do you really think God wants you there
worshipping
>: him if you only went because your discipler guilted you into it???
>
>Nancy. The ICC is a church of disciples. It's not a group of
>guilted-out, wimpy whining spectators who have to be forced to pursue
>spiritual things. When I started coming to the ICC, I was amazed to see
>for the first time in my life a group of committed people who were
>serious about God's word, hard-lined on sin,
You should change the words of the last sentance to read:
"Serious about Kip's word, hard lined on non ICC member's sin".
>Really, what if Peter, James, John, or Paul were reading this debate
>about whether a disciple of Jesus is supposed to be at church or not.
They would tell you that you focus more on the man made church rules than
on God's grace.
>Roger Poehlmann
>member, SF Church of Christ
>(International Church of Christ)
nancy
Chris Garland
>> awesome" as per the scale)
>>
>> I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
>> simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
>> individual worth (or state of salvation).
>>
>yes...on staff...who have never brought out people to church (as in
>baptism or even were consistent with having people visit) but it was
>obvious that they did try to have people out...
Well, this is entirely untrue. In New York, in order to become a
simple Bible Talk leader, one had to baptize someone. In order to be on
staff, one had to be the most fruitful person in ones ministry. This was
policy. Stated policy.
Chris Garland
You know, sometimes I think some good hearted ICC members are really
living in a dream world. They so badly want the ICC to be God's church
that they can't see the mold on the walls all around them. It would be a
beautiful world and a beautiful church if people were really put into
leadership simply because they had pure hearts and were good and kind
like Christ. The reality is, it is a performance organization, just like
any other corporation.
Jeetendra Manghani
In article <4tmkqg$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> conei...@aol.com (COneill182) writes:
>
>
> Yes, Roger, you're right - we all have many devotions and
>commitments. Along with a commitment to God, there are also commitments
>we all have to spouses, children, family, friendships, and jobs, etc. But
>if you truly have a relationship with God, you carry him with you in ALL
>that you do. Going to all church services doesn't make you a christian or
>a disciple, it's how you actually live your life.
> In my experience with the ICC, " getting advice about your schedule",
>actually meant "don"t schedule ANYTHING that might interfere with being
>able to attend all church functions". So in your eyes, my husband
>sinned when he missed two church services while out of town on a business
>trip. In your eyes I sinned when I went to my 2nd grader's School program
>rather than attend yet another "Meet Your Neighbor" potluck. If I work
>weekends and can't go to my bible talk's prayer walk, am I now in sin and
>in need of repentance? I sinned when I missed midweek because my son had
>his tonsils out, and this affected the whole church???
> I don't mean to sound harsh, Roger, ... but I'm concerned about
>what this says about your heart.... <G>
Def Leppard is my favorite group. I've waited for about 7 years for
them to come to San Diego to see them in concert for the first time.
But it happens to be on the same night as devo......what to do what
to do what to do......
Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years. I haven't
missed devo in several years, but my heart still wants to be there,
and due to the extenuating circumstances, I will miss devo...but you
see, I explained my situation, got advice, and planned a month in
advance.
I am also taking off for 9 days on a cruise to the Bahamas.
(graduation gift) I will miss devo and a church service, of which I
have only missed one in five years. I am still a strong member,
leading, spiritual, etc.
The point is that I've expressed where my heart is, and why I am
doing what I am doing, and asking other's opinions about it. I am
not going to do these things without seeking advice.
Jeetendra Manghani
member of San Diego Church of Christ
Scott W. Schreiber
jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>Def Leppard is my favorite group.
>Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
>devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years.
It strikes me as funny. Here we have the ICC. God's movement. God's
church, etc etc etc. Yet you listen to, ask and are granted
permission to go see a musical group that sings all about the glorys
of immoral sex and all that wonderfull stuff. My Bible says to
surround myself with things that are good. I wouldn't include in that
category songs about how a guy lusts over a photograph of a woman
untill he is driven to scream "I wanna touch you!!"
You guys are just too holy. Please, feel free to judge me any time.
Scott W. Schreiber
jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>Stat sheets are there for us to see how the church is doing numerically, and is only a tip
>of the iceburg to see our spiritual growth.
I'm confused. Maybe you can shed some light.
You said in {more words} numerical growth does not equate to
spirituallity, but then you use the "tip of the iceberg" thing. To
say something is the tip of the iceberg is to say that something
synonymous or at least similar, yet much larger, remains hidden.
This would contradict what I thought you were saying, and would be
similar to saying that stat sheets showing numerical growth indicate a
much larger, yet not quite so visible spiritual growth.
See my confusion?
Jason
In article <4toli3$5...@madrid.visi.net>, sco...@nhr.com (Scott W.
Schreiber) wrote:
You're kidding, right Scott? Why don't all us believers become Omish.
karen liu
On 31 Jul 1996, Chris Garland wrote:
> You know, sometimes I think some good hearted ICC members are really
> living in a dream world. They so badly want the ICC to be God's church
> that they can't see the mold on the walls all around them. It would be a
> beautiful world and a beautiful church if people were really put into
> leadership simply because they had pure hearts and were good and kind
> like Christ. The reality is, it is a performance organization, just like
> any other corporation.
>
fruitful and have brought many people out to church as well as studied the
bible with them and baptised them...and these people have not been put in
leadership....i am not saying that the church is holding back these
people, but i am jsut saying that it is not based on the number of people
oyu have baptised is not the determining factor of whether you will be in
leadership or not
this guy i had brought out in october was leading the campus ministry and
he had baptised and brought out 0 people...and he was in leadership and
there was talk that he may go into the full-time ministry if he CHOSE t to
he felt that he needed to be more mature since he has only been a
christian for almost 10 months now (mature as i mean in terms of living as
a disciple) and that was the choice he made
just wanted to point that out...
from the eskimo in toronto
karen liu
On 31 Jul 1996, Chris Garland wrote:
>
> simple Bible Talk leader, one had to baptize someone. In order to be on
> staff, one had to be the most fruitful person in ones ministry. This was
> policy. Stated policy.
that is something i msut look into, but the bible talk leader that lead
the campus ministry in the toronto church only ever baptised one person (i
mean, he met this person and this person became a christian after and he
didn'[t even study the bible with her, other sisters did) and he is a
bible talk leader AND family grouop leader here
by the way, he baptised this girl AFTER he was a bible talk leader and
family group leader
so i don't think that is a policy in the whole movement
there are many family group leaders here who have never brought out
someone and saw the mget baptised either
please forgive my typing....the server i am presently using has only a
9600 modem so when i type it takes several minutes before it appears on
the screen...thanks for understanding
yours, karen forfrom the church in toronto
Jeetendra Manghani
In article <31FE38...@access.digex.net> Jan Sloan <sl...@access.digex.net> writes:
>
>On competitiveness (in the context of the original note) - Us mission group
>leaders also had a "decathalon" sheet to fill out last week. This sheet
>basically listed the studies and baptisms over the last month. One sister, who
>has a tendancy to focus on people way too much (she also leads a mission group
>i.e., house church), made a special effort to check out every other mission
>group's statistics for the decathalon. You know, she was hanging around the
>sheet collector to get a glance of how the other groups were "doing" compared
>to hers. Now, is she focused on God or numbers???
>
>Jan Sloan
>Current Member of the DC Church of Christ
This is a trap that I, too, hate falling into. I believe if we're
growing spiritually and numerically, we have a healthy church. I
was told once, and I always, since then, tell others that if you
don't have a ministry that is unified and growing spiritually, then
numerical growth will also be numerical decay as people fall away
for lack of spiritual growth.
It's hard, but I try not to focus on numbers but people. I believe
that my discipleship times and hang out times and prayer times are
inifinitely more powerful than stat sheets. Stat sheets are there
for us to see how the church is doing numerically, and is only a tip
of the iceburg to see our spiritual growth. Like someone mentioned,
some guy who was falling into immorality was bringing about many
visitors.....so numbers don't equal spirituality, but can hint at it
only. (I've also been told this thousands of times by our regional
leaders....)
Love,
Jeetendra Manghani
member of San Diego Church of Christ
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
COneill182 (conei...@aol.com) wrote:
: >>: rogn...@netcom.com (Roger Poehlmann) wrote:
: >>Your sin affected the whole church--you are a part of the church, and
: you
: >>didn't show up. From what you said, all the other Christian brothers
: and
: >>sisters were saying was that you should "get advice about your schedule"
: >>and repent. What's so wrong about that?
: In my experience with the ICC, " getting advice about your schedule",
: actually meant "don"t schedule ANYTHING that might interfere with being
: able to attend all church functions". So in your eyes, my husband
: sinned when he missed two church services while out of town on a business
: trip. In your eyes I sinned when I went to my 2nd grader's School program
: rather than attend yet another "Meet Your Neighbor" potluck. If I work
: weekends and can't go to my bible talk's prayer walk, am I now in sin and
: in need of repentance? I sinned when I missed midweek because my son had
: his tonsils out, and this affected the whole church???
C'mon, we deal with situations like business trips, kids getting their
tonsils out, work schedules that initially conflict with church services,
etc. all the time. This is the reality of life. Disciples are simply
people who put God's kingdom first (Matthew 6:33) and to a great extent,
yes, "Don't schedule anything that might interfere with being able to
attend all church functions" is right on the money.
A real-life example: A few months before the trip, my boss mentioned
that he was going to send me, another disciple at my job, and two other
co-workers on a business trip. I reminded him that my disciple friend
and I both are very committed to our church, and that we would only be
able to go if we could attend church either in S.F. or in Charlotte at
10am Sunday. Well, when it came time for the tickets to come, he had
forgotten and scheduled us to leave at 9:45am. I asked if it would be
possible to reschedule, since we wouldn't be able to go on the trip if it
meant missing church. I suppose he could have fired me on the spot, but
if that happened I believe that God would have provided for us. Instead,
he realized his mistake, and rescheduled the flight. We were able to be
at church, and had a very successful business trip.
Jesus expected his disciples to drop their nets, leave their father in
the boat, and come follow him. And they did so! Why should the standard of
discipleship be any different in the 20th Century?
Roger/Michelle Poehlmann
Catherine Hampton (ar...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : I can't read people's minds, but I can see if someone's not at church.
: : If I'm not at church, I'm in sin. It's the same standard for everyone,
: Oh, that sinful flu I had earlier this summer.... <wry grin>
: Roger -- are you capable of seeing anything in other than absolute
: terms? And do you realize how =dumb= you sound when you say stuff
: like this.
Catherine, how hard can it be to dial a phone and say, "Bro, I've got a
102 temperature and I've been home from work all day. I got a
replacement for children's ministry lined up to take my place so they
aren't overburdened and I won't give them this nasty flu. Can you make
sure I get the notes and announcements, and say hi to everyone for me?"
What we're talking about here is just not showing up for church without
prior communication, and not in a case of contagious illness.
: I get the impression that there is no place for balance, reason, or
: compromise in anything you believe. This is not right.
There is place for balance and reason, but no compromise when it comes to
obeying the Scriptures of God. Discipleship is an extreme commitment.
LeMel HW
On 30 Jul 1996, I wrote:
> I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
> simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
> individual worth (or state of salvation).
>
> In the case of the ICC, you *are* defined by your stats. ("bad, good,
> awesome" as per the scale)
And e0fk...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca (karen liu) responded [in defense of
ICC]:
> it's a person's character/spirituality that determine how "awesome" the
> person is doing in terms of spirituality...and it is usually noticeable
in
> terms of impact
What do you notice? How does the ICC measure this impact? What character
and spirituality traits are you reffering to that determine how "awesome"
the person is doing?
If individual visitors, individual contribution, individual # of converts,
etc. isn't important to the church as a measurement, then why do they:
a) take stats
b) keep track of stats in office databases (I've seen it)
c) spend large amounts of time setting up meetings among Bible Talk groups
and leaders to collect and collate these stats?
LeMel says:
"One man's wierd flourescent colors is another man's Elvis on velvet"
How's that?
nancy
On Jul 31, 1996 19:03:52 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
>the boat, and come follow him. And they did so! Why should the standard
of
>discipleship be any different in the 20th Century?
nancy
Chris Garland
rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>Catherine Hampton (ar...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
>: Roger/Michelle Poehlmann (rogn...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: : I can't read people's minds, but I can see if someone's not at church.
>: : If I'm not at church, I'm in sin. It's the same standard for everyone,
>
>: Oh, that sinful flu I had earlier this summer.... <wry grin>
>
>: Roger -- are you capable of seeing anything in other than absolute
>: terms? And do you realize how =dumb= you sound when you say stuff
>: like this.
>
>Catherine, how hard can it be to dial a phone and say, "Bro, I've got a
>102 temperature and I've been home from work all day. I got a
>replacement for children's ministry lined up to take my place so they
>aren't overburdened and I won't give them this nasty flu. Can you make
>sure I get the notes and announcements, and say hi to everyone for me?"
>
>What we're talking about here is just not showing up for church without
>prior communication, and not in a case of contagious illness.
What YOU'RE talking about is controlling people. Why should I call
someone to tell them I have the flu?? It's none of their business --
between me and God. Jeez, don't you people have ANY FAITH? Why do you
feel like you have to control and manipulate other people's faith so much
-- or is the ICC such a farce that you have to literally leash people to
keep them in? Where's GOD in your picture? You have no faith.
Chris Garland
ar...@nntp.best.com (Catherine Hampton) wrote:
>Chris Garland (chr...@village.ios.com) wrote:
>
>: rogn...@netcom.com (Roger/Michelle Poehlmann) wrote:
>
>: >replacement for children's ministry lined up to take my place so they
>: >aren't overburdened and I won't give them this nasty flu. Can you make
>: >sure I get the notes and announcements, and say hi to everyone for me?"
>
>: >What we're talking about here is just not showing up for church without
>: >prior communication, and not in a case of contagious illness.
>
>: What YOU'RE talking about is controlling people. Why should I call
>: someone to tell them I have the flu?? It's none of their business --
>: between me and God. Jeez, don't you people have ANY FAITH? Why do you
>: feel like you have to control and manipulate other people's faith so much
>: -- or is the ICC such a farce that you have to literally leash people to
>: keep them in? Where's GOD in your picture? You have no faith.
>
>I do feel I'd be obligated to let people know if I couldn't make it.
>That's reasonable.
>
>I don't feel the rest is reasonable at all, but then I reject the whole
>pattern of hierarchial authority as practiced by the ICC. So there's
>no way Roger and I were going to agree in the first place. It at least
>appears he recognizes things like the flu or unexpected emergencies
>as legitimate, non-sinful reasons to miss church, something his earlier
>comments seemed to rule out. But he isn't the only person to speak
>much more rigidly than he or others live.
>
>It might occur to him that there's a reason people believed he meant
>what he said, though. Too many people have seen just such unreasonable
>and extreme practices within the San Francisco CC specifically, not even
>the ICC in general. Young, immature, arrogant disciplers don't always
>wait to find out the situation before "discipling" someone. :(
I think I'm missing something from Roger's post, then. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
not just if you are teaching a children's class. In the case of the
class, it would only be responsible to to notify someone of your absence.
However, if your just a member and you have the flu, then I totally think
it is completely unreasonable to be expected to call people and notify
them. That is a control mechanism flat out -- nothing more/nothing less,
in which case my response warrants not an "easy" but a "go for it." ;>
Chris Garland
>away all of my CD's, stereos, TV's, and books that contain anything
>sinful in them. While I am at it, I will stone anyone else who
>doesn't do as I say. Just following Scott's example......
Jee, I had a roommate in the ICC who did just that -- threw away all of
his LPs and CDs that had unpuritanical references in them. Kinda silly if
you ask me. Seems to me we each have to decide *for ourselves* (special
emphasis, because I don't believe it can or should be our disciplers
decision or our leaders decisions) what causes us to sin, and cut it out
of our lives. Music doesn't cause me to run out and sleep around New York
City. Nor does it cause me to murder anyone. Not a problem for me.
Perhaps it is for some people.
On the other hand, there is this guy who plays the accordian on the
subway platform by my office every single day that I've had some pretty
violent thoughts about.....:)
>(Maybe that was uncalled for on my part......)
Maybe. But it was funny.
LeMel HW
Catherine said:
> Young, immature, arrogant disciplers don't always
> wait to find out the situation before "discipling"
> someone. :(
LeMel responds alike:
To a person who has been given a hammer, everything looks like a nail. -
No wonder discipling is sometimes referred to as "hammering" within the
ICC.
True discipling is motivated by concern for the individual and his/her
walk with God, not a mentorship of rules and regulations.
Scott W. Schreiber
Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com> wrote:
>I think I'm missing something from Roger's post, then. Correct me if I'm
>wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
>someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
>not just if you are teaching a children's class.
I agree with Chris' whole post. In the beginning of this missing
church thing there was absolutely no mention of children's class or
whatever. The person just missed church, and said they had a good
reason. Roger, by throwing in the children's class thing, is trying
to add just a touch of sense to a whole bucket of nonsense. Every
responsible, courteous person would think to call and take care of
their obligations, but that was not in the original idea. It was
simply that a fellow missed a service. He was rebuked. He didn't say
he had "duty" that day. He just missed. For that, he should not need
to call anyone.
I know that Catherine disagrees with a lot of ICC stuff, but you need
to be careful. See how Roger used a couple of his own injected ideas
to get Catherine to say "go easy" to Chris? Chris nailed it on the
head, yet Rog was slick enough to get Catherine off balance.
And there you have the ICC. Perfect demonstration.
Chris Garland
jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>In article <4tmkqg$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> conei...@aol.com (COneill182) writes:
>>
>>
>> Yes, Roger, you're right - we all have many devotions and
>>commitments. Along with a commitment to God, there are also commitments
>>we all have to spouses, children, family, friendships, and jobs, etc. But
>>if you truly have a relationship with God, you carry him with you in ALL
>>that you do. Going to all church services doesn't make you a christian or
>>a disciple, it's how you actually live your life.
>>actually meant "don"t schedule ANYTHING that might interfere with being
>>able to attend all church functions". So in your eyes, my husband
>>sinned when he missed two church services while out of town on a business
>>trip. In your eyes I sinned when I went to my 2nd grader's School program
>>rather than attend yet another "Meet Your Neighbor" potluck. If I work
>>weekends and can't go to my bible talk's prayer walk, am I now in sin and
>>in need of repentance? I sinned when I missed midweek because my son had
>>his tonsils out, and this affected the whole church???
>>what this says about your heart.... <G>
>
>Def Leppard is my favorite group. I've waited for about 7 years for
>them to come to San Diego to see them in concert for the first time.
>But it happens to be on the same night as devo......what to do what
>to do what to do......
>
>missed devo in several years, but my heart still wants to be there,
>and due to the extenuating circumstances, I will miss devo...but you
>see, I explained my situation, got advice, and planned a month in
>advance.
>
>I am also taking off for 9 days on a cruise to the Bahamas.
>(graduation gift) I will miss devo and a church service, of which I
>have only missed one in five years. I am still a strong member,
>leading, spiritual, etc.
>
>The point is that I've expressed where my heart is, and why I am
>doing what I am doing, and asking other's opinions about it. I am
>not going to do these things without seeking advice.
Why do you need advice about any of this? Are you incapable of knowing
where your heart is? Will God cut you off and condemn you for missing the
services, EVEN if your in your heart of hearts you wanted the concert
MORE than you wanted to go to service? God is a LOVING FATHER, not the
Warden of the State Pen.
And what, exactly, is "a strong member." I thought our salvation and
spirituality wasn't based on works, but on faith. We are saved by grace.
Grace alone. There is no weak and strong when you are under grace,
because CHRIST MAKES UP FOR ANY WEAKNESS WE HAVE. All you need is faith.
This mumbojumbo really irks my craw. A grown man asking permission (aka
"advice") to do something. I say, be an adult -- take your walk with God
in your own hands and be responsible for it -- it will only be YOU
standing before God on judgement day. When you're asked to "defend"
yourself, the one who steps up to the plate for you will be Jesus and
Jesus alone -- not your discipler. No offense, but grow up (spiritually,
I mean).
Catherine Hampton
Starr (kcs...@echo.sound.net) wrote:
: person the opportunity to help you. In my own case, I've been out of
: work a week with a concussion - and all of my friends have been
: wonderful with helping me out, bringing me flowers, food, and the
: ultimate - Chips Ahoy cookies (my fav). But if I hadn't told them,
: they wouldn't have known, and I wouldn't have known how much they
: really do love & care for me.
Oh, is that where you've been the last week.... ;> Seriously, I'm
sorry to hear about the concussion, although from reading this I
gather it isn't too serious. You sound pretty normal to me, at least
for Kim. ;>
<shipping virtual Chips Ahoy your way>
Catherine
Scott W. Schreiber
ja...@sonicsys.com (Jason) wrote:
>I like music like Slayer and White Zombie,
Ya know, there's plenty of really good Christian metal out there.
Check out Mortification. About as heavy as Slayer, but with a message
other than "Serve our master Lucifer..." I have listened to Slayer,
and others like Venom and Pantera, and as my convictions deepened and
God straightened me out, I saw that those groups were filling my mind
with junk.
BTW, Amish folk are in no way "backward." It's unfortunate that
hollywood portrays them that way. They are extremely efficient,
family oriented, and VERY committed disciples of Christ. I have the
great fortune to have grown up near the largest community of Amish in
Holmes county Ohio. They are certainly admirable folk.
LeMel HW
Jeetendra Manghani said:
> <He has permission to miss service to see a Def Lep concert and go on a
9 day cruise>
LeMel says:
Sir, do you realize that most people don't get away with this? If you were
accountable to a more harsh 'over' he would've blasted you just for
asking.
You must know this to be true. Some disciplers are harsher than others, no
matter how good your intentions may be.
nancy
On Aug 01, 1996 20:55:23 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
Rating their attendance>, 'Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com>' wrote:
Jeetendra wrote:
>>Def Leppard is my favorite group. I've waited for about 7 years for
>>them to come to San Diego to see them in concert for the first time.
>>But it happens to be on the same night as devo......what to do what
>>to do what to do......
>>Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
>>devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years. I haven't
>>missed devo in several years, but my heart still wants to be there,
>>and due to the extenuating circumstances, I will miss devo...but you
>>see, I explained my situation, got advice, and planned a month in
>>(graduation gift) I will miss devo and a church service, of which I
>>have only missed one in five years. I am still a strong member,
>>leading, spiritual, etc.
>>The point is that I've expressed where my heart is, and why I am
>>doing what I am doing, and asking other's opinions about it. I am
>>not going to do these things without seeking advice.
>where your heart is? Will God cut you off and condemn you for missing the
>services, EVEN if your in your heart of hearts you wanted the concert
>MORE than you wanted to go to service? God is a LOVING FATHER, not the
>Warden of the State Pen.
Note he is asking permission of another human, not God!
>
>And what, exactly, is "a strong member." I thought our salvation and
>spirituality wasn't based on works, but on faith. We are saved by grace.
>Grace alone. There is no weak and strong when you are under grace,
>because CHRIST MAKES UP FOR ANY WEAKNESS WE HAVE. All you need is faith.
>This mumbojumbo really irks my craw. A grown man asking permission (aka
>"advice") to do something. I say, be an adult -- take your walk with God
>in your own hands and be responsible for it -- it will only be YOU
>standing before God on judgement day. When you're asked to "defend"
>yourself, the one who steps up to the plate for you will be Jesus and
>Jesus alone -- not your discipler. No offense, but grow up (spiritually,
>I mean).
When I was in the hospital with an appendicitis attack, my discipler
accused me of making excuses not to go to church.
The week before, I had missed church because I was sick, the family group
leader actually called me up, and the first words out of her mouth were "I
want to know why you weren't in church today". Now, I was not in child
care, and I didn't have a visitor, so what was the big deal? Could it be
because my discipler had also missed church due to illness too?? Maybe she
thought we were influencing each other to committ sin!!!
That call made me really open my eyes and see what the ICC is really about!
And it was the last straw, and made me realize that if I stayed in the ICC,
I would most likely end up in a mental hospital!!!
nancy
Jason
In article <4tp83r$6...@madrid.visi.net>, sco...@nhr.com (Scott W.
Schreiber) wrote:
> >On Jul 31, 1996 17:01:19 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
> >Rating their attendance>, 'ja...@sonicsys.com (Jason)' wrote:
> >
> >
> >>You're kidding, right Scott? Why don't all us believers become Omish.
> >
> Amish.... I have thought about it. They certainly have a solid
> theology. And they are "nice" too.
>
> Why do you think I'm kidding? Do you know any Amish folk? Do you
> know what they believe?
>
> Their doctrines are a LOT less shakey than Kip's, and they don't
> change their doctrines or their history.
Scott,
You're right. I used a gross generalization. I know no Amish folk. I
don't know what they believe. Or how to spell it. I have just seen
movies and shows that depict Amish as "backwards" and "secluded" compared
with the rest of society.
I mentioned Amish because I thought it would illustrate what we would
believe if we took your Def Leppard response to extremes. I like music
like Slayer and White Zombie, movies like Heat, Good fellas, Casino, other
stuff that I am almost certain the Amish wouldn't condone from what I've
seen.(which isn't much).
Anyone seen King Pin?
Jason
Starr
Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com> wrote:
<snippage>
>I think I'm missing something from Roger's post, then. Correct me if I'm
>wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
>someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
>not just if you are teaching a children's class. In the case of the
>class, it would only be responsible to to notify someone of your absence.
>However, if your just a member and you have the flu, then I totally think
>it is completely unreasonable to be expected to call people and notify
>them. That is a control mechanism flat out -- nothing more/nothing less,
>in which case my response warrants not an "easy" but a "go for it." ;>
Chris, while I think Roger's post was off the mark - there are many,
many legitimate reasons why one would miss the occasional service, I
don't disagree that by joining the ICC, you are committing to go to
all the services possible. Also, one of the benefits of letting
someone know you are sick, or whatever, is that you give that other
Jeetendra Manghani
>In article <4toli3$5...@madrid.visi.net>, sco...@nhr.com (Scott W.
>Schreiber) wrote:
>> >devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years.
>>
>> church, etc etc etc. Yet you listen to, ask and are granted
>> permission to go see a musical group that sings all about the glorys
>> of immoral sex and all that wonderfull stuff. My Bible says to
>> surround myself with things that are good. I wouldn't include in that
>> category songs about how a guy lusts over a photograph of a woman
>> untill he is driven to scream "I wanna touch you!!"
>>
>> You guys are just too holy. Please, feel free to judge me any time.
Wow. I am completely speechless. Tomorrow, I am going to throw
away all of my CD's, stereos, TV's, and books that contain anything
sinful in them. While I am at it, I will stone anyone else who
doesn't do as I say. Just following Scott's example......
Jeetendra Manghani
member of San Diego Church of Christ
(Maybe that was uncalled for on my part......)
Scott W. Schreiber
jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>Wow. I am completely speechless. Tomorrow, I am going to throw
>away all of my CD's, stereos, TV's, and books that contain anything
>sinful in them. While I am at it, I will stone anyone else who
>doesn't do as I say. Just following Scott's example......
That's funny Jee! HAA. I'm laughing.
I didn't suggest you throw everything away.
I CERTAINLY DID NOT express hatred or intolerance or willingness to
STONE anyone for not agreeing with me!
I have stereos, and TV's and books. I use them to increase my
knowledge and to praise God, and for entertainment. But I DO NOT
allow something which I have so much control over, fill my mind with
SMUT. There are too many other opportunities which I can not control,
for Satan to get into my life, why should I ENCOURAGE him by listening
to immoral ideas, and singing about it.
The Bible calls you and me to surround ourselves with good things, and
to think about good things. How can I do that, when the catchy part
of someone's CD is ringing over and over again in my head
"I'm BIGGER THAN JESUS NOW...."
or the ever popular Nine Inch Nails.....:
"YOUR GOD IS DEAD, I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL."
or Alanis Morriset:
"I know a girl who'll go down on you in a movie theater..."
I don't want to fill my mind with this garbage! Why should I??? Do
you think God likes it? What if you're playing this kind of trash,
and Jesus walks in the room and sits down? "Whatcha listening to
there Jee?" What would you say? Would you let it continue to play?
or would you shamefully turn it off and say something REAL smart like
"it's only a song..."
Jesus is with us. The Holy Spirit lives INSIDE us. I don't want to
beat Him down and try to cover Him up with crap like that.
Now if YOU want to, go ahead, there's nothing I can do. I am not your
discipler. I am just making a suggestion, relating *my* conviction,
and telling you what the Bible says. You needn't live in the fear
that I will come to STONE you.
Scott W. Schreiber
Ovum
In article <jason-01089...@jason.sonicsys.com>, ja...@sonicsys.com
(Jason) writes:
>You're right. I used a gross generalization. I know no Amish folk. I
>don't know what they believe. Or how to spell it. I have just seen
>movies and shows that depict Amish as "backwards" and "secluded" compared
>with the rest of society.
"If I finish my chores, and you finish thine,
We are going to party like it's 1699..."
_______Weird Al Yankovich, "Living in an Amish Paradise"
(REALLY funny parody of Coolio's "Gangster's Paradise."
:-)
Laura Ware
In message <4tqku3$l...@news.ios.com> - Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com>
writes:
>>I think I'm missing something from Roger's post, then. Correct me if I'm
>>wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
>>someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
>>not just if you are teaching a children's class. In the case of the
>>class, it would only be responsible to to notify someone of your absence.
>>However, if your just a member and you have the flu, then I totally think
>>it is completely unreasonable to be expected to call people and notify
>>them. That is a control mechanism flat out -- nothing more/nothing less,
>>in which case my response warrants not an "easy" but a "go for it." ;>
Look, is it possible this whole thing is less sinister than you make out? If
I am not going to be at a particular service, there's a good chance I'm going
to let someone know, not because of "control" - because the people I go to
church with are family to me and they might be concerned if they miss me.
It works both ways. If someone is not at church, I will probably wonder if
everything's OK with them, if someone's sick, or out of town. When I see
them again, I'll be glad. If I suspect something might REALLY be wrong, I'll
call. Not to control them - but because I care about them.
What's wrong with that?
Laura Ware
law...@ct.net
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - Matthew 7:12
Chris Garland
>>wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
>>someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
>>not just if you are teaching a children's class. In the case of the
>>class, it would only be responsible to to notify someone of your absence.
>>However, if your just a member and you have the flu, then I totally think
>>it is completely unreasonable to be expected to call people and notify
>>them. That is a control mechanism flat out -- nothing more/nothing less,
>>in which case my response warrants not an "easy" but a "go for it." ;>
>
>many legitimate reasons why one would miss the occasional service, I
>don't disagree that by joining the ICC, you are committing to go to
>all the services possible. Also, one of the benefits of letting
>someone know you are sick, or whatever, is that you give that other
>person the opportunity to help you. In my own case, I've been out of
>work a week with a concussion - and all of my friends have been
>wonderful with helping me out, bringing me flowers, food, and the
>ultimate - Chips Ahoy cookies (my fav). But if I hadn't told them,
>they wouldn't have known, and I wouldn't have known how much they
>really do love & care for me.
>
I see what your are saying Kim (and I hope you feel better), but I
wholeheartedly believe that the ICC's system of reporting ones absence is
based on control -- flat out. Nothing else. Some individuals may believe
they continue to follow the example of the leaders in following up on
people who miss service out of concern (and they may really be
concerned), but control is, in my opinion, the central dominant theme. It
radiates through everything they do. Lack of faith is a close second.
You *wanted* help in your above example. Big difference between wanting
help, and having it forced on you.
Chris Garland
>
>BTW, Amish folk are in no way "backward." It's unfortunate that
>hollywood portrays them that way. They are extremely efficient,
>family oriented, and VERY committed disciples of Christ. I have the
>great fortune to have grown up near the largest community of Amish in
>Holmes county Ohio. They are certainly admirable folk.
But, alas, also a system that can breed legalism. My ex-girlfriend was
excommunicated from their community because they thought her skirts were
too short (didn't cover her *whole* ankle).
Chris Garland
law...@ct.net (Laura Ware) wrote:
>In message <4tqku3$l...@news.ios.com> - Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com>
>writes:
>>>wrong, but I think he was insinuating that you're supposed to notify
>>>someone of any missed church services because of things like flu, etc. --
>>>not just if you are teaching a children's class. In the case of the
>>>class, it would only be responsible to to notify someone of your absence.
>>>However, if your just a member and you have the flu, then I totally think
>>>it is completely unreasonable to be expected to call people and notify
>>>them. That is a control mechanism flat out -- nothing more/nothing less,
>>>in which case my response warrants not an "easy" but a "go for it." ;>
>
No, I think it is probably MORE sinister than I'm making out. It's a
cult.
Catherine Hampton
FWIW -- I'd already heard Gary's story, everyone. The Fresno church
hurt him, not the other way around.
I didn't read Roger's whole post responding to mine, though, and
missed his comment about Gary. Or was it about Gary? If not, I
hope he'll let us know. Otherwise, he's just participating in a
group slander of a good and honest believer in Christ. If he is,
this is wrong, and he needs to repent.
But I'm not holding my breath. I don't think Roger is capable of
believing anything negative about his leaders. Denial is not a river
in Egypt. And, as Chesterton said about George Bernard Shaw, there
are those who are desperately handicapped by being unable to tell a
lie unless they believe it to be true. If you have a follower like
that and you are a leader who hurts and abuses people, you lie to
them. Otherwise they'd leave.
Catherine
Scott W. Schreiber
dande...@aol.com (DAnder9518) wrote:
>P.S. Wow, we should start an Amish newsgroup! : )
I disagree.....
Kinda hard to get their input, since they haven't approved the
computer. (They actually do use some gas powered and electric stuff,
believe it or not...)
BTW, "Mind your own business" is a command to Christians in the Bible!
Didja know that? <NIV>
Starr
sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber) wrote:
>jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>>Def Leppard is my favorite group.
>>Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
>>devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years.
>It strikes me as funny. Here we have the ICC. God's movement. God's
>church, etc etc etc. Yet you listen to, ask and are granted
>permission to go see a musical group that sings all about the glorys
>of immoral sex and all that wonderfull stuff. My Bible says to
>surround myself with things that are good. I wouldn't include in that
>category songs about how a guy lusts over a photograph of a woman
>untill he is driven to scream "I wanna touch you!!"
>You guys are just too holy. Please, feel free to judge me any time.
Scott, and you are just too judgmental. What would be sin to you
might not be sin to someone else. How judgemental can you get?
Catherine Hampton
Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
: dande...@aol.com (DAnder9518) wrote:
: >P.S. Wow, we should start an Amish newsgroup! : )
: I disagree.....
: Kinda hard to get their input, since they haven't approved the
: computer. (They actually do use some gas powered and electric stuff,
: believe it or not...)
Depends on which Amish, Scott. There are a number of Amish sects,
some of whom allow no modern technologies at all and some of whom
even allow electricity and automobiles, as long as the automobiles
don't have any shiny chrome or ornaments, anyway. ;> I got curious
about the Amish ten or fifteen years ago and did a bit of research.
I think it's a pretty fair bet that we won't talk many of them into
getting Internet accounts and joining us here, though. :>
Catherine
James Winter
OK the suspense is killing me... I'm reading everyone's replys to
Roger's reply to my post and I don't have Roger's post or Catherine's
either for that matter. Could somebody please repost them and maybe
my server will pick them up this time. Thank you in advance.
I can't wait to read more of Roger's loving, caring, unjudgmental
response about how I "hurt the Fresno church". Let me explain the
situation a little more. I am a pilot. I had a new job as an
airline pilot. In the words of the leaders my job was "a gift from
God". Before carrying your family around CA we go through an intense
period of ground/flight instruction that lasts approx. one month.
Tests are frequent and scores below 80% can get you _fired_. During
this time I was either studying or sleeping. period. Nothing else.
You tell me Roger, what would hurt the church more - me missing a
midweek to prepare and study thereby being a good steward of "God's
gift", being "excellent" in my job in order to show those around me
that you can be a great pilot and follow Christ at the same time?
What kind of witness/message would I have sent to those in my
training class if I would have been fired or "washed out" because of
low test scores due to attending midweek when I could have been
studying? The Fresno church says that I was serving God by doing my
best at work but that I could serve God better by being at midweek.
(The leaders obviously have clairvoyance and know more about what is
better for me than I do...<gag>). The Fresno church says I should've
utilized my time better during the week so that I could attend on
Wed. I asked them what part of the 5 hours of sleep time after I'm
done studying would you like me to utilize doing something else?
They just could not understand that I was studying _all_ day _every_
day. Here's the clincher... The Fresno church says that I am just
not trusting God in all of this. I am a learner and I ask how I can
trust God better. They say "Bro, you just need to go to midweek and
trust that God will help you in the exams". I ask "Are you telling
me that I should just skip 4-6 hours of studying and God will make
that information appear in my head because I went to midweek?" They
said "Trust God" in other words, yes. At that point it was _obvious_
that the real issue here is not serving God, not trusting God, not
good utilization of time but rather one of getting every last member
to church every time so that the leader doesn't get chewed out by his
discipler (Russ Ewell, SF CoC leader) because the STATS aren't
perfect. You see Roger, by telling me what they did they may as well
have said straight to my face that the church STATS are more
important than your job, your life, your passengers safety... I could
go on and on. Do you realize the implications of this?? I was not
financially supported by the ICC, should I follow their "advice" and
be a poor steward of "God's gift", do shoddy work and get fired or
worse yet endanger people's lives because I don't know what I am
supposed to??
BTW I also got the part about not informing anyone of my absence. I
did that - in advance because there were minor setup/cleanup
responsibilities that I had and I wanted to be sure that they would
be taken care of.
**********************************************************************
(makeshift sig block)
and the name is Gary Winter,
praise God that I'm a _former_ member of the ICC
If you're in - GET OUT, If you're out - Thank the person(s) that
helped you see the TRUTH.
**********************************************************************
Martin Hinves
Chris Garland <chr...@village.ios.com> wrote:
>karen liu <e0fk...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>On 30 Jul 1996, LeMel HW wrote:
>>>
>>> In the case of the ICC, you *are* defined by your stats. ("bad, good,
>>> awesome" as per the scale)
>>>
>>> I would say that in a less performance-oriented group, any stats would
>>> simply be used to reflect on overall health and effectiveness, not
>>> individual worth (or state of salvation).
>>>
>>that's not true...there were many people who were put into leadership and
>>yes...on staff...who have never brought out people to church (as in
>>baptism or even were consistent with having people visit) but it was
>>obvious that they did try to have people out...
>Well, this is entirely untrue. In New York, in order to become a
>simple Bible Talk leader, one had to baptize someone. In order to be on
>staff, one had to be the most fruitful person in ones ministry. This was
>policy. Stated policy.
WE also had "directives" from above.
Show me in the bible where it says that one must have baptised someone
to become a leader ? or that one must be in leadership before you can
be allowed to date?.
There was also the "rule" that to get into leadership you had to be
tithing higher than your compulsory 10%....
In London they used to have a "status" called "Zealot".
It was a rah-rah status for people who were "cranking it out" as the
loaded language goes.
Funny when I studied Jewish Military history I thought a Zealot was a
terrorist/freedom fighter who pledged to die fighting the Romans.
Why would the London Church need to reserect this <G>.
Martin
Mudpies
In article <4tra3r$9...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>,
n1...@usa.pipeline.com(nancy) writes:
>When I was in the hospital with an appendicitis attack, my discipler
>accused me of making excuses not to go to church.
>The week before, I had missed church because I was sick, the family group
>leader actually called me up, and the first words out of her mouth were
"I
>want to know why you weren't in church today". Now, I was not in child
>care, and I didn't have a visitor, so what was the big deal? Could it be
>because my discipler had also missed church due to illness too?? Maybe
she
>thought we were influencing each other to committ sin!!!
>That call made me really open my eyes and see what the ICC is really
about!
>And it was the last straw, and made me realize that if I stayed in the
ICC,
>I would most likely end up in a mental hospital!!!
I experienced something similar when I was attempting to be restored back
to the church. I was diagnosed with a tumor in the spring of 95 and had
been "studying" the Bible with the sector leader in Oakland for over 3
months by that time. We met about every other week to talk. She never
called or visited me while I was in the hospital or at home recouperating.
It's interesting how the church teaches you to be estranged from your
family and how they try to take precedence over them, but when push came
to shove, it was my family that was there for me to comfort me and be by
my side. For all the hell I had put my parents through while I was a
member in the church it was all forgotten in a split second when I called
my mother( after not speaking to her for a few months, as directed by the
leaders) she was on a plane the next day. This sector leader only lived a
few blocks down the street from me and yet my mom lives in Florida. The
lack of concern and action on this leader's part( she is highly esteemed
in the SF church) began to help me to see that "Blood is thicker than the
ICC baptism water." and I believe God helped me to see the difference
between conditional acceptance and unconditional acceptance.
Walter Semerenko
On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 22:10:40 GMT sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber)
wrote:
>jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>>Def Leppard is my favorite group.
>>Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
>>devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years.
>It strikes me as funny. Here we have the ICC. God's movement. God's
>church, etc etc etc. Yet you listen to, ask and are granted
>permission to go see a musical group that sings all about the glorys
>of immoral sex and all that wonderfull stuff.
Yeah, I thought it was ironic that my ICC discipler was telling me
about how sexually "pure" they were. He told me if he is around a
group of people and they start talking about sex, he will rebuke them
in the name of God, and the sisters would flee whenever sex was
brought up.
When I first started to hang around with the ICC, I was constantly
invited to the movies (R-rated, sexual content, violence, profanity).
I never got to go with them, but I wonder if they did ever walk out of
a theater when a sex scene would show up. ;)
> My Bible says to
>surround myself with things that are good. I wouldn't include in that
>category songs about how a guy lusts over a photograph of a woman
>untill he is driven to scream "I wanna touch you!!"
I wonder if the ICC ever encourages their members to read the Songs of
Songs. You know, there is a lot of sexual content in there. ;)
DISCLAIMER: ICC MEMBERS, THE FOLLOWING
VERSES FROM THE WORD OF GOD MAY CAUSE
YOU TO LUST. READER DISCRETION IS ADVISED.
"My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts. My
lover is to me a cluster of henna blossoms from the vineyards of En
Gedi." Song of Songs 1:13-14.
"Strengthen me with raisins, refresh me with apples, for I am faint
with love. His left arm is under my head, and his right arm embraces
me." Song of Songs 2:5-6.
"Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you by the gazelles and by the does
of the field: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires."
Song of Songs 3:5.
"I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking:
'Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head
is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night.' I have
taken off my robe--must I put it on again?"
Songs of Songs 5:2-3.
"Who is this coming up from the desert leaning on her lover? Under
the apple tree I roused you; there your mother conceived you, there
she who was in labor gave you birth. Place me like a seal over your
heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its
jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a
mighty flame. Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot wash it
away."
Songs of Songs 8:5-7.
All scripture was taken from the NIV.
Walter.
DAnder9518
In article <4tsqbb$s...@news.ios.com>, Chris Garland
<chr...@village.ios.com> writes:
>>BTW, Amish folk are in no way "backward." It's unfortunate that
>>hollywood portrays them that way. They are extremely efficient,
>>family oriented, and VERY committed disciples of Christ. I have the
>>great fortune to have grown up near the largest community of Amish in
>>Holmes county Ohio. They are certainly admirable folk.
>But, alas, also a system that can breed legalism. My ex-girlfriend was
>excommunicated from their community because they thought her skirts were
>too short (didn't cover her *whole* ankle).
I think one example of Amish legalism is their "work with your hands"
policy. Other kinds of work are not regarded as pleasing to the Lord.
This results from a legalistic interpretation of Thessalonians, where Paul
says that people should not be "idle", but work with their hands. But
Paul said this not because the *type* of work was important, but because
there were members at Thessaolonica who were not working *at all*, and
freeloading off the other believers!
Interestingly, the ICC has (mis)interpreted the "idleness" scriptures in a
*different* direction: "warn those who are idle (not evangelizing)."
----->Dave
Ovum
Believe it or Not, the Amish actually have a web page!!! They get a
non-Amish person to download the stuff and read it to them, then they
handwrite their responses for the person to load back onto the web.
nancy
On Aug 02, 1996 23:51:17 in article <Re: San Francisco Church of Christ-
Rating their attendance>, 'kcs...@echo.sound.net (Starr)' wrote:
(Jee wrote)
>might not be sin to someone else.
How judgemental can you get?
is!
nancy
Gintas Jazbutis
and found them to be about four times as sincere and serious
about holiness than the ICC ever was (or me, for that
matter).
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Forrest
> (Starr wrote)
> >Scott, and you are just too judgmental. What would be sin to you
> >might not be sin to someone else.
>
> Where does it say this in the bible??
>
friends and relatives that feel that drinking any alcohol is a sin, so they don't. I
on the other hand, feel that the only sin is drunkeness. But I will not offer them a
coctail when they visit, because I know how they feel and I don't want to offend
their beliefs. Paul used the example of eating meat offered to idols. In his
opinion, meat is meat, regardless to whom it was offered, and as long as you are
thankful to God for it, it doesn't matter. Others felt it was no longer proper to
eat the meat. Paul said he would rather give up meat entirely than cause
someone to stumble because of it.
--
The coldest depth of Hell is reserved
for people who abandon kittens.
Robert A. Heinlein, _Friday_
Forrest
>
> I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE! Praise God!
> If he were one bit amusing I might waste the time to read his
> posts. Does his discipler know he's wasting his time here?
>
> Note, I haven't killfiled Jee, he seems to have his wits
> mostly about him.
>
> Gintas
>
> Gintas Jazbutis
> gin...@concentric.net
Actually I find Roger's posts interesting, if for no other fact that he so
wholeheartedly believes what he is saying. I don't agree withe the ICC
teachings, but he does, and I will respect that.
Bryan Forrest
Gintas Jazbutis
>I didn't read Roger's whole post responding to mine, though, and
>missed his comment about Gary. Or was it about Gary? If not, I
>hope he'll let us know. Otherwise, he's just participating in a
>group slander of a good and honest believer in Christ. If he is,
>this is wrong, and he needs to repent.
>
>But I'm not holding my breath. I don't think Roger is capable of
>believing anything negative about his leaders. Denial is not a river
>in Egypt. And, as Chesterton said about George Bernard Shaw, there
>are those who are desperately handicapped by being unable to tell a
>lie unless they believe it to be true. If you have a follower like
>that and you are a leader who hurts and abuses people, you lie to
>them. Otherwise they'd leave.
Forrest
> (Starr wrote)
> >Scott, and you are just too judgmental. What would be sin to you
> >might not be sin to someone else.
>
> (Nancy wrote)
> Where does it say this in the bible??
>
Possibly she is referring to the passage regarding matters of conscience. I have
friends and relatives that feel that drinking any alcohol is a sin, so they don't. I
on the other hand, feel that the only sin is drunkeness. But I will not offer them a
coctail when they visit, because I know how they feel and I don't want to offend
their beliefs. Paul used the example of eating meat offered to idols. In his
opinion, meat is meat, regardless to whom it was offered, and as long as you are
thankful to God for it, it doesn't matter. Others felt it was no longer proper to
eat the meat. Paul said he would rather give up meat entirely than cause
someone to stumble because of it.
LeMel HW
sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber) said:
> BTW, "Mind your own business" is a command to Christians in the Bible!
> Didja know that? <NIV>
LeMel says:
...and did you know that it is written in Ecclesiastes "money is the
answer to everything" ?
Forrest
Sorry about the double posts. My server likes to hang, and sometimes it cancels
the first post, and sometimes it doesn't.
Bryan Forrest
Scott W. Schreiber
gin...@concentric.net (Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
>
> I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE!
You can't killfile Roger! He's a protoge! If anyone ever tells you
"naww the ICC ain't like that," all you gotta do is toss one of
Roger's judgmental, intolerant posts at `em!
Scott W. Schreiber
kcs...@echo.sound.net (Starr) wrote:
>Scott, and you are just too judgmental. What would be sin to you
>might not be sin to someone else. How judgemental can you get?
Excuse me, but where did I say he was guilty of any sin?
If you would care to read my followup you will see that I also said
that these are simply my convictions, and what the Bible says, and
that there was nothing I could do that would "force" him if they were
not his convictions.
These people say they are Christians, following an accepted Christian
Bible. My post was directed at *them*. Not pagans or wiccans. Stop
taking things so personaly.
RICK & SARAH BAUER
gin...@concentric.net (Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
>
> In article <4tobt4$s...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
>snip>
> >I am also taking off for 9 days on a cruise to the Bahamas.
> >(graduation gift) I will miss devo and a church service, of which I
> >have only missed one in five years. I am still a strong member,
> >leading, spiritual, etc.
>snip>
> >The point is that I've expressed where my heart is, and why I am
> >doing what I am doing, and asking other's opinions about it. I am
> >not going to do these things without seeking advice.
<snip>
Jee, would you not take the cruise if your dp thought it a bad idea?
Would you refuse the gift and decline the cruise?
This happened to Rick and me. Rick's parents paid for a cruise for
his entire family of six children, and 10 grandchildren. It was to
be a family reunion. We were told not to go. It was scheduled for
the Spring of 1988, the exact time we were moving from Denver to
Boston. We did not go. We refused the gift and declined, because
Kip told us not to go, that the timing was bad.
You see, seeking advice is more that getting someone elses opinion.
It is requesting permission. What would have happened if we had
not listened to Kip's opinion?
Well, it's obvious what eventually happened was our leaving the ICC.
Sarah
James Winter
>>
>> I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE! Praise God!
>> If he were one bit amusing I might waste the time to read his
>> posts. Does his discipler know he's wasting his time here?
>>
>> Note, I haven't killfiled Jee, he seems to have his wits
>> mostly about him.
>>
> Gintas
>
>> Gintas Jazbutis
>> gin...@concentric.net
>Actually I find Roger's posts interesting, if for no other fact that >he so
>wholeheartedly believes what he is saying. I don't agree withe the ICC
>teachings, but he does, and I will respect that.
>Bryan Forrest
>--
>The coldest depth of Hell is reserved
>for people who abandon kittens.
> Robert A. Heinlein, _Friday_
Roger's mind-numbed dogma is very interesting to me too. I'm sure
he's thrilled about the fact that he can no longer get away with
"That sort of thing doesn't happen here at the awesome SFCoC, where
we're doing everything perfectly and no people are being hurt, no
falsities are being taught, yatta, yatta, yatta....." Because myself
and some other new folks on the ng have *intimate* and *personal*
experience with Roger's little corner of "the kingdom" and we know
what really goes on.
Dear Roger: <with much sarcasm> Watch your life and doctrine closely
Bro, because we've been there and done that.
Catherine Hampton
Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
: gin...@concentric.net (Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
: > I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE!
: You can't killfile Roger! He's a protoge! If anyone ever tells you
: "naww the ICC ain't like that," all you gotta do is toss one of
: Roger's judgmental, intolerant posts at `em!
I'm not sure I'd want to encourage that line of reasoning. There
have been ICC opponents on this newsgroup about whom ICC members could
say the same thing. :( Anyone want to be compared to Kevin Dirks?
Catherine
karen liu
On 2 Aug 1996, Chris Garland wrote:
>
> I see what your are saying Kim (and I hope you feel better), but I
> wholeheartedly believe that the ICC's system of reporting ones absence is
> based on control -- flat out. Nothing else. Some individuals may believe
> they continue to follow the example of the leaders in following up on
> people who miss service out of concern (and they may really be
> concerned), but control is, in my opinion, the central dominant theme. It
> radiates through everything they do. Lack of faith is a close second.
> You *wanted* help in your above example. Big difference between wanting
> help, and having it forced on you.
hi, i managed to scrape about 5 minutes to spend on the net...
but i just wanted to say that i don't think that is a basis of
control...it's just like when i am too sick to go to school i call my
friends up and tell them i won't be there so they don't wonder what
happened to me, if, for example, i may have been involved in an accident
or anything....it's just that people would expect you to be at the
service, same way as people expect you to be at your desk when you are
working or to be in class when you have school, and it's just out of
consideration for other people that you let them know what the
circumstances of your situation is when you are not where other people
expect you to be...like phoning your parents to let them know where you
are so they aren't worrying on saturday night
i honestly don't see what the big deal is in letting people know the
reason why you weren't at a service unless the person is doing something
that is blatantly "bad" and needs to hide it
if you were sick, you were sick, if one of your kids were sick, then
that's the situation and needs to be dealt with..the list could go on and
on for legitimate excuses not to be at a service
thanks for letting me be open with my opinions
karen
Scott W. Schreiber
ar...@nntp.best.com (Catherine Hampton) wrote:
>I'm not sure I'd want to encourage that line of reasoning. There
>have been ICC opponents on this newsgroup about whom ICC members could
>say the same thing.
You are right, but I have NEVER EVER heard one of them say they are
the only ones living the correct and godly life, or that they are the
only saved Christians, or passing judgement so frequently......Need I
continue?
Smlleecat6
Walter wrote:
>When I first started to hang around with the ICC, I was constantly
>invited to the movies (R-rated, sexual content, violence, profanity).
>I never got to go with them, but I wonder if they did ever walk out of
>a theater when a sex scene would show up. ;)
Yes. I saw a movie with three other ICC members once (I was a member at
the time). One of them had already seen the movie and said there was a
sex scene. She said she would let us know when it was about to come on.
When she said it was about to come on, they all got up and walked out. I
stayed. There was no sex scene. The girl picked the wrong scene. I told
them when they came back that nothing happened. They ended up sitting
through the sex scene.
Walter Semerenko
On Thu, 01 Aug 1996 21:06:51 GMT sco...@nhr.com (Scott W. Schreiber)
wrote:
>ja...@sonicsys.com (Jason) wrote:
>>I like music like Slayer and White Zombie,
>Ya know, there's plenty of really good Christian metal out there.
>Check out Mortification. About as heavy as Slayer, but with a message
>other than "Serve our master Lucifer..."
Mortification has equally as bad lyrics. In fact, I find there lyrics
to be repulsive. Lyrics contain mostly trite repitition of dogma and
preachy nonsense. Jason Sorens wrote an interesting article entitled
"A New Perspective on the "Christian Metal" Industry."
http://www.ratw.com/creation/issue_5/christian.html
I prefer to listen to Galactic Cowboys, King's X, Tourniquet, and a
few others. There aren't many good metal music under the christian
label, and band like KX and GC don't like that label attached to them.
Most of the music that I listen to is on the "secular" side (Dream
Theater, echolyn, Shadow Gallery, Extreme)
> I have listened to Slayer,
>and others like Venom and Pantera, and as my convictions deepened and
>God straightened me out, I saw that those groups were filling my mind
>with junk.
IMO, you should listen to music for its artistic merits. If I don't
like the lyrics, I sort out the crap and take what is good.
Walter.
Gintas Jazbutis
>them to come to San Diego to see them in concert for the first time.
>But it happens to be on the same night as devo......what to do what
>to do what to do......
>
Improve your taste?
>Well, I'm going to the concert, and I will attend another midweek
>devo because I won't see DL for atleast another 3 years. I haven't
>missed devo in several years, but my heart still wants to be there,
>and due to the extenuating circumstances, I will miss devo...but you
>see, I explained my situation, got advice, and planned a month in
>advance.
>
Situation? What if you hadn't asked advice? You'd be a
rebel, which is in line with Def Leppard's style anyway.
>I am also taking off for 9 days on a cruise to the Bahamas.
>(graduation gift) I will miss devo and a church service, of which I
>have only missed one in five years. I am still a strong member,
>leading, spiritual, etc.
>
Not after that cruise, stuffing yourself fuller than a tick,
gambling, watching all those dancing girls... Have fun!
(I mean, what else would there be to do on a cruise?
Lounge around? Get Roger's view on that...)
>The point is that I've expressed where my heart is, and why I am
>doing what I am doing, and asking other's opinions about it. I am
>not going to do these things without seeking advice.
>
Why not? I still wonder what you're doing at a Def Leppard
concert, what kind of advice are you getting?
>
>Jeetendra Manghani
>member of San Diego Church of Christ
Gintas
Gintas Jazbutis
gin...@concentric.net
Catherine Hampton
: You are right, but I have NEVER EVER heard one of them say they are
: the only ones living the correct and godly life, or that they are the
: only saved Christians, or passing judgement so frequently......Need I
: continue?
No. Where Mr. Dirk was concerned, though, I thought what he was
saying was just as obnoxious. I've run across plenty of people
who believe they are the only ones going to heaven and who pass
judgment just as frequently as Roger, and they haven't all been
members of the ICOC. Some of them haven't been as honest about it,
either. And while there are times when I wish Roger wasn't as
blunt about what he believes, all in all I'd rather know.
<wry grin>
Catherine
EOshiro
I once missed a Sunday service because my legs were horribly sunburned
from the day before.
I'm sure it would surprise some people that no one said, "Jesus hung on a
cross for your sins, and you can't drag yourself out of bed to come to
church?!?"
Or even anything remotly similar to that.
Starr
ar...@nntp.best.com (Catherine Hampton) wrote:
>Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
>: gin...@concentric.net (Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
>: > I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE!
>: You can't killfile Roger! He's a protoge! If anyone ever tells you
>: "naww the ICC ain't like that," all you gotta do is toss one of
>: Roger's judgmental, intolerant posts at `em!
>I'm not sure I'd want to encourage that line of reasoning. There
>have been ICC opponents on this newsgroup about whom ICC members could
>say the same thing. :( Anyone want to be compared to Kevin Dirks?
>Catherine
YIKES! <running other direction as fast as humanly possible....> Or
how about old, EMjay, a supposed "opponent" of the ICC who "had
nothing to do with them" yet who supported them every chance he got?
Starr
jman...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Jeetendra Manghani) wrote:
<snippage>
>Def Leppard is my favorite group. I've waited for about 7 years for
>them to come to San Diego to see them in concert for the first time.
>But it happens to be on the same night as devo......what to do what
>to do what to do......
<snippage>
You know what, for everyone who self-righteously criticized Jee for
his choice of music, I give a great big thhhhhhbbbbbbbbppppppttttttt!
(That's a rasberry in case you didn't figure that out). You can quote
"out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks all you want". I
for one think that music, like books, like television, like movies,
has only the power *we* give it over ourselves. If we happen to like
it, fine. If it makes us uncomfortable, we have an off button. What
would not be comfortable for one is fine for another. It's a
*personal* judgment call. For one to judge another based on their
choice of music instead of their lifestyle is pretty prejudicial,
IMHO.
And here's something to think about in re: Def Leppard. The drummer
lost his arm in a traffic accident. He didn't give in to alcohol and
despair. He learned how to drum one-armed. His group didn't give up
on him and say "Hey, guess we gotta get a new drummer" They waited
until he could play. They stuck together.
Take another "satanic evil group" Aerosmith. Now, they had their
moments - drug & alcohol addiction, womanizing. Now, they are clean
and sober, and actively speak to other musicians about the dangers of
such a lifestyle. And they made the comeback of the century after
basically ruining their career over drugs.
Judging is the easiest thing in the world to do and it's usually
wrong.
Carol2180
In article <4tnj4f$m...@news.ios.com>, Chris Garland
<chr...@village.ios.com> writes:
>Well, this is entirely untrue. In New York, in order to become a
>simple Bible Talk leader, one had to baptize someone. In order to be on
>staff, one had to be the most fruitful person in ones ministry. This was
>policy. Stated policy.
Yes, Chris ... as a matter of fact, from the "Taking It Higher" -- NYCCoC
Women's Day manual:
Qualifications of Leadership:
I. Bible Talk Assistant: (3) consistant in reaching out to people
II. Bible Talk Leader: (1) consistently fruitful
III. House Church Leader: (1) consistently fruitful
IV. Trainee: (none relating to fruitfulness)
V. Intern: (none relating to fruitfulness)
VI. Zone Leader: (1) consistently/abundantly fruitful
VII. Women's Counselor: (1) abundantly fruitful
Chris Garland
ar...@nntp.best.com (Catherine Hampton) wrote:
>Scott W. Schreiber (sco...@nhr.com) wrote:
>
>: gin...@concentric.net (Gintas Jazbutis) wrote:
>
>: > I've finally solved the Roger problem. KILLFILE!
>
>: You can't killfile Roger! He's a protoge! If anyone ever tells you
>: "naww the ICC ain't like that," all you gotta do is toss one of
>: Roger's judgmental, intolerant posts at `em!
>
>I'm not sure I'd want to encourage that line of reasoning. There
>have been ICC opponents on this newsgroup about whom ICC members could
>say the same thing. :( Anyone want to be compared to Kevin Dirks?
Oh, was he an ICC critic? I never bothered to read past the headers on
those.