Open letter from Henry Kriete, Evangelists, London Church of Christ
Curtis Eickerman
http://www.cadebryant.com/thedeepervoice/henry-kriete_HonestToGod.htm
Yeah, I know it's on Cade's web site, and that makes it even more
interesting.
Comments?
Curtis Eickerman
Phoenix ICC Ex-member Support
http://members.cox.net/mevonw
Allen Barnett
***
He took it down.
--
Allen Barnett
Lawrenceville, Georgia
Curtis Eickerman
news:SXA1a.8359$q91.1...@news2.west.cox.net...
> In case any of you have missed this. You really ought to read.....
>
> http://www.cadebryant.com/thedeepervoice/henry-kriete_HonestToGod.htm
>
> Yeah, I know it's on Cade's web site, and that makes it even more
> interesting.
>
> Comments?
<snip>
Guess Cade couldn't take the heat. His web page is GONE. Cade's posting of
it on the Delphi ICC Discussion page is GONE (no doubt deleted by Cade).
It's tough being a member of the ICC.
Fortunately others have made copies. The letter can also be found in the
attachment to a Delphi posting at
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ExIcoc_support/messages/?msg=2416.7
John Engler
It isn't about Cade and the heat.
There is some doubt about whether Henry intended this to be made as
public as it had become.
I've contacted Henry via email requesting permission to put the letter
on the Barnabas Ministry website (http://www.barnabasministry.com),
but have not yet heard back from him.
Honestly, it's Henry's letter and a bit presumptuous for others to
publish it or use it in a way that was not authorized by him.
Nonetheless, it is marked as an "open letter" so there appears to be
some confusion about his intent.
John
Allen Barnett
>
> It isn't about Cade and the heat.
>
> There is some doubt about whether Henry intended this to be made as
> public as it had become.
>
> I've contacted Henry via email requesting permission to put the letter
> on the Barnabas Ministry website (http://www.barnabasministry.com),
> but have not yet heard back from him.
>
> Honestly, it's Henry's letter and a bit presumptuous for others to
> publish it or use it in a way that was not authorized by him.
> Nonetheless, it is marked as an "open letter" so there appears to be
> some confusion about his intent.
>
> John
***
Naw ... An Englishman never makes a mistake with his English.
Dictionary.com is not a bit confused about the term:
open letter
n.
A published letter on a subject of general interest, addressed to
a person but intended for general readership.
Allen Barnett
>
> Fortunately others have made copies. The letter can also be found in the
> attachment to a Delphi posting at
>
> http://forums.delphiforums.com/ExIcoc_support/messages/?msg=2416.7
***
It's here as well:
http://home.earthlink.net/~guyloginin/HONEST.doc
Curtis Eickerman
"Allen Barnett" <rab...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3E4811BE...@bellsouth.net...
John, I have to agree with Allen. My take as well was that "Open Letter"
means exactly what it said it means. I also noted that Henry was not the
one who requested that Cade remove the letter. In any event, the cat is out
of the bag, and nothing is going to undo that.
The simple fact is that this letter has struck a resonant chord with members
and ex-members alike. Both sides are saying the man hit the nail on the
head. They might disagree with a few things here and there, and feel some
parts are a little presumptuous, but the basics are as stated.
The bottom line is this letter would have never seen the light of day if the
leadership of the ICC had done what it should have been doing the last 18
months. It's only 18 months of foot dragging, lack of changes, and
pointless "Unity Letters" that prompted the release of this letter. Yet
some may think 18 months is not being patient enough. Well, the problems
have been staring the leadership in the face for over 20 years. I think
people's patience has run out for pretty good reason.
There isn't anything in Henry's letter that hasn't been said countless times
before. The difference is that this time the ICC machine (like the one that
rolled over Indy) is seriously broken and isn't likely going to be able to
smooth over this bump in the road.
Allen Barnett
> ...
> The simple fact is that this letter has struck a resonant chord with members
> and ex-members alike. Both sides are saying the man hit the nail on the
> head. They might disagree with a few things here and there, and feel some
> parts are a little presumptuous, but the basics are as stated.
***
Have you thought about WHY this letter is so well accepted? I
have. And I think it's because Henry is a year 2003 Leader - and
he's saying things applicable to *today's ICC*. He has watched
recent events unfold - and he is not happy with the direction he
sees being set by upper leadership.
We all know [and have seen] - how the current ICC leadership
tends to say one thing [in circular speak no less] - while their
full intention is to do another.
I think Henry has their number Big Time! And by passing this
letter about - in many cases - it has reached the proper hands
prior to any more Bull being promoted.
Mark Wuest
> The bottom line is this letter would have never seen the light of day if the
> leadership of the ICC had done what it should have been doing the last 18
> months. It's only 18 months of foot dragging, lack of changes, and
> pointless "Unity Letters" that prompted the release of this letter. Yet
> some may think 18 months is not being patient enough. Well, the problems
> have been staring the leadership in the face for over 20 years. I think
> people's patience has run out for pretty good reason.
Wow, more than one bottom line. Here's another one: The bottom line is
this letter would never have seen the light of day if there had never
been a "failed", "so-called" (Henry's words) unity conference. Their
evangelist would not have gone, would not have come back with a little
dose of humility, opened up to criticism, gotten fired, given Henry
"...the strength to get up and do what needs to be done..." without
any Powdermilk Biscuits.
As our friend Alanis Morisette asked so eloquently, "Isn't It Ironic?"
OTOH, we never know what would have happened, do we?
Mark
Curtis Eickerman
> Curtis Eickerman wrote:
> > ...
>
> > The simple fact is that this letter has struck a resonant chord with
> > members and ex-members alike. Both sides are saying the man
> > hit the nail on the head. They might disagree with a few things
> > here and there, and feel some parts are a little presumptuous, but
> > the basics are as stated.
>
> ***
>
> Have you thought about WHY this letter is so well accepted? I
> have. And I think it's because Henry is a year 2003 Leader - and
> he's saying things applicable to *today's ICC*. He has watched
> recent events unfold - and he is not happy with the direction he
> sees being set by upper leadership.
I think the fact that it is addressing todays ICC is a good point. One of
the recurring themes I have written about over the years is that I'm not as
concerned about what happened 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago as I am about what
happens in the ICC to people today. I have even forgiven everyone for the
things that were done to me in the ICC. Yet, what will make me angry right
now are the things the ICC continues to do today.
A current member posted that the change he has seen in his congregation is
moving mid-week contribution back to Sunday (something that bounced back and
forth several times during my 9 year membership). No apologies. Nothing
about the Unity Conference. Nothing about real substantive changes. Simply
business as usual. This is heart breaking.
This is change? Not for an instant. There are STILL people right now,
today, dealing directly with the very issues raised in Henry's letter. I am
also afraid if someone was not willing to say the things Henry has said many
of these people would still be dealing with those same issues tomorrow, next
week, next month, next year, and maybe even a lifetime from now.
Yet, will Henry's letter make the ICC change? Nope. Letters have come and
gone before. The only thing that will change the ICC is the membership that
has allowed their own personal responsibility to be subjugated by the
leadership of the ICC. When the membership puts their foot down and says
"Enough!" as Henry has done, things will change one way or another. Either
the ICC leadership will repent, or the members will leave to find their
freedom in Christ.
> We all know [and have seen] - how the current ICC leadership
> tends to say one thing [in circular speak no less] - while their
> full intention is to do another.
And the membership has let them get away with that. I was as guilty as
anyone while a member. Surely they have been trained not to think and not
to feel, but as Henry said they are not stupid. Even the most co-dependent
among them will eventually hit their limit of toleration (it's actually a
characteristic of co-dependency). Those who let leadership control every
aspect of their lives will eventually explode, and Henry's letter just might
be the trigger that starts a chain reaction.
> I think Henry has their number Big Time! And by passing this
> letter about - in many cases - it has reached the proper hands
> prior to any more Bull being promoted.
Clearly the ICC leadership has been dragging out any possible changes for a
very long time. They've had 18 months as Henry noted. Still they want to
drag it out past this years SMC because they "need" the money. They don't
"need" the money, they "want" the money. The leaders need to go get real
jobs and stop living off of the people they have been sucking dry for years.
They also have been trying to slowly make little transitions here and there
to "change" without ever owning up to the problems, their guilt, and their
duplicity in what they have either caused or allowed to happen. At this
point I feel that if there is any integrity left in any of them they would
all be issuing public letters like Henry's and all start living in
accordance with what they say. I haven't seen any signs yet.
Someone asked what the "LA ratio" was in one posting. The "LA ratio" I am
interesting in is the ratio of leaders with integrity to those without any
integrity. Still waiting for the number to creep up from zero.
Where is the leadership that used to say, "Show us where we are wrong and we
will change." Well, once again someone has showed you where you are wrong.
What'll it be this time? More of the same? The ball's in your court, and
it's time to do the right thing.
I'm just about convinced that if it wasn't for the the ICC leadership loving
their power, money, and lifestyles the ICC could have changed over night.
It feels as if they really have become modern day Pharisees.
> --
> Allen Barnett
> Lawrenceville, Georgia
Curtis Eickerman
Curtis Eickerman
news:d23b664c.03021...@posting.google.com...
Yes there is indeed irony. Of course you could say that if it were not for
20 years of abuses and problems there wouldn't have ever been a letter
either. Clearly the fact that long term abuse lead to the release of the
letter doesn't make the abuse a "good" thing either.
I think it became increasingly clear to all concerned that the Unity
Conference had all the appearances of one of those myriad of non-change
changes we all lived through as members of the ICC. Yep, re-arrange the
deck chairs on the Titanic, get a few people to sign a meaningless
proclaimation that they didn't even write, slap a few new names on something
and full steam ahead. No public admission in detail of the real problems,
no personal acceptance of responsibility, no sincere apology to members and
ex-members alike. Good grief, there are ICC congregations that don't even
know there WAS a Unity Conference!
The Unity Conference may have been something of a concession to those who
have been trying to change things from inside the ICC, but in the end it
seems to have done little more than frustrate people by failing to address
the very issues that gave rise to it in the first place.
You know what some people got out of the Unity Conference? -- We had a
conference, we've changed from the WSL leadership to a committee, and we all
need to be united with our leadership. So, don't be critical, and get out
there sharing!-- Like I said, rearranging deck chairs, change a few names,
now back to business as usual.
Prior to what Henry referred to as the "so called Unity Conference" there
have been leaders here and there who have also been personally frustrated by
the lack of corrective actions. Fortunately I believe some of them are
going ahead with addressing the problems in spite of (rather than becaue of)
the Unity Conference.
Time will tell how the ICC leadership in general reacts to those who are
done waiting for real changes.
John Engler
I agree with you and Allen on the "open letter" thing; I even quoted a
definition from MY dictionary on one of the Delphi Forii. Open letter
means public.
Jaz
$q91.1...@news2.west.cox.net:
> In case any of you have missed this. You really ought to read.....
>
> http://www.cadebryant.com/thedeepervoice/henry-kriete_HonestToGod.htm
>
> Yeah, I know it's on Cade's web site, and that makes it even more
> interesting.
>
> Comments?
>
He's still stuck in the "God Movements" mode and, of course, he is in it.
It all is strangely reminiscent of Jerusalem in the days of Jeremiah, and
the Babylonian cloud is gathering.
Catherine Hampton
<eick...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
>In case any of you have missed this. You really ought to read.....
>
>http://www.cadebryant.com/thedeepervoice/henry-kriete_HonestToGod.htm
>
>Yeah, I know it's on Cade's web site, and that makes it even more
>interesting.
>
>Comments?
I couldn't find the page at the URL you listed -- it's gone. However,
someone emailed me a copy of what was supposed to be the same letter
as a word file. It ended up in a backup/probable spam/suspcious
content folder, because Word documents can contain viruses. (Hint for
whoever sent this to me -- turn it into PDF first and I'm more likely
to get it.) ;> After scanning it for viruses on my server, I
downloaded and read it.
It was an interesting read.... I'll have to read it more closely when
I'm less busy. It sounds like the guy is just starting to see some of
what a lot of us have been saying for years. Since it took me ten
years to see it, though, I'm no one to complain about someone else
being slow. <wry grin>
I admit I found Henry Kriete's comments about women being too weak to
handle the burdens of leadership both condescending and offensive. I
have no interest in being a leader in the church -- didn't in the
ICOC, don't now -- or an executive in business. I don't think that
what suits someone to be a leader has anything to do with their
gender, though. I saw both men and women destroyed by the impossible
expectations and constant pressure in the ICOC, and noticed no
particular difference in the rate of destruction.
I wish Ayman Akshar were still around to read this. He was the
administrator for the London Church of Christ before he left in the
1991-1992 era that Mr. Kriete talks so movingly about. Ayman could
have written much of what Mr. Kriete said about that era -- and did
write some of it . I wonder if they knew each other.... (For those
who didn't know, Ayman died early last year after a long battle with
cancer.)
Interesting times in London....
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@tempest.boxmail.com>
Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header
is a spam trap.)
Catherine Hampton
Engler) wrote:
>Honestly, it's Henry's letter and a bit presumptuous for others to
>publish it or use it in a way that was not authorized by him.
>Nonetheless, it is marked as an "open letter" so there appears to be
>some confusion about his intent.
Yes. There's also the fact that the letter has travelled around the
world by now. I've had people contacting me asking questions about it
from all over, and suspect Michelle has had quite a few more. (I
haven't been active in REVEAL for some years now.)
Patrick Slater
Thanks for posting the letter on the Barnabas site. I don't know
Henry's intentions with regard for the audience of the letter but I do
know it is powerful and moving and could be used for tremendous good
within the ICC. The ICC bashers will use it for personal gain and it
would be a waste for it not to be posted for benefit to the membership
of the church. Although I have not yet read the many responses from
various ICC leaders, I have heard that there is little disagreement
with the content of his letter. My hope is that the members of the
ICC will read the letter with their own eyes and will be able to ask
questions before an "official response" is crafted. Thanks John.
John Engler
to host his letter on the Barnabas Ministry website. Here's the URL:
James A. Robbins
news:2b43a345.03022...@posting.google.com...
> Just so everybody over here knows, Henry Kriete did give me permission
> to host his letter on the Barnabas Ministry website. Here's the URL:
>
> http://www.barnabasministry.com/church-kriete-htg.html
Thank you, John, for hosting this letter.
And thank you for much of the other material on your site.
I have just finished reading your article A Question Of Balance. I found
it quite refreshing, although I don't believe it addressed some very
important points such as the question of changing the gospel message
in light of Paul's comments in Galatians 1:6-9.
I also really liked your comments on the Cross Study. The whole message
of the cross is not about us, but about God. As you point out it shouldn't
make us feel guilty, but incredibly loved.
--
James A. Robbins
Network Engineer
The Ohio State University
Chemistry Department
John Engler
Question of Balance was written 3 years ago. To me, it's amazing how
much of it's subject matter has been addressed or is being addressed.
I was trying to take my best shot at what the problem really was, the
"one" thing that if it coudl get dealt with, the rest would follow.
Thanks for the encouraging comments.
James A. Robbins
I would like to send him a note but also wish to respect his privacy if
his email address is not public.
Jamie Gunn
I have been a lurker on the thread for the past year or so. This is
my first post in newsgroup situation.
My first post is a plea. Please pray for us as a Church. I
understand that are a lot of people who do not agree with us, but as
it states in James 1:5, God will give Wisdom to those who ask with
faith, please pray that God will grant us Wisdom. Throughout the
Church, we are getting up at 5:00 AM for the next two weeks and
praying that God will make His will very clear. Please join us in
this. Let us put our differences aside and pray for the unity of the
Christians throughout the Earth. Unity of Christians "inside" the
ICOC and unity "outside" of the ICOC.
With love,
Jamie Gunn
Milwaukee Church of Christ
gu...@msoe.edu
Catherine Hampton <spam...@spambouncer.org> wrote in message news:<aeal4v8heu54ideri...@4ax.com>...
James A. Robbins
news:2398e988.0302...@posting.google.com...
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have been a lurker on the thread for the past year or so. This is
> my first post in newsgroup situation.
>
> My first post is a plea. Please pray for us as a Church. I
> understand that are a lot of people who do not agree with us, but as
> it states in James 1:5, God will give Wisdom to those who ask with
> faith, please pray that God will grant us Wisdom. Throughout the
> Church, we are getting up at 5:00 AM for the next two weeks and
> praying that God will make His will very clear. Please join us in
> this. Let us put our differences aside and pray for the unity of the
> Christians throughout the Earth. Unity of Christians "inside" the
> ICOC and unity "outside" of the ICOC.
>
> With love,
>
> Jamie Gunn
> Milwaukee Church of Christ
> gu...@msoe.edu
Hi Jamie,
Believe it or not many of us have been praying for the ICOC
for years. We never did want to see the church destroyed;
just the abuses stopped and the hypocrisy and ungodliness
repented of. It looks like many are making sincere efforts at
obtaining these goals and to that end the church will receive
all the support we can give it. May God bless the efforts going
on to make things right.
Jamie Gunn
> We never did want to see the church destroyed;
> just the abuses stopped and the hypocrisy and ungodliness
> repented of.
Thank you so much for expressing your heart. I truly believe that
God is working. While there is a lot of confusion surrounding
Henry's letter, and whether the intention was for it to be public
so immediately, I am grateful for his courage. However while it
has been argued in the past that as a whole we have been following
a man, I personally am working with those around me to make sure
that Henry does not become our 'Paul' or 'Apollos'.
> It looks like many are making sincere efforts at
> obtaining these goals and to that end the church will receive
> all the support we can give it. May God bless the efforts going
> on to make things right.
While we have sincerely been doing what we thought was right in the
past, it still does not make it right. According to our own Word
study, sincerity does not equal Truth. (John 8:31-32)
As a another contributer put it in a private e-mail, "try asking for
forgiveness, try ***earning*** forgiveness" (I paraphrase). While we
do
our best to earn the forgiveness of those around us (not that works
will get us into Heaven mind you), but as we prepare our hearts (and
desire to eagerly desire to repent and turn from sinful ways) to face
and reconcile with those that we have hurt so much, please pray that
we
have the courage to face them. Please pray for our hearts to be
genuinely repentent. Please pray that my words are not merely lip
service. Please
pray that we are in tune with the Holy Spirit. Please pray that our
only motives are to bring glory to God. We can not do this on our
own.
We need the power of God to be able to reconcile the hurt that we have
caused.
Please everyone, please be unified with me, and pray for our Church.
With Christ,
Jamie Gunn
Milwaukee Church of Christ
gu...@msoe.edu
"James A. Robbins" <robb...@osu.edu> wrote in message news:<b3m6be$4gm$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
Allen Barnett
> Hi James,
>
> While we have sincerely been doing what we thought was right in the
> past, it still does not make it right. According to our own Word
> study, sincerity does not equal Truth. (John 8:31-32)
***
Errrr ... Jamie,
One of the problems Henry pointed out is that the ICC System and
Leaders have been supplying too many of the answers for you.
With each answer comes a spin that leads you further from the truth.
You would be wise to seek input for study from a wide variety of
sources. For example - it is clear that you came to this
newsgroup for comment or study.
Perhaps you would find something of interest at the Delphi ICC
Discussion Forum. It is open to the public - you can read as a
guest - but would have to sign-up to get posting privileges.
I will provide a link to the Guest entry page:
>
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/start
Jaz
@bellsouth.net:
> Perhaps you would find something of interest at the Delphi ICC
> Discussion Forum. It is open to the public - you can read as a
> guest - but would have to sign-up to get posting privileges.
>
> I will provide a link to the Guest entry page:
>
> >
> http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICCdiscussion/start
>
I guess it's _the_ place to be, but it's really a wretched place to try to
discuss anything. Dreadful interface, no threading, a miserable experience
overall. I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's good for the
occasional inside tidbits about the ICC.
Allen Barnett
> ...
RE: Delphi
> I guess it's _the_ place to be, but it's really a wretched place to try to
> discuss anything. Dreadful interface, no threading, a miserable experience
> overall. I can't be bothered with it anymore. It's good for the
> occasional inside tidbits about the ICC.
***
Well - you do have to have Broadband, Ad Filtering Software,
SpyWare Prevention, a really Hot Computer, 800x600 Graphics and a
couple hundred other goodies - including massive levels of
patience ... but yes - that's where lots of information is coming
from.
Jamie Gunn
I took your advice on going on to Delphi and have been conversing with
the 'crew. As stated before, I have been lurking for quite some time
now, and there was nothing new on there that I have not seen on any of
the 'critics' websites or on here (different threads) except for the
number of members who are extremely 'out-typen'-->(a reach? :P) Wow!
People are very upset (rightly so).
I really do not want to argue. I am well aware of how we have 'jacked
it up' in a number of categories (take your pick). I guess in my
previous posts I just HOPED that the road to recovery could begin, and
I wanted to be a part of it and thought that here would be a good
starting place to express that HOPE.
Sincerely,
Jamie Gunn
Milwaukee Church of Christ
gu...@msoe.edu
Allen Barnett <rab...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<3E621F81...@bellsouth.net>...
Anatoly Kozlovsky
"John Engler" <eng...@barnabasministry.com>
news:2b43a345.03021...@posting.google.com...
>
> It isn't about Cade and the heat.
>
> There is some doubt about whether Henry intended this to be made as
> public as it had become.
>
> I've contacted Henry via email requesting permission to put the letter
> on the Barnabas Ministry website (http://www.barnabasministry.com),
> but have not yet heard back from him.
>
> Honestly, it's Henry's letter and a bit presumptuous for others to
> publish it or use it in a way that was not authorized by him.
> Nonetheless, it is marked as an "open letter" so there appears to be
> some confusion about his intent.
>
> John
> It isn't about Cade and the heat.
>
> There is some doubt about whether Henry intended this to be made as
> public as it had become.
>
> I've contacted Henry via email requesting permission to put the letter
> on the Barnabas Ministry website (http://www.barnabasministry.com),
> but have not yet heard back from him.
>
> Honestly, it's Henry's letter and a bit presumptuous for others to
> publish it or use it in a way that was not authorized by him.
> Nonetheless, it is marked as an "open letter" so there appears to be
> some confusion about his intent.
>
> John
John,
I'm from Russia and never meet Henry but I requested his OpenLetter and
replied w/the attached "Honest to God" file.
Take care
Anatoly
Allen Barnett
> John,
> I'm from Russia and never meet Henry but I requested his OpenLetter and
> replied w/the attached "Honest to God" file.
>
> Take care
> Anatoly
***
Anatoly,
John Engler flapped his wings ... one time he went up - next time
he went down. I think he's licking his wounds and re-reading his
Bible at the same time. Many people have lost *their ICC*. It's
a good time to read the HKL --- and compare the ICC to the Bible.
Kip McKean's -- FP idea of a Kingdom as King -- is gone.
John Engler
>
> Anatoly,
>
> John Engler flapped his wings ... one time he went up - next time
> he went down. I think he's licking his wounds and re-reading his
> Bible at the same time.
Huh? Wings? Wounds? Care to explain?
James A. Robbins
Is everything cool in Denver?
To be honest I'm a bit frightened by the rate of change
(I bet you never thought you'd hear that from a critic).
When people move too quickly to make changes sometimes
people get hurt. I don't want to see that happen to either
leaders or normal members.
James A. Robbins
If so say high for me and send my love (and email address).
John Engler
Hi James,
Denver is doing OK. I can't speak for other congregations but it does
seem like there's been this "rush" of statements and apologies. I hope
and trust everyone's hearts are in the right place, but I do question
whether people realize statements of apology need to be followed up
with real paradigm and culture changes, or they are more or less
worthless. Real changes are no easy task.
Denver has had town meetings; one trial-run in January (before the
Kriete bombshell), one mini-meeting after dual hot issues came up
here-- the Kriete letter and we've got a local building project coming
to a head. Then, we had individual town meetings in each region last
week, and a congregatonal devo tomorrow night. We have great elders
here who are taking things seriously and looking not just for some
superficial statement to make, but looking at making significant and
real changes that make sense for us. There's so many areas to look at,
they've listened to a lot and we've all had to do a lot of
prioritizing.
I don't think we'll have any immediate staff carnage (dismisals) but
the church culture and many other elements will be changing. I expect
at tomorrow night's devo there will be a public statement read, and it
will soon be released on the web page and "everywhere." I think it
will include confession of some specific things as well as statements
of affirmation of certain things as well.
To people who think the internet is the only world out there, Denver
might look like "nothing is happening." But that couldn't be further
from the truth. I'd rather have real progress towards significant
change than a quick letter and then back to business as usual. Real
change takes time.
Here in Denver, we've been working on all sorts of changes for years,
changing the culture of a lot of stuff. The Kriete letter provided a
critical mass that resonated with the people and moved some items way
higher up the priority list for the staff and elders. But most
old-timers here were not shocked by it, it was like "ok , maybe we can
get somewhere on some of this now." And yet, I'm a little nervous
about hasty changes and mob rule. I don't think we have that happening
here, but I think that's the impression I'm getting in some other
places.
But statements of confession aren't the most important thing. Real
change is. And it's theological, cultural, practical type changes, and
heart changes for people too. I think we're going to be ok here, but
... time will tell.
John
John Engler
> Hay, John. Do you know the Priestley's (Todd and Georgia)?
> If so say high for me and send my love (and email address).
I've known them quite well for years. No doubt you know them from old
Columbus days. I'll pass along the greeting and email address.
John
James A. Robbins
> "James A. Robbins" <robb...@osu.edu> wrote in message
news:<b4r07m$e5r$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
> > Hay John,
> > Is everything cool in Denver?
> >
> > To be honest I'm a bit frightened by the rate of change
> > (I bet you never thought you'd hear that from a critic).
> > When people move too quickly to make changes sometimes
> > people get hurt. I don't want to see that happen to either
> > leaders or normal members.
>
> Hi James,
>
> Denver is doing OK. I can't speak for other congregations but it does
> seem like there's been this "rush" of statements and apologies. I hope
> and trust everyone's hearts are in the right place, but I do question
> whether people realize statements of apology need to be followed up
> with real paradigm and culture changes, or they are more or less
> worthless. Real changes are no easy task.
Amen.
That is what I'm afraid of. I hate to see good hearted men have to leave
the leadership just when they can do a lot of good. I also hate to see
the many who will leave Christ and become cinical over this.
> But statements of confession aren't the most important thing. Real
> change is. And it's theological, cultural, practical type changes, and
> heart changes for people too. I think we're going to be ok here, but
> ... time will tell.
It is *so* good to hear this. May God bless you in carrying out those
changes.
James A. Robbins
news:2b43a345.03031...@posting.google.com...
news:<b4r07m$e5r$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
> > Hay John,
> > Is everything cool in Denver?
> >
> > To be honest I'm a bit frightened by the rate of change
> > (I bet you never thought you'd hear that from a critic).
> > When people move too quickly to make changes sometimes
> > people get hurt. I don't want to see that happen to either
> > leaders or normal members.
>
> Hi James,
>
> Denver is doing OK. I can't speak for other congregations but it does
> seem like there's been this "rush" of statements and apologies. I hope
> and trust everyone's hearts are in the right place, but I do question
> whether people realize statements of apology need to be followed up
> with real paradigm and culture changes, or they are more or less
> worthless. Real changes are no easy task.
Amen.
That is what I'm afraid of. I hate to see good hearted men have to leave
the leadership just when they can do a lot of good. I also hate to see
the many who will leave Christ and become cinical over this.
> But statements of confession aren't the most important thing. Real
> change is. And it's theological, cultural, practical type changes, and
> heart changes for people too. I think we're going to be ok here, but
> ... time will tell.
It is *so* good to hear this. May God bless you in carrying out those
John Engler
http://www.barnabasministry.com/Church-DCC_Letter_03-14-03.html
I also have a new article out entitled "Now What?"
http://www.barnabasministry.com/church-nowwhat.html
Jaz
> I don't think we'll have any immediate staff carnage (dismisals) but
> the church culture and many other elements will be changing.
If you need any tips on what to change, you know where to come ask. ;-)
Jaz
> Real change takes time.
>
I was hoping for immediate repentance. Ha ha! I hope you cringe at that
old ICC mentality.
Shredguy66
his hair back and parting it like Marty...what a joke he hardly had any hair to
part!! Poor guy! Of course he was sucked in by Marty and Roger and sooned moved
to Chicago from Columbus. The elders at Columbus were weak men who never would
confront the abuses that the leaders(Priestly) were dabbling in because it was
bringing people to their "Church" building. Who cares if people were getting
abused.....BUT THERE WERE MANY EXODUSES from COLUMBUS and it was left as a
dried up mainline COC. What was funny is that the Columbus Church has a strange
attraction for the ICOC. They even hired this ex ICOC
low level flunky to be their PULPIT MINISTER. Even though he was out of the
MOVEMENT he still tried to sound like and look like KIP. With AMEN prompts..and
everything...lol. I knew KIP..and he was no KIP MCKEAN. Anyway hearing about
PRIESTLY on here and seeing posts from people who lukewarm to the ICOC got me
on a rant. Take care guys..
Shredguy66