What does "saved" mean?
Donna Kupp
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
saved." Romans 10:13
Does the word saved mean "receive eternal life"? That is the
concept that is taught by Modern Christianity. Is it true?
The word saved means "delivered or protect". Thayers lexicon
gives this as the primary meaning: 1) to save, keep safe and sound,
to rescue from danger or destruction.
All men are condemned to death because all have sinned. But
whosoever will call upon the name - the power and authority of
Jesus will be rescued and delivered from the kingdom of Satan so
they may repent and become the children of God.
To be saved is the first step in the process of salvation. Those who
are saved do not have eternal life - but they can - if they will
continue on to true repentance. That is why Paul wrote:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my
presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling." Phi 2:12
Being saved leads to salvation and receiving eternal life. And how
does one inherit eternal life?
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none
good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments." Mat 19:17
There can be no question which commandments Jesus meant
because he referred directly to the ten commandments!
We cannot be saved from the clutches of sin and Satan by any
power of our own - only by the grace of God which comes through
believing in Jesus.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Eph 2:8
Those who receive Jesus are given the power to become the
children of God - that power is the grace of God. They are not born
of God until they come to true repentance.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become
children of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John
1:12
"But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Mat 24:13
To be saved we must endure to the end (Greek "goal reached") The
goal of those who believe in Jesus is to repent of sin and become
the children of God - those who are born of God.
To be saved is the first step in the process of receiving eternal
life.
One can easily see the confusion in peoples minds if they are
taught that to be saved means to receive eternal life.
Harold Kupp
http://groups.google.com/group/Freetruth?hl=en,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/show.php?i=630302&cat=0
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in
the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Joh 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have eternal life.
The Formula of Concord, 1576
We believe, teach, and confess that the distinction of the Law and of
the Gospel, as a most excellently clear light, is to be retained with
special diligence in the Church of God, in order that the Word of God,
agreeably to the admonition of St. Paul, may be rightly divided.
Jim
De 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Donna Kupp
Donna writes:
We choose life and blessing when we obey The Commandments of
God:
" Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have
right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
Revelation 22:14-15
Donna Kupp
vince garcia
Christ, thinks we're saved by keeping the 10 commandments--especially
the sabbath--and denies essential after essential of the Christian
faith. She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
labels it a
doctrine of Satan:
>"The strategy of Satan in the modern church has been to make people
>believe that they have eternal life the moment they accept Jesus as
>their personal Savior."
* * *
Also from her heretical web site:
> "No matter how big the church, no matter how many scriptures
> they use to prove their doctrine, look for the red flag. If they
> have set aside even a part of God's law, they have turned away
> from the truth. By the way, the Sabbath is the fourth
> commandment. To deny it is to deny the God that has declared
> the seventh day to be holy. The Epistle of James teaches that
> there is one law with ten parts. If you refuse to obey any part of
> it, you are refusing the authority of the lawgiver"
>
>If you were the Judge in the case of the CHURCHMEN VERSUS
> THE SABBATH, would you be willing to say that Paul had cancelled
> one of the commandments of God based on the evidence you find in
> the 14th chapter of Romans?
>
> In our opinion, the evidence from Romans and Zechariah
> demands a verdict for Sabbath observance. The church must obey
> the Fourth Commandment - that is the only decision that will
> uphold the Law of God.
* * *
Donna has also written:
> The sabbath commandment makes a distinction between The Creator of the
> heavens and the earth and all the gods of the heathen. If you decide
> to observe the seventh day sabbath you will be testifying to the world
> (including your boss) that you do not believe in evolution; but have
> faith in the Creator of the universe to provide for your needs.
>
> Our faith must be tested and approved before we receive the crown of
> life.
* * *
Donna has also written:
> "...For I the LORD your God am a jealous God ...showing
> steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and KEEP MY
> COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6, (2nd commandment)
>
> According to those verses, all who are not keeping the Ten
> Commandments of God can be certain that God does not love them.
> (Anything contrary is a lie.)"
* * *
Donna also teaches that a true Christian cannot commit sin, and if one
DOES commits sin, proclaims that ONE WILLFUL SIN is blasphemy
of the Holy Spirit, and thus AN UNFORGIVABLE SIN THAT WILL DAMN THE
PERSON.
As her site reads about the Unforgivable Sin:
> "If one who is born of God has truly repented of committing sin
> (chosen to cease from sin) and then deliberately commits sin he has
> despised the Holy Spirit, just as the OT the Israelites despised the > Law of God. It is blasphemy!"
And she recently posted:
> "When we are converted all past sins are forgiven. After a person is
> born-again, only sins of ignorance are forgiven. If a person sins
> with knowledge and intent after that time, they have blasphemed
> the Holy Spirit and there is no more sacrifice for sin. See Hebrews
> 6:1-8; Hebrews 10:26-31."
* * *
She and her husband have also rewritten the Gospel of John in order to
DENY CHRIST'S DEITY in its very opening verse:
"In the beginning was Jesus
>
> and Jesus was with THE RULER,
>
> and Jesus was Ruler.
>
> The same was in the beginning with THE RULER."
>John was teaching that Jesus was our Ruler (our theos) and that
>Jesus was with the Father from the very beginning of creation.
>(Not that Jesus was one third of some mysterious and mind-
>boggling "Trinity" that no one had ever heard of.)
* * *
Conclusion: This woman is the worst sort of cultist, denying everything
from the deity of Christ, to the doctrine of salvation by grace through
faith. She uses the words "Brothers and sisters" in her posts, seeking
to represent herself as a part of the body of Christ. But the truth is,
her gospel comes from the mouth of Satan himself. Point by point, she
leads people away from salvation and into deception and damnation.
As John says, THIS is how we are to treat someone like her who teaches
these heresies:
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the
Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not
into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Glad you are perfect as Jesys says,
Mt 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect,
even as your Father which is in heaven
is perfect.
Col 2:16 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and
our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ga 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the
curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in
all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
C.F.W. Walther, Law & Gospel, 1884
The true knowledge of the distinction between the Law and the Gospel
is not only a glorious light, affording a correct understanding of the
entire Holy Scriptures, but without this knowledge Scripture is and
remains a sealed book....The Word of God is not rightly divided when
the law is not preached in its full sternness, and the gospel not in
its full sweetness, when, on the contrary, gospel elements are mingled
with the law and law elements with the gospel.
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/lawgospel.htm
Jim
Ro 7:7 - What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Donna Kupp
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
I have a Jewish believer friend
who won't post Saturday out of respect
for the Sabbath. Do you understans
the meaning of hypocrite?
Jim
Mt 7:5 - Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own
eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.
Pastor Dave
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> spake thusly:
>Note: the poster, Donna Kupp, is a heretic who denies the deity of
>Christ, thinks we're saved by keeping the 10 commandments--especially
>the sabbath--and denies essential after essential of the Christian
>faith. She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
>labels it a
>doctrine of Satan:
I have an idea! Why don't you just reply to her messages
and snip what she says and then falsely accuse her of
something she didn't say or do!
I mean after all, that's what you do with me and you seem
to think it works.
Bawahahaha!!!
Btw, thanks for showing that you know better, which means
that you know that you're a liar.
Of course, you could always snip most of what I said
and then falsely accuse me of siding with Donna's
personal doctrine, which is the type of thing you
always do.
But hey, what can we expect from a guy who admitted
that he rewords the Bible and redefines words in the
Bible, if they don't line up with his doctrine, right?
<chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected
the Sermon on the Mount... The world has achieved
brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of
nuclear giants and ethical infants." - Gen Omar Bradley
Donna Kupp
get paid for the good that we do.
"And when the sabbath day was come, he [Jesus] began to teach in
the synagogue: ..." Mark 6:2
Jesus taught on the Sabbath Day. Jesus was without sin --or we
would not have a Saviour.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
> It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath --but we must not
> get paid for the good that we do.
>
> "And when the sabbath day was come, he [Jesus] began to teach in
> the synagogue: ..." Mark 6:2
>
> Jesus taught on the Sabbath Day. Jesus was without sin --or we
> would not have a Saviour.
>
> Donna Kupp
>
You are so humble. You justify being on
newsgroups with what Jesus did.
Da 5:25 - And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE,
TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Da 5:26 - This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath
numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
Jim
Pr 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit
before a fall.
Donna Kupp
as he walked." 1John 2:6
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
> "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even
> as he walked." 1John 2:6
Still comparing yourself to Jesus.
You are so humble.
Pr 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit
before a fall.
The fact is after you broke the Sabbath
and I pointed it out to you, the next
time you responded was after dark, so
you realized you broke the Sabbath.
Be a mensch, and admit it.
I told you about a book you shouls read,
but your pride kept you from reading it.
Of the Mortification of Sin in Believers" - John Owen
http://bible.org/series/mortification-sin-believers-outline-exposition-and-summary
Jim
Ex 10:3 - And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto
him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse
to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve
me.
vince garcia
>
> On Nov 21, 12:00 pm, Donna Kupp <dk...@charter.net> wrote:
> > Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
> > obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,
> > or of obedience unto righteousness?
>
> I have a Jewish believer friend
> who won't post Saturday out of respect
> for the Sabbath. Do you understans
> the meaning of hypocrite?
>
> Jim
>
>
No, she doesn't. She has indicated to me that she rejects the various
sabbath commands as written, and she and her husband have invented their
own sort of laws and beliefs on how they must keep the sabbath. If their
way contradicts the written sabbath commands, their way takes precedence
over the OT command because they apply what they think the NT teaches.
But her problems go way beyond the sabbath, starting with having a false
Christ.
Fred A Stover
> What does "saved" mean?
>
> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> saved." Romans 10:13
Amen! That's the salvation message. You should have believed Him.
John 3:14-16
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of man be lifted up: [15] That whosoever believeth in him should not
perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life.
--
His,
More @ www.selah-tx.net
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the
Lord
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Verily I say unto you, Whosoever
shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
(Mark 10:15)
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<)))))))><
SwordoZ
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B0827...@ix.netcom.com...
> Note: the poster, Donna Kupp, is a heretic who denies the deity of
> Christ,
SoZ:
Heretic? Sounds like an "accuser".
thinks we're saved by keeping the 10 commandments--
SoZ:
What's wrong with one living their life around those ten commands or
principles when that's the instructions given by Christ?
especially
> the sabbath
SoZ:
Do you know of any other day ... other than the seventh ... scripturally
ordained as a day of worship by *GOD*?
--and denies essential after essential of the Christian
> faith.
SoZ:
To continually state verbatim that she "denies" ... devoid of any proof on
your part ... merely points to you not having the scriptural tools to
disprove what she states.
She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
> labels it a
> doctrine of Satan:
SoZ:
If you deeply believe she's wrong ... then challenge her scripturally
according to your doctrinal faith ... not merely accusatory.
SoZ:
What I understand her to be stating is that it's sacrilegious to believe
Christ elevated to a deity status and worshipped as GOD.
Where does Christ or his disciples state scripturally ... that he was GOD?
She uses the words "Brothers and sisters" in her posts, seeking
> to represent herself as a part of the body of Christ. But the truth is,
> her gospel comes from the mouth of Satan himself. Point by point, she
> leads people away from salvation and into deception and damnation.
SoZ:
Are you fearful of what she presented?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
"Where does Christ or his disciples state scripturally ... that he
was GOD?"
Ex 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto
you.
Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my
God.
Jim
Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Ike E 11/16/09
"Donna Kupp" <dk...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:8feb06ca-4f2c-4a43...@f18g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> What does "saved" mean?
>
> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> saved." Romans 10:13
Problem here is that there is no English syntax for translating the meaning
of the verb "call" without adding all sorts of complicated verbiage.
Like most of the statements regarding salvation, it is either perfect
indicative or aorist, i.e. that one called upon, and calls upon, and
continues to call upon, the Name of the Lord in an eternally true statement,
NOT tied to a specific moment in time.
> Does the word saved mean "receive eternal life"? That is the
> concept that is taught by Modern Christianity.
Not "Modern Christianity."
HISTORICAL Christianity.
> Is it true?
Yep.
> The word saved means "delivered or protect". Thayers lexicon
> gives this as the primary meaning: 1) to save, keep safe and sound,
> to rescue from danger or destruction.
That's nice.
Too bad it doesn't really mean anything.
> All men are condemned to death because all have sinned.
No, actually: Jesus REVERSED that contention, as He said whoever does not
confess Him before men will be BLOTTED OUT, not WRITTEN INTO the Lamb's book
of life.
So the default is that everyone is ALREADY saved, but they THROW AWAY that
salvation by REJECTING Christ, not accepting Him.
> But
> whosoever will call upon the name - the power and authority of
> Jesus will be rescued and delivered from the kingdom of Satan so
> they may repent and become the children of God.
Nonsense.
You're pinning the word to a moment in time, rather than an ongoing truism.
> To be saved is the first step in the process of salvation.
Nope.
That's TEMPORAL thinking.
The grammar of the word ISN'T temporal.
> Those who
> are saved do not have eternal life - but they can - if they will
> continue on to true repentance.
Legalistic bullshit.
Jesus NEVER tied SALVATION to LAW-KEEPING.
> That is why Paul wrote:
>
> "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my
> presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
> own salvation with fear and trembling." Phi 2:12
Legalism was NOT what Paul was referring to.
> Being saved leads to salvation and receiving eternal life. And how
> does one inherit eternal life?
>
> "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none
> good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
> commandments." Mat 19:17
This was a RHETORICAL question, moron: Jesus was testing the man to see if
he knew who and what Jesus was.
SO was his statement about "keeping the commandments."
That's the problem with you cultists--you NEVER QUOTE the CONTEXT in which a
statement was made. You hack up the Bible willy-nilly, and then expect fools
to believe you.
> There can be no question which commandments Jesus meant
> because he referred directly to the ten commandments!
NOW TRY READING IT IN CONTEXT, fraud...
Mt 19:16-22
And, behold, one came and said unto [Jesus], Good Master, what good
thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
The man's first mistake: Thinking that there were "good things" that he
could do to have eternal life.
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God:
Jesus checks to see if the man knew who He was, for, if the man were calling
Jesus "good," and it weren't true, then the man would be blaspheming, UNLESS
the man KNEW that Jesus IS God.
> but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Which, at the time, would be true, since Jesus had not become the Lamb of
God, temporally speaking.
He saith unto him, Which?
Notice how the man IMMEDIATELY tried to reduce the commandments to ONE--he
was already beginning to reveal his sinful nature
Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father
and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus re-opens the case: ALL the commandments must have been kept to enter
the Kingdom BY COMMANDMENTS, which the man (nor any man) could ever do
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth
up: what lack I yet?
The man just man ANOTHER stupid statement, which Jesus was about to call him
on it.
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come
and follow me.
Jesus proves the man DIDN'T keep the commandments, in the spirit of the
commandments, because he loved possessions more than God, which is the
foolishness of ANYONE claiming they keep the commandments.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he
had great possessions.
Note that Jesus said one thing, and the man heard ANOTHER.
Jesus said "sell that thou hast, and give to the poor." Did Jesus say give
EVERYTHING to the poor? No. But that's not what the man heard--he heard
"IT," as in "GIVE IT TO THE POOR," which Jesus DIDN'T say.
So what did Jesus prove here?
NO MAN (except Himself) CAN KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. There's always SOMETHING
that falls short.
After all this, the Disciples ask how anyone could be saved.
Jesus replied that "with God, all things are possible."
And they ARE--via the GOSPEL that OVERCOMES the law.
> We cannot be saved from the clutches of sin and Satan by any
> power of our own - only by the grace of God which comes through
> believing in Jesus.
Yes, before, during, and at the end of our lives, NOT from some moment in
time all.
That's the lie of legalism.
> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
> yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Eph 2:8
Yep, right up until the day we die.
> Those who receive Jesus are given the power to become the
> children of God - that power is the grace of God. They are not born
> of God until they come to true repentance.
Actually, they're not born AT ALL until THE RESURRECTION.
They're only SEALED until the day of redemption.
> "But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become
> children of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John
> 1:12
Yep. No law-keeping required.
> "But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Mat 24:13
Yep. Jesus' Gospel was back-loaded, not front-loaded, as the modern
evangelicals foolishly teach.
But they're STILL closer to the truth than you are, legalist.
> To be saved we must endure to the end (Greek "goal reached")...
Yep, we have to keep the faith that OVERCOMES OUR SINS.
> The
> goal of those who believe in Jesus is to repent of sin and become
> the children of God - those who are born of God.
Jesus NEVER said salvation was tied to LAWKEEPING, fraud.
> To be saved is the first step in the process of receiving eternal
> life.
No. Salvation doesn't come until the RESURRECTION.
That's the foolishness of the front-loaded Gospel.
Nevertheless, the ONLY steps that come after the acquisition of the Gospel
(the baptism of water) are to continue in the Gospel (the baptism of
Spirit), and to finish in the Gospel (the baptism of blood).
LAWKEEPING NEVER ENTERS THE PICTURE.
> One can easily see the confusion in peoples minds if they are
> taught that to be saved means to receive eternal life.
No, they would see the confusion of YOUR FALSE TEACHINGS.
Jesus tied POSITION in the Kingdom to lawkeeping, yes, but NOT SALVATION...
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.
NOTHING ABOUT "LAWKEEPING" TO GET INTO HEAVEN HERE.
JUST POSITION WITHIN THE KINGDOM.
And thus your false gospel comes undone.
Ike
vince garcia
>
> "vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:4B0827...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Note: the poster, Donna Kupp, is a heretic who denies the deity of
> > Christ,
>
> SoZ:
> Heretic? Sounds like an "accuser".
Sopunds like you (as always) don't know what you're talking about
>
> thinks we're saved by keeping the 10 commandments--
>
> SoZ:
> What's wrong with one living their life around those ten commands or
> principles when that's the instructions given by Christ?
You obviously do not understand the christian faith and path of
salvation--but then you NEVER know what you're talking about, so what's
new?
>
> especially
> > the sabbath
>
> SoZ:
> Do you know of any other day ... other than the seventh ... scripturally
> ordained as a day of worship by *GOD*?
I could care less what the old testament law 'ordains by God'
It also 'ordains' physical circumcision as a requirement for gentiles
wishing to worship God with the jews who keep the 7th day you whine
about...stoning of adulterers...death for men who have sex with a
menstruous wife...death for picking up sticks on the sabbath...death for
starting a fire on the sabbath, and all sorts of other unpleasant things
I don't see you choosing to follow or advocate yourself, you hypocrite.
>
> --and denies essential after essential of the Christian
> > faith.
>
> SoZ:
> To continually state verbatim that she "denies" ... devoid of any proof on
> your part ... merely points to you not having the scriptural tools to
> disprove what she states.
QUOTING HER OWN WORDS AND THEOLOGY is proof enough of what she believes
and defends.
But then you strike me as so addled, you don't even know what true
Christian doctrine is to start with.
>
> She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
> > labels it a
> > doctrine of Satan:
>
> SoZ:
> If you deeply believe she's wrong ... then challenge her scripturally
> according to your doctrinal faith ... not merely accusatory.
I have done so numerous times. I now make it a point to let her own
words speak for themselves on the damnable heresies she believes, just
as I will let your incompetant ramblings speak for you
>Where does Christ or his disciples state scripturally ... that he was GOD?
Once again showing your illiteracy.
But unto the SON he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a
sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Donna Kupp
My accuser says:
> She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
> > labels it a
> > doctrine of Satan:
Donna writes:
Well, I am in good company. James, the brother of Jesus, who
presided at the Jerusalem council where the church leaders reached
an agreement for the basis of Christian fellowship also denied the
doctrine of salvation by faith alone.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, BEING
ALONE.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:
shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my
faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:
***the devils also believe, and tremble.***
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH
WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? ...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
***and not by faith only.***
Friends, even demons believe --but they do not obey God.
I rest my case.
Donna Kupp
vince garcia
>
> Dear Reader,
>
> My accuser says:
>
> > She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
> > > labels it a
> > > doctrine of Satan:
>
> Donna writes:
>
> Well, I am in good company. James, the brother of Jesus, who
> presided at the Jerusalem council where the church leaders reached
> an agreement for the basis of Christian fellowship also denied the
> doctrine of salvation by faith alone.
>
> James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, BEING
> ALONE.
>
> James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:
> shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my
> faith by my works.
>
> James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:
> ***the devils also believe, and tremble.***
>
> James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH
> WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? ...
>
> James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
> ***and not by faith only.***
>
> Friends, even demons believe --but they do not obey God.
> I rest my case.
>
>
Well, let's reopen the case to define your actual salvation theology a
bit more in depth, so people can know the details of what you actually
believe and defend.
Appealing to James, you have admitted denying that salvation comes
through faith alone. Instead, you teach that it comes after a process of
obeying the 10 commandments well enough to obtain salvation through your
own repentance and obedience.
Fine.
That damns you right there for your incompetant misunderstanding of
James, John, AND Paul.
To illustrate your damnable heresy, let's see how you, in your own
words, actually define the 'process' of salvation:
>To be saved is the first step in the process of salvation. Those who
>are saved do not have eternal life -
So you teach a "saved" person DOES NOT have eternal life. He is only
starting a "process" to obtain it, and that process, as we will see, is
to keep the 10 commandments without ever willingly breaking any of them.
>but they can - if they will
>continue on to true repentance. That is why Paul wrote:
>"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my
>presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
>own salvation with fear and trembling." Phi 2:12
>Being saved leads to salvation and receiving eternal life. And how
>does one inherit eternal life?
>"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none
>good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
>commandments." Mat 19:17
>
>There can be no question which commandments Jesus meant
>because he referred directly to the ten commandments!
So you claim that by 'working out their own salvation' (by keeping the
10 commandments well enough) a person can complete the process to gain
eternal life and then at some future point obtain it. Until then, they
are apparently in a state of non-eternal life, or damnation. (That must
be the case, since you deny they have eternal life at that point.)
But what happens if, during this process of obtaining eternal life by
keeping the 10 commandments, someone commits a willful sin?
> "If one who is born of God has truly repented of committing sin
> (chosen to cease from sin) and then deliberately commits sin he has
> despised the Holy Spirit, just as the OT the Israelites despised the > Law of God. It is blasphemy!"
> "When we are converted all past sins are forgiven. After a person is
> born-again, only sins of ignorance are forgiven. If a person sins
> with knowledge and intent after that time, they have blasphemed
> the Holy Spirit and there is no more sacrifice for sin. See Hebrews
> 6:1-8; Hebrews 10:26-31."
So not only must someone keep the 10 commandments well enough to gain
eternal life, they must keep them PERFECTLY. And if they willingly break
ANY of those commandments, you teach they have committed an
unforgiveable sin, and are damned:
>If a person sins
> with knowledge and intent after that time, they have blasphemed
> the Holy Spirit and there is no more sacrifice for sin.
Now let's leave YOUR doctrine and recall the words of the Savior for a
moment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her
hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
So according to Christ, you can't even willingly think a lustful thought
without that being a violation of the 10 commandments.
If your doctrine is right, then a "saved" person who has a willing
lustful thought is commiting an unforgiveable sin. The same would
logically hold true for willingly thinking thoughts that would be less
than loving God with ALL one's heart, soul, strength, and mind; and
loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.
THIS is the false gospel you teach and defend.
the case against you is indeed closed.
SwordoZ
> SwordoZ wrote:
>>
>> "vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:4B0827...@ix.netcom.com...
>> > Note: the poster, Donna Kupp, is a heretic who denies the deity of
>> > Christ,
>> SoZ:
>> Heretic? Sounds like an "accuser".
> Sopunds like you (as always) don't know what you're talking about
SoZ:
I assume then you've read other presented responses?
If I don't know what I'm talking about why no challenges from you in the
past. No gonads?
Your welcome if you have the "testosterone" to show otherwise.
>> thinks we're saved by keeping the 10 commandments--
>> SoZ:
>> What's wrong with one living their life around those ten commands or
>> principles when that's the instructions given by Christ?
SoZ:
> You obviously do not understand the christian faith and path of
> salvation
SoZ:
What besides "erroneous conclusions" is there to understand?
--but then you NEVER know what you're talking about, so what's
> new?
SoZ:
"NEVER"? Apparently you've had the opportunity to correct... why haven't
you?
>> especially
>> > the sabbath
>> SoZ:
>> Do you know of any other day ... other than the seventh ... scripturally
>> ordained as a day of worship by *GOD*?
> I could care less what the old testament law 'ordains by God'
SoZ:
You evade the question with a addled response.
What you "care less about" doesn't mean a hill of beans ... it's what GOD
and his Christ care about. Your response is "heresy" in nature.
You are addled with the reality of the NT as it relates to the OT ... the
basis of Christ's teachings.
> It also 'ordains' physical circumcision as a requirement for gentiles
> wishing to worship God with the jews who keep the 7th day you whine
> about
SoZ:
Not whining but it ordains *no* such requirement according to the NT. If you
have proof to the contrary ... please present ... otherwise you admit
biblical ignorance.
>...stoning of adulterers...
SoZ:
And you agree and condone "adultry"?
death for men who have sex with a
> menstruous wife
SoZ:
Apparently this act of "uncleanliness" turns you on?
...death for picking up sticks on the sabbath...death for
> starting a fire on the sabbath, and all sorts of other unpleasant things
SoZ:
Who "picked" up sticks the previous six days?
Who "started" the fire the previous six days?
> I don't see you choosing to follow or advocate yourself, you hypocrite.
SoZ:
Redundancy.
Why not just be honest with yourself and tell me you "hate" as opposed to
hypocrite ... "hatred" is your modus operandi against those who disagree.
It's quite apparent "the christian faith and path of salvation" which you
espouse condones hatred when calling into question it's "faith".
>> --and denies essential after essential of the Christian
>> > faith.
>>
>> SoZ:
>> To continually state verbatim that she "denies" ... devoid of any proof
>> on
>> your part ... merely points to you not having the scriptural tools to
>> disprove what she states.
> QUOTING HER OWN WORDS AND THEOLOGY is proof enough of what she believes
> and defends.
SoZ:
What was presented concerning the ten commands and Sabbath you had no
scriptural response to except to humanistic lash out at the messenger.
> But then you strike me as so addled, you don't even know what true
> Christian doctrine is to start with.
SoZ:
Fallacy creates confusion. You disguise "hatred" through religiosity.
>> She flat out denies the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and
>> > labels it a
>> > doctrine of Satan:
>>
>> SoZ:
>> If you deeply believe she's wrong ... then challenge her scripturally
>> according to your doctrinal faith ... not merely accusatory.
> I have done so numerous times.
SoZ:
Apparently your "numerous times" just hasn't cut it.
I now make it a point to let her own
> words speak for themselves on the damnable heresies she believes,
SoZ:
That's fair. But your reasoning concerning the ten commands and the Sabbath
are *heresy* ... NOT that which was presented.
just
> as I will let your incompetant ramblings speak for you
SoZ:
I assure you the "living" GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will show the
incompetence which lies within your reasoning.
>>Where does Christ or his disciples state scripturally ... that he was
>>GOD?
> Once again showing your illiteracy.
> But unto the SON he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a
> sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
SoZ:
My illiteracy?
"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore *God, thy God",
hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows".
Please explain your position in context with verse 9 (Heb 1:18-9) which you
seemingly omit.
I await your reply.
SoZ
SwordoZ
<jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:683645c2-c30e-496a...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 21, 11:19 pm, "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote:
"Where does Christ or his disciples state scripturally ... that he
was GOD?"
Ex 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto
you.
SoZ:
The question concerned "Christ or his disciples" ... stick to the question
posed.
Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
SoZ:
No argument.
The same analogy is used by Christ to show the jews that I AM sent him as
well as his messenger. It doesn't take scriptural "rocket science" to figure
that out.
Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my
God.
SoZ:
Your doctrinal assumption that Thomas was stating that Jesus was I AM ... as
you seemingly portended in Ex 3:14 ... shows through common sense that you
are out of sync with the conversation as recorded in the preceding verses.
Jim
Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
SoZ:
True.
The entity of fulness which "dwelled" within him ... equates to him being I
AM (?) ... when he was entrapped as a human being as everyone else ...
having to eat, sleep, crap as well as put his pants on one leg at a time?
Your faith makes no sense whatsoever.
SoZ
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the
right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the
Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his
mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational
soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His
godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who,
although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one,
not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the
manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but
by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so
God and man is one Christ;
http://www.kencollins.com/why-09.htm
Randy ®
vince garcia <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Correct! That's exactly what Galatians teaches about those who
try to achieve righteousness through the Law. They are "shut up"
under sin, because they fail to keep the Law. If righteousness
comes trough the Law, then Christ died in vein, etc.
And as to eternal life, 1 John 5:13 says those who believe on the
name of Jesus Christ, "have" (present tense), eternal life. Not,
"will have" if you don't screw anything up, but already "have".
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
SwordoZ
<jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5115fb77-e7a4-4adc...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
SoZ:
It's as clear as the nose on your face you are evasively evading having to
answer the replys given ... please answer the reply as presented?
Which book and chapter of the Word can the Athanasian Creed be found?
SwordoZ
SoZ:
Do you have the godly character of love within you to define what in your
opinion is her "false Christ" and allow her to defend herself?
pyotr filipivich
22 Nov 2009 14:26:20 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
While we are at it, what chapter and verse lists the correct books
in the canon?
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
SwordoZ
"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:e3pjg5pb04egike4n...@4ax.com...
SoZ:
Can "we" answer the question ... "Which book and chapter of the Word can the
Athanasian Creed be found" as presented?
> pyotr filipivich
> Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
> 1) There is a God.
> 2) It's not you.
SoZ:
There is a God and it's not me ... I agree.
SwordoZ
"Randy �" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:I6KdnfqVpc13EZTW...@giganews.com...
SoZ:
What is "randy's" righteousness predicated upon?
. They are "shut up"
> under sin, because they fail to keep the Law.
SoZ:
No argument ... it's the law of "ordinances" which Paul refers to.
If righteousness
> comes trough the Law, then Christ died in vein, etc.
SoZ:
Agree.
OT righteousness was through physical "ordinances" of law ... NT
righteousness is through spiritual "obedience" of Law ... a Royal Law.
> And as to eternal life, 1 John 5:13 says those who believe on the name of
> Jesus Christ, "have" (present tense), eternal life.
SoZ:
Is that all there is to have eternal life ... based solely on a "believe on
the name of Jesus Christ" ... and you have *no* part to play in the process
other than just an "I believe" mentality?? Is this what your belief is
based upon?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Robert D. Brinsmead
There are two elements blended together in God's redemptive act in
Christ. These elements are righteousness and blood. Paul not only
ascribes salvation to the blood of Christ but also to the
righteousness of Christ. In Romans 3:22 he tells us that righteousness
is "unto all and upon all them that believe. " " . . . David also
describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth
righteousness without works . . ." (Rom. 4:6). In Romans 5:18-19 Paul
says that this is "the righteousness of One" or "the obedience of
One." The apostle Peter calls it "the righteousness of . . . Jesus
Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).
The gospel is about Jesus Christ (Rom 1:3) — His righteousness and
blood. If Christ is our Sun, then half of this Sun's luster is dimmed
when we fail to rivet our attention on the grand theme of the
righteousness of Jesus.
The Covenant and Christ's Righteousness
Like many of the great words in the Bible, righteousness is a
covenantal word. God and man are related by a covenantal union. When
one acts as a true covenant partner, he is said to be righteous.
God is said to be righteous because all His acts are true to His
covenant oath. Whether He punishes or forgives, He is always true to
His covenant. As a covenant partner, He is absolutely dependable.
As a covenant partner, man is required to image God. Righteousness is
the most fundamental covenant demand. The Ten Commandments are the
stipulations which rest upon the human partner (Ex. 34:27-28; Deut.
4:13). When man is true to his covenant obligations, he is said to be
righteous. "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all
these commandments before the Lord our God, as He hath commanded
us" (Deut. 6:25).
From the human standpoint righteousness is obedience to the law of God
(the covenant stipulations), just as sin is transgression of the law
(1 John 3:4). Says Calvin:
The law of God contains perfect righteousness . . . We therefore
willingly confess that perfect obedience to the law is righteousness,
and that the keeping of each commandment is a part of righteousness;
provided that in the remaining parts the whole sum of righteousness is
contained. —John Calvin, Institutes, Bk. 3, chap. 17, sec. 7.
. . . righteousness consists in the observance of the law. —Ibid., Bk.
2, chap. 17, sec. 5.
In the New Testament, righteousness or perfect obedience to the law
remains the valid demand of God. When the young ruler asked Jesus,
"What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Jesus
replied, "Keep the commandments" — and He quoted the very words
(stipulations) of the covenant (Matt. 19:16-19).
Paul does not launch into his message of God's grace in his epistle to
the Romans by declaring that God has relented on His demand for
righteousness. Indeed, the apostle arraigns both Jew and Gentile
before the judgment bar of God and shows that God is absolutely
uncompromising in His demand for a righteous life:
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against
them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that
judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt
escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of His
goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the
goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and
impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of
wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render
to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient
continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the
truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation
and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first,
and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man
that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for
there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned
without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned
in the law shall be judged by the law; (for not the hearers of the law
are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For
when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto
themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean
while accusing or else excusing one another;) in the day when God
shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel
(Rom. 2:2-16).
These words of Paul remind us of what is said in the fifteenth Psalm:
Lord, who shall abide in Thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in Thy holy
hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and
speaketh the truth in his heart. He that backbiteth not with his
tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach
against his neighbour. In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but
he honoureth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own
hurt, and changeth not. He that putteth not out his money to usury,
nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things
shall never be moved.
We may summarize the point by saying that God requires of man a holy
life. The justice of God's judgment seat requires exact and perfect
obedience to the divine law. Man cannot be saved unless that law be
fulfilled — every jot and tittle of it.
Says Calvin, "The Lord promises nothing except to perfect keepers of
His law," and then, to underline the human predicament, he adds, "and
no one of that kind is to be found." —Calvin, op. cit., Bk. 3, chap.
17, sec. 1. This is where God stepped in by providing for us a Surety
(Heb. 7:22) in Jesus Christ. His righteousness consists in His perfect
obedience to His Father's law in our room and on our behalf. Not only
by His blood (which atones for our offenses) but by His righteousness
He reconciles us to God and presents us in the sight of divine justice
as if we had kept the law.
The Old Testament and Christ's Righteousness
Through Isaiah, God speaks to His Messiah, saying:
I the Lord have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine
hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people,
for a light of the Gentiles . . . " (Isa. 42:6; see also Isa. 49:8).
What does this scripture mean when it says that Christ is given "for a
covenant of the people?" God had entered into covenant with His
people, but they failed Him. They broke the stipulations. Although God
kept renewing His covenant, the partnership always broke down because
"it was weak through the flesh." God looked for a faithful covenant
partner and found Him in Jesus Christ. God accepts Him on behalf of
His people. Christ's righteousness is accepted in the place of their
failure. In this faithful Servant the people can be treated as those
who have fulfilled all their covenant stipulations.
The Old Testament bears pointed testimony to the righteousness of
Christ. In Isaiah 40 to 66 He is presented to us as a Servant of
Yahweh. He is so closely identified with His people that He is Israel
personified. He suffers for Israel's sins as if they were His own
(Isa. 53), and Israel is rewarded for His righteous life as if it were
her own (Isa. 49:8; 45:24-25).
Says the prophet, ". . . He had done no violence, neither was any
deceit in His mouth" (Isa. 53:9; cf. Rom. 3:10-18). God calls Him "My
righteous Servant" (Isa. 53:11).
Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; Mine Elect, in whom My soul
delighteth; I have put My Spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth
judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His
voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall He not break,
and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth
judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He
have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His law
(Isa. 42:1-4).
This righteous Servant is pleasing to God in all things. He loves
righteousness and hates iniquity. Therefore He receives God's Spirit
without measure (Heb. 1:9). In Him is blended the meekness of perfect
lowliness and humility and the strength of indomitable courage and
fortitude.
His righteousness is further described in the words of the prophet:
The Lord God hath given Me the tongue of the learned, that I should
know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: He wakeneth
morning by morning, He wakeneth Mine ear to hear as the learned.
The Lord God hath opened Mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither
turned away back. I gave My back to the smiters, and My cheeks to them
that plucked off the hair: I hid not My face from shame and spitting.
For the Lord God will help Me; therefore shall I not be confounded:
therefore have I set My face like a flint; and I know that I shall not
be ashamed (Isa. 50:4-7).
Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and
extolled, and be very high (Isa. 52:13).
In Isaiah 11 Christ is depicted as the righteous Branch "out of the
stem of Jesse."
. . . and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the spirit of
wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit
of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; and shall make Him of quick
understanding in the fear of the Lord: and He shall not judge after
the sight of His eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of His ears:
but with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with
equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite the earth with
the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay
the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and
faithfulness the girdle of His reins (Isa. 11:2-5).
Here are "the seven spirits of God" — the fullness and perfection of
the Godhead which were manifested in Jesus Christ (see Col. 2:9).
Jeremiah also prophesies of Christ as "a righteous Branch." In context
the Lord complains about the shepherds of Israel who scatter and
destroy the flock. But the Lord says that He will raise up a faithful
Shepherd and by Him save His people:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a
righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall
execute judgment and justice in the earth. In His days Judah shall be
saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His name whereby He
shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jer. 23: 5-6).
A parallel passage in Jeremiah 33:16 says:
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely:
and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our
righteousness.
Israel is saved because she takes His name, "The Lord our
righteousness." It is because of God's covenant faithfulness in giving
Christ to be Israel's righteousness that Isaiah declares:
Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength:
even to Him shall men come; and all that are incensed against Him
shall be ashamed. In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be
justified, and shall glory (Isa. 45:24-25).
To summarize: the servant life of Christ constitutes His
righteousness. Here was a life without guile, without violence,
without rebelliousness; but it was a life full of God's Spirit, a life
of humility, patient trust in God, zeal for God's glory, perfect
submission to God's will, and unflinching courage to finish the work
which God gave Him to do.
The New Testament and Christ's Righteousness
The apostles present Jesus as the fulfillment of the Isaianic servant
who goes about "doing good." Jesus comes to be baptized in order "to
fulfil all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15). At His baptism a voice from
heaven declares, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well
pleased" (Matt. 3:17; this obviously refers us back to Isa. 42:1).
As Israel was called out of Egypt and tested in the wilderness, so
Christ also is called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15) and tested in the
wilderness (Matt. 4:1-11). Whereas Israel murmured against God and
broke her covenant vow, Christ passes over the same ground as God's
new Israel. He is the righteous Servant who keeps covenant with God.
When Christ dies on the cross, Luke records that the centurion cries,
"Certainly this was a righteous Man" (Luke 23:47). Even the dying
thief is constrained to declare," . . . this man hath done nothing
amiss" (Luke 23:4i). Before His death the demons were often forced to
confess, "I know Thee who Thou art; the Holy One of God" (Luke 4:34).
John presents Jesus as the One whose meat it is to do the Father's
will. Christ declares, "I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the
Father which hath sent Me" (John 5:30). Even in the face of going into
that place of outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of
teeth (tasting death for every man), He still submits: ". . . not My
will, but Thine be done" (Luke 22:42). As God's faithful Servant, He
continues until He can say, "I have glorified Thee on the earth: I
have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do" (John 17:4).
The writer to the Hebrews says:
For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we
are, yet without sin . . . Who in the days of His flesh, when He had
offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto
Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He
feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things
which He suffered; and being made perfect, He became the Author of
eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him . . . (Heb. 4:15;
5:7-9).
One of the most glorious New Testament testimonies to the
righteousness of Christ is found in Philippians 2:5-9:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in
the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made
Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and
was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man,
he humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of
the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a
name which is above every name. . . .
The expression "obedient unto death" literally reads "obedient until
death." The whole course of Christ's condescension and humble
obedience is here portrayed. It takes in the total span of Christ's
life from the manger to the cross. He went lower and lower in the path
of humiliation until there was no lower place for Him to go.
The life of this obedient, suffering Servant is what Paul calls "the
righteousness of One" and "the obedience of One" (Rom. 5:18-19).
Because Romans 5:18 is sometimes translated "one act of
righteousness," some contend that Paul is referring only to Christ's
act of dying on the cross. But we should remember that God's
redemptive act in Christ was more than a few hours in duration. It
took thirty-three years. Cranfield is no doubt right when he compares
this passage with Philippians 2:8 and says, "The term covers His whole
life, not just His passion and death." —The International Critical
Commentary, Romans (Edinburgh: T & T Clark), p.289. Obedience is a
living thing, a quality of life. Christ's life of obedience to the
perfect will of God is "the righteousness of Christ." As the second or
last Adam and as the new Israel or King of Israel, His righteousness
consisted in fulfilling the stipulations of the covenant in the most
trying circumstances.
The Saving Properties of Christ's Righteousness
". . . a Man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert
from the tempest . . . " (Isa. 32:2). This is because in Jesus Christ
the sinner may find what the law of God demands — a life of perfect
righteousness. But it is proper to inquire, "Why does the
righteousness of Jesus Christ have saving properties?" There are two
reasons:
1. It was a vicarious righteousness. Christ's life of obedience was
not lived for Himself. As Lawgiver, He owed no obedience to the law.
Obedience is the obligation of the creature, not the Creator. But
Christ voluntarily assumed our obligation so that in our stead He
could do for us that which we could not do for ourselves.
. . . but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His
Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were
under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons (Gal.
4:4-5).
As Bunyan so beautifully put it, for thirty-three years Christ wove a
garment of perfect righteousness to be given away. He needed no such
righteousness for Himself, for from eternity He was the righteous One.
2. Christ's righteousness was not only vicarious (lived for us), but
it was of infinite value. No mere creature sinlessness could suffice
to save a multitude of sinners. If there are righteous men like Noah,
Job and Daniel in the land, their righteousness will not suffice to
save anyone else (see Ezek. 14:20).
As we have seen, the righteousness of Christ was lived out in the
flesh-and-blood reality of His earthly life. But He was the God-man.
The Person who rendered this obedience for us was a divine and
infinite Person. His Person gave value to His work. He was filled with
"all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). In Philippians
2:5-8 the apostle clearly shows us that His was an infinite humility.
His obedience was so glorious that it merited all honor and eternal
blessedness (see Phil. 2:9-10; Ps. 24).
When God gave us Jesus to be our righteousness, He gave us an infinite
treasure. The life which we have in God's Son is much greater than the
sinless life which was forfeited by Adam's transgression. The
righteousness of Jesus has infinite value with God.
In order that Christ could bequeath this life of infinite
righteousness to us (a righteousness that would merit us all
blessedness and eternal glory), He had to lay it down. Perhaps God's
act of clothing the nakedness of Adam and Eve was an illustration of
this. Before these sinners could be covered, a beast had to yield its
life so that they could wear its skin. Death made the skins available,
but it was the life of the animal which produced the coat.
Christ's life was so great that it was able to swallow up death and
triumph over it. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to
God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be
saved by His life" (Rom. 5:10). Our righteousness is the life of
Christ, and this righteousness is where we need it most-at the right
hand of God.
The Communication of Christ's Righteousness
It was God's grace which provided this righteousness for us. Hence it
is called "the righteousness of God" (Rom. 1:17; 3:21; 10:3; Phil.
3:9). Christ lived it. So it is called "the righteousness of . . .
Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1). The gospel declares its saving
properties. So it is what we might appropriately call "gospel
righteousness." In the preaching of the gospel the Holy Spirit is
present to create faith in this righteousness. Hence it is called "the
righteousness of faith" (Rom. 1: 17; 3:22; 4:11; 9:30; Phil. 3:9).
The righteousness of faith is not a quality seen by us or felt by us.
It is not to be confused with the Spirit's work of regeneration and
sanctification in our hearts. The righteousness which is of faith is
nothing but the righteous deeds of incarnate God. It is called "the
righteousness of faith" because faith embraces it, saying, "Mine are
Christ's living, doing, and speaking, His suffering and dying; mine as
much as if I had lived, done, spoken, and suffered, and died as He
did. . . . Therefore, everything that Christ has is ours, graciously
bestowed on us unworthy men out of God's sheer mercy, although we have
rather deserved wrath and condemnation, and hell also. . . . This is
an infinite righteousness and one that swallows up all sins in a
moment, for it is impossible that sin should exist in Christ. On the
contrary, he who trusts in Christ exists in Christ; he is one with
Christ, having the same righteousness as He." — Martin Luther,
Luther's Works, Vol.31, pp.349-358.
This righteousness of Christ which justifies and saves the believing
sinner unto life eternal always remains with and in the Person of
Christ.
. . . the righteousness is still "in Him"; not "in us," even then when
we are made partakers of the benefit of it, even as the wing and
feathers still abide in the hen when the chickens are covered, kept,
and warmed thereby. —John Bunyan, Justification by an Imputed
Righteousness (Swengel, Penn.: Reiner Publications).
Again Bunyan says:
The righteousness by which we stand just before God from the curse was
performed by the person of Christ. . . . This righteousness is
inherent only in Him. —Ibid.
Indeed this is one of the greatest mysteries in the world—namely, that
a righteousness that resides with a person in heaven should justify
me, a sinner, on earth. —Ibid.
Once we grasp that the saving righteousness of Jesus consists in the
works and deeds of Jesus which were performed for us 2,000 years ago,
it becomes plain why Paul teaches that the righteousness which is of
faith is imputed (see Rom. 4). Says Buchanan:
This righteousness, — being the merit of a work, and not a mere
quality of character, — may become ours by being imputed to us, but
cannot be communicated by being infused; and must ever continue to
belong primarily and, in one important respect, exclusively to Him by
Whom alone that work was accomplished . . . The merit of one may be
reckoned, or put down to the account of another; but how can the merit
of any work be infused, as a personal property, as holiness may
unquestionably be? —James Buchanan, The Doctrine of Justification, pp.
334-335.
There is, through the work of the Holy Spirit, an impartation of
"essential righteousness" — that is, the attributes of God's
character. The believer thereby becomes progressively more and more
like Christ in character. Yet this inwrought holiness must not be
confused with "the righteousness of faith." Paul can exhort believers
to perfect holiness in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1), but nowhere does
he exhort them to perfect the righteousness which is theirs by faith.
This righteousness is already infinitely perfect. It is a garment
already woven and ready to be worn by all who will submit to it.
The Benefits of Christ's Righteousness
Since Christ lived for His people a life of positive righteousness as
well as died to atone for their sins, this means that God's
justification of the believer includes more than pardon for past
offenses. While the blood of Christ washes away the stain of all
guilt, the righteousness of Christ clothes the believer with the
righteousness which the law demands. Justification is not clearing
away the past so that the believer can go on and provide his own life
for acceptance with God. The holy life of the believer never becomes
the central preoccupation where Christ's righteousness is given its
proper place. The believer sees that just as his old life has been
buried with Christ, so his real life is now in Christ at God's right
hand (Col. 3:1 4). This is the abundant life (John 10:10), the
infinite treasure of the Christian. Where his treasure is, there is
his heart also.
The holy life which the believer lives on earth is but the first
fruits and the down payment of his inheritance (Rom. 8:23; Eph.
1:13-14). This is not that abundant life of which the Christian can
lawfully boast. In his earthly life, even in its best state, he will
never find fulfillment and satisfaction but will rather confess with
Paul, "O wretched man that I am!" (Rom. 7:24). The Christian's real
life, therefore, is outside of himself, and his consolation is always
what Another is on his behalf in the presence of God.
Yet this righteousness which is by faith alone determines the nature
of the holy life of the believer in the here and now. We have seen
that Christ's righteousness consists in His perfect obedience to the
commandments of God (covenant stipulations) on behalf of those who
believe on Him. The Son of God was not sent to put the law aside. He
did not die so that its holy requirement could be cast aside as
nothing. The righteousness of Christ was the highest honor that could
be paid to the divine law. In the life of Jesus Christ the law
received much more honor than if Adam and all his posterity had kept
it. The law (the covenant stipulations) had to be fulfilled, every jot
and tittle of it; otherwise there would be no hope of justification
for any sinner.
When the believing sinner sees that Christ put His own life on the
line to honor and uphold God's law, he will not think that it is a
light matter to sin and trample on God's holy commandments. While the
law points him to Christ as His only righteousness to meet its claims,
Christ's righteousness points him back to the law as the expression of
Christian duty. In the light of the gospel, God's commandments are not
grievous (1 John 5:3).
The good news that Christ kept the law for us is not an encouragement
to antinomianism. Rightly understood, it is the end of antinomianism.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be
fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
(Rom. 8:3-4).
Donna Kupp
The apostle John was taught and commissioned by Jesus Christ to preach
the gospel to all nations. He has authority.! This is what he said:
" Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not
seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1
John 3:6-7
The Psalmist said this about keeping God's law:
" My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE
RIGHTEOUSNESS." Psalms 119:172
James said:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in
one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:11 For he that said, Do not
commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no
adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[He that said Do not kill said also, Remember the Sabbath day to keep
it holy.]
Fred A Stover
???????????/
Giving place to the devil is a Godly character of love? Heaven Forbid!
Ephes. 4:27
Neither give place to the devil.
bob young
Donna Kupp wrote:
What does "saved" mean?
It usually means someone is trying to influence others
into following an imaginary god by giving an imaginary gift
If it is not a gift then it is a threat, such as sin, or damnation
Religions are an insult to modern man's intelligence
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
saved." Romans 10:13
Does the word saved mean "receive eternal life"? That is the
concept that is taught by Modern Christianity. Is it true?
The word saved means "delivered or protect". Thayers lexicon
gives this as the primary meaning: 1) to save, keep safe and sound,
to rescue from danger or destruction.
All men are condemned to death because all have sinned. But
whosoever will call upon the name - the power and authority of
Jesus will be rescued and delivered from the kingdom of Satan so
they may repent and become the children of God.
To be saved is the first step in the process of salvation. Those who
are saved do not have eternal life - but they can - if they will
continue on to true repentance. That is why Paul wrote:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my
presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling." Phi 2:12
Being saved leads to salvation and receiving eternal life. And how
does one inherit eternal life?
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none
good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments." Mat 19:17
There can be no question which commandments Jesus meant
because he referred directly to the ten commandments!
We cannot be saved from the clutches of sin and Satan by any
power of our own - only by the grace of God which comes through
believing in Jesus.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Eph 2:8
Those who receive Jesus are given the power to become the
children of God - that power is the grace of God. They are not born
of God until they come to true repentance.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become
children of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John
1:12
"But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Mat 24:13
To be saved we must endure to the end (Greek "goal reached") The
goal of those who believe in Jesus is to repent of sin and become
the children of God - those who are born of God.
To be saved is the first step in the process of receiving eternal
life.
One can easily see the confusion in peoples minds if they are
taught that to be saved means to receive eternal life.
Harold Kupp
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
The devil is a myth like the gods themselves.
Most religions have devils - humans are fascinated by them.
"God and Satan alike are essentially human figures,
the one a projection of ourselves, the other of our enemies."
[Lord Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)]
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> Donna Kupp wrote:
> > What does "saved" mean?
> >
> > "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> > saved." Romans 10:13
Saved from WHAT exactly ?
Sin
Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster membership. It is seized upon
with zeal because there is a universal distaste for sin - even a thief gets highly agitated if someone
breaks into his home and steals his loot.
Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let alone write. Eons later sin was
hijacked, applied, used, twisted and manipulated by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any
other example of religious dogma.
Until preachers and their hangers on, like Freddie here, defer from manipulating sin as a propagating
tool - they too will never be free from sin themselves.
Think about it
Steve Hayes
>
>
>Fred A Stover wrote:
>
>> Donna Kupp wrote:
>> > What does "saved" mean?
>> >
>> > "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
>> > saved." Romans 10:13
>
>Saved from WHAT exactly ?
The power of evil (or the evil one).
It's a Get out of Jail Free card (the evil one being the jailer).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Fred A Stover
Sorry, your options are limited to believing it now or believing it later.
Fred A Stover
> Fred A Stover wrote:
>
>> Donna Kupp wrote:
>>> What does "saved" mean?
>>>
>>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
>>> saved." Romans 10:13
>
> Saved from WHAT exactly ?
Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
> Sin
>
> Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
> membership. It is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
> distaste for sin - even a thief gets highly agitated if someone
> breaks into his home and steals his loot.
???????????????? Have you ever read the scriptures?
> Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let
> alone write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and
> manipulated by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any
> other example of religious dogma.
???????????????????? More inane babble.
> Until preachers and their hangers on, like Freddie here, defer from
> manipulating sin as a propagating tool - they too will never be free
> from sin themselves.
????????????????? Your fixation with sin suggests you've been listening to
Donna's demon.
> Think about it
Just think without focusing it on babble.
SwordoZ
"Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7mv8unF...@mid.individual.net...
SoZ:
I doubt you have the spiritual capability to comprehend Eph 5:9,10 ... but
let's give it a try
"(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and
truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord."
Coprenda?
SoZ
bob young
Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 25 Nov 2009 02:53:04 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Fred A Stover wrote:
> >
> >> Donna Kupp wrote:
> >> > What does "saved" mean?
> >> >
> >> > "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> >> > saved." Romans 10:13
> >
> >Saved from WHAT exactly ?
>
> The power of evil (or the evil one).
IOW Primitive nonsense
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > Fred A Stover wrote:
> >
> >> Donna Kupp wrote:
> >>> What does "saved" mean?
> >>>
> >>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> >>> saved." Romans 10:13
> >
> > Saved from WHAT exactly ?
>
> Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
True to form - the Christian never has a straight answer to a straight question
>
>
> > Sin
> >
> > Sin has always been a tool of the clergy, used and adopted to bolster
> > membership. It is seized upon with zeal because there is a universal
> > distaste for sin - even a thief gets highly agitated if someone
> > breaks into his home and steals his loot.
>
> ???????????????? Have you ever read the scriptures?
Yes I have many times and it did not take very long for me to realise that
- they are, of course, ancient wishes written by frightened early humans
with an imaginary god put there to give it muscle.
It might have worked for simple minds thousands of years ago but today !?
Only the brainwashed from the cradle remain
>
>
> > Sin was around long before man could speak in simple tongue, let
> > alone write. Eons later sin was hijacked, applied, used, twisted and
> > manipulated by the clergy with more force and enthusiasm than any
> > other example of religious dogma.
>
> ???????????????????? More inane babble.
The truth hurts sometimes
resulting in inane responses such as yours above
>
>
> > Until preachers and their hangers on, like Freddie here, defer from
> > manipulating sin as a propagating tool - they too will never be free
> > from sin themselves.
>
> ????????????????? Your fixation with sin suggests you've been listening to
> Donna's demon.
The fixation with sin, is firmly a prerequisite of most religions,
Christianity being a leading one.
My my my, you really do have a very effective pair of blinders fitted
do you not?
>
>
> > Think about it
>
> Just think without focusing it on babble.
Still hurting I see.. Lack of intelligent responses duly noted
and the reasons why fully understood, with sympathy.
Steve Hayes
>
>
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On 25 Nov 2009 02:53:04 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Fred A Stover wrote:
>> >
>> >> Donna Kupp wrote:
>> >> > What does "saved" mean?
>> >> >
>> >> > "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
>> >> > saved." Romans 10:13
>> >
>> >Saved from WHAT exactly ?
>>
>> The power of evil (or the evil one).
>
>IOW Primitive nonsense
It's a moot point.
You may think we live in the best of all possible worlds, or at least that
it's getting better all the time.
Others may disagree.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
The instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth
wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words,
even when the needy speaketh right.
But the liberal deviseth liberal things;
and by liberal things shall he stand (Isaiah 32:7-8).
Fred A Stover
You seem to be quite confused. What part don't you understand? You don't
know the battle is spiritual? Are you suggesting we should embrace the
devil? You need to elaborate for you're making no sense.
Fred A Stover
> Fred A Stover wrote:
>
>> bob young wrote:
>>> Fred A Stover wrote:
>>>
>>>> Donna Kupp wrote:
>>>>> What does "saved" mean?
>>>>>
>>>>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
>>>>> saved." Romans 10:13
>>>
>>> Saved from WHAT exactly ?
>>
>> Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
>
> True to form - the Christian never has a straight answer to a
> straight question
Now you want to be proselytized? Too late.
We were warned, "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found" (Is 55:6). You
didn't.
The fulness of the gentiles has entered (Rom 11:25). You haven't. Nothing
for you to do but await the desires of your heart.
SwordoZ
SoZ:
About what ... an anti-christ attitude?
> What part don't you understand?
SoZ:
Why a "professed' xian as yourself doesn't know the difference between the
"fruits" of the Spirit and "works" of the flesh. Please explain that to me?
> You don't
> know the battle is spiritual?
SoZ:
That's the point freddy "doesn't" understand and I'm pointing out.
>Are you suggesting we should embrace the
> devil?
SoZ:
No. But freddy is doing a "fantastic" job of showing "works" of the flesh.
>You need to elaborate for you're making no sense.
SoZ:
Plain and simple it's your ant-christ attitude. You need to re-read my reply
.. freddy.
Fred A Stover
Another whining weenie ................
--
His,
More @ www.selah-tx.net
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the
Lord
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever
shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
(Mark 10:15)
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
<)))))))><
>> SwordoZ wrote:
SwordoZ
> SwordoZ wrote:
>> "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:7n7f7uF...@mid.individual.net...
> Another whining weenie ................
SoZ:
I defer my answer to what the Psalmist stated ...
Ps 59:12 - For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them
even be taken in their *pride*: and for *cursing* and *lying* which they
speak.
... and Proverbs states:
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil
way, and the *froward* *mouth*, do I hate.
Freddy ... you are one of the worst excuses for being a xian I've ever
encountered.
SoZ
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > Fred A Stover wrote:
> >
> >> bob young wrote:
> >>> Fred A Stover wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Donna Kupp wrote:
> >>>>> What does "saved" mean?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> >>>>> saved." Romans 10:13
> >>>
> >>> Saved from WHAT exactly ?
> >>
> >> Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
> >
> > True to form - the Christian never has a straight answer to a
> > straight question
>
> Now you want to be proselytized? Too late.
>
> We were warned, "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found" (Is 55:6). You
> didn't.
Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and grasped onto frantically
by some brainwashed members of society in the year 2009 - sad indeed
bob young
Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 25 Nov 2009 22:33:02 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Steve Hayes wrote:
> >
> >> On 25 Nov 2009 02:53:04 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Fred A Stover wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Donna Kupp wrote:
> >> >> > What does "saved" mean?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> >> >> > saved." Romans 10:13
> >> >
> >> >Saved from WHAT exactly ?
> >>
> >> The power of evil (or the evil one).
> >
> >IOW Primitive nonsense
>
> It's a moot point.
>
> You may think we live in the best of all possible worlds, or at least that
> it's getting better all the time.
Better in some ways, medecine and science,
worse in others - nuclear weapons - - - - - - and science !
> Others may disagree.
You can bet on it - they always do
Fred A Stover
> "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:7n7u5qF...@mid.individual.net...
>> SwordoZ wrote:
>>> "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:7n7f7uF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Another whining weenie ................
>
> SoZ:
> I defer my answer to what the Psalmist stated ...
>
> Ps 59:12 - For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips
> let them even be taken in their *pride*: and for *cursing* and
> *lying* which they speak.
>
> ... and Proverbs states:
>
> 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and
> the evil way, and the *froward* *mouth*, do I hate.
>
> Freddy ... you are one of the worst excuses for being a xian I've ever
> encountered.
What has your whining and lying to do with me
Fred A Stover
> Fred A Stover wrote:
>
>> bob young wrote:
>>> Fred A Stover wrote:
>>>
>>>> bob young wrote:
>>>>> Fred A Stover wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Donna Kupp wrote:
>>>>>>> What does "saved" mean?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
>>>>>>> saved." Romans 10:13
>>>>>
>>>>> Saved from WHAT exactly ?
>>>>
>>>> Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
>>>
>>> True to form - the Christian never has a straight answer to a
>>> straight question
>>
>> Now you want to be proselytized? Too late.
>>
>> We were warned, "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found" (Is 55:6).
>> You didn't.
>
> Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and
> grasped onto frantically by some brainwashed members of society in
> the year 2009 - sad indeed
ROTFL yes, the end.
Steve Hayes
>Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and grasped onto frantically
>by some brainwashed members of society in the year 2009 - sad indeed
What's so special about the year 2009?
SwordoZ
> SwordoZ wrote:
>> "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:7n7u5qF...@mid.individual.net...
>>> SwordoZ wrote:
>>>> "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:7n7f7uF...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Another whining weenie ................
>> SoZ:
>> I defer my answer to what the Psalmist stated ...
>> Ps 59:12 - For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips
>> let them even be taken in their *pride*: and for *cursing* and
>> *lying* which they speak.
>> ... and Proverbs states:
>> 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and
>> the evil way, and the *froward* *mouth*, do I hate.
>> Freddy ... you are one of the worst excuses for being a xian I've ever
>> encountered.
> What has your whining and lying to do with me
SoZ:
No - its about your whining and lying. I am just advising you Freddy in a
civil manner that your anti-christ behavior is a stumbling block to Christ's
message of the "regeneration" of mankind.
Donna Kupp
COLOSSIANS 2:16
Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
commandment of God.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
Sabbath days:" (KJV)
The context of that verse will reveal its meaning ...
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?u=1084550
Donna Kupp
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > Fred A Stover wrote:
> >
> >> bob young wrote:
> >>> Fred A Stover wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> bob young wrote:
> >>>>> Fred A Stover wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Donna Kupp wrote:
> >>>>>>> What does "saved" mean?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
> >>>>>>> saved." Romans 10:13
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Saved from WHAT exactly ?
> >>>>
> >>>> Watch and it will become apparent when the need arises.
> >>>
> >>> True to form - the Christian never has a straight answer to a
> >>> straight question
> >>
> >> Now you want to be proselytized? Too late.
> >>
> >> We were warned, "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found" (Is 55:6).
> >> You didn't.
> >
> > Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and
> > grasped onto frantically by some brainwashed members of society in
> > the year 2009 - sad indeed
>
> ROTFL yes, the end.
Your rampant proof of when the book first appeared duly noted.
If you had it of course you would be screaming it !
bob young
Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 27 Nov 2009 02:27:03 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and grasped onto frantically
> >by some brainwashed members of society in the year 2009 - sad indeed
>
> What's so special about the year 2009?
Oh dear !
The year 2009 . . . . . . . . . is now.
Please take note, now concentrate - the year after this one will be 2019
SwordoZ
"Donna Kupp" <dk...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:254b813a-b0b5-4992...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> Donna Kupp writes:
>
> COLOSSIANS 2:16
>
> Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
> who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
> 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
> commandment of God.
SoZ
That's the gentile way. What's the context?
> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
> in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
> Sabbath days:" (KJV)
>
> The context of that verse will reveal its meaning ...
SoZ
What's the context?
Donna Kupp
Donna writes:
When we look at Colossians 2:16 in its context it soon becomes
apparent that Paul was warning about the "Colossian Heresy"
which was another gospel based on asceticism and the worship of
angels in order to gain assistance from cosmic powers. The
essence of this heresy was that Christ alone was not sufficient to
deliver us from our slavery to sin.
As you will see from the following verses, Paul was warning
against three things that were being added to the gospel.
1. Traditions of men.
2. The worship of angels.
3. Submitting to doctrines of men.
COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the
rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
COL 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in
drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon,
or of the Sabbath days:
COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a
voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into
those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his
fleshly mind,
COL 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the
rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world,
are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle
not; Which all are to perish with the using;) AFTER THE
COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN?
KEEPING THE SABBATH DAY HOLY IS NOT A
DOCTRINE OF MEN!
Paul was not doing away with God's commandment; he was
warning against the false teachers who were saying that if
believers did not eat and drink the right food and keep the
festivals, new moons and Sabbaths ACCORDING TO CERTAIN
HUMAN REGULATIONS they would lose their reward.
According to verse :23 below, they were teaching that
without these ascetic regulations one could not overcome
the flesh:
COL 2:23 These [DOCTRINES OF MEN] have indeed
an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion
and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of
no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh. (RSV)
One commentator summed up these verses by saying:
"We conclude then that in verse :16, the warning is not
against the Sabbath, festivals and dietary laws as such, but
rather against those who promote these practices as
indispensable aids to Christian perfection and as needed
protection from the 'elements [evil spiritual forces] of the
world' thus denying the all sufficiency of Christ."
(Samuele Bacchiocchi, From Sabbath To Sunday)
Now really, doesn't that explanation make a lot more sense
than the notion that Christians are no longer required to
obey the fourth commandment? It is a true saying that:
"The commandment is not nullified by the condemnation of
its abuse.".
The question we need to ask is this: "Was Paul condemning
the Sabbath day, or was he CONDEMNING THE
DOCTRINES OF MEN who added ritualistic and ascetic
restrictions to faith in Christ?"
In order to answer that dispute, one must look
at the broad picture. There is not a single verse in the
New Testament which states that Paul taught a new doctrine
that canceled the Sabbath commandment; nor is there any
record of a controversy between the Jews and Gentile
Christians over Sabbath-keeping. If Paul had been teaching
that the Sabbath commandment had been repealed, it would
have split the church wide open and he would have had to
answer the objections continuously in his epistles.
Think about it - if the Jewish believers made such a fuss
about circumcision being optional, imagine what they would
have said about the Sabbath day being revoked.
At some point we must use common sense and reason to
interpret what has been written. For example, does "Let no
man judge you in meat and drink..." mean that Christians
can be drunkards? Of course not, because you know that
God's word forbids drunkenness. Well, it also forbids
Sabbath-breaking!
It is only logical to assume that if God was going to cancel
one of His commandments, he would make that fact very clear.
Surely, if someone said to you: "Let no man judge you in
respect of murder or adultery" you would not assume that
God had changed His mind about those sins without solid
proof. Certainly, you would demand more evidence than
one lonely verse in the book of Colossians.
Donna Kupp
pyotr filipivich
22 Nov 2009 21:05:06 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
>
>"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:e3pjg5pb04egike4n...@4ax.com...
>> Let the Record show that "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> on or about Sun,
>> 22 Nov 2009 14:26:20 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
>> alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
>>>
>>><jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5115fb77-e7a4-4adc...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
>>>> believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the
>>>> right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus
>>>> Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the
>>>> Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his
>>>> mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational
>>>> soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His
>>>> godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who,
>>>> although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one,
>>>> not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the
>>>> manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but
>>>> by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so
>>>> God and man is one Christ;
>>>
>>>SoZ:
>>>It's as clear as the nose on your face you are evasively evading having
>>>to
>>>answer the replys given ... please answer the reply as presented?
>>>
>>>Which book and chapter of the Word can the Athanasian Creed be found?
>
>
>> While we are at it, what chapter and verse lists the correct books
>> in the canon?
>
>SoZ:
>Can "we" answer the question ... "Which book and chapter of the Word can the
>Athanasian Creed be found" as presented?
the Collected Writings of the Nicene Fathers?
My point is, that those who seem to wish to abide only by what is
written in the Scriptures, have this problem that there is no
definitive scriptural list of what constitutes the canon of
scriptures. Not for the New Testament, not for the Old Testament.
Maybe the Samaritans are correct, as they recognize no books as
authoritative save for the five books of Torah. Which makes sense, as
there is a reference in Deuteronomy about not adding to the Word of
the Lord.
tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
> Let the Record show that "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> on or about Sun,
> 22 Nov 2009 21:05:06 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:e3pjg5pb04egike4n...@4ax.com...
> >> Let the Record show that "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> on or about Sun,
> >> 22 Nov 2009 14:26:20 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> >> alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
>
Jude 1:3 - Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the
common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort
you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once
delivered unto the saints.
(d) Text according to Metzger. According to Zahn (Geschichte, ii, pp.
252-3),
in 419 another council held at Carthage gave the concluding words
in the following form: "the Revelation of John, one book.
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow-bishop, Boniface [of
Rome],
and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this
canon,
for these are the things that we have received from our fathers to
be
read in church."
And so in Westcott.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/carthage.html
All the books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we
do receive, and account them canonical.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/thirtyni.htm
Jim
2Ti 4:13 - The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus,
when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books,
but especially the parchments.
Ike E 11/23/9
<jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:b35b8a4c-3730-4436...@9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> (d) Text according to Metzger. According to Zahn (Geschichte, ii, pp.
> 252-3), in 419 another council held at Carthage gave the concluding words
> in the following form: "the Revelation of John, one book.
> Let this be sent to our brother and fellow-bishop, Boniface [of Rome],
> and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this
> canon, for these are the things that we have received from our fathers to
> be read in church."
> And so in Westcott.
> http://www.bible-researcher.com/carthage.html
> All the books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we
> do receive, and account them canonical.
> http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/thirtyni.htm
Great. Now what did the early church fathers who came BEFORE the great
councils started consensus and coalition building say?
The church councils (which occurred starting in 325 AD) ignored the early
church fathers through the first three centuries and disregarded the
criteria they lived by...
1) The book had to have known origin.
2) The book had to have a traceable history of usage.
3) The book had to fully conform to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
********
The Muratorian Canon (c. 170 as it refers to Pius I, Bishop of Rome, 142-157
AD)
Accepted books
"The third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke. The fourth. is that
of John. the acts of all the apostles. As for the Epistles of Paul. To the
Corinthians first, to the Ephesians second, to the Philippians third, to the
Colossians fourth, to the Galatians fifth, to the Thessalonians sixth, to
the Romans seventh. once more to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians.
one to Philemon, one to Titus, and two to Timothy.
Disputed books
"to the Laodiceans, [and] another to the Alexandrians, [both] forged in
Paul's name to [further] the heresy of Marcion. the epistle of Jude and two
of the above-mentioned (or, bearing the name of) John. and [the book of]
Wisdom. We receive only the apocalypses of John and Peter, though some of us
are not willing that the latter be read in church. But Hermas wrote the
Shepherd very recently. And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it
cannot be read publicly to the people in church."
********
Origen (c. 185-253)
One finds in [Origen's writings] citations of all the books of the New
Testament, though he expressed reservations concerning James, 2 Peter, and
2nd and 3rd John.
Origen on Hebrews
Throughout Origen's writings he quotes from the Epistle to the Hebrews more
than 200 times, and in the vast majority of his references he is content to
attribute it to Paul as its author. But near the close of his life (after
245 CE), where Origen is speaking as a scholar, he admits that the tradition
of its authorship is wholly uncertain.
In addition he makes the following statements concerning the Epistle to the
Hebrews, in his Homilies upon it: 'That the character of the diction of the
Epistles entitled 'To the Hebrews' has not the apostle's rudeness in speech,
who acknowledged himself to be rude in speech (2 Cor. 6:6), that is, in
style, but that the Epistle is better Greek in the framing of its diction,
will be admitted by everyone who is able to discern differences of style.
But again, on the other hand, that the thoughts of the Epistle are
admirable, and not inferior to the acknowledged writings of the apostle,
this also everyone who carefully examines the apostolic text will admit'.
Further on he adds, If I gave my opinion, I should say that the thoughts are
those of the apostle, but the style and composition belong to some one who
remembered the apostle's teachings and wrote down at his leisure what had
been said by his teacher. Therefore, if any church holds that this Epistle
is by Paul, let it be commended for this also. For it is not without reason
that the men of old time have handed it down as Paul's. But who wrote the
Epistle in truth, God knows. Yet the account that has reached us [is
twofold] , some saying that Clement, bishop of Rome, wrote the Epistle, and
others, that it was Luke, the one who wrote the Gospel and the Acts.
********
Irenaeus' (2nd century AD - c. 202) Canon [by citation],
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts of the Apostles
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
1 Peter
1 John
2 John
Revelation to John
No Hebrews, 2 Peter, 3rd John, James, or Jude
********
Eusebius' (c 263-339) Canon
"The first church historian, Eusebius, circa AD 303-325, applied the term
"Antilegomena" ["writings spoken against"] to the Epistle of James, the
Epistle of Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, the Acts of Paul, the Shepherd of
Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Didache, the
Apocalypse of John, and the Gospel according to the Hebrews."
Quote from Eusebius:
"Among the disputed writings, [ton antilegomenon] which are nevertheless
recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of
Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called the second
and third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another
person of the same name. Among the rejected writings must be reckoned also
the Acts of Paul, and the so-called Shepherd, and the Apocalypse of Peter,
and in addition to these the extant epistle of Barnabas, and the so-called
Teachings of the Apostles; and besides, as I said, the *Apocalypse of John,
if it seem proper, which some, as I said, reject, but which others class
with the accepted books. And among these some have placed also the Gospel
according to the Hebrews, with which those of the Hebrews that have accepted
Christ are especially delighted. And all these may be reckoned among the
disputed books."
(*Eusebius marginalized the Apocalypse of John in this list, but accepted it
in another.)
********
Cheltenham/Mommsen Canon
The Cheltenham Canon, c. 365-390, is a Latin list that was discovered by the
German classical scholar Theodor Mommsen (published 1886) in a 10th century
manuscript (chiefly patristic) belonging to the library of Thomas Phillips
at Cheltenham, England. The list probably originated in North Africa soon
after the middle of the 4th century.
It has a 24-book Old Testament and 24-book New Testament which provides
syllable and line counts but omits Hebrews, Jude and James, and seems to
question the epistles of John and Peter beyond the first.
*******
Diatessaron and Syriac Church
"By the fifth century the Syrian Bible, called the Peshitta, became
formalized somehow into its present form: Philemon was accepted, along with
James, 1 Peter and 1 John, but the remaining books are still expelled (2
John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation ). After the Council of Ephesus
in 431 A.D., the Eastern Syrian church, in turn divided between the
Nestorian and the Syriac Orthodox Church, broke away, and retained this
canon of only 22-books (the Peshitta) up to the present day."
*******
Conclusion
There are many other canons, especially the ones in the Latin tradition,
which adheres to the canon as found in the Catholic Bible.
But the fact remains that the church fathers by and large rejected Hebrews,
2 Peter, 2nd & 3rd John, James, and they had mixed feelings about
Revelation, although the consensus was that Revelation was authentic.
Insofar as Jude is concerned, it is based in large part on two works now
known to be of heretical Essene origin--"Enoch" and the "Assumption of
Moses."
Ike
Steve Hayes
>
>
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On 27 Nov 2009 02:27:03 -0600, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Written by some primitive at an unknown period of history and grasped onto frantically
>> >by some brainwashed members of society in the year 2009 - sad indeed
>>
>> What's so special about the year 2009?
>
>Oh dear !
>
>The year 2009 . . . . . . . . . is now.
Right, and next year it will be then.
>
>Please take note, now concentrate - the year after this one will be 2019
I will note that and concentrate on it.
According to which calendar?
Fred A Stover
>
> COLOSSIANS 2:16
>
> Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
> who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
> 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
> commandment of God.
>
> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
> Sabbath days:" (KJV)
Yes, some people do turn to scripture for the truth.
Fred A Stover
> On Nov 27, 7:24pm, "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote:
>> "Donna Kupp" <dk...@charter.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:254b813a-b0b5-4992...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Donna Kupp writes:
>>
>>> COLOSSIANS 2:16
>>
>>> Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
>>> who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
>>> 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
>>> commandment of God.
>>
>> SoZ
>> That's the gentile way. What's the context?
>>
>>> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
>>> in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
>>> Sabbath days:" (KJV)
>>
>>> The context of that verse will reveal its meaning ...
>>
>> SoZ
>> What's the context?
>
The days are prophetic of things to come.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the
apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a
position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted
bishops
in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to
our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like
what
these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden
mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect"
apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them
especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches
themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very
perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving
behind
as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to
these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly,
would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away,
the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as
this,
to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to
confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil
self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion,
assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by
indicating
that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very
ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome
by
the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing
out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means
of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity
that
every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-
eminent authority,6 that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the
apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those
[faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the
Church,
committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of
this
Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him
succeeded
Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles,
Clement
was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed
apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have
the
preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their
traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there
were
many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.
In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred
among
the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most
powerful
letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their
faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from
the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of
heaven
and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called
Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses,
set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for
the
devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so,
may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached
by
the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of
the
Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are
now
propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god
beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this
Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus;
then,
sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus,
who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then
after
him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now,
in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the
episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical
tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have
come
down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the
same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the
apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and
conversed
with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia,
appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early
youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very
old
man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,7 departed this
life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the
apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are
true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also
those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,-a man
who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth,
than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was
who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away
from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he
had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely,
which is handed down by the Church.8 "
Irenaeus Book III, Chapter III
Letter by Athanasius Concerning the Councils of Remini
And Seleucia [A.D. 361/362]
[The Fathers of the Ecumenical Council of Nicea], without
Prefixing consulate, moth, and day, wrote concerning Easter .
“The following has been decided.” And it was at that time
Decided that all should comply . But concerning matters of
Faith, they did not write: “It has been decided,” But “Thus the
Catholic Church believes.” And thereupon they confessed how
They believed. This they did in order to show that their judgment
Was not of more recent origin, but was in fact of Apostolic times,
And that what they wrote was no discovery of their own, but is
Simply that which was taught by the Apostles..
The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol I, William A. Jurgens
The Litugical Press, p 338
SwordoZ
> Donna Kupp wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 7:24pm, "SwordoZ" <mar...@enter.net> wrote:
>>> "Donna Kupp" <dk...@charter.net> wrote in message
>>> news:254b813a-b0b5-4992...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Donna Kupp writes:
>>>> COLOSSIANS 2:16
>>>> Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
>>>> who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
>>>> 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
>>>> commandment of God.
>>> SoZ
>>> That's the gentile way. What's the context?
>>>> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
>>>> in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
>>>> Sabbath days:" (KJV)
>>>> The context of that verse will reveal its meaning ...
>>> SoZ
>>> What's the context?
> The days are prophetic of things to come.
SoZ
Huh?
Why would GOD put so much emphasis on the Sabbath from the very beginning
in the garden ... teach a nation of people (Israel) godly respect towards
the Sabbath on a human level ... then change horses in the middle of the
stream an say "oh" forget it for now ... then again say some time down the
road "oh" by the way this Sabbath thing I think we ought to go back to it.
What convoluted gentile reasoning concerning prophesy.
SwordoZ
>> COLOSSIANS 2:16
>> Whenever the question of the Sabbath is discussed, those
>> who do not keep it holy will inevitably appeal to Colossians
>> 2:16 as their authority for disobeying the fourth
>> commandment of God.
>> "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or
>> in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the
>> Sabbath days:" (KJV)
> Yes, some people do turn to scripture for the truth.
SoZ
According to *Godly*standards or gentile standards? There is a difference.
SwordoZ
> Let the Record show that "SwordoZ"
SoZ
Absolutely.
SoZ
No offense intended. But were they observers of what actually occurred as
it occurred?
> My point is, that those who seem to wish to abide only by what is
> written in the Scriptures,
SoZ
But that's where the Truth lies. That's your opinion. But I tend to put more
emphasis moreso on the historicity of those who observed it first hand.
Example - who would you put more credence in concerning the historicity of
the horrors of war ... those who wrote about something they never
experienced 10, 20, 30, 50 years after the fact ... or those who witnessed
and lived it's horrors up close?
have this problem that there is no
> definitive scriptural list of what constitutes the canon of
> scriptures. Not for the New Testament, not for the Old Testament.
SoZ
That's your opinion. It apparently escapes your discernment the chaos which
would have resulted if every tom, dick and harry's perspective were included
in the canon. I believe the individuals who did the compiling understood
that moreso than you and a lot of intellectuals give them credit concerning
such.
> Maybe the Samaritans are correct, as they recognize no books as
> authoritative save for the five books of Torah. Which makes sense, as
> there is a reference in Deuteronomy about not adding to the Word of
> the Lord.
SoZ
I have no argument with that. But what would the net result be if the
"historicity" which followed was not recorded?
SoZ
Donna Kupp
> "Fred A Stover" <fsto...@tx.rr.com> wrote in messagenews:7ncok6F...@mid.individual.net...
Donna Kupp wrote:
The Heavenly Father didn't change the Sabbath Commandment -- Jesus
didn't change it --and none of the apostles changed it (including
Paul). We MUST obey the seventh day sabbath commandment NOW. It is a
Commandment of God --and no man has the authority to change --or
abolish it.
Donna Kupp
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
>didn't change it --and none of the apostles changed it (including
>Paul).
"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath: 17 Which are a shadow of
things to come." Col 2:16-17 (KJV)
__
Veff...
--
Disclaimer:
I am no man's personal enemy in merely secular matters.
But when they approach me on the premises of the Truth as was taught and
practised in the 1st Century,
then they are either my friends or my foes, and I am theirs.
I am their friends for the Truth's sake, or I am their foe for the Truth's
sake.
Indeed, the most dangerous enemies to Christ are those who pretend to be his
friends,
but are not faithful to his doctrine or the doctrine of his ordained
Apostles.
SwordoZ
SoZ
Are you gentile?
SwordoZ
"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com>
wrote in message news:7ndpg2F...@mid.individual.net...
SoZ
Interesting. Who are the dangerous enemies?
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > Fred A Stover wrote:
> >
> >> SwordoZ wrote:
> >>> "vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:4B0898...@ix.netcom.com...
> >>>> jwshe...@satx.rr.com wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Nov 21, 12:00 pm, Donna Kupp <dk...@charter.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves
> >>>>>> servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether
> >>>>>> of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have a Jewish believer friend
> >>>>> who won't post Saturday out of respect
> >>>>> for the Sabbath. Do you understans
> >>>>> the meaning of hypocrite?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> No, she doesn't. She has indicated to me that she rejects the
> >>>> various sabbath commands as written, and she and her husband have
> >>>> invented their own sort of laws and beliefs on how they must keep
> >>>> the sabbath. If their way contradicts the written sabbath commands,
> >>>> their way takes precedence over the OT command because they apply
> >>>> what they think the NT teaches.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> But her problems go way beyond the sabbath, starting with having a
> >>>> false Christ.
> >>>
> >>> SoZ:
> >>> Do you have the godly character of love within you to define what in
> >>> your opinion is her "false Christ" and allow her to defend herself?
> >>
> >> ???????????/
> >>
> >> Giving place to the devil is a Godly character of love? Heaven
> >> Forbid!
> >>
> >> Ephes. 4:27
> >> Neither give place to the devil.
> >
> > The devil is a myth like the gods themselves.
> > Most religions have devils - humans are fascinated by them.
>
> Sorry, your options are limited to believing it now or believing it later.
Primitive concepts of this ilk is all you peope have and is what religion does to the brains of
otherwise normal people.
Another example -
St. Thomas Aquinas:
"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of god more
abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell"
HELL
Someone in heaven heard that his best friend down on earth had just passed away.
ÒOh I'm so looking forward to seeing him againÓ the man said.
ÒSorryÓ said God, ÒBut he will not be coming here because he has been a little more sinful than you, so
we will be sending him to that other place we call HellÓ.
So here's this man, sitting for eternity in paradise next to his loving God, whilst his friend, who had
been just a little more sinful than he, is about to roast for eternity on burning coals in a place
called Hell.
Is it conceivable that anything could be more banal, juvenile, or crassly stupid ?
bob young
Fred A Stover wrote:
> SwordoZ wrote:
> > "Fred A Stover" <fst...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:7mv8unF...@mid.individual.net...
> > SoZ:
> > I doubt you have the spiritual capability to comprehend Eph 5:9,10
> > ... but let's give it a try
> >
> > "(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and
> > truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord."
> >
> > Coprenda?
>
> You seem to be quite confused. What part don't you understand? You don't
> know the battle is spiritual? Are you suggesting we should embrace the
> devil? You need to elaborate for you're making no sense.
1) Define 'Spiritual'
2) Show with proof that the devil exists
Thanks
Donna Kupp
Donna writes:
God sanctified the sabbath at creation:
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all
the host of them.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he
had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work
which he had made.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God
created and made.
My ancestry is a non-issue. The blessings of the seventh-day
Sabbath are for all man-kind --and rightly observed it is a delight!
Donna Kupp
http://groups.google.com/group/Freetruth?hl=en,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/show.php?i=630302&cat=0
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
SwordoZ
Donna writes:
SoZ
yea.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all
the host of them.
SoZ
yea.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he
had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work
which he had made.
SoZ
The seventh day from what point?
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God
created and made.
SoZ
yea.
My ancestry is a non-issue.
SoZ
Are you ashamed?
The blessings of the seventh-day
Sabbath are for all man-kind --and rightly observed it is a delight!
SoZ
Don't disagree.
Donna Kupp
THE HISTORY OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH:
To summarise:
* Yahweh re-identified the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath
in the days of Israel's Exodus from Egypt
* The Messiah kept the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath.
Had he not done so he would have been a sinner.
* Calendar changes did not affect the weekly cycle.
* Jewish communities around the world have since the diaspora
kept track of the seventh day Sabbath, and all agree it is the
day
called Saturday.
These facts prove that Saturday is the seventh day of the week.
Author unknown
SwordoZ
To summarise:
SoZ
Question for donna.
How .... by what the Egyptian calendar conveyed?
* The Messiah kept the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath.
Had he not done so he would have been a sinner.
SoZ
Question for donna.
How did the Messiah know it was the seventh day so he wouldn't sin ... by
what the Julian calendar hanging on the wall conveyed?
* Calendar changes did not affect the weekly cycle.
SoZ
Question for donna?
Do you believe this statement?
* Jewish communities around the world have since the diaspora
kept track of the seventh day Sabbath, and all agree it is the
day
called Saturday.
SoZ
Question for donna -
Is your sabbath belief based on the "jewish" perspective?
These facts prove that Saturday is the seventh day of the week.
SoZ
Question for donna -
You believe the above are all factual?
Author unknown
SoZ
Why would anyone want to deny authorship with so much "facts"?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
What time zone?
When it's Saturday in Jerusalem, it is a different
day in other parts of the world.
Jim
Col 2:16 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:
Donna Kupp
<jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
Donna asks Jim:
Since you imply that you understand Col 2:16, then why have you
been judging me by the traditions of men. (For example your
Jewish friend's traditions) instead of the example of Jesus Christ
and the written instructions of the scriptures.
A BIBLE DAY
In the scriptures, a day is reckoned from evening to evening. The
Israelites, the Jews and Jesus all reckoned a day in that way.
Here that reckoning of a day from evening to evening was applied
to the sabbath of the Day of Atonement by God ...
"It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict
your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from
**even unto even,** shall ye celebrate your sabbath."
Lev 23:32
The weekly Sabbath is from the sunset of the sixth day (Friday) to
sunset of the seventh day (Saturday). That is the day Jesus kept
holy. People call the Sabbath "a delight" when they love their
Creator with all their hearts.
"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath,
from doing thy pleasure on my holy day;
and call the sabbath a delight,
the holy of the LORD, honourable;
and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways,
nor finding thine own pleasure,
nor speaking thine own words:
Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD;
and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the
earth,
and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:
for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
Isa 58:13-14 (KJV)
To the mocker who will ask: What if you live at the North Pole?
Our response is:
We observe the sabbath when the sun sets on the sixth day where
we live. If we ever move to the North Pole, the Holy Spirit will
teach us how to make suitable adjustments for that latitude.
Donna Kupp
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD,
AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." Rev 12:17 (KJV)
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
we live. If we ever move to the North Pole, the Holy Spirit will
teach us how to make suitable adjustments for that latitude."
At the North Pole, there are days with no dark,
and days with, no light. Legalism does become
difficult, after a while.
Jim
Lu 11:46 - And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade
men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the
burdens with one of your fingers.
Ike E 11/23/9
<jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2be8dedb-9e57-49b6...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> "These facts prove that Saturday is the seventh day of the week."
>
> What time zone?
>
> When it's Saturday in Jerusalem, it is a different
> day in other parts of the world.
<chuckle>
Ike
Ike E 11/23/9
[snip]
> Since you imply that you understand Col 2:16, then why have you
> been judging me by the traditions of men.
You mean, as when Jesus DOESN'T tie salvation to the law, ONLY POSITION?
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.
Greatest in the Kingdom; least in the Kingdom; but STILL IN the Kingdom, not
by works, but by grace through faith, and NOT works.
Your turn, Satan...
Ike
Donna Kupp
Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a
prating fool shall fall.
****************************************************************************************************
Ike E 11/23/9
> Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a
> prating fool shall fall.
Yes, but the wise in Spirit know it can't be done, and rely on God's grace
through faith instead.
Ike
Donna Kupp
Dear Reader,
Luke 11:46 is referring to the traditions of men --NOT THE
COMMANDMENTS
OF GOD!
The Commandments of God are never grievous; but a delight.!
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we
love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are NOT GRIEVOUS.
Donna Kupp
http://groups.google.com/group/Freetruth?hl=en,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/show.php?i=630302&cat=0
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
vince garcia
>
> On Nov 29, 9:26 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > "We observe the sabbath when the sun sets on the sixth day where
> > we live. If we ever move to the North Pole, the Holy Spirit will
> > teach us how to make suitable adjustments for that latitude."
> >
> > At the North Pole, there are days with no dark,
> > and days with, no light. Legalism does become
> > difficult, after a while.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Lu 11:46 - And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade
> > men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the
> > burdens with one of your fingers.
>
> Dear Reader,
>
> Luke 11:46 is referring to the traditions of men --NOT THE
> COMMANDMENTS
> OF GOD!
>
> The Commandments of God are never grievous; but a delight.!
really?
Is that why they bring death and condemnation, and have been DONE AWAY
WITH?
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was
glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the
face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be
done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the
ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect,
by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which
remaineth is glorious.
Donna Kupp
> Donna Kupp wrote:
>
> > On Nov 29, 9:26 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
> > <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > > "We observe the sabbath when the sun sets on the sixth day where
> > > we live. If we ever move to the North Pole, the Holy Spirit will
> > > teach us how to make suitable adjustments for that latitude."
>
> > > At the North Pole, there are days with no dark,
> > > and days with, no light. Legalism does become
> > > difficult, after a while.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > > Lu 11:46 - And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade
> > > men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the
> > > burdens with one of your fingers.
>
> > Dear Reader,
>
> > Luke 11:46 is referring to the traditions of men --NOT THE
> > COMMANDMENTS
> > OF GOD!
>
> > The Commandments of God are never grievous; but a delight.!
>
> really?
Donna writes:
Yes, really. If you don't like what I quoted, then argue with John.
These are his words --not mine:
vince garcia
>
> On Dec 4, 4:09 am, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > Donna Kupp wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 29, 9:26 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
> > > <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > "We observe the sabbath when the sun sets on the sixth day where
> > > > we live. If we ever move to the North Pole, the Holy Spirit will
> > > > teach us how to make suitable adjustments for that latitude."
> >
> > > > At the North Pole, there are days with no dark,
> > > > and days with, no light. Legalism does become
> > > > difficult, after a while.
> >
> > > > Jim
> >
> > > > Lu 11:46 - And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade
> > > > men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the
> > > > burdens with one of your fingers.
> >
> > > Dear Reader,
> >
> > > Luke 11:46 is referring to the traditions of men --NOT THE
> > > COMMANDMENTS
> > > OF GOD!
> >
> > > The Commandments of God are never grievous; but a delight.!
> >
> > really?
>
> Donna writes:
>
> Yes, really. If you don't like what I quoted, then argue with John.
> These are his words --not mine:
My problem is not with john--it is with YOU and your incompetant,
heretical misunderstangs of everything from the deity of Christ to the
plan of salvation.
vince garcia
Oh--and let me reiterate the verses from Paul that are oh-so-appropriate
for someone like you who thinks she will go to heaven by never breaking
the 10 commandments:
SwordoZ
> Donna Kupp wrote:
>> On Dec 4, 4:09 am, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> > Donna Kupp wrote:
>> > > On Nov 29, 9:26 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>> > > <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> My problem is not with john--it is with YOU and your incompetant,
> heretical misunderstangs of everything from the deity of Christ to the
> plan of salvation.
SoZ
Vinney stated ... "deity of Christ" ... do you deify Christ as God?
Fred A Stover
I see you're still proclaiming your devil worhipping doctrines You seem to
think to can read the scriptures and know what they mean. You can't it
requires His spirit: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned" (1Cor 2:14). What amazes me is how
you seem to have missed on of the earliest lessons of the Lord's mercy in
Genesis. How do you understand God's "punishment" of Cain for slaying Abel?
Again, you worship the devil. Ignoring the fact that it has nothing to do
with which sabbath is kept, or its keeping being a blessing instead of being
condemned for not keeping it.
The problem with your devil-worship. Like the legalists Jesus confronted,
you worship the devil's hinderances to salvation over God's mercy: "Woe
unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to
make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child
of hell than yourselves" (Matt 23:15)
You deceive people into ignoring the fact that there are two parties
involved in the affairs of men, such as the giving of the law (Job 1). And
you deceive people into believing the impediments to salvation (Is 1:12)
and doctrines of devils (1Tim 4:1-4) were added to the law by God.
You don't know the Lord. If you knew the Lord, you would know that there
was only one commandment in the garden which the devil used to tempt Adam,
and it is no longer a commandment when we have been restored in the new
earth. She would know that the devil's condemnations in the given law do not
apply to believers in Christ (Rom 8:1) for the Church is resurrected before
the judgment to reign and judge with Christ in the millennial world to come
"the saints shall judge the world" (1Cor 6:2): "I saw thrones, and they sat
upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them
that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and
which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received
his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned
with Christ a thousand years (but the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished). This is the first resurrection" (Rev
20:4-5).
You deny Christ reducing all in Him from judges to co-defendents with the
world. It is you who willfully sins, for having been warned of your heresy
you persisted in speaking against the Author of scripture, the Holy Spirit:
"A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of
himself" (Tit 3:10-11): "whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it
shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to
come" (Matt 12:32).
.
Stormin Mormon
There are six distinct meanings used in the Church, which
makes
communicating with those of other faiths difficult - we use
the same
words and think we're talking about the same things, but
we're not. We
end up talking past each other.
1) Overcoming (i.e. being saved from) physical death.
Synonymous with resurrection, but different than
what happened to Lazarus.
Free gift to all humanity, irrespective of religion.
2) Saved from the effects and consequences of sin (i.e.
made
clean from past transgressions)
3) Saved by being born again (i.e. our hearts are changed
so
that we no longer naturally choose evil over good - we
take
upon ourselves the name of Christ and become part of
the
Christian family)
4) Overcoming (i.e. being saved from) spiritual death.
The act of being reunited with our Father in
Heaven. Happens automatically on Judgement Day (as
in: "I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand
before God") Be sure to see #4 before you start
protesting. Also happens to all humanity.
5) Overcoming (i.e. being saved from) the second death.
Making it through Judgement Day, to live forever
with God.
6) Exaltation. Not only living again with out Father in
Heaven, but actually becoming like Him.
As I understand mainstream Christianity, "saved" refers
specifically to numbers 2 and 3, and a get out of jail free
card for
number 5. Regardless of how life is conducted after 2 and 3.
Stanley F. Nelson
eternity.
Rather, you will enjoy the glorious splendor of His presence, forever.
That's a pretty big deal.
Stanley F.Nelson
ACNA
Ike E 11/23/9
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hfon3i$9cb$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Sounds like a prelude to legalism to me...
Ike
bob young
"Stanley F. Nelson" wrote:
> "Saved" means you will not be separated or apart from God the Father for
> eternity.
>
> Rather, you will enjoy the glorious splendor of His presence, forever.
>
> That's a pretty big deal. . . . .
. . . . . . Which cannot be proven.
It can only happen by brainwashing using early cultural beliefs,
beliefs that that have no foundation outside of mythology,
which, in a sane world, would be declared a criminal act,
when perpetrated on young innocent children.
Regrettably THAT is the big deal Stan
>
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> Stanley F.Nelson
> ACNA