Dr. Jack Hyles & Dr. Charles Stanley
Rev. Sam Martin
things that they do not have all the facts about. Most of what is
being said is pure gossip. Please get your facts straight before
posting such terrible rumors.
Rev. Sam Martin
Micah Burke
Askjo
wedding ring on Stanley's finger on TV program and ask someone who know
about Stanley's divorcement. Dr Jack Hyles was adultery with his secretary
named Jenny Nischik.
A known lawyer who was faithful to Jack Hyles' church for nearly 20 years
and found out that Jack was adultery and his son, Dave was a murderer. This
lawyer, whom I contacted, wrote a book about the Hyles case. You should
read his book, and you will see the real Jack Hyles' life. I agreed with
that lawyer because I WAS there and witnessed what sadly happened there. A
lawyer was right! Sad story....YES!!!!! I never forget what I witnessed.
Askjo
Rev. Sam Martin <skma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51da3d9b.02012...@posting.google.com...
Askjo
Micah Burke <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A188206...@207.217.77.25...
Except his wedding ring.
Askjo
>
> Micah
Gordon Hammerle
news:91m48.1537$n46.1...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> You want all the facts about them so I have evidence. You can see NO
> wedding ring on Stanley's finger on TV program and ask someone who know
> about Stanley's divorcement. Dr Jack Hyles was adultery with his
secretary
> named Jenny Nischik.
> A known lawyer who was faithful to Jack Hyles' church for nearly 20 years
> and found out that Jack was adultery and his son, Dave was a murderer.
This
> lawyer, whom I contacted, wrote a book about the Hyles case. You should
> read his book, and you will see the real Jack Hyles' life. I agreed with
> that lawyer because I WAS there and witnessed what sadly happened there.
A
> lawyer was right! Sad story....YES!!!!! I never forget what I
witnessed.
>
> Askjo
>
He wrote a book for profit? Is that the God-ordained way to deal with what
allegedly happened? Are you supposed to be spreading gossip - whether it is
true or not?
Gordon Hammerle
g0r...@go-concepts.com
http://www2.go-concepts.com/~gordon/
Jesus Christ is the Captain of my soul.
Askjo
Gordon Hammerle <g0r...@go-concepts.com> wrote in message
news:u53vhrf...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:91m48.1537$n46.1...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > You want all the facts about them so I have evidence. You can see NO
> > wedding ring on Stanley's finger on TV program and ask someone who know
> > about Stanley's divorcement. Dr Jack Hyles was adultery with his
> secretary
> > named Jenny Nischik.
> > A known lawyer who was faithful to Jack Hyles' church for nearly 20
years
> > and found out that Jack was adultery and his son, Dave was a murderer.
> This
> > lawyer, whom I contacted, wrote a book about the Hyles case. You should
> > read his book, and you will see the real Jack Hyles' life. I agreed
with
> > that lawyer because I WAS there and witnessed what sadly happened there.
> A
> > lawyer was right! Sad story....YES!!!!! I never forget what I
> witnessed.
> >
> > Askjo
> >
>
>
> He wrote a book for profit? Is that the God-ordained way to deal with
what
> allegedly happened? Are you supposed to be spreading gossip - whether it
is
> true or not?
Is a true story spreading the gossip? Remember Numbers 32:23 saying,
"...your sin will find you out." Jack's sin is adultery. That's why his
sin found him out. If Dr Jerry Falwell, for example, committed adultery
with a woman, can you find who is this woman? No one finds her therefore
Jerry's sin did NOT find him out because he never commits adultery. Where
is the gossip against Rev. Jerry Falwell's affair with someone? I can't say
then there is no sin to gossip.
Askjo
Gordon Hammerle
Gossip can be something that is true or not true. You have no reason to
spread it.
How are we told in the Bible to confront a sinner?
Would you like if someone wrote a book about your sins? Would you like
people to post your sins to newsgroups?
Rev. Sam Martin
you guys are living in a deam world... I DO NOT beleieve anyone was
there and saw Dr. Hyles commit adultery
"Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message news:<91m48.1537$n46.1...@typhoon.neo.rr.com>...
Rev. Sam Martin
people are just looking for a way to make money... they were nobody
and when the print dirt on Dr. Hyles they get a little attention...
For the most part nobody knows them or hears what they say... check
and find out how any books he sold spreading gossip and check and see
how many books Dr. Hyles wrote trying to help the cause of Christ...
Dr. Hyles probably wrote more books than the number of copies his book
sold...
"Gordon Hammerle" <g0r...@go-concepts.com> wrote in message news:<u547cdp...@corp.supernews.com>...
Rev. Sam Martin
want anyone to know who they are...Quit hiding and come out and tell
us who you are... I am sick of people making up stories without
evidence to prove it... Unless the person was there in the room when
it happened they have NO right to accuse... I know of several
situation I could assuse people such as Rev. Robert Weiss in Madison
Wisconsin but I will not accuse him of anything because I didn't see
anything that I can persoanlly accuse him of.
"Gordon Hammerle" <g0r...@go-concepts.com> wrote in message news:<u547cdp...@corp.supernews.com>...
Don
wrote:
> Unless the person was there in the room when
>it happened they have NO right to accuse...
So you think that Bill Clinton never did anything bad?
> I know of several
>situation I could assuse people such as Rev. Robert Weiss in Madison
>Wisconsin but I will not accuse him of anything because I didn't see
>anything that I can persoanlly accuse him of.
Are you saying that Bill Clinton did NOT have sex with Monica?
D*
]
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
- Lilliam Hellman
Askjo
"Rev. Sam Martin" <skma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51da3d9b.02012...@posting.google.com...
> want anyone to know who they are...Quit hiding and come out and tell
> us who you are... I am sick of people making up stories without
> evidence to prove it...
Are you sick of Evangelist George Godfrey working with Jack Hyles for 16
years? Ask him to give you his evidence about his confrontation with Jack
Hyles. Do you want his evidence? Yes, of course, you go ahead and see this
Evangelist Godfrey!
Are you sick of a known lawyer Voyles Glover, an active member of Jack Hyles
church for nearly 20 years? He has some evidences against Jack and Dave
Hyles. Ask him to give you a picture of Brent Stevens with splints around
his legs. He was 17 months old and died. How did he die? Dave overdosed
him and murdered him. Evidence? Yes, go ahead to get it!
Are you sick of Victor Nischik, Jack's best friend? Ask him to tell you his
experience with Jack including huge money bribing ($100,000.00 to add home
improvements on Victor's house for his wife's SAKE), stealing Victor's wife,
ripping Victor off and so. Evidence from Victor? Yes of course! You go
ahead and see him! Don't be afraid of yourself!
Askjo
Askjo
Askjo
"Rev. Sam Martin" <skma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51da3d9b.02012...@posting.google.com...
> you guys are living in a deam world... I DO NOT beleieve anyone was
> there and saw Dr. Hyles commit adultery
Right! Except the door.
Askjo
Askjo
followers and others. You can look at the websites:
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/
http://wayoflife.org/fbns/hylessupporters.htm
Askjo
"Rev. Sam Martin" <skma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51da3d9b.02012...@posting.google.com...
Noble Exile
>Except his wedding ring.
>
What's your point?
**************************
Thou shalt weep no more.
Though you are given the bread of adversity,
Thine ear shalt hear a voice saying:
'This is the way, walk ye in it'
~ from the Prophecy of Isaiah~
Askjo
"Noble Exile" <lazar...@aol.comCutItOut> wrote in message
news:20020127222559...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Charles Stanley does not wear his wedding ring any more because he is a
divorced pastor of his church. Is his divorcement a fruit of the spirit?
Askjo
Yet Another Reformer
> what
> > allegedly happened? Are you supposed to be spreading gossip - whether it
> is
> > true or not?
>
> Is a true story spreading the gossip?
Webster says so.
> Remember Numbers 32:23 saying, "...your sin will find you out."
Remember Eph 5:12 saying "For it is a shame even to speak of those
things which are done of them in secret."
So what shall we do about it? "He who goes about as a slanderer reveals
secrets, therefore do not associate with a gossip." (Proverbs 20:19)
Askjo
Did Paul confront Peter?
>
> Would you like if someone wrote a book about your sins?
To me is say no if I decline to confess my sins before people. They could
speak out against me, however I would deny my sins. If I confess my sins
before the people in the church, I would, for sure, be fired. If Jack Hyles
confessed his adultery before members of his church, will he be FIRED?
Jack's son, Dave Hyles was FIRED twice times for the adultery act in Texas.
To have sins is to find you out according to Numbers 32:23. To have sins is
to be blamed. Not to have them is to be blameless.
Would you like
> people to post your sins to newsgroups?
If I confess my sins, they would post them to newsgroups any way. If I
decline to confess my sins, they would still post my sins to newsgroups.
One thing is 2 choices for the BEST or the WORST: if I confess my sins when
I am on the earth, God forgives me my sins fully; if I decline to confess my
sins, will God forgive me when I will be at Judgment Seat of Christ?
That's why I encouraged Jack Hyles to confess his sins then he will be
forgiven by God before he goes to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.
If he declined, I am 100% sure he will be extremely ashamed before the
Judgment Seat of Christ.
Askjo
KK4TL
>church.
>
> Is his divorcement a fruit of the spirit?
>
Actually it was something he worked very hard for *years* to prevent.
While those without sin are casting stones, maybe the rest of us could pray
that Mr. & Mrs. Stanley could experience the mercy of God and become
reconciled.
And maybe we could pray that Mr. and Mrs. Stanley might experience someone
showing them the compassion of James 5:19-20 and Galatians 6:1 in the midst of
all this "righteous" condemnation.
Askjo
"KK4TL" <kk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020128191628...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> >because he is a divorced pastor of his
> >church.
> >
> And ? ?
Right now he is not qualified for being a pastor because he violated the
Scripture. He said if his wife divorces me, he will resign immediately. He
still preaches on the pulpit after they got divorced. Where is the truth
that he tells us?
Askjo
Askjo
"Yet Another Reformer" <warm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C55DA8E...@hotmail.com...
Tell me what Matthew 18:15-18 say. Why did they not do it with Jack Hyles?
The simple reason is that they worship him than their God. That's very sad.
Askjo
KK4TL
>that he tells us?
>
I'll stick to a prayer for mercy towards Mr. and Mrs. Stanley.
I haven't always felt that way. Nope. About 20 years ago, I was a member of
an Independent, Premillineal, Fundamental, King-James-Only "Baptist" church.
Ahh the good old days. I was "right" about *everything*. Back then, I "knew"
that all Southern Baptists and Charismatics and Calvinists were going straight
to Hell. Period. Cause "pastor" said so. That's why.
In His mercy, God gradually removed the chip from my shoulder. One thing He
used to cut me down to size was a ... DIVORCE ! ! !
One thing I've learned about divorce over the years. Those without 'em have
all the answers. The "right" answers, at that.
May God intervene and reconcile Mr. and Mrs. Stanley.
And may God RICHLY bless the good folks over at http://www.founders.org .
Don
>
>"KK4TL" <kk...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20020128191628...@mb-ci.aol.com...
>> >because he is a divorced pastor of his
>> >church.
>> >
>> And ? ?
>
>Right now he is not qualified for being a pastor because he violated the
>Scripture. He said if his wife divorces me, he will resign immediately. He
>still preaches on the pulpit after they got divorced. Where is the truth
>that he tells us?
>
>Askjo
From what I understand, the congregation asked him to stay. She was
the one who divorced him.
The same thing happened to a pastor I had when in college. His wife
(influenced by a friend) left him and the two kids. Her friend also
left her husband.
D*
Noble Exile
>Charles Stanley does not wear his wedding ring any more because he is a
>divorced pastor of his church. Is his divorcement a fruit of the spirit?
What is a divorcement?
KK4TL
> was the one who divorced him.
>
( Don't pay me no mind .. I'm ... DIVORCED ! ! ! ! )
Don
>>the congregation asked him to stay. She
>> was the one who divorced him.
>>
>You're clouding the issue with facts. Knock it off.
I beg your pardon. What are you saying?
KK4TL
>
IE, "We had a perfectly irrational argument going here, and along comes you
with objective facts".
Askjo
> >Where is the truth
> >that he tells us?
> >
> I'm glad you're qualified to criticize him. Keep up the good work.
>
> I'll stick to a prayer for mercy towards Mr. and Mrs. Stanley.
Pray for them...absolutely.
>
> I haven't always felt that way. Nope. About 20 years ago, I was a member
of
> an Independent, Premillineal, Fundamental, King-James-Only "Baptist"
church.
I am curious to ask you one question: Are you Ruckmanitie? I use only the
KJV. That does not mean I am KJV onlyist.
>
> Ahh the good old days. I was "right" about *everything*. Back then, I
"knew"
> that all Southern Baptists and Charismatics and Calvinists were going
straight
> to Hell. Period. Cause "pastor" said so. That's why.
Depend on what they believe. Except they must repent, they can't be saved.
Except their faith, they can't be saved by easy believism.
>
> In His mercy, God gradually removed the chip from my shoulder. One thing
He
> used to cut me down to size was a ... DIVORCE ! ! !
>
> One thing I've learned about divorce over the years. Those without 'em
have
> all the answers. The "right" answers, at that.
Some people are not ministries such as pastors, evangelists and
missionaries. They got divorced. They can serve in their church as Sunday
School teachers (not official staffs--just volunteers). The qualification
of pastor is restricted by the Biblical instruction as read 1 Timothy 3:2
saying, "a Bishop..must be blameless, the husband of one wife...." If I am
a pastor, for example, I get divorced then I favor to resign from the pulpit
position because I must obey God and reverence His Words. Fear Him! I do
not understand why they ignored the Biblical instructions. The pride of
life?
>
> May God intervene and reconcile Mr. and Mrs. Stanley.
They can be restored and remarry.
Askjo
Askjo
"Noble Exile" <lazar...@aol.comCutItOut> wrote in message
> >"Askjo" Ao...@indy.rr.com
>
> >Charles Stanley does not wear his wedding ring any more because he is a
> >divorced pastor of his church. Is his divorcement a fruit of the spirit?
>
> What is a divorcement?
My error! I mean divorce.
Askjo
Gordon Hammerle
>
> Would you like
> > people to post your sins to newsgroups?
>
> If I confess my sins, they would post them to newsgroups any way. If I
> decline to confess my sins, they would still post my sins to newsgroups.
> One thing is 2 choices for the BEST or the WORST: if I confess my sins
when
> I am on the earth, God forgives me my sins fully; if I decline to confess
my
> sins, will God forgive me when I will be at Judgment Seat of Christ?
>
> That's why I encouraged Jack Hyles to confess his sins then he will be
> forgiven by God before he goes to stand before the Judgment Seat of
Christ.
> If he declined, I am 100% sure he will be extremely ashamed before the
> Judgment Seat of Christ.
>
> Askjo
>
So you are doing this for Jack Hyles sake? Because you want him to be
forgiven before he stands before God? Well then, you quit these posts
because he is already dead - and his son Dave did not replace him as pastor.
So please quit. Otherwise, we will plainly see your intentions are less
than honourable and you will be proven to be a liar. Remember, be sure your
sins will find you out.
Jason Dickey
insisted on ending the marriage. There are allowable instances of divorce -
the fact that one has an apostate spouse who refuses to continue your
marriage doesn't make YOU a sinner.
Of course, Dr. Stanley - who has a REAL doctoral degree and a vital
ministry - is no match for the great Jack Hyles and the "independent
fundamentalist" movement that insist we use the King James Bible ("it's the
one Jesus used!), believe the Earth is a mere 6,000 years old, schism from
all other Christians who don't think exactly the way we do on all isssues
however small, and yell and scream like a crazy person from the pulpit.
"Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4Jk58.12709$n46.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
Micah Burke
Micah Burke
> Charles Stanley got divorced because his wife essentially left
> the faith and insisted on ending the marriage.
Hmmm, doesn't sound like Mr. Stanley knows about the explicit
Biblical command against divorce except in the case of fornication.
> There are
> allowable instances of divorce - the fact that one has an
> apostate spouse who refuses to continue your marriage doesn't
> make YOU a sinner.
No, but it certainly disqualifies you from a teaching position in the
church.
> Of course, Dr. Stanley - who has a REAL doctoral degree...
There are many with doctoral degrees on that wide road to hell.
Micah
Noble Exile
>Date: 1/29/02 5:09 PM Central
>As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
What the hell is he supposed to do? Do you believe that when a 'marriage
covenant' is torn assunder by one partner, the other should live a lie,
pretending all is as it should be?
As Doc would say:
HORSE APPLES!!
Askjo
> "Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Bvl58.12734$n46.2...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> >
> > Would you like
> > > people to post your sins to newsgroups?
> >
> > If I confess my sins, they would post them to newsgroups any way. If I
> > decline to confess my sins, they would still post my sins to newsgroups.
> > One thing is 2 choices for the BEST or the WORST: if I confess my sins
> when
> > I am on the earth, God forgives me my sins fully; if I decline to
confess
> my
> > sins, will God forgive me when I will be at Judgment Seat of Christ?
> >
> > That's why I encouraged Jack Hyles to confess his sins then he will be
> > forgiven by God before he goes to stand before the Judgment Seat of
> Christ.
> > If he declined, I am 100% sure he will be extremely ashamed before the
> > Judgment Seat of Christ.
> >
> > Askjo
> >
>
> So you are doing this for Jack Hyles sake?
I will not do it for him except my true God.
Because you want him to be
> forgiven before he stands before God? Well then, you quit these posts
> because he is already dead - and his son Dave did not replace him as
pastor.
Exactly, what a sad story!
>
> So please quit. Otherwise, we will plainly see your intentions are less
> than honourable and you will be proven to be a liar.
What would you prove me to be a liar? Everyone are liars for little things
or making little excuses. You and I are liars too because we are sinners,
right? Admit? We do and ask God to forgive our sins. If you decline, it is
too bad for you likewise Jack Hyles or Charles Stanley.
Remember, be sure your
> sins will find you out.
Sure, I know that. It is better for me to confess my sins during residing on
the earth before I die. No plm! What's about you?
Askjo
Micah Burke
>> Micah Burke kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com
>>Date: 1/29/02 5:09 PM Central
>
>>As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
>
> What the hell is he supposed to do?
Obey God. And I don't think it has anything to do with "hell". One
might ask WHY she would divorce him...
> Do you believe that when a
> 'marriage covenant' is torn assunder by one partner, the other
> should live a lie, pretending all is as it should be?
Of course not, yet to obtain a divorce is not proper either. Or does
not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
> As Doc would say:
>
> HORSE APPLES!!
As Paul would say:
1 Corinthians 7:12
But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife
who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not
divorce her.
or as Christ would say:
Matthew 19:8-9
He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted
you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been
this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Micah
Askjo
"Jason Dickey" <Jas...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8hz58.9881$%h1.52...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> Charles Stanley got divorced because his wife essentially left the faith
and
> insisted on ending the marriage. There are allowable instances of
divorce -
> the fact that one has an apostate spouse who refuses to continue your
> marriage doesn't make YOU a sinner.
Andy Stanley confronted and clashed with his father, Charles. After that, he
escaped from their church. Why did he not confront his mother? Can't he
save his parent's marriage?
>
> Of course, Dr. Stanley - who has a REAL doctoral degree and a vital
> ministry
His scholar mind, not his spiritual life.
- is no match for the great Jack Hyles and the "independent
> fundamentalist" movement that insist we use the King James Bible ("it's
the
> one Jesus used!), believe the Earth is a mere 6,000 years old, schism from
> all other Christians who don't think exactly the way we do on all isssues
> however small, and yell and scream like a crazy person from the pulpit.
Dr Charles Stanley and Dr Jack Hyles are our problems because we are
Baptists who influence on people watching us for CL:EAR testimony.
Askjo
Micah Burke
>> one Jesus used!), believe the Earth is a mere 6,000 years old,
>> schism from all other Christians who don't think exactly the
>> way we do on all isssues however small, and yell and scream
>> like a crazy person from the pulpit.
>
> Dr Charles Stanley and Dr Jack Hyles are our problems because we
> are Baptists who influence on people watching us for CL:EAR
> testimony.
>
> Askjo
Therefore the likes of Stanley and others who willingly and publicly
disobey the very commands of the Lord they claim to serve are truly
wolves among the sheep. This should put into question the teaching of
any such individual.
Micah
Askjo
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A5A3B27...@207.217.77.23...
> lazar...@aol.comCutItOut (Noble Exile) spake thusly:
>
> >> Micah Burke kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com
> >>Date: 1/29/02 5:09 PM Central
> >
> >>As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
> >
> > What the hell is he supposed to do?
>
> Obey God. And I don't think it has anything to do with "hell". One
> might ask WHY she would divorce him...
>
> > Do you believe that when a
> > 'marriage covenant' is torn assunder by one partner, the other
> > should live a lie, pretending all is as it should be?
>
> Of course not, yet to obtain a divorce is not proper either. Or does
> not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
Exactly, I wonder, what does Dr. Stanley think of Malachi 2:16 saying,
"....he hateth putting away..."?
Askjo
Askjo
Their disobediece against our true God will influences others to add
inappropriate Biblical standard among many Christians because they will
derive Stanley's example and will do same thing for getting worse and worse.
They will increase to violate the Scripture in the future. No fear God!
Fear the humanity!
Askjo
>
> Micah
Micah Burke
>> Therefore the likes of Stanley and others who willingly and
>> publicly disobey the very commands of the Lord they claim to
>> serve are truly wolves among the sheep. This should put into
>> question the teaching of any such individual.
>
> Their disobediece against our true God will influences others to
> add inappropriate Biblical standard among many Christians
> because they will derive Stanley's example and will do same
> thing for getting worse and worse. They will increase to violate
> the Scripture in the future. No fear God! Fear the humanity!
>
> Askjo
Welcome to "American "Christianity"".
Micah
KK4TL
>Biblical command against divorce
>
against Mr. Stanley's wishes. Under Georgia law, a spouse wanting a divorce
doesn't need the other spouse's permission to get one.
One thing for sure .. those *without* divorvces certainly have all the answers
for those of us who have suffered through them.
>but it certainly disqualifies you from a teaching position in the
>church.
>
Does it really ?
Noble Exile
> One
>might ask WHY she would divorce him...
He has a really bad toupee.
>Of course not, yet to obtain a divorce is not proper either. Or does
>not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
>
I am sure he does as he claims to be a Golden Pen Inerrantist. However, I do
not think he obtained the divorce.
>1 Corinthians 7:12
>But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife
>who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not
>divorce her.
>
Did he divorce her or did she divorce him?
>Matthew 19:8-9
>He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted
>you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been
>this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
>immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Did he divorce her or did she divorce him?
KK4TL
>
>Or does not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
>
We can rest assured that Mr. Stanley is aware of God's feelings about divorce.
And *you* may rest assured that he fought hard to prevent the divorce.
The Atlanta media had quite a feeding frenzy in the early 1990's when Mrs.
Stanley almost pulled the plug. She finally agreed to some counselling and
attempts to reconcile. This worked for a few years, but apparently, she
reverted to plan "A" after all.
>and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
>
So what happens if *she* does NOT consent to live with him. What happens if
*she* proceeds with divorce against his wishes and against the advice of the
church?
KK4TL
>disobey the very commands of the Lord
>
Aww .. who needs facts. Let's just rip him apart. Never mind Matthew
12:36-37.
Rev. Sam Martin
you you don't really know what the scriptures teach about divorce and
I feel you need to read the Bible again and see what it says.
Some of you who are defending God's man I commend you. Pray for him.
Unless you have walked in his shoes then you have no right to be
critical.
Don <calldo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<2j2c5ukc5h6m8e9nm...@4ax.com>...
Rev. Sam Martin
very bitter and I feel your sin is worse. You need to kneel down
right now and confess your sin and repent and get off the internet.
You have so much sin in your life you can't see straight.
"Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message news:<ebL48.4086$n46.1...@typhoon.neo.rr.com>...
> "Rev. Sam Martin" <skma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:51da3d9b.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > Askjo doesn't put her or his name on the news group because they don't
> > want anyone to know who they are...Quit hiding and come out and tell
> > us who you are... I am sick of people making up stories without
> > evidence to prove it...
>
> Are you sick of Evangelist George Godfrey working with Jack Hyles for 16
> years? Ask him to give you his evidence about his confrontation with Jack
> Hyles. Do you want his evidence? Yes, of course, you go ahead and see this
> Evangelist Godfrey!
>
> Are you sick of a known lawyer Voyles Glover, an active member of Jack Hyles
> church for nearly 20 years? He has some evidences against Jack and Dave
> Hyles. Ask him to give you a picture of Brent Stevens with splints around
> his legs. He was 17 months old and died. How did he die? Dave overdosed
> him and murdered him. Evidence? Yes, go ahead to get it!
>
> Are you sick of Victor Nischik, Jack's best friend? Ask him to tell you his
> experience with Jack including huge money bribing ($100,000.00 to add home
> improvements on Victor's house for his wife's SAKE), stealing Victor's wife,
> ripping Victor off and so. Evidence from Victor? Yes of course! You go
> ahead and see him! Don't be afraid of yourself!
>
> Askjo
>
> Unless the person was there in the room when
> > it happened they have NO right to accuse... I know of several
> > situation I could assuse people such as Rev. Robert Weiss in Madison
> > Wisconsin but I will not accuse him of anything because I didn't see
> > anything that I can persoanlly accuse him of.
> >
> > "Gordon Hammerle" <g0r...@go-concepts.com> wrote in message
> news:<u547cdp...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > > "Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8fo48.2279$n46.3...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > > >
> > > > Gordon Hammerle <g0r...@go-concepts.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:u53vhrf...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > "Askjo" <Ao...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:91m48.1537$n46.1...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> > > > > > You want all the facts about them so I have evidence. You can see
> NO
> > > > > > wedding ring on Stanley's finger on TV program and ask someone who
> know
> > > > > > about Stanley's divorcement. Dr Jack Hyles was adultery with his
> secretary
> > > > > > named Jenny Nischik.
> > > > > > A known lawyer who was faithful to Jack Hyles' church for nearly
> 20
> years
> > > > > > and found out that Jack was adultery and his son, Dave was a
> murderer.
> This
> > > > > > lawyer, whom I contacted, wrote a book about the Hyles case. You
> should
> > > > > > read his book, and you will see the real Jack Hyles' life. I
> agreed
> with
> > > > > > that lawyer because I WAS there and witnessed what sadly happened
> > > there.
> > > A
> > > > > > lawyer was right! Sad story....YES!!!!! I never forget what I
> witnessed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Askjo
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > He wrote a book for profit? Is that the God-ordained way to deal
> with
> what
> > > > > allegedly happened? Are you supposed to be spreading gossip -
> whether
> > > it
> > > is
> > > > > true or not?
> > > >
> > > > Is a true story spreading the gossip? Remember Numbers 32:23 saying,
> > > > "...your sin will find you out." Jack's sin is adultery. That's why
> his
> > > > sin found him out. If Dr Jerry Falwell, for example, committed
> adultery
> > > > with a woman, can you find who is this woman? No one finds her
> therefore
> > > > Jerry's sin did NOT find him out because he never commits adultery.
> Where
> > > > is the gossip against Rev. Jerry Falwell's affair with someone? I
> can't
> say
> > > > then there is no sin to gossip.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Gossip can be something that is true or not true. You have no reason to
> > > spread it.
> > >
> > > How are we told in the Bible to confront a sinner?
> > >
> > > Would you like if someone wrote a book about your sins? Would you like
> > > people to post your sins to newsgroups?
> > >
> > >
Micah Burke
>>1 Corinthians 7:12
>>But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a
>>wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he
>>must not divorce her.
>>
>
> Did he divorce her or did she divorce him?
Does it matter? The event happened and he should be disciplined by
his church and counseled on the problems that occured. Is one whos
own wife deserts him appropriate for the pulpit?
Micah
Micah Burke
>>One might ask WHY she would divorce him...
>>
> Might be a good question. And the answer may be none of our
> business.
>
>>Or does not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
>>
> We can rest assured that Mr. Stanley is aware of God's feelings
> about divorce. And *you* may rest assured that he fought hard to
> prevent the divorce.
And now that it has occured, why does he continue to preach? For
Scripture is quite clear on the matter. The fact is that Stanley
doesn't and hasn't preached the gospel as Scripture teaches it for a
while and this is evidenced by the divorce and the easy-believism
doctrines he preaches.
Stanley married a woman and she divorced him, either he showed
horrible spiritual and emotional judgment in his marrying the woman
or something occured in the marriage that bears more scrutiny, either
way such an individual is unfit to lead.
Micah
Micah Burke
> Some of you who are defending God's man I commend you. Pray for
> him. Unless you have walked in his shoes then you have no right
> to be critical.
Stanley is not "God's man", in fact he's a leading teacher of a
false-gospel.
Micah
Micah Burke
>
> One thing for sure .. those *without* divorvces certainly have
> all the answers for those of us who have suffered through them.
Does the fact that I've not had a divorce mean that I am incapable of
discussing the Biblical truth about it? Using this argument we should
never say "murder is wrong" unless we'd already comitted it!
Divorce is a difficult topic and there is a clear balance between the
commands and grace. The grace allows us to continue to fellowship
with, pray for, and counsel those going through them, the commands of
Scripture however make it clear that a person who is divorced is not
to lead in such a way.
Micah
Micah Burke
A couple of things here... Matt. 12:36-37 says nothing about divorce.
However 1 Cor. 5 is quite clear on what our response to individuals
who publically flaunt their disobedience.
1 Cor. 5:11-13
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called
brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater,
or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with
such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge
those who are within the church?
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN
FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
The divorce doesn't discount Stanley from being a member of the body
of Christ, but one must really question his teaching if his own wife
leaves him.
Micah
Noble Exile
>Is one whos
>own wife deserts him appropriate for the pulpit?
>
The point is, Micah, HE did not do the divorcing. EVERY scripture you have
cited has SPECIFICLLY been concerning MEN who wantonly divorce their wife. If
you have other scriptural cites, please share them. If not, kindly cease with
your illogical , half baked Biblical theories on the matter.
I find your above comment to be crass and without serious merit.
Micah Burke
>
>>Is one whos
>>own wife deserts him appropriate for the pulpit?
>>
>
> The point is, Micah, HE did not do the divorcing. EVERY
> scripture you have cited has SPECIFICLLY been concerning MEN who
> wantonly divorce their wife.
Again, the divorce occured. Is there truly an innocent party in a
divorce? I'm not specifically saying that Stanley sinned in the
divorce, yet, again we must wonder what would cause the wife of such
a supposedly spiritual leader to divorce him?
1 Timothy 3:12
Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of
their children and their own households.
Sounds like Stanely was apparently not "good manager" of his
household, since that disqualifies him from being a decon it
certainly disqualifies him from being a bishop (or pastor) of a
church.
> If you have other scriptural
> cites, please share them. If not, kindly cease with your
> illogical , half baked Biblical theories on the matter.
>
> I find your above comment to be crass and without serious merit.
I find Charles Stanley's teaching to be deadly, I guess we're up to
our eyebrows in opinion.
Micah
KK4TL
>emotional judgment in his marrying the
>woman or something occured in the
>marriage that bears more scrutiny, either
>way such an individual is unfit to lead.
>
maybe were you privy to the situation(s) which led to the divorce?
Try to be a little more judgemental in your assessment of the situation. Don't
let a lack of facts get in your way.
And when your divorce happens against your best efforts to prevent it, you can
come back and tell us all about it.
Till then may Mr. and Mrs. Stanley experience the care and compassion spelled
out in James 5:19-20 and Galatians 6:1.
KK4TL
>discussing the Biblical truth about it?
>
haven't noticed that just "maybe" the rest of us know what this truth is as
well as you.
>Scripture however make it clear that a person who is divorced is not
>to lead in such a way.
>
Does it? Oops ... pardon me for having the audacity to ask .. since you're
*right* about everything.
Maybe others in this n-g are as un-impressed with your interpretation of
Scripture as I am. I said *maybe*.
Noble Exile
>Again, the divorce occured
yeah
>Is there truly an innocent party in a
>divorce?
YES
>I'm not specifically saying that Stanley sinned in the
>divorce, yet, again we must wonder what would cause the wife of such
>a supposedly spiritual leader to divorce him?
What a pompous, arrogant thing to say! I am NO fan of Charles Stanly, Micah
but your innuendo is tasteless, tacky,m unchristian, gossipy and putrid.
Write to the man, ask for an explaination, share it with us in it's entiriety.
Stop 'wondering' aloud about 'what' might have happened
KK4TL
>
point it out. Nice to have someone in the n-g who is *right* about everything.
>However 1 Cor. 5 is quite clear on what our response to individuals
>who publically flaunt their disobedience.
>
Sure is. Good thing there's no Scripture against those who publicly flaunt
their judgemental attitudes towards wounded brothers in Christ.
>But actually, I wrote to you not to
>associate with any so-called brother if he
>is an immoral person, or covetous, or an
>idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a
>swindler
>
So which of these best describes Mr. Stanley?
>but one must really question his teaching if his own wife leaves him.
>
Will someone out there in n-g land agree with me that this is the stupidest
comment ever published on the internet?
Duhhhhhh .. what if Mrs. Stanley had a will of her own ?
Did she ever publicize any accusations against Mr. Stanley that would indicate
that she was leaving due to defects in his teaching? Did she ever complain
publicly that he didn't try hard enough to save the marriage?
KK4TL
>cited has SPECIFICLLY been concerning MEN who wantonly divorce their wife.
>
Noble Exile
>Will someone out there in n-g land agree with me that this is the stupidest
>comment ever published on the internet?
Concerning Micah Burke's half ass assertion:
>>but one must really question his teaching if his own wife leaves him.
Well, there has been some fairly stupid, scary stuff postred against Roman
Catholic Chriastianity. There has been some downright terrifying racial hate
posted by Trailer Trash Will. But yeah, I think this is about as illogical as
it gets.
Everytime I read Micah's interpretations on ANYTHING scriptural, I count it as
a real Grace of the Holy Spirit that it is as far from Truth.
Noble Exile
>Did she ever complain
>publicly that he didn't try hard enough to save the marriage?
Of course not! If she had done anything of the sort Micah would have to deal
with FACTS, then shut up and crawl back under his rock and continue splicing
scripture.
KK4TL
>with FACTS, then shut up and crawl back under his rock
>
KK4TL
>
If he does this, he may have to confront TRUTH.
>share it with us in it's entiriety.
>
Better yet .. I hope he shares the facts about HIS divorce with us when it
happens. Let's see how Mr. "Right-About-Everybody-Elses-Business" handles
*that* one. :-)
KK4TL
>
Details ? Of the "clash" anyway. OTOH maybe Andy had some regard for the
"honor thy father and thymother" verse, and conducted a *respectful*
discussion.
Yep, it ended with his resigning from the North congregation. But maybe the
"clash" wasn't as hostile as you hoped.
>After that, he escaped from their church.
>
Quite easily done. FBC-Atlanta had these really HUGE front doors. Anyone
could walk out. Sadly, you must now take my word for it, as the "old church"
at Peachtree and 10th has since been demolished.
>Why did he not confront his mother?
>
And you're sure he *didn't* ? Please, share more of this insider information
with us outsiders.
>Can't he save his parent's marriage?
>
Safe to say he probably wanted too. But he was dealing with adults here.
People to whom he owed respect and honor, not hostility and insubordination.
Well .. maybe it says .. "honor thy father and thy mother .. unless you
disapprove of their marriage problems, then it's ok to get in their face and
give them a piece of your mind".
>we are Baptists who(se) influence on people
>watching us for CLEAR testimony.
>
The "clear" testimony here is that "we" would rather kill our wounded.
Noble Exile
When you reply to someone, would you incluse the tgs tellin us who theyare?
thanks!
Dave
Micah Burke
>
>>divorce?
>
> YES
I am quite sure the Bible disagrees with you.
>>I'm not specifically saying that Stanley sinned in the
>>divorce, yet, again we must wonder what would cause the wife of
>>such a supposedly spiritual leader to divorce him?
>
> What a pompous, arrogant thing to say!
Yep, that's what they said of Jesus and Paul. How ~dare~ they declare
to have the whole truth and nothing but it.
Micah
Micah Burke
>>Write to the man, ask for an explaination,
>>
> Stop it, Laz-Man .. you're killing me ! ! !
>
> If he does this, he may have to confront TRUTH.
Why would I write to a such a person?
>>share it with us in it's entiriety.
>>
> Better yet .. I hope he shares the facts about HIS divorce with
> us when it happens. Let's see how Mr.
> "Right-About-Everybody-Elses-Business" handles *that* one. :-)
I've been quite truthful about my past on these NGs. I will not be
getting a divorce, ever, for it is a heinous sin before God, and you
seem to forget that.
Micah
Askjo
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A66FD19...@207.217.77.24...
Is Stanley's teaching deadly? Please explain.
Askjo
>
> Micah
Askjo
> Askjo you are just trying to get revenge for something and you are
> very bitter and I feel your sin is worse. You need to kneel down
> right now and confess your sin and repent and get off the internet.
> You have so much sin in your life you can't see straight.
Is the truth that I tell you a sin?
Askjo
Bari Stepanovich
<kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've been quite truthful about my past on these NGs. I will not be
>getting a divorce, ever, for it is a heinous sin before God, and you
>seem to forget that.
>
>Micah
But not an unforgivable one.
In XC,
Bari Stepanovich
*****************************************************************************
IC XC
--+-- "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
NI KA
Yet Another Reformer
> household, since that disqualifies him from being a decon it
> certainly disqualifies him from being a bishop (or pastor) of a
> church.
Micah,
You should be careful before you really rile the divorce enthusiasts. :)
Actually your point is very good in that Chuck can't go about teaching
about family matters, unless credibility is of no concern, or he is now
part of the New Morality that says that you have no credibilty unless
you have done it. This has been a favorite accusation against Bill
Gothard since he has never been married, but yet his ministry is
primarily focused on family matters. The NM teaches that if you want to
teach about both marriage and divorce, then one should experience both.
Heck, I bet the NM rules would suggest that one who frequently gets in
to and out of marriages is even more credible than us unenlightened
doofuses who haven't made our required trip through divorce court. So
before you tell a child not to burn his hand on the stove, you must rest
your hand on a hot burner first.
The sermon implies "Don't do as I do, do as I say". Imagine if Abraham
divorced his barren wife.
Micah Burke
>> Sounds like Stanely was apparently not "good manager" of his
>> household, since that disqualifies him from being a decon it
>> certainly disqualifies him from being a bishop (or pastor) of a
>> church.
>
> Micah,
> You should be careful before you really rile the divorce
> enthusiasts. :)
Seems like the last time this was discussed I was on the other side
of this debate. I know how riled I was and I understand their
confusion and concern yet I am also learning, day by day, just how
holy God really is and how unholy we are, especially in our
comprimising of the Word.
> Actually your point is very good in that Chuck can't go about
> teaching about family matters, unless credibility is of no
> concern, or he is now part of the New Morality that says that
> you have no credibilty unless you have done it. This has been a
> favorite accusation against Bill Gothard since he has never been
> married, but yet his ministry is primarily focused on family
> matters. The NM teaches that if you want to teach about both
> marriage and divorce, then one should experience both. Heck, I
> bet the NM rules would suggest that one who frequently gets in
> to and out of marriages is even more credible than us
> unenlightened doofuses who haven't made our required trip
> through divorce court. So before you tell a child not to burn
> his hand on the stove, you must rest your hand on a hot burner
> first.
>
> The sermon implies "Don't do as I do, do as I say". Imagine if
> Abraham divorced his barren wife.
It's probable that these folks think that it was not only a viable
solution for him but one that God would "honor".
Micah
Micah Burke
>> I find Charles Stanley's teaching to be deadly, I guess we're
>> up to our eyebrows in opinion.
>
> Is Stanley's teaching deadly? Please explain.
>
> Askjo
I suggest you read his book "Eternal Security" for a peek at what we
"Calvinists" are always purported to teach (and yet don't.)
It's Stanley's belief that a one-time conversion 'experience',
wherein one raises their hand at a meeting or comes down an aisle for
prayer, IS a salvation experience. That is that justification alone
is salvation. Hebrews indicates that justification is only part of
salvation and that those who believe they are justified and yet show
no evidence of sanctification are in fact deluded.
Stanley even goes on to explain that there are many "saved"
individuals who bear no fruit... so much for such trees being cut
down and thrown into the fire. This concept has a world of
'believers' who are only believers cause they said some 'sinners
prayer' once in their life and yet are not obedient to God. This
gives many a false-hope of salvation while abiding in willfully
sinful lives.
This is the so-called "easy believism" that John MacArthur wrote
against in his "Gospel According to..." series (not to mention that
which James, Paul, Peter and John lament throughout their letters).
While Mac perhaps went a bit too far in his books in promoting works
as a means unto righteousness, there is a balance that can be found
in the writings of a few individuals.
Micah
Micah Burke
>
>> Askjo you are just trying to get revenge for something and you
>> are very bitter and I feel your sin is worse. You need to
>> kneel down right now and confess your sin and repent and get
>> off the internet. You have so much sin in your life you can't
>> see straight.
>
> Is the truth that I tell you a sin?
>
> Askjo
Only in the minds of those who are perishing!
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for
themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
You think Stanley fits in this category?
Micah
KK4TL
>Micah,
>You should be careful before you really rile the divorce enthusiasts. :)
YAR .. you must be dizzy from riding the merry-go-round at Bell View too long.
I don't think we've heard from any "divorce enthusiasts". Just a few of us who
don't care for the accusations and suppositions that have been launched at Mr.
Stanley.
Mr. Micah is long on opinion but very short on facts. Unless he was privy to
the discussions that took place between Mr. and Mrs. Stanley prior to their
break-up.
Soooo .. was he there ? Didn't think so.
It was also suggested that Mr. Micah take a break from supposing what the facts
might be and write a letter to Mr. Stanley to get the particulars.
What are the odds? Nahh .. why cloud the issue with ... facts ??
Better run, YAR ... else the rolly-coaster is gonna leave without you.
Mike Barefield
> kk...@aol.com (KK4TL) spake thusly:
>
> >>One might ask WHY she would divorce him...
> >>
> > Might be a good question. And the answer may be none of our
> > business.
> >
> >>Or does not Mr. Stanley know that God HATES divorce?
> >>
> > We can rest assured that Mr. Stanley is aware of God's feelings
> > about divorce. And *you* may rest assured that he fought hard to
> > prevent the divorce.
>
> And now that it has occured, why does he continue to preach? For
> Scripture is quite clear on the matter. The fact is that Stanley
> doesn't and hasn't preached the gospel as Scripture teaches it for a
> while and this is evidenced by the divorce and the easy-believism
> doctrines he preaches.
>
> Stanley married a woman and she divorced him, either he showed
> horrible spiritual and emotional judgment in his marrying the woman
> or something occured in the marriage that bears more scrutiny, either
> way such an individual is unfit to lead.
>
Let me first say I am not a defender of Stanley. But, it seems likely that
the enemy has won a battle. Anyone with a little spiritual awareness would
realized that all men (and women) of God fall under the attack of the enemy
so that the gospel can be hampered or stopped.
I do not know all the circumstances, but did Stanley submit to a board or
something, step down for a while and then come back or did he just continue?
Linda409
>As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
Fundamentalist interpretation of divorce scriptures is like their view of
slaves before the American Civil War. That is to say flawed, traditional,
religious, but not biblical. A must see book:
www.bookstore.TheatronMedia.com. It's about time the fundamentalist were
shown they DON'T have the high moral ground on this issue. Most treat the
divorced shamefully, and this is not the Christian way.
Linda
"Noble Exile" <lazar...@aol.comCutItOut> wrote in message
news:20020129182515...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> > Micah Burke kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com
> >Date: 1/29/02 5:09 PM Central
>
> >As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
>
> What the hell is he supposed to do? Do you believe that when a
'marriage
> covenant' is torn assunder by one partner, the other should live a lie,
> pretending all is as it should be?
>
> As Doc would say:
>
> HORSE APPLES!!
Linda409
Your're too cruel for words. I've said it before, I'll say it again, you
need badly to read "The Divorce Reality" at www.bookstore.TheatronMedia.com
I would hate for divorce to visit you, but if you're married it may. I
wouldn't wish divorce on you, but if it happened you'd change your ugly
self-righteous talk pretty quick!
Linda
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A66FD19...@207.217.77.24...
Linda409
Micah
How dare you quote this passage to demean and belittle Stanley:
1 Cor. 5:11-13
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called
brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater,
or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with
such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge
those who are within the church?
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN
FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
In reality, these are the grounds for any divorce! If a person is to be
removed from the church for doing them, they certainly should be removed a
marriage if they do the same things.
Linda
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A66747D...@207.217.77.21...
> kk...@aol.com (KK4TL) spake thusly:
>
> >>likes of Stanley and others who willingly and publicly
> >>disobey the very commands of the Lord
> >>
> > This is a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you have all
> > the facts ?
> >
> > Aww .. who needs facts. Let's just rip him apart. Never mind
> > Matthew 12:36-37.
>
> A couple of things here... Matt. 12:36-37 says nothing about divorce.
> However 1 Cor. 5 is quite clear on what our response to individuals
> who publically flaunt their disobedience.
>
> 1 Cor. 5:11-13
> But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called
> brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater,
> or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with
> such a one.
> For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge
> those who are within the church?
> But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN
> FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
>
> The divorce doesn't discount Stanley from being a member of the body
> of Christ, but one must really question his teaching if his own wife
> leaves him.
>
> Micah
KK4TL
>
here and be the "righteous" judge.
>I will not be getting a divorce, ever,
>
Famous last words .. I've even said them myself once upon a time.
>for it is a heinous sin before God,
>
Agreed. So far I have *not* denied the terrible-ness of divorce.
>and you seem to forget that.
>
Not hardly .. I'm the one who lives with it every day .. get it ?
Oh .. by the way .. is the sin of divorce a sin which God could possibly
forgive ? Or is it that dreaded *unnn-pardonable* sin ?
Micah Burke
> Micah
>
> Your're too cruel for words. I've said it before, I'll say it
> again, you need badly to read "The Divorce Reality" at
> www.bookstore.TheatronMedia.com
Tragic, when bookstore books become our source for doctrine rather
than Scripture.
> I would hate for divorce to visit you, but if you're married it
> may.
Tough times may come, but the Lord is the center of our relationship
and it is the love of Him that drives us together. I am shocked at
the humor people find in suggesting such horrifying things. I
recommend you study Scripture further and determine exactly how holy
God really is, then, once you have an inkling at that, look around
you and begin to question everything. One will understand how really,
trully horrible divorce is when one understands God's relationship to
us.
>I wouldn't wish divorce on you, but if it happened you'd
> change your ugly self-righteous talk pretty quick!
>
> Linda
I have a good friend whose wife left him years ago. He has remained
faithful to her even though she wants nothing to do with him. His
focus is on God and God's will for his life, he has determined to
remain unmarried until the day he dies unless his wife returns to
him.
My parents have also experienced divorce, my mother divorced her
first husband after the years of abuse nearly killed her first son.
My father married her when his wife died. They had many problems
because of this, yet neither was a believer in their first marriages
and weren't saved until later. I do have a personal understanding of
divorce and what divorce can do, growing up all of my friends were
from divorced families. Yet none of these couples were believers.
I even had a pastor who divorced his wife and married another woman,
he was, rightfully, thrown out of the church.
C. Stanley is supposedly a spiritual leader and yet his own wife
divorces him. This either shows that he had a lack of spiritual
discernment in marrying her or in dealing with her relationally in
the marriage. Perhaps if he had properly taught her of God's hatred
of divorce rather than cater to individuals seeking them, she might
not have gone that route and sought reconciliation. However, it
happened, and yet Stanley insists on continuing to lead. His messages
are still broadcast on the radio and I saw him on TV just recently.
What kind of leader is a man who cannot even handle his own
household?
There is certainly room for grace in dealing with such situations,
but grace does not negate justice nor appease sin.
Micah
Micah Burke
>
>>As if the fact that ~she~ divorced him negates Scripture?
>
> Fundamentalist interpretation of divorce scriptures is like
> their view of slaves before the American Civil War.
You're a woman, do you believe you have the authority to teach?
Perhaps you've been watching too much Joyce Meyers?
> That is to say flawed, traditional, religious, but not biblical
What part of "I HATE DIVORCE" do you not understand?
Micah
Micah Burke
>
> Micah
>
>
> How dare you quote this passage to demean and belittle Stanley:
>
> 1 Cor. 5:11-13
> But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any
> so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous,
> or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a
> swindlernot even to eat with such a one.
> For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not
> judge those who are within the church?
> But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN
> FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
>
> In reality, these are the grounds for any divorce! If a person
> is to be removed from the church for doing them, they certainly
> should be removed a marriage if they do the same things.
Calm yourself. You seem to think you have a God-given gift to
exercise authority over men! The fact of the matter is, once again,
that Stanley has experienced a divorce and is now unfit to lead a
church, he isn't even qualified for a decon role (or so the BIBLE
says.) But that's aside from the fact that he continues to preach a
gospel apart from Scripture wherein people are saved without
obedience to Christ.
Let's examine your statement:
"In reality, these are the grounds for any divorce!
If a person is to be removed from the church for doing them,
they certainly should be removed a marriage if they do the
same things."
Scripture never gives a woman the right to divorce. In fact, it
states that if an unbeliever is willing to stay they must remain
married!
1 Corinthians 7:10
But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord,
that the wife should not leave her husband
13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents
to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
Unbelievers abound in all sorts of sin, yet Scripture does not make
allowance for divorce in any circumstance, except 'fornication'
(porneia) which may include adultery. But even this is a situation
which must be dealt with Biblically.
Remember, God HATES divorce, why don't you?
Micah
Noble Exile
> But that's aside from the fact that he continues to preach a
>gospel apart from Scripture wherein people are saved without
>obedience to Christ.
Please give explicit, primary cite examples.
vernon
"Noble Exile" <lazar...@aol.comCutItOut> wrote in message
> > Micah Burke kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com
>
> > But that's aside from the fact that he continues to preach a
> >gospel apart from Scripture wherein people are saved without
> >obedience to Christ.
>
> Please give explicit, primary cite examples.
Beyond cites. Is the implication that only those obedient to Christ are
saved?
Micah Burke
>
>>
>> > But that's aside from the fact that he continues to preach a
>> >gospel apart from Scripture wherein people are saved without
>> >obedience to Christ.
>>
>> Please give explicit, primary cite examples.
Buy his book and read it.
Stanley sees salvation as a one time response to the gospel message.
> Beyond cites. Is the implication that only those obedient to
> Christ are saved?
The implication of SCRIPTURE is that only those obedient to Christ
are saved. Salvation is not just ~justification~ instead Scripture
teaches that those who are saved are those who are conformed to His
image. Those conformed to His image are a "new creation" and obedient
to Christ. This does not imply a sinless perfection attainable on
Earth but an ongoing sanctification that occurs as one matures in
Christ.
"Eternal Security" is Walmart quality teaching for Walmart quality
Christians, they want their god at the lowest cost possible. Stanley,
like Maz and Vernon here rejects that people will be sent to hell
based on their sinfulness, but believes that the only sin worthy of
punishment is 'rejecting Christ'. Thus Stanley integrates his
Arminian theology with a flavor of the Reformation all the while
making lots of people sigh with relief, now they don't have to be
obedient, they merely have to give lip service to Christ.
Eternal Security pg. 70
"The debate is over whether or not a man can be on his way to
heaven one minute and on his way to hell the next. To answer
that question, we must understand exactly what sends a person to
hell. As we have seen, sin alone is not enough. . . . It takes
more than simply sinning to get to hell. . . . It is not lying,
cheating, stealing, raping, murdering, or being unfaithful that
sends people to hell. It is rejecting Christ, refusing to put
their trust in Him for the forgiveness of sin."
This is quite contradictory to Scripture which states:
Do you not know that the wicked will NOT inherit the kingdom of
God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Cor. 6:9,10)
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality,
impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred,
discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions,
factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn
you, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT
inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21).
The problem with Stanley's book and his theology is that it causes
false hope in those who merely tack the name of Christ onto their
sinful lives. I cannot count the number of people I've met who claim
Christ and yet engage in Yoga, trancedental meditation and other
unholy religions. There are also those (as I once was) who use
"eternal security" as a means to sin, believing that ~faith~ alone
saves... while it is true that faith alone justifies, it is not the
faith that Stanley speaks of, but an obedient faith that produces
good fruit.
I would recommend, as a balance, one read this book and "The Gospel
According to Jesus" & "The Gospel According to the Apostles" by John
MacArthur and compare.
I've got a multi-page refutation by a good friend of mine I may post.
Also note that Eternal Security - by Charles Stanley is available at
Walmart.com... kinda funny.
Micah
Micah Burke
Charles Stanley And Wife Divorce
ATLANTA, GA (BP) -- Charles Stanley and his wife, Anna, have
divorced. According to an official of First Baptist Church, Atlanta,
Stanley will remain as senior pastor.
Stanley, 67, told the congregation in a service May 21. Following his
report, Gerald Spicer, church administrator, told the congregation
Stanley would remain as senior pastor. The congregation rose in
applause.
According to the May 23 edition of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution,
Anna Stanley filed a petition as "A.J. Stanley" requesting a divorce
from "C.F. Stanley" on Feb. 16 charging their marriage of 44 years
was "irretrievably broken." An Atlanta judge signed the final decree
May 11 following the execution of a property agreement by the
Stanleys April 5.
The Stanleys troubled marriage was made public in the 1990s and
caused some struggles in the church because of an unwritten policy
that First Baptist not allow divorced men to serve as ministers or
deacons.
Stanley told the congregation in 1995, "If my wife divorces me, I
would resign immediately."
"We hate it that things like this happen, but our church is moving
right along," said the vice chairman of the church's deacons, Jerry
Beal, according to the Atlanta newspaper. "He is our pastor, and he
will remain our pastor."
Pastor of the Atlanta church since 1972, Stanley is a former
president of the Southern Baptist Convention and his In Touch
television ministry is seen and heard around the world.
According to the Atlanta newspaper, SBC President Paige Patterson
said he is "deeply sympathetic with the sorrow I know all of the
Stanley family must feel over this. It ought to be a wakeup call for
America that if something like this can happen to the Stanley family,
it shows how much society has lost its bearings."
© 2000, Baptist Press
(Post date: May 24, 2000)
Micah Burke
By Mark Wingfield
Managing Editor
WASHINGTON--Southern Baptist leaders who have opposed no-fault
divorce and who have criticized President Clinton for his moral
lapses should not remain silent on the divorce of Charles Stanley,
Chuck Colson said in a nationwide radio broadcast June 13.
Stanley, pastor of First Baptist Church of Atlanta and a former
Southern Baptist Convention president, announced May 21 that he and
his wife, Anna, had divorced. The couple had been separated
previously and reportedly had experienced marital difficulties for
years.
Five years ago, during a separation and threatened divorce, Stanley
told his congregation if the conflict turned to divorce he would step
down as pastor. But when the divorce was announced last month,
Stanley indicated he planned to remain as pastor of the Atlanta
church.
A church spokesman explained that "God has positioned Dr. Stanley in
a place where his personal pain has validated his ability to minister
to all of us."
The congregation reportedly applauded when told Stanley would remain
as pastor despite the divorce.
The church's explanation and the congregation's applause are
unsettling to Colson, founder of Prison Fellowship and a Southern
Baptist himself.
Have our churches become so accustomed to moral failure that we
applaud it?" he asked in the radio commentary. "If this is the test
of being a good shepherd, should we also endorse pedophiles as
pastors so they can better empathize with people who commit child
abuse? How far do you carry this preposterous argument?"
The church's explanation of why Stanley should remain as pastor is
"pure Clinton-speak," Colson said. "Those of us who criticized the
president for quibbling over words to defend his sordid behavior have
to be even-handed. And what was wrong for Mr. Clinton is certainly
wrong for the pastor of one America's leading churches."
Stanley is widely known not only as pastor of the prominent Atlanta
church but as a television preacher through his "In Touch"
broadcasts.
SBC leaders have freely expressed criticism of Clinton throughout
his administration, even calling on his home church in Arkansas to
expel him from membership. But to date, no SBC leader has publicly
questioned Stanley's divorce.
Stanley's decision places his fellow Baptists in a difficult
position," Colson asserted, noting that in 1998 the SBC passed a
resolution calling on states to revoke "no fault" divorce laws. "Yet
now a former president of the convention is using these very same
laws to secure a divorce without consequences.
"If Charles Stanley can do this, then how can Southern Baptists
presume to speak to their neighbors about marital fidelity?" Colson
asked.
Colson expressed personal admiration for Stanley as a minister,
calling him a "good and faithful servant." However, he said, "he
needs first a time for personal repentance and healing."
"Biblical standards for pastors are very high, and rightly so,"
Colson explained. "Given the already high divorce rate among
Baptists, the last thing we need to do is to give one of our own
leaders a pass, no matter how much we may respect him."
Micah Burke
Biblical Recorder:
Journal of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina
The irony is glaring in the juxtaposition of Charles Stanley's
divorce and the divorce policy set forth by the North American
Mission Board (NAMB) for new Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)
chaplains (June 10 BR, printed edition). However, Stanley can
continue as a non-scriptural divorced pastor because God has assured
him that he is where God wants him to be. He remains committed to his
call.
On the other hand, divorced SBC chaplains will not be appointed or
endorsed for mission service unless their divorce meets biblical
criteria for divorce, which seems to be sexual unfaithfulness and
desertion. The NAMB guidelines are for those in pastoral roles, not
other ministry positions.
The sad irony resides in the fact that God, in Pastor Stanley's case,
apparently transcended scripture and made an exception. Can God do
that? It seems for Pastor Stanley that God can and does act with
compassion, not rule, and mercy, not law. Therein is the hope for
all.
Luther G. Brewer
Cary, N.C.
http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/opinion/6_23_2000/divorce.html
Micah Burke
Stanley. Stanley, pastor of First Baptist Church in Atlanta, was
recently divorced by his wife of 44 years. However, instead of
resigning from his ministry as he had promised five years earlier,
Stanley vowed to remain as senior pastor. Announcing the situation
to the congregation, administrative pastor Gearl Spicer said, “It is
my biblical, spiritual, and personal conviction that God has
piece of theological manipulation. Apparently, God caused the
Stanley divorce for the benefit of the church. As Spicer concluded
his statement, the people of First Baptist responded with spontaneous
applause."
Spiritual Leadership: Acting with Integrity
Kenton C. Anderson, Ph.D. - ACTS Seminaries
January 12, 2001
Yet Another Reformer
> continue as a non-scriptural divorced pastor because God has assured
> him that he is where God wants him to be. He remains committed to his
> call.
I can only imagine how God allegedly "assured [Stanley] that he is where
God wants him to be."
Burning of the Bosom®? Burning bush? Miss Clio? Personal physical
appearance of Jesus Christ? Bible Codes? Signs in the heavens? Dreams?
The visage of Mary on the side of a barn? Samuel conjured up by a
witch?
So God made an exception for Stanley
Or does the New And Improved International Southern Baptist Convention
Bible read:
1 Tim 3:12 A deacon can be the husband of one wife at a time or must
manage his children or his household or business well. (N&IISBCV)
Micah Burke
>> However, Stanley can
LOL! The smackdown continues! "Chair! Chair! Chair!"
Micah
Yet Another Reformer
> Stanley divorce for the benefit of the church. As Spicer concluded
> his statement, the people of First Baptist responded with spontaneous
> applause."
Clearly a sign of a cult when a personality is greater than the Word of
God.
Then again, it may be a huge mortgage that needs to be paid...
Or, now Chuck is like the majority of those who "responded with
spontaneous applause".
Prov 1:14 Cast in your lot among us, let us all have one purse"--
Exod 23:2 "You shall not follow a multitude in doing evil...
Gordon Hammerle
I agree that many people mistakenly think they have been saved because
someone led them in a sinner's prayer. That is why so many churches these
days lack influence for God - many of the members are not born again.
I'm just curious how you fit this passage in with your post - especially
verse 9.
(1 John 3:7-11) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth
righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. {8} He that committeth
sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this
purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of
the devil. {9} Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {10} In this
the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever
doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his
brother. {11} For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that
we should love one another.
Yet Another Reformer
> > "The debate is over whether or not a man can be on his way to
> > heaven one minute and on his way to hell the next. To answer
> > that question, we must understand exactly what sends a person to
> > hell. As we have seen, sin alone is not enough. . . . It takes
> > more than simply sinning to get to hell. . . . It is not lying,
> > cheating, stealing, raping, murdering, or being unfaithful that
> > sends people to hell. It is rejecting Christ, refusing to put
> > their trust in Him for the forgiveness of sin."
What is even worse with such demonic doctrine that Stanley foists on
people, is that if the sin that condemns is "rejecting", then it opens
the gates of heaven for all of those past, present and future who "have
not heard the gospel", thus they never had the opportunity to actively
"reject" Christ.
Solution that is implied: Don't tell anyone the gospel so that they
have excuse. (Rom 1:20)
Micah Burke
Gordon,
A complete understanding of salvation is incomplete without a
thorough investigation into sanctification. And perhaps this is the
problem many folks have. As I stated earlier, there is a seperation
of the elements of salvation from each other in many churches today.
These elements being justification, sanctification and glorification.
As Romans 8 explains predestination is not merely unto justification
but the ~whole~ process. God predestines His elected to be conformed
to the image of His Son. This is not justification alone.
Folks like Stanley and Zane Hodges apparently ignore the clear
indication of Scripture (as the ones you've provided) that one who is
truly justified will bear evidence of sanctification in their life.
The key to understanding v.9 is found in Hebrews, in my opinion.
Heb. 4:6
Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who
formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because
of disobedience,
The -disobedience- spoken of here is unbelief, as v. 2 explains. The
sin spoken of in 1 John 3:9 is not specifically unbelief, but all sin
is the result of unbelief.
The sacrifice offered by the Jewish priests for atonement was for
sins comitted in ignorance or unintentionally, but willful,
purposeful disobedience was punished. (Lev. 16)
Hebrews 5:1-4
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on
behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer
both gifts and sacrifices for sins;
he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he
himself also is beset with weakness;
and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins,
as for the people, so also for himself.
And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he
is called by God, even as Aaron was.
So we see that Christ is our high priest and final sacrifice for sins
that we've comitted prior to our justification (for that IS our
justification). Yet we see that obedience is a condition of that
atonement.
Hebrews 5:9-10
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey
Him the source of eternal salvation,
being designated by God as a high priest according to the order
of Melchizedek.
This clearly explains that often misunderstood section of Hebrews 6.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have
tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the
Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers
of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible
to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to
themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
This is a picture of many a 'christian' today, they are fellowshiping
with the body, have heard the commands of God and fall away because
of unbelief. We know this because the author of Hebrews explained it
back in chapter 3. This is the ~sin~ being spoken of in 1 John.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you
an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Falling away is not something someone who is truly chosen by God can
do, but, like the Israelites, appears to be one of the elect but
their deeds bear out the fact that they are actually unbelievers.
(FYI: To prove that 6:4-6 is not talking about those who are truly
saved, one only needs to look to v.9)
This is why we can truly say that salvation is by grace through
faith. Faith is that by which God establishes Christ in us. But if we
fall away it proves that we were never part of Him.
Hebrews 10:38-39
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS
BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of
those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Now we see that faith not only justifies us, but preserves us to.
This is the sanctifying work of God in us to perfect us by faith.
(10:10) So if we sin, willingly and defiantly, we perhaps show that
we are unbelieving and dull of hearing like the Israelites who fell
in the desert.
This is what so many are missing, this is the true fear that
Christians should carry, not that they can "lose their salvation" but
that they never had it in the first place and are merely going
through the motions.
Therefore 1 John is yet another warning against unbelief. One who
knows of God's holiness (as per the Law of God) and yet purposely
disobeys the commandments of God, certainly does not fear God and
shows that they have an unbelieving heart.
Now, many of us tremble in fear by the implications of these verses
and rightly so. When you are made aware of the expectations of God,
you are responsible to be obedient to that which you've heard.
Col. 1:21-23
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind,
engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His
fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him
holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in
the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away
from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was
proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul,
was made a minister.
Hebrews 2:1
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we
have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
So we see that a one time profession of faith is ~not~ salvation. Nor
is it truly justification, for the progression in Romans 8 doesn't
stop but it wrought by God. A one time profession of faith is, if
anything, just an indication of one being under the judgement of God
and aware of their understanding of it. One who makes such a
profession of faith must therefore live by that faith or face the
wrath of God.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides
in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I believe the NASB captures better the context of the verse, if one
is truly justified they are being sanctified by God they will not go
about ~practicing~ sin. That is that they do not make a continual
habit of sin and instead are convicted of sin and repentant as the
pattern in Romans 7 explains.
Micah
Askjo
Askjo
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Askjo
Askjo
"Micah Burke" <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Allan Sims
I must disagree with the idea that one of the elect can not fall away;
but that is somewhat of a minor issue. Your efforts are excellent in
presentation; and well formatted.
Peace
Allan
Micah Burke <kloc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns91A868690...@207.217.77.24>...