Atheist's Brains
IKnowHimDoYou- A.
We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
They are the result of a big bang-
that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
El Bleacho
Why do you believe that Jesus was the Son of Man, when he clearly violated
God's commandments and God's word? Please defend the following points:
1) Jesus did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2) Jesus did not gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3) Jesus did not usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred,
oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up
sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4) Jesus did not spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will
unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world --
on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
5) Jesus violated Torah: The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full
Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain
binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately
identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
6) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states
that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16,
Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste
in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He
does not observe Shabbat!"
7) Jesus was a test for Jews: Judaism, unique among all of the world's
major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its
religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of
"miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah
(Deut. 13:4).
8) Jesus existance as Son of Man violated Old Testament as follows: The
Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father,
the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the
Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every
day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and
head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a
Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
9) Jesus violated the Ten Commandments: In Judaism, prayer is a totally
private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is
near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten
Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that
it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides -
Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
AR
some "scatter brain" atheists:
Albert Einstein
Andrew Carnegie
Carl Sagan
Ernest Hemingway
John Adams (President)
Helen Keller
Mark Twain
Thomas Edison
Here's a list of some god fearing folks:
Adolf Hitler
Jim Jones
Most early corrupt popes
For your information, 48% of the world's population are atheist's using
the guidleine that they don't believe in the christian god. The 52%
that do believe in god can't figure out which god to believe in and
contend that their religion is the "true" religion.
Tom
"IKnowHimDoYou- A." <IKno...@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IKnowHim-150...@pm8-41.kalama.com...
Yes and the term 'shit for brains' gives new meaning to your name of
"IDon'tKnowShit".
icono
"AR" <ari...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118851993....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> This type of post just displays your own ignorance. Here's a list of
> some "scatter brain" atheists:
>
> Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein stated very clearly that one cannot observe the universe and
all that is in it without concluding that it was specifically designed by an
entity.
Sagan, brain? He was a fiction writer.
Of course your list of believers was purely those who didn't believe but
used religion as a con.
You have to do better than that.
There really are some prominent scientists and philosophers with scientific
knowledge who were at least agnostic.
Your religion doesn't recognize that.
cactus
Martin Willett
>
> 7) Jesus was a test for Jews: Judaism, unique among all of the world's
> major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its
> religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of
> "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah
> (Deut. 13:4).
>
No, it seems that Judaism is a uniquely racist and divisive religion
claiming superiority for one people with the "authority" of its own holy
books self-proclaimed holy status. With arrogance like that it is hardly
surprising that the Jews have become the biggest fist-magnets in human
history.
--
Martin Willett
El Bleacho
> This type of post just displays your own ignorance. Here's a list of
> some "scatter brain" atheists:
>
> Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein was not neccesarily an athiest - he just rejected a
"personal God". He could not understand how a personal god would allow the
suffering that went on, on this planet. And around the time of Hitler's
"Final Solution", I am sure most Jews wondered that. As such, you might
call him a bit of an agnostic. Below are some quotes about his beliefs,
and a link for you to from his book: Albert Einstein: The Human Side.
You may now carry on. :-)
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior
spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive
with our frail and feeble mind.." -- Albert Einstein (Physicist,
Mathmetician)
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain
it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the
fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving
after rational knowledge." -- Albert Einstein (Physicist, Mathmetician)
"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details." -- Albert Einstein
(Physicist, Mathmetician)
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings." -- Albert Einstein (Physicist, Mathmetician)
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." --
Albert Einstein (Physicist, Mathmetician)
"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates
empirically." -- Albert Einstein (Physicist, Mathmetician)
"Everything is determined by forces over which we have no control. It is
determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables,
or cosmic dust - we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance
by an invisible piper." -- Albert Einstein (Physicist, Mathmetician)
Albert Einstein: The Human Side
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einprayr.htm
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
AR
"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but
have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
world so far as our science can reveal it."
You also seemed to forget that Sagna was also an American astronomer
and producer of the Cosmos TV program that put outer space in your
living room.
Would you like a list of alleged believers that used religion as a con.
Start with the early popes that poured cruelty on mankind in the name
of god. Makes you want to barf.
"There really are some prominent scientists and philosophers with
scientific knowledge who were at least agnostic." And I agree with
that.
However, you seemed to have missed the point. There are "scatter brain"
atheists just as there are "scatter brain" christains. Not not all
atheists are scatter brained nor are all christians are scatter
brained.
El Bleacho
> No, it seems that Judaism is a uniquely racist and divisive religion
> claiming superiority for one people with the "authority" of its own
> holy books self-proclaimed holy status. With arrogance like that it
> is hardly surprising that the Jews have become the biggest
> fist-magnets in human history.
"Uniquely racist"? "Fist-magnet"? Judaism is different than Islam or
Christianity in proclaiming itself the true religion? Unless you say
something otherwise, I can only assume you to be a frothing anti-Semite.
And I am not trying to reduce this to Godwin's Law; but I cannot imagine
anyone who is such an idiot as to say the things you did out of sheer
ignorance. You pondered and meditated an apparent hatred towards Jews, and
reduced your perverse anger to what is quoted above.
Therion Ware
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:09:56 GMT in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, El Bleacho ("El Bleacho"
<ElBl...@Clorox.gov>) said, directing the reply to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
>AR wrote:
>> This type of post just displays your own ignorance. Here's a list of
>> some "scatter brain" atheists:
>>
>> Albert Einstein
>
>
>Albert Einstein was not neccesarily an athiest - he just rejected a
>"personal God". He could not understand how a personal god would allow the
>suffering that went on, on this planet. And around the time of Hitler's
>"Final Solution", I am sure most Jews wondered that. As such, you might
>call him a bit of an agnostic. Below are some quotes about his beliefs,
>and a link for you to from his book: Albert Einstein: The Human Side.
>
> You may now carry on. :-)
Hummmmmm.... haven't seen this argument in a long time <sigh>. So I'll
see your agnostic and raise you a Spinozian pantheist.
El Bleacho
> "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but
> have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
> religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
> world so far as our science can reveal it."
Einstein was definitely against a "personal god". He could not imagine a
religion that would allow the suffering that he and his fellow Jews
experience in WW II.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
It is the second part of the quote that reveals the reason Einstein rejected
the existence of a personal God. Einstein compared the remarkable design and
order of the cosmos and could not reconcile those characteristics with the
evil and suffering he found in human existence. How could an all-powerful
God allow the suffering that exists on earth?
> You also seemed to forget that Sagna was also an American astronomer
> and producer of the Cosmos TV program that put outer space in your
> living room.
I don't know why that guy slammed Sagan; but I always thought Carl was a
well respected astronomer. I loved his shows, and loved his book
"Billions". He wrote it after he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, you
know. In the book, he said he refiused to pray to any god to save his
life; but did not mind if his friends prayed. He loved his friends and
hoped it made them feel better.
> Would you like a list of alleged believers that used religion as a
> con. Start with the early popes that poured cruelty on mankind in the
> name of god. Makes you want to barf.
I totally agree there! Start the list with Hitler, the Crusades, and a
host of other democides and genocides based on religion. But, IMHO
Intelligent Design + Creator <> organized religion followed by humans.
> "There really are some prominent scientists and philosophers with
> scientific knowledge who were at least agnostic." And I agree with
> that.
Me too.
>
> However, you seemed to have missed the point. There are "scatter
> brain" atheists just as there are "scatter brain" christains. Not
> not all atheists are scatter brained nor are all christians are
> scatter brained.
IAWTP!
AR
AR
with cancer. Interesting.
I also loved his shows. I must have watched them a gazillion times.
El Bleacho
> I didn't know he started the book "Billions" after he was diagnosed
> with cancer. Interesting.
Great book. And he also made it a point to say he never said "billions and
billions". Said that Saturday Night Live came up with that one. And I
could have sworn I had heard him do that quote. He spent his last chapter
or so talking about the cancer, it's affect on his wife and family, and
how his friends would pray for him. He also covered abortion and some
other things that were dear to his heart. They published it after he died.
He had some sort of blood cancer and only made it about 2 years from
diagnosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
The compilation Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the End
of the Millennium, published after Sagan's death, contains essays written by
Sagan, such as his views on abortion, and Ann Druyan's account of his death
as a non-believer.
> I also loved his shows. I must have watched them a gazillion times.
The loss of Sagan was a big one for astronomy. His list of
accomplishments is breathtaking.
Awards and medals
Apollo Achievement Award - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Chicken Little Honorable Mention - 1991 - National Anxiety Center
Distinguished Public Service - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Emmy - Outstanding individual achievement - 1981 - PBS series Cosmos
Emmy - Outstanding Informational Series - 1981 - PBS series Cosmos
Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal - National Aeronautics and Space
Administration
Helen Caldicott Leadership Award - Women's Action for Nuclear Disarmament
Homer Award - 1997 - Contact
Hugo Award - 1998 - Contact
Hugo Award - 1981 - Cosmos
Hugo Award - 1997 - The Demon-Haunted World
Humanist of the Year - 1981 - awarded by the American Humanist Association
In Praise of Reason Award - 1987 - Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
Isaac Asimov Award - 1994 - Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
Claims of the Paranormal
John F. Kennedy Astronautics Award - American Astronautical Society
John W. Campbell Memorial Award - 1974 - The Cosmic Connection
Klumpke-Roberts Award of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific - 1974
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky Medal - Soviet Cosmonauts Federation
Locus Poll Award 1986 - Contact
Lowell Thomas Award - Explorers Club - 75th Anniversary
Masursky Award - American Astronomical Society
Peabody - 1980 - PBS series Cosmos
Public Welfare Medal - 1994 - National Academy of Sciences
Pulitzer Prize for Literature - 1978 - The Dragons of Eden
SF Chronicle Award - 1998 - Contact
Carl Sagan Memorial Award - Named in his honor
Named 99th "Greatest American" on the June 5th, 2005 "Greatest American"
show on the Discovery Channel.
El Bleacho
> OK, I am convinced. I will put him on the agnostic list.
Who, Einstein? Make a list called spiritual, and put him on that one. He
believed in God, just not one that was defined by religion. I would call
that spiritual, not agnostic. Just MHO, of course.
Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig
> Atheist's Brains
As we clearly see, I-know-SHIT is not only running out of ideas (well, duh -
as if it ever had some), but also out of stuff to copy'n'paste. Instead, it
has to try and be creative... with the usual ludicrous results.
--
Regards
Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig
icono
> Einstein also said the following:
>
> "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but
> have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
> religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
> world so far as our science can reveal it."
Not an atheist.
>
> You also seemed to forget that Sagna was also an American astronomer
> and producer of the Cosmos TV program that put outer space in your
> living room.
Still mostly science fiction and the work of a good writer, not an expert in
science.
>
> Would you like a list of alleged believers that used religion as a con.
> Start with the early popes that poured cruelty on mankind in the name
> of god. Makes you want to barf.
I already know them, probably more than yourself. So?
>
>
> "There really are some prominent scientists and philosophers with
> scientific knowledge who were at least agnostic." And I agree with
> that.
>
> However, you seemed to have missed the point. There are "scatter brain"
> atheists just as there are "scatter brain" christains. Not not all
> atheists are scatter brained nor are all christians are scatter
> brained.
>
O.K.
El Bleacho
>> <snip comments about Dr. Carl Sagan>
>
> Still mostly science fiction and the work of a good writer, not an
> expert in science.
Not an expert in science?!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!??!?! He taught
Physics and directed labs for decades at Harvard and Cornell, and spent
more than a decade working for NASA. His writing and television was at the
*END* of his career; after being established as one of the great physicists
of his generation.
Education and scientific career
Sagan attended the University of Chicago, where he received a bachelor's
degree (1955) and a master's degree (1956) in physics, before earning his
doctorate (1960) in astronomy and astrophysics. He taught at Harvard
University until 1968, when he moved to Cornell University. Sagan became a
full professor at Cornell in 1971 and directed a lab there. He contributed
to most of the unmanned space missions that explored our solar system.
Scientific Awards
Apollo Achievement Award - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Distinguished Public Service - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
John F. Kennedy Astronautics Award - American Astronautical Society
Klumpke-Roberts Award of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific - 1974
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky Medal - Soviet Cosmonauts Federation
Masursky Award - American Astronomical Society
Public Welfare Medal - 1994 - National Academy of Sciences
--
Mary Walker
> This type of post just displays your own ignorance. Here's a list of
> some "scatter brain" atheists:
>
> Albert Einstein
> Andrew Carnegie
> Carl Sagan
> Ernest Hemingway
> John Adams (President)
> Helen Keller
> Mark Twain
> Thomas Edison
>
> Here's a list of some god fearing folks:
>
> Adolf Hitler
> Jim Jones
> Most early corrupt popes
>
Vlad the Impaler
Ivan the Terrible
The Grand Inquisitor (spanish inquisition guy)
Henry VIII (had lots of people beheaded and tortured)
... there are many, many more throughout history.
Religion is a bad thing - history has proved time and time again that it
serves to divide communities/countries/nations.
AR
library tomorrow.
Wish I could have met him in person. He came across as such a caring
person.
Tom
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:Iw0se.3859$on5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Icono has never let the facts deter him from his preconceived opinion yet,
and I don't think he will be capable of it in the future!
AR
Not a christain either
"Still mostly science fiction and the work of a good writer, not an
expert in
science. "
Guess when they said "brains" you heard "trains". Yea, it's a old one
but you deserve it.
"already know them, probably more than yourself. So? "
So? Want to have a list contest?
El Bleacho
> I have read a number of his books but not "Billions". Off to the
> library tomorrow.
Have you trolled around online to see if there is a Microsoft Reader version
of the book for free? I have all of Einstein's works, some of Feynman's,
some Hawking, Penrose, and some others. I found a bunch of online
libraries, and also have found books using LimeWire and WinMX (P2P
programs).
> Wish I could have met him in person. He came across as such a caring
> person.
I agree. And he was totally accessible for a long time. Until the very end
he lived in Upstate NY and folks could contact and visit him.
bob young
"IKnowHimDoYou- A." wrote:
Atheists exist
Your god does not
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is
freedom. Atheism is human concern, and intellectual honesty
to a degree that the religious mind cannot begin to
understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact
it is not, and never has been, a religion at all. The
definition of Atheism is magnificent in its simplicity:
Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
Martin Willett
A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special and
expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from it. Any
criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of Satanic origin?)
they label anti-Semitism.
Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God crap.
They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and them with
their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was jealous of
didn't exist) on their side.
To say "we are the chosen people, God treats us as special, only one god
exists and he is on our side" is asking for trouble. To expect the rest
of the world to simply meekly agree with them without feeling in any way
bitter or resentful is utter madness. To live surrounded by other people
and keep yourselves to yourself and call everybody outside your group by
a word that you expect even those people to wear and use of themselves
without comment is truly bizarre. Gentile. Think about it. It means, in
effect, inferior outsiders. And Jews expect the inferior outsiders to be
happy with that description!
If God has chosen the Jews how can the gentiles be anything other than
inferior outsiders? You don't need to be paranoid when they are out to
get you.
Christianity and Islam are different in that while they claim a monopoly
on truth they don't regard people as born special, they are not racist
by nature in the way that Judaism is (with the possible exception of
their attitudes to Jews, but the status of Jews vis a vis God requires a
special stance). To a Christian a Jew who becomes a Christian is no
longer a Jew. They do group the world into us and them but they don't
define "us" by blood. Jews do. So do the Romany. They too keep
themselves to themselves and look down on outsiders. It is a pattern of
behaviour that invites (expects and succeeds in generating) distrust,
hatred and retribution.
It is one thing to tolerate people with different religious practices
and beliefs that do not affect outsiders. It is quite another to expect
to be tolerated while being intolerant, smug and superior.
Hating Jews is wrong. But explaining why people have taken to hating the
Jews is not of itself hating the Jews. Explanation is not justification.
I don't hate the Jews, I'm an atheist, I laugh off their claims of
special status, I don't have to work it into my belief system.
Christians and Muslims do. Anybody who believes in the God of Abraham
has to have a theory about the Jews and accord them a special status of
some kind. To me it's simple, as there are no gods there is no special
Tribe of the One True God. It's not a theological issue it's sociology.
I have no recipe for a happy future. I wouldn't start from here. I can't
see a tightly knit group such as the Jews ever giving up or
transforming their religion. As that will not happen neither will
"anti-Semitism", organized, casual or imagined, ever go away.
Clover
IKno...@leavingsoon.com (IKnowHimDoYou- A.) wrote:
> Atheist's Brains
>
> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
>
> They are the result of a big bang-
>
> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
>
> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
And your intellect gives new meaning to the term Black Hole
icono
> "Not an atheist."
>
> Not a christain either
So?
The list was supposedly of non-theists.
>
> "Still mostly science fiction and the work of a good writer, not an
> expert in
> science. "
>
> Guess when they said "brains" you heard "trains". Yea, it's a old one
> but you deserve it.
For the science fiction entusiast, he was great.
He, like the author of The DaVinci code, had a nack for including MUCH truth
around the fiction. He never refused a speaking engagement where he could
engage the minds of the non-scientists.
>
> "already know them, probably more than yourself. So? "
>
> So? Want to have a list contest?
>
I asked you first.
First clue, number one with some logical capabilities, French.
Don't let you atheist religion get in the way of what a theist vs.
non-theist is.
El Bleacho
> "Not an atheist."
>
> Not a christain either
>
I am having a hard time following who you are talking to. Can you leave
some of the old threads in when you reply. TIA.
El Bleacho
> "IKnowHimDoYou- A." wrote:
>
>> Atheist's Brains
>>
>> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
>>
>> They are the result of a big bang-
>>
>> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
>>
>> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
>
> Atheists exist
> Your god does not
Much as neither of us believe his god exists; neither of us can prove him
wrong.
El Bleacho
> A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special and
> expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from it. Any
> criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of Satanic
> origin?) they label anti-Semitism.
No, your hatred of all Jews is why you are labeled and anti-Semite.
> Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God crap.
> They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and them
> with their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was
> jealous of didn't exist) on their side.
Dividing the world, anti-Semite? Care to show me this divided world? Last
I checked, USA has the most Jews and they are a small minority. Second
comes to Israel, who has a large Arab population that votes for their
non-Jewish choices of law, and has 5 Islam-only parties in the Knesset.
> To say "we are the chosen people, God treats us as special, only one
> god exists and he is on our side" is asking for trouble.
No, anti-Semite; that is called "religion".
> To expect
> the rest of the world to simply meekly agree with them without
> feeling in any way bitter or resentful is utter madness. To live
> surrounded by other people and keep yourselves to yourself and call
> everybody outside your group by a word that you expect even those
> people to wear and use of themselves without comment is truly
> bizarre. Gentile. Think about it. It means, in effect, inferior
> outsiders. And Jews expect the inferior outsiders to be happy with
> that description!
No, the Jews just expect you to keep your KKK hood and a burning cross off
their lawn, you frothing anti-Semite.
> If God has chosen the Jews how can the gentiles be anything other than
> inferior outsiders? You don't need to be paranoid when they are out to
> get you.
Well, anti-Semite; all religions think they are the true one. And all
religions allow conversion to/from their religion.
> Christianity and Islam are different in that while they claim a
> monopoly on truth they don't regard people as born special, they are
> not racist by nature in the way that Judaism is (with the possible
> exception of their attitudes to Jews, but the status of Jews vis a
> vis God requires a special stance). To a Christian a Jew who becomes
> a Christian is no longer a Jew. They do group the world into us and
> them but they don't define "us" by blood. Jews do. So do the Romany.
> They too keep themselves to themselves and look down on outsiders. It
> is a pattern of behaviour that invites (expects and succeeds in
> generating) distrust, hatred and retribution.
You are not only an anti-Semite; but an idiotic one at that. You are the
only anti-Semite on the planet that does not know that Christians believe
you have to be "born again" to go to heaven (John 3:16), and that Muslims
think you have to be Muslim to go to heaven ( Koran 9:5, Koran 98:6 Koran
9:29).
> Hating Jews is wrong.
Then why do you spend your entire days and evenings talking about how much
you hate them, anti-Semite?
> But explaining why people have taken to hating
> the Jews is not of itself hating the Jews. Explanation is not
> justification. I don't hate the Jews, I'm an atheist, I laugh off
> their claims of special status, I don't have to work it into my
> belief system.
For someone with no skin in the game, you sure area frothing anti-Semite.
> I have no recipe for a happy future. I wouldn't start from here. I
> can't see a tightly knit group such as the Jews ever giving up or
> transforming their religion. As that will not happen neither will
> "anti-Semitism", organized, casual or imagined, ever go away.
Of course anti-Semitism won't go away when frothing anti-Semites like you
come to usenet for the sole purpose of insulting Judaism.
cactus
<snip>
> A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special and
> expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from it. Any
> criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of Satanic origin?)
> they label anti-Semitism.
As I will show below, we have a covenant, a legal agreement with G-d.
Most of the other baggage has been effaced by time, except in the minds
of antisemites and those who do not understand.
>
> Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God crap.
> They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and them with
> their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was jealous of
> didn't exist) on their side.
This was typical of the time. Similar attitudes persist in Africa to
this day. Note that we also started a number of ethical innovations that
underlie much of western law, including the requirement for fair dealing
with everyone, more women's rights than were common at the time, limits
on feuds (an eye for an eye was actually progressive at the time) etc.
>
> To say "we are the chosen people, God treats us as special, only one god
> exists and he is on our side" is asking for trouble.
That worked up to a point, which is long past, and has pretty much been
abandoned, except by anti-Jews and the ignorant.
To expect the rest
> of the world to simply meekly agree with them without feeling in any way
> bitter or resentful is utter madness.
Ethnic separation breeds hatred and contempt - look at tribalism in
Africa for example. But Jews have lived with others, at least in Europe
since the Enlightenment. You'd think that the historical baggage would
be gone at this point, but sadly it isn't.
To live surrounded by other people
> and keep yourselves to yourself and call everybody outside your group by
> a word that you expect even those people to wear and use of themselves
> without comment is truly bizarre.
Oh come on. The Native American tribes do the same, making strict
divisions between themselves and others. They at least are more
accepting than the African tribes who conduct religious pogroms and
genocides with awful regularity.
And you know as well as I do that members of all different faiths, and
sects of faiths, try to keep intermarriage with others to a minimum. Not
just religions either - many states in the USA had laws against
miscegenation (interracial marriage) until approximately 30 years ago.
Gentile. Think about it. It means, in
> effect, inferior outsiders. And Jews expect the inferior outsiders to be
> happy with that description!
No different, as I have said several times already. Any alleged
inferiority is long gone.
>
> If God has chosen the Jews how can the gentiles be anything other than
> inferior outsiders? You don't need to be paranoid when they are out to
> get you.
This is not true. As discussed below, we are biblically commanded to
treat everyone fairly, have a set of rules that anyone can follow for a
place in the World to Come, and follow a Covenant that is essentially a
legal agreement between lord and vassal that imposed requirements on
each party.
>
> Christianity and Islam are different in that while they claim a monopoly
> on truth they don't regard people as born special, they are not racist
> by nature in the way that Judaism is (with the possible exception of
> their attitudes to Jews, but the status of Jews vis a vis God requires a
> special stance).
Many of them are racist in their views, not just of Judaism, but anyone
who doesn't believe as they do. Or they believe in racial differences.
Those are a decreasing minority since the Nazis discredited that
worldview. But look at the tribes in Africa, who carry on vicious
genocides against one another.
To a Christian a Jew who becomes a Christian is no
> longer a Jew.
Unfortunately this isn't true all the time. We have examples in this
newsgroup. jw considers all modern Jews to be apostates because he
believes that all the "real" ones accepted Jesus. The so-called "Jews
for Jesus" are Christians who slander Judaism by claiming that they are
"completed" Jews through their worship of Jesus of Nazareth. The do
this despite the fact that they violate Judaism's requirement by doing so.
I found out recently that a Jew who coverts to another religion is no
longer religiously Jewish, but remains Jewish by blood. It's the
religion that determines rights and responsibilities such as the mitzvot
and the right to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.
And a proselyte is accepted as a Jew as though descended from Abraham
and Sarah.
They do group the world into us and them but they don't
> define "us" by blood. Jews do. So do the Romany. They too keep
> themselves to themselves and look down on outsiders. It is a pattern of
> behaviour that invites (expects and succeeds in generating) distrust,
> hatred and retribution.
There has always been a distrust of "strangers." We have the
requirement to treat everyone fairly, early territorial imperatives
aside of course. And what group didn't have those? You can add to the
mistrust the Russian mistrust of the Mongols after what happened 800
years ago.
>
> It is one thing to tolerate people with different religious practices
> and beliefs that do not affect outsiders. It is quite another to expect
> to be tolerated while being intolerant, smug and superior.
I think you need to look a bit more deeply at Judaism in this regard.
First of all the commands in Torah are to accept non-Jews and to deal
fairly with them. I could cite chapter and verse were you interested.
Second, as far as Judaism is concerned, anyone who follows the Noachide
Laws has a place in the World to Come. They are pretty basic, check them
out sometime.
Third, you share a very common misunderstanding about the Covenant given
at Sinai. This was a legal agreement, couched in the language of the
time, between a vassal and a lord. All that it did was impose mutual
duties and benefits upon the parties. Jews were basically required to
love G-d, and G-d in return would take care of them. There has been
some question as to how good a job G-d did, but we have adhered to the
Covenant as best we could.
>
> Hating Jews is wrong. But explaining why people have taken to hating the
> Jews is not of itself hating the Jews. Explanation is not justification.
> I don't hate the Jews, I'm an atheist, I laugh off their claims of
> special status, I don't have to work it into my belief system.
> Christians and Muslims do.
Not all do. And atheism doesn't have such a good record. The Nazis and
the Stalinist Soviets have terrible records. Some of both were theists,
but the official religions were atheistic in nature.
Anybody who believes in the God of Abraham
> has to have a theory about the Jews and accord them a special status of
> some kind. To me it's simple, as there are no gods there is no special
> Tribe of the One True God. It's not a theological issue it's sociology.
>
> I have no recipe for a happy future. I wouldn't start from here. I can't
> see a tightly knit group such as the Jews ever giving up or
> transforming their religion.
That's because you are an outsider. Judaism has transformed itself a
number of times. Here are some examples.
We abandoned animal sacrifice when the Second Temple was destroyed,
developing substitutions for them.
Jewish Law (Halacha) undergoes a steady evolution as changes in
circumstances require. Capital punishment is a classic example of this,
being a part of Tanach, disappearing in Talmudic times, reappearing in
the Middle Ages in response to threats to the community, then
disappearing again after those threats disappeared.
We shucked biblical literalism over 700 years ago when we realized that
evil was befalling us no matter what we did. That puts us way ahead of
the Fundamentalist literalists.
Judaism has split into a number of movements since the 15th century. A
quick reckoning puts the number at around 9, primarily in response to
world events, such as the Enlightenment. Many of these changes are
represented in the modern liturgy, but I won't bore you.
BTW, The Dalai Lama recently met with a delegation of Jews to discuss
how to carry on his religion in the diaspora imposed on him and his
people by the Communist Chinese. He figured if we could do it, so could
he. The story is documented in "The Jew in the Lotus" by Roger Kamenetz.
As that will not happen neither will
> "anti-Semitism", organized, casual or imagined, ever go away.
Whether it goes away or not is more up to you and others like you than
us at this point. We have advanced considerably since Biblical times,
and it's up to you all to catch up.
If you would like backup for what I have said here I would be happy to
provide it. All I ask is that you think about what I've said here.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special and
>>expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from it. Any
>>criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of Satanic
>>origin?) they label anti-Semitism.
>
>
> No, your hatred of all Jews is why you are labeled and anti-Semite.
That is a crude and dumb libel.
>
>
>>Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God crap.
>>They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and them
>>with their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was
>>jealous of didn't exist) on their side.
>
>
> Dividing the world, anti-Semite? Care to show me this divided world? Last
> I checked, USA has the most Jews and they are a small minority. Second
> comes to Israel, who has a large Arab population that votes for their
> non-Jewish choices of law, and has 5 Islam-only parties in the Knesset.
>
>
Irrelevent.
Jews divide the world into Jews (God's chosen people) and Gentiles (the
people God didn't choose). Is that too difficult for you to understand?
Jews divide the world into Jews and gentiles, us and them. Why did you
make the knee jerk (emphasis on the jerk) reaction and assume I was
suggesting Jews are the source of all division in the world? That is
farcical.
>
>>To say "we are the chosen people, God treats us as special, only one
>>god exists and he is on our side" is asking for trouble.
>
>
> No, anti-Semite; that is called "religion".
>
Calling me an anti-Semite is a lie that discredits you and your lack of
imagination, not me.
Calling it religion doesn't change anything. It is an idea that is
inherently prejudiced and likely to cause offence. Calling it a
religious idea apparently does make it immune to criticism on some
people's definition but not mine. I don't have a religion to defend so I
don't have to take part in the charade of reciprocal tolerance of
intolerance.
Calling all critics of your religion anti-Semites is a crude tactic and
it isn't going to work. I am not going to be silenced. I don't hate
Jews, I have cricisms of Judaism (and also of Zionism and Israeli
policy) there is an enormous difference.
The painting of all criticisms of Judaism, Zionism and the actions of
Jews as being motivated by anti-Semitism is an evil lie that is not made
true by being a big lie nor by being repeated.
>
>>To expect
>>the rest of the world to simply meekly agree with them without
>>feeling in any way bitter or resentful is utter madness. To live
>>surrounded by other people and keep yourselves to yourself and call
>>everybody outside your group by a word that you expect even those
>>people to wear and use of themselves without comment is truly
>>bizarre. Gentile. Think about it. It means, in effect, inferior
>>outsiders. And Jews expect the inferior outsiders to be happy with
>>that description!
>
>
>
> No, the Jews just expect you to keep your KKK hood and a burning cross off
> their lawn, you frothing anti-Semite.
Why would an educated liberal English atheist have anything to do with
the bloody KKK? Ignorant redneck retards.
>
>>If God has chosen the Jews how can the gentiles be anything other than
>>inferior outsiders? You don't need to be paranoid when they are out to
>>get you.
>
>
> Well, anti-Semite; all religions think they are the true one. And all
> religions allow conversion to/from their religion.
But Jews are Jews by being born Jews. They are "God's chosen people"
whether they think they are or not. That is the difference. Plus Jews
are not big on converting people while being very touchy about marrying out.
Of course all religions think they are right, and somehow all religious
people manage to consider that they are not deceived by false faith and
charlatanry as the others are.
>
>
>
>>Christianity and Islam are different in that while they claim a
>>monopoly on truth they don't regard people as born special, they are
>>not racist by nature in the way that Judaism is (with the possible
>>exception of their attitudes to Jews, but the status of Jews vis a
>>vis God requires a special stance). To a Christian a Jew who becomes
>>a Christian is no longer a Jew. They do group the world into us and
>>them but they don't define "us" by blood. Jews do. So do the Romany.
>>They too keep themselves to themselves and look down on outsiders. It
>>is a pattern of behaviour that invites (expects and succeeds in
>>generating) distrust, hatred and retribution.
>
>
> You are not only an anti-Semite; but an idiotic one at that. You are the
> only anti-Semite on the planet that does not know that Christians believe
> you have to be "born again" to go to heaven (John 3:16), and that Muslims
> think you have to be Muslim to go to heaven ( Koran 9:5, Koran 98:6 Koran
> 9:29).
>
Did I mention going to heaven? Do you ever use your brain for more than
warming the inside of your yarmulke?
>>Hating Jews is wrong.
>
>
> Then why do you spend your entire days and evenings talking about how much
> you hate them, anti-Semite?
Grow up and do some fucking homework. My entire days and evenings
talking about Jews? Who do you think I am? My signature contains my real
name and a link to my website. There are 577 pages on it. 37 of those
pages contain the word Jew: check them out, see how much hatred you
won't find. 12 pages have been written by a Jew. More than 20 pages have
been written by a former Muslim.
I run a debate forum with hundreds of members, hardly any of them are
racist. I do allow free discussion of any subjects, no issue is taboo.
"Martin Willett" yields 7,650 hits on Google Groups, with another 269
for Martin J Willett.
Searching for "Martin Willett" + religion yields 3,260
searching for "Martin Willett" + god yields 1,990
searching for "Martin Willett" + gods yields 1,900
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Christians yields 1,460
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Christian yields 1,230
Searching for "Martin Willett" + atheism yields 1,180
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Jesus yields 696
Searching for "Martin Willett" + faith yields 506
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Bible yields 474
Searching for "Martin Willett" + atheist yields 435
Searching for "Martin Willett" + spirit yields 286
Searching for "Martin Willett" + atheists yields 285
Searching for "Martin Willett" + smite yields 282
Searching for "Martin Willett" + prayer yields 280
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Hell yields 260
Searching for "Martin Willett" + heaven yields 214
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Jews yields 125
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Jewish yields 93
Searching for "Martin Willett" + Jew yields 54
And you dismiss me as an unthinking anti-Semite spending my "entire days
and evenings" talking about how much I hate Jews. That is both dead
wrong and libellous.
Criticising Judaism does not make people anti-Semites, or racists or
Nazis. And *mentioning it* doesn't make a person obsessed.
If there is somebody around here obsessed with anti-Semitism it is not me.
bob young
El Bleacho wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > "IKnowHimDoYou- A." wrote:
> >
> >> Atheist's Brains
> >>
> >> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
> >>
> >> They are the result of a big bang-
> >>
> >> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
> >>
> >> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
> >
> > Atheists exist
> > Your god does not
>
> Much as neither of us believe his god exists; neither of us can prove him
> wrong.
I suppose it is a question of whether either one of us, or anyone else for
that matter, needs proof
Fritzz
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
> IKnowHimDoYou- A. wrote:
>> Atheist's Brains
>>
>> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
>>
>> They are the result of a big bang-
>>
>> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
>>
>> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
>
> violated
> God's commandments and God's word? Please defend the following points:
It is simple - Christ is God. When the Father creates, the Word and the
Paraclete create. We the Word redeems, the Father and the Paraclete redeem.
When the Paraclete santifies, the Father and the Word santify. He is one
God, not three. Much of what you wish answers will come to pass soon
enough.
> 1) Jesus did not build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
>
> 2) Jesus did not gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah
> 43:5-6).
>
> 3) Jesus did not usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred,
> oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up
> sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
>
> 4) Jesus did not spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which
> will
> unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world --
> on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
>
> 5) Jesus violated Torah: The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full
> Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain
> binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately
> identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
>
> 6) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states
> that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16,
> Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a
> paste
> in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He
> does not observe Shabbat!"
>
> 7) Jesus was a test for Jews: Judaism, unique among all of the world's
> major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for
> its
> religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of
> "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah
> (Deut. 13:4).
>
> 8) Jesus existance as Son of Man violated Old Testament as follows: The
> Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The
> Father,
> the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
> Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel,
> the
> Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every
> day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand
> and
> head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a
> Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew
> dies.
>
> 9) Jesus violated the Ten Commandments: In Judaism, prayer is a totally
> private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God
> is
> near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten
> Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that
> it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see
> Maimonides -
> Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
>
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>> A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special
>>> and expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from
>>> it. Any criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of
>>> Satanic origin?) they label anti-Semitism.
>>
>>
>> No, your hatred of all Jews is why you are labeled and anti-Semite.
>
> That is a crude and dumb libel.
Not when it's true. And you are a frothing anti-Semite.
>>> Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God
>>> crap. They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and
>>> them with their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was
>>> jealous of didn't exist) on their side.
>>
>>
>> Dividing the world, anti-Semite? Care to show me this divided
>> world? Last I checked, USA has the most Jews and they are a small
>> minority. Second comes to Israel, who has a large Arab population
>> that votes for their non-Jewish choices of law, and has 5
>> Islam-only parties in the Knesset.
>
> Irrelevent.
No. You are irrelevant. You are powerless anti-Semite. I do not fear you,
nor should any other Jew. You are all talk; foaming Jew hater.
> Calling me an anti-Semite is a lie that discredits you and your lack
> of imagination, not me.
Hardly, anti-Semite. I need no imagination to out you for what you truly
are - I am not looking to insult you. I am stating a black and white fact.
You are an anti-Semite.
>I have cricisms of Judaism (and also of Zionism and Israeli
> policy) there is an enormous difference.
>
> The painting of all criticisms of Judaism, Zionism and the actions of
> Jews as being motivated by anti-Semitism is an evil lie that is not
> made true by being a big lie nor by being repeated.
Even the greatest man of the last generation says you are an anti-Semite.
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking
anti-Semitism." -- Martin Luther King Jr. 1968 Harvard University
[ from "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel" by Seymour
Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969],
> Why would an educated liberal English atheist have anything to do with
> the bloody KKK? Ignorant redneck retards.
You are hardly educated. Educated people are not anti-Semites; like you
are.
> Did I mention going to heaven? Do you ever use your brain for more
> than warming the inside of your yarmulke?
More anti-Semitic spew noted.
> And you dismiss me as an unthinking anti-Semite spending my "entire
> days and evenings" talking about how much I hate Jews. That is both
> dead wrong and libellous.
It is dead on accurate, and 100% true, anti-Semite.
> If there is somebody around here obsessed with anti-Semitism it is
> not me.
Take your meds. You are having a psychotic episode; and think you are
someone else, Jew hater.
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>
>> bob young wrote:
>>> "IKnowHimDoYou- A." wrote:
>>>
>>>> Atheist's Brains
>>>>
>>>> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
>>>>
>>>> They are the result of a big bang-
>>>>
>>>> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
>>>>
>>>> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
>>>
>>> Atheists exist
>>> Your god does not
>>
>> Much as neither of us believe his god exists; neither of us can
>> prove him wrong.
>
> I suppose it is a question of whether either one of us, or anyone
> else for that matter, needs proof
Completely true. As a scientist, I like to see empirical proof in my work.
As a reasonable and logical person, I elect to believe in Intelligent
Design. I just do not subscribe to organized religion, nor to athiesm. I
believe there are flaws in both camps.
El Bleacho
> It is simple - Christ is God. When the Father creates, the Word and
> the Paraclete create. We the Word redeems, the Father and the
> Paraclete redeem. When the Paraclete santifies, the Father and the
> Word santify. He is one God, not three. Much of what you wish
> answers will come to pass soon enough.
See below. Nowhere in the Old Testament did it say the messiah would come
and not fulfill prophesy. The Old Testament said he would do all the
things listed below.
--
bob young
El Bleacho wrote:
> bob young wrote:
> > El Bleacho wrote:
> >
> >> bob young wrote:
> >>> "IKnowHimDoYou- A." wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Atheist's Brains
> >>>>
> >>>> We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
> >>>>
> >>>> They are the result of a big bang-
> >>>>
> >>>> that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
> >>>>
> >>>> This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
> >>>
> >>> Atheists exist
> >>> Your god does not
> >>
> >> Much as neither of us believe his god exists; neither of us can
> >> prove him wrong.
> >
> > I suppose it is a question of whether either one of us, or anyone
> > else for that matter, needs proof
>
> Completely true. As a scientist, I like to see empirical proof in my work.
> As a reasonable and logical person, I elect to believe in Intelligent
> Design. I just do not subscribe to organized religion, nor to athiesm. I
> believe there are flaws in both camps.
Can't see any atheistic flaws other than should a young child lose it's mother
to an illness we can't tell the distaught child that her mother has gone to
heaven to sit with a god.
As for atheism, well:
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
>
>
AR
atheist.
icono
> Please point out in my messages where I specifically said I was an
> atheist.
>
A positive defense, not a transient defense, is a declaration. It borders
on "specifically"
Martin Willett
another message in this thread. I'm sorry for trespassing so much on
your precious time while I try to defend myself against your libel.
I am giving you one last chance to read and digest my posts before I
take this matter further. I will not stand idly by while I am being
libelled.
I am not anti-Semitic. I do not spend all my time talking about Jews. I
am not subscribed to any Jewish newsgroups, I dropped by
alt.religion.christianity and noticed the word atheist in the thread
title. You have attacked the wrong target. You have made a very grave
error. Your posts libel me, not some internet racist lunatic posting
under a false name. Your posts grossly libel me personally, a named
individual, unambiguously and repeatedly.
It is quite preposterous, absurd and fundamentally cowardly to paint any
form of criticism of Judaism and Zionism as being based on hatred of
Jews. I am not going to stand to be called an anti-Semite. It is
libellous and factually incorrect. I have no hatred for Jews. I have
said nothing that has not been said at various times by Jews.
I criticize Judaism and Zionism from an atheist standpoint. Judaism and
Zionism are deeply flawed by their inherent racism. Of course some
people who attack Judaism and Zionism do so because of their
pathological hatred of Jews, but not all. Many do so out of attitudes
that are the opposite of hateful, sectarian, racist or anti-Jewish. Many
who share the same reservations as me are Jewish. I cannot understand
the hatred of Jews, I have never understood it. I have never been
remotely concerned with any form of Jew-hating agenda. I have never been
abused by a Jew (except you) I have never felt threatened by a Jew and I
have never considered Jews to be sub-human, too clever by half or
hell-bound Christ killers. I pity and despise anti-Semites as being the
most pathetic of sad losers and have never been remotely interested in
their agenda. I'm far too bright to be an anti-Semite.
But having said all that I stand by my assertion that it is the notion
of being the only god's chosen people which has caused many of the
problems of hatred, fear and persecution that have been visited upon the
Jews. People resent being called inferior and cannot understand how
being "the unchosen" can be anything else but a badge of inferiority. If
Europe was dominated by Mithraism rather than Christianity things might
have been different. It is the fact that both Christians and Jews
recognize that each other are probably worshipping the same same god,
but in the (to them) wrong way that causes the problems. If they thought
they were worshipping a different god they probably wouldn't bother
about each other's beliefs at all, just like Hindus and Christians
regard each other largely with indifference, regardless of whoever was
the minority community. For Jews, Christians and Muslims things cannot
ever be that simple, to each of the three camps the others know the
right god so their different conclusions must stem from deliberate and
bloody-minded ignorance rather than the innocent variety. The existence
of Jews is a sore point for Christians and Muslims alike. They cannot
simply be dismissed as people who do not know the truth, if these people
are praying to the One True God and doing so in a different way they
must be wilfully ignoring His message.
People who have beliefs that are slightly different to your own but with
a lot of common themes are often the most hated. In Belfast nobody beats
up Jews until they find out whether they're Protestant Jews or Catholic
Jews and of course the parable of the Good Samaritan depends on the
baseline knowledge that everybody knew Jews distrusted the Samaritans
because they worshipped the right god in the wrong way.
Anti-Semitism has roots in religion and racism. I am not religious, I am
not racist and I do not hate Jews. How can I be anti-Semitic unless you
have changed the definition to cover anybody who expresses any criticism
of the beliefs or actions of any Jews or Jewish organization?
I don't do mealy-mouthed. I don't do politically correct. I say what I
mean and mean what I say. I don't mean what you find it convenient to
think I mean. I won't conform to your stereotype or pigeon hole just to
make it easier for you to dismiss my views.
El Bleacho
> I am giving you one last chance to read and digest my posts before I
> take this matter further. I will not stand idly by while I am being
> libelled.
I say you are anti-Semitic. If you don't like the rights I have with regard
to free speech, then overthrow the government and take them away from me.
Until then, I say you are anti-Semitic.
> I am not anti-Semitic. I do not spend all my time talking about Jews.
Liar. You have posted no less than a dozen posts just in the last week
disparaging Jews, Judaism, and Zion.
> I am not subscribed to any Jewish newsgroups, I dropped by
> alt.religion.christianity and noticed the word atheist in the thread
> title.
You are in soc.culture.israel; you anti-Semitic liar. SOC.CULTURE.ISRAEL,
you moron. Can you read that, idiot?!?!?!
> You have attacked the wrong target. You have made a very grave
> error. Your posts libel me, not some internet racist lunatic posting
> under a false name. Your posts grossly libel me personally, a named
> individual, unambiguously and repeatedly.
Stop your crying, you idiot. You are the one posting anti-Semitic posts in
soc.culture.israel. If you don't want to be called anti-Semitic; then stop
posting in an Israeli group about how horrible Judaism is and how evil
Zionism is.
> It is quite preposterous, absurd and fundamentally cowardly to paint
> any form of criticism of Judaism and Zionism as being based on hatred
> of Jews.
Another anti-Semitic comment noted.
> I am not going to stand to be called an anti-Semite.
As long as you keep posting anti-Semitic posts; I will be here to out you
for it.
> It is
> libellous and factually incorrect. I have no hatred for Jews. I have
> said nothing that has not been said at various times by Jews.
Your "he said it first so leave me alone" aproach is noted, anti-Semite.
> I criticize Judaism and Zionism from an atheist standpoint.
Well gee - that sure makes your anti-Semitic comments OK then. Your
contention that it is OK to be anti-Semitic as long as you are an athiest is
moronic.
> Judaism
> and Zionism are deeply flawed by their inherent racism.
Another anti-Semitic comment noted.
> I
> have never been abused by a Jew (except you)
Admission of abusing Jews noted.
> But having said all that I stand by my assertion that it is the notion
> of being the only god's chosen people which has caused many of the
> problems of hatred, fear and persecution that have been visited upon
> the Jews. People resent being called inferior and cannot understand
> how being "the unchosen" can be anything else but a badge of
> inferiority. If Europe was dominated by Mithraism rather than
> Christianity things might have been different. It is the fact that
> both Christians and Jews recognize that each other are probably
> worshipping the same same god, but in the (to them) wrong way that
> causes the problems. If they thought they were worshipping a
> different god they probably wouldn't bother about each other's
> beliefs at all, just like Hindus and Christians regard each other
> largely with indifference, regardless of whoever was the minority
> community. For Jews, Christians and Muslims things cannot ever be
> that simple, to each of the three camps the others know the right god
> so their different conclusions must stem from deliberate and
> bloody-minded ignorance rather than the innocent variety. The
> existence of Jews is a sore point for Christians and Muslims alike.
> They cannot simply be dismissed as people who do not know the truth,
> if these people are praying to the One True God and doing so in a
> different way they must be wilfully ignoring His message.
Anti-Semitic rant noted.
> Anti-Semitism has roots in religion and racism. I am not religious, I
> am not racist and I do not hate Jews. How can I be anti-Semitic
> unless you have changed the definition to cover anybody who expresses
> any criticism of the beliefs or actions of any Jews or Jewish
> organization?
You have criticized the religion and Zion, you anti-Semite.
> I don't do mealy-mouthed. I don't do politically correct. I say what I
> mean and mean what I say. I don't mean what you find it convenient to
> think I mean. I won't conform to your stereotype or pigeon hole just
> to make it easier for you to dismiss my views.
Since you are not Israeli or Jewish; get out of our soc.culture.israel
group, and take your anti-Semitic views with you.
cactus
> I noticed you posted your reply ONE MINUTE after posting a reply to
> another message in this thread. I'm sorry for trespassing so much on
> your precious time while I try to defend myself against your libel.
>
> I am giving you one last chance to read and digest my posts before I
> take this matter further. I will not stand idly by while I am being
> libelled.
>
> I am not anti-Semitic. I do not spend all my time talking about Jews. I
> am not subscribed to any Jewish newsgroups, I dropped by
> alt.religion.christianity and noticed the word atheist in the thread
> title. You have attacked the wrong target. You have made a very grave
> error. Your posts libel me, not some internet racist lunatic posting
> under a false name. Your posts grossly libel me personally, a named
> individual, unambiguously and repeatedly.
>
> It is quite preposterous, absurd and fundamentally cowardly to paint any
> form of criticism of Judaism and Zionism as being based on hatred of
> Jews. I am not going to stand to be called an anti-Semite. It is
> libellous and factually incorrect. I have no hatred for Jews. I have
> said nothing that has not been said at various times by Jews.
>
> I criticize Judaism and Zionism from an atheist standpoint.
This is not simple. First of all, an atheist would presumably have
similar criticisms for all religions, pretty much impartially. Is this
the case with you? Do you have the same criticisms of Christianity,
Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto and other
faiths?
Second, feel free to criticize Judaism on a religious basis, but Zionism
is a political movement: criticizing that might be better done
politically. There are some nasty people who use criticism of Zionism
as a proxy for antisemitism; you may not be one of those, but it's like
being in a drug house - guilt by association is easy to assume.
Judaism and
> Zionism are deeply flawed by their inherent racism.
Did you read my earlier response to you?
Biblical Judaism includes a strong element of imperialism and ethnic
cleansing during its early history, but even then there were the
commandments to treat all people fairly. Distinctions were made more on
the basis of religion; proselytes were (and are) accepted on an equal
basis. This is not racism - Judaism is not a race, it's a religion.
Jews have learned to our cost that intolerance toward any group is
intolerance to all groups. That's why Jewish lawyers with the ACLU
defended the free speech rights of neo-Nazis in Skokie, Illinois.
That's why nominally Jewish human rights organizations such as the
Anti-Defamation League defend the rights of Seventh-Day Adventists to
worship on days of their choice. Jews played prominent roles in the
Civil Rights movement of the 60s, marching and dying along with blacks.
This is racism?
Of course some
> people who attack Judaism and Zionism do so because of their
> pathological hatred of Jews, but not all.
Right.
Some also do it out of ignorance and misunderstanding.
Many do so out of attitudes
> that are the opposite of hateful, sectarian, racist or anti-Jewish. Many
> who share the same reservations as me are Jewish.
True.
I cannot understand
> the hatred of Jews, I have never understood it. I have never been
> remotely concerned with any form of Jew-hating agenda. I have never been
> abused by a Jew (except you) I have never felt threatened by a Jew and I
> have never considered Jews to be sub-human, too clever by half or
> hell-bound Christ killers. I pity and despise anti-Semites as being the
> most pathetic of sad losers and have never been remotely interested in
> their agenda.
I'm far too bright to be an anti-Semite.
No you aren't. There have been plenty of very smart ones, Goethe and T.
S. Eliot being good examples.
>
> But having said all that I stand by my assertion that it is the notion
> of being the only god's chosen people which has caused many of the
> problems of hatred, fear and persecution that have been visited upon the
> Jews. People resent being called inferior and cannot understand how
> being "the unchosen" can be anything else but a badge of inferiority.
You obviously didn't read my earlier post responding to you on this
point. Read it and get back to us.
If
> Europe was dominated by Mithraism rather than Christianity things might
> have been different.
If Islam had dominated it would have been different yet, and had the
Mongols maintained their hegemony it would have been different yet again.
It is the fact that both Christians and Jews
> recognize that each other are probably worshipping the same same god,
> but in the (to them) wrong way that causes the problems.
This is more a problem for Christians than Jews.
If they thought
> they were worshipping a different god they probably wouldn't bother
> about each other's beliefs at all, just like Hindus and Christians
> regard each other largely with indifference, regardless of whoever was
> the minority community. For Jews, Christians and Muslims things cannot
> ever be that simple, to each of the three camps the others know the
> right god so their different conclusions must stem from deliberate and
> bloody-minded ignorance rather than the innocent variety. The existence
> of Jews is a sore point for Christians and Muslims alike. They cannot
> simply be dismissed as people who do not know the truth, if these people
> are praying to the One True God and doing so in a different way they
> must be wilfully ignoring His message.
Muslims and Jews have done well together in the past; it's a few
fanatics on either side who have caused the problems.
>
> People who have beliefs that are slightly different to your own but with
> a lot of common themes are often the most hated. In Belfast nobody beats
> up Jews until they find out whether they're Protestant Jews or Catholic
> Jews and of course the parable of the Good Samaritan depends on the
> baseline knowledge that everybody knew Jews distrusted the Samaritans
> because they worshipped the right god in the wrong way.
>
> Anti-Semitism has roots in religion and racism. I am not religious, I am
> not racist and I do not hate Jews. How can I be anti-Semitic unless you
> have changed the definition to cover anybody who expresses any criticism
> of the beliefs or actions of any Jews or Jewish organization?
I suggest that you learn more about how things are now, and target your
ire more appropriately.
>
> I don't do mealy-mouthed. I don't do politically correct. I say what I
> mean and mean what I say. I don't mean what you find it convenient to
> think I mean. I won't conform to your stereotype or pigeon hole just to
> make it easier for you to dismiss my views.
I don't dismiss your views. As you point out, many share them. But if
you want to speak with moral authority, you need to learn more.
>
dsha...@hotmail.com
> A frothing anti-Semite? How typical. The Jews claim to be special and
> expect to be treated as special, but only when good comes from it.
Wrong.
>Any
> criticism of Jews must come from this well of evil (of Satanic origin?)
> they label anti-Semitism.
A majority of criticism of Jews does come from the well of evil called
antisemitism.
> Who started this? It was the Jews. They started the Tribe of God crap.
Evidence for any "Tribe of God crap"?
> They started the concept of dividing the world up into us and them with
> their god (who of course was the only one, the gods he was jealous of
> didn't exist) on their side.
Wrong again.
> To say "we are the chosen people, God treats us as special, only one god
> exists and he is on our side" is asking for trouble.
Take it up with Islamics; it's their claim, not any Jewish claim.
>To expect the rest
> of the world to simply meekly agree with them without feeling in any way
> bitter or resentful is utter madness. To live surrounded by other people
> and keep yourselves to yourself and call everybody outside your group by
> a word that you expect even those people to wear and use of themselves
> without comment is truly bizarre. Gentile. Think about it. It means, in
> effect, inferior outsiders. And Jews expect the inferior outsiders to be
> happy with that description!
Wrong again.
> If God has chosen the Jews how can the gentiles be anything other than
> inferior outsiders?
G-d "chose" Israel to receive and obey 613 commandments, "gentiles" are
expected to obey only seven. Care to join the ranks of the "chosen"?
>You don't need to be paranoid when they are out to get you.
> Christianity and Islam are different in that while they claim a monopoly
> on truth they don't regard people as born special, they are not racist
> by nature in the way that Judaism is (with the possible exception of
> their attitudes to Jews, but the status of Jews vis a vis God requires a
> special stance). To a Christian a Jew who becomes a Christian is no
> longer a Jew. They do group the world into us and them but they don't
> define "us" by blood. Jews do. So do the Romany. They too keep
> themselves to themselves and look down on outsiders. It is a pattern of
> behaviour that invites (expects and succeeds in generating) distrust,
> hatred and retribution.
The tenents of antisemtism.
> It is one thing to tolerate people with different religious practices
> and beliefs that do not affect outsiders. It is quite another to expect
> to be tolerated while being intolerant, smug and superior.
More antisemitism.
> Hating Jews is wrong. But explaining why people have taken to hating the
> Jews is not of itself hating the Jews. Explanation is not justification.
> I don't hate the Jews, I'm an atheist, I laugh off their claims of
> special status,
Highly doubtful.
>I don't have to work it into my belief system.
> Christians and Muslims do. Anybody who believes in the God of Abraham
> has to have a theory about the Jews and accord them a special status of
> some kind.
Which this poster has just done.
>To me it's simple, as there are no gods there is no special
> Tribe of the One True God. It's not a theological issue it's sociology.
Evidence for this "Tribe of the One True God" (outside Xianty and
Islam, that is)?
> I have no recipe for a happy future. I wouldn't start from here. I can't
> see a tightly knit group such as the Jews ever giving up or
> transforming their religion. As that will not happen neither will
> "anti-Semitism", organized, casual or imagined, ever go away.
> --
> Martin Willett
> http://mwillett.org
Not so long as people like Martin Willett are around to promulgate
antisemtism, anyway.
Deborah
El Bleacho
> Martin Willett wrote:
>> Martin Willett
>> http://mwillett.org
>> <Martin Willet anti-Semitic foaming rants snipped>
> <Deborah's excellent refutations of MW's KKK rants snipped>
> Not so long as people like Martin Willett are around to promulgate
> antisemtism, anyway.
And his laughable new position. As long as he is an athiest, then his
hatred of Jews and the state of Israel are not anti-Semitism! That white
KKK hood has cut off the circulation to his (pea sized) brain.
- - - - --- somebody@worldwide.net Don
(IKnowHimDoYou- A.) wrote:
>Atheist's Brains
>
>We have just discovered the content of atheist's minds!
>
>They are the result of a big bang-
>
>that produced primeval cosmic dust clouds.
>
>This gives new meaning to the term "scatter brains".
Hmmm...words from the pharisee.
"Devout religionists are frequently attracted to and
bound to their piety largely because it presumably offers them
holier-than-thouness and oneupmanship over non-religionists."
--Dr. Albert Ellis
"If you understand it, it is not God."
--from Saint Augustine¹s, Sermon 117.
- - - - --- somebody@worldwide.net Don
<mwille...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>No, it seems that Judaism is a uniquely racist and divisive religion
>claiming superiority for one people with the "authority" of its own holy
>books self-proclaimed holy status. With arrogance like that it is hardly
>surprising that the Jews have become the biggest fist-magnets in human
>history.
You are talking about Baptists!
PARAPHRASED:
"No, it seems that Southern Baptist is a uniquely racist and divisive
religion claiming superiority for one people with the "authority" of
its own holy book self-proclaimed holy status. With arrogance like
that it is hardly surprising that the Baptists have become the biggest
fist-magnets in human history."
Here's another fairly apt idea to which most Baptists could relate:
Martin Willett
This is fascinating stuff. I pop into a newsgroup called
alt.religion.christianity and notice a thread entitled "Atheist's
Brains". Being an atheist I decide to see what has been discussed.
This was posted to: alt.talk.creationism,
alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.religion.christianity, alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
You then reply to this troll with a Jewish slanted troll, posted to
alt.talk.creationism, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.christianity,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
I respond to that with a short paragraph. That was sent also to
alt.talk.creationism, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.christianity,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
You reply to that calling me a frothing anti-Semite. You post to
alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.religion.christianity, alt.talk.creationism AND soc.culture.israel
YOU added the Jewish newsgroup. And yet somehow you accuse me of
insensitivity for hauling "my anti-Semitism" all over a Jewish
newsgroup. That is ridiculous. You added the Jewish group and you left
it in for a further three replies in which you accuse me of
anti-Semitism and I defend myself against your studied ignorance.
And now you have the temerity (look it up) to accuse me of bad taste for
making dozens of anti-Semitic posts all over Jewish newsgroups.
All of this is obvious for anybody to check out. I am being libelled,
misrepresented and lied about. Anybody can verify that what I am saying
is true.
I have no desire to have my words appear in a Jewish newsgroup, I posted
a reply to your post which was posted to a bunch of Christian
fundamentalists. As soon as the thread moves off the subject of your
unjustified accusations of anti-Semitism I will quite happily trim the
group from the thread. Actually no, because I have nothing to say in
this thread except to defend myself from your absurd charge.
Look me up on Google and Google Groups. Please. I use my real name. I
have been posting on newsgroups for over five years. There is an
enormous amount of evidence out there that proves your hypothesis that I
must be a frothing anti-Semite and obsessed with nothing else because I
made one post that contained criticism of Judaism and I am not Jewish is
totally wide of the mark.
I am an atheist. Most of my newsgroup postings are on
religious/atheistic themes. The majority of my arguments and debates
have been with fundamentalist Christians but I also debate against
people with Muslim, Pagan, Jewish, Wiccan, Bahá'í and other faiths. I do
not discriminate, I reject all religious faiths and I criticize all
religions. The freedom to be able to do that is the most precious
freedom that exists. The day when all comments on religion are shouted
down by believers will be a very poor day for humanity.
I am not a racist. I aim to see a single world government in which the
whole of humanity is the basic political unit. Racists don't think like
that. Being an atheist I don't have to have a weird religious theory to
account for the existence of Jews and their special status with God. No
God, no special status. Savvy? Anti-Semitism comes from racism
and/or religion. I am not a nationalist. I am not a racist or an
anti-racist. I do not subscribe to the faith that all races must be
equal so don't you dare look to check in case you find they're not. To
me it is self-evident that all races produce people capable of
suffering, learning and excelling. I don't really care whether or not
they produce the same average scores in IQ tests or have the same
average penis length and I see no reason to attack or fake the results
if they don't.
I have never understood (empathized with) anti-Semitism because I am
neither religious nor racist. I have never felt the slightest reason to
pick out Jews as being any kind of a special case.
I have never understood Zionism either for exactly the same reasons.
Calling anybody who disagrees with you an anti-Semite is a terrible
tactic and it is libellous.
I really would appreciate it if somebody other than me was making this
point. Am I in a minority of one here? Does everybody else reading this
equate any and every criticism of Judaism and Zionism with anti-Semitism?
El Bleacho
> I have no desire to have my words appear in a Jewish newsgroup
Then why is this post of yours on soc.culture.israel? Right now, you
foaming, hate-filled anti-Semite. Why is this last post of yours on
soc.culture.israel?
> Look me up on Google and Google Groups. Please. I use my real name. I
> have been posting on newsgroups for over five years. There is an
> enormous amount of evidence out there that proves your hypothesis
> that I must be a frothing anti-Semite and obsessed with nothing else
> because I made one post that contained criticism of Judaism and I am
> not Jewish is totally wide of the mark.
There is no way to prove you are who you say you are. Actually there are,
such as if you signed your posts with a PGP signature. And I don't care
who you say you are today, or who you say you are tomorrow. I could care
less if you log onto Usenet saying you are Bingo the Magical Dog. All I
care about is that you are anti-Semitic.
> I
> do not discriminate, I reject all religious faiths and I criticize all
> religions.
Look at your statement, you insane anti-Semite. I do not care if you are
anti anything else; that is just added to the fact that you are
anti-Semitic. It's like you saying that you steal cars, so you can't be a
mass murderer. So you don't like a bunch of other religions. Fine. It
so happens that *ONE* of those things is that you hate Jews, Israel and
Zionism. That makes you an anti-Semite. I could care less if you are also
anti-Muslim and anti-Christian.
> The freedom to be able to do that is the most precious
> freedom that exists. The day when all comments on religion are shouted
> down by believers will be a very poor day for humanity.
Magically, I am using my freedom to comment on religion. I am saying you
are an anti-Semite. You have said you hate Jews, hate Israel, and hate
Zionism. That's enough for me. That makes you an anti-Semite.
> Calling anybody who disagrees with you an anti-Semite is a terrible
> tactic and it is libellous.
I do not use it as a term to insult anyone. I am declaring a fact. You are
an anti-Semite. You hate Semites and hate Zionism.
> I really would appreciate it if somebody other than me was making this
> point. Am I in a minority of one here? Does everybody else reading
> this equate any and every criticism of Judaism and Zionism with
> anti-Semitism?
And here comes the sound of crickets.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>I have no desire to have my words appear in a Jewish newsgroup
>
>
>
> Then why is this post of yours on soc.culture.israel? Right now, you
> foaming, hate-filled anti-Semite. Why is this last post of yours on
> soc.culture.israel?
Because you added it. I thought I made that clear. You have libelled me
on that newsgroup and I am defending myself. That is the only reason. It
is your fault.
>
>
>
>>Look me up on Google and Google Groups. Please. I use my real name. I
>>have been posting on newsgroups for over five years. There is an
>>enormous amount of evidence out there that proves your hypothesis
>>that I must be a frothing anti-Semite and obsessed with nothing else
>>because I made one post that contained criticism of Judaism and I am
>>not Jewish is totally wide of the mark.
>
>
> There is no way to prove you are who you say you are. Actually there are,
> such as if you signed your posts with a PGP signature. And I don't care
> who you say you are today, or who you say you are tomorrow. I could care
> less if you log onto Usenet saying you are Bingo the Magical Dog. All I
> care about is that you are anti-Semitic.
>
I sign my posts with my name, not some nickname I can discard like a
soiled handkerchief. My real name. The name on my degree certificate.
The name I use in my work. The name my wife uses. The name my wife uses
with her Orthodox Jewish employers, looking after their Jewish children.
The name my children use at school. The name you are libelling.
PGP signatures are generally used by paranoid losers who like to pretend
that they are really important. I have never worked out how they are
meant to work and I doubt many other people have either.
You have accused me of being anti-Semitic and obsessed with
anti-Semitism on the basis of no evidence at all. I am not. I am giving
you plenty of evidence to show that I am not obsessed and you are
throwing it in face and blustering as if I am a madman. I am perfectly
sane but I actually don't enjoy being called anti-Semitic. It is really
pissing me off.
My website has 577 pages on it. It is not filled with hatred of Jews.
There is no hatred. There are 92 pages on the Atheism section written by
me. None of those is directly concerned with Jews. A further 3 are
written by an atheist Jew and there are lots of pages of correspondence
between us. The politics section contains one page on Zionism and one on
the relationship between the USA and Israel. Several of my pages have
been republished on another website by a religious Jew. Many Jews visit
my website (966 hits from Israel this month) and I do not get accused of
being anti-Semitic. For one simple reason: I'm not.
>
>
>>I
>>do not discriminate, I reject all religious faiths and I criticize all
>>religions.
>
>
> Look at your statement, you insane anti-Semite. I do not care if you are
> anti anything else; that is just added to the fact that you are
> anti-Semitic. It's like you saying that you steal cars, so you can't be a
> mass murderer. So you don't like a bunch of other religions. Fine. It
> so happens that *ONE* of those things is that you hate Jews, Israel and
> Zionism. That makes you an anti-Semite. I could care less if you are also
> anti-Muslim and anti-Christian.
Anti-Semitism is caused by either a form of racism (general or specific)
or a religious difference which causes people to have antipathy to Jews
rather than members of any other tribe or religion.
It is not caused by atheism!
I do not hate Jews! How many times do I have to say that?
Do you hate Christians? You are not a Christian, therefore you must be
criticizing their religion from the outside and by your reasoning that
can only be because you are driven by hatred. That is absurd logic.
I have criticized the religion of Judaism and I have criticized Zionism.
That does not imply that my motive is hatred of Jews. Jews criticize
Judaism and Zionism also, are they "foaming anti-Semites"?.
>
>>The freedom to be able to do that is the most precious
>>freedom that exists. The day when all comments on religion are shouted
>>down by believers will be a very poor day for humanity.
>
>
> Magically, I am using my freedom to comment on religion. I am saying you
> are an anti-Semite. You have said you hate Jews, hate Israel, and hate
> Zionism. That's enough for me. That makes you an anti-Semite.
That is not a comment on religion. It is a comment about me.
Individually, personally.
I have not said I hate Jews! I have said I do not hate Jews. Repeatedly.
You have consistently repeated your libel, and it is a libel, it is one
of the most vicious and hateful things anybody can be accused of.
What do expect me to do? I am not in the wrong here. I am not going to
back down. I am not going to "admit" that I am anti-Semitic when I am
absolutely not.
>
>
>
>>Calling anybody who disagrees with you an anti-Semite is a terrible
>>tactic and it is libellous.
>
>
> I do not use it as a term to insult anyone. I am declaring a fact. You are
> an anti-Semite. You hate Semites and hate Zionism.
No I do not. You cannot declare as a fact anything about me. You can
express an opinion, on the basis of your refusal to find out anything
about me except what you make up and you read into my words here. That
opinion is libellous as well as being incorrect.
>
>
>
>>I really would appreciate it if somebody other than me was making this
>>point. Am I in a minority of one here? Does everybody else reading
>>this equate any and every criticism of Judaism and Zionism with
>>anti-Semitism?
>
--
Martin Willett
El Bleacho
> Because you added it. I thought I made that clear. You have libelled
> me on that newsgroup and I am defending myself. That is the only
> reason. It is your fault.
You are a paranoid loon. The only reason your post, yet again, continues
to remain on soc.culture.israel is that your anti-Semitism is controlling
your life, foamy.
> I sign my posts with my name, not some nickname I can discard like a
> soiled handkerchief. My real name.
Unsubstantiated lie.
> The name on my degree certificate.
Unsubstantiated lie.
> The name I use in my work.
Unsubstantiated lie.
> The name my wife uses.
Unsubstantiated lie.
> The name my wife
> uses with her Orthodox Jewish employers, looking after their Jewish
> children.
God help any Jew that lets you and your skinhead wife watch their children.
If they only knew how much of a rabid anti-Semite you were, eh loser?
> The name my children use at school. Unsubstantiated lie.
> The name you are
> libelling.
Nobody is libelling you. You are an anti-Semite.
> PGP signatures are generally used by paranoid losers who like to
> pretend that they are really important. I have never worked out how
> they are meant to work and I doubt many other people have either.
Low IQ and lack of computer skills noted.
> You have accused me of being anti-Semitic and obsessed with
> anti-Semitism on the basis of no evidence at all. I am not. I am
> giving you plenty of evidence to show that I am not obsessed and you
> are throwing it in face and blustering as if I am a madman. I am
> perfectly sane but I actually don't enjoy being called anti-Semitic.
> It is really pissing me off.
Denying your anti-Semitism will not change the fact that you have dozens (at
a minimum) of posts attacking Zionism and Semitism.
> My website has 577 pages on it. It is not filled with hatred of Jews.
> There is no hatred. There are 92 pages on the Atheism section written
> by me. None of those is directly concerned with Jews. A further 3 are
> written by an atheist Jew and there are lots of pages of
> correspondence between us.
There is no such thing as an "athiest Jew", you fool.
> Many Jews visit my website (966 hits from Israel this
> month) and I do not get accused of being anti-Semitic. For one simple
> reason: I'm not.
They must not have seen your anti-Semitic remarks on Zionism and Israel.
> Anti-Semitism is caused by either a form of racism (general or
> specific) or a religious difference which causes people to have
> antipathy to Jews rather than members of any other tribe or religion.
I cannot even count how many times you have spoken against Zion. Zion is
the historic land of Israel and the symbol of the Jewish people. You, sir,
are an anti-Semite.
> I do not hate Jews! How many times do I have to say that?
Your actions speak to the opposite.
> Do you hate Christians? You are not a Christian, therefore you must be
> criticizing their religion from the outside and by your reasoning that
> can only be because you are driven by hatred. That is absurd logic.
I love Christians. They are followers of the King of the Jews and they
follow the Jewish Old Testament. You, on the other hand; are an
anti-Semite.
> I have criticized the religion of Judaism and I have criticized
> Zionism.
Admission of being an anti-Semite is noted for the world to see.
> That does not imply that my motive is hatred of Jews. Jews
> criticize Judaism and Zionism also, are they "foaming anti-Semites"?.
You are not a Jew. You are an anti-Semite.
> I have not said I hate Jews! I have said I do not hate Jews.
> Repeatedly. You have consistently repeated your libel, and it is a
> libel, it is one of the most vicious and hateful things anybody can
> be accused of.
Stop being an anti-Semite.
> What do expect me to do? I am not in the wrong here. I am not going to
> back down. I am not going to "admit" that I am anti-Semitic when I am
> absolutely not.
What do I want you to do? I don't want you to do anything, Jew hater.
Actually, I would not mind if you kept your anti-Zionist ideas to yourself
or out of the Israel groups.
> No I do not. You cannot declare as a fact anything about me. You can
> express an opinion, on the basis of your refusal to find out anything
> about me except what you make up and you read into my words here. That
> opinion is libellous as well as being incorrect.
Your words speak for themselves, you foaming anti-Semitic l00n. You said,
and I quote "I have criticized the religion of Judaism and I have criticized
Zionism." Your words against Zion/Israel and against the Jewish religion
speak louder than anything I can ever say. Shame on you, anti-Semite.
Martin Willett
I am not anti-Semitic. I do not hate Jews. I am not obsessed with Jews.
Being opposed to Zionism does not make a person a Jew hater. The word
anti-Semitism should be reserved for those people who hate Jews and
whose motives are based on hatred of Jews. To use the same phrase to
label anybody who has any form of criticism of Judaism or Zionism is
ridiculous, it is a gross libel on the honest critic and it debases the
currency of the charge.
My criticisms of Judaism and Zionism have nothing to do with fear or
hatred of Jews and are entirely consistent with my internationalist and
atheist beliefs. I don't believe in homelands for any people, I don't
believe in any gods, I don't support nations: so not supporting a claim
to build a nation based on a superstition is entirely consistent. It
really is as simple as that. To see that portrayed as having a thing
about Jews is grossly insulting. But you don't just leave it at that you
actually accuse me of anti-Semitism which I regard as extremely offensive.
To have the beliefs I have and NOT to criticize Zionism and Judaism
would be humbug and hypocrisy. But I haven't mentioned Zionism or
Judaism in any of my writings for months. You are making out that I do
nothing else, probably because you have not bothered to check. As I have
pointed out several times I use my real name on newsgroups, I have done
so for over five years. You can check what issues I debate and see that
El Bleacho's caricature is well wide of the mark.
Check out this one, in which I attack anti-Semites head-on:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.politics.parliament/msg/50f0991c79fe5a85?dmode=source
"The thread didn't start with a condemnation of Zionists it began with
a rather tacky slur about the Jewish backgrounds of leading Tories.
I regard Zionism as a racist ideology and so I find it repugnant,
although not quite so repugnant as anti-Semitism.
http://mwillett.org/Politics/minority1.htm
If the Conservative Party is being hijacked by uncritical apologists
for Israel then that is a problem, but having a Jew as Prime Minister
is a non-issue, we settled that point back in the days of Disraeli. If
you have evidence for an uncritical approach to Israel (which I
wholeheartedly agree would not be in the interests of this country)
then let's be seeing it, but not wrapped up as a sordid spot-the-Jew
competition."
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.men/msg/e07ecadf1f79f1bc?dmode=source
There is nothing I could do that would make you change your mind. You
are not open to proof or reason. You are repeating a lie. No matter how
many times a lie is repeated it never becomes true.
WJ20K
you bother with the poster named 'El Bleacho' ? There are countless
nuts on the middle eastern NGs who can do nothing better then spew
hatefilled words. I pop up here every so often for fun. It amuses me
to see how silly some people can be and partake in a little verbal
sparing. But is it really worth the effort you seem to put into it?
Especially with religious fanatics? Just a thought :-)
[WJ20K]
The +Revd
wrote:
Of course there is, you stupid semite. Most jews are atheists. Being
a jew is about genes not religion. That's why jews *look* jewish, for
G-d's sake. Once you're born a jew, you're stuck being a jew until
you die. There is no escape.
<b'rissed>
Norma
"The +Revd" <reneg*de@anglic*n.org> wrote in message
news:42b5699...@news.onetel.net.uk...
Pathetic poppycock...
Martin Willett
> Interesting what you write (plus interesting site you run), but why do
> you bother with the poster named 'El Bleacho' ? There are countless
> nuts on the middle eastern NGs who can do nothing better then spew
> hatefilled words. I pop up here every so often for fun. It amuses me
> to see how silly some people can be and partake in a little verbal
> sparing. But is it really worth the effort you seem to put into it?
> Especially with religious fanatics? Just a thought :-)
> [WJ20K]
>
I was trying to defend myself against his ridiculous and hurtful charge.
You are right. It is ridiculous to be spending three hours responding to
a post dashed off by a closed minded blow-hard in one minute.
I have made my point to the group. Those with open minds can see what my
true position is, whether they agree with it or not it should be clear
that it is nothing like the caricature of it that El Bleacho has created.
He seems to be totally unhinged, I have come across hatred and close
mindedness like that before but until now only from Christian
fundamentalists.
His views do not make sense. The word anti-Semitic obviously refers to
Semitic people, it is a racial definition. A person remains a Semite
whatever their religion, and people can practice Judaism without being
Semitic. El Bleacho obviously defines Jews by religion and not by race
as he says you cannot be an atheist Jew. So what is the point of the
expression "anti-Semite"? He defines it as being anti-Zionist or
critical of the doctrines of Judaism and yet still wants to cling on to
the stinking baggage of racism to make the taunt more hurtful. So in El
Bleacho's book are Jews a hated race or a hated religion? And where does
he think the hatred comes from?
Jim F.
"Martin Willett" <mwille...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3hloqsF...@individual.net...
> WJ20K wrote:
>> Interesting what you write (plus interesting site you run), but why do
>> you bother with the poster named 'El Bleacho' ? There are countless
>> nuts on the middle eastern NGs who can do nothing better then spew
>> hatefilled words. I pop up here every so often for fun. It amuses me
>> to see how silly some people can be and partake in a little verbal
>> sparing. But is it really worth the effort you seem to put into it?
>> Especially with religious fanatics? Just a thought :-)
>> [WJ20K]
>>
>
> I was trying to defend myself against his ridiculous and hurtful charge.
>
> You are right. It is ridiculous to be spending three hours responding to a
> post dashed off by a closed minded blow-hard in one minute.
>
> I have made my point to the group. Those with open minds can see what my
> true position is, whether they agree with it or not it should be clear
> that it is nothing like the caricature of it that El Bleacho has created.
>
> He seems to be totally unhinged, I have come across hatred and close
> mindedness like that before but until now only from Christian
> fundamentalists.
>
> His views do not make sense. The word anti-Semitic obviously refers to
> Semitic people, it is a racial definition.
The term anti-Semitism was coined by the German journalist Wilhelm
Marr in 1873, who went on to found the League for Anti-Semitism in 1879.
(Yes, you guessed it, Herr Marr was a professional anti-Jewish agitator).
The term was based on the racialist theories of Gobineau, Houston
Stewart Chamberlain, and Richard Wagner, all of whom posited that
Europeans could be divided up into different racial categories, with
the so-called Aryans at the top, while the Jews were classified as
being racially "Semites" and were portrayed as being Asiatics who
were said to be biologically and culturally incompatible with European
civilization.
This, of course, was a lot of nonsense, and most modern scholars
would agree that Semites constitute a linguistic category rather than
a racial category. In other words to be a Semite, is to be a speaker
of one of the Semitic languages (i.e. Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, etc.).
This sort of theorizing was supposed to provide a more "scientific" basis
for anti-Jewish hostilty than the traditional kinds which were grounded
in age-old religious prejudices. Of course in practice, that never stopped
anti-Semites from exploiting old religious prejudices for fomenting
hostility towards Jews.
> A person remains a Semite whatever their religion, and people can practice
> Judaism without being Semitic. El Bleacho obviously defines Jews by
> religion and not by race as he says you cannot be an atheist Jew. So what
> is the point of the expression "anti-Semite"? He defines it as being
> anti-Zionist or critical of the doctrines of Judaism and yet still wants
> to cling on to the stinking baggage of racism to make the taunt more
> hurtful. So in El Bleacho's book are Jews a hated race or a hated
> religion? And where does he think the hatred comes from?
I think a large part of the problem is that English seems to lack the words
for properly categorizing Jews. To say that Jews are simply a
religious group and nothing more seems incorrect since there are lots
of people who are classified as Jews but who do not follow Judaism.
There are lots of Jewish atheists around (Israel has certainly had
more than one PM who were atheists or agnostics), as well as
Jews who adhere to other religions. I think that Jack Garbuz is on
to something when he suggests that it might be best to think of
Jews as a tribe or a people. That's why it is not so easy for non-Jews to
become Jews. To become a Jew, requires a bit more than
simply switching religions, it requires that one be accepted into
the tribe. Under halakha (Jewish law), one is considered to be
a Jew, either if one's mother is halakhically Jewish (thereby
making this definition recursive), or if one has undergone
a bona fide conversion to Judaism.
The +Revd
That's crap. Jews often refer to themselves as semites. Micky Mouth
did just that yesterday.
<b'rissed>
The +Revd
wrote:
Oh, shut up, shitske. Address the point or shut da fuck up already.
Norma
That is the problem, there IS no point!!!
>
The +Revd
wrote:
No, the problem is that you can't see the point!!!!
John Baker
wrote:
So take your hat off so we can all see it.
Martin Willett
Thanks. Semitic refers to the descendants of Shem, eldest son of Noah.
That is of course mythology and of no practical value. Semitic languages
is the name given to various related languages, they probably originated
in Northern Africa and migrated East and North into the Levant. In
practical terms today Semitic refers to Jews. And the label
anti-Semitism was invented to give bogus scientific credibility to a
pre-existing hatred of Jews which was probably an amalgam of fear and
hatred of the different, religiously inspired and propagated suspicion
and hatred and the distrust that builds up towards any minority which
refuses to integrate and claims special status. You can't get much more
special than declaring that you are God's only chosen people.
Any group which refuses to integrate and considers itself special is
going to cause some resentment in the communities it fails to integrate
with. The more special they claim to be the more this tends to be
treated as intolerable arrogance and the more lurid stories start to
spread about the group that fails to integrate. Whether resentment turns
into open hatred or pogrom probably depends on general levels of
hardship, it's much easier to live and let live when the living is easy.
In America and Britain Jews have integrated fairly well into the wider
society and so there is little spontaneous "anti-Semitism", and hardly
any since the depression years of the thirties were put into history.
What little anti-Semitism exists in Britain and America is studied and
deliberate, often inspired by contrarian sentiments. People who find
themselves being characterized as right wing jerks get to enjoy the
attention and see anti-Semitism as a very cheap and easy way to gain
notoriety. Put yourself in Jimmy The Skinhead's boots, last year three
children from his school got their names in the newspaper, one for
getting the highest marks in the county, one for getting a place at
ballet school and the other for being expelled from school for painting
a swastika on a wall. How to make a name for himself ... hmmm, it's no
contest, is it? Being bad is so much easier than being notably good at
anything worthwhile and pretending to be an anti-Semitic jerk doesn't
take any special talents at all.
Don't confuse understanding with condoning. A failure to understand,
especially a refusal to understand, helps nobody. Condemning hatred
without knowing where the hatred comes from is futile. Condemning those
analysing the hatred as if they are guilty of the hatred is almost as
pathetic as the story of the paediatrician being beaten up because
somebody said she was a "paedo" (paedophile).
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_49785.html
El Bleacho
> Thanks.
Thanking folks won't change the fact that you are an anti-Semite. And I see
that you cannot help but keep posting your shit to soc.culture.israel; you
foaming KKK lunatic. What part of "get the fuck out of our group, you
anti-Semitic asshole" don't you understand.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>Thanks.
>
>
> Thanking folks won't change the fact that you are an anti-Semite. And I see
> that you cannot help but keep posting your shit to soc.culture.israel; you
> foaming KKK lunatic. What part of "get the fuck out of our group, you
> anti-Semitic asshole" don't you understand.
>
Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you,
presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
No matter how much you throw your toys out of the pram you are not
convincing anybody. I don't hate Jews and no matter how hatefully you
behave towards me or my family that isn't going to change.
You have no power over me.
I hope the lifestyle comes together,
El Bleacho
> Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you,
> presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
> attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
No, you anti-Semitic liar. You are the one with no leg to stand on,
begging for support. You begged every one of your groups to support you.
I have copies of the posts where you asked others in the group to back you
up on your assertion that speaking against Zionism and Israel was not being
anti-Semitic. Nobody backed you up.
You are a died in the wool, frothing anti-Semite.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you,
>>presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
>>attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
>
>
> No, you anti-Semitic liar. You are the one with no leg to stand on,
> begging for support. You begged every one of your groups to support you.
> I have copies of the posts where you asked others in the group to back you
> up on your assertion that speaking against Zionism and Israel was not being
> anti-Semitic. Nobody backed you up.
>
> You are a died in the wool, frothing anti-Semite.
>
The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/dyed-in-the-wool
http://www.answers.com/dyed-in-the-wool&r=67
I forgot to say before but of the three women I have had sex with one
was half-Jewish (the wrong half in case you're wondering).
Begged every one of my groups? Bollocks. This thread is in
alt.religion.christian.baptist
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy
alt.religion.christianity
alt.talk.creationism
and the one you added
soc.culture.israel
I am not a creationist. I'm not Israeli, I'm English. I'm not a Baptist,
Christian or even religious, I'm a born again atheist, recently
celebrating thirty years of thinking for myself.
These are not my groups, I don't expect to get much support here, I'm
just passing through.
As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are libelling
me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
cactus
perspective on what you have said while here.
El Bleacho
> The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
BWHAHAHAHA. A Spelling flame. Oh, this day gets better as it goes on.
What's next?
> I forgot to say before but of the three women I have had sex with one
> was half-Jewish (the wrong half in case you're wondering).
Let's not discuss your sex life. It has nothing to do with your hatred of
Israel and Zionism. That is why you are an anti-Semite.
> I am not a creationist. I'm not Israeli, I'm English. I'm not a
> Baptist, Christian or even religious, I'm a born again atheist,
> recently celebrating thirty years of thinking for myself.
You are not thinking for yourself. You are certainly not the world's first
athiest. You are parrotting their beliefs (or lack thereof).
> As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
> because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are libelling
> me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
I am not libeling you, you paranoid loon. I am pointing out the fact that
you are an anti-Semite.
El Bleacho
> Martin Willett wrote:
>> As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
>> because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are
>> libelling me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
>>
> Did you read my responses to your comments? Just curious. Different
> perspective on what you have said while here.
He didn't read a friggin thing. He just keeps going on an on about how evil
Zionist Israel is; and then gets flustered when he is told that is
anti-Semitism. What a moron this clown is.
cactus
> cactus wrote:
>
>>Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>>As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
>>>because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are
>>>libelling me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
>>>
>>
>>Did you read my responses to your comments? Just curious. Different
>>perspective on what you have said while here.
>
>
> He didn't read a friggin thing. He just keeps going on an on about how evil
> Zionist Israel is; and then gets flustered when he is told that is
> anti-Semitism. What a moron this clown is.
>
The +Revd
wrote:
>Martin Willett wrote:
>> Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you,
>> presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
>> attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
>
>No, you anti-Semitic liar. You are the one with no leg to stand on,
>begging for support. You begged every one of your groups to support you.
>I have copies of the posts where you asked others in the group to back you
>up on your assertion that speaking against Zionism and Israel was not being
>anti-Semitic. Nobody backed you up.
>
>You are a died in the wool, frothing anti-Semite.
While you are a dyed in the wool, irrational hysterical semite.
The +Revd
<mwille...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>El Bleacho wrote:
>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>>Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you,
>>>presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
>>>attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
>>
>>
>> No, you anti-Semitic liar. You are the one with no leg to stand on,
>> begging for support. You begged every one of your groups to support you.
>> I have copies of the posts where you asked others in the group to back you
>> up on your assertion that speaking against Zionism and Israel was not being
>> anti-Semitic. Nobody backed you up.
>>
>> You are a died in the wool, frothing anti-Semite.
>>
>
>The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
Bleacho's native language is yiddish. He won't understand.
<b'rissed>
The +Revd
<she...@liberman.com> wrote:
>Ah, rev...moronic as ever. So nice to see some semblance of consistency
>in this universe
Ah, Liebervitz. Shalom already, asshole!
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
>
>
> BWHAHAHAHA. A Spelling flame. Oh, this day gets better as it goes on.
> What's next?
Do you take pride in your ignorance? I suppose it does make sense, you
should stick with what you're best at.
>
>
>>I forgot to say before but of the three women I have had sex with one
>>was half-Jewish (the wrong half in case you're wondering).
>
>
> Let's not discuss your sex life. It has nothing to do with your hatred of
> Israel and Zionism. That is why you are an anti-Semite.
Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to do with
having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it means
hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
El Bleacho's mindless doctrine is that there is only one possible reason
to be against Zionism and that is because you are an anti-Semite. And if
you deny it you are a lying anti-Semite and if you state it in a public
forum you are a frothing anti-Semite. And if you are married your wife
is a skinhead.
The fact that many Jews are not Zionists is something he simply ignores.
The fact that I don't hate Jews to the point of my wife wife working for
a Jewish family, having Jewish friends and me shagging a young woman of
Jewish descent is apparently completely irrelevant. Keeper of the Jewish
Conscience El Bleacho has declared this to be a fact and incontestable.
He knows me better than I know myself and he is doing the world a favour
by pointing this out.
>
>
>>I am not a creationist. I'm not Israeli, I'm English. I'm not a
>>Baptist, Christian or even religious, I'm a born again atheist,
>>recently celebrating thirty years of thinking for myself.
>
>
> You are not thinking for yourself. You are certainly not the world's first
> athiest. You are parrotting their beliefs (or lack thereof).
http://mwillett.org/athiest.htm
I admit it, I'm not an Orthodox Atheist. I haven't attended any
services, I haven't read half the holy books.
What a ridiculous job you are making of this you illiterate buffoon.
I am an atheist. There's only one qualification to be an atheist: you
must not believe in gods. I have been running an atheist website for
over five years. I also run an atheist forum. There are dozens of people
out there who only know one atheist: me. I don't need lessons in
atheism, I give them, and people thank me for them.
>
>
>
>>As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
>>because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are libelling
>>me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
>
>
> I am not libeling you, you paranoid loon. I am pointing out the fact that
> you are an anti-Semite.
>
The fact is that anti-Semites hate Jews. If you don't hate Jews you are
not an anti-Semite. It's really that simple.
Wouldn't it make more sense for a post-colonial era Englishman who hated
Jews to be fully in favour of Zionism? Think it through. If I hated Jews
like you make out surely the most satisfactory solution would be to
declare England a homeland for the English and Israel a homeland for the
Jews and to expell Jews from England.
But I don't say that. I am happy to encourage Jewish immigration into
Britain, I am happy to encourage any group into Britain except Muslims
because we have enough already. (Enough already? Did I just say that? Oy
Vey!)
"With regard to anti-Semitism, the distinguished Israeli statesman Abba
Eban pointed out the main task of Israeli propaganda (they would call it
exclamation, what's called 'propaganda' when others do it) is to make it
clear to the world there's no difference between anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism. By anti-Zionism he meant criticisms of the current
policies of the State of Israel. So there's no difference between
criticism of policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, because
if he can establish 'that' then he can undercut all criticism by
invoking the Nazis and that will silence people. We should bear it in
mind when there's talk in the US about anti-Semitism." - Noam Chomsky
You're not establishing it. Not even coming close.
Repeating a lie does not make a truth.
"The bitter irony of fate decreed that the same biological and racist
argument extended by the Nazis, and which inspired the inflammatory laws
of Nuremberg, serve as the basis for the official definition of
Jewishness in the bosom of the state of Israel" - Haim Cohen
(former judge of the Supreme Court of Israel)
I don't hate Jews. Have I said?
Sheldon Liberman
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
> Did you read my responses to your comments? Just curious. Different
> perspective on what you have said while here.
I started to respond to one but I ran out of time. I made responding to
the frothing one my priority. I thought I had posted a reply to that
effect but it seems I was mistaken.
I am glad to see that you do draw a distinction between criticizing and
hating. The two people in the entire world that I criticize most often
are my children, equating criticism and hatred is absurd.
El Bleacho is obviously too intellectually challenged to grasp the
distinction between criticism and hatred or between explaining and
condoning.
Even when (very briefly) at the age of 15 I was attracted to extreme
right wing politics I never had the slightest desire or inclination
toward anti-Semitism, I have always found anti-Semitism absurd,
pathetic, and beneath my dignity in addition to the normal disgust
response to any form of hatred one does not share. I find the suggestion
that I am anti-Semitic deeply offensive. But now I see that El Bleacho
is an intellectually challenged troll there's more pity in me than anger.
I will be leaving today so I can't be getting in to any long discussions
I'm afraid so here a a few comments on your unanswerd posts:
> an atheist would presumably have similar criticisms for all
religions, > pretty much impartially.
Yes. I criticise all religions from time to time, usually in proportion
to my knowledge and understanding of them. I criticize Christianity the
most because I am most familiar with it. Unlike many atheists I do not
see myself as somebody who does not believe in God, I do not believe in
gods. Any gods. I do not have any superstitious beliefs of any kind. I
do not ally myself with Pagans or Wiccans or any other gullible idiots.
I do not cut Eastern mysticism any more slack than I cut for serpent
handlers from Arkansas. My attitude to all religions is probably quite
similar to the typical Kansas school teachers' attitude to belief in the
god Neptune: I can understand ancient people believing this myth because
they didn't know any better but surely we know better now?
> Second, feel free to criticize Judaism on a religious basis, but
> Zionism is a political movement: criticizing that might be better
> done politically.
Divorcing God from Zion is rather difficult to do. If the Jews had just
been a normal tribe and they had been dispersed they would have been
assimilated into the lands they moved to within a century or so and they
would merit no more ink in history books than dozens of other tribes
that interacted with the Roman Empire. The word "Hebrews" might have
been written on a slant somewhere in the general vicinity of Jerusalem
with a few arrows pointing outward, end of story. Europeans with Hebrew
ancestors would no more look to Jerusalem than red haired Yorkshiremen
look to Scandinavia. By the time Europeans cottoned on to the concept of
surnames there wouldn't have been any Jewish identity, just a few Hebrew
sounding words in dozens of European languages and possibly a few places
where the script ran right to left. It is the religion at the heart of
Jewish culture which created "the Jewish problem" by preventing
assimilation, and the scriptural basis of the religion that ensured it
survived for so long.
I agree with you, racism is not the right word, I was wrong, tribalism
is better. But tribes such as Hutu and Tutsi can hate as much as any
people of a different race. There's no moral superiority in claiming
your sense of superiority over outsiders is based on your tribe rather
than your race. Nor for that matter is there any difference in claiming
your sense of superiority is based on your nation. The sin is the
unjustified sense of superiority, the great achievement of being born to
the parents who belong in the right group, not the nature of the
cleavage. There's as much to scorn in the Kansas beer gut thumper who
claims he's best because he's 'merican like Einstein, Bill Gates and
Carl Lewis than the klansman who thinks he's smart cos he been done and
got hisself born white. Responding to prejudice by emphasizing pride is
like fighting a hot oil fire by pouring on cold water, it is a perfectly
understandable reaction but it is a very unwise move.
If the Roman Empire had not dispersed the Jews there would not have been
the same history of hate and persecution. The tribalism of the Jews was
no different to that of most tribes. There would have been no pogroms or
holocaust without the diaspora. But there could well still have been
Crusades of some kind and religiously inspired wars. Without the
diaspora Zionism would be meaningless. Without (the persistent nature
of) Judaism the diaspora would have been a footnote in history, only of
any interest to academics.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>> I'm far too bright to be an anti-Semite.
>
> No you aren't. There have been plenty of very smart ones, Goethe and T.
> S. Eliot being good examples.
>
Goethe? Er kann mich im arsche lecken.
I think both were Christians raised in countries with Christian
heritages and anti-Semitism was all around and seldom challenged.
I was born in England in 1963. Nobody ever taught me Jews were Christ-
killers or evil. I was barely conscious of Jews at all until I was in my
teens and an atheist. Jews were the innocent victims of Nazis, that was it.
The only British people of my age who hate Jews are people who choose to
become neo Nazis or belong to the grubbier churches.
cactus
the USA it varies by region or neighborhood.
But the issues are more complex for those who are not "simple"
antisemites as were the two I mentioned. Maintaining ones own opinion
can be challenging because to disagree with Zionism or what Israel is
doing is often considered antisemitic. I evaluate a person's position
and the manner of its expression.
For example, to be upset and angry with the Israeli government over its
treatment of Palestinians is perfectly fine. Not taking the history
into account or recognizing that nobody's hands are clean is another
story. So I discount the comments of someone who simply blames Israel
for the troubles without discussing the Palestinian and Arab
responsibility for the situation.
One major problem is that people do not think, only parrot the lines of
romantic heroes. My father was twice a political refugee, once from
Germany and later from a repressive Central American country. When some
of my college friends started talking about the "freedom-loving" people
of the particular Central American country, I began to realize that most
do not look beyond the immediate, easy and incorrect answer.
The other issue that I have is that people do not understand Judaism as
it has evolved since Biblical times. Certain Christians, especially some
here, do not believe that Judaism has developed beyond the "eye for an
eye" stage. Lots has changed, and the notion of a "chosen people" is
one more of service than of selection.
This type of ignorance is supported by those who wish to convert us, and
propagated by the ignorant. You owe it to yourself to talk to your
wife's employers about this and see what they say. I can only hope that
they will understand.
El Bleacho
> I started to respond to one but I ran out of time. I made responding
> to the frothing one my priority. I thought I had posted a reply to
> that effect but it seems I was mistaken.
Incredible. The frothing anti-Semite is stealing lines from his enemy.
> El Bleacho is obviously too intellectually challenged to grasp the
> distinction between criticism and hatred or between explaining and
> condoning.
Projection noted, anti-Semite.
> Divorcing God from Zion is rather difficult to do.
Well, your solution of gassing all Zionists is racist.
<hours and hours of Herr Willett anti-Semitism snipped>
El Bleacho
> Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to do with
> having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it means
> hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
You are a fucking idiot; you white hooded, frothing anti-Semite.
> The fact that many Jews are not Zionists is something he simply
> ignores.
All Jews are Zionists, you horse's ass. Any person of Jewish faith
believes in Tanakh, which guarantees Zion as a birthright. You moronic
anti-Semite.
> The fact that I don't hate Jews to the point of my wife wife working
> for a Jewish family, having Jewish friends and me shagging a young
> woman of Jewish descent is apparently completely irrelevant.
Keep spewing, frothing KKKook.
> But I don't say that. I am happy to encourage Jewish immigration into
> Britain, I am happy to encourage any group into Britain except Muslims
> because we have enough already. (Enough already? Did I just say that?
> Oy Vey!)
More anti-Semitic statements and anti-Muslim statements noted, KKKook.
> I don't hate Jews. Have I said?
Yep. You said. Along with how you want to gas all the Zionists and
inhabitants of Israel. Idiotic KKKook.
The +Revd
wrote:
>Martin Willett wrote:
>> Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to do with
>> having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it means
>> hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
>
>You are a fucking idiot; you white hooded, frothing anti-Semite.
You are a fucking cretin, you yarmulkad, mouth-breathing semite.
<b'rissed>
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>I started to respond to one but I ran out of time. I made responding
>>to the frothing one my priority. I thought I had posted a reply to
>>that effect but it seems I was mistaken.
>
>
> Incredible. The frothing anti-Semite is stealing lines from his enemy.
>
>
>>El Bleacho is obviously too intellectually challenged to grasp the
>>distinction between criticism and hatred or between explaining and
>>condoning.
>
>
> Projection noted, anti-Semite.
>
>
>>Divorcing God from Zion is rather difficult to do.
>
>
> Well, your solution of gassing all Zionists is racist.
>
>
> <hours and hours of Herr Willett anti-Semitism snipped>
>
Oh how bloody original. Not supporting Zionism means people want to gas
Jews apparently. It's not true. It never was and it never will be. You
can't make your lie the truth by repeating it.
There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
anti-Semites too?
Crawl back under your stone.
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to do with
>>having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it means
>>hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
>
>
> You are a fucking idiot; you white hooded, frothing anti-Semite.
>
>
Repeating a lie does not make a truth.
>
>>The fact that many Jews are not Zionists is something he simply
>>ignores.
>
>
> All Jews are Zionists, you horse's ass. Any person of Jewish faith
> believes in Tanakh, which guarantees Zion as a birthright. You moronic
> anti-Semite.
All religious Jews might have some belief in Zion and the promise of
land from "G-d" but that is not the same as supporting the creation of a
nationalist Zionist state.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
"Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our
Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also
many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its
contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews."
"True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization formed by a group of
religious Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world and the
American public and politicians in particular, that the idealogy of
Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism."
>
>
>>The fact that I don't hate Jews to the point of my wife wife working
>>for a Jewish family, having Jewish friends and me shagging a young
>>woman of Jewish descent is apparently completely irrelevant.
>
>
> Keep spewing, frothing KKKook.
>
You are really damaging your cause now with your refusal to demonstrate
any level of thought. Please keep it up. Perhaps you should type in a
fake German accent, give me an SS rank and think up some hilarious
charge against my mother.
>>But I don't say that. I am happy to encourage Jewish immigration into
>>Britain, I am happy to encourage any group into Britain except Muslims
>>because we have enough already. (Enough already? Did I just say that?
>>Oy Vey!)
>
>
> More anti-Semitic statements and anti-Muslim statements noted, KKKook.
>
>
>>I don't hate Jews. Have I said?
>
>
> Yep. You said. Along with how you want to gas all the Zionists and
> inhabitants of Israel. Idiotic KKKook.
>
I have not said anything about gassing Jews. Why would I want to gas
Jews? I don't have a problem with Jews. It seems you are the one with
the problem, you are trying to sell a lie and nobody is buying. All
criticism of Judaism and Zionism does not come from hatred. You can't
get me to hate what I do not hate, no matter how hatefully you act.
The Ku Klux Klan is a white supremacist organization full of hateful
Christians, they are the kind of arseholes I spent most of my time
on-line fighting. I have nothing in common with them. You know this is
true and still you try to persist in spreading this ridiculous notion
that if anybody doesn't support everything a Jewish person wants to do
religiously and politically it is because they hate all Jews and want to
see them all murdered, probably in gas chambers. You know you are too
smart to actually believe it honestly, so why are you using faith to
hold onto such a stupid idea?
El Bleacho
> There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
> anti-Semites too?
There are millions and millions of Jews on this planet, you frothing,
anti-Semitic KKKook. The concept of Judaism fundamentally is integral with
Zionism. Zionism = Promised Land, as guaranteed in Old Testament, you
frothing anti-Semitic KKKook. To be a Jew you have to believe Old Testament
is divinely written, and if you believe that then you believe that Israel
is promised to us by God. If you do not believe in God and the Old
Testament, you most certainly are not a Jew. So stop your idiotic lies,
you piece of shit KKKook.
> Crawl back under your stone.
Go fuck yourself, you Jew hating monster. Post the name of your wife's
employer - I think they might want to know how much you hate Israel and
Zionism. I do not think their children are safe with the wife of an
anti-Semitic KKKook.
El Bleacho
> http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Wow - so now you have lowered yourself to posting websites of KKK supporters
and their lies? What else do you do for an encore, you anti-Semitic
KKKook? Will you post links to al-Jizeera and al-Qaida sites too, you
fucking Muslim loon?
Pastor Dave
<ElBl...@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>Martin Willett wrote:
>> http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
>
>Wow - so now you have lowered yourself to posting websites of KKK supporters
>and their lies? What else do you do for an encore, you anti-Semitic
>KKKook? Will you post links to al-Jizeera and al-Qaida sites too, you
>fucking Muslim loon?
This is very telling of you as a person.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
Pastor Dave
<ElBl...@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>Martin Willett wrote:
>> There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
>> anti-Semites too?
>
>There are millions and millions of Jews on this planet, you frothing,
>anti-Semitic KKKook. The concept of Judaism fundamentally is integral with
>Zionism.
So anyone that doesn't agree with your view of what
Judaism is a "frothing aniti-Semitic KKKook". Gotcha.
>To be a Jew you have to believe Old Testament
>is divinely written, and if you believe that then you
>believe that Israel is promised to us by God.
And it was given to them. And the Jews failed
and disobeyed God.
>Go fuck yourself, you Jew hating monster.
You are an idiot and a disgrace to Jews.
Goodbye.
Martin Willett
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:15:58 GMT, "El Bleacho"
> <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>
>
>>Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
>>
>>Wow - so now you have lowered yourself to posting websites of KKK supporters
>>and their lies? What else do you do for an encore, you anti-Semitic
>>KKKook? Will you post links to al-Jizeera and al-Qaida sites too, you
>>fucking Muslim loon?
>
>
> This is very telling of you as a person.
>
The really weird thing is that if you look at some of his other posts
you can see he isn't stupid, he is capable of thoughtful analysis.
Now I'm a Muslim loon? Whereas yesterday I was anti-Muslim too. Is
somebody breaking into his computer and posting this shit to discredit
El Bleacho? If so *it's working*.
WJ20K
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
> > There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
> > anti-Semites too?
>
> There are millions and millions of Jews on this planet, you frothing,
> anti-Semitic KKKook. The concept of Judaism fundamentally is integral with
> Zionism. Zionism = Promised Land, as guaranteed in Old Testament, you
> frothing anti-Semitic KKKook. To be a Jew you have to believe Old Testament
> is divinely written, and if you believe that then you believe that Israel
> is promised to us by God. If you do not believe in God and the Old
> Testament, you most certainly are not a Jew. So stop your idiotic lies,
> you piece of shit KKKook.
Which means that you are strictly expecting others to believe in YOUR
version of Judaism. In case you have not noticed, there are plenty of
non-Jews is the world and why should they accept your interpretation of
Judaism?
Besides that there are Ultra-Othodox Jews who think Israel's existence
is a blasphemy and that it should not exist at all until the return of
the Messiah. Who are you to tell those Jews that they are wrong and
you are right? How do you 'know' you are right? These Ultra-Orthodox
Jews think YOU are the nutty Jew, in fact they claim you are no Jew (in
the religious sense) at all because of your blasphemous beliefs! If
all Jews followed their interpretation of Judaism (which could be
correct) there would be no state of Israel today and no problem to
solve. Decide amongst yourselves first what Judaism really says about
a state of Israel before bashing others. ROTFL ! :-D
[WJ20K]
cactus
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:13:25 GMT, "El Bleacho"
> <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>
>
>
>>Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>>There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
>>>anti-Semites too?
>>
>>There are millions and millions of Jews on this planet, you frothing,
>>anti-Semitic KKKook. The concept of Judaism fundamentally is integral with
>>Zionism.
>
>
> So anyone that doesn't agree with your view of what
> Judaism is a "frothing aniti-Semitic KKKook". Gotcha.
>
>
>
>>To be a Jew you have to believe Old Testament
>>is divinely written, and if you believe that then you
>>believe that Israel is promised to us by God.
>
>
> And it was given to them. And the Jews failed
> and disobeyed God.
Yes, and came back. The Covenant continues, even though both parties
have failed on occasion to live up to their ends of the bargain.
<snip>
Pastor Dave
<mwille...@invalid.invalid> spake thusly:
>Pastor Dave wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:15:58 GMT, "El Bleacho"
>> <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>>Martin Willett wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
>>>
>>>Wow - so now you have lowered yourself to posting websites of KKK supporters
>>>and their lies? What else do you do for an encore, you anti-Semitic
>>>KKKook? Will you post links to al-Jizeera and al-Qaida sites too, you
>>>fucking Muslim loon?
>>
>>
>> This is very telling of you as a person.
>>
>
>The really weird thing is that if you look at some of his other posts
>you can see he isn't stupid, he is capable of thoughtful analysis.
Which only proves that it is His hatred for Christ that
is responding.
>Now I'm a Muslim loon? Whereas yesterday I was anti-Muslim too. Is
>somebody breaking into his computer and posting this shit to discredit
>El Bleacho? If so *it's working*.
<lol> :)
Jim F.
"El Bleacho" <ElBl...@Clorox.gov> wrote in message
news:pkAue.2549$re....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Martin Willett wrote:
>> There are thousands of Jews who do not support Zionism, are they
>> anti-Semites too?
>
> There are millions and millions of Jews on this planet, you frothing,
> anti-Semitic KKKook. The concept of Judaism fundamentally is integral
> you frothing anti-Semitic KKKook.
That maybe true within your own idiosyncratic version of
Judaism but say that is the case for all followers of Judaism
is simply untrue.
In a post I wrote a couple of years ago, I said
concerning the FAQ for soc.culture.jewish:
"One of the points in the FAQ that I found of interest was the admission
that even when people were agreed that Jews constituted a separate nation,
they did not conceive of this nationhood as necessarily entailing
the possession of a distinct territory and government. The notion
that Jewish nationhood does require both a distinct territory and
a distinct government is one of the basic premisses of Zionism,
but as the FAQ admits, that notion is one that owes more to
the development of a political philosophy of nationalism during
the 19th century, than it does to Jewish religious traditions.
Until well into the 20th century, most Orthodox Jews were
not Zionists, since they held that the return of the Jews to
Palestine, with the creation of a distinct Jewish government
there, was not intended to occur until the coming of the
Messiah. Zionists were thus attacked as blasphemers who
were seen as attempting to circumvent God's plan for the
Jews. Even today among the cheredim, the Satmar Hasidim
and Neturei Karta continue to adhere to this anti-Zionism.
The Neture Karta, for instance, hold that Palestine, properly
belongs to the Palestinian Arabs until the coming of the
Messiah. While the NK and the Satmar, now a days,
represent only a minority of Orthodox Jews, they are a
reminder that for quite a long time, most Jews, while
conceiving of themselves as a nation, did not believe
that their nationhood required that they possess a distince
territory with its own government, at least not until the
coming of the Messiah. Since most Zionists do seem to
equate the traditional Jewish conception of nationhood
with the tenets of modern nationalism, the recognition
that Jews had long held to a rather different conception
of nationhood, thus undercuts a key premise of Zionist
ideology."
> To be a Jew you have to believe Old Testament is divinely written,
Which would exclude the Reform Jews who do not
hold to that belief.
> and if you believe that then you believe that Israel is promised to us by
> God. If you do not believe in God and the Old Testament, you most
> certainly are not a Jew. So stop your idiotic lies, you piece of shit
> KKKook.
OK, why is your interpretation of Torah better than that
of the Neturei Karta and the Satmar Hasidim?
>
>> Crawl back under your stone.
>
> Go fuck yourself, you Jew hating monster. Post the name of your wife's
> employer - I think they might want to know how much you hate Israel and
> Zionism. I do not think their children are safe with the wife of an
> anti-Semitic KKKook.
>
>
> --
> _____________________
> I am hung like Einstein;
> and as smart as a horse!
That's an insult to horses!!
>
>
El Bleacho
> The really weird thing is that if you look at some of his other posts
> you can see he isn't stupid, he is capable of thoughtful analysis.
What on earth makes you think that a Jew can be against Zion; the very base
of Judaism? Anyone who is against Zionism is against Judaism. And you,
well you have repeatedly said you are against Zionism and against Israel;
which makes you an anti-Semite.
El Bleacho
> Now I'm a Muslim loon?
That was meant purely as an insult, to annoy you. But the truth of the
matter is that you are an anti-Semite. And since you are obsessed with your
anti-Semitism; you are a frothing anti-Semite. A KKKook, like any other
run-of-the-mill Jew hater. Tell me, Martin Willett the Jew Hater; if
you got your wish and there was no more Zion, no more Israel; what would
you do with the millions of Jews you just displaced? Would you gas them,
Martin? And what about the religion - without Zion it is nothing. Would
you just make it illegal to be a Jew. Banish the religion from the human
race? Would you kill every Jew that refused to give up believing God's
promise for a Holy Land; to make sure you were done with Zionism once and
for all?
God, you are sick. Maybe you should consider that there are far more
theists on this planet than athiests. Would you be OK with all the theists
rising as one voice and outlawing athiesm? Perhaps you would be OK with the
theists gassing all of you athiests?
Martin Willett
Stop calling me an anti-Semite, which you know I am not, and I may
answer your questions.
I will not be libelled.
I do not hate Jews, I never have. Repeating a lie will never make it true.
Is that too hard to grasp?
You have made it clear you are just trying to insult me so I see no
reason to give you any satisfaction.
You are using a debating tactic which is antithetical to free speech and
tolerance, it is damaging debate itself as well as your reputation.
If you are incapable of posting a message without insults you are not
worthy to debate with and so I will not debate with you, I will just
defend myself. The more unreasonable you behave and the more I rise
above your childish name-calling the weaker your argument appears.
El Bleacho
> El Bleacho wrote:
>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>> Now I'm a Muslim loon?
>>
>>
>> That was meant purely as an insult, to annoy you. But the truth of
>> the matter is that you are an anti-Semite. And since you are
>> obsessed with your anti-Semitism; you are a frothing anti-Semite. A
>> KKKook, like any other run-of-the-mill Jew hater. Tell me, Martin
>> Willett the Jew Hater; if you got your wish and there was no
>> more Zion, no more Israel; what would you do with the millions of
>> Jews you just displaced? Would you gas them, Martin? And what
>> about the religion - without Zion it is nothing. Would you just
>> make it illegal to be a Jew. Banish the religion from the human
>> race? Would you kill every Jew that refused to give up believing
>> God's promise for a Holy Land; to make sure you were done with
>> Zionism once and for all? God, you are sick. Maybe you should
>> consider that there are far
>> more theists on this planet than athiests. Would you be OK with all
>> the theists rising as one voice and outlawing athiesm? Perhaps you
>> would be OK with the theists gassing all of you athiests?
>>
>>
>
> Stop calling me an anti-Semite, which you know I am not, and I may
> answer your questions.
As long as you speak against Judaism and Zionism; I will continue to tell
the world you are an anti-Semite.
El Bleacho
> Stop calling me an anti-Semite, which you know I am not, and I may
> answer your questions.
I have a better idea, Martin Willett the anti-Semite. I am going to put
you in killfile just so I don't have to see your denials any further. So,
I am giving you the last word. Tell everyone how you are not an
anti-Semite. I could care less. You and I both know the real truth,
anti-Semite. ^K
Martin Willett
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>>Stop calling me an anti-Semite, which you know I am not, and I may
>>answer your questions.
>
>
> I have a better idea, Martin Willett the anti-Semite. I am going to put
> you in killfile just so I don't have to see your denials any further. So,
> I am giving you the last word. Tell everyone how you are not an
> anti-Semite. I could care less. You and I both know the real truth,
> anti-Semite. ^K
>
As I have stated before I am not a Baptist, Christian, Bible reader,
Israeli, Creationist or religious. I am not expecting to be acknowledged
as the winner of any debates here. But I will not be brow-beaten by
crude bully-boy tactics. At least he hasn't silenced me with his
transparent lies, and I can't see a great queue of people lining up to
agree with him.
All beliefs must be open to challenge. Judaism and Zionism are not an
exception. There are many reasons to be critical of Zionism and of the
beliefs and strategies of Jews. To portray all criticism of the actions
of Jews as motivated by anti-Semitism is repugnant, slanderous and plain
wrong.
Anti-Semitism is thoroughly abhorrent. Surely there is more than enough
anti-Semitism in the world without inventing it where it does not exist?