Antinomian, let's talk about a man named John List ...
Donna Kupp
John List was a "Christian".
John List was a Lutheran.
John List believed everything you say.
John List murdered his whole family and sent them to heaven.
According to the doctrines you teach,
John List was theologically correct.
After all, John List believed that "Jesus paid it all",
John was sorry that he had murdered. John knew he had done
wrong and had the faith to believe he could make his
peace with God because Jesus died even for him.
Let me ask you a question:
How many times can John List murder his family and still be
under the blood of Christ? Seventy times seven, you say?
What nonsense!
The thing that you and John List have never grasped is the fact
that forgiveness (justification) is not synonymous with
inheriting eternal life. That is why Paul said to
the (justified) Galatians :
"I warn you as I warned you before that those
who DO such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Gal 5:21
The Galatians were believers but it was what they DID
that determined whether they would inherit the kingdom of God or not.
The terrible tragedy of John List is that he did not
murder his family in spite of what his church taught him,
he murdered them BECAUSE of what his church taught him!
Martin Luther told John List that murdering
would not separate John from God
"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you
think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a
meager sacrifice for our sins?
Let Your Sins Be Strong:
A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon
Letter no. 501, 1 August 1521,
"Luther's Correspondence", Lutheran
Publication Society, Philadelphia, 1918, II, p.50
Donna Kupp
http://groups.google.com/group/Freetruth?hl=en,
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/show.php?i=630302&cat=0
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
gabriel
<dk...@charter.net> wrote:
: Antinomian, let's talk about a man named John List...
First of all I can only ask you to please notice you continue to
avoid answering the question:
** Have you not sinned at all since you've been saved? **
You continue to avoid that question to clarify the doctrine you
are teaching, and this points to one of two things:
[1] You *have* sinned occasionally since your profession of faith
in Christ, and yet *do* believe if you sin even once you are not
really saved, hence are trying to *hide* the fact that you've
sinned (which of course is futile, as God knows all about it), or
[2] You are being mislead and know that every Christian will
stumble from time to time, including yourself, but you still try
to falsely teach that if a person sins at all they are not and
never were saved.
So again: have you not sinned at all since you believe you were
saved?
:
: John List was a "Christian".
:
: John List was a Lutheran.
:
: John List believed everything you say.
:
: John List murdered his whole family and sent them to heaven.
:
: According to the doctrines you teach,
: John List was theologically correct.
Not true. The example you give of John List is not saved. John
list is still living in unrepentant, wicked sin (to say the
least). He can "say" he's sorry, but even human beings can judge
the heart of this man: there's no way a saved person is going to
murder over and over again.
1 John 2:3-4 KJV
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The interpretation not being if you sin one time that
automatically means you're not saved. The interpretation being
"keepeth not" - a person that is committing sin and clearly does
not care in the heart no matter what words come out of their
mouth. God knows the heart, and it's safe to say a human being
can even see that a mass murderer who is supposedly a Christian
before doing such things was a liar and the truth was not in him.
:
: After all, John List believed that "Jesus paid it all",
: John was sorry that he had murdered. John knew he had done
: wrong and had the faith to believe he could make his
: peace with God because Jesus died even for him.
:
: Let me ask you a question:
:
: How many times can John List murder his family and still be
: under the blood of Christ? Seventy times seven, you say?
: What nonsense!
So, Donna, are you claiming you have remained perfectly sinless
since being saved? It would help clarify what you try to teach by
showing to what extreme you're talking about.
You've always followed the greatest commandment and loved God
with ALL your heart, mind, soul, and strength? You've done
absolutely NO work, even cooking food, on every single Sabbath
day since being saved? If you failed to do that even once, you've
sinned. Have you not lusted even once? Have you not coveted
someone else's possessions even once? To have done any of that
even once is sin.
See the problem is people taking a single verse and giving it a
private interpretation without checking what other scriptures say
about it. We're supposed to compare scripture with scripture to
make sure we know what a verse is really saying (and more
importantly *not* saying), and even checking the Greek and Hebrew
words for further clarification.
2 Peter 1:20 KJV
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of
any private interpretation.
1 John 2:1-4 KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin
not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous:
(pointing out here to believers that "if ye sin")
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours
only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
(if we strive to keep them and pray for God's strength to help us
do so)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(if a person is living in unrepentant, willful sin)
If we live in continuous sin, clearly from the heart not really
having repented, then this is what John is referring to - and
only God can accurately judge the heart. But if a person commits
an occasional sin (after all, we still have the fallen nature of
man inside us) and clearly hates they did so, confesses to God,
and is striving through prayer to God to keep from repeating it
in the future, this is what John is talking about when he wrote
to believers saying "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the
Father".
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us.
(if a person claims they are sinless)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us.
(this is a person who claims they have never sinned since being
saved)
:
: The thing that you and John List have never grasped is the fact
: that forgiveness (justification) is not synonymous with
: inheriting eternal life. That is why Paul said to
: the (justified) Galatians :
:
: "I warn you as I warned you before that those
: who DO such things
: shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
: Gal 5:21
:
: The Galatians were believers but it was what they DID
: that determined whether they would inherit the kingdom of God or not.
Unintentional or not, by saying that you are believing and also
teaching a false gospel of works, that "what they *did*" earned
them inheritance of the kingdom of God. No one can *do* anything
to inherit the kingdom of God. It is a gift of God by grace. We
don't do anything to earn it, we don't do anything to maintain it
lest we lose it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that **not of
yourselves**: it is the gift of God:
9 **Not of works**, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5-7 KJV
5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done**, but
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of
regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our
Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.
Proverbs 14:12 KJV
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.
To think we need to add to what Jesus Christ did is to make the
cross of Christ to none effect. How arrogant we are if we believe
we need to add to what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross to
earn or maintain our salvation - our entry into the kingdom of
God!
Isaiah 64:6 KJV
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our
righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf;
and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Here we see how even Paul writes about the struggle with avoiding
sin.
Romans 7:14-24 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I
not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in
me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no
good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform
that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but
sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is
present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body
of this death?
:
: The terrible tragedy of John List is that he did not
: murder his family in spite of what his church taught him,
: he murdered them BECAUSE of what his church taught him!
This is not true and you know it. Even most /unsaved/ people
would never actually kill their entire family, let alone even
other people. The fact is in the case you quote, it only clearly
shows there are many professing Christians who are nothing of the
kind. And a person who murders after claiming to be a Christian,
more so over and over again, was never a Christian.
So, the question one would ask: does this mean we can just sin
all we want? No.
[1] If we sin all the time and don't seem to care, this is where
the Bible tells us:
1 John 2:3-4 KJV
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We should be at least striving to keep His commandments, obeying
God out of love for Him.
[2] We will sometimes stumble and end up committing a sin. We
should get right back up, confess our sin to God, who is just to
forgive, and pray for God's strength and take some sort of action
to keep it from happening in the future.
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us.
In the end, God is the one who can say where someone's heart is:
if they've truly repented and are trying their best with God's
help, or if their repentance was just a sham and they continue to
live as a lost person, not caring they are knee deep in sin.
While Christians will clearly be striving from the heart to obey
God and all He commands, we must be careful to not cross the line
and teach a gospel of works, claiming a person can only inherit
the kingdom of God if they do the works of keeping the Law. This
is a mockery to what Christ did, claiming He was not strong
enough to save any of us, and we must instead do the work to earn
and maintain it.
May God Bless.
:
: Martin Luther told John List that murdering
Randy ®
gabriel <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> So, Donna, are you claiming you have remained perfectly sinless
> since being saved?
Of course she is:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:03:12 -0800 (PST),
In newsgroup "alt.christnet.christianlife",
Article
<d0f231e1-17f0-418e...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Subject: What does "saved" mean?
Donna Kupp <dk...@charter.net> wrote:
***********************************************************************
The apostle John wrote:
"1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
***********************************************************************
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the
person who is doing it. An old Chinese Proverb
***********************************************************************
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
Donna Kupp
connected with the teaching of eternal security. Deal with it.
Donna
Donna Kupp
::: Jesus is LORD :::
lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the
light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus
Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our
sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us
a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:6-10 KJV)
Donna Kupp dk...@charter.net wrote in
07d33398-91c6-4f6e...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com
::: Jesus is LORD :::
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever
liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John
11:25-26 KJV)
You are preaching a false gospel of works, and have been doing so for
years already. Your godhead is not the same as the Christian God,
either.
Jesus is LORD.
Donna Kupp dk...@charter.net wrote in
fc4cbaed-6343-49c0...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com
> Please stay on the subject. It is about John List and the tragedy
> connected with the teaching of eternal security. Deal with it.
>
> Donna
Get a life first!
--
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://the-beauty-of-the-psalms.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://bible-prophecy-and-revelation.blogspot.com/
gabriel
<dk...@charter.net> wrote:
: Please stay on the subject. It is about John List and the tragedy
: connected with the teaching of eternal security. Deal with it.
Hi Donna,
I addressed your example of John List, pointing to specific
scripture to address what you said about Him, detailing how he is
clearly not saved and you ignored it all.
Also, please notice you continue to avoid answering the question:
** Have you not sinned at all since you've been saved? **
You continue to avoid that question to clarify the doctrine you
are teaching, and given the seeming rudeness of your response,
this points to one of two things:
[1] You *have* sinned occasionally since your profession of faith
in Christ, and yet *do* believe if you sin even once you are not
really saved, hence are trying to *hide* the fact that you've
sinned (which of course is futile, as God knows all about it), or
[2] You are being mislead and know that every Christian will
stumble from time to time, including yourself, but you still try
to falsely teach that if a person sins at all they are not and
never were saved.
So again: have you not sinned at all since you believe you were
saved?
Meanwhile I pointed to numerous passages that contradict what you
claim.
Not to mention: why are Christians chastised if they do not sin
occasionally?
Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you
as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the
Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every
son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected
us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in
subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own
pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of
his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but
grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit
of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Why is the Lord chastising us if we live a perfect sinless life
after being saved?
To teach others that they must remain sinless to earn salvation
is to teach people doctrines that will lead to hell: they are not
trusting in *Christ alone* for salvation but instead trusting in
keeping the Law to earn salvation - that is adding to what Christ
did on the cross to earn their salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I implore you to think again about this false gospel of keeping
God's Law and never sinning to earn salvation - people will end
up in hell because they believed it and were trusting in keeping
God's Law to earn salvation. That's a gospel of works, not the
gospel of salvation by grace alone through Jesus Christ and His
atoning sacrifice on the cross.
Galatians 1:8-9 KJV
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let
him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any
other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be
accursed.
Yes, if a person sins over and over again habitually and does not
seem to care, they are in all likelihood not saved. But if a
Christian stumbles once in a while, and confesses their sins and
prays and God's strength and takes steps to help keep it from
happening again, that person would still be a Christian.
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us.
The defining characteristic: is a person in habitual sin, or do
they merely stumble on occasion, but confess and get back up all
the more determined to show their love for God's saving grace,
and pray for strength by the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep from
sinning again in like manner? The latter case is what a Christian
does, the former: a person who never repented in all likelihood.
May God Bless.
:
: Donna
I
> they are not
> trusting in *Christ alone* for salvation but instead trusting in
> keeping the Law to earn salvation
Please state where the historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth ever stated
that one must "trust in Christ alone for salvation".
Note that almost nothing in John's gospel was ever said by the historic time
/ space Jesus of nazareth so do not use it.
Likewise, the words of Paul are not the words of the historic Jesus of
Nazareth.
Then try to explain away .................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 19
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do
to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One
who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not
give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'d and 'love your
neighbor as yourself.'e"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and
give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow
me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great
wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a
rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter
the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
"Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God
all things are possible."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
(Mat 5:17-20) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the
prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. {18} For truly I tell
you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a
letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. {19} Therefore,
whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to
do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does
them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20}
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and
Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Kupp
The apostle Paul said:
"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith,
and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law
through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:30-31
Paul preached the same gospel as Jesus and the other apostles. The
problem comes from the unlearned and unstable who wrest his words and
the other scriptures to their own destruction. See II Peter 3:13-18
I
> Paul preached the same gospel as Jesus and the other apostles.
There is a difference between the real Paul and pseudo-Paul (the person who
wrote in Paul's name after his death).
The bhistoric time / space Jesus of Nazareth only went to Jews and advocated
turning from one's sins to God and following the same summary of the Law as
taught by the rabbi Hillel - love God and your neighbour.
Paul (as opposed to pseudo-Paul) was only interested in a dead Jesus (what
he calls "Christ crucified") and did not write much about Jesus' life. Dead
Jesus is seen as the payment for sin to appease God in the same way that
animal sacrifices supposedly appeased God in the past. The historic time /
space Jesus of Nazareth NEVER preached about "dead Jesus" / "Christ
crucified". All such references (mainly in the forgery of John's gospel)
are placed on the lips of Jesus toards the end of the 1st century to reflect
the church's thinking of the time.
> The problem comes from the unlearned and unstable who wrest his
> words and the other scriptures to their own destruction. See II Peter
> 3:13-18
You just quoted a forgery written 100-160 CE when the apostle Peter was
dead. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html
The problem comes from placing ALL the books of the New Testament on equal
footing. They are NOT all equal. Neither are the gspels all equal as both
Matthew and Luke are dependent upin Mark's gospel and John's gospel contains
next to nothing every stated by the historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth.
Verses within any book of the New Testament are likewise not all equal as
all the books have been edited. Posting a verse as proof is not even
evidence unless verified as authentic to the writer and / or to Jesus.
There is therefore a gradation of veracity and appropriateness of the New
Testament books .........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MOST AUTHENTIC
50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)
65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
85 CE
- Matthew's gospel (reliant upon Mark's gospel)
90 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea; reliant upon Mark's
gospel )
70 - 100 CE
- James
90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre (unreliable regarding the hsitoric time / space Jesus of
Nazareth)
50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)
LESS AUTHENTIC
50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)
80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)
INAUTHENTIC
80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter
90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
- John's Gospel
100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)
100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)
Wild Bill
"I" <me@home000000000000591> wrote in message
news:4b0c37d3$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
I applaud this post! You are absolutely correct. Most comfortable Christians
are appalled when they first learn of this information, due to the
brainwashing received from their mentors. Some simply refuse to believe the
Bible could have any problems.
>
>
>