Peter Terpstra
elle
sounds Tibetan, but you have a christian name. So I found this
extremely interesting and wonder where are you from and where do you
live now. I prefer this site because it seems much quieter.
"I think that religion can be of big benefit for everyone, but not the
dogma's
the dualism or fundamentalism, but the development of kindness,
compassion,
understanding and social interaction. Christianity can learn a lot
from the
truth of science, which some Christian sects still deny.
I have great faith in science and believe that science and religion
can come
together. And yes I'm a Atheist, I have no faith in the Cristian
concept of a
God who rules above us. Here in my room I have some fossils I found
in
Denmark many years ago, I cherished the theories of Charles Darwin
long time
ago in my hearth and Charles Darwin was truly a Christian.
I have hated Christianity for a long time, blaming it for everything
that
went wrong, now I grow older I see that this religion still suits a
lot of
people who can find there peace of mind there.
I'm not a Christian, never been. More than 1300 years ago Christianity
was
more or less forced with the sword to my native great-grandparents and
I have
a lot of compassion to them. They where not the barbarians as we can
read in
some Christian books.
With Kind Regards,
Peter "
I am absolutely fascinated by this remark,
"I'm not a Christian, never been. More than 1300 years ago
Christianity was
more or less forced with the sword to my native great-grandparents and
I have
a lot of compassion to them."
Could you explain the 1300 years ago?
Peter Terpstra
> Could you explain the 1300 years ago?
>
Thanks for your interest!
Its West European history.
Roughly estimated about the years.
Some aound the year 750 AC, the Frisians and the Saxen(Germans) got defeated
in some battle by the Christian Franks (from France), My native Christian
history starts from there. The Christian called the people before that date
hedens and barbarians. My native ancesters were obligated to convert to
Christianity otherwise they could lose there lives, old religious practice
was forbidden.
Since I was born I never felt like being a Christian and liked the story of
my pre-Christian ancesters since i read and heard about it. I'm not blaming
Christans for this but feel more like to honor all my ancesters.
With Kind Regards,
Peter
Peter Terpstra
> Could you explain the 1300 years ago?
>
Thanks for your interest!
Its West European history.
Roughly estimated about the years.
Somewere aound the year 750 AC, the Frisians and the Saxen(Germans) got
defeated in some battle by the Christian Franks (from France), My native
Christian history starts from there. The Christian called the people before
that date hedens and barbarians. My native ancesters were obligated to
convert to Christianity otherwise they could lose there lives, old religious
practice was forbidden. This people had an own writing (runescript) and a
native natureconnecting religion.
Since I was born I never felt like being a Christian and liked the story of
my pre-Christian ancesters since i read and heard about it. I'm not blaming
Christans for this but feel more like to honor all my ancesters and i like to
think about them.
With Kind Regards,
Peter
elle
> elle in <788252bf-dfcd-4202-8847-a65306caa...@a26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> :
Peter, so where did your ancestors come from? And how do you explain
your Tibetan name? I am not able to join up the dots.
Peter Terpstra
> Peter, so where did your ancestors come from? And how do you explain
> your Tibetan name? I am not able to join up the dots.
Terpstra is a Frisian name, that's also my ancestors origin.
Kind Regards,
Peter
Julian
Why do you have to be so argumentative? ;-)
elle
> elle in <7cf34479-c1ee-475e-a99f-343750010...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> :
Pity, I thought you were a Tibetan and knew the history of Tibet and
the Gelupa sect.
Peter Terpstra
> Pity, I thought you were a Tibetan and knew the history of Tibet and
> the Gelupa sect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug
P.
Peter Terpstra
>> Terpstra is a Frisian name, that's also my ancestors origin.
>
> Why do you have to be so argumentative? ;-)
How can I learn if I forget to make mistakes?
Peter
Nobody in Particular
"Be smart and learn from your mistakes.
Be wise and learn from mine."
-- Somebody (can't remember who)
Julian
"Oh, yes, I've learned from my mistakes
and I'm sure I can repeat them exactly."
(Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling)
norbu_tragri
> elle in <e55c806e-da96-4d6a-8d77-545f6ee71...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com> :
>
> > Pity, I thought you were a Tibetan and knew the history of Tibet and
> > the Gelupa sect.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug
>
> P.
i think elle might have been referring to the alternating control of
the Gelug by the Mongol
and Han empires with violent consequences? How the Gelug changed when
freed from that,
the ris.med movement, current situation, all that....
- n.
elle
> elle in <e55c806e-da96-4d6a-8d77-545f6ee71...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com> :
>
> > Pity, I thought you were a Tibetan and knew the history of Tibet and
> > the Gelupa sect.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug
>
> P.
PeterTerpstra, thank you for the link. I know a helluva lot about
Tibetan Buddhism that one can find on the internet, what I desperately
seek are the intimate views of (1) all the ex-serfs of Tibet, and (2)
views of liberated Tibetans with no affiliations, and finally, (3) the
views of exiled Tibetans. Since 1959, the archives on the internet is
pretty thin on present views. But I suppose this is not the right site
for it as no one seems to be serious investigators.
pe...@dharma.dnsdojo.org
> PeterTerpstra, thank you for the link. I know a helluva lot about
> Tibetan Buddhism that one can find on the internet, what I desperately
> seek are the intimate views of (1) all the ex-serfs of Tibet, and (2)
> views of liberated Tibetans with no affiliations, and finally, (3) the
> views of exiled Tibetans. Since 1959, the archives on the internet is
> pretty thin on present views. But I suppose this is not the right site
> for it as no one seems to be serious investigators.
Ex-serfs of Tibet?
The whole idea of Tibetan serfs come mostly from Chinese communist propaganda
and the misunderstanding of Tibetan culture not that Tibet was a paradise but
it had high moral values. The 13th Dalai Lama was the first one who wa trying
to modernise Tibet and increase HR standards.
Liberated Tibetans?
Since Tibet became occupied most Tibetans live under a harsh Chinese rule
without any freedom, Tibetan culture largely destroyed and many people in
prisons and how can a Tibetan be liberated if the occupier is less enlighted
than you are?
Maybe you know any?
The views of exiled Tibetan can be found all over the internet.
Maybe you can find something here:
http://tibetblogs.com/modules/feeds/
In exile, where Tibetans write:
http://www.tibetwrites.org/
Other Tibetan Blogs translated into English:
http://www.highpeakspureearth.com/
With kind Regards,
Peter
elle
> elle in <02ea5435-ece7-441d-b512-da538c7b0...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> :
Thank you Peter for your views from the Exiled Tibetans. It is too
well publicised already and there is nothing new. Dharamsala views are
fixed views and do not change. So the situation will never change?
Peter Terpstra
> Thank you Peter for your views from the Exiled Tibetans. It is too
> well publicised already and there is nothing new. Dharamsala views are
> fixed views and do not change. So the situation will never change?
Dharamsala views are bound to the development of freedom and suffering in
Tibet.
Sitiutions will change wen China will loosen up the ties (or claws) in puts on
Tibet and can find compassion towards Tibetans and their culture.
Kind Regards,
Peter
Peter Terpstra
> "Oh, yes, I've learned from my mistakes
> and I'm sure I can repeat them exactly."
>
> (Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling)
Repeating the same mistakes gives you opportunity to learn many different
things from it.
Kind Regards,
Peter
Peter Terpstra
ae33-1ea...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :
> i think elle might have been referring to the alternating control of
> the Gelug by the Mongol
> and Han empires with violent consequences? How the Gelug changed when
> freed from that,
> the ris.med movement, current situation, all that....
Would you like to tell about that?
Kind Regards,
Peter
norbu_tragri
> norbu_tragri in <4ad6aeea-cf52-4b4e-
> ae33-1ea983dd6...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :
>
> > i think elle might have been referring to the alternating control of
> > the Gelug by the Mongol
> > and Han empires with violent consequences? How the Gelug changed when
> > freed from that,
> > the ris.med movement, current situation, all that....
>
> Would you like to tell about that?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Peter
i don't have time for the next few days, but will do then. Tibet was
only free from about 700 yrs of alternating Han and Mongol powerplays
for a decade or two in the early part of the 1900s.
During that brief time they tried to modernize, exploring relations
with Russia and England amongst others ...
long story....
i'll post a time line of events in a few days.
- n.
Peter Terpstra
<3b9dc9db-58e7-43b5...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com> :
> i don't have time for the next few days, but will do then. Tibet was
> only free from about 700 yrs of alternating Han and Mongol powerplays
> for a decade or two in the early part of the 1900s.
> During that brief time they tried to modernize, exploring relations
> with Russia and England amongst others ...
> long story....
I will read it, thanks in advantage.!
Kind Regards,
Peter
elle
norbu_tragri I too will look forward with anticipation.
norbu_tragri
it might take a few days - i have a dozen or so time lines and brief
histories to go over
and i work full time and have a family to take care of. The brief
synopsis is that there have always been good people on all sides and
absolute monsters on all sides, folks who worked for peace, justice,
rights, and folks who worked for dominance, exploitation, and war from
the Tibetans, Mongolians, Han, Manchu, Napali, English, Russians, etc
- Tibet was a cross-road
for the trade routes, a border region, a source of mineral and forest
resources - a place
to be dominated and exploited...many times those "in power" in Tibet
were in no sense "in power"
at all but were just figure heads for foreign warlords...
i'll get these dozen or so timelines co-ordinated post the end result.
That won't be the end of any debate at all, of course, as there are
many conflicting accounts of 1956 or so on...
Please be patient with me though, family and work take almost all my
time, but this is an important topic, and i'll work on it...
- n.
elle
Of course there are many perspectives regarding Tibet. (1) From the
viewpoint of the Dalai Lama and his exiles, (2) From the viewpoint of
the PRC, (3) From the viewpoint of the Liberated Serfs of Tibet, (4)
From the viewpoint of the CIA or MI6 (5) From the viewpoint of India
or Pakistan or Russia and (6) from your or my viewpoint or (7) From
the viewpoint of trouble makers. Which category will you fall into?
norbu_tragri
i can't see myself falling into nearly any of those categories - their
ideologies
and historical revisions are slanted by wanting to win power now...
except maybe (6) "from your or my viewpoint" - i want to examine what
happened,
what is happening.
Politically, i suppose i lean towards socialism or communism, but i
think nearly any
system can work if there is good will and concern and care for all
beings/citizens.
Democracy has the flaw of elevating the lowest common beliefs, fascism
of promoting
arrogance and dis-empowering the people ruled over (and yes, the
current PRC seem that way
to me)...a constitutional democracy that protects minorities, an
elected government
with oversight/input by the most learned, multiple checks and
balances, means of appeal,
etc etc - a system with room for a lot of argument and debate...it
moves slow...
a system with good checks against corruption...
When the Russian Soviet system imploded via public distrust we got
instant billionaires
and crime lords as a result. The PRC are well along that route. There
are still good people
in the PRC, but i don't like the current trends - last week they
reluctantly reported 1,600 kids
with lead poising in one town from a factory's pollution...and these
stories seem to emerge every other week. As the folks high up in the
PRC rush towards being billionaires in the new
capitalist China there is more pollution, environmental devastation,
etc.
Western governments have the same problems with corruption, people who
want to get rich quick,
etc...
And then there is the racism, sexism, religion-discrimination - making
people
second-class citizens all over the world, in every country.
Governments that simply managed trade with other regions and took care
of their populace and
listened to their input would be a good start...
...i don't see a lot of that...i see a lot of people in governments
around the world
trying to get rich quick by bending the laws so some industry types
can get rich quick
and pass a small percent on to those politicos...
There are serfs now all over the world. There are many countries that
that still tacitly
allow slavery.
i don't want to white-wash over serfdom in the Mongol or Han dominated
Lhasa valley,
but what is being done to people today is where we can make a
difference...
After i post the historic time line i'd like to talk about the current
global situation...
Most of the blatant slavery is happening in Africa, but there are all
sorts of "Indentured
Servitude" happening all over the word.....It's abusive, unjust,
inhumane, etc words fail.
And most folks don't know it's happening.
- n.
elle
norbu tagri, A most thoughtful reply. Yes, "man" has always striven to
dominate. Perhaps that is what has what permitted "man" to evolve
over the millennia. But as people have become emancipated, they resent
being exploited. So either compromises are reached or there will be
violent consequences. Now, who is right and who is in the wrong
sometimes depends upon the era we are speaking of or the cultural
development of the populous at that moment in time.
As we are on a Tibetan Buddhist thread I will try to confine myself to
the problems associated with Tibet. I believe that the Gelupa Buddhist
sect was trapped in a time warp of the 7or8th century social culture
and could not move with the times. By this I mean the concepts of the
Tibetan Buddhists was trapped into the medieval period and their
perspectives were antiquated. And as you know, antiquated civilisation
often crumble and die away. Has this happened to Tibetan Buddhism and
the fate of the Dalai Lama?
Peter Terpstra
ad3e-395...@d4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> :
> Please be patient with me though, family and work take almost all my
> time, but this is an important topic, and i'll work on it...
That's alright.
P.
Peter Terpstra
> Of course there are many perspectives regarding Tibet. (1) From the
> viewpoint of the Dalai Lama and his exiles, (2) From the viewpoint of
> the PRC, (3) From the viewpoint of the Liberated Serfs of Tibet, (4)
> From the viewpoint of the CIA or MI6 (5) From the viewpoint of India
> or Pakistan or Russia and (6) from your or my viewpoint or (7) From
> the viewpoint of trouble makers. Which category will you fall into?
Do you think it will be possible for a Westerner to become a monk in Tibet and
fully dedicate to the Buddhadharma?
With Kind Regards,
Peter
Nobody in Particular
Possible but not probable.
elle
> elle in <884fe72a-2649-41d9-aba1-0377a6e61...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> :
I do not see why not. But his values are bound to be inflcuenced by
his background and therefore his concepts will be different from say a
Tibetan monk.
norbu_tragri
wrote:
> norbu_tragri in <60b52ba4-d2a2-43b1-
> ad3e-395e24adb...@d4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> :
>
> > Please be patient with me though, family and work take almost all my
> > time, but this is an important topic, and i'll work on it...
>
> That's alright.
>
> P.
i'm sorry it's taking so long to get to this. Getting one kid
packed up after the summer
to go back to University and another to High School while work is at
it's peak and i have a couple art commissions, wife is doing a
storyboard job, so i'm house-person/cook/etc as well.
i'll post as soon as i can - it's not an off-the-cuff thing - i have
to edit five or so time lines, look up new data on Mongolia and China
at these times to compare cultural norms,
etc etc - \
The quick overview from what i've seen for years is that these
cultures all accepted serfdom and slavery, as did historical India. In
some Mahayana texts there were specific injunctions
to treat all people well, specifics for wife, child, servant,
etc...For me the core texts stating the buddhadharma view are these
three short early suttas:
Sutta Nipata IV.5
Paramatthaka Sutta
title: "On Views"
A person who associates himself with certain views,
considering them as best and making them supreme in the world,
he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior;
therefore he is not free from contention (with others).
In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed,
he sees a profit for himself.
Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as
worthless.
Those skilled (in judgment) say that (a view becomes) a bond if,
relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior.
Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen,
heard or cognized,
nor upon ritual observances.
He should not present himself as equal to,
nor imagine himself to be inferior,
nor better than, another.
Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held
and not taking up (another),
he does not seek a support even in knowledge.
Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides.
He does not [have] recourse to a view at all.
In whom there is no inclination to either extreme,
for becoming or non-becoming,
here or in another existence,
for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the
doctrines assumed (by others).
Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the
least notion.
That brahmana who does not grasp at a view,
with what could he be identified in the world?
They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion);
doctrines are not accepted by them.
A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.
-- vv. 796-803
--------
Sutta Nipata IV.3
Dutthatthaka Sutta
title: "Corrupted"
There are some who dispute
corrupted at heart,
and those who dispute
their hearts set on truth,
but a sage doesn't enter
a dispute that's arisen,
which is why he is
nowhere constrained.
Now, how would one
led on by desire,
entrenched in his likes,
forming his own conclusions,
overcome his own views?
He'd dispute in line
with the way that he knows.
Whoever boasts to others, unasked,
of his practices, precepts,
is, say the skilled,
ignoble by nature --
he who speaks of himself
of his own accord.
But a monk at peace,
fully unbound in himself,
who doesn't boast of his precepts
-- "That's how I am" --
he, say the skilled,
is noble by nature --
he with no vanity
with regard to the world.
One whose doctrines aren't clean --
fabricated, formed, given preference
when he sees it to his own advantage --
relies on a peace
dependent
on what can be shaken.
Because entrenchments in views
aren't easily overcome
when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine --
in light of these very
entrenchments.
Now, one who is cleansed
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned conceit & illusion,
by what means would he go?
He isn't involved.
For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how -- in connection with what --
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,
has sloughed off every view
right here -- every one.
-------------
Sutta Nipata IV.12
Cula-viyuha Sutta
title "The Lesser Array"
Dwelling on
their own views,
quarreling,
different skilled people say:
'Whoever knows this, understands Dhamma.
Whoever rejects this, is
imperfect.'
Thus quarreling, they dispute:
'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.'
Which of these statements is true
when all of them say they are skilled?
If, in not accepting
an opponent's doctrine,
one's a fool, a beast of inferior discernment,
then all are fools
of inferior discernment --
all of these
who dwell on their views.
But if, in siding with a view,
one's cleansed,
with discernment made pure,
intelligent, skilled,
then none of them
are of inferior discernment,
for all of them
have their own views.
I don't say, 'That's how it is,'
the way fools say to one another.
They each make out their views to be true
and so regard their opponents as fools.
What some say is true
-- 'That's how it is' --
others say is 'falsehood, a lie.'
Thus quarreling, they dispute.
Why can't contemplatives
say one thing & the same?
The truth is one,
there is no second
about which a person who knows it
would argue with one who knows.
Contemplatives promote
their various personal truths,
that's why they don't say
one thing & the same.
But why do they say
various truths,
those who say they are skilled?
Have they learned many various truths
or do they follow conjecture?
Apart from their perception
there are no
many
various
constant truths
in the world.
Preconceiving conjecture
with regard to views,
they speak of a pair: true
& false.
Dependent on what's seen,
heard,
& sensed,
dependent on precepts & practices,
one shows disdain [for others].
Taking a stance on his decisions,
praising himself, he says,
'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.'
That by which
he regards his opponents as fools
is that by which
he says he is skilled.
Calling himself skilled
he despises another
who speaks the same way.
Agreeing on a view gone out of bounds,
drunk with conceit, thinking himself perfect,
he has consecrated, with his own mind,
himself
as well as his view.
If, by an opponent's word,
one's inferior,
the opponent's
of inferior discernment as well.
But if, by one's own word
one's an attainer-of-wisdom, enlightened,
no one
among contemplative's
a fool.
'Those who teach a doctrine other than this
are lacking in purity,
imperfect.'
That's what the many sectarians say,
for they're smitten with passion
for their own views.
'Only here is there purity,'
that's what they say.
'In no other doctrine
is purity,' they say.
That's how the many sectarians
are entrenched,
speaking firmly there
concerning their own path.
Speaking firmly concerning your own path,
what opponent here would you take as a fool?
You'd simply bring quarrels on yourself
if you said your opponent's a fool
with an impure doctrine.
Taking a stance on your decisions,
& yourself as your measure,
you dispute further down
into the world.
But one who's abandoned
all decisions
creates in the world
quarrels no more.
------------------
Clearly slavery and serfdom had no ground to stand on in the original
teachings.
While some later texts advise treating "servants" well, as family,
etc, others
note the hypocrisy of the whole social structure of the
time...Longchenpa, etc...
The dharma teaching were sometimes regarded and sometimes ignored from
India to China,
from region to region from generation to generation etc...
Maybe we can pick this topic up again in a few weeks? The topic has
been drifting around Usenet for a few years with more heat than light
and it would useful to have a sort of Panorama post of info that could
quoted later when the topic comes up again...a sort of open source FAQ
on the topic...
- n.
Peter Terpstra
<3b735cc4-6920-4dcd...@y10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> :
Sorry for answering so late!
I was thinking it over and over...
> i'm sorry it's taking so long to get to this. Getting one kid
> packed up after the summer
> to go back to University and another to High School while work is at
> it's peak and i have a couple art commissions, wife is doing a
> storyboard job, so i'm house-person/cook/etc as well.
Ah, thanks for this personnel information, you are making art yourself?
... and I have no idea what a storyboard job is :-)
> i'll post as soon as i can - it's not an off-the-cuff thing - i have
> to edit five or so time lines, look up new data on Mongolia and China
> at these times to compare cultural norms,
> etc etc - \
>
> The quick overview from what i've seen for years is that these
> cultures all accepted serfdom and slavery, as did historical India. In
> some Mahayana texts there were specific injunctions
> to treat all people well, specifics for wife, child, servant,
> etc...For me the core texts stating the buddhadharma view are these
> three short early suttas:
>
> Sutta Nipata IV.5
> Paramatthaka Sutta
> title: "On Views"
Thanks for the sutta's, i had printed them out and read them several times,
but could not really find the peace to study them. Seem to be some other kind
of sutra then I know more straight I thought. Personally I have read the
diamond sutra, the heart sutra, the vimalakirti sutra and some parts of the
Avatamsaka or flower ornament sutra.
These sutra's of yours seem to the same tone as I read the dhammapada.
p.e:
Restraint of the body is good. So is restraint of speech. Restraint of
mind is good, and so is restraint in everything. The bhikkhu who is
restrained in everything, is freed from all suffering. 361
> quarrels no more.
Yes quarreling does not belong to the dharma, that's an important thing.
What i read here is my interpretation and i should not make a difference in
mine and yours.
> Clearly slavery and serfdom had no ground to stand on in the original
> teachings.
And later teachings?
> While some later texts advise treating "servants" well, as family,
> etc, others
> note the hypocrisy of the whole social structure of the
> time...Longchenpa, etc...
Its hard to go back and think in the mind of that time, but what do we do with
history today? I think that history is important but it should not be like a
stone around the neck, like many of my friends are German and feel guilty
about the war. Tibetan history is a proud history but but I'm also curious
about the forms of slavery, serfdom and in what grade without falling into
Chinese propaganda.
... and I do not know Longchenpa so well, becasue I'm not studying Tibetan
Buddhism but Zen.
> The dharma teaching were sometimes regarded and sometimes ignored from
> India to China, from region to region from generation to generation etc...
Til the nineteenth century, slavery was quit common in western country's, the
Netherlands were I live had colonized country's like Indonesia and Surinam
were slavery and serfdom was our way to make profit.
> Maybe we can pick this topic up again in a few weeks?
That's alright but the next weeks I'm gone ...
> The topic has been drifting around Usenet for a few years with more heat
> than light.
I have not been there but I would like to bring some light and relief :-)
Can I still find anything of it?
I'm wondering if I should order a old book "The opening of Tibet" by Percival
Landon written in 1904.
Here you can read some pages:
http://tinyurl.com/m6ewbq
or:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=WNW5wDY3qDgC&printsec=frontcover&hl
=en&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
> and it would useful to have a sort of Panorama post of info that could
> quoted later when the topic comes up again...a sort of open source FAQ
> on the topic...
And where should that FAQ be placed?
I have here some web-space which I can offer.
With warm regards,
Peter
norbu_tragri
These are "first turning of the wheel of dharma" sutras. The "second
turning of the wheel of dharma" sutras are the Prajna-paramita sutras,
the "third turning of the wheel of dharma"
sutras the Lankavatara, Avatamsaka, etc.
The first turning of the wheel of dharma was about the basics of view
path and practice,
the pragmatic approach. The second turning examined the arbitrary
emptiness of all concepts.
The third turning that that emptiness of concept was not emptiness of
wahat just is, sheer experience - that there is still a lighting-up of
everything - that awareness is always there - tathagatagharba...sort
of comes back to the first turning...let be and just look to find out
what is going on. They all have the common ground of examining how we
get stuck in our stories and dramas and cause ourselves suffering.
> Personally I have read the
> diamond sutra, the heart sutra, the vimalakirti sutra
Those are Pajnaparamita sutras, "Second Turning Sutras", that point up
how language and
concepts fail to describe life and lead to dead-ends.
> and some parts of the
> Avatamsaka or flower ornament sutra.
Those are "Third Turning Sutras" - the point of their flowey language
being that everyone is
awake from the get go and all we have to do is let go of our
confusion...
> These sutra's of yours seem to the same tone as I read the dhammapada.
Yep, the dhammapada is a "First Turning Sutra". Do note that that
these designations
do not mean that 3rd, 1st, or 2nd are superior to each other.
Without practicing the first turning sutras there is little chance of
understanding
the prajnaparamita sutras.
So we start with the four truths, the eightfold path, etc,
peacefulness and mindfulness
practice, vows to not cause harm to ourselves or others, the four
immeasurables - friendliness, compassion, rejoicing, and
equnimity...etc. Not to judge each other as superior or inferior or
even equal - not comparing/judging at all... First turning.
Second turning we examine the emptiness of concepts and words. The
Western world has caught up with that with General Semantics,
Transactional Analysis, Chaos Theory, etc etc.
Third turning sutras tend to refer to letting yourself be to discover
that honest awareness has always been there without any cooking it up,
nor can it be shut down...this returns to the first
turning teachings on peacefulness/insight and sheer mindfulness.
Yep, that's a lot of JARGONESE, but i'm trying to be brief, so just a
rosetta-stone...
The point of all these approaches is to find freedom from suffering,
to liberate yourself and others from the tar-baby stuck imbroiled
agonizings we tend to do about our stories about ourselves.
It doesn't mean we shut down when we see that others are buying into
their own bs dramas -
that's in the first turning basic practices : friendliness,
compassion, rejoicing, equanimity.
(The second turning sutras are quite explicit on this - empty of
concept does not mean nihilism and no activity - far from it - open
heart <danaparamita> is the basis of the second turning sutras.
>
> p.e:
> Restraint of the body is good. So is restraint of speech. Restraint of
> mind is good, and so is restraint in everything. The bhikkhu who is
> restrained in everything, is freed from all suffering. 361
That's not just the bhikkhu. The ten vows of lay person follow these
same
three principles. "Restraint" here is not some abstract principle - it
means
that you vow to not cause harm to others or yourself. Not causing harm
to anyone is the basic starting point of the path...honesty follows
that...motive and hard path....
>
> > quarrels no more.
>
> Yes quarreling does not belong to the dharma, that's an important thing.
Questions, debate, all that, yes - quarrels, put downs, etc no.
> What i read here is my interpretation and i should not make a difference in
> mine and yours.
>
> > Clearly slavery and serfdom had no ground to stand on in the original
> > teachings.
>
> And later teachings?
Not that i know of.
Slavery was common in China, with inhumane cruel punishments...i don't
know how
buddhists there excused it or if they taught against it...
>
> > While some later texts advise treating "servants" well, as family,
> > etc, others
> > note the hypocrisy of the whole social structure of the
> > time...Longchenpa, etc...
>
> Its hard to go back and think in the mind of that time, but what do we do with
> history today? I think that history is important but it should not be like a
> stone around the neck, like many of my friends are German and feel guilty
> about the war. Tibetan history is a proud history but but I'm also curious
> about the forms of slavery, serfdom and in what grade without falling into
> Chinese propaganda.
> ... and I do not know Longchenpa so well, becasue I'm not studying Tibetan
> Buddhism but Zen.
>
> > The dharma teaching were sometimes regarded and sometimes ignored from
> > India to China, from region to region from generation to generation etc...
>
> Til the nineteenth century, slavery was quit common in western country's, the
> Netherlands were I live had colonized country's like Indonesia and Surinam
> were slavery and serfdom was our way to make profit.
>
> > Maybe we can pick this topic up again in a few weeks?
>
> That's alright but the next weeks I'm gone ...
When/If you come back then. Take care of what needs care...
>
> > The topic has been drifting around Usenet for a few years with more heat
> > than light.
>
> I have not been there but I would like to bring some light and relief :-)
> Can I still find anything of it?
>
> I'm wondering if I should order a old book "The opening of Tibet" by Percival
> Landon written in 1904.
>
> Here you can read some pages:http://tinyurl.com/m6ewbq
> or:http://books.google.nl/books?id=WNW5wDY3qDgC&printsec=frontcover&hl
> =en&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
>
> > and it would useful to have a sort of Panorama post of info that could
> > quoted later when the topic comes up again...a sort of open source FAQ
> > on the topic...
>
> And where should that FAQ be placed?
> I have here some web-space which I can offer.
There is a old usenet faq site, or just as a post like this tagged on
google groups,
otherwise your website...usenet tends to spill over to posters
sites...
>
> With warm regards,
>
> Peter
:)
- n.
Peter Terpstra
<63999c00-0232-48eb...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com> :
>> Yes quarreling does not belong to the dharma, that's an important thing.
>
> Questions, debate, all that, yes - quarrels, put downs, etc no.
Is there a non-dualistic path in that possible, one that save's all sentient
beings?
Kind Regards,
Peter
Peter Terpstra
<63999c00-0232-48eb...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com> :
[...]
Thanks for explaining about the first, second and third turning of the
dharmawheel.
What kind of Bhuddhist practice do you do? Did you grew up with it?
> There is a old usenet faq site, or just as a post like this tagged on
> google groups,
I've seen that one, found it a bit short :-)
> otherwise your website...usenet tends to spill over to posters
> sites...
What do you mean with that?
Peter
norbu_tragri
>
> [...]
>
> Thanks for explaining about the first, second and third turning of the
> dharmawheel.
>
> What kind of Bhuddhist practice do you do? Did you grew up with it?
i started practice around 15, and am about to turn 51...lame symmetry
there...\
Practiced with teachers in many traditions, Theravadin, Zen, Nyingma,
Hua-Yen, Sakya, Kagu, Nichiren, as well as Christian, Jewesh, Shinto,
humanist, athiest,
etc - different ways of describing life - the same life/heart is there
- just differnt images and words...read a bit about Navaho, Hopi,
Sikh, etc paths - the language and symbols change from area to
area...Not saying it's all the same, each tradition "at home" here or
there in life, awkward/stiff in other areas...
>
> > There is a old usenet faq site, or just as a post like this tagged on
> > google groups,
>
> I've seen that one, found it a bit short :-)
>
> > otherwise your website...usenet tends to spill over to posters
> > sites...
>
> What do you mean with that?
That you could start a website to focus on these issues/paths etc...
"Website" sounded big a few years ago, but nowdays nearly everyone has
a page or two
on line about recipes, exercise, etc, thousands of dharma sites...
or maybe you feel a bit like i do that we just notice what happens on
the news groups, dance,
and let it platy out...no particular theory or resolution (my Shinto
and Bonpa training i guess, what is good will arise if people let
themselves be and just look at themselves, make friends with
themselves, etc...)
new aspect of homelessness?
>
> Peter
- n.
Peter Terpstra
a675-4b4d-9b9...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> :
>> What kind of Bhuddhist practice do you do? Did you grew up with it?
>
> i started practice around 15, and am about to turn 51...lame symmetry
> there...\
> Practiced with teachers in many traditions, Theravadin, Zen, Nyingma,
> Hua-Yen, Sakya, Kagu, Nichiren, as well as Christian, Jewesh, Shinto,
> humanist, athiest,
> etc - different ways of describing life - the same life/heart is there
> - just differnt images and words...read a bit about Navaho, Hopi,
> Sikh, etc paths - the language and symbols change from area to
> area...Not saying it's all the same, each tradition "at home" here or
> there in life, awkward/stiff in other areas...
Wauw, so many!
Is there a reason you practiced so many?
I read a youth-version of the bible when i was approximately 12 years old but
was no Christian for I very long time i told myself I was an atheist and maybe
I still am, but after my thirtieth I was not satisfied with that anymore and
start reading a many books from J. Krishnamurti, which I drank as if it was
honey, on the Internet I learned from the Dalai Lama about the four noble
truths (and got impressed by this outstanding teacher), the six paramita's,
also Thich Nhat Hanh found my interests and later Sogyal Rinpochee.
Since more then four years now I practice Japanese Zen Buddhism with a real
teacher, now I am forty-six and a half year old :-) .
>> > otherwise your website...usenet tends to spill over to posters
>> > sites...
>>
>> What do you mean with that?
>
> That you could start a website to focus on these issues/paths etc...
>
> "Website" sounded big a few years ago, but nowdays nearly everyone has
> a page or two
> on line about recipes, exercise, etc, thousands of dharma sites...
>
> or maybe you feel a bit like i do that we just notice what happens on
> the news groups, dance,
I'm not sure, if I can keep my patience I believe in it.
> and let it platy out...no particular theory or resolution (my Shinto
> and Bonpa training i guess, what is good will arise if people let
> themselves be and just look at themselves, make friends with
> themselves, etc...)
I guess that's important, maybe the only way to contribute to the positive.
The poisons of the self can easily be triggered
I also like to challenge and to advocate for human rights, which is maybe my
main goal.
> new aspect of homelessness?
Non trusting, dharma does not stick to anything, I believe.
Peter
norbu_tragri
> norbu_tragri in <a9a04c93-
> a675-4b4d-9b9c-11d1dfd79...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com> :
>
> >> What kind of Bhuddhist practice do you do? Did you grew up with it?
>
> > i started practice around 15, and am about to turn 51...lame symmetry
> > there...\
> > Practiced with teachers in many traditions, Theravadin, Zen, Nyingma,
> > Hua-Yen, Sakya, Kagu, Nichiren, as well as Christian, Jewesh, Shinto,
> > humanist, athiest,
> > etc - different ways of describing life - the same life/heart is there
> > - just differnt images and words...read a bit about Navaho, Hopi,
> > Sikh, etc paths - the language and symbols change from area to
> > area...Not saying it's all the same, each tradition "at home" here or
> > there in life, awkward/stiff in other areas...
>
> Wauw, so many!
...odd, i see it as so few...i would love to be able to meet everyone
on earth,
learn every tradition, every way to hug, to punch friendship in a
shoulder, etc etc...To learn every language of the heart, to learn
even the language of the birds as the Buddha is said to
have done in the old poems...
> Is there a reason you practiced so many?
i didn't have a map. i never found a map. by the time maps were
available i didn't need them?
breath follows breath, heel sole toe....heel sole toe... walks on...
> I read a youth-version of the bible when i was approximately 12 years old but
> was no Christian
Something like for me. i got sent to Methodist sunday school when 4
etc, smelled hypocrisy
there (i have memories back to 2 yrs old, colour and patterns of
carpet, 3 - escaping from crib, sleep walking on railroad tracks,
escaping again to have my left hand cut by carpet tacks,
a warning system that worked very well, i still have the scar between
my third and little finger...
Anyhoo, an aunt took me from the Methodists to the
Swedenbourgs...around 8...saw same hypocrisy...around 12 turned from
Christian society/dogma to see what else was out there,
but obviously ill equiped to do so...Was attracted to the old "Pagan"
ways, especially the Norse, the sense that divinity unfolded in the
world like a rainbow of many colours rather
than one grey aloof faceless god...but couldn't see thor or sif or
odin or freya as more than
a myth....Found the rainbow idea again in Zarathustrian
teachings...studied that for a few years, but 14 on that started to
meld with Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, etc teachings i was finding...
by 15 or 16 something struck me about the Buddha's
teachings...something about just being open to examining every
possible idea, to look at how things came about, to just look...
Studies all buddhadharma traditions for a few years, eventually
finding a living teacher
i wanted to study with. That was Chogyam Trungpa. Kagyu, Nyingma, and
Zen (Suzuki Roshi was a friend of Trungpa, their students studied with
each other, Suzuki Roshi's photo was on our
shrines, he was our teacher...this wasn't a sectarian thiny
happening...)
Practiced with the the dharmadhatu folks for about six years, into my
twenties, then decided that i had grown up to be an adult in that
tradition, but i wanted to see what other traditions were out there,
was this just a cult or what? Was studying psychology and philosophy
in
college at that time - asked my meditation instructor if it would be
okay to take a few years off to study western and other traditions -
far from saying "there is only one true way" she
said, yes - many folks like to do that, with blessings, i was shot
loose, come home when you want to...
So off i went and learned about many traditions...around this time
Trungpa encourged his students to study shinto, bon, and native
american traditions. i looked int the hisrory of the
Kagyu and found there was this this tradition going back about 150
years, the "Ris.med",
"no one way" movement that encouraged people to learn other
traditions, not to try to
sludge them all into one mud, but to see the unique insight of each,
in their own terms...
Everything doesn't have to reduced to one dogma or one truth...we have
rainbows of ideas
and language to describe life without trying to deaden life down into
any little definition.
> for I very long time i told myself I was an atheist and maybe
> I still am, but after my thirtieth I was not satisfied with that anymore and
> start reading a many books from J. Krishnamurti, which I drank as if it was
> honey, on the Internet I learned from the Dalai Lama about the four noble
> truths (and got impressed by this outstanding teacher), the six paramita's,
> also Thich Nhat Hanh found my interests and later Sogyal Rinpochee.
> Since more then four years now I practice Japanese Zen Buddhism with a real
> teacher, now I am forty-six and a half year old :-) .
i think of myself as just a human first, part of this worlds eco
system,
as rational/intuitive, athiest as rational, but knowing that intuitive
poetry
is as much the guts of life as the rational...
The Shinto and Bon traditions tie into this...Navaho, Hopi, etc....
>
> >> > otherwise your website...usenet tends to spill over to posters
> >> > sites...
>
> >> What do you mean with that?
>
> > That you could start a website to focus on these issues/paths etc...
>
> > "Website" sounded big a few years ago, but nowdays nearly everyone has
> > a page or two
> > on line about recipes, exercise, etc, thousands of dharma sites...
>
> > or maybe you feel a bit like i do that we just notice what happens on
> > the news groups, dance,
>
> I'm not sure, if I can keep my patience I believe in it.
>
> > and let it platy out...no particular theory or resolution (my Shinto
> > and Bonpa training i guess, what is good will arise if people let
> > themselves be and just look at themselves, make friends with
> > themselves, etc...)
>
> I guess that's important, maybe the only way to contribute to the positive.
> The poisons of the self can easily be triggered
> I also like to challenge and to advocate for human rights, which is maybe my
> main goal.
>
> > new aspect of homelessness?
>
> Non trusting, dharma does not stick to anything, I believe.
Just so...but do note that in the non-sticking the light of the
already awake is just there.
There is nothing to be cranked-up, or particularly rejected...
Obviously , but still...
Heee! You got my childhood story :)!
>
> Peter
Peter Terpstra
<4cc3f29a-7760-4a86...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :
[...]
Thanks for the response, I loved your words.
> Suzuki Roshi's photo was on our shrines, he was our teacher...this wasn't a
> sectarian thiny happening...)
After the death of Suzuki Roshi, Chogyam Trungpa, became friends with Taizan
Maezumi Roshi, that's why I see a photo on the shrine of my temple of Chogyam
Trungpa. I have read a few book of master Trungpa.
> Everything doesn't have to reduced to one dogma or one truth...we have
> rainbows of ideas and language to describe life without trying to deaden
> life down into any little definition.
And when do we need to speak up?
[...]
> Just so...but do note that in the non-sticking the light of the
> already awake is just there.
>
> There is nothing to be cranked-up, or particularly rejected...
> Obviously , but still...
Still?
> Heee! You got my childhood story :)!
Childhood story's can also be deceptive I think, Am I still that or is it just
a reflection of the mind?
Peter
Peter Terpstra
<4cc3f29a-7760-4a86...@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :
[...]
Thanks for the response, I loved your words.
> Suzuki Roshi's photo was on our shrines, he was our teacher...this wasn't a
> sectarian thiny happening...)
After the death of Suzuki Roshi, Chogyam Trungpa, became friends with Taizan
Maezumi Roshi, that's why I see a photo on the shrine of Chogyam Trungpa in my
temple. I have read a few book of master Trungpa.
> Everything doesn't have to reduced to one dogma or one truth...we have
> rainbows of ideas and language to describe life without trying to deaden
> life down into any little definition.
And when do we need to speak up?
[...]
> Just so...but do note that in the non-sticking the light of the
> already awake is just there.
>
> There is nothing to be cranked-up, or particularly rejected...
> Obviously , but still...
Still?
> Heee! You got my childhood story :)!
Childhood story's can also be deceptive I think, Am I still that or is it just