The number of beings.
ChrisC
locked in an eternal cycle forever. Logic dictates that the is a
finite number of beings and entities in this multiverse. They are
being re-born continually. Except when someone attains Nirvana they
are released from the cycle. So using logic eventually after eons and
eons everyone is destined to be enlightened. Leading to there being no
more beings in Samsara. Eventually there will be no one left. Or will
there be, is there new cycles of birth starting from the beginning?
Are there new entities, beings or persons whatever entering Samsara
all the time? If so where are they created and where do they come
from.
Why does logic always make religion confusing?
norbu_tragri
> If the universe or the multiverse within the 6 realms is eternal and
> locked in an eternal cycle forever.
"If..."
The buddhadharma teaches no such thing.
> Logic dictates that the is a
> finite number of beings and entities in this multiverse. They are
> being re-born continually. Except when someone attains Nirvana they
> are released from the cycle.
If the buddhadharma taught that, what you say would follow.
> So using logic eventually after eons and
> eons everyone is destined to be enlightened. Leading to there being no
> more beings in Samsara. Eventually there will be no one left. Or will
> there be, is there new cycles of birth starting from the beginning?
> Are there new entities, beings or persons whatever entering Samsara
> all the time? If so where are they created and where do they come
> from.
Here is a story:
"Joe smith was born. Ralph Smith died. Fred Smith Awoke."
Now, has any one from that story actually been born, died, awoke?
No, because it's just a story.
In life we get caught-up in stories about ourselves, stories we create
around others,
winning, losing, stuck or enlightened.
If we drop the stories is everyone suddenly not-born, not-dead, awake,
not awake, etc?
Are there numbers of these folks who do one or the other when we drop
our stories
about them?
The buddhadharma is about looking at our stories - our stories about
ourselves,
about others - how we get caught-up in these stories and cause
suffering to ourselves,
cause suffering to others. If we drop the stories has anyone ceased to
be, has the
fiction of ourself we told ourself attained some awake thingamy?
Here's how the Buddha described that:
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not
in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having
been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I
not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in
the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else
he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not?
What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it
bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view
arises in him:
(1) The view I have a self arises in him as true & established,
(2) or the view I have no self ...
(3) or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive
self ...
(4) or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-
self ...
(4) or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive
self arises in him as true & establish
(5) or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the
knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad
actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal,
not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity.
This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion
of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of
views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from
birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"The well-instructed noble disciple -- who has regard for noble ones,
is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men
of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- discerns
what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for
attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for
attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention...
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination
of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way
leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in
this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt,
and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the
fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."
[MN 2]
By whom was wrought this being?
Where is the being's maker?
Where does the being arise?
Where is the being stopped?
Why do you harp on 'being'?
lt is a false view for you.
A mere heap of samkharas,
this Here no 'being' is got at.
For as when the parts are rightly set
We utter the word 'chariot',
So when there are the khandhas
By convention, 'there is a being' we say.
For it is simply suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that perishes and wanes,
Not other than suffering comes to be,
Naught else than suffering is stopped.
[SN I, 134 ; 35]
"And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth
or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to
declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative
man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is
described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata
exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not
exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only
stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
[SN XXII.86]
Regarding the story of the cosmos being eternal etc:
Another wanderer said, "The cosmos is finite..."... "The cosmos is
infinite..."... "The soul & the body are the same..."... "The soul is
one thing and the body another..."... "After death a Tathagata
exists..."... "After death a Tathagata does not exist..."... "After
death a Tathagata both does & does not exist..."... "After death a
Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything
otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have."
When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the
wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal.
Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort
of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention
or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been
brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated.
Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed,
dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is
stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits
himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)
"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated,
willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is
inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am,
is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it
actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it
actually is present."
AN. X. 93
"'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is
worthless,' is a viewpoint. 'The cosmos is not eternal...'... 'The
cosmos is finite...'...'The cosmos is infinite...'...'The soul & the
body are the same...'...'The soul is one thing and the body
another...'...'After death a Tathagata exists...'...'After death a
Tathagata does not exist...'...'After death a Tathagata both does &
does not exist...'...'After death a Tathagata neither does nor does
not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a
viewpoint. The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the
taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the
uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing
that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I
don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see."
AN. X. 96
Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed
One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an
exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he
was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master
Gotama, does everything exist?"
"'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."
"Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?"
"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology,
brahman."
"Then is everything a Oneness?"
"'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."
"Then is everything a Manyness?"
"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman.
Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the
middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From
consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-
form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six
sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a
requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite
condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes
clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition
comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow,
lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the
origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of
fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation
of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the
cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.
From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of
contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the
cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From
the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.
From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the
cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire
mass of stress & suffering."
"Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place
upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the
way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that
those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama --
through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to
Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks.
May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him
for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
SN. XII. 48
"If, when a release is used for release, unskillful qualities grow and
skillful qualities wane, then I tell you that that sort of release is
not to be used for release. But if, when a release is used for
release, unskillful qualities wane and skillful qualities grow, then I
tell you that that sort of release is to be used for release."
AN. X. 94
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to
dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being
fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-
aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not
to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being
unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This
is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's
instruction.'"
AN. VIII. 53
(The Wholesome and the Unwholesome)
3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the
root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome,
in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has
perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true
Dhamma.
4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the
unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome?
Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is
unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false
speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech
is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome;
ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the
unwholesome.
5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the
unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of
the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.
6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings
is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome;
abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome;
abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious
speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome;
abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome;
non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the
wholesome.
7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the
wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root
of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.
8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the
root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome,
he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the
underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency
to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and
arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In
that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is
straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at
this true Dhamma."
MN. 9
"And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain
person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination,
the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views.
When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination,
the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views,
then -- with regard to views -- he is obsessed with view-passion, view-
delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever,
view-fascination, view-craving. This is the yoke of sensuality, the
yoke of becoming, & the yoke of views.
AN. IV. 10
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the
view 'the cosmos is eternal...'... 'after death a Tathagata neither
exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is
worthless,' he says '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback,
then, is Master Gotama thus entirely dissociated from each of these
ten positions?"
"Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of
views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of
views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress,
despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion,
cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away
with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin,
such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its
disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications...
such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.'
Because of this, I say, a Tathagata -- with the ending, fading out,
cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all
excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit --
is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does
he reappear?"
"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."
"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."
"...both does & does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"...neither does nor does not reappear."
"...doesn't apply."
"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk
reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear...
neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in
each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this
point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier
conversation is now obscured."
"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep,
Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil,
refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by
the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other
satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know.
MN. 72
"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is
fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is
discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is
discernible.
"These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated.
"Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is
unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away
is discernible, no alteration while staying is discernible.
"These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is
unfabricated."
AN. III. 47
> Why does logic always make religion confusing?
That is another topic. Here i just wanted to say that the views you
ascribed to samsara
and nirvana and beings are not those taught by the Buddha, so it's
sort of a non-issue
regarding finite being-things being stuck or liberated. That's about
stories and dramas
we get caught-up in.
Logic is a rather fun topic...If you want to explore that together,
could be interesting...
- n. :)