Flat Affect (was: Dark Night of The Soul)
DharmaTroll
grail...@xnetsource.comm wrote:
> Punnadhammo Bhikkhu writes:
>
> "Kathy listed a number of side-effects, but missed one that I
> have read about. It is technically called "flattening of
> affects" and this worries me a lot."
>
> Punnadhammo, can you elaborate more on this "flattening of
> affects"? (ie, what exactly is it, the symptoms or what it
Flat Affect is a symptom of Depression, rather than of medication.
It is one of the signs that one is in a depressive state.
The definition of flat affect is: "Flat affect: absence of or
diminution in the amount of emotional tone or outward emotional
reaction typically shown under similar circumstances."
According to NIMH (The National Institute of Mental Health):
"'Flat affect' is a hallmark of depression; it refers to the
characteristic monotone voice, lack of normal reactivity and lack of
animation."
Depression creates a generalized slowing in thoughts, speech and
movement. Aches and pains that were absent or tolerable before the
depression may become exaggerated during the depressed state and
difficult to endure. And depressed people tend to be preoccupied with
particular thoughts or issues that were not bothersome before the
depression. Their thoughts may be drawn like a magnet to recurrent
unpleasant themes such as death and all efforts to think about
something else seem to fail. Hence the flat or blunted affect, you see.
> In your mentioning about the zombie like effect of drugs,
> even killing or nullifying the states of joy,
Again, this is the effect of depression. The drugs remove this effect,
remember, rather than cause it. That's why the Bhante calls them
"happy pills". They could be called, "get unstuck from quicksand so you
can walk on solid ground again" pills instead, perhaps.
> I would like to say this from my own experience in working at
> the Adult Day Care: every now and then some of the participants
> (those who have dementia/alzheimers, etc) will become VERY difficult
My mother is a client of an Adult Day Care center for Alzheimers,
and she is very, very difficult without anti-psychotics. That has
nothing to do with medication given for treatment of depression.
> Punnadhammo Bhikkhu writes: (in reference to DT's symptons list):
> "I experienced all of them in a very severe form except for appetite
> problems."
>
> I, too, experienced many of those "symptoms".
We all have, Kathy. It's a matter of degree. Genetic inherited chemical
imbalances will cause an extreme level of these symptoms. Every single
one of the simtoms of ADHD, in fact, have been experienced by all of
us, but the intensity and duration are what distinguish it from normal
mood swings and spacing out and laziness, etc. We can track down the
genetic links, and just like depression and schizophrenia, they can be
traced to genetic origins.
> Also, I would like to say that I have read an article in
> HINDUISM TODAY which mentioned a specific temple in India
> where people with mental illness go for healing/cure..the
> article mentioned that the people do ritual to The Goddess
> (Divine Mother) and even are healed of alzheimers! I have
> never ever before read ANY WHERE that ANY ONE with alzhimers
> was healed, and found this quite amazing and astonishing.
The fact that you believe every bloody tabloid article you read, Kathy,
only says something astonishing and amazing about the level of *your*
gullibility and lack of critical thinking. Try reading _Flim Flam_ by
James Randi. It will transform your life. I'm serious.
Someone once pointed out to me that such New-Age tabloids and religious
magazines boasting of miracles tend to have false statements and claims
in every single one of their headlines. Amazing that you would actually
work in the reality of a place like my mom's Day Care Center and be so
lost in talk of miracles, Divine Mommies, inner planes, god, and souls.
You know damned well that nobody has done "Divine Mother" rituals and
because of it has been magically cured of Alzheimers, or even the
common cold. Act your age, Kathy. You're not a wide-eyed teenage blonde
bimbo anymore.
> I wish more studies could be done along these lines
Real studies are being done, that have to do with the causes of
Alzheimers, rather that quackery and prostrations to a Cosmic Mommy.
There is a ton of research, and there have been tons of breakthroughs
in this last decade. The research doesn't focus on making sacrifices to
Goddesses or prostrating to statues. It focuses on some basic
questions. Are plaques and tangles in brain tissue the cause of or a
result of Alzheimer's disease? Is there a sequence by which certain
pathological processes lead to disease? Why do nerve cells die? If
you're interested, I'd be happy to share some of the tons of helpful
research being done today in those areas.
Btw, Kathy, are you still praying to your statue blessed by the
'mindstream' of Jetsunma Mamalhammo? You remember: the one which nearly
cost the life of a groupie whom Jetsunma made work in toxic conditions
when pregnant and who could have died or had a deformed baby? The one
whom when the MamaLhamo found out, told her that it would be good for
her to have a deformed kid, so that she would give the kid more
attention???
Besides your paying to keep in business the slave labour of phony lamas
(I'm sure Jetsunma is enjoying her swimming pool which you helped to
subsidize), now you'd like to waste funds doing research into miracle
cures of Alzheimer's from doing rituals worshipping a Divine Mother
Goddess? Because you read that it said so in some tabloid? Duh!
> I have wrestled with depression for what I feel has been most
> of my life, but due to the grace of Divine Mother,
I've never heard such idiocy, even when I was in Southern California.
Even though you are deserving of endless insults, I am actually quite
grateful that there are blondes who are so out of it that they can
endure taking care of folks like my mom day after day without getting
burned out. I am also greatful for how you could easily be talked into
anything by boys with lots of hormones when I was in high school. You
provide wonderful services your entire life, I suppose.
But, um, Grace of Divine Mother my ass. Have you ever considered that
maybe you are a bit 'touched' and off in your own Private Idaho?
> sometimes I can "feel" this (Murshid called It The Spirit of
> Guidance and Christ called It The Holy Comforter or the Holy
That's nice, Kathy. Well, um, thank you for sharing. Have a day.
--Dharmakaya Trollpa
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
grail...@xnetsource.comm
"My mother is a client of an Adult Day Care center for Alzheimers
and she is very, very difficult without anti-psychotics. That has
nothing to do with medication given for treatment of depression."
My point was that I have noticed when people have become difficult
to handle at the Day Care, many times the "meds" that are given
have zombie-like effects on the participants (usually suffering
from Alzheimers). I do not know the technical name for these
drugs, the point was how drugs can produce zombies and oftentimes
they are used when people become difficult to handle.
Regarding the facility that your mother in: do they take people
who are unable to toilet themselves? In the facility where I
work, people must be able to bathroom themselves. I believe it
is state law that if they are incontinent, they must be
washed/showered. I would check this out if I were you. Alzheimers
is a horrific brain disease, and YES, DT, I DO BELIEVE what
I read in HINDUISM TODAY (NOT a tabloid) about the cure for
many mental illnesses by doing many rituals. The power of
prayer and faith is immense, I have seen miracles wrought
in my own life with family members (and I won't go into this
publically for a number of reasons, one being people like you
who make it sport to jab at others' spiritual journey). Many
things are wrought by faith, something which I understand you
cannot fathom, because I don't think you have the gift of
faith and cannot relate to it.
If Lstev (Linda) is out there, can you speak at all about
faith and the miracles it can bring up?
As far as the Alzheimers, DT, I too had someone in the immediate
family who suffered for years with this, to the point of not
recognizing her own children. It is a devastating disease,
and my own suspicion is that aluminum just may have a lot to
do with it, especially drinking beverages out of aluminum
cans and also the usage of aluminum potware. Aluminum foil
is probably another thing that is bad to use. The percentage
of people getting alzheimers is truly alarming and this disease
affects not only the people who get it, but their entire families
and can mean years and years of caregiving. Yes, people get
burned out and oftentimes sick in caregiving for another sick
person, because it is so energy-draining. Nurses get burned
out, also.
DT: "You know damned well that nobody has done "Divine Mother"
rituals and because of it has been magically cured of Alzheimers, or
even the common cold."
I have read that people were healed of alzheimers and other
mental illnesses,, and I dothink it is possible, although simply because
you haven't seen healings here in this
country does not mean they haven't happened. You are a cynical
person, DT, and faith can work wonders. I am sorry you can not
see or accept the possibility.
Rituals can indeed be very powerful to/with the mind, and the
mind is very powerful as any lama will tell you.
DT: "Btw, Kathy, are you still praying to your statue blessed by
the "mindstream" of Jetsumna Mamalhomo?"
The statue of PadmaSambhava that I obtained some years back is
still in my possession. I don't pray TO STATUES..the statue is
a symbol (and perhaps an empowerment) of the energy/mindstate
or whatever you wish to call it of PadmaSambhava, who I feel
is a great great teacher of mind/medicine/etc. If the person
who blessed this became corrupted, all I can say I am very
sorry to hear this. A false teacher does not make a false
disciple.
Kathy
--
Evelyn Ruut
<grail...@xnetsource.comm> wrote in message
news:82bduo$k...@hercules.ntsource.com...
> As far as the Alzheimers, DT, I too had someone in the immediate
> family who suffered for years with this, to the point of not
> recognizing her own children. It is a devastating disease,
> and my own suspicion is that aluminum just may have a lot to
> do with it, especially drinking beverages out of aluminum
> cans and also the usage of aluminum potware. Aluminum foil
> is probably another thing that is bad to use. The percentage
> of people getting alzheimers is truly alarming and this disease
> affects not only the people who get it, but their entire families
Dear Kathy,
In reading this, it came to mind that my parents, Dad 85, Mom 82 are both as
sharp as can be, neither one having lost a bit over the years, mentally,
other than some physical stuff in my Mom's case. (She underwent a triple
bypass at 81 - it was that or die). She has surprised everyone with how
bright and spry she is when we really expected to lose her two years ago.
They have eaten from aluminum pots and pans exclusively all of their lives.
They have been married 65 years and always have had and used aluminum pots.
Worse, they have cooked acidic foods in them at times. I know they have
found aluminum of some sort in the brains of alzheimer patients, but I am
convinced that there is another cause or this is a secondary effect.
I am personally convinced that alzheimers is related somehow to some sort of
virus or prions like the so called "mad cow" disease, or some other
undiscovered cause, possibly even some environmental thing.
If you will notice that for years people used lead based paints, gasoline,
makeup even, and it damages the mind and body. There are new things
discovered every day. I am sure that one day they will discover it is an
effect of some common chemical or a previously unknown critter.
And if the power of prayer did not work, then the well known "placebo
effect" would not work either, and it definitely often does.
Regards,
Evelyn
grail...@xnetsource.comm
"They have eaten from aluminum pots and pans exclusively all of
their lives." (and much other sharing, all very good, deleted
for brevity's sake).
Evelyn, this was truly amazing to me to read. Some things just
seem to remain mystery...why some people can smoke and smoke
and smoke and never incur lung cancer, while others DO get it.
Or the same for drinking alcohol (getting or not getting
cirrhosis of the liver). Maybe there is something in some
people's immune system that is healthier/more active and thus
they DO NOT get many of the diseases that others do by eating
certain products. Certainly all the contaminants and pollutants
in this day and age must be a factor in the rise of brain
disease. Who is to say? Truly, it is all so baffling, and
I also think/suspect perhaps that the person's life/thoughts/
purity may have something to do with it. For years my dad has
eaten the greasiest foods you can think of (yes, he loved to
eat the turkey tail on Thanksgiving Day, if you can imagine this)
and he does not suffer from anything about hardening of the
arteries, etc. I do think that grace may have a play in much
of this, and we get back to faith/belief in what you might
term good karma and I might term divine grace.
In the case I cited in my immediate family, I believe she
DID use some aluminum cookware. She became very ill with
alzheimers and ultimately passed on, while her husband
who died of cancer, was very very mentally alert. There are
no easy answers.
Kathy
--
Tashi
Evelyn Ruut wrote:
>
> <grail...@xnetsource.comm> wrote in message
> news:82bduo$k...@hercules.ntsource.com...
>
> > As far as the Alzheimers, DT, I too had someone in the immediate
> > family who suffered for years with this, to the point of not
> > recognizing her own children. It is a devastating disease,
> > and my own suspicion is that aluminum just may have a lot to
> > do with it, especially drinking beverages out of aluminum
> > cans and also the usage of aluminum potware. Aluminum foil
> > is probably another thing that is bad to use. The percentage
> > of people getting alzheimers is truly alarming and this disease
> > affects not only the people who get it, but their entire families
>
> Dear Kathy,
>
> In reading this, it came to mind that my parents, Dad 85, Mom 82 ... have eaten from aluminum pots and pans exclusively all of their lives.
> They have been married 65 years and always have had and used aluminum pots.
> Worse, they have cooked acidic foods in them at times. I know they have
> found aluminum of some sort in the brains of alzheimer patients, but I am
> convinced that there is another cause or this is a secondary effect.
>
I've read papers that point towards
aluminum-based deodorant sprays. As I remember,
the author discounted absorbing roll-on type
deodorant aluminum through the skin, though.
The acid-food\aluminum pan theory is pretty well
discredited, I think. Predisposition seems
gene-related, from the news I hear several weeks
ago - seems they have isolated a set of culprit
genes for Alzheimer's.
yours,
Tashi
David Bringen
and of itself enough to diagnose depression. It has to be what's called
a differential diagnosis. Also, it may take an expert (if there is such
a thing as a mental health expert -- boy, them's fightin' words) to
distinguish between flatness of affect and absence of affect, which is
associated with other pathologies.
=======================================================
MPr...@mindspring.com
da...@medallioncabinetry.com
(Who's been doing the clinical depression thing since
about age eight and has it down pretty damn good by now.)
DharmaTroll
arcc@NOSPAM_baynet.net (Punnadhammo) wrote:
> I also believe tht many of these wounds are deeper than one life-time.
Yes. They are genetic and inherited, rather than a matter of will.
I'm glad you're finally beginning to understand that, Bhante. Heh.
And in article <82620h$r...@hercules.ntsource.com>,
grail...@xnetsource.comm wrote:
that you may walk on solid ground again" pills instead, perhaps.
> I would like to say this from my own experience in working at
> the Adult Day Care: every now and then some of the participants
> (those who have dementia/alzheimers, etc) will become VERY difficult
My mother is a client of an Adult Day Care center for Alzheimers,
and she is very, very difficult without anti-psychotics. That has
nothing to do with medication given for treatment of depression.
> Punnadhammo Bhikkhu writes: (in reference to DT's symptons list):
You know damned well that nobody has done "Divine Mother" rituals and
because of it has been magically cured of Alzheimers, or even the
common cold. Act your age, Kathy. You're not a wide-eyed teenage blonde
bimbo anymore.
> I wish more studies could be done along these lines
Real studies are being done, that have to do with the causes of
Alzheimers, rather that quackery and prostrations to a Cosmic Mommy.
There is a ton of research, and there have been tons of breakthroughs
in this last decade. The research doesn't focus on making sacrifices to
Goddesses or prostrating to statues. It focuses on some basic
questions. Are plaques and tangles in brain tissue the cause of or a
result of Alzheimer's disease? Is there a sequence by which certain
pathological processes lead to disease? Why do nerve cells die? If
you're interested, I'd be happy to share some of the tons of helpful
research being done today in those areas.
Btw, Kathy, are you still praying to your statue blessed by the
'mindstream' of Jetsunma Mamalhammo? You remember: the one which nearly
cost the life of a groupie whom Jetsunma made work in toxic conditions
when pregnant and who could have died or had a deformed baby? The one
whom when the MamaLhamo found out, told her that it would be good for
her to have a deformed kid, so that she would give the kid more
attention???
Besides your paying to keep in business the slave labour of phony lamas
(I'm sure Jetsunma is enjoying her swimming pool which you helped to
subsidize), now you'd like to waste funds doing research into miracle
cures of Alzheimer's from doing rituals worshipping a Divine Mother
Goddess? Because you read that it said so in some tabloid? Duh!
> I have wrestled with depression for what I feel has been most
> of my life, but due to the grace of Divine Mother,
I've never heard such idiocy, even when I was in Southern California.
Even though you are deserving of endless insults, I am actually quite
grateful that there are blondes who are so out of it that they can
endure taking care of folks like my mom day after day without getting
burned out. I am also greatful for how you could easily be talked into
anything by boys with lots of hormones when I was in high school. You
provide wonderful services your entire life, I suppose.
But, um, Grace of Divine Mother my ass. Have you ever considered that
maybe you are a bit 'touched' and off in your own Private Idaho?
> sometimes I can "feel" this (Murshid called It The Spirit of
> Guidance and Christ called It The Holy Comforter or the Holy...
DharmaTroll
>> DT, I extend my sympathy to you and your mom even though
>> you called my mother a slut within a month of her death.
Give me a break: I said that your daughter must take after
her mother, and that you married a woman who reminds you of
your mother. What are you telling me, that you run a brothel?
In any case, after your wife died she could hardly be called
a slut, as she didn't have the capacity to say 'no' anymore.
Anyway, my mother who is a vegetable is a different mode than
a yo-mamma joke. And btw, I don't give a rat's ass whether you
extend your sympathy to a turnip. Extend it to my dad, who has
to change her diapers. Shit happens. Heh.
Well, so much for your guilt trip, bozo.
And sorry your wife kicked the bucket.
Really. That sucks, Terry.
And Kathy writes:
> My point was that I have noticed when people have become difficult to
> handle at the Day Care, many times the "meds" that are given have
> zombie-like effects on the participants
Yeah, and that has nothing to do with depression. They are to keep the
crazies who have paraniod delusions from biting and spitting and
screaming and cursing. My dad is thankful that such medicines exist.
You know, a year ago, my mom was not as bad and she kept asking for
friends from her childhood and for strawberries and was worried about
strange things, thinking someone was out to get her. One afternoon I
asked her if she would breathe with me and just watch the breath go in
and out, and I showed her some simple meditation stuff.
To my amazement, it worked wonderfully and she became calm and relaxed
and kept breathing and stopped complaining, and then had a relaxed,
blissful look on her face. I felt wonderful having had shared my
meditation practise with my ailing mom and had helped relieve her
suffering.
When my sister and parents came home from dinner, (I'd been visiting
for a week and staying with my mom so they could go out,) I proudly
prepared to tell my story. Before I was able to, my sister told me that
she'd given mom a big dose of the anti-psychotics, which she saw had
kicked in, so I wouldn't have to deal with her paranoid delusions.
It was her meds kicking in! Heh. That one deflated my pompous ego.
I had a good laugh and was humbled, (a rare occurrance for the DT)
realising what a bozo I was for taking credit for my mom's mellowness
The universe really pulled a good joke on me there. Yep, I was fooled.
> my own suspicion is that aluminum just may have a lot to do with it,
Actually, I think it is the color orange. They see too much orange and
ZAP. Or maybe it is from having middle names with too many syllables.
> YES, DT, I DO BELIEVE what I read in HINDUISM TODAY (NOT a tabloid)
Just as silly as any tabloid. All a crock of shit, just like your gods
and inner planes and vibrations and souls and UFOs. Well, maybe the
UFOs are at least possible, as we are talking about real critters here.
And geez, did you hear the news? Damned Martian bastards shot down
*another* one of our Mars probes. What did we ever do to them?
> I have read that people were healed of alzheimers and other mental
Sure, but not because of a Divine Momma or any other ineffable beastie.
> You are a cynical person, DT, and faith can work wonders.
I have faith in myself. And I am not cynical, just very intelligent.
And I am well aware of how powerful placebos and attitudes are in terms
of healing. Just because I don't believe it when I read that we have
been infiltrated by aliens and that Roswell was a cover-up, and that
magical beasties cure Alzheimers doesn't make me a cynic. Not by a long
shot. I do have beliefs, such as in that dark matter they haven't found
yet. It's just that if the universe is a closed space, which enough
mass would entail, then all sorts of cool stuff would make sense. So I
believe strongly in dark matter. But if we get evidence that there
ain't any, I'm willing to let go of my belief and admit I've been wrong.
> Many things are wrought by faith, something which I understand you
> cannot fathom, because I don't think you have the gift of faith
I can fathom being a moron. I'm sorry you're so gullible, but don't try
that holier-than-thou believer crap with me or I'll shove it right back
in your face. And yeah, Jetsumna's swimming pool was wrought with your
faith.
> The statue of PadmaSambhava that I obtained some years back is still
> in my possession. I don't pray TO STATUES..the statue is a symbol
> (and perhaps an empowerment) of the energy/mindstate or whatever
> you wish to call it of PadmaSambhava, who I feel is a great great
Oh baloney. You said that it was blessed with the 'mindstream' of the
MamaLhamo Jetsunma, who is a con artist who tricked a spacey old lama
named Penor Rinpoche, who may be a kind teacher but who has Tulkuized
Steven Seagal and god knows who else, into titling her as the latest
reincarnation of some famous dead person; and then she exploited the
hell out of people and was involved in every money-grubbing scandal
under the sun. And twinkies like you, Miss Tickle, are just the ones
who kept this Wicked Witch of the West in business. Duh.
> If the person who blessed this became corrupted,
No, she was a con artist taking people's money with phony seances, long
before she discovered that there was lots of money in Tibetan Buddhism.
Look, you're too embarrassed to even say her name. But not to buy her
magic statues that she nearly killed people getting them to make so she
could have a swimming pool, not to mention her $200,000 a year salary.
The point is that when twinkies such as yourself have tabloid blind
faith, believing crap in "Hindoodoo Today" and buying magic statues
from phony gurus, this leads to corruption, exploitation, and pain.
> A false teacher does not make a false disciple.
But blatantly false teachers tend to be surrounded by pathetic sheep.
And you got the wool pulled over your eyes real good, baby.
Baaaaahhhh!
--My Divine Grace Yabba Dhabba Dukkha Dharmakaya Trollpa
Karen Bowe
<dharm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > I have wrestled with depression for what I feel has been most
> > of my life, but due to the grace of Divine Mother,
>
> I've never heard such idiocy, even when I was in Southern California.
> Even though you are deserving of endless insults, I am actually quite
> grateful that there are blondes who are so out of it that they can
> endure taking care of folks like my mom day after day without getting
> burned out. I am also greatful for how you could easily be talked into
> anything by boys with lots of hormones when I was in high school. You
> provide wonderful services your entire life, I suppose.
>
> But, um, Grace of Divine Mother my ass. Have you ever considered that
> maybe you are a bit 'touched' and off in your own Private Idaho?
>
> > sometimes I can "feel" this (Murshid called It The Spirit of
> > Guidance and Christ called It The Holy Comforter or the Holy...
>
> That's nice, Kathy. Well, um, thank you for sharing. Have a day.
>
> --Dharmakaya Trollpa
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
What the hell is wrong with you? Your pain at your mother's disease
could not possibly excuse your lack of respect for her caregivers. I am
sorry I wasted my time attempting any kind of levelheaded discussion
about depression with your sorry ass.
When you see the "Cosmic Mommy," she is going to be in a form that
reflects all the bile and nastiness and hatred you have been spewing at
her devotees - and what else do you think people in caretaking
professions are, you loser? And she is gonna put you on one big, cosmic
time-out.
Anders Honore
the most blessed person in this newsgroup, though I suspect that he is not
fully aware of that fact. If you cannot bring yourself to respect those who
have no respect then that is something you need to work on. That's why I'm
glad that DT is here. For some reason (although a cannot fathom why), he
brings out the worst in people, but he is really helping you to see the
worst sides of yourself and grants you the opportunity to work on that. If
you don't see it then you deserve all the slaps you're getting.
--
Anders Honore,
praising the unpraised.
Karen Bowe <ka...@desalvo.org> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:karen-C5D4DC....@nntp.mindspring.com...
Tang Huyen
Anders Honore wrote: <<If you cannot bring yourself to respect those who have
no respect then that is something you need to work on. That's why I'm glad that
DT is here. For some reason (although a cannot fathom why), he brings out the
worst in people, but he is really helping you to see the worst sides of
yourself and grants you the opportunity to work on that. If you don't see it
then you deserve all the slaps you're getting.>>
Sorry, Anders, I'm the only one here at TRB to bring out the worst in people,
but I am really helping them to see the worst sides of themselves and granting
them the opportunity to work on that. I'm a selfless Bodhisattva who is using
skilful means to show humans the side of them that they need to work on.
Because of that, I fully know why I bring out the worst in people -- it is
called intention.
Tang Huyen
LStev3234
all the bile and nastiness and hatred you have been spewing at her devotees -
and what else do you think people in caretaking
professions are, you loser? And she is gonna put you on one big, cosmic
time-out<
Ah, it would appear that you need a "time-out" yourself. Uness you think that
Divine Mother is into revenge...in which case, you have most certainly found a
"mother" but it ain't divine....
I would not wish DT to be stuck with another DT-type in his/her worst moment of
suffering. To wish that kind of pain on somebody else is very mean spirited
and has nothing to do with compassion.
LStev3234
something you need to work on.<
Yep.
Tang Huyen
Karen Bowe wrote: <<When you see the "Cosmic Mommy," she is going to be in a
form that reflects all the bile and nastiness and hatred you have been
spewing at her devotees - and what else do you think people in caretaking
professions are, you loser? And she is gonna put you on one big, cosmic
time-out.>>
Isn't this cosmic time-out what Theravad the Hinduist seeks as his ultimate,
the Nirguna Brahman?
Tang Huyen
LStev3234
skilful means to show humans the side of them that they need to work on.<
I have some ocean front property in Arizona, would you like to buy some?
LStev---------->big evil grin
Anders Honore
I'm interpreting your reply this way: That you disagree with me, because you
believe that DT is lacking intention. If that's the case, then who cares.
Make the best of the current situation. How can you make the best in a given
situation? Help yourself, and then you will be able to help DT. Until then,
stop commenting on DT unless you have something useful to say to him (useful
for him, that is). It will bring you no good. If you are letting something
as trivial as motivation stop you from making the best of a situation, then
that is something you need to sit on. Myself? I can only laugh, and feel
true compassion for DT. I sincerely wish he knew what a wonderful person he
is.
--
Anders Honore,
still learning.
Tang Huyen <thu...@bu.edu> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:384AD073...@bu.edu...
>
> Sorry, Anders, I'm the only one here at TRB to bring out the worst in
people,
> but I am really helping them to see the worst sides of themselves and
granting
> them the opportunity to work on that. I'm a selfless Bodhisattva who is
using
> skilful means to show humans the side of them that they need to work on.
Tang Huyen
LStev3234 wrote:
Tang: <<I'm a selfless Bodhisattva who is using skilful means to show humans
the side of them that they need to work on.>>
Linda: <<I have some ocean front property in Arizona, would you like to buy
some?
LStev---------->big evil grin>>
Ah, sure, I'll use my rich bank of merit to buy it and add it to my Pure
Land. In it, the ponds resound with sounds of Dharma non-stop, the birds
preach the Dharma non-stop, etc. So it may be a bit boring with all that
non-stop sound-surround spiritual Muzak, and an ocean front property in
Arizona will get the denizens to twist their logic a bit -- keeps them
interested for a moment.
Nagarjuna is abit too hard for them, you see.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
Anders Honore wrote: <<Help yourself, and then you will be able to help DT.
Until then, stop commenting on DT unless you have something useful to say to him
(useful for him, that is). It will bring you no good.>>
I don't expect any, for him and for me, dear.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
Anders Honore wrote: <<Just recalled this Zen-story. Maybe that will help you
understand.
'A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a
mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to
find there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him.
"You have come a long way to visit me," he told the thief, "and you should not
return empty handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was
bewildered, but he took the clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching
the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful
moon."'
--
Anders Honore,
loving this story.>>
The Zen master only gave his clothes to the thief but didn't volunteer to work
for the rest of his life as a slave for him for free. Cheap him.
Tang Huyen
Anders Honore
Anders Honore
>
>
> Anders Honore wrote: <<Just recalled this Zen-story. Maybe that will help
work
> for the rest of his life as a slave for him for free. Cheap him.
>
> Tang Huyen
>
>
volunteer.
--
Anders Honore,
tired and going to bed.
Tang Huyen
Anders Honore wrote: <<Just recalled this Zen-story. Maybe that will help you
understand.
'A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a
mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to
find there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him.
"You have come a long way to visit me," he told the thief, "and you should not
return empty handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was
bewildered, but he took the clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching
the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful
moon."'
--
Anders Honore,
loving this story.>>
Tang: <<The Zen master only gave his clothes to the thief but didn't volunteer
to work for the rest of his life as a slave for him for free. Cheap him.>>
Anders: <<Yeah, he was kinda cheap. I, for one, wouldn't hesitate a second to
volunteer.
--
Anders Honore,
tired and going to bed.>>
You've got your priorities right, dear. Sleep first, volunteer later.
Tang Huyen
LStev3234
In it, the ponds resound with sounds of Dharma non-stop, the birds preach the
Dharma non-stop, etc. So it may be a bit boring with all that non-stop
Gad! You have found the promised land!!! But, alas, it will become boring in
a short while, as I am but a human being and must have stimulae or I will die
of non-attainment...
Karen Bowe
<anders...@get2net.dk> wrote:
> You really need to pay more respect to an enlightened person like DT.
> He's
> the most blessed person in this newsgroup, though I suspect that he is
> not
> fully aware of that fact. If you cannot bring yourself to respect those
> who
> have no respect then that is something you need to work on. That's why
> I'm
> glad that DT is here. For some reason (although a cannot fathom why), he
> brings out the worst in people, but he is really helping you to see the
> worst sides of yourself and grants you the opportunity to work on that.
> If
> you don't see it then you deserve all the slaps you're getting.
>
> --
> Anders Honore,
> praising the unpraised.
>
> Karen Bowe <ka...@desalvo.org> skrev i en
> nyhedsmeddelelse:karen-C5D4DC....@nntp.mindspring.com...
> > What the hell is wrong with you? Your pain at your mother's disease
> > could not possibly excuse your lack of respect for her caregivers. I
> > am
> > sorry I wasted my time attempting any kind of levelheaded discussion
> > about depression with your sorry ass.
> > When you see the "Cosmic Mommy," she is going to be in a form that
> > reflects all the bile and nastiness and hatred you have been spewing at
> > her devotees - and what else do you think people in caretaking
> > professions are, you loser? And she is gonna put you on one big,
> > cosmic
> > time-out.
>
>
Oh, I have TONS of respect for DT. I have enough respect for him to
treat him in the way he is asking for. I also have enough respect for
you to tell you to watch it whenever you feel the need to point out to
someone else what you think they should be working on. I also have
enough respect for you to really think about your post and wonder about
these two things:
1. What slaps was I getting? I didn't feel any slaps. If you'd been
reading the thread, you would have noticed that DT's insults were
directed at somebody else. I was just sticking my nose in, mostly for
entertainment value.
2. If what DT brings out in people is their worst, then this ng should
rule the world. . . in my universe, text sparring is a sport. "The
worst in people," last time I checked, involved rape, massacre, things
like that.
Sleep tight.
grail...@xnetsource.comm
"Your pain at your mother's disease could not possibly excuse your
lack of respect for her caregivers."
Then Linda (lstev) wrote to Karen:
"Ah, it would appear that you need a "time out" yourself. Unless
you think that Divine Mother is into revenge..."
First, I would like to address Karen: One thing you have to be
aware of is that DT gets his kicks by insulting others, he
thinks it is his spiritual practice. I don't think he was
disrespecting his mother's caregivers, just me, who happens
to be a caregiver to alzheimer people (not his mother's, how-
ever). From the stuff I've seen DT write, he has many issues to deal
withand a lot of anger comes out in cynical ways...
To Linda, I would like to speak about Divine Mother: I think
Divine Mother's love heals. Maybe it is we ourselves (our
subconscious or even unconscious minds?) that is a big hindrance
and maybe the mind or Life itself simply teaches us -- and
sometimes these teachings can seem very painful or unpleasant.
Yes, suffering DOES purify. Sometimes you see a very very
arrogant/mean person...and then that person goes through
great suffering and is softened..that hard/harsh/mean/nasty
ego is beaten down to smithereens. It isn't about "revenge",
but I do think that a person or personality is allowed only
so long to go on being obnoxious and hurtful to people, and
then Life itself (which is also Divine Mother) corrects him/her
...and may bring that persondown on his/her knees to a point of
humility and true compassion for others. So when Karen speaks about the
"Cosmic Mommie" giving DT timeout, it just may happen, just in a way that
will bring DT to come to deeper self-introspection and to
a reality that shows him how totally offbase and obnoxious he is at times
with people.
Kathy
--
Tang Huyen
Karen Bowe wrote: <<2. If what DT brings out in people is their worst, then
this ng should rule the world. . . in my universe, text sparring is a sport.>>
You're my kind of friend, Karen. My text: "Tell me who haunts you, I'll tell
you who you are."
Tang Huyen
robinandlynne
_Really_, agreeing on every point, Linda.
grail...@xnetsource.comm
"I have no idea who DT is and neither do you nor most of the folks on
these boards."
All we can go by is what people write and post. Sometimes, if
we are feeling enough, we can feel their sarcasm or mean spiritedness.
..or eventheir inner turmoil. I disasgree with you about the self-respon
sbility bit (which I have seen a number of people use to rationalize all
types of ill behavior/hurtful words, etc. as a means of justification).
ALL of us are responsible when we hurt others, and DT, or
you, for that matter, are no exception to the rule.
Kathy
--
Karen Bowe
wrote:
What haunts me. . . civil unrest. Murder by manicurists. Earthquakes
and fires. Being stuck in a job I hate. There's always more. . .
grail...@xnetsource.comm
"It would seem to be a paradox, but in truth, unresolved emotions
are the root cause of a great deal of suffering because they are not
examined carefully."
Not only not examined carefully, but sometimes totally denied.
Kathy
--
LStev3234
transform them magicaly into holiness if they suffer long and hard enough and
everybody else recognizes/gives them bennies for their long hard suffering.
Martyrs are boring. They endlessly remind everyone else how much they are
suffering. Eventually the followers leave to find someone who isn't so
boringly hooked on publicizing their own suffering.
Some folks sit back and greedily wait for life to show up and bring someone
else to their knees, because they have been offended or wronged and they want
"god" or "life" or "cosmic mommie" to get even for them. Bullshit. That is a
kindergarden point of view. Life isn't fair and often the bad folks don't get
punished no matter how much the rest of us think they should be. As long as we
are waiting for someone else to get punished, we have a problem just as much as
the person who is doing "wrong."
None of us know what DT is going through, or has gone through, and it is quite
possible that DT is on the way back, recovering from some devastating event
which none of us know about.
to the fore in posting to this (or any other) NG. Whether or not DT is
obnoxious (or sarcastic or whatever) has little or nothing to do with your
reaction, which is nothing but projection, and is entirely your responsability.
DT is just being DT. DT does not have to meet my, nor your, nor anyone else's
standards. DT has the right to say and do exactly as DT pleases, as do the
rest of us. Each of us is responsible for catching our own act on these
boards, in real life, and anywhere in between.
If you don't like what DT says, then don't read DT's postings. Make a decision
as to what you want to participate in, and what you don't. But don't keep
reading DT's posts and blame DT when you get upset or offended by what DT says.
Unless you enjoy arguing, in which case, you will always find someone to
participate.
LStev3234
we are feeling enough, we can feel their sarcasm or mean spiritedness. ..or
(which I have seen a number of people use to rationalize all types of ill
behavior/hurtful words, etc. as a means of justification).
>
>ALL of us are responsible when we hurt others, and DT, or you, for that
matter, are no exception to the rule.
>
Further, you have no idea what my intent is, nor have you asked. Only you can
decide whether or not you want to hang on to a perception you have manufactured
in your own mind that is painful for you.
No one has justified anything, I have merely stated that you are responsible
for your own perception and the unhappy emotions which result form your
perceptions. If you want to use emotions as a vehicle to enlightenment, then
you have to be responsible for your emotional responses to others, and examine
the roots of your emotions fully and completely. Emotions are useful, but they
can also be obstacles if we do not take responsbility for our own emotions. It
LStev3234
fires. Being stuck in a job I hate. There's always more. . .
Solutions:
1. Learn to be your own manicurist.
2. Move someplace where there are no earthquakes.
3. Never be more than 5 feet away from a fully charged fire extinguisher.
4. Get another job.
In the mean time, park your ass on your zaffu and do insight meditation.
If you don't get murdered, burn down, shaken off the cushion, fired, or win the
lotto, maybe you'll get liberated and none of the above will matter anyhow.
LStev3234
Whether someone else is in denial (or not) has no bearing on whether or not you
yourself chose to be responsible for your own emotions and reactions.
Anders Honore
> In article <R3A24.389$5Y....@news.get2net.dk>, "Anders Honore"
> <anders...@get2net.dk> wrote:
>
> > You really need to pay more respect to an enlightened person like DT.
> > He's
> > the most blessed person in this newsgroup, though I suspect that he is
> > not
> > fully aware of that fact. If you cannot bring yourself to respect those
> > who
> > have no respect then that is something you need to work on. That's why
> > I'm
> > glad that DT is here. For some reason (although a cannot fathom why), he
> > brings out the worst in people, but he is really helping you to see the
> > worst sides of yourself and grants you the opportunity to work on that.
> > If
> > you don't see it then you deserve all the slaps you're getting.
> >
> > --
> > Anders Honore,
> > praising the unpraised.
> >
>
> treat him in the way he is asking for. I also have enough respect for
> you to tell you to watch it whenever you feel the need to point out to
> someone else what you think they should be working on. I also have
> enough respect for you to really think about your post and wonder about
> these two things:
You know just as well as I do that he's not asking for that response. Look
beyonds the words. have you ever meditated about DT? Might be more
interesting than you think. You want me to watch it whenever I feel the need
to point out things about others? Haha, then what are you doing here?
> 1. What slaps was I getting? I didn't feel any slaps. If you'd been
> reading the thread, you would have noticed that DT's insults were
> directed at somebody else. I was just sticking my nose in, mostly for
> entertainment value.
You obviously wre getting some slaps. Otherwise, you wouldn't take offense.
> 2. If what DT brings out in people is their worst, then this ng should
> rule the world. . . in my universe, text sparring is a sport. "The
> worst in people," last time I checked, involved rape, massacre, things
> like that.
> Sleep tight.
I certainly hope that these *qualities* isn't inside you. What's the worst
part about you?
--
Anders Honore,
knowing and not-knowing.
Tang Huyen
Ali Hassan wrote:
Anders Honore wrote: <<Just recalled this Zen-story. Maybe that will help you
understand.
'A Zen Master lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a
mountain. One evening, while he was away, a thief sneaked into the hut only to find
there was nothing in it to steal. The Zen Master returned and found him. "You have
come a long way to visit me," he told the thief, "and you should not return empty
handed. Please take my clothes as a gift." The thief was bewildered, but he took the
clothes and ran away. The Master sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he
mused, " I wish I could give him this beautiful moon."'
Tang: <<The Zen master only gave his clothes to the thief but didn't volunteer to
workfor the rest of his life as a slave for him for free. Cheap him.>>
Ali: <<No, but the thief came back with a change of heart and volunteered to work the
rest of his life as a slave for the Zen master, and would not leave. Thus he
obligated the master to work as his slave until he was free.
Do you understand?
If you have no heart, you will never comprehend the meat and blood of buddhism,
Tang. It will only be dry dust.
Thus, knowing the words, the exact translations, will not avail nor help you.>>
When the thief came back with the change of heart, he was an arhat, with no self
left, and the Zen master acknowledged him as *his* master and made him abbot.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
LStev3234 wrote: <<If you want to use emotions as a vehicle to enlightenment, then
you have to be responsible for your emotional responses to others, and examine the
roots of your emotions fully and completely. Emotions are useful, but they can
also be obstacles if we do not take responsbility for our own emotions. It would
seem to be a paradox, but in truth, unresolved emotions are the root cause of a
great deal of suffering because they are not examined carefully.>>
Emotions are less readily understood than, say, concepts and logic (both of which
can very well be quite illogical), but when one examines them and penetrate to
their roots (which does not imply that one wants to change them one way or the
other, but only that one thoroughly examines them impartially, without affection or
aversion), they all behave the same way with regard to the examining awareness:
they become transparent, almost sun-lit.
Not that they don't occur any more, for they still occur, but they are now
transparent as they occur, and the fog that surrounded them -- that was them -- is
no longer around.
Sometimes, when I read accounts in TB of emptiness as a light wherein all
dissolves, I wonder whether it is merely a manner of speech for the phenomenon that
what happens in the mind becomes clear and transparent (i. e., no longer opaque)
when one applies unblinking awareness to it accompanied by equanimity, that is,
awareness without affection and aversion. When this awareness without affection and
aversion is applied, whatever it is applied to -- depression, anger, unhappiness,
lust, even happiness, delight, etc. -- becomes redeemed, because understood,
resolved and reconciled with.
When one takes responsibility for what one does and what happens to one, inside or
out, blanket-wise, it gets reintegrated into one, even if only to the illusory
self, but one then has the chance to work with it, accept it, come to peace with
it, resolve it, reconcile with it, and once this happens, one can then let go of
it, let it take care of itself, but now it happens and takes care of itself right
in the awareness that one trains on it, not in a hostile way, but a benign way. One
just looks, it happens, but no longer fools one into anything. Then one can see
that the illusory self is just that, illusory, and that there is no true self. What
happens just happens.
Tang Huyen
LStev3234
inside or out, blanket-wise, it gets reintegrated into one, even if only to the
illusory self, but one then has the chance to work with it, accept it, come to
peace
with it, resolve it, reconcile with it, and once this happens, one can then let
go of it, let it take care of itself, but now it happens and takes care of
itself
right in the awareness that one trains on it, not in a hostile way, but a
benign way. One just looks, it happens, but no longer fools one into anything.
Then one can see that the illusory self is just that, illusory, and that there
is no true self. What
happens just happens.<
Yes, it's amazing how it happens, but most folks fight looking, fight taking
responsability, fight accepting. It is so much easier to blame our responses
and difficulties on everyone and everything else.
Steven Lightfoot
>
>
>LStev3234 wrote: <<If you want to use emotions as a vehicle to enlightenment, then
>you have to be responsible for your emotional responses to others, and examine the
>roots of your emotions fully and completely. Emotions are useful, but they can
>also be obstacles if we do not take responsbility for our own emotions. It would
>seem to be a paradox, but in truth, unresolved emotions are the root cause of a
>great deal of suffering because they are not examined carefully.>>
>
>Emotions are less readily understood than, say, concepts and logic (both of which
>can very well be quite illogical), but when one examines them and penetrate to
>their roots (which does not imply that one wants to change them one way or the
>other, but only that one thoroughly examines them impartially, without affection or
>aversion), they all behave the same way with regard to the examining awareness:
>they become transparent, almost sun-lit.
>
>Not that they don't occur any more, for they still occur, but they are now
>transparent as they occur, and the fog that surrounded them -- that was them -- is
>no longer around.
>
>Sometimes, when I read accounts in TB of emptiness as a light wherein all
>dissolves, I wonder whether it is merely a manner of speech for the phenomenon that
>what happens in the mind becomes clear and transparent (i. e., no longer opaque)
>when one applies unblinking awareness to it accompanied by equanimity, that is,
>awareness without affection and aversion. When this awareness without affection and
>aversion is applied, whatever it is applied to -- depression, anger, unhappiness,
>lust, even happiness, delight, etc. -- becomes redeemed, because understood,
>resolved and reconciled with.
Luminosity is real. Just as real as that which it replaced by those
who replace a dualistic reality for a non-thought-provoked
non-separation of the whole into parts to create apparant conflict in
mind. Duality is only needed to tend to the bodies needs, not the
minds. Enjoy both simultaneously. You can even have temporary
suffering and permanent happiness together at the same time once you
become both duality and non-duality.
Steven Lightfoot
>Linda (lstev) writes:
>
>"I have no idea who DT is and neither do you nor most of the folks on
>these boards."
>
>All we can go by is what people write and post. Sometimes, if
>we are feeling enough, we can feel their sarcasm or mean spiritedness.
>..or eventheir inner turmoil. I disasgree with you about the self-respon
>sbility bit (which I have seen a number of people use to rationalize all
>types of ill behavior/hurtful words, etc. as a means of justification).
>
>ALL of us are responsible when we hurt others, and DT, or
>you, for that matter, are no exception to the rule.
>
>Kathy
But who gets to be the judge is a person is the way we believe they
are in reality when there are conflicting reports. Do we merely say
that everyone who sees an ounce of decency in DT is on his side and
start a war with them as well? How personal are our *feelings* and
how valid a *God* are they to judge others' lives, except the
judgement that tells us to stay away from them or to engage them. No
feeling should demand that we defend ourselves forever against their
*abuse* if that's how we perceive it. One must know when to walk
away and when to run and when to fold the deck entirely, for their own
safety only, not because their judgement is God's judgement. If one
thinks that their judgement is how God (so called by many) sees the
*other*, then if that is based upon emotions only, one is looking for
trouble wth all but those one considers saintly. Love partakes in
less and less emotional judgement and forgiveness, not more and more,
which leads down the wrong path indeed.
LStev3234
same time once you become both duality and non-duality<
True, so true.
LStev3234
*other*, then if that is based upon emotions only, one is looking for trouble
wth all but those one considers saintly.<
Yes, and if someone "looks" like a saint, they probably are not. The criteria
for "sainthood" is often nothing more than a misunderstood projection of
unresolved issues, and the inability/refusal to see the entirety of the
"saint." Humans are often fooled by the mirrors of their own minds. Better to
look for Buddha on the inside, rather than search endlessly on the outside.
Tang Huyen
Ali Hassan wrote: <<Compassion wherever you look.>>
Now stop murmuring about me, Ali.
Tang Huyen
grail...@xnetosurce.comm
"Do we merely say that everyone who sees an ounce of decency in
DT is on his side and start a war with them as well?"
DT has the potential of active buddha nature as we all do. The
problem is trying to JUSTIFY abusive, demeaning behavior by
couching it with terms such as 'he has buddha nature' or talking
in a demeaning way to others is his spiritual practice, etc.
Lord Buddha worked hard and long with intense tapasya (meditation),
which is not to be confused with putting people down, being
antagonistic, being full of ego inflation antics towards others.
Such behavior has little to do with 'buddha nature' and MUCH
to do with hostility and showing that many issues (mind
defilements) have not yet been resolved/transmuted/healed/
transcended....or however you wish to state it.
My problem is with people who couch abuse and say it is
their religious practice. People who engage in this are
in self-delusion, and sometimes these types of people DO
harm others. I believe one lama mentioned how those who
have not worked hard and long enough on themselves are
not appropriate teachers and have no business teaching. Many
people, sadly, *think* they are "teachers" and *think* they
do others a service by being abusive, but to me, this is
just another form of confusion and ignorance, in addition
to harming the person engaging in such behavior and those
they have targeted.
Having a lack of conscience in such matters is only further indication
that ego-inflation/arrogance is involved. The
lamas speak of the importance of humility coupled with wisdom.
I haven't seen much of this in most of DT's posts to me.
Kathy
--
Karen Bowe
<anders...@get2net.dk> wrote:
> > 1. What slaps was I getting? I didn't feel any slaps. If you'd been
> > reading the thread, you would have noticed that DT's insults were
> > directed at somebody else. I was just sticking my nose in, mostly for
> > entertainment value.
>
> You obviously wre getting some slaps. Otherwise, you wouldn't take
> offense.
>
I am a very polite girl. I take what is offered, especially when
someone has put so much work into it.
> > 2. If what DT brings out in people is their worst, then this ng should
> > rule the world. . . in my universe, text sparring is a sport. "The
> > worst in people," last time I checked, involved rape, massacre, things
> > like that.
> > Sleep tight.
>
> I certainly hope that these *qualities* isn't inside you. What's the
> worst
> part about you?
>
> --
> Anders Honore,
> knowing and not-knowing.
>
>
Oooh, baby, an opportunity to talk about myself. These are the worst
parts of me: I have a terrible time getting out of bed in the morning.
I am a big slob. I have a really hard time saying no and overextend
myself and end up having to take long breaks to recoup and recharge,
during which needed activities like rent-paying do not take place. I
have hairs growing out of a mole on my face. I make fun of my
boyfriend's tummy. I am an unregenerate, Mass-going Catholic who feels
more guilty about neglecting zazen than she does about not going to
confession. I have extremely violent fantasies. I have unsafe sex.
What are the worst parts about you?
Oh - thanks for the suggestion that I meditate on DT. I have been
meditating very broadly and generally on the issue and narrowing it down
may be useful. My usual buddhas of compassion are busdrivers and the
parents of the children I work with - this will be a nice change.
LStev3234
an ounce of decency in DT is on his side and start a war with them as well?"<
Sorry, Kathy, I didn't write the above.
However I will address what you have said in your reply to whomever did write
the above.
>My problem...<
At last, you are admiting it is your problem...
> is with people who couch abuse and say it is their religious practice.<
You are confused about "abuse." There is no coersion going on in this NG, as
everyone has free will to come and go as they wish. If anyone were being
coerced at their computer terminal, it isn't the fault of anyone on these
boards. It cannot be "abuse " if there is no overt or covert coersion. If
you are going to throw out the shrink lingo, at least know what it means.
> People who engage in this are
in self-delusion, and sometimes these types of people DO harm others.<
Kindly give your definition of harm.
> I believe one lama mentioned how those who have not worked hard and long
enough on themselves are not appropriate teachers and have no business
teaching. Many people, sadly, *think* they are "teachers" and *think* they do
others a service by being abusive, but to me, this is just another form of
confusion and ignorance, in addition to harming the person engaging in such
behavior and those they have targeted.<
Obviously you aren't aware of the Buddhist idea about opportunistic teachers.
Perhaps rather than listen to folks who upset you, you might want to go find a
lama who tells you what you want to hear.
>Having a lack of conscience in such matters is only further indication that
ego-inflation/arrogance is involved. The
lamas speak of the importance of humility coupled with wisdom. I haven't seen
much of this in most of DT's posts to me.<
Then go find a lama that makes you feel good and stop wasting time trying to
change DT. Your conscience is your business. DT's conscience is his business.
Tang Huyen
LStev3234 wrote: <<You are confused about "abuse." There is no coersion going on in
this NG, as everyone has free will to come and go as they wish. If anyone were
being coerced at their computer terminal, it isn't the fault of anyone on these
boards. It cannot be "abuse " if there is no overt or covert coersion. If you
are going to throw out the shrink lingo, at least know what it means.>>
Agreed totally, Linda.
People who read NG posts -- and even more so people who post -- are all adults
responsible for themselves. If they are immature or unable to take care of
themselves, they should not wander near Usenet. Nobody forces anybody to open any
post, much less read it. If one knows ahead of time that some posters have a way of
getting on one's nerves, one should avoid their posts, by killfile if necessary,
and if one opens their posts and reads them anyway, one is fully responsible for
that act. The only person sitting in front of one's screen is one, the only one
typing and clicking is one, and nobody takes one's hands and forces one to open any
post and read it.
If one persists on dumping responsibility on the posters anyway, one ought to go
back to kindergarten.
Tang Huyen
Theodore M. Seeber
> Oooh, baby, an opportunity to talk about myself. These are the worst
> parts of me: I have a terrible time getting out of bed in the morning.
> I am a big slob. I have a really hard time saying no and overextend
> myself and end up having to take long breaks to recoup and recharge,
> during which needed activities like rent-paying do not take place. I
> have hairs growing out of a mole on my face. I make fun of my
> boyfriend's tummy. I am an unregenerate, Mass-going Catholic who feels
> more guilty about neglecting zazen than she does about not going to
> confession. I have extremely violent fantasies. I have unsafe sex.
Hey, I resemble that remark....But if I'm married and in a monogamous
relationship is it really unsafe sex?
Still, something that needs offering here:
The more Zen you do, the less Zen you are
mailto:see...@teleport.com
mailto:seebe...@bigfoot.com-emergency Only 150 char limit
On emergency address, remove everything past .com...This will send
to my cell phone, my work, and my home.
http://www.teleport.com/~seebert
God is MetaNatural, not Supernatural
Evelyn Ruut
Tang Huyen <thu...@bu.edu> wrote in message news:384C4990...@bu.edu...
This is absolutely true. I am in full agreement with Linda and Tang on
this one. This place and any other newsgroup is nearly a free for all.
The only difference is that we here are buddhists, and as such probably
ought to have slightly different ways of dealing with aggressive speech.
There is more. First of all Kathy, Linda, Margaret, Jackie and Evelyn are
female names and obviously so. If one goes by a genderless newsgroup
"handle" one may expect to be confused with "one of the guys".
Knowing Mubul for a long time, I must say this is the first time I ever
noticed him using profanity with a lady, but he does play rough with other
men. I think he did not know that "Buddha Parker" was a female and took
the same kind of liberties that men tend to take with one another, meaning
using profanity. In the past Mubul has been particularly unpleasant with
other people who used profanity with women, and so I know for sure that is
NOT his style.
I haven't commented much on the situation until now, hoping it would blow
over, but it doesn't seem to be doing that.
Buddha Parker, my advice is to chill out on it. Yes, you were spoken to
harshly, but I think it was an honest mistake. As Jigme says, Professor
Hayes, alias Mubul, is usually a gentleman and does not hassle women or use
profanity with them. I think he really thought he was razzing a guy. If
for one moment I thought you were a female at the time he said it, I would
have hassled him about it adamantly myself. It was only later that it came
out that you were a lady and he exited himself from this newsgroup and I
would not be surprised if he feels badly about it.
I am glad you are here, you have good things to say, and let's get on with
life. Nice to meet you.
Regards,
Evelyn
robinandlynne
Brigitte Yves
>I am glad you are here, you have good things to say, and let's get on with
>life. Nice to meet you.
>
>Regards,
>Evelyn
It takes two to Tango, one to ramble. I hope TRB is different than
TPT.
_Brigitte
Brigitte Yves
>What is TPT?
Talk.Politics.Tibet
Elizabeth J. Jelich-Griffin
like to provide "my" answer <blush:-) (can i pway wif you)
Tang Huyen wrote:
>
> My text: "Tell me who haunts you, I'll tell
> you who you are."
>
> Tang Huyen
The dead and dying. Their images in my dreams, the sensations and
knowings of their presence everywhere.
Beth
--
She's surfing the edges,
Look out boys,
That bitch from hell is back
-me
LStev3234
noticed him using profanity with a lady, but he does play rough with other men.
I think he did not know that "Buddha Parker" was a female and took the same
In the past Mubul has been particularly unpleasant with other people who used
profanity with women, and so I know for sure that is NOT his style.<
Ever wonder how men who don't swear or are not interested in certain
oft-accepted "male" traits deal with people like Mobul, who often assume that
all men share his pov and behaviors? Or folks like DT who think everybody
should make room for DTs sarcasm and name-calling because it is DT's right to
do so? (which is true, it is DT's right).
For instance, my hubby does not swear very often. Neither is he angry, as he
likes his work, likes himself, likes life in general. He is one of those even
tempered types of folks. I have only seen hm swear or lose his tempter 5 times
in almost 20 years, and he is quick to say that he was stupid for losing his
temper, and also stupid for doing whatever it was HE did that made him lose his
temper and behave in a way that is unproductive.
My husband does not hang around men who are verbally out of control or think
they are "cool" for using certain types of language. He occasionally works with
them on various consturction jobs: if a lady is present he will say something
if somebody gets into impolite language, however he usually just doesn't hang
around with people who he determines are rude, crude, or offensive. There are
some folks who have been after him for years to work for them, but he simply
doesn't return their phone calls or says he is too busy to take on any more
jobs. He doesn't chose to work for nasty, sarcastic, swearing, posturing,
overly matcho males. Neither does he work for females who don't know how to
behave, as his idealism works on both sides of the street. He isn't interested
in changing anybody else, he simply knows he has choices and he is willing to
make his own choices.
When I was very angry at life, my thoughts and speech were peppered with swear
words and sarcasm. It has taken a lot of years to realize and deal with my
anger, but I have noticed that my thoughts are much more clear, not laden with
negativity, and I don't swear very often simply because the words no longer are
lingering on the upper edge of my awareness. I do not have an aversion to
swearing or sarcasm, but I do have the ability to decide when I want to be
around it, or not.
Perhaps Mubul learned something from mistakenly making his macho comments to a
lady. As long as he feels he has to/should treat men differently from women,
there is definitely a problem. As long as a woman demands to be treated
specially, she also has a problem.
margaret
>There is more. First of all Kathy, Linda, Margaret, Jackie and Evelyn are
>female names and obviously so. If one goes by a genderless newsgroup
>"handle" one may expect to be confused with "one of the guys".
>
>noticed him using profanity with a lady, but he does play rough with other
>men. I think he did not know that "Buddha Parker" was a female and took
>using profanity. In the past Mubul has been particularly unpleasant with
>other people who used profanity with women, and so I know for sure that is
>NOT his style.
Ummmm so ... it's ok to be rude to a man but not to a woman? Why is ok to
be rude to a man? Why is strong language serious when directed at a woman,
yet when it is directed at a man, suddenly it's a joke? Certain behaviours
are either harmful or they aren't, to my mind. Unless we accept this, we
can fall into a pattern of thinking that one person's abusive behaviour is
"ok" because x, y, z (it was directed at a man, she/he "didn't mean it",
she/he is so fun/witty/learned etc etc). Sounds like at best a faulty
pattern, at worst a dangerous one to me.
Margaret
LStev3234
>be rude to a man? Why is strong language serious when directed at a woman,
yet when it is directed at a man, suddenly it's a joke? Certain behaviours
are either harmful or they aren't, to my mind. Unless we accept this, we can
fall into a pattern of thinking that one person's abusive behaviour is "ok"
because x, y, z (it was directed at a man, she/he "didn't mean it", she/he is
so fun/witty/learned etc etc). Sounds like at best a faulty pattern, at worst
a dangerous one to me.<
>
>Margaret
Margaret, you're asking the kind of serious questions which will spoil all
their fun. They won't be able to use sarcasm and machismo and feminime wiles
and some kind of twisted, "crazy zen" as an excuse anymore. Shame on you.
LStev----------->the quintessential questioner.
Evelyn Ruut
margaret <marg...@mdebethlen.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:82jili$f0c$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> >There is more. First of all Kathy, Linda, Margaret, Jackie and Evelyn
are
> >female names and obviously so. If one goes by a genderless newsgroup
> >"handle" one may expect to be confused with "one of the guys".
> >
> >Knowing Mubul for a long time, I must say this is the first time I ever
> >noticed him using profanity with a lady, but he does play rough with
other
> >men. I think he did not know that "Buddha Parker" was a female and took
> >the same kind of liberties that men tend to take with one another,
meaning
> >using profanity. In the past Mubul has been particularly unpleasant
with
> >other people who used profanity with women, and so I know for sure that
is
> >NOT his style.
>
>
> be rude to a man? Why is strong language serious when directed at a
woman,
> yet when it is directed at a man, suddenly it's a joke? Certain
behaviours
> are either harmful or they aren't, to my mind. Unless we accept this, we
> can fall into a pattern of thinking that one person's abusive behaviour is
> "ok" because x, y, z (it was directed at a man, she/he "didn't mean it",
> she/he is so fun/witty/learned etc etc). Sounds like at best a faulty
> pattern, at worst a dangerous one to me.
>
> Margaret
Well, no Margaret, but I must tell you the boys play by their own rules,
right or wrong. Also there is a zen element to it too, and also that it
seems to be a universal kind of guy thing, talking like that. Furthermore
I don't think what he said was so bad. Read his posting today in which he
explains himself, which I don't think he needed to bother with. There is
another posting which says that Buddha Parker may be misrepresenting him/her
self. Who can know? This is usenet after all.....
Regards,
Evelyn
LStev3234
or wrong.<
Women do the same thing. Both are myths which we perpetuate until we see that
they are self perpetuating. There's lots of ways to take the first step out of
the wheel.
> Also there is a zen element to it too, and also that it seems to be a
universal kind of guy thing, talking like that.
My guy don't talk like that. He don't think like that. He does think
differently than I do, but he doesn't think nor act like a lot of guys do.
> Furthermore I don't think what he said was so bad. Read his posting today
in which he explains himself, which I don't think he needed to bother with. <
No, but he did. oops.
> There is another posting which says that Buddha Parker may be misrepresenting
him/her self.<
How do you figure "misrepresenting"? Please explain.
>Regards,
>Evelyn
>
>
Karen Bowe
Jelich-Griffin" <jelic...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> It's an interesting question, and if I'm not being a bother, I would
> like to provide "my" answer <blush:-) (can i pway wif you)
>
> Tang Huyen wrote:
>
> >
> > My text: "Tell me who haunts you, I'll tell
> > you who you are."
> >
> > Tang Huyen
>
> The dead and dying. Their images in my dreams, the sensations and
> knowings of their presence everywhere.
>
> Beth
That is fascinating. I have always been compelled by death and dying,
myself. I know a woman who is a nurse on a terminal ward, and whenever
I run into her at parties, I make her talk shop. And I look forward to
my own death.
But what haunts me - I am too superstitious to put it into words.
Karen Bowe
<Pine.GSO.4.10.991206...@user2.teleport.com>,
> On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Karen Bowe wrote:
>
> > Oooh, baby, an opportunity to talk about myself. These are the worst
> > parts of me: I have a terrible time getting out of bed in the morning.
> >
> > I am a big slob. I have a really hard time saying no and overextend
> > myself and end up having to take long breaks to recoup and recharge,
> > during which needed activities like rent-paying do not take place. I
> > have hairs growing out of a mole on my face. I make fun of my
> > boyfriend's tummy. I am an unregenerate, Mass-going Catholic who feels
> > more guilty about neglecting zazen than she does about not going to
> > confession. I have extremely violent fantasies. I have unsafe sex.
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark....But if I'm married and in a monogamous
> relationship is it really unsafe sex?
>
> Still, something that needs offering here:
> The more Zen you do, the less Zen you are
>
Well, if I had said that, it would have been arrogant. :) Oh. . . oh.
. . I AM SO DAMN ZEN!!!!!!!!
BB
Karen Bowe wrote:
Karen,
Want to see my etchings?
No, really I do sculptures on death stuff. Do you do any art work?
Bryant
Tang Huyen
Karen Bowe wrote:
Tang Huyen: <<My text: "Tell me who haunts you, I'll tell you who you
are.">>
Beth: <<The dead and dying. Their images in my dreams, the sensations and
knowings of their presence everywhere.>>
Karen: <<That is fascinating. I have always been compelled by death and
dying, myself. I know a woman who is a nurse on a terminal ward, and
whenever I run into her at parties, I make her talk shop. And I look
forward to my own death.
But what haunts me - I am too superstitious to put it into words.>>
I must be boring to tears to both of you. I am come to peace with death,
and it does not bother or fascinate me. I do not look forward to it, or
avoid it. It just doesn't do a thing to me.
In my college years, I read and saw a play, The King is Dying (Le roi se
meurt), and still remember it as very Buddhistic: the king was all afraid
and attached, and the queen told him to let go, of this and of that, until
he had no more to let go. I can't think of any deeper meaning or mystery in
Buddhism than that.
Tang Huyen
Elizabeth J. Jelich-Griffin
Tang Huyen wrote:
>
<snip to keep server happy>
>
> I must be boring to tears to both of you. I am come to peace with death,
> and it does not bother or fascinate me. I do not look forward to it, or
> avoid it. It just doesn't do a thing to me.
I am not bothered by death, nor do I "avoid" it (your non-attached to
one part of the duality), but at the moment, I don't look forward to
it. The anniversary (1st) of a loved one's unpleasant death to breast
cancer has awakened a dislike of dying at the moment. Death itself
isn't the problem, it's how I get there, I guess.
Death has been around me all this life. My grandparents were
caretakers of the Roman Catholic cemetery in Charleston, W.VA. We
visited regularly - to reach their house on the edge of the cemetery,
you had to drive through the cemetery. Past one huge Mausoleum and
family plots, etc.
Some of the most gorgeous tombstones are there.
No, it is more that in this lifetime I am aware of so many energies
around me, without even trying (like hearing or smelling), and
sometimes I don't keep the filters up too well. (Eliminate the
attachment to the constructs and hence lose the constructs?)
Lot's of changes in this lifetime.
Beth
Mike Austin
writes
>I must be boring to tears to both of you. I am come to peace with death,
>and it does not bother or fascinate me. I do not look forward to it, or
>avoid it. It just doesn't do a thing to me.
Hi Tang,
That's quite an accomplishment, if true. I sometimes come to terms with
the idea of death, but whenever there is an actual threat of death (e.g.
a near miss on the motorway), I realise I've only come to terms with my
own mental fabrications. The reality is quite, quite different.
Like you, I am not bothered or fascinated by it. Nor do I look forward
to it or avoid it. However, I sit in a mist of ignorance if I think for
one moment that it's not going to be a mighty shock when it happens.
--
Mike Austin
margaret
Evelyn Ruut wrote in message <82jqvc$cn2$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>...
>
>margaret <marg...@mdebethlen.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:82jili$f0c$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
to
>> be rude to a man?
>Well, no Margaret, but I must tell you the boys play by their own rules,
>right or wrong.
That's quite clear, I know, but surely no reason to think of it as OK.
After all, by nature we usually operate in a Samsaric way, but no
practitioner writes that of as "just the way things are"!
>Also there is a zen element to it too,
It would be nice to think so. It's kind of you (but rather too optimistic)
to read it that way, IMO. Personally I believe one could count on half a
hand and not run out of fingers the number of times someone, man or woman,
is rude out of a genuine compassionate desire to shock another into
realisation. Perhaps, just perhaps, in your comments there is the faintest
of reflections of that almost ubiquitous female disease, "being fond of and
therefore allowing "bad boys" get away with murder"....
and also that it
>seems to be a universal kind of guy thing, talking like that.
Does that make it ok? BTW, please note that I am not thinking of any
particular poster when I comment. Anyhow, I once worked at a place where
all the guys used to make a *point* of swearing crudely as often as they
could. They weren't construction workers, but highly educated and well off
clinical psychologists. The impression I got was that they felt their
job/they themselves were not "macho" enough, and so they were going
overboard to prove otherwise. Rather than annoying me, I simply found that
posturing pathetic. I used to laugh at them.
Furthermore
>I don't think what he said was so bad.
I think the main thing is not how bad something said is or is not (which is
totally subjective in any case). It's more a case of the effect it has on
the recipient(s). In the case of someone finding it a joke and laughing,
then all's fine. In the case of someone getting extremely upset, *however*
ignorant/close minded they may or may not be, then it's definitely not ok,
and they deserve an apology if they ask for one. We are Buddhists here, and
to my mind we could do with being more concerned about whether others are
happy or not, than if someone's action was "right" or not. In my book
happiness, however blind/ignorant/shallow, wins over "rightness" every time.
>There is
>another posting which says that Buddha Parker may be misrepresenting
him/her
>self. Who can know?
Is that relevant? Even if I call myself Napoleon when everyone knows I'm
Margaret, it's still not a good situation if I am unhappy.
Margaret (!)
Mike Austin
<robina...@earthlink.net> writes
>Hope Mr. D. knocks at my door and I will be able to invite him in. A
>kindly lama with good advice beside my bed and all my friends to say
>good bye.
Hi Lynne,
Friends are OK at death as long as you don't cling to them at the time.
From Shantideva's "Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life":
At birth I was born alone
And at death too I shall die alone;
At this pain cannot be shared by others,
What use are obstacle-making friends?
>I've done all this once already in this incarnation and so have some
>experience, but it turns out there is a reprieve and Mr. D. only ended
>up leaving his card and a few scars and a white light thing.
What was that - a near-death experience?
--
Mike Austin
C Webster
Mike Austin wrote:
>
> In article <384DCE2C...@earthlink.net>, robinandlynne
> <robina...@earthlink.net> writes
>
> >Hope Mr. D. knocks at my door and I will be able to invite him in. A
> >kindly lama with good advice beside my bed and all my friends to say
> >good bye.
>
> Hi Lynne,
>
> Friends are OK at death as long as you don't cling to them at the time.
> From Shantideva's "Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life":
>
> At birth I was born alone
> And at death too I shall die alone;
> At this pain cannot be shared by others,
> What use are obstacle-making friends?
>
I survived a brush with death some months ago.(As a few of you already know.)
I can still recall several states of consciousness I experienced at that time.
During the more lucid moments, the thoughts which arose in my mind were
just as these last three lines of Santideva ... And so, even as I sensed others
(and their concerns), and still felt a certain amount of 'contact' there,
attention was definitely turning to focus inward, away from external 'obstacles'.
I experienced little, if any, mental agitation over this , rather, I recall
a certain sense of calm and a serious imperative towards prioritizing my energies in order
to prepare for the moment of death. I do not recall experiencing fear.
This recollection has taken on a 'bittersweet' quality over time as
I sense that I seem to have come to a place where I do not fear death as I once did,
however, the process has also unearthed feelings regarding fear of living...
(Now, how does that work ?)
Chris
____________________________________________________
From the Lamrim :
The Disadvantages of Not Remembering Death at all Times :
You will not remember the Dharma.
Even though you remember it you will postpone the practice.
You may try to practice but your Dharma practice will not be pure.
You will lose determination to practice Dharma and will eventually
drop it altogether.
You will continue creating negative actions and become unsuitable for liberation.
At the time of death you will feel intense regret at having wasted your precious opportunity.
LStev3234
living... >(Now, how does that work ?)
>
Cool! You have unearthed the other side of the paradox. The idea now is to
watch this fear, really watch it, and see what prompts it. My guess (which is
from a lot of experience but may not be appropo to you personally) is that the
need for control is very much part of this fear of life, as there is a great
deal of unknown in everyday life. But you may find you have other issues, so
it's best to just keep looking at your own stuff and see what comes up for you.
Many, many people are afraid of living, so what you are experiencing is not
uncommon.
robinandlynne
pity in one's friends faces and to be comforting _them_. (Breast
cancer) Thanks to Sogyal Rinpoche's wonderful book I feel confident and
at peace. This is as pointed out, the "gradual plan". In surgery this
body had a very bad reaction to the anesthetic and the surgical team
said I "died". I agree with D.T., though, and think death means dead
and dead means not "waking up" after the paddle. Here's the amusing
part (to me at least) Tina Chow was there to greet me and send me home.
(Floating, tunnel and white light followed by a very bright and
comfortable "waiting" room) Ha! Tina Chow was a beautiful Chinese
fashion and restaurant maven who died of AIDS and who I _only_ knew from
the magazine "Vanity Fair" (embarrassing admission). I think the reason
I chose her to meet me was because I had read that she went to HHDL to
ask him what to do about her AIDS and he advised her to take advantage
of western medicine and this is what I have decided to do too.
The upshot is this, I'm not afraid of dying. The experience just took
away all fear and it's not an intellectual thing. I don't go around
saying there's a great waiting rom in the sky and that's why I'm not
afraid. It's difficult to explain. As a certain irritating poster has
recently and correctly pointed out, living is WAAAYY harder. And there
is no way out but through. ("IIIII"llll be back!!!")
Yr very own and admiring (come over here and let me groom you) primate,
lynne
Tang Huyen
robinandlynne wrote:
Such a subject title!
Tang Huyen
Evelyn Ruut
robinandlynne <robina...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:384ED95F...@earthlink.net...
Ah Lynne, I am very sad to hear of this too.... and no, you don't need to
take on the responsibility of comforting me on it. Samsara truly sucks.
My brother in law also received great comfort from the TBLD. No matter what
anyone says about Sogyal, that book has been a blessing to many.
I dedicate my practices to you.
Evelyn
robinandlynne
unskillfully. I meant it as a message for Mike. My only excuse lame
excuse is a very bad day. And _then_ to mindlessly put such a header on
it. Very unskillful. This is a public apology to Mike. Please erase your
messages Tang and Evelyn. Please help me get rid of the header.
Anders Honore
Karen Bowe <ka...@desalvo.org> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:karen-E76338....@nntp.mindspring.com...
> In article <uML24.60$YS5...@news.get2net.dk>, "Anders Honore"
> <anders...@get2net.dk> wrote:
>
> > I certainly hope that these *qualities* isn't inside you. What's the
> > worst
> > part about you?
>
> Oooh, baby, an opportunity to talk about myself. These are the worst
> parts of me: I have a terrible time getting out of bed in the morning.
> I am a big slob. I have a really hard time saying no and overextend
> myself and end up having to take long breaks to recoup and recharge,
> during which needed activities like rent-paying do not take place. I
> have hairs growing out of a mole on my face. I make fun of my
> boyfriend's tummy. I am an unregenerate, Mass-going Catholic who feels
> more guilty about neglecting zazen than she does about not going to
> confession. I have extremely violent fantasies. I have unsafe sex.
>
> What are the worst parts about you?
>
Nothing. I'm perfect.
PS. Sorry for the late reply. See the 'happy one year anniversary, Tang'
thread for an explanation.
--
Anders Honore,
perfect.
