Dzogchen
Brian Reuter
I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying."
I am specifically interested in the teaching and practice of Dzogchen.
I am currently reading a book titled "The Practice of Dzogchen" (I don't
remember who the author is) to try and learn more about it. I have read
in some places that certain prerequisites are required before a person
can began the teachings and practice of Dzogchen. What are these
prerequisites and how long does it typically take to become prepared
enough to begin the Dzogchen practice. Also, what is a good way of
locating and selecting a buddhist organization to go to for instruction?
Any advice will be very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Brian
The Puddies
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Brian Reuter wrote:
Hi Brian,
I am happy that you are developing an interest in Tibetan Buddhism. I
started reading and getting interested myself about 20 years ago, and
still going strong..... in fact stronger than ever.
Try this website;
http://www.maui.net/~tsurphu/karmapa
and this one;
http://www.kagyu.org/head.html
There are many others. The second one shown has a list of centers
around the country and beyond that could help you to locate a place to
put into practice some of what you have read. If you have read some of
what you say you have, you must realize that practice is very
important. Knowledge from a book is nice, but you need the
experiential knowledge to really understand.
Good Luck
Evelyn
--
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Mark Mandell
Brian--
In addition to the book you're currently reading, I'd suggest the just
now released "Awakening the Buddha Within" by Lama Surya Das who heads
the Dzogchen Foundation in Cambridge, Mass. It is especially valuable
in pointing to the relevance of the Dzogchen tradition to the
contemporary Western scene. Also discussed is the Dzogchen meditative
practice itself. The eight sections of the book are in accordance with
the Buddhist eight fold path.
But a book even as helpful or inspirational as that is but an
"intellectual" guide. If you became sufficiently motivated by it(or
other related books on the topic)you simply have to check into a Sangha
or organization which can then address your needs best(even if it's just
to satisfy your curiosity about Dzogchen).
Michael Davis
In article <342010...@us.teltech.com>,
Brian Reuter <bre...@us.teltech.com> wrote:
>I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
>books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying."
>I am specifically interested in the teaching and practice of Dzogchen.
>I am currently reading a book titled "The Practice of Dzogchen" (I don't
>remember who the author is) to try and learn more about it. I have read
>in some places that certain prerequisites are required before a person
>can began the teachings and practice of Dzogchen. What are these
>prerequisites and how long does it typically take to become prepared
>enough to begin the Dzogchen practice. Also, what is a good way of
>locating and selecting a buddhist organization to go to for instruction?
>Any advice will be very much appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Brian
That's very ambitions, jumping into a book like
"The Practice of Dzogchen"! It's an excellent book,
but very scholarly and, IMHO, difficult especially
for beginners. I hope you get something out of it.
I'm very lucky to be able to study under a Dzogchen
master here in Toronto, Khenpo Lama Sonam Rinpoche.
What I'm about to say, is basically his words
filtered through my deluded mind :-)
The first thing to do is to find a teacher.
If you have access to the web (access to these
newsgroups doesn't imply access to the web),
then you can check out these web sites:
The Dzogchen Foundation: http://www.dzogchen.org
and our own temple: www.globalserve.net/~mungo
From there, you might find a link to a Dzogchen teacher
close to you.
If that doesn't work, then look in the yellow pages
under Buddhist temples, Buddhism, etc.
Another idea is this: tell us where you live,
and ask if anyone knows a Dzogchen teacher in your area.
As far as the prerequisites go, my teacher expects us to
practice the Foundation Practices, or Ngundro, which consists
of doing 100,000 each of prostrations, refuge vows, mandala
offerings, and Vajrasattva mantras.
Traditionally, you'd finish those before you'd get any real
Dzogchen instruction, but our teacher so far hasn't insisted
that we be finished those first, because our lifestyle here
in the west is such that we don't have as many hours in the
day to practice, as monks and nuns had in Tibet, so it may
take a few years to finish Ngundro. But he still wants us to
do it. He recently described it as being like a farmer removing
large stones from a field, and smoothing it out, before
starting to plant anything.
To answer your question, 'how long does it take?', my teacher
started teaching us Dzogchen before I even started my Ngundro,
and I expect it to take me a total of 3 years to do Ngundro,
if I do about an hour a day. After that I'll be a bit more
prepared, even though he's been teaching it to use for a while.
Finding a teacher, and a group of people to practice with
and support you, is absolutely essential. If you absolutely
can't find a Dzogchen teacher in your area, and can't move,
then perhaps you can start going to another kind of Buddhist
centre - The Shambhala Centres are very good (I'm a member
of the Toronto Shambhala Centre as well).
It's very good that you're interested in Dzogchen. IMHO,
there's nothing more valuable to study in the world
(he says, donning his flame-retardant suit...)
--
// Michael Davis, Programmer/Analyst I don't speak for Multipath. //
// mda...@DELmultipath.com Nor do I speak against them. //
// Toronto The 'DEL' in my address is an anti-spam device. //
Henrik Clausen
On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:16:01 -0700, Brian Reuter
<bre...@us.teltech.com> wrote:
>I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
>books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying."
Nice book.
>I am specifically interested in the teaching and practice of Dzogchen.
Getting advanced here! Dzogchen and Mahamudra are the ultimate
teachings of the Buddha. Great to see interest.
>I am currently reading a book titled "The Practice of Dzogchen" (I don't
>remember who the author is) to try and learn more about it. I have read
>in some places that certain prerequisites are required before a person
>can began the teachings and practice of Dzogchen. What are these
>prerequisites and how long does it typically take to become prepared
>enough to begin the Dzogchen practice.
Not being in the Nyingma lineage, I'll throw in comments on
Mahamudra, which is the Kagyu equivalent. Not that I consider
Mahamudra better, by all means go with Dzogchen if so inclined, I just
have to talk of something I know. Dzogchen is very similar, but some
details might differ that I'm not aware of.
OK, prerequisites for Mahamudra:
- Refuge from a qualified Lama, a small ritual that will connect
you to the lineage and the lama. You need to be in a lineage and to
have contact with a qualified teacher. For Dzogchen, this is Nyingma.
For Mahamudra, there are some choices, like my Karma Kagyu lineage.
Refuge is a short (few minutes) ritual with no obligations.
- Boddhisattva vow. This will motivate you to do the practice for
the benefit of all sentient beings, which is very important in order
to get the result. This is a slightly longer ritual, like 30 minutes,
and gives you the obligation to work for the benefit of all sentient
beings until the end of time (not just this life).
- Ngöndro, the Initial Practice. These are tools that prepare you
body and mind for the ultimate practice. Without it, the results will
be shallow, with it the practice of Dzogchen / Mahamudra will be easy.
This is a four part practice, each of which can take 1-2 years based
on one hour each day. Instructions for this should be taken from a
teacher of the relevant lineage. This might sound like a lot of work.
It is :-)
>Also, what is a good way of
>locating and selecting a buddhist organization to go to for instruction?
Meeting people. Some day things will just go 'click' and you'll
know your connection. The net is a good tool for finding people to
meet, though not for making the selection. Courses on Dzogchen and
Mahamudra are given quite frequently, like the one in California I
just posted.
If you want to seek out the Nyingma tradition (the Dzogchen
transmission), look at the pointers at www.dharmanet.org. For the
Karma Kagyu tradition (the Mahamudra transmission), you can go
directly to www.kkbn.com.
>Any advice will be very much appreciated.
Hope this helps.
-Henrik
Sat Tara S. Khalsa
In article <rUtjbFAL...@pema.demon.co.uk>, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Mary's obligatory anti-Sogyal stuff snipped
> Best by far Dzogchen masters operating in the west today are Dodropchen
> Rinpoche in New England, USA and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche based at
> Merigar, Arcidosso, Grosetto, Italy.
> Mary
ditto more re:NNR
Um, Mary dear, did you really expect to have a "best by far" comment like
that above go unreplied? Opinions vary, and while I certainly respect your
choices, there are several Dzogchen masters operating in the West who are,
in my opinion, AT LEAST the equals of your two recommendations. These
include, of course, my main teacher, Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, as well as
Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, and, while he's nearly impossible to study with,
the incomparable Dungtse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, HH Dudjom Rinpoche's
eldest son. In another category, in that he's quite young, but a fine
teacher and Dzogchen master nonetheless, is Tulku Thubten Rinpoche.
Additionally, Gyaltrul Rinpoche and Lingtrul Rinpoche come to mind.
We're blessed with a wealth of fine Dzogchen activity in the West, and it
seems to me that your "best by far" is a little limiting.
Love,
Kunzang Dorje
Henrik Clausen
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:24:29 -0700, MSM...@webtv.net (Mark Mandell)
wrote:
>I've brought this particular subject up for consideration due to
>divergent views about the desirability of one's having completed the
>Ngondro preliminaries prior to being introduced to the Dzogchen "view"
>by the master,
Allow me to make a commentary on Mahamudra, the Karma Kagyu
equivalent. While these are distinct traditions, they are so similar
that I hereby present a couple of notes.
>The tradition custom in Tibet has been to complete the entire Ngondro
>before the introduction to Dzogchen so as to acquire the necessary state
>of mind, a state where much of one's negative karma has been pretty
>thoroughly purified.
Yes, and the Kagyu stand still is that one should complete the
Ngondro before starting Mahamudra as a daily practice.
It has been the tradition not to teach Mahamudra before the Ngondro
was completed, but this approach has been abandoned in the later
years, giving the Mahamudra teachings more freely. It is encouraged,
though, to do the Ngondro while recieving these teachings.
>The same sentiment was also expressed by the meditation instructor at
>the three week Dzogchen retreat I attended with the Dzogchen Foundation
>who pretty much stated likewise, that one needn't have had to undergo
>the complete Ngondro so as to qualify for Dzogchen meditative practice.
Interesting. I thought that the stiff westeners in particular have
need for this preparation. We have done some experiments with an
abbriviated Ngondro, but the results are quoted as 'disappointing'.
>Yet being as subtle a practice as it is, there are indeed many who by
>virtue of karmic impurities or "defilements" simply couldn't just launch
>into it with the aim of attaining enlightenment.
My personal opinion is that the Ngondro with the appropriate
initiations also serves as a good way to clarify the goal of Dzogchen
/ Mahamudra practice.
Another point is that the Ngondro is considered a 'Perfect Vessel',
meaning that it by itself can lead to complete enligthenment in one
life. No small feat for a preliminary practice.
-Henrik
Henrik Clausen
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:05:15 +0100, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Brian Reuter writes
>>I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
>>books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying."
>FYI, Sogyal did not write this book.
Come on, he did author it. Don't let your emotions about Sogyal
Rinpoche lead to mislead people.
Not that I'd recommend him as a Dzogchen / Mahamudra teacher,
others are more suitable.
>respect for Lama Surya Das, but do not see any westerner yet capable of
>complete Dzogchen teachings and transmission.
If you accept Mahamudra as equivalent, there is Lama Ole Nydahl.
-Henrik
Mary Finnigan
Henrik Clausen writes
>
> Come on, he did author it. Don't let your emotions about Sogyal
>Rinpoche lead to mislead people.
> If you accept Mahamudra as equivalent, there is Lama Ole Nydahl.
Mary
kunukia
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:25 GMT, we received this message from
hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
:
:On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:24:29 -0700, MSM...@webtv.net (Mark Mandell)
:wrote:
:
:>I've brought this particular subject up for consideration due to
:>divergent views about the desirability of one's having completed the
:>Ngondro preliminaries prior to being introduced to the Dzogchen "view"
:>by the master,
:
: Allow me to make a commentary on Mahamudra, the Karma Kagyu
:equivalent. While these are distinct traditions, they are so similar
:that I hereby present a couple of notes.
Just a small note, it is also practiced by the Drikung Kagyu.
Perhaps not as well known in the west, but not to be forgotten.
:) Carry on....
rest snipped for brevity....
kunukia
Mary Finnigan
Kunzang Dorje:
>Mary's obligatory anti-Sogyal stuff snipped
sand.
>Um, Mary dear, did you really expect to have a "best by far" comment like
>that above go unreplied?
when you see one.
> Opinions vary, and while I certainly respect your
>choices, there are several Dzogchen masters operating in the West who are,
>in my opinion, AT LEAST the equals of your two recommendations. These
>include, of course, my main teacher, Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, as well as
>Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, and, while he's nearly impossible to study with,
>the incomparable Dungtse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, HH Dudjom Rinpoche's
>eldest son. In another category, in that he's quite young, but a fine
>teacher and Dzogchen master nonetheless, is Tulku Thubten Rinpoche.
>Additionally, Gyaltrul Rinpoche and Lingtrul Rinpoche come to mind.
gifted and competant, but not quite 100 per cent in the league that
pushes the buttons that *really* make you strive to understand. Trinley
Norbu comes close with 'Same Taste'. I have several friends who would
put his brother, Shenpen Dawa, in the super star category. I was put off
by his acceptance of the kow-towing that takes place when he walks into
a roomful of students. In my experience, it is the teachers who prefer a
more egalitarian, less syncophantic approach who outclass the others.
Mary
Kent Sandvik
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Lozang Trinlae wrote:
> Henrik Clausen wrote:
>
> >.... Refuge is a short (few minutes) ritual with no obligations.....
> (Full quote is given below)
>
> While not strictly vows, there are items of advice that should be
> followed after taking refuge. I.e., from the Lam Rim tradition:
Yes, agree, here's a listing from Geshe Michael Roach who is
excellent at tracking down the exact commitments and
vows from the scriptures:
* Not seeking refuge in wordly objects and deities once you have
taken refuge in Buddha.
* Not harming any living being once you have taken refuge in
Dharma.
* Not association closely with people who don't believe in the
path once you have taken refuge in Sangha.
* Consider any representation of Buddha, regardless of quality,
as it was Buddha himself.
* Consider any written material from a single letter up as it
were Dharma itself.
* Consider even a single scarp of the saffron robe as it were
Sangha itself.
* Going for refuge over and over by calling to mind the good
qualities of the refuge objects.
* Offering the first part of food to the refuge objects in
remembering their kindness.
* Encourage others to to take refuge.
* Take refuge six times a day.
* Put all your trust in the objects of refuge during any
activity.
* Not giving up the Three Jewels at the cost of your life, or not
even at jest.
Now, I do think these are commitments and vows, and one should
try to keep track of them, at least learn them inside out so that
one's behavior reflects these. I would not consider taking refuge
as a simple and easy commitment, one states oneself officially as
a Buddhist, and that means that one follows the three Jewels. But
it's oh so fun!
Sarva mangalam, Kent
---
"From action the diversity of the world is produced."
Kent Sandvik
Same with the Gelug tradition. I should purchase the new
Mahamudra book by HH Dalai Lama that covers both Kague and Gelug
practices...
Maybe we should discuss the issue of using clarity of the mind as
the principal meditation object for shamatah. I've read somewhere
that it's not suitable for some, it could cause problems, if so I
would like to know what kind of problems...
Henrik Clausen
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:50:17 GMT, mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:25 GMT, we received this message from
>hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
>
>: Allow me to make a commentary on Mahamudra, the Karma Kagyu
>:equivalent. While these are distinct traditions, they are so similar
>:that I hereby present a couple of notes.
>
>Just a small note, it is also practiced by the Drikung Kagyu.
All respect.
>Perhaps not as well known in the west, but not to be forgotten.
No, though I've heard of it before. What other Kagyu lineages
exist, if you know any?
-Henrik
Tyree Hilkert
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:11:10 +0100, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Kunzang Dorje:
>><...>In another category, in that he's quite young, but a fine
>>teacher and Dzogchen master nonetheless, is Tulku Thubten Rinpoche.
Shhh!!! Don't tell everyone. Then we'll have to share him.
>I only have experience of Lama Tarchin and Trinley Norbu. Both seem
>gifted and competant, but not quite 100 per cent in the league that
>pushes the buttons that *really* make you strive to understand. Trinley
>Norbu comes close with 'Same Taste'.
Hm. How much of this is the qualities of the lama, and how much is
your own traits and your karmic connection with the lama? Don't
Buddhas manifest in response to the needs of particular sentient
beings, rather than manifesting their own particular qualities? Didn't
almost everyone except Naropa think Tilopa was an annoying, crazy
beggar?
> I have several friends who would
>put his brother, Shenpen Dawa, in the super star category. I was put off
>by his acceptance of the kow-towing that takes place when he walks into
>a roomful of students. In my experience, it is the teachers who prefer a
>more egalitarian, less syncophantic approach who outclass the others.
In Ri Chos, HH Dudjom Rinpoche quotes Lama Shang Rinpoche: "To nurture
stillness, experiences, deep concentration -- these are common things.
But very rare is the realization born from within through the Guru's
blessings, which arise by the power of enthusiastic faith." (p. 12)
Or what's that quote about the sun of the student's devotion shining
on the snow mountain of the teacher, causing the blessings to flow
down? Or from Lama Tharchin's Ngondro commentary, "If your mind is
open and devotional, you can receive the Guru's blessings like rain
falling onto the soft ground." (p. 39)
Do you think the Dudjom lineage emphasizes devotion more than others?
ba...@coventry.demon.co.uk
MSM...@webtv.net (Mark Mandell) wrote:
>The tradition custom in Tibet has been to complete the entire Ngondro
>before the introduction to Dzogchen so as to acquire the necessary state
>of mind, a state where much of one's negative karma has been pretty
>thoroughly purified. But then there is a contrary view(even stated by
>the Dzogchen master Namkhai Norbu in an interview he gave recently)where
>he said that Vipassana students would be good candidates for
>introduction to Dzogchen without there being a need for the Ngondro.
>The same sentiment was also expressed by the meditation instructor at
>the three week Dzogchen retreat I attended with the Dzogchen Foundation
>who pretty much stated likewise, that one needn't have had to undergo
>the complete Ngondro so as to qualify for Dzogchen meditative practice.
>
There is more than one form of Ngondro. As I remember from CNNR's
Teachings he has taught at least one maybe two other forms of
preparatory practices. I have also heard him say that the traditional
form of Ngondro most commonly practiced in all schools today is a very
important & useful practice for clearing obstacles & that he himself
has done it more than once. I've got a quote in a transcript about
this somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.
I've not met Lama Surya Das but I remember reading on the Dzogchen
Foundation website that he considered Shine & Tonglen practices the
best preparation that westerners could have before receiving Dzogchen
Teachings.
In the end, even if you receive "high" teachings like Dzogchen you
will still practice at your own level of understanding. It is most
important that we are honest & clear enough to acknowledge this & to
work with our own condition according to the instructions of our
Teacher without getting inflated. Sadly, you see it sometimes. But is
long & demanding preparation going to make that less likely?
Best Wishes!
Barry.
Alex Wilding
Kent Sandvik <san...@relay.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>Same with the Gelug tradition. I should purchase the new
>Mahamudra book by HH Dalai Lama that covers both Kague and Gelug
>practices...
>Maybe we should discuss the issue of using clarity of the mind as
>the principal meditation object for shamatah. I've read somewhere
>that it's not suitable for some, it could cause problems, if so I
>would like to know what kind of problems...
Kent, IMHO this is exactly where it starts to get tricky. The view is
right at the heart of Mahamudra practice. One can argue, in a spirit
of ecumenism, that ultimately the view taught by the Gelugpas is the
same as that taught by the Kagyus. The sting is in the 'ultimately'.
In practice the view is approached quite differently, for all that
words like "empty", "unity of emptiness and appearance" etc. are used
all round. How many Gelugpas teach a Shentong approach, for instance?
I suspect that one big danger is nothing more dramatic than confusion,
muddle, lack of clarity of view leading to lack of confidence, lack of
ability to recognise in the true nature of the mind - in short, the
loss of the opportunity of a lifetime (or many)!
I also suspect that if one is going to mix Gelug and Kagyu approaches,
it is necessary to become quite an advanced scholar in order to
untangle the similar-but-different strands. One lineage, one qualified
teacher, one set of foundation practices - that's plenty to get on
with.
YITD
___________________________________________________________________
Alex Wilding, Translations (Ge->Eng)
Voice/Fax +44 (0)1492 585163
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~alex_w/
kunukia
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:33:51 GMT, we received this message from
hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
:
:On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:50:17 GMT, mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
:
:>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:25 GMT, we received this message from
:>hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
:>
:>: Allow me to make a commentary on Mahamudra, the Karma Kagyu
:>:equivalent. While these are distinct traditions, they are so similar
:>:that I hereby present a couple of notes.
:>
:>Just a small note, it is also practiced by the Drikung Kagyu.
:
: All respect.
:
:>Perhaps not as well known in the west, but not to be forgotten.
:
: No, though I've heard of it before. What other Kagyu lineages
:exist, if you know any?
:
I have read of a couple of others that are still active...but do
not know the names off-hand. My first 'live' contact with
Buddhism only happened a couple of months ago, with the Drikung
Kagyu Sangha, so I am very ignorant. :)
Anyone?
kunukia
Kent Sandvik
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Alex Wilding wrote:
> Kent, IMHO this is exactly where it starts to get tricky. The view is
> right at the heart of Mahamudra practice. One can argue, in a spirit
> of ecumenism, that ultimately the view taught by the Gelugpas is the
> same as that taught by the Kagyus. The sting is in the 'ultimately'.
> In practice the view is approached quite differently, for all that
> words like "empty", "unity of emptiness and appearance" etc. are used
> all round. How many Gelugpas teach a Shentong approach, for instance?
>
> I suspect that one big danger is nothing more dramatic than confusion,
> muddle, lack of clarity of view leading to lack of confidence, lack of
> ability to recognise in the true nature of the mind - in short, the
> loss of the opportunity of a lifetime (or many)!
Alex, thanks for the clarification. I totally agree that mixing
practices between tradition will not work out, unless someone has
an extraordinary background in doing so. I was mostly interested
in the commentaries I've read about using 'clarity of the mind'
as one's principal object for shamatah meditation, and in some
cases it's not recommended. I assume it depends on each
individual, for those who feel that this meditation object is
highly suitable, then it's quite OK to use it. This object is
very abstract compared with the other shamatah objects used, i.e.
images of enlightened beings. Then again using four noble truths,
loving-compassion, and so forth, are also very abstract objects.
Maybe we should use yak horns :-).
With metta, Kent
Thug
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:55:39 -0700, Kent Sandvik
<san...@relay.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, kunukia wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:25 GMT, we received this message from
>> hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
>> :On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:24:29 -0700, MSM...@webtv.net (Mark Mandell)
>> :wrote:
...
>
>Maybe we should discuss the issue of using clarity of the mind as
>the principal meditation object for shamatah. I've read somewhere
>that it's not suitable for some, it could cause problems, if so I
>would like to know what kind of problems...
>
...
One potential area for problems to arise that was addressed by both my
mahamudra and dzogchen teachers is the misapplication of such a
profound view toward the need for ethical behavior and even the need
to practice at all. It is not too difficult for some to reach
conclusions such as:
Good and evil being relative are the products of a deluded mind so the
wise have no need to practice virtue.
The path, the traveller, the travelling, and the end of the path being
one, it would be foolish to seek a path and travel it.
Being spontaneously liberated, there is no need to seek liberation.
The teacher, the teaching, and the student are playing deluded games
so avoid teachers and being a student.
You get the idea? One can see this kind of confusion all over the
Buddhist newsgroups. There was a time that Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and
other teachings were only given to sincere students after hercluean
efforts but the different lineages have concluded that rather than
risk losing these teachings in this day and age when few, students or
teachers alike, have the time or inclination, it would be better to
disseminate them more widely.
While ngondro may serve to weed out some of the less motivated, it is
not at all a hurdle standing between the student and realization.
Ngondro is loaded with insights and is both the revealer and the
revealed.
___________________________
I'd love to turn your on...
so I go for refuge...
Könchog Zöpa
Sat Tara S. Khalsa
In article <4SYHKIAe...@pema.demon.co.uk>, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
snip
> Certainly not. You of all who participate here should recognise a teaser
> when you see one.
Moi?
> > Opinions vary, and while I certainly respect your
> >choices, there are several Dzogchen masters operating in the West who are,
> >in my opinion, AT LEAST the equals of your two recommendations. These
> >include, of course, my main teacher, Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, as well as
> >Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, and, while he's nearly impossible to study with,
> >the incomparable Dungtse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, HH Dudjom Rinpoche's
> >eldest son. In another category, in that he's quite young, but a fine
> >teacher and Dzogchen master nonetheless, is Tulku Thubten Rinpoche.
> >Additionally, Gyaltrul Rinpoche and Lingtrul Rinpoche come to mind.
> I only have experience of Lama Tarchin and Trinley Norbu. Both seem
> gifted and competant, but not quite 100 per cent in the league that
> pushes the buttons that *really* make you strive to understand.
I think what we have here is a Buddhist projective test, ala the Rorshach
or, perhaps better, Thematic Apperception Test. The buttons which are
pushed are those in our own perception, complete with karmic connections.
While one teacher may push "your" buttons, others may disagree. I could
marshall lots of "evidence" that my view is "better", but it would be silly
to do so. There are some teachers who have attained greater prominence than
others, and who are recognized widely for their incredible level of
realization. (HH Dudjom Rinpoche, for example, and Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche,
as well as the 16th Karmapa (bow to the Kagyus)), while others, like Ty's
Tilopa example, labor in obscurity, but are nonetheless masterful. The
point of what I was saying is that, with all the wonderful Dzogchen
availability in the West, it is perhaps not a constructive strategy to
limit the options open to a seeker to the "ten best" list.
The teachers who push your buttons may or may not push mine. eg. Lama
Tharchin's huge open heart is a perfect antidote to my flinty intellectual
background, and perhaps NNR's laissez faire sexuality is the perfect
antidote to.....nudge nudge, wink wink say no more say no more.
Trinley
> Norbu comes close with 'Same Taste'. I have several friends who would
> put his brother, Shenpen Dawa, in the super star category. I was put off
> by his acceptance of the kow-towing that takes place when he walks into
> a roomful of students. In my experience, it is the teachers who prefer a
> more egalitarian, less syncophantic approach who outclass the others.
> Mary
love,
Kunzang Dorje
Lozang Trinlae
Dear Kent,
Thank you for posting Ven. Geshe Michael Roach's list. (I had left out
the one about offering the first portion of food (or drink).) He is very
good about listing vows and pledges; I keep the small pocket size
laminated MSTC list of the Bodhisattva vows with me at all times.
Nevertheless, my reply was calling into question whether or not taking
Refuge entailed any obligation in the strict sense of the word, and
stating the advised behavior for after taking refuge. Strictly speaking,
there is some distinction between precepts (bslab.bya)(aka advice or
admonitions) and vows (sdom.pa). The refuge 'advices' mentioned in my
and your previous posts are precepts (bslab.bya). I don't have a text of
definitions but it looks like the relationship is not mutually
inclusive. That is, a vow is also a precept but a precept is not
necessarily a vow. I am not a vinaya scholar. However a little research
shows that:
(Quoting T. Rigzin's Tibetan-English dictionary again)
"skyab.gsum.'dzin.pa'i.dge.bsnyen - A lay person ordained by refuge
precepts: A Buddhist layman who has taken formal refuge or vow of
precepts to accept the Three Jewels as the ultimate object of refuge for
one's life-time. One of the four nominally ordained lay persons.
dge.bsnyen.btags.pa.ba.bzhi - The four nominal ordained persons-
These are 1. a lay person ordained merely through seeking refuge in the
three jewels." 2., 3., and 4., are ordained lay persons observing 1, 2,
or 3 of the 5 root lay precepts, respectively. They are also called law
vows.
Still some distinction can be found between vows and precepts. Again
from Rinzin:
bslab.khrims. are the precepts and trainings, bslab.sdom are the vows of
individual liberation (aka pratimoskha/monastic vows), Bodhisattva, and
tantra.
There are differences between vows and precepts regarding the
requirements of ceremonies, witnesses, vowholders, etc., in order to
receive them. But a big question is what difference there is in terms of
obligation. I phoned a nearby Geshe about this, and was told that the
precepts (aka advice) is taken to be followed voluntarily. The vows are
promised to be kept. (I.e., an obligation is formally made)
I am not fully satisfied with this because if when taking refuge one
"vows" to accept the Three Jewels as the ultimate refuge, or when taking
lay precepts "vows" to obstain from killing and so forth, it would seem
there should an obligation to keep their promises. Or are those "vows"
merely declarations of intentions rather than sworn promises???
I hope more informed clarification of this point will be forthcoming.
Sincerely in Dharma,
Ani Lozang Trinlae
Lozang Trinlae
Henrik Clausen wrote:
>.... Refuge is a short (few minutes) ritual with no obligations.....
(Full quote is given below)
While not strictly vows, there are items of advice that should be
followed after taking refuge. I.e., from the Lam Rim tradition:
Not to take refuge in worldly gods and protectors (because your refuge
is Buddha), not to harm sentient beings (because of Dharma refuge), not
to overly associate with people holding wrong views (because of Sangha
refuge), also respecting Buddha images (and thus not prefering those
made of gold and precious materials to those of clay, etc.), respecting
Dharma texts and even a single letter as if it were real dharma,
respecting cloth from Sangha members' clothes the same as the people who
wore them, and also to repeatedly take refuge and recall the good
qualities of the Three jewels (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha), remembering the
kindness of the Three Jewels, helping others to take refuge, remembering
the benefits of taking refuge, taking refuge three times in the day and
three times at night, to trust the Three Jewels, and not to abandon the
Three Jewels, even if it means your life or even as a joke, etc.
There is more advice which the Lama offering refuge will say, and which
should be followed. It is also helpful to study Tenets before and/or
after taking refuge so one can get an idea of how to distinguish
Buddhists from non-Buddhists by definition.
Sincerely in Dharma,
Ani Lozang Trinlae
FULL QUOTE:
Henrik Clausen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:16:01 -0700, Brian Reuter
> <bre...@us.teltech.com> wrote:
>
> >I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
> >books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying."
>
Richard Menninger
Kent Sandvik wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Alex Wilding wrote:
...
> Alex, thanks for the clarification. I totally agree that mixing
> practices between tradition will not work out, unless someone has
> an extraordinary background in doing so.
It depends on which practices you mean. Now earlier
stuff can work out. I certainly have practiced any
any all bodhicitta related practices I have found,
but those are earlier stuff that is not particularly
tantric in nature. Anyway, I do such as part of
developing deep respect for all of the traditions.
Then again, some might say this is why I turned out
the way I have! ;-)
I also have read from most of the traditions and
expect to continue that trend. This covers a wide
range of material. But in formal tantric practice,
one should follow the directives of one's teacher.
> I was mostly interested
> in the commentaries I've read about using 'clarity of the mind'
> as one's principal object for shamatah meditation, and in some
> cases it's not recommended. I assume it depends on each
> individual, for those who feel that this meditation object is
> highly suitable, then it's quite OK to use it. This object is
> very abstract compared with the other shamatah objects used, i.e.
> images of enlightened beings. Then again using four noble truths,
> loving-compassion, and so forth, are also very abstract objects.
It depends on what stage you are discussing. Most
of that form of discussion of objects was for those
at earlier levels where some would just get lost
without an object that is grounded in a more
physical or visual setting in the present. This would
be shamata used as an early practice, such as I did.
Some few were still given a more formless just be in
the moment with your mind instruction, while others
followed the out-breath. Later on, there is much
more and less to it. There is much more in terms of
preparation, knowledge, and prior attainment, as well
as empowerments. There is much less in that the
endgame is the same, no special objects. At least,
that is what I have heard from various blabbermouths. ;-)
> Maybe we should use yak horns :-).
Now for me, THAT would be rather abstract, at least
in this misbegotten life.
Take care of yourself
Dick
rmenn...@lucent.com
PS: I NEVER EVER respond to e-mail spam,
not even when it says that is how to turn it off.
If you pay to get my address, you waste your money.
Henrik Clausen
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:46:24 GMT, roh...@buddhist.com (Werner
Rohmann) wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:33:51 GMT, hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik
>Clausen) wrote:
>> What other Kagyu lineages exist, if you know any?
>
>Hi!
>
>There are the "Great Four":
>and the "Lesser Eight":
>
>[from: "The Torch of Certainty", by Jamgon Kongtrul]
Thanks, I've kept that for reference. Need to buy the book someday,
too.
Actually I was more wondering which of the twelve original Kagyu
lineages are still active. Personally I only know of Karma and Drikung
Kagyu.
-Henrik
Werner Rohmann
>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:50:17 GMT, mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:31:25 GMT, we received this message from
>>hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen):
>>
>>: Allow me to make a commentary on Mahamudra, the Karma Kagyu
>>:equivalent. While these are distinct traditions, they are so similar
>>:that I hereby present a couple of notes.
>>
>>Just a small note, it is also practiced by the Drikung Kagyu.
>
> All respect.
>
>>Perhaps not as well known in the west, but not to be forgotten.
>
> No, though I've heard of it before. What other Kagyu lineages
>exist, if you know any?
Hi!
There are the "Great Four":
- Karma Kagyu, founded by Dusum Khyenpa (1110-1193)
- Baram Kagyu, founded by Barampa Dharma Wangchug (ca. 1110)
- Tshalpa Kagyu, founded by Tsondragpa (1123-1194)
- Phamo Kagyu, founded by Phamodrupa (1110-1170)
and the "Lesser Eight":
- Drikhung Kagyu
- Talung Kagyu
- Tropu Kagyu
- Drugpa Kagyu or Tod-dru Kagyu, and its subsects:
- May-drug
- Bar-drug
- Bar-ra
- Lho-drug
[from: "The Torch of Certainty", by Jamgon Kongtrul]
Greetings,
Werner
Mary Finnigan
Kunzang Dorje writes:
>
>I think what we have here is a Buddhist projective test, ala the Rorshach
>or, perhaps better, Thematic Apperception Test.
have never heard of Thematic Apperception. However, what I do detect is
a drift towards *my guru's better than your guru*, which was not my
original intention. I agree that the resonance that is generated by a
strong sense of connection with a particular teacher is something most
of us experience and appreciate. What I question, however, is that this
functions as a *quality control* mechanism. I doubt the accuracy of my
perceptions around this, for the reasons you state...emotional
condition, life circumstances,karmic proclivities etc: IMO,the proof of
the guru pudding is what is delivered *over time* in the way of workable
practices that improve the quality of daily life. If this moves one
along the path to enlightenment,IMO that's a bonus.
>Tharchin's huge open heart is a perfect antidote to my flinty intellectual
>background, and perhaps NNR's laissez faire sexuality is the perfect
>antidote to.....nudge nudge, wink wink say no more say no more.
Backtracking to para above..the je ne said quoi factor (the Tibs call it
*transmission*) seems to me to be a vital ingredient in the cocktail
that produces workable practices. There are many respected Buddhist
pundits ( eg: Richard Hayes, Stephen Batchelor) who regard transmission
as little more than an emphemeral, irrelevant, subjective emotional
response -- perhaps not unlike *falling in love*. My experience tends to
make me feel it has more substance to it and can be trusted, so long as
one does not flip out on a psychedelic *wowee*...always a tendency among
wannabe devotees! So, get to the point Mary...the quality of the
transmission is what has marked out certain Dzogchen teachers as more
effective than others. Not just the moment of *transmission*, but rather
how the transmission deepens and develops as you do the practice.
Perhaps I am stating the obvious here. Enough.
Mary
Lozang Trinlae
Alex Wilding wrote:
>
> Kent Sandvik <san...@relay.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>
> >Same with the Gelug tradition. I should purchase the new
> >Mahamudra book by HH Dalai Lama that covers both Kague and Gelug
> >practices...
I'm not sure of the source of this new English book but the text called
"The Gelugpa Mahamudra" was written by the first Panchen Lama Lozang
Chokyi Gyaltsan (1569-1662, and is mentioned in Gelug Lam Rim discourses
on developing calm abiding aka zhi.gnas or mental quiescence or single
pointed concentration as a reference for people who want to develop calm
abiding using the nature of mind itself as the object of concentration
rather than a statue of Lord Buddha, etc.
>
> >Maybe we should discuss the issue of using clarity of the mind as
> >the principal meditation object for shamatah. I've read somewhere
> >that it's not suitable for some, it could cause problems, if so I
> >would like to know what kind of problems...
I can't find any references to this meditation object causing problems
although I too remember hearing about this, but I think that for some
people, during the first 3 calm abiding stages of trying to stabilize
fixation on the meditation object, if that object is the mind itself and
is not clearly identified by the meditator, it would be difficult to
keep concentration on the object if you could not "see" it. In know that
some Nyingma teachers give their students a "pointing out" of the nature
of mind or some such. Perhaps this is intended to avoid this problem.
Another problem which is very much highlighted in Gelug texts is
mistaking subtle dullness for single-pointed concentration. I imagine
that the risks of doing this might be greater when using a subtler
meditation object, i.e., the mind itself. (Even though Lo.rig, the study
of mind and its functions is the second topic of study in the
monasteries, there sadly isn't much time for students to meditate to
apply these studies to their own minds at the same time, and so they
would need to do more so 8-10 years later when their studies are
finished and devote themselves to meditation. By then the risks could be
greater still).
>
> Kent, IMHO this is exactly where it starts to get tricky. The view is
> right at the heart of Mahamudra practice. One can argue, in a spirit
> of ecumenism, that ultimately the view taught by the Gelugpas is the
> same as that taught by the Kagyus. The sting is in the 'ultimately'.
> In practice the view is approached quite differently, for all that
> words like "empty", "unity of emptiness and appearance" etc. are used
> all round. How many Gelugpas teach a Shentong approach, for instance?
>
Actually Shentong if you are meaning the selflessness of others is taken
up in Gelug traditions more in Tantra when talking about the four
empties. But just because academically for instruction purposes the
topics are separated does not mean they aren't practiced simiarly. For
example, once the Gelug student develops the single pointed
concentration of calm abiding, regardless of whether or not they used
the mind itself as the meditation object, the next "step" is to USE that
concentration to train in special insight to develop the wisdom
realizing emptiness, i.e., the Mahamudra. Here the objects of meditation
and contemplation are usually divided into two subject areas: 1)
selflessness of personal self; and 2) selflessness of phenomena. For
number 1, first one goes through the logical contemplations to gain an
intellectual conviction of the truth of this and a clear picture of the
refuting object, i.e., inherently existing self, intellectually, then
holding this in mind meditates on the object with the single pointed
concentration, i.e., one enters meditative absorption upon this, which
resembles space. This cycle is repeated in each meditation session until
one spontaneously and continuously enters this absorption. THen there is
the methods of viewing when not in absorption; i.e., out of the
meditation session. Then the whole process is repeated to realize
selflessness of phenomena. Of course this could be done in the same
sessions but academically is a separate topic.
So actually I would guess that from a Gelug perspective, Dzogchen or
Mahamudra students using the mind itself as the meditation object, and
once they've gained single-pointed concentration on this, can just
remain right there and develop the wisdom of realizing selflessness,
etc. But if one uses a different meditation object to develop calm
abiding, as was Je Lama Tsong Khapa's tradition, then an extra effort
will have to be made to direct it to the object of selflessness.
> I suspect that one big danger is nothing more dramatic than confusion,
> muddle, lack of clarity of view leading to lack of confidence, lack of
> ability to recognise in the true nature of the mind - in short, the
> loss of the opportunity of a lifetime (or many)!
>
> I also suspect that if one is going to mix Gelug and Kagyu approaches,
> it is necessary to become quite an advanced scholar in order to
> untangle the similar-but-different strands. One lineage, one qualified
> teacher, one set of foundation practices - that's plenty to get on
> with.
>
Thankfully, The first Panchen Lama was one such person, so if the
English translation is valid, relying on it should be sufficient.
Finally, the other point found made in the Gelug tradition is that no
matter which method you follow, to make the practice different than that
of the non-Buddhists who also can gain meditative absorption of the
formless planes, etc., our practice must be done in conjunction with
bodhicitta, renunciation, refuge, correct view, etc, to be a Mahayana
practice leading to liberation and enlightenment. Of course the great
lineage masters of the different sects and schools knew and practiced
and taught this. Unfortunately, however, such statements had been made
and/or interpreted recklessly, carelessly, and unskilfully to become
great sources of enormous sectarian friction. This is nothing but
tragic. I myself have taken refuge and have gurus in all four
traditions. The collective karma of all Tibetan Buddhists is stained by
this tragedy and is in no small part of the reason why we cannot easily
go in and meditate in the most holy and extremely profoundly sacred
meditation places in Tibet that have been blessed by countless realized
beings of all traditions in the past. This is so sad. (However if you
try and don't mention anything about Tibet, and do everything secretly,
you may be able to do a 1 or 3 month retreat in such a place.)
Sincerely in DHarma,
Ani Lozang Trinlae
Mark Horowitz
To the list of "Tibetans trained in Dzogchen in Tibet" I would add Lama
Tharchin Rinpoche, H. E. Chagdud Tulku, and H. H. Kusum Lingpa, all of whom
have active centers around the U. S.
Mary Finnigan
Henrik Clausen writes
> And that the goal is the same, showing you the nature of your mind.
>Basic methods (Shine / Lachtong) are also the same. True, Dzogchen has
>methods that Mahamudra doesn't, so it's a larger toolbox but with the
>same purpose.
Dzogchen view and Mahamudra view are fundamentally different. The latter
is based on the Tantric priciple of transformation, the former on the
ideal of self-realisation -- ie: the nature of mind is present in all
phenomena, therefore there is nothing to transform. View forms the basis
of the path. It therefore seems logical that the fruit of this path is
different from the fruit of the path of transformation or the path of
renunciation, or any other path. The subtleties of this level of
realisation are beyond my ken. What I do feel secure about though, is
that to attempt to base method --ie: practice -- on both Tantric and
Dzogchen view is bound to lead to over-simplification on one extreme and
confusion on the other.
Mary
Richard Menninger
Mary Finnigan wrote:
...the quality of the
> transmission is what has marked out certain Dzogchen teachers as more
> effective than others. Not just the moment of *transmission*, but rather
> how the transmission deepens and develops as you do the practice.
> Perhaps I am stating the obvious here. Enough.
> Mary
Mary, on the subject of transmission and empowerment,
it has that character of being obvious when it is
obvious and not before. For some early practices,
such as basic Chenresig practice, empowerment or
transmission is just an aid or facilitator that enhances
the action of the practice on your obscurations and so
is not essential, but just highly desirable. It just
creates an auspicious context for the practice to have
its effects on you. Chenresig practice was given a
blanket transmission for the age by our historical
buddha. But receiving direct transmisson for it helps
further. Blanket transmissions are not as effective as
direct transmissions, but they are adequate for some
practices.
But for some later practices, direct transmission is
an essential part of the process, though it then needs
to ripen through continued practice (unless one is
one of those rare beings who are here to be an example
for the rest of us or has done the preparation entirely
too well ;-) ).
Richard Menninger
Actually, much of this depends on the specifics of
the technique of using an object such as the breath.
The technique that I learned, as taught by Trungpa,
gives an interesting blend that is effective. You
touch the outbreath and then let go and just be for
the inbreath. Then you come back to the outbreath.
When you notice mental and other events, you label
it thinking. This has some very interesting aspects
to it and seems to have less "after-taste" to clean
up than other breath object techniques. It literally
has you practicing letting go, stopping fixation.
It also has you resting in the natural state part of
the time. Pema Chodron talks about the development
of this technique by Trungpa in "When Things Fall
Apart" (she is one of my favorite dharma authors).
The letting go and resting in the natural state
lets it transcend level of practice and be a method
that can go from beginning practice through mahayana
practice into vajrayana practice where a crutch for
returning to the current moment (the outbreath) is
no longer needed or useful.
What usually happens at that point is that one does
practices that involve ALL aspects of personality
in special ways. That becomes part of TOTAL
surrendering and total transformation (it is just
dissolving incidental obscurations, but we are
talking from the vantage of the student's experience
which seems to be transformative at that time) of
personality into realization. Then, when one has
sufficiently processed one's confusion in this "all
involving" way, one goes back and does a form of
being in the moment without any crutches whatsoever.
Your vantage has changed from before and that
changes everything. Doing this from the new vantage
has a different effect than it had before. The
process is seen as different now as well.
Sat Tara S. Khalsa
In article <b9q$hAATKn...@pema.demon.co.uk>, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Nice one, Mary. There seems to be a widespread tendency to equate Dzogchen
and Mahamudra by people who don't know either. Thanks for your concise
point.
Best,
Kunzang Dorje
Henrik Clausen
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:46:58 +0000, Shardrol <shar...@bway.net>
wrote:
>Henrik Clausen wrote:
>
>>Dzogchen is very similar, but some
>> details might differ that I'm not aware of.
>
>I am afraid you don't know what you're talking about.
Sorry. I do seem to have misunderstood at least one thing.
>Dzogchen & Mahamudra are not "very similar".
>They are similar in that they are the the most advanced teachings of
>the Nyimgma & Kagyud Schools, respectively.
And that the goal is the same, showing you the nature of your mind.
Basic methods (Shine / Lachtong) are also the same. True, Dzogchen has
methods that Mahamudra doesn't, so it's a larger toolbox but with the
same purpose.
The Preliminary Practices are also very similar, except the
Nyingmapa use a different form of Diamond Mind in the second
meditation. Of course the lineage holders are different, except for
the 3rd Karmapa who also was the lineage holder of the Nyingma
tradition.
>> OK, prerequisites for Mahamudra:
>>
>> - Refuge from a qualified Lama, a small ritual that will connect
>> you to the lineage and the lama. You need to be in a lineage and to
>> have contact with a qualified teacher. For Dzogchen, this is Nyingma.
>> For Mahamudra, there are some choices, like my Karma Kagyu lineage.
>> Refuge is a short (few minutes) ritual with no obligations.
>
>No obligations, including obligations to a lineage & a Lama.
>Refuge is a ceremony by which one becomes a Buddhist - that's it.
>There is nothing in it that specifies joining a particular school or
>lineage, or becoming the student of a particular Lama.
We're talking slightly past each other. Taking Refuge gives no
obligations. But to practice Dzogchen / Mahamudra you need *both*
refuge and a connection to the lineage, a teacher you trust deeply. In
some cases, this comes at once. I might confuse things with the fact
that I got both at once :-)
>Going for refuge is something you do when you have decided to commit
>yourself to the Buddhist path.
Yes.
>This can come long before you find a personal teacher.
Or it might come with the Refuge. You need to find your personal
teacher before you can engage deeply into Vajrayana methods.
>There seems to be a great deal of confusion on this point.
Hope I'm making myself more clear now.
-Henrik
Don Martin
In article <342a3b80...@news.inet.tele.dk>,
hcla...@post4.tele.dk (Henrik Clausen) wrote:
>
> >Going for refuge is something you do when you have decided to commit
> >yourself to the Buddhist path.
>
> Yes.
>
> >This can come long before you find a personal teacher.
>
> Or it might come with the Refuge. You need to find your personal
> teacher before you can engage deeply into Vajrayana methods.
>
******* This seems to be a common misunderstanding, even among those
who have been involved with Buddhism for many years. When
one takes refuge it is with the three jewels :- Buddha,
Dharma, Sangha. Although one's teacher may well give
refuge for his/her pupils it is not neccessarily the
case, and if one takes refuge with another teacher either
before meeting one's teacher or not, it does not lessen
a pupil's committment to their personal teacher. The
point being made is that refuge is taken in the Triple
Gem not the officiator.
--
Don, Never go by appearances,
The Born-Again Buddhist. I look intelligent.
(....and again and again)
da...@cape.com
Mark Mandell wrote:
>
> I've brought this particular subject up for consideration due to
> divergent views about the desirability of one's having completed the
> Ngondro preliminaries prior to being introduced to the Dzogchen "view"
> by the master,
>
> before the introduction to Dzogchen so as to acquire the necessary state
> of mind, a state where much of one's negative karma has been pretty
> thoroughly purified.
I wouldn't say that one ngondro (or even a bunch) is going to pretty
thoroughly purify much of one's negative karma. That's a tall order.
But then there is a contrary view(even stated by
> the Dzogchen master Namkhai Norbu in an interview he gave recently)where he said that Vipassana students would be good candidates for introduction to Dzogchen without there being a need for the Ngondro.
Introduction to the state of rigpa can be done for anyone at any time.
Whether one will remain in that state is another thing entirely.
> The same sentiment was also expressed by the meditation instructor at
> the three week Dzogchen retreat I attended with the Dzogchen Foundation
> who pretty much stated likewise, that one needn't have had to undergo
> the complete Ngondro so as to qualify for Dzogchen meditative practice.
>
> Yet being as subtle a practice as it is, there are indeed many who by
> virtue of karmic impurities or "defilements" simply couldn't just launch into it with the aim of attaining enlightenment.
That is why many of these teaching are regarded as being
"self-secret"--if the accumulation of postive karma isn't there for you
to encounter them, you won't encounter the the teachings, much less
understand them or practice them.
In any case, whether through ngondro or other practices, purification of
negative karma is extremely important. It's not like you do one thing,
the switch is pulled, and that's it.
The very "goallessness" and effortlessness weeds out those who are
too set on
> attaining what they hope is the nirvanic state, failing then to uncover
> the obscurations to the primordial natural state of perfection and then
> the corollary understanding that nirvana exists within samsara.
This is why we refer to it more appropriately as "non-meditation".
I don't quite see what you're getting at.
Mary Pratt
Mary,
Did you ever consider that perhaps ranting against masters is a total
turn-off to the dharma for someone who is just meeting it? That in fact
this guy could be completely turned away from the dharma althogether as a
result? Your words read hateful and close-minded not open and spacious
like the teachings are. I know you think you are helping but why not focus
on encouraging someone towards masters you consider to be authentic, rather
than interjecting these kinds of words in your efforts to educate?
Mary Finnigan <ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<rUtjbFAL...@pema.demon.co.uk>...
> Brian Reuter writes
> >I have become very interested in Tibetan Budhhism after reading several
> >books including Sogyal Rinpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and
Dying."
> FYI, Sogyal did not write this book and it has almost nothing to do with
> Dzogchen. OK.
Kent Sandvik
On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Lozang Trinlae wrote:
> > Kent Sandvik <san...@relay.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
> > >Same with the Gelug tradition. I should purchase the new
> > >Mahamudra book by HH Dalai Lama that covers both Kague and Gelug
> > >practices...
>
> I'm not sure of the source of this new English book but the text called
> "The Gelugpa Mahamudra" was written by the first Panchen Lama Lozang
> Chokyi Gyaltsan (1569-1662, and is mentioned in Gelug Lam Rim discourses
> on developing calm abiding aka zhi.gnas or mental quiescence or single
> pointed concentration as a reference for people who want to develop calm
> abiding using the nature of mind itself as the object of concentration
> rather than a statue of Lord Buddha, etc.
The book I was talking about, but haven't read it yet, is HH
Dalai Lama's Gelug/Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra, Alex Berzin
helped edit this one. Should be available from Snow Lion,
amazon.com and bigger bookstores by now.
> Another problem which is very much highlighted in Gelug texts is
> mistaking subtle dullness for single-pointed concentration. I imagine
> that the risks of doing this might be greater when using a subtler
> meditation object, i.e., the mind itself. (Even though Lo.rig, the study
> of mind and its functions is the second topic of study in the
> monasteries, there sadly isn't much time for students to meditate to
> apply these studies to their own minds at the same time, and so they
> would need to do more so 8-10 years later when their studies are
> finished and devote themselves to meditation. By then the risks could be
> greater still).
Yes, maybe this is the key issue, that dullness by watching one's
mind makes one think they have found the object, instead they
cultivate dullness, oops. Then again, for some, clarity of the
mind, kind of a prequel to in-depth Mahamudra practice, is maybe
the best meditation object as it helps one focus on the mind and
calm it down at the same time.
> So actually I would guess that from a Gelug perspective, Dzogchen or
> Mahamudra students using the mind itself as the meditation object, and
> once they've gained single-pointed concentration on this, can just
> remain right there and develop the wisdom of realizing selflessness,
> etc. But if one uses a different meditation object to develop calm
> abiding, as was Je Lama Tsong Khapa's tradition, then an extra effort
> will have to be made to direct it to the object of selflessness.
Yes, this is an important point, and indirectly one reason I like
to use 'clarity of the mind' as the object as it makes analytical
meditation into emptiness easier to do later. There's also the
tantric aspect of Mahamudra where everything is yet again
integrated, and I don't know much about this aspect myself.
> Finally, the other point found made in the Gelug tradition is that no
> matter which method you follow, to make the practice different than that
> of the non-Buddhists who also can gain meditative absorption of the
> formless planes, etc., our practice must be done in conjunction with
> bodhicitta, renunciation, refuge, correct view, etc, to be a Mahayana
> practice leading to liberation and enlightenment. Of course the great
> lineage masters of the different sects and schools knew and practiced
> and taught this. Unfortunately, however, such statements had been made
> and/or interpreted recklessly, carelessly, and unskilfully to become
> great sources of enormous sectarian friction. This is nothing but
> tragic. I myself have taken refuge and have gurus in all four
Absolutely agree, in Tibetan Buddhism going further in the dhyana
levels is not supported, one looses more and more of the desire
realm part that could be used for Tantra and also looses
connection with renunciation, bodhichitta and correct view. I.e.
it's a subtle and very dangerious pitfall for very advanced
practitioners, but I'm not advanced, still good to be aware of
this point.
allen klarreich
Sat Tara S. Khalsa wrote:
>
> In article <b9q$hAATKn...@pema.demon.co.uk>, Mary Finnigan
> <ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Henrik Clausen writes
> > >Basic methods (Shine / Lachtong) are also the same. True, Dzogchen has
> > >methods that Mahamudra doesn't, so it's a larger toolbox but with the
> > >same purpose.
> > is based on the Tantric priciple of transformation, the former on the
> > ideal of self-realisation -- ie: the nature of mind is present in all
> > phenomena, therefore there is nothing to transform. View forms the basis
> > of the path. It therefore seems logical that the fruit of this path is
> > different from the fruit of the path of transformation or the path of
> > renunciation, or any other path. The subtleties of this level of
> > realisation are beyond my ken. What I do feel secure about though, is
> > that to attempt to base method --ie: practice -- on both Tantric and
> > Dzogchen view is bound to lead to over-simplification on one extreme and
> > confusion on the other.
> > Mary
>
> Nice one, Mary. There seems to be a widespread tendency to equate Dzogchen
> and Mahamudra by people who don't know either. Thanks for your concise
> point.
>
> Best,
Moonbeams of Mahamudra by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. He makes the point in the
text that Mahamudra is not Tantric practice, or transformation, but
rather, a more profound method that is beyond the Sutras or the Tantric
approach.
Signed
Lama Tsewang
all...@intouch.bc.ca
kim speller
In article <3424CE...@ms8.hinet.net> Post, "Lozang Trinlae" writes:
> I'm not sure of the source of this new English book but the text called
> "The Gelugpa Mahamudra" was written by the first Panchen Lama Lozang
> Chokyi Gyaltsan (1569-1662,
The text is "A Root Text for the Precious Gelug/Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra"
by the First Panchen Lama Lozang-Chokyi-Gyeltsen. The second text is not really
a text as such, but is called A Discourse on the Auto Commentary to a Root
Text for Mahamudra by HH The Dalai Lama, and is a translation and presentation
of a series of public lectures given by HH in March 1982 in Dharamsala at the
request of Lama Thubten Yeshe.
Its seems to me that Alexander Berzin whose translation it is, has performed
a task of immesurable value to bring this work of quite extraordinary
learning, clarity and insight to a wider audience. As a contribution to both
scholarship and practice, and perhaps of as great significance, to non
sectarianism, this book is of incalculable value. Every now and then
exceptional Dharma books are published, such as Journey to Enlightenment,
Heart Treasure, Enlightened Courage, the Trungpa books, Tulku Urgen's books
and others that lift the art of translation/understanding to
a higher/deeper level, this book is undoubtedly one such.
As a contribution to overcoming the football team approach to Dharma, my team
is better than your team, and I support my team so I am in competition with
your team, this book's place is assured.
It seems to me that if one were to pick one single important message of
the book is that the different points of view discussed in the book,
the different traditions of Gelug, Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya come to the same
point, and this includes both Shentong and Rangtong views, and HH speaks of
an oral tradition within the Gelugpa of a decidedly Shentong flavour.
YITD
Kim
--
kim speller : kspe...@demon.co.uk
Thug
On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:51 +0100, Mary Finnigan
<ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Henrik Clausen writes
>> And that the goal is the same, showing you the nature of your mind.
>>Basic methods (Shine / Lachtong) are also the same. True, Dzogchen has
>>methods that Mahamudra doesn't, so it's a larger toolbox but with the
>>same purpose.
Mahamudra has mehods the Dzogchen doesn't use too. It has been my
obversation the Dzogchen actually dispenses with many of the "tools"
of Mahamudra and is much more of a leaner practice.
>Dzogchen view and Mahamudra view are fundamentally different. The latter
Really!!!??? How so.
>is based on the Tantric priciple of transformation,
Are you sure about that?
the former on the
>ideal of self-realisation -- ie: the nature of mind is present in all
>phenomena, therefore there is nothing to transform. View forms the basis
>of the path. It therefore seems logical that the fruit of this path is
>different from the fruit of the path of transformation or the path of
>renunciation, or any other path.
What does the meaning of the word Mahamudra refer to?
The subtleties of this level of
>realisation are beyond my ken. What I do feel secure about though, is
>that to attempt to base method --ie: practice -- on both Tantric and
>Dzogchen view is bound to lead to over-simplification on one extreme and
>confusion on the other.
>Mary
I do believe there are a whole slew of Dzogchen tantras.
It is my firm belief that Dzogchen and Mahamudra lead to exactly the
same place but by subtley different methods.
Dzogchen involves meditating on an affirming negative; a conceptual
designation that is by definition empty of existing in an impossible,
fantasized manner (Rigpa, the guru within, the original ground of
one's own awareness, etc.)
Mahamudra involves meditating on a non-affirming negative by
developing a blissful, most subtle, clear light mind, through special
techniques and then investigating the nature of that mind, not finding
one, and then meditating on the meaning of the "not found."
Both will reveal (rather than transform) the blessing of spontaneous
liberation.
I feel that Dzogchen has greatly illuminated my practice of Mahamudra
and vice versa.
If you find the practice of these techniques is leading to confusion
or over simplication you haven't found the view of either.
Richard Menninger
Yes each stage of vows has a distinct purpose
and effect. Refuge is basic connection and
is not binding to a teacher. You can even
take refuge via a teacher who then seemingly
goes off the deep end, as I did, and not harm
your connection to the teachings. That teacher
was Trungpa's regent back in the mid-seventies.
Richard Menninger
Mary,
Tantra is a method of preparation for either
Mahamudra or Dzogchen and is neither. Mahamudra
is not tantra and neither is Dzogchen. Mahamudra
and Dzogchen both rely on preparatory work that
helps bring one's view to the right point. One's
view is strictly governed by the level of remaining
obscurations one has to dissolve still. Some play
at adopting a "view" that differs from that context
of their actual current experience, but that becomes
a little fishy. One may study views as part of
seeing one's current texture better and as part of
cutting through your problems. But if you are at the
cutting through problems stage, that is your inherent
view. If you are at the coalesce the result stage,
then that is your inherent view. You are well past
projection of view before you get to either mahamudra
or Dzogchen. View is very direct and immediate. It
is more what you are rather than what you have at
that point. It is visceral rather than intellectual.
Mary Finnigan
Richard Meninger -- what you write about Dzogchen view bears no
relationship to the expositions of the masters I have encountered. You
speak with such apparent authority that it borders on condescention --
where do you acquire your information? To say that most of what you
write is idiosyncratic is putting it mildly.
Mary
allen klarreich
Mary Finnigan wrote:
>
> >Nice one, Mary. There seems to be a widespread tendency to equate Dzogchen
> >and Mahamudra by people who don't know either. Thanks for your concise
> >point.
> expression that I have been able to integrate Dzogchen view into my
> daily life. What small understanding I now have is enormous compared to
> my previous ignorance.
> MaryOh really,
Like the patently ridiculous idea that Dzogchen comes from Zhang Zhung,
or how about the idea that Bonpos believe that Sakyamuni was a Bonpo
follower.
Signed
Lama Tsewang
all...@intouch.bc.ca
Mary Finnigan
Mary Finnigan
>
Mary Pratt
>Did you ever consider that perhaps ranting against masters is a total
>turn-off to the dharma for someone who is just meeting it? That in fact
>this guy could be completely turned away from the dharma althogether as a
>result? Your words read hateful and close-minded not open and spacious
>like the teachings are. I know you think you are helping but why not focus
>on encouraging someone towards masters you consider to be authentic, rather
>than interjecting these kinds of words in your efforts to educate?
cloud cuckoo land. If someone is turned off approaching Sogyal, I would
be delighted. Do you think that what he gets up to would *help* someone
understand either themselves or Buddhism? In my view, quite the
contrary. I suggest you read up on some of the dozens of case histories
I have on record. There is *no* doubt around this. I also suggest you
read Oct. edition of Esquire mag, where your friend Nancy Griffin writes
in a similar vein. She is also a dharma student, but in the words of the
ever-succinct Josh Baran, *knows shit from shinola*. IMO, idealising all
lamas is as silly as idealising all politicians. In entering the stream
we do not have to suspend judgement or leave our common sense at the
temple door along with out shoes.
Mary
Mary Finnigan
Lama Tsewang
>Like the patently ridiculous idea that Dzogchen comes from Zhang Zhung,
>or how about the idea that Bonpos believe that Sakyamuni was a Bonpo
>follower.
Strong whiff of sectarianism here
Mary
Richard Menninger
Mary Finnigan wrote:
> Richard Meninger -- what you write about Dzogchen view bears no
> relationship to the expositions of the masters I have encountered.
Then I will have to quote sources. What you say differs
from all I have studied in its fundamental tone, and that
includes all Dzogchen sources I have studied (quite a few).
I picked a set of books off the shelf to cart into work to
try to find quotes from "masters" for you. It is by no means
an exhaustive set as I have read stuff in so many sources
that correspond to what I said. But first, there is the
matter of clearing up the referents of the terms mahamudra
and dzogchen. These often get used to refer to the whole
tradition of practices that lead to the actual practices
that are called dzogchen or mahamudra, but that is somewhat
like Madison Avenue (the advertising world) using the peak
or best feature to describe the whole thing. Your use has
to be that of just the peak practice that has those specific
names (the other practices have other names and have
intermediate [or interim] views associated with them) or it
is not meaningful to refer to "A" view in reference to them.
[ You had said: "Dzogchen view and Mahamudra view are
fundamentally different. The latter is based on the Tantric
priciple of transformation, the former on the ideal of
self-realisation -- ie: the nature of mind is present in all
phenomena, therefore there is nothing to transform."]
So, my first source is the Glossary of "Lamp of Mahamudra"
by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, translated by Erik Pema Kunsang
as encouraged by (and stated in Forward by) Dilgo Khyentse
Rinpoche and ordered by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (stated in the
Translator's Preface). DZOGCHEN OF THE NATURAL STATE:
Synonymous with trekcho, the view of "cutting through" and
identical to "essence mahamudra" [rem: these two are the peaks
of each respective path].
From the same source: ESSENCE MAHAMUDRA: The essential view
of mahamudra introduced directly and without being dependent
upon philosophical reasoning (as in sutra mahamudra) or yogic
practices (as in mantra mahamudra).
As quoted in the Introduction of "Lamp of Mahamudra":
"As the great master Trangpo Terton Sherab Oser wrote:
Mahamudra and dzogchen
Differ in words but not in meaning.
In terms of ground, path, and fruition, ground mahamudra
is the nonarising essence, unobstructed nature, and
expression manifest in manifold ways. The dzogchen
teachings describe these aspects as essence, nature, and
compassion.
Path mahamudra is naked, ordinary mind left to rest in
unfabricated naturalness.
Fruition mahamudra is the final seizing of the dharmakaya
throne of nonmeditation. ..."
So it seems there is some basis in accepted teachings for
what I said. But lets see what else can be found in the
stack of books I grabbed when I woke up in the middle of
the night and remembered on the way to the bathroom.
Ah, the next one is the mother lode. Its title is: "The
Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen" by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche,
translated by Erik Pema Kunsang. It seems that it is based
on a seminar given in 1985 that was based on a text entitled
"The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, The Direct Instructions
of the Great Compassionate One" written by Karma Chagmay the
First (1605-70) (he had tremendous impact on the Kagyu and
Nyingma lineages [a statement from the translator's preface].
You need to read that book!
In the book "Mahamudra: the Quintessence of Mind and Meditation"
by Takpo Tashi Namgyal, you find statements such as "Mahamudra
does not employ tantric methods per se. Mahamudra meditation
represents the nonmystical direct approach." It distinguishes
the important gradual path which contains Buddhist tantra from
the mahamudra tradition, even though the mahamudra (and dzogchen)
usually ride on top of that basis of preparation.
Mahamudra IS directly related to shamatha, vipassana, and
shamatha/vipassana. That is, the Tranquility and Insight
traditions lead directly to it. Tantra is just a shortcut
for part of the earlier preparation, a part that is very
hard treading by that tradition alone. But this basis is
also why I fundamentally respect traditions that are mainly
Tranquility and Insight based.
I could also find stuff on tantra as praparation for
Dzogchen as it is extensively covered as such in the
major Dzogchen books that cover the whole path. I did
not bring those books, it seems.
> You
> speak with such apparent authority that it borders on condescention --
> where do you acquire your information? To say that most of what you
> write is idiosyncratic is putting it mildly.
> Mary
Well, several parts of what I have said are covered above.
So, maybe you are reduced to having a problem with what I
said on views in general. Well that was discussed from a
mahamudra/dzogchen perspective instead of earlier ones.
Early on, you do adopt a view and practice eventually
transforms it into a more correct view while losing the
pretend quality you started with. It is no longer a
projection. This corresponds to cutting through spiritual
materialism thoroughly. That "adopt a view" is somewhat
fishy. But it is as good as you can do at first. But
later it is VERY direct, visceral, and not so intellectual.
Intellect is excess baggage at the mahamudra/dzogchen level.
It is just another tool to use when needed.
If you need quotes for that, I will have to dig but they
are around in very mainstream sources.
So, to the contrare.
allen klarreich
da...@cape.com wrote:
>
> Mark Mandell wrote:
> >
> > I've brought this particular subject up for consideration due to
> >
>
>
any need for previous preparation, people love to hear about dzogchen and
effortlessness and all that.
But what about things like the three principal paths, you know, that
boring stuff about renunciation, bodhicitta and the right view of
emptiness. Its very good for a teacher to talk all about Dzogchen but
what about helping people to actually, make use of this in their lives. I
remember I took one of my students with me to see Lingtrul rinpoche , rin
poche said that Dzogchen cannot be practiced with the mind , it is a
practice that is done with wisdom, anything where you are working with
the mind is a preliminary to Dzogchen, not the main body of practice. I
think that what you have said that Surya Das said, is a very serious
wrong view, and possibly quite harmful to students.
I have found through experience, that the thing most transformative for
students is to learn the three principal paths, this really makes a
person into a bodhisattva, then Dzogchen is a natural outcome.
Signed,
Lama Tsewang
all...@intouch.bc.ca
Brian Reuter
I just want to thank everyone for the replies I received from my original
post. It looks like some people don't like Sogyal Rinpoche or his books
very much. Well, no matter because I have read several other books on
buddhism written by several different authors, not all Tibetan buddhists.
It's just that the Tibetan form seemed to make the most sense to me (I
base this on not just what I read by Sogyal, but also the talks I have
read by Lama Surya Das and books by the Dalai Lama). I am certainly no
expert, but these things have created an interest in me.
I am currently following up on some of the suggestions I have received
from all of you. Thanks again for all of the information.
Brian
Mary Pratt
> >
>Sorry Mary, but as you are blunt I will be too. You are writing from
> cloud cuckoo land. If someone is turned off approaching Sogyal,
<snip>
Now, Mary Finnigan, when you say that I am writing "from cuckoo land" would
that be your professional assessment of my geographical location or are
you, again, attacking me personally rather than addressing the issues that
I raise? (See: Re: Seagl/Esquire article). Hee hee. And, um, what would
be your motivation here? Kindness and compassion towards me? I hope you
recognize that your words might cause others hurt and anger. This is why I
wrote my original email. Because I see that the way you are expressing
yourself might cause others hurt (being turned off from the dharma) or
anger (being attacked on a personal level).
>I would
> be delighted. Do you think that what he gets up to would *help* someone
> understand either themselves or Buddhism? In my view, quite the
> contrary. I suggest you read up on some of the dozens of case histories
> I have on record. There is *no* doubt around this. I also suggest you
> read Oct. edition of Esquire mag, where your friend Nancy Griffin writes
> in a similar vein. She is also a dharma student, but in the words of the
> ever-succinct Josh Baran, *knows shit from shinola*. IMO, idealising all
> lamas is as silly as idealising all politicians. In entering the stream
> we do not have to suspend judgement or leave our common sense at the
> temple door along with out shoes.
> Mary
That's great that you are very careful about examining masters. The
teachings tell us again and again to examine our teachers carefully. So
... examine them! His Holiness the Dalai Lama even tells us that it take
twelve years to find your master. Twelve years! But I think it's a far
cry from making a careful examination of a master yourself, and advising
others to do so too, to blabbing a bunch of negative gossip all over the
press and all over mailing lists and newsgroups. The choice of a master is
a highly personal matter.
The teachings also say "not the teacher but the teachings," right? How many
stories can you think of -- in the teachings -- in which a master put
horrible abuses on a student but that student, themselves, chooses to stick
with the master anyway. That's up to the student, it's their
responsibility. In fact I do think it might be better to check your
tendency towards negative judgments along with your shoes at the door.
Bring in your discriminating wisdom, but please, do, check your judgments.
What one takes to be the wisest of judgments might just be the rumblings of
a big ol' ego.
But, hey, I could be wrong. I would appreciate the debate.
Mary Finnigan
This is tantalising...my news server has failed me -- I never got the
whole rant. Could someone re-post it for me please or e-mail to
ma...@pema.demon.co.uk? Thanks
Must be Mary Pratt
>>Now, Mary Finnigan, when you say that I am writing "from cuckoo land" would
>>that be your professional assessment of my geographical location or are
>>you, again, attacking me personally rather than addressing the issues that
>>I raise?
Ty -- thanks for the Norbu stuff on cuckoos -- brings the warp and weft
of Tantra/Dzogchen symbolic meaning into focus :-)
Mary
Tyree Hilkert
On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:50:33 -0700, "Mary Pratt" <m...@well.com> wrote:
>Now, Mary Finnigan, when you say that I am writing "from cuckoo land" would
>that be your professional assessment of my geographical location or are
>you, again, attacking me personally rather than addressing the issues that
>I raise?
Why, I think she MUST have meant that as a compliment...
"In Tibet the cuckoo is a symbol that nature is beginning to breathe
again after the cold winter. When the cuckoo sings everybody is happy
because finally the ice and snow of winter are beginning to melt...
Tibetans who have not heard the cuckoo will go to the mountains to
look for one. It has to do with Tibetan psychology. There is even a
name for a person who has not heard the cuckoo for a long time, called
'jyahon' (bya.'on), given to those who are 'deaf to the cuckoo,' who
have illnesses such as low blood pressure. Such a person is actually
asked to go in search of a cuckoo to hear it earlier. Surely it is not
the voice of the cuckoo that serves the medical purpose. Because of
the symbolic meaning of the cuckoo, Vairocana used it in the title for
this text."
- Rigbai Kujyug (The Cuckoo's Cry of the State of Awareness):
The Six Vajra Verses, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, p. 5
- Ty
Lita
Mary Finnigan wrote:
>
IMO, idealising all
> lamas is as silly as idealising all politicians. In entering the stream
> we do not have to suspend judgement or leave our common sense at the
> temple door along with out shoes.
> Mary
Mary, Thanks. We need to hear opinions such as these regarding critical
thinking and faith in the Dharma.
Peace, Lita
Karen Walker
I went last weekend to a seminar on healing. There were more than a
hundred healers there. The leader is famous for her healing abilities
and her teaching on chakras. She mentioned the information available on
the net, saying: you can go online and read the discussions of a bunch
of buddhists who are arguing dogma and not remotely resembling the
essence (of buddhism).
I'd like to add something to that. Many of the pickier dogma-boxers
here are stuck in the third chakra, they are editors rather than
writers, and it is power, not love, which motivates them -- being
"right". They approach not with the flow of Aikido, accepting the
others energy and turning with it, but with the finesse of Karate.
What's missing? Use of Third eye or above awareness -- that capacity to
see where other people are coming from rather than stomping them in a
Godzilla meets Bambi "Wow ain't I great, look ma, all head!" style --
that, and a good strong sense of love (love as in that which moves
mountains) -- That approach shows up, but it does not set the tone for
this group. That heart chakra energy is drowned out.
Jesus Christ, I can't believe this needs saying. Where the hell are you
people coming from, perpetually beating your meat this way. I see the
same names, over and over again, magnified by the glory of the net. I
can see it for a while. Sure. Gotta be right. Gotta know mo' -- know
bettah. But don't you ... as Hemingway so beautifully put it, "have a
built in shock proof shit detector"?
I got a mailer from the local Shambhala Center with an article on how
to meditate by some Rinpoche. It was so excellent I started checking
the calendar... maybe I can get over there ... What drew me was not his
intellectual expertise but his simplicity and directness. His
humanness.
Nov.1/2
Gabriel Stux, M.D., head of the German Acupuncture Society, will be
teaching a Chakra Acupuncture class at Emperor's College, Santa Monica,
CA.
Lozang Trinlae
Dear Karen,
Your post is very interesting. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted it, but
it looks like there are a lot of assumptions being made about the
motivations of the people who post in our newsgroup specifically, and
our tradition generally. Speaking for myself personally, please allow me
make a few points that might help you gain a better understanding of
things:
Firstly, I don't approach this newsgroup as a special love-in session,
but do hope that love and mutual respect and compassion can permeate
through the subject matter of the posts. There are other characteristics
of the nature of this newsgroup that perhaps outpower any touchy-feely
lovability of the newsgroup.
Perhaps the most powerful thing I find about the a.r.b.t. newsgroup is
that it is perhaps the first time EVER in thousands of years of Tibetan
Buddhist history that actual interactive communication about Tibetan
Buddhism and related issues is carried our between and among students of
all the main four Tibetan Buddhist lineages. This is a very historical
event and has everything to do with how our traditions will survive in
the future, hundreds and thousands of years from now.
Although perhaps a weakness of the newsgroup that there aren't more
international contributors, many are coming from a western perspective.
This is also important and historical because it helps us who are
westerners to see how far we have come and have to go in our experiences
as western students who are intimately connected with our practices and
teachers, who are almost all Tibetan. Perhaps a newcomer would have a
harder time appreciating that there was a time very recently when, in
the USA at least, there were no Tibetan groups, formal Dharma centers,
chanting monks on tour, online mailorder of Buddhist books, etc., let
alone online interactive newsgroup discussion. It was the efforts of the
first pioneering western Buddhists that such things exist now, including
things like Naropa Institute and Shambala and Tricycle magazines. I am
very happy there are Buddhist newsgroups.
Furthermore, lively unashamed debate as well as friendly advice and
discussions have long been a part of the Buddhist tradition. While it is
nice to fly high in the sky in the crown chakra, in order for such to
benefit others and ourselves, our practices should be grounded in solid
intellectual understanding of WHY we do what practices we do. What you
called meat-beating is part of a millenia old tradition of helping one's
fellow practitioners along their own respective paths of practice and
understanding. If I have wrong and mistaken views about the Buddhist
path, I am relying on, and it is my heartfelt hope for, my fellow
students and practioners to come forth to correct me and point out the
more reliable and correct views, and point out the areas of my own
doubts in understanding. It is a sign of deep heartfelt compassion that
Buddhists regard it as our unconditional duty to take the time to try
and clarify points where they can, to the best of their ability, for
their fellow dharma brothers and sisters. As the first generation or so
of western Buddhists, mostly many of us have tried to educate ourselves
the best we can, usually without any formal institutional training,
often in a piecemeal fashion according to the availability of the
teachings of the holy Buddhadharma. In this context it is difficult for
one person to know everything about every Buddhist topic. Therefore a
newsgroup is exceedingly helpful because people can contribute according
to their own personal areas of knowledge and experience.
Lastly, I myself am new to this newsgroup, due to mostly technical
reasons. I have never met or known the people here before, but regard
each and every one of them as very very precious because, aside from
being sentient beings in general, they share the sincere devotion to
their teachers, practices, and traditions, i.e., in short, to the
Buddhadharma. More than likely many of us have been at some of the same
teachings and initiations before, and are thus related on an even more
intimatly profound level. Furthermore, as a western Buddhist, who has
not lived in the west or English-speaking country for a few years now, I
regard it as very good fortune to be able to listen and share
perspectives on the Tibetan Buddadharma with people of my own culture. I
am relying on them in this and my future lifetimes to preserve and
advance our traditions so they will still be here for others and myself.
For this reason, Karen, I can assure you that my respect and admiration
for the other people of the a.r.b.t. newsgroup is infinitely deep, even
if I don't always feel like I've come from a love-fest or otherwise
warmhearted occasion when I log off.
Sincerely with prayers for your quick enlightenment,
Ani Lozang Trinlae
The Puddies
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Karen Walker wrote:
> I went last weekend to a seminar on healing. There were more than a
> hundred healers there. The leader is famous for her healing abilities
> and her teaching on chakras. She mentioned the information available
> on
> the net, saying: you can go online and read the discussions of a bunch
>
> of buddhists who are arguing dogma and not remotely resembling the
> essence (of buddhism).
(much of message snipped here)
> Jesus Christ, I can't believe this needs saying. Where the hell are
> you
> people coming from, perpetually beating your meat this way. I see the
> same names, over and over again, magnified by the glory of the net. I
> can see it for a while. Sure. Gotta be right. Gotta know mo' -- know
> bettah. But don't you ... as Hemingway so beautifully put it, "have a
> built in shock proof shit detector"?
Karen, do you really not understand that these newsgroups are open to
anyone? These are not moderated groups, and I think that you are being
just a bit unkind here. That is even less 'buddhist' than the
postings you seem to be complaining of. A little kindness and
compassion would go a long way further than this blanket criticism which
seems most unworthy of any person with the wisdom and kindness to be
attending a seminar on chakras.
> I got a mailer from the local Shambhala Center with an article on how
> to meditate by some Rinpoche. It was so excellent I started checking
> the calendar... maybe I can get over there ... What drew me was not
> his
> intellectual expertise but his simplicity and directness. His
> humanness.
I think you ought to go and check it out. Simplicity, Directness and
Humanness are great ways to relate to people........ much better than
blanket criticisms, curses and smug, holier than thou-ness.
You need to re-read what you wrote, and see that there are more
constructive ways of dealing with ignorance and confusion that the
entire human lot of us suffer from, (not just buddhists). I also
suggest that you keep on reading here, and hanging out here, since we
truly need some superior wisdom. Perhaps you will continue to grace
us?
With fondest regards,
and with many prayers for your happiness, enlightenment and freedom from
suffering.
Evelyn
--
******************************************************
Peter and Evelyn Ruut pud...@frontiernet.net
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.___.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' '
(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-''
"We are what we think, all that we are arises with our thoughts"
.....The Dhammapada
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--------------3FD3BD8C70FACDC99E6B1613--
Mary Finnigan
Ani Lozang Trinlae writes with quotable insight, kindness and clarity
about the value of a.r.b.t I endorse every word. I also request
lurkers like vajra-brother Barry for example to emerge from the shadows
and take your place in the cyber-mandala :-) At a wild, wierd and
wonderful party in London on Friday he leapt out of the the ganapuja
that kicked off the proceedings, brandishing his big drum, hugged me and
said *hello scourge of the internet.* We need more of your kind here,
Barry, to balance out those who tend to take themselves rather
seriously.
Mary
Richard Menninger
Karen Walker wrote:
> I went last weekend to a seminar on healing. There were more than a
> hundred healers there. The leader is famous for her healing abilities
> and her teaching on chakras.
I am curious, was she buddhist or hindu in general background.
A buddhist is not so likely to be "famous" for healing, per se,
as it would just be another practice that we do and no big deal.
Also, there are lots of teachings on chakras, but a lot of them
make a big deal out of them when they are just secondary issues
and side-effects of serious practice. Note that this is a big
difference between hindu and buddhist tantra in emphasis. A
buddhist is not likely to give public teachings on chakras as
that leads to blatant spiritual materialism in general audiences.
That makes it unskillful. Were there any advanced buddhist
practitioners there? I am curious. By the way Healing Buddha
practice is a basic practice that is publicly available and all
can do, though an initiation might make it more effective. The
form I do is based on that in:
The Healing Buddha
A practice for the Prevention and Healing of Disease
Composed and translated by Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche
Wisdom Publications, Boston, MA (USA)
which I happened to get at WIsdom Books (no relation to
the publisher) in London, UK.
Try it. I do it in a minor variation of that in given above,
as I do it as a practice to benefit others. You can target
others or places. It is an excellent bodhisattva practice.
> She mentioned the information available on
> the net, saying: you can go online and read the discussions of a bunch
> of buddhists who are arguing dogma and not remotely resembling the
> essence (of buddhism).
Does she understand that essence. That can come only
through long and serious buddhist practice, which has
a distinct flavor from hindu practice. Also, debate
as part of intellectual study (an absolutely essential
adjunct to serious practice) is considered a central
part of such study. What you see here is mild compared
to what happens in many Tibetan Buddhist monasteries.
Also, it is a forum that has no credential requirements
for participants. Some are not even buddhists or are
only shoppers as yet. Since you post4ed as a reply to
a post of mine, was this intended in some way as a
comment on my post? Just curious> But a slightly more
direct comment would help to address whatever point you
wanted to make about what I said, if so. If not, well
you are getting a response from me anyway, as I am not
afraid to interact very directly.
> I'd like to add something to that. Many of the pickier dogma-boxers
> here are stuck in the third chakra, they are editors rather than
> writers, and it is power, not love, which motivates them -- being
> "right". They approach not with the flow of Aikido, accepting the
> others energy and turning with it, but with the finesse of Karate.
You think you can tell chakra states from interaction here?
There are many styles of doing what you are describing, and
each can be effective. To ego patterns of interpretation,
much seems offensive or harsh that is actually methods of
bringing stuff up to the stage of the moment that ego never
wants to be there. There is a saying in tibetan buddhist
circles that the job of a realized vajra master is to insult
you (meaning your ego). They can take a no holds barred
aproach to working with you. By the way, the above comment
sounds like parroting of another's opinion that you just
adopted.
> What's missing? Use of Third eye or above awareness -- that capacity to
> see where other people are coming from rather than stomping them in a
> Godzilla meets Bambi "Wow ain't I great, look ma, all head!" style --
> that, and a good strong sense of love (love as in that which moves
> mountains) -- That approach shows up, but it does not set the tone for
> this group. That heart chakra energy is drowned out.
On what basis are you assuming you can recognize this
without an extensive basis of practice? The opening of
chakras is a side-effect of practice. How things look
changes radically many times as one progresses through
practice. But each such is clearer and simpler than
before. Teachings become direct and visceral rather
than just more external intellectual games as part of
that, but slowly, oh so slowly. The study is learning
the words, but practice allows the sense to dawn on one.
What you see her is the learning the words. But that is
absolutely essential as a first step to the sense of the
teachings. That is how the dharma really works, even if
it fails to meet your expectations.
> Jesus Christ, I can't believe this needs saying. Where the hell are you
> people coming from, perpetually beating your meat this way.
That may be more your projection and that of whoever put
that slant in your mind rather than what is actually the
game that is afoot here. Sure, there are some who still
relate to the dharma as an ego-trip. There always are.
But you seem to equate participation with that. That is
a very stupid stance (I am very direct, too!).
> I see the
> same names, over and over again, magnified by the glory of the net.
Now that is an interesting stance. I have never seen
this as glory. It is more of an electronic coffeehouse
for free discussion. Glory? Oh my. I don't think so.
Did YOU feel glory with YOUR post?
> I
> can see it for a while. Sure. Gotta be right. Gotta know mo' -- know
> bettah. But don't you ... as Hemingway so beautifully put it, "have a
> built in shock proof shit detector"?
Only through a lot of practice does anything like that
develop. There is no silver bullet, none at all. It
is long hard work and a LOT of debate is part of it.
Have you EVER attended a debate where one side did not
take a stance of "certainty"? If you have, you know
that they lost credibility as that is one of the first
things to learn about debating, even in mundane issues.
One make statements. If another questions them, one
finds sources that back the stance and provides them,
assuming they exist. Note that the post you "replied"
to was part of such an exchange. When the response was
that masters had said different, I quoted formal
published sources on the subject matter that support
the statements I made. That is how one studies this
stuff.
> I got a mailer from the local Shambhala Center with an article on how
> to meditate by some Rinpoche. It was so excellent I started checking
> the calendar... maybe I can get over there ... What drew me was not his
> intellectual expertise but his simplicity and directness. His
> humanness.
Well that would be a useful thing to do. Find out
what this is more directly than just mouthing the
derogatory statements of others as your own. At
least that is how your post came across. The simple
and dirsct approach is to say so. Now if you have
a content based comment, have a shot. You never
learn this stuff withou stepping out and being
willing to get shot full of holes. Many of those
who particilate all of the time are just doing that.
It is actually strongly encouraged behavior. If one
is right, great. If one is found to be wrong, WOW,
even better. That is the way to study this stuff.
It does take a lot of practice to find that simplicity
and directness that has been there covered over, but
if the description connected with you, go find out,
or not. It is up to you and has to come from you, in
any case.
ba...@coventry.demon.co.uk
Mary Finnigan <ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
OK I'll manifest myself briefly (dare I not;-) just to say that I too
agree with what Lozang Trinlae has said.
With respect to the intellectual bias in the group, yeah, but this is
a written form of communication, what do you expect? Incoherent
bollocks like you get in some other places around here? At least most
of the posters here have something to say about something which they
feel is important .
As far as feelings go, someone was once a teeny weeny bit nasty to me
on the group but for the most part I always get the feeling that
contributors wish one another well. & have you noticed how often
people actually apologise or say "thanks, point taken" in discussions
here? That counts for something in my book.
Not a great one for Dharma-Gossip, but it serves a purpose, perhaps!
Love to all, Barry.
Best party I've been to for a while!
Michael Sullivan
Richard Menninger wrote:
> [ You had said: "Dzogchen view and Mahamudra view are
> fundamentally different. The latter is based on the Tantric
> priciple of transformation, the former on the ideal of
> self-realisation -- ie: the nature of mind is present in all
> phenomena, therefore there is nothing to transform."]
>
> So, my first source is the Glossary of "Lamp of Mahamudra"
> by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, translated by Erik Pema Kunsang
> as encouraged by (and stated in Forward by) Dilgo Khyentse
> Rinpoche and ordered by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (stated in the
> Translator's Preface). DZOGCHEN OF THE NATURAL STATE:
> Synonymous with trekcho, the view of "cutting through" and
> identical to "essence mahamudra" [rem: these two are the peaks
> of each respective path].
Regarding the "rem:"
I would think that thogal would be viewed as the "peak" of the Dzogchen
path, if by peak you mean "highest practice".....
In terms of view we talk about ultimately the same thing. The
difference lies in method.
Michael Sullivan
michael....@mixcom.com
in...@chopa.com
In article <un+SnBAM$NK0...@pema.demon.co.uk>,
Mary Finnigan <ma...@pema.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> Mary Pratt
> >Did you ever consider that perhaps ranting against masters is a
total
> >turn-off to the dharma for someone who is just meeting it? That in
fact
> >this guy could be completely turned away from the dharma
althogether as a
> >result? Your words read hateful and close-minded not open and
spacious
> >like the teachings are. I know you think you are helping but why
not focus
> >on encouraging someone towards masters you consider to be
authentic, rather
> >than interjecting these kinds of words in your efforts to educate?
would
> be delighted. Do you think that what he gets up to would *help*
someone
> understand either themselves or Buddhism? In my view, quite the
> contrary. I suggest you read up on some of the dozens of case
histories
> I have on record. There is *no* doubt around this. I also suggest
you
> read Oct. edition of Esquire mag, where your friend Nancy Griffin
writes
> in a similar vein. She is also a dharma student, but in the words of
the
all
> lamas is as silly as idealising all politicians. In entering the
stream
> we do not have to suspend judgement or leave our common sense at the
> temple door along with out shoes.
> Mary
Maybe you are both correct in your view. Wouldn't that be in
accordance with the
Dharma? It is difficult to know the mind of a teacher, throughout the
lineage
history(dating from the time of Buddha Shakyamuni), particularly in
the Zen and
Tibetan traditions, it is common for a teacher to manifest in a
seemingly
controversial way, in order to liberate the minds of his students. If
a teacher
were always "nicey nice," and did what was in accord with our moral/
social
systems, we might use this as self confirmation or hold fixed views.
This is
precisely what a Dharma teacher vows to uproot. It is true that we
must use
"prajna" or discriminating awareness when choosing a teacher. It would
be
foolish to follow someone simply because of a particular title. We
must explore
whether we trust this person, whether we feel a "karmic connection"
(if you
will), with he or she, before we choose the as our teacher. We should
never
slander another Buddhist Tradition, nor another teacher. That teacher,
who we
may find personally distasteful, may actually be of help to may
people. How can
we find fault in that? There is an interesting, possibly controversial
article
relating to this issue in the September issue of THE SHAMBHALA SUN. It
was
written by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche and is entitled "DISTORTION."
We, as
Buddhists might consider to keep our hearts open, and our minds as
well.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Lozang Trinlae
Tashi Delek Barry!
ba...@coventry.demon.co.uk wrote:
> ...
> Not a great one for Dharma-Gossip, but it serves a purpose, perhaps!
> ....
Ahhh, but dear Barry, that indeed is the challenge at hand. (I.e., not
to gossip [or use harsh words] but make speech beneficial)!! Where would
we be if we never took vows for fear of breaking them??? We have to step
out sometimes....
No, really, with the right respective motivations (and, if possible, a
dose of loving-kindness) I think the group can be very helpful to dharma
practice. The newer Buddhists, etc., have loads of interesting questions
and ideas that make the older Buddhists re-think things they may not
have examined very closely before or at least clarify their thoughts so
as to not give mistaken advice/comments, and the older Buddhists can do
their best to advise eachother and the newer ones, helping everyone to
avoid harboring wrong views, and also making merit at the same time.
Actually to get some idea of the "aura" of this newsgroup, it is helpful
to happen upon some others for comparison, like I did. I was looking the
other day for some kind of consumer advocacy newsgroup, so was browsing,
when I happened upon alt.discrimination. Naievely I thought it would be
the noble yearnings for righteousness of discrimination victims and
sympathizers. What I found was every and all kinds of hostilities
parading as supremacy, based on color and ethnicity, etc.
I'm not saying that the authors are sentient beings of lesser value (of
course), but insofar as cyberspace is a kind of bardo-i.e., perhaps
somewhere between the form and formless realms (but definitely a product
of the desire realm), compared to a.r.b.t. some places definitely feel
like you've gone FAR toward the hell realms. That is so interesting
because without having MET any newsgroup members, everyone interacts in
this ethereal manner (no pun intended). So in conclusion, maybe it
foreshadows a bit how we will fare when we hit the actual after-death
bardo, i.e., will we cluster and associate (and compete) for rebirths as
we do in newsgroups???
With very warm regards for user "manifestations", and prayer,
ani lozang trinlae
ba...@coventry.demon.co.uk
Lozang Trinlae <loz...@mindless.com> wrote:
>Tashi Delek Barry!
>
>ba...@coventry.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> ...
>> Not a great one for Dharma-Gossip, but it serves a purpose, perhaps!
>> ....
>
>Ahhh, but dear Barry, that indeed is the challenge at hand. (I.e., not
>to gossip [or use harsh words] but make speech beneficial)!! Where would
>we be if we never took vows for fear of breaking them??? We have to step
>out sometimes....
>
[snip :-)
I agree with you wholeheartedly!
My comment about Dharma-gossip was directed toward some of the more
*superficial* threads about people who aren't here to represent
themselves, & yes! even gossip is useful.
With respect to other newsgroups, too right! I subscribe to
alt.astrology which is a bit of a battle ground & although I don't
know all the ins & outs of it (perish the though that I'd want to
revive its brief emergence here) it seems that things have been pretty
messy in alt.philosophy.taoism recently.
You can't judge the quality of the group by its title!
Istill reckon this is one of the most beneficial groups that I know.
Has anyone any other suggestions?
Best wishes!
Barry.
Lozang Trinlae
Honorable Barry wrote:
>....
> Istill reckon this is one of the most beneficial groups that I know.
> Has anyone any other suggestions?
>
kindness CAN be found in some other groups. For example, I've found some
very warm hearted and knowledgeable folks in alt.energy.renewable and
alt.architecture.alternative who have very kindly given me multitudes of
beneficial and often expert advice on the building of retreat huts
(which is still in the planning phase). But there are also some hardcore
intense discussions I usually skip over in favor of physics stuff.
-ani lozang